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Barbary Privateers

Muslim pirates had been routinely causing trouble, even devastation, to Christian coastal areas on the European side of the Mediterranean CENTURIES BEFORE THE MORISCOS EVEN EXISTED, let alone after their expulsion. One of the reasons they were expelled was the strongly held suspicion that they were informing the Barbary privateers where and when to launch a raid. It was the devastation these raids caused that made Spaniards furious. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.75.57.15 (talk) 07:04, 12 August 2010 (UTC)

Number of expelled

In my reasearch, somewhat unrelated, I have come across the number 300,000 a few times, never 3,000,000. At this time it is estiamted that there were only 7-8 million people living in Spain, and there is no way that a nation would expel nearly half of its population, or if there did, other events in Spanish history would point to such a massive exodus indirectly, which isn't the case. If anyone disagrees, feel free to discuss.

I agree. The figure 3 million is false. 300,000 would be a more acceptable figure. Recent studies have shown that the expulsion was more of a failure than had previously been believed. Land owners refusing to follow edicts of expulsion fearing to lose their labourers, and moriscos simply moving to different regions of Spain taking up the identities of northern colonists.

Discontinuity

There is a major discontinuity between this article and Timeline of Muslim presence in Iberia. The way the Morisco are treated in the two articles you would think they were different people. Someone with better historical knowledge than myself needs to take a look and change one of the articles to bring the accounts into agreement. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Racist Term

The use of word 'Moro/Moor/Morisco' is in fact racist and is used by spanish racists when they refer to Moroccan people. Where do Moro's come from - if you really think about it?

Having lived in Spain I soon realised that the use of the word 'Moro' is in fact racist and is used by spanish racists when they refer to Moroccan people. A Moroccan man killed a Spanish man because he called him a MORO. This happened in the Spanish city were I was living at that time. Where do Moro's come from? Here's a clue (M-O-R-Occan/M-O-R-Occo) - if you really think about it why do people have to deny this when it is a fact? Every Spanish person I know do not deny this. I even have met a Spanish man who ha said that one of their ancesters are Moroccan too! The Spanish really confess that they are too proud to admit defeat by the Moroccans who so happen to belong to a culture and different religion and who so happen not to be white so to cover this up they start inventing words such as 'the moors or moors once conquered Spain'. This is not any different to the racist terms used to refer to black people and Pakistani people.

Historically, Morocco and Spain have always had a bittersweet relationship due to the very close proximity of the two countries, where they have each conquered some parts of each other's countries. During the Spainish Civil War the dictator Franco even recruited Moroccans to join the Spainish army refering them to being strong people in regards to their colonial presence before in Spain for 800-1000 years. In the last bloody conquest of Spain the Spanish forcibly converted anyone Muslim or Jewish to become Christian or they would be killed. So ironically as if in an act of revenge, soon after the re-conquest the Moroccan sultan, Moulay Ismail was responsible for enslaving around one million white europeans Most of the slaves were Spanish and just as the Spanish treated the Moroccans during the reconquest, they forced the Christian slaves to convert to Islam even though no forced conversions were made when the Moroccans were happily living together with fellow Christians and Jewish in Spain. Acquiring jobs are made difficult due to racism especially in gaining Spanish citizenship even though Spain still colonize two Northern Moroccan cities - Ceuta and Mellila! Many Spanish people were born there and have lived there without problems in regards to difference of culture and religion and celebrate Christian festivals, have their own cemeteries all on Moroccan soil with absolute no problems! In contrast to this, there are around 5 million Moroccan people presently living in Spain and who are the largest Muslim group living in Spain.To even have a Mosque as a place of worship involves a lot of bureaucracy from the local governments as well as the many racist protests held by the Spanish people as well as an ever increasing presence of Nazi Spanish movements where they grafitti on walls ' Fuera Moros' - This means 'get out Moros', aimed at the Moroccan people whose increased migration to Spain has forced these Spanish racists to come face to face with their ancestral past whether they accept it or not.

In 2006 the Andalusian government had introduced a recent Article into the law to allow any Moroccan person to acquire Spanish citizenship with ease, as they are found to be descendents of 'Moriscos' (Moroccans whose ancesters are of Moroccan and Spainish mixed descent during the time of Islamic rule in Spain). The Spanish and Moroccan Academics and historians have called for equality for the Moroccan people since 1992. Currently Morrocan people have to live and work 10 years in Spain for them to gain Spanish citizenship, and only 5 years if a Moroccan is married to a Spanish person.

