Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 18:20, 1 March 2015

Jimbo welcomes your comments and updates. He holds the founder's seat on the Wikimedia Foundation's Board of Trustees. The three trustees elected as community representatives until July 2015 are Sj, Phoebe, and Raystorm. The Wikimedia Foundation Senior Community Advocate is Maggie Dennis.

This is Jimbo Wales's talk page, where you can send them messages and comments.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed

Archives: Index, Index, A, B, C, D, E, F, G, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71, 72, 73, 74, 75, 76, 77, 78, 79, 80, 81, 82, 83, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 95, 96, 97, 98, 99, 100, 101, 102, 103, 104, 105, 106, 107, 108, 109, 110, 111, 112, 113, 114, 115, 116, 117, 118, 119, 120, 121, 122, 123, 124, 125, 126, 127, 128, 129, 130, 131, 132, 133, 134, 135, 136, 137, 138, 139, 140, 141, 142, 143, 144, 145, 146, 147, 148, 149, 150, 151, 152, 153, 154, 155, 156, 157, 158, 159, 160, 161, 162, 163, 164, 165, 166, 167, 168, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 175, 176, 177, 178, 179, 180, 181, 182, 183, 184, 185, 186, 187, 188, 189, 190, 191, 192, 193, 194, 195, 196, 197, 198, 199, 200, 201, 202, 203, 204, 205, 206, 207, 208, 209, 210, 211, 212, 213, 214, 215, 216, 217, 218, 219, 220, 221, 222, 223, 224, 225, 226, 227, 228, 229, 230, 231, 232, 233, 234, 235, 236, 237, 238, 239, 240, 241, 242, 243, 244, 245, 246, 247, 248, 249, 250, 251, 252Auto-archiving period: 1 day

This user talk page might be watched by friendly talk page stalkers, which means that someone other than me might reply to your query. Their input is welcome and their help with messages that I cannot reply to quickly is appreciated.