The Spanish tried energetically to remove historical facts as to the origin of the Muslims who ruled in Spain between 800-1000 years and have used the word Moro to hide the fact that it was the Moroccans who conquered Spain. The word 'Moro' has been extensively used within Tourist books and brainwashed into tourists to Spain to describe the historical Islamic past of Spain without realising that the word is racist. Soon after the Spanish reconquest, Spain colonized Philippines. Once again anything non-christian was eradicated to almost all parts of the Philippines where the people were forced to change their names to Spanish names and forced to convert to Christianity or be killed. No tactic was any different to how the Spanish treated the Muslims and Jewish living in Spain during the reconquest. The Spanish worked so hard to remove any evidence of pre-colonial times before colonization. The only part of Philippines which the Spanish couldn't be bothered to colonize and covert remains an Islamic part of the south of Philippines (Mindanao), where the filipinos remain Muslim. This is the greatest evidence to suggest that filipinos were once Muslim. The Spanish even had the cheek to call muslim filipinos 'Moros' which is still used in Philppines to describe a Muslim person! If you think about it, if a 'Moro' is supposedly a person of muslim/arab descent then how come the term 'Moorish' and 'Moro' are not used at all in the Middle East to describe anything Arabic or a Arab person? 81.157.160.4 (talk) 22:25, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm not entirely sure what exactly you are trying to say in what relates the present article. I didn't see a reference to any change, a suggestion, a correction, merely a lot of opinions on the pedigree of the Spaniards and the racism inherent to several terms.

In any event the terms "Moros" ("Mouros" in Portuguese) is commonly used in all schoolbooks. It describes the Berbers and the root of the name is easy to see in "Mauritania". Is it "racist"? Well, it describes an ethnic group and in general it does so when talking about open warfare, so I guess you can think of it as "racist" if you squint the right way - just has every other word that described an ethnic reality. As such it isn't a "slander" work by origin, it is historically well-defined and saying "Fuera Moros" expresses a wish that can be viewed as "racist" but the word itself is merely a qualifier.--Bellum sine bello (talk) 01:03, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

What about "Mouriscos" on Portugal´s History?! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.22.18.69 (talk) 21:57, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

1. "Moro" comes after the latin word "maurus", as Morocco, Mauritania, etc. do.

2. Moors ruled _Granada_ nearly 800 years. In Asturias, northern Leon and northern Catalonia, from none to few years, depending on where. By 1000 aC, they had only the southern half of the Peninsula, and around 1200, only the kingdom of Granada.

3. The "last bloody conquest" the Spaniards mad, was in fact a REconquest. When the Moors invaded Iberia they did not find an empty land. Guess who were the former inhabitants.

4. The forced conversions happened sometimes, and sometimes not. The same thing is applicable to the Moor side.

5. Are you proud of your people enslaving Europeans? I must say that in medieval iberian Christian Kingdoms didn't exist such a thing as traffic of slaves. Not even for Moors.

6. You have forgotten too that before the expulsion, there were rumours that Moors were concentrating in North Africa in order to invade again Iberia, and the Moriscos sublevated, killing every christian they caught, man, woman or child, but only after castrating the men, raping the women and torturing everybody. It seems that you have forgotten too, that the Moriscos assisted the Berber and Turkish pirates as a fifth column. What do you thing the king should have done with a war in the Alpujarras were all the christians were being massacred? Maybe congratulating those Moors who were killing his people and giving them back Iberia? Hey, they were just spelled. In any other country of those times they would have been executed. And I reckon that they would been killed too in some countries of today ruled by the Sharia, and not for slaying thousands of innocents, but just for building a church.

7. Under Moor rule they were not "happily living together". Jews and Christians were Dhimmis, and there were periodical progroms. I wonder why the Jewish philosopher Maimonides had to run away from Al-Andalus, when he was living happily together with the Moors.

8. Adquiring jobs is difficult for everybody, but when you have broken illegally into a country, I guess it's a bit more. In the rest of the world, you don't get a job either, and besides you get spelled as an illegal alien. Be happy that millions of your fellow countrymen -as you have previously stated- can stay in Spain even without papers.

9. Ceuta and Melilla were already Spanish centuries before a country called Morocco even existed. They never have been Moroccoans, because they are older than Morocco itself. What makes you think then that they belong to Morocco?

10. How many churches are in Morocco?

11. Five millions? Officially there are 3.5 millions of Moroccoans in the whole Europe, so you admit that there are millions and millions of Moroccoans illegally staying in Spain. And you are so shameless to ask Spain to give them privileges for violating Spain's borders! A mosque, a shop, a church of whatever involves a lot of bureaucracy. Why do you think you are so special to skip in Spain what Spaniards, whatever their religion is, must do? And anyway, opening a church in Morocco is completely forbidden. I guess you wouldn't be happy if a bit of reciprocity is applied.

12. The Andalusian government hasn't made a right thing since it came to existence. Opening the door to people who say openly that they want to take over your land and rule over you usually is not a good idea.

13. I wonder why there were Muslims in Philippines. I thought Islam appeared thousands of kilometers far away in Arabia. I bet you whatever you want, that they were not islamized by the means of love and nice words. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.16.30.100 (talk) 20:53, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Introduction

I see several problems in the head of the article

 "A morisco (Spanish) or mourisco (Portuguese), meaning "Moor-like", was a nominally Catholic inhabitant of Spain and Portugal of Muslim heritage.
Over time the term was used in a pejorative sense applied to those nominal Catholics who were suspected of secretly practicing Islam.
Similarly, converted Jews (conversos) who secretly held to Judaism were called marranos."

Firstly, there is no translation of the word, therefore the use of "moor-like" only contributes to misunderstanding.

Secondly, there is no clear reference to the fact that they were moors converted to christianism. However, it should be clearly termed, because the historical definition of morisco is: baptised moor who remained in the Peninsula after the Christian conquest. In addition, it is a term used since the 16th century (1502), the moors not converted into christianism and living in Christian territory were called Mudéjares. Thus, it is clear that only when the Christians forced them to conversion (1502) they received this name.

Thirdly, the term was used both for those who converted voluntarily and those who were compelled to.

Finally, I see absolutely no need to talk about the converted Jews. If any it should be included in the text. But actually I don't see the point of the reference nor the fact that this article is part of the WikiProject: Judaism. The jews were expelled in 1492, and the moriscos come to existence in the 1502 (as a group termed like that). Apart from being both in the Iberian Peninsula I see no other connexion. --Grimelhausen (talk) 20:45, 22 September 2009 (UTC) (I had edited it for clearness, hope it is understandable)

On last point an opinion only; I find it helpful to see briefest mention of on page (and reverse), for a link to quickly refer to each. They were both as I understand the term, they shared centuries of interdependence, and then a mutual suffering connexion as victims of the and ever-growing intolerance. That actions upon them in that era are separated by a decade does not need to preclude a link. The connexion can be seen as far more than "on the Iberian Peninsula at the same time." Thanks---Look2See1 (talk) 02:14, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Quinquis

I removed the following speculative trash:

"Scholars have suggested that the Mercheros (also Quinquis), a group of nomadic tinkers traditionally based in the northern half of Spain, may have had their origin among surviving Moriscos."

The older members of my family remember the "Quinquis" well. Most were quite pale or even very pale and quite a few were blonde and blue eyed. They were solidly, unmistakably of ancient European ancestry. There is no way, as a group, they were largely of Morisco descent, regardless of what "some scholars" may "think", that is, speculate.Provocateur (talk) 03:12, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Source

Hi, I would like to know, why , according to The Ogre, Collective work under the direction of Louis Cardaillac, Les Morisques et l'inquisition, Publisud, 1990, preface of the book cover is not an acceptable source ?!--Morisco (talk) 13:31, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

It may be an acceptable source, but we have no means of knowing if the statement you want to include (that the moriscos were forcebly converted) is backed up or nor by that source since it is not available. The Ogre (talk) 11:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Mind you, I'm not saying the moriscos were not forcebly converted! I know many were - but it dependes on the exact historical moment (for instance, before or after the expulsion, etc.). The question here, besides that of a simplistic depiction of such a complex and durable social phenomenon, is one of proper available (ex. online), published and credible academic sources. Or at least provide a citation (checkable one, please) that states exactly what you mean. Thank you. The Ogre (talk) 11:40, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello, it does not depend of the exact historical moment, in 1502, all the muslims (Moriscos) were forced to convert, they did not have the choice.

Les Morisques et l'inquisition is a very serious book, a work of Louis Cardaillac, Juan Aranda Doncel, Rafael Benitez Sachez Blanco, Raphael Carrasco, Jaime Contreras, Monique Coste, Jean-Pierre Dedieu, Mikel de Elpalza, Julio Fernandez Nieva, Pau Ferrer, Jacqueline Fournel-Guerin, Abd el Hakim Gafsi, Mercedes Garcia-Arenal, Ricardo Garcia Carcel, Anita Gonzalez, José Martinez Millan, Juan Bautista Vilar, Bernard Vincent.

« Les Morisques. Des musulmans espagnols convertis de force au christianisme au début du XVI siècle. L'Église et l'État luttérent pour les assimiler et en faire des sujets comme les autres. Ils refusèrent. Le peuple, d'ailleurs, les rejetait. Entre 1609 et 1614, on les chassa. Trois cent mille, en quelques mois, furent déportés principalement en Afrique du Nord.

L'Inquisition. Le tribunal de la foi, le bras armé de l'Église, chargé d'assurer l'unité idéologique du royaume. Elle fut l'un des grands acteurs de la répression. Les morisques la haïssent, car elle symbolisait, pour eux, l'oppression.

C'est le jeu complexe des rapports entre oppresseurs et opprimés qu'étudie cet ouvrage, les buchers, mais aussi les accords, les trêves, les compromis, les contrepoint entre les prétentions centralisatrices d'une institution commune à toute la monarchie et la diversité des situations locales.

Une équipe de chercheurs espagnols, français et tunisiens a été rassemblée par Louis Cardaillac pour aborder le problème sous toutes ses facettes à partir d'une documentation presque entièrement nouvelle.

L'histoire des morisques mérite d'être connue. Non seulement pour le rôle qu'elle joue dans la pensée des intellectuels musulmans contemporains, mais aussi pour l'actualité des problèmes qu'elle soulève. »

Traduction of the first paragraph:«  The Moriscos. Spanish Muslims forcibly converted to Christianity in the early sixteenth century. The church and state struggled to assimilate them and turn them into subjects like the others. They refused. The people, moreover, rejected them. Between 1609 and 1614, they were driven. Three hundred thousand in a few months, were deported mainly in North Africa. »

And if you want to check, I can scan the page.--Morisco (talk) 19:52, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello. You do not need to translate just for me. I'm fluent in French. And the quotation you make (I presume from the back cover presentation of the book) is not one of the best one - you should try to find a proper inside quotation. Regarding the quotation and your statements, they are somewhat contradictory - In fact IT DOES depend on historical context, since, by your own admission, before 1502 moriscos were NOT forcebly convert (even if the pressure to do so was huge), and the quotation only refers Spain, not Portugal. You see, this article is about the moriscos both in Spain and Portugal, before and after the conversions/expulsions. That is why you can not say, in the intro, that moriscos were plain and simply forcebly converted. Of course you may say that over time, first in Portugal (in 1496, in fact, when jews and moriscos were forced to convert or leave, even if the Portuguese Inquisition was only introduced in 1536), then in Spain, moriscos were forced to convert to catholicism, even if many continued to be islamic practionners secretly and were continuously surveilled and persecuted by the Inquisition (wich lead to most leaving or even being expelled). The Ogre (talk) 14:09, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Moriscos in Portugal

This article lacks the whole situation of the Mouriscos in Portugal! The Ogre (talk) 14:19, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Genetic impact

The section about the genetic impact requires expansion. I've included some relevant material from Genetic history of the Iberian Peninsula as to represent all sides of the story, since not all studies concluded the same. I don't know why it was deleted since nothing prevent copy/paste of relevant material from other articles, Misplaced Pages articles are public domain. Tachfin (talk) 16:22, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

You don't copy & paste contents from a page to another page in Misplaced Pages. That is called unnecessary duplication of content. Nobody except you does that. Contents should be put in the page where they are more meaningful. The other pages should just have a link to that page. That is plain common sense. Please don't insist in including redundant contents here or anywhere else. Jotamar (talk) 18:14, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

There is nothing in Misplaced Pages policy that supports what you stated. There is no redundancy. If you have other objections to the inclusions of that material please voice them the one you've just stated is bogus. Tachfin (talk) 18:35, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Response to Third Opinion Request:

Disclaimers: I am responding to a third opinion request made at WP:3O. I have made no previous edits on Morisco and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process (FAQ) is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes. Third opinions are not tiebreakers and should not be "counted" in determining whether or not consensus has been reached. My personal standards for issuing third opinions can be viewed here.

Opinion: Mere copying from one article to another is not, alone, a reason for deletion of material. "Unnecessary duplication of material" is one of the reasons to merge articles, but to argue that mere copying satisfies that standard makes the word "unnecessary" meaningless. (And even that begs the question of whether these articles would be candidates for merger.) I would note, however, that Misplaced Pages articles are not in the public domain and that copying material from one article to another without following the procedures described in the Copying within Misplaced Pages rule creates a violation of Misplaced Pages copyright policy. As is set out in the Repairing insufficient attribution section of that rule, the remedy for that violation is not, however, removal of the copied material, but is instead providing the proper attribution, which Tachfin ought to cure. Should Tachfin fail to do so, then Jotamar should provide the attribution rather than delete the material. The question of the general appropriateness of the material for this article is not yet part of this dispute, but must be decided by consensus unless some other policy requires its removal. I express no opinion upon that issue, except to note that a serious, good-faith attempt to come to agreement about it ought to be made through discussion here on this talk page before the matter is brought back to the Third Opinion project or other dispute resolution.

What's next: Once you've considered this opinion click here to see what happens next.—TransporterMan (TALK) 13:38, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Note that I have provided attribution for the copied materiel in the edit summary of this edit as per WP:COPYWITHIN as well as here on the talk page. Though only a part was copied. Tachfin (talk) 14:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

First, I should mention that I was considering myself asking for a 3rd opinion. I'm certainly not happy with that opinion: one thing is copying a sentence or a reference (I often do that) and a completely different thing is copying whole paragraphs, and very complex ones at that. Eventually, the paragraphs will be changed by different editors and the page of origin and this one will come to contradict each other. I think there should be a Misplaced Pages guideline about this. I think the main reason why it doesn't exist is because most editors never do such massive copying. In fact, in almost six years in Misplaced Pages, Tachfin is the first editor I meet who does that. Jotamar (talk) 13:40, 4 November 2011 (UTC)

References added for expulsion section

Sorry but this is chaos. No apparent relationship to the relevant topic, it is imprecise and blur. Just pinpoint the exact argument, it does provide a page, so specify it, and transfer the idea in the article as close to the text as possible. Iñaki LL (talk) 19:30, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

You don't seem to be used to reading scientific papers, or citing them. Of course they are difficult to understand. It is not usual to cite them by giving page numbers, but citing the whole paper, which will have an abstract. The text refers to multiple studies, so you should expect a number to be cited. If you don't think the issue is "relevant", then remove the whole matter - both sides of the argument. The text is not "chaos", and the references are all too precise - it is merely difficult to follow up the references, but that goes with the subject matter. You have now twice reverted different editors to remove referenced material with only the flimsiest of justifications. If you can't provide better arguments I will put the material back, and I suggest you don't try to remove it again. Johnbod (talk) 20:10, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

First of all, congratulations for the badges. Now coming down to the topic, I beg you pardon? Nor me neither anyone gets to understand what it is talking about that is relevant to the statement provided, and I urge not to mislead anyone with some twisted logic or gibberish. I have written quite a lot on this topic and I know what we are dealing with.

Also, stick to the form, not to the content. The first Mr. Dwight's reference seems to be clear and straightforward for what I can gather in another previous comment on that reference. The citing style of the second looks obscure, sounds obscure, the argument claimed is nowhere to be found..., well, because it is just that, absent, vague and obscure. I also urge 2.137.191.198 to participate, since he was doing your very same point, and clarify it. Iñaki LL (talk) 20:50, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

My two cents on the matter: The statement is precise and more than well sourced so the conflict is evidently based on the conflicting opinion on whether moriscos were of christian iberian origin or not. Considering that:

• The Dwight reference claiming that they were "as iberian as their christian neighbors" is a weak source with a rhetorical statement aiming to highlight the injustice in the expulsion rather than based on any scientific or historical analysis of the matter per se.
• That the eight centuries of muslim rule in iberia were not the fruit of an initial conquest but of centuries of colonization and numerous mass invasions from north africa, notably the almohads and the almoravids.
• That all genetic studies of iberian populations over the past 10 years point to unusually high levels of recent north african ancestry particularly in areas of muslim rule and in areas of the kingdom of Castile where moriscos were known to have been displaced after the revolt of the Alpujarras. That such ancestry drops to levels close to zero in areas which never had significant Morisco populations such as the Basque Country and Catalonia and is surprisingly low in areas where historical studies show very thorough and merciless deportation such as the Kingdom of Valencia.
• That genetic studies of populations in northern morocco show no significant european ancestry which would be expected in areas where moriscos supposedly settled en masse after the expulsion. European admixture is minimal in Tetuan, Tangiers and similar towns in northern morocco.
• That moriscos in north africa are not an unknown mass of millions of people but families who are well aware of their origins and often conserve Spanish surnames. In Rabat they are still highly influential families.

Then it is very difficult to categorically state that moriscos were primarily of European origin, particularly considering endogamic muslim practices. Such a statment should at least be qualified by the mass of sources pointing to the contrary. In fact, based on all recent sources, it would be easier to cast doubt on the success of the expulsion particularly in the Kingdom of Castile and to lend credence to the idea of slow assimilation of large numbers of already nominally catholic moriscos in the wider old christian population as is argued by recent studies already cited in the article.

Regarding sources on the contentious statement, since there are dozens which can be used, perhaps using the clearest and "least obscure" among the body of genetic studies pointing to the same thing can be selected, instead of having so many of them. I propose this one http://www.pnas.org/content/110/29/11791.full.pdf+html 2.137.191.198 (talk) 23:28, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

That is still irrelevant per WP:SYNTH : Genetics do not contradict the previous statement, I also believe that Genetics are off-topic for these issues, the sole study that would be relevant is that on these Families in Morocco that keep their Morisco identity and their link to the genetic pool of modern Spain/Portugal ; unfortunately these studies do not yet exist, thus conforting my first statement : current Genetics' studies are off-topic, and WP:OVERCITE won't change anything to that, as long as all cited refs are actually off-topic. --Omar-toons (talk) 00:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Sadly no one seems to agree with you. I hesitate to ask, but why is genetics "off-topic" in relation to a statement about ethnicity? Johnbod (talk) 03:59, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree with Omar-toons, still it is not even a matter of content, the way of presenting the information is obscure, full of uncertainty, and not a proper citation. The reader is to have the possibility to check the information straight on the source, as per WP:CITEHOW and WP:INTEGRITY. If you are to check it, you only find loads of pages with figures and hyper-specialized details with an unknown link to the matter in question, and in the article, Johnbod's or the IP's POV of what that would mean, according to their views. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:25, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't have a POV, nor much interest in the subject, nor a history of blocks for edit-warring in this area. But I do know what a citation to a scientific paper is supposed to look like. Johnbod (talk) 14:11, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Nonsense, clarity is always an overriding concern in any citing style. Furthermore, the above cited WP:SYNTH applies. By the way, a purpose-specific account seems to have been created to revert the edit while this is being discussed. It will be reverted when the discussion is finished. (talk) 14:57, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Iñaki, which purpose specific account has been created? The citations are clear and as per wikipedia citation policy. All sources link directly to an abstract which is easy to understand by anyone with a reasonable fluency in English. Your arguments are simply nonsensical. Evidently, population genetics is very much relevant to a weak source which erroneously yet categorically states that Moriscos had little to no north african ancestry. It is statement which is just plain wrong as proven by population genetics. There is no way around it. 2.137.191.198 (talk) 15:54, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Omar-toons I think I understand what bothers you about this issue. The point is not to deny Moriscos had spanish descent. Obviously they did and those morisco families in morocco such as your own do as well. They were in every sense Spaniards. The issue is that the statement which is being pushed here states as categorical fact something which is not true. That all people of berber or arab ethnicity were fully purged from Spain upon conquest and that those muslims who remained as Moriscos between 1492 and 1604 were somehow "clean" and "pure" europeans who had been duped into following the religion of former "oppressors". An argument which beyond being obviously wrong (over 10% of modern day Spaniards have berber ancestry and muslims were a doomed minority long before 1604), also makes me uncomfortable for its racist connotations, being reminiscent of the old Spanish obsession with "limpieza de sangre". I may be making assumptions but what you don't agree with is the portrayal of moriscos as "alien" or foreign elements. Am I correct? 2.137.191.198 (talk) 16:36, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Do pinpoint the page and the exact statement. Disruptive editing is taking place now, that is the main concern now. Iñaki LL (talk) 21:52, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

A scientific question is at at issue here; the movie documentary referenced is not an adequate source to cite for such a contentious and even radical proposition concerning genetics as: "The huge majority of the people that were being expelled, by blood, by DNA if you will, may have been as Iberian as their Christian cousins in the North." Dwight Reynolds' expertise is not in genetics or even science, it is in religion and music, which does not remotely make him an authority to cite for this subject. You need to find a better source for this dubious assertion. Carlstak (talk) 14:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Iñaki, I've made my point here, the consensus here as far as I can see, is against your change, so you are edit-warring. Carlstak (talk) 14:25, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

• This is becoming laughable. A dubious remark in an inappropriate source is kept by reversions, and a raft of academic papers with contrary evidence are removed by two local editors with strong POVs, who won't address arguments other than with bluster. If it can't be sorted soon an RFC may be needed. Johnbod (talk) 14:27, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Quite right. Two intransigent editors have made this discussion a farce. They are reverting well-sourced statements to be replaced by exceedingly dubious assertions made by a non-expert on the subject, with a laughably inadequate source to boot. We need an RFC. Carlstak (talk) 21:17, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

For a start, highly contentious, if not intelligence defiant, is making Manichean assumptions of what coexistence was at that time (Moorish vs Christian, European vs African, absolute nonsense, an extremely poor insight). The historian leading the documentary is perfectly fit for it for what I have read on her skills. As for the genetics article, WP:SYNTH applies, nothing is stated related to the conclusion added to the article, but if there is anything like that, pinpoint it, otherwise it will be considered original research and removed. By the way, have more respect to editors by not changing while something is being discussed, especially now that ghostly Usernames have risen up to alter the text. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:29, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

A puzzling argument. Dwight would seem to be the one making "Manichean assumptions" to me. Johnbod (talk) 14:38, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Reynolds is a historian, his opinion has to be kept.

Oh and, I see Carlstak saying that there's no consensus... but a consensus for what? I see that Reynolds' opinion was there before the edit-war actually started, then the new consensus to reach should be about its removal, and it seems that there's no consensus to remove it. Things work that way: consensus should be reached before editing, per WP:BOLD. --Omar-toons (talk) 14:46, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Omar-toons, you are misquoting me egregiously. I said, addressing Iñaki, "the consensus here as far as I can see, is against your change." Carlstak (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Edits conflicts... Comments a bit too fast. For Johnbod: ??? Sorry, if you know what it means, the clear-cut division of ethnic groups and religions and their purity have been claims of European Manichean Catholicists for ages (evil vs good, civilized vs Barbarians, etc.), e.g. in the Spanish dictatorship. Dwight speaks of a realistic mixture, conversion, and re-conversions of peoples, that is nothing Manichean but the opposite.

Your calling inappropriate a straigthforward statement, Dwight's one on the expulsion, is hardly tenable, especially when compared to the unrelated sources on genetics, connection nowhere to be found, but for your or others conclusion. Still it remains POV conclusions, and not what the sources state. WP policies are clear. However, pinpoint the exact statement (argument) to be found on the sources, I will be fine with it, discussion over. No problem. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:55, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

There is an obvious problem of attitude: No change can be made until consensus is built, it is not enough to make your point. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:58, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

(Edit conflict)

For information: the "Dwight Reynolds" ref was added on Sept. 4th 2011 and remained stable for more than 3 years (then making a consensus), if it has to be removed ones should seek for a new consensus (not the opposite), and there is NO consensus right now, but only an opinion supported by 3 contributors vs. a second opinion supported by 2, and this is not WP:CONSENSUS but only WP:VOTE.

In the other hand, Dwight Reynolds (who is a historian, no matter what people think) doesn't talk about genetics but about "blood lignages", obviously because the "Limpienza de Sangre" was the main reason invoqued bu the Spanish during the Expulsion. Talking about "DNA" is a way to explain, to generalize, not the main subject. Oh and, I forgot: DNA has nothing to do here as long as (as I said before) there's no DNA study on Morico descendants. --Omar-toons (talk) 15:07, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

And, unlike what has been stated by Carlstak, Dwight Reynolds has not "published scholarly works only on medieval Andalusi music" but he also published many works on litterature and interaction between different communities in medieval Iberia, thus his opinion matters. --Omar-toons (talk) 15:19, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Show us links to these published works by Reynolds that you mention, Omar-toons. These assertions by Reynolds are unsupported by any other authoritative sources that I can find, and it doesn't matter how long the reference has been in the article if it is unsupportable. You and Iñaki are being intransigent here, and your command of English is lacking, making your arguments incoherent. Carlstak (talk) 21:06, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there are two refs (Hughes and Reynolds) for the same statement: that "Moriscos weren't of Arab/Berber descent but mainly Iberian (Muladi)".

An alternative: can we keep Hughes and replace Reynolds by Chejne? (2 refs being enough per WP:OVERCITE)?

--Omar-toons (talk) 01:23, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

We are at a resolution stage. The matter discussed is on form, discussion on content leads us nowhere, and gives rise to speculation. The video is good until a clear and specific allegation proves the opposite, other than that it is bla-bla-bla. Add whatever is relevant and accurate, with reference to a specific statement cited on the source. Carlstak or whatever editor name happens to be each moment, as Omar-toons pointed, the video reference was settled when you added to the fire by meddling on it. Your level of aggression against the other editors increases along with your lack of arguments grows. Iñaki LL (talk) 08:31, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

My "level of aggression"? This is surreal coming from you, Iñaki, the one throwing false accusations around. How dare you insinuate that I am using sockpuppets. I see you have added my name to the list of suspected sockpuppets; this is a false claim based on zero evidence, as any admin can quickly see. Shame on you for this disgusting behavior. You "discredit" yourself with such laughably inept tactics, and you should be banned for it. Carlstak (talk) 17:03, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Carlstak, Johnbod: Another valid source relevant to this conflict to be included: , Could either of you incorporate in relevant section? 08:45, 26 February 2015 (UTC)Asilah1981 (talk)

Yes, that is useful, especially as it specifically addresses the Moriscos. I won't have time to add anything for a few days, and there doesn't seem much point while the edit-warriors are still reverting all changes on sight. Johnbod (talk) 14:25, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree this is useful, as Johnbod says. I will wait till the dust has settled and the edit-warriors are behaving, which may have to be enforced with sanctions (one hopes). Carlstak (talk) 19:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Iñaki LL Please desist from removing sources and sourced statements from this article. I agree with Carlstak and Johnbod that for now this must be taken to RFC, even if no coherent arguments have been given beyond what is clearly your displeasure with the content of these sources. Otherwise, additional measures should be taken in the face of such disruptive behavior.Asilah1981 (talk) 12:53, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I won't say anything that is apparent in this section and that can be naturally gathered from your destructive intervention here and the article history, you discredit yourself by pushing your POV through, skipping all collaboration and WP rules and policies, you are out of control, and you are wasting my time, and that of other good editors. I have posted this also on your talk page. I have not time to go through your edits, but you (what username really should I address?) overtly failed to engage in dispute resolution, and have bulldozed your views. Any original research by WP:NOR will be removed. By the way, Johnbod, your attitude speaks volumes, very sad. Iñaki LL (talk) 14:52, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Iñaki LL you can address me on this user name since it is my only account. As stated, an RFC is required, since there doesn't seem to be any space for rational discussion. All I ask is the same as other editors are asking of you. Please don't remove relevant sources from the article without a good reason to do so. On my side, you are welcome to include the Reynolds source into the relevant sentence, even though I agree it is an extremely weak source and not worthy of special attention (I would remove it altogether, but am willing to agree to it staying for the sake of consensus). Asilah1981 (talk) 15:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello, Johnbod,

Did you read the "Adams" ref? It does absolutely not address Morisos' genetics, thus it does not contradict the "Muladi origin of the majority of Moriscos" as supported by historians.

Regards,

--Omar-toons (talk) 15:51, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Omar-toons the sources refer specifically to Moriscos and go as far as explain how the 1571 dispersion of moriscos from granada has affected geographic distribution of North African haplotypes.

Please do not delete sources until after an RFC has clarified the matter, it is now bordering vandalism of the article. You are welcome to add any sources you feel are relevant.Asilah1981 (talk) 15:55, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Question: does it contradict the "Muladi origin of the majority of Moriscos"?

Answer: No.

Then: off-topic/WP:OR.

--Omar-toons (talk) 16:00, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Are you serious Omar-toons?? I can only conclude bad faith and a refusal to read the sources you are so avidly deleting. Will keep this page on my watch list and periodically check for your vandalism. Asilah1981 (talk) 16:09, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

First, thanks to read WP:POINT.

Then, and because you have to justify the information that you want to put in the article (and not the opposite), could you please tell us, for each reference you give, the page where it is stated that Moriscos weren't mainly of Muladi descent?

Thanks in advance.

--Omar-toons (talk) 16:13, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't really have time for this but just from the first source I will quote directly for you: The most striking division in North African ancestry proportions is between the western half of the peninsula, where the proportion is relatively high, to the eastern half, where it is relatively low (Figure 4). This distribution could reflect genetic drift, as well as the history of enforced relocations and expulsion of moriscos. The entire large community of moriscos in Granada was relocated northward and westward following the war of 1567–1571.23 In addition, the final expulsion of moriscos, ordered by Philip III and beginning in1609, was highly effective in some regions of Spain, including Valencia and Western Andalucia, but less so in Galicia and Extremadura, where the population was more dispersed and integrated.

The North African descent of moriscos is a given and population genetics traces their historical movements. It is demonstrated scientifically by now. There is this source which discuss this but there are many others scientific studies, Omar-toons, all of them discussing morisco north african genetic markers as a given. Please can you drop this and move on to something else. The sources are there, they are undeniable and you can't just censor them. Asilah1981 (talk) 16:36, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

Look at the last sentence in the abstract, Omar-toons, it concludes that North African genetic markers in Iberia are not due to muslim rule in generally but are SPECIFICALLY morisco and the result of Morisco Population movements. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668061/ Asilah1981 (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

There is a sockpuppet investigation going on now, that has activated somewhat inadvertently, since evidence went astray in the process. I won't even check Asilah1981's last comment. Do state on the article what the source says, and that is all. Original investigation will be removed immediately. Iñaki LL (talk) 23:27, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

The "Am J Hum Genet. 2008 Dec 12; 83(6): 725–736" (Adams) ref still does not contradict the statement that "the majority of Moriscos descended from Muladis", it only attributes the high % of some haplogroups to Moriscos.

Let's play maths and logics:

Let's say that in a region X, there is 5% of North-African haplogroups ;

What does the "Adams" source say? That these 5% are mainly because of Morisco, Muladi and Mudejar presence ;

Now, let's say that, in this region, 12% of inhabitants are of Morisco descent (in the beginning of the 16th century all Mudejars (including those of Muladi origin) became Moriscos), that gives 7% of non-NorAf haplogroups, right? Ok, let's continue ;

Does the "Adams" source contradict that? Absolutely not, but it does not support your affirmation, that Moriscos were not mainly of Muladi descent.

If you have trouble understanding that then please read WP:SYNTH.

--Omar-toons (talk) 00:09, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

Moriscas

The section seems pretty random, devoid of meaningful information and pointless. I suggest it is removed and, if required, its sparse content incorporated elsewhere.2.137.191.198 (talk) 23:41, 23 February 2015 (UTC)

I fully agree... --Omar-toons (talk) 00:15, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Done. 2.137.191.198 (talk) 16:13, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

Source missing

"While the descendants of those Moriscos who fled to North Africa have remained strongly aware and proud of their andalusi roots, the Moriscos' identity as a community was wiped out in Spain"

Omar-toons Since you are moroccan of andalusi descent yourself, could you find an adequate source for this statement? ana ma9dertch nel9aha...2.137.191.198 (talk) 16:12, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

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