Archives

Index –index– October 28, 2001 – April 12, 2004 April 16, 2004 – August 23, 2004 August 28, 2004 – December 8, 2004 December 9, 2004 – March 23, 2005 March 23, 2005 – July 24, 2005 July 26, 2005 – September 9, 2005 September 9, 2005 – September 24, 2005 September – December 2005 January 2006 January – February 2006 February 2006 February 2006, cont. March 2006 April 2006 – late May 2006 May 24 – July 2006 July 2006 – August 2006 August 2006 Most of September 2006 Late September 2006 – Early November 2006 Most of November 2006 Late November 2006 – December 8, 2006 December 9, 2006 – Mid January 2007 From December 22, 2006 blanking Mid January 2007 – Mid February 2007 Mid February 2007– Feb 25, 2007 From March 2, 2007 blanking March 2–5, 2007 March 5–11, 2007 March 11 – April 3, 2007 April 2 – May 2, 2007 May 3 – June 7, 2007 June 9 – July 4, 2007 July 13 – August 17, 2007 August 17 – September 11, 2007 September 14 – October 7, 2007 October 28 – December 1, 2007 December 2 – December 16, 2007 December 15 – January 4, 2008 January 4 – January 30, 2008 January 30 – February 28, 2008 February 28 – March 11, 2008 March 9 – April 18, 2008 April 18 – May 30, 2008 May 30 – July 27, 2008 July 26 – October 4, 2008 October 4 – November 12, 2008 November 10 – December 10, 2008 December 5 – December 25, 2008 December 25 – January 16, 2009 January 15 – January 27, 2009 January 26 – February 10, 2009 February 8 – March 18, 2009 March 18 – May 6, 2009 May 5 – June 9, 2009 June 10 – July 11, 2009 July 12 – August 25, 2009 August 26 – October 3, 2009 October 4 – November 20, 2009 November 20 – December 21, 2009 December 22, 2009 – January 25, 2010 January 22, 2010 – February 22, 2010 February 22, 2010 – March 17, 2010 March 17, 2010 – April 9, 2010 April 11, 2010 – April 24, 2010 April 23, 2010 – May 12, 2010 May 10, 2010 – June 4, 2010 June 4, 2010 – June 26, 2010 June 26, 2010 – July 22, 2010 July 22, 2010 – August 23, 2010 August 4, 2010 – August 28, 2010 August 28, 2010 – September 14, 2010 September 13, 2010 – October 6, 2010 October 6, 2010 – November 8, 2010 November 8, 2010 – November 21, 2010 November 21, 2010 – December 6, 2010 December 6, 2010 – December 22, 2010 December 21, 2010 – January 17, 2011 January 16, 2011 – February 10, 2011 February 6, 2011 – March 19, 2011 March 16, 2011 – March 26, 2011 March 26, 2011 – April 22, 2011 April 22, 2011 – May 16, 2011 May 17, 2011 – June 9, 2011 June 10, 2011 – July 1, 2011 July 1, 2011 – July 15, 2011 July 16, 2011 – July 26, 2011 July 26, 2011 – August 15, 2011 August 14, 2011 – August 23, 2011 August 21, 2011 – August 31, 2011 August 30, 2011 – September 7, 2011 September 4, 2011 – September 25, 2011 September 26, 2011 – October 19, 2011 October 16, 2011 – November 5, 2011 November 4, 2011 – November 12, 2011 November 11, 2011 – November 24, 2011 November 24, 2011 – December 6, 2011 December 3, 2011 – December 14, 2011 December 10, 2011 – December 16, 2011 (RFC about the Stop Online Piracy Act) December 15, 2011 – December 30, 2011 December 27, 2011 – January 9, 2012 January 9, 2012 – January 18, 2012 January 17, 2012 – January 30, 2012 January 28, 2012 – February 12, 2012 February 7, 2012 – February 25, 2012 February 19, 2012 – March 4, 2012 February 27, 2012 – March 18, 2012 March 17, 2012 – April 2, 2012 March 31, 2012 – April 13, 2012 April 12, 2012 – April 18, 2012 April 18, 2012 – April 26, 2012 April 26, 2012 – May 6, 2012 May 2, 2012 – May 22, 2012 May 19, 2012 – June 9, 2012 June 4, 2012 – June 20, 2012 June 18, 2012 – June 28, 2012 June 26, 2012 – July 12, 2012 July 3, 2012 – July 22, 2012 July 19, 2012 – July 29, 2012 July 25, 2012 – August 9, 2012 August 7, 2012 – August 30, 2012 August 29, 2012 – September 13, 2012 September 13, 2012 – September 27, 2012 September 26, 2012 – October 5, 2012 September 24, 2012 – October 20, 2012 October 9, 2012 – October 31, 2012 October 29, 2012 – November 19, 2012 November 17, 2012 – December 5, 2012 December 2–15, 2012 December 15–28, 2012 December 24, 2012 – January 12, 2013 January 13–31, 2013 February 1–10, 2013 February 11–28, 2013 March 1–16, 2013 March 17–27, 2013 March 28 – April 6, 2013 April 6–19, 2013 April 19 – May 3, 2013 April 25 – May 8, 2013 May 6–19, 2013 May 18–30, 2013 May 27 – June 16, 2013 June 17–30, 2013 June 27 – July 30, 2013 July 31 – August 4, 2013 August 4–12, 2013 August 13–27, 2013 August 28 – September 4, 2013 September 5–10, 2013 September 11–22, 2013 September 24 – October 6, 2013 October 7–16, 2013 October 17–27, 2103 October 28 – November 6, 2013 November 7–19, 2013 November 20–27, 2013 November 28 – December 5, 2013 December 6–24, 2013 December 25–30, 2013 December 31, 2013 – January 14, 2014 January 15–24, 2014 January 25–29, 2014 January 30 – February 10, 2014 Archives not yet dated: 157 158 159 160 161 162 163 164 165 166 167 168 169 170 171 172 173 174 175 176 177 178 179 180 181 182 183 This manual archive index may be out of date. Future archives: 184 185 186

This page has archives. Sections older than 24 hours may be automatically archived by ClueBot III when more than 2 sections are present.

Village pumps

policy

tech

proposals

idea lab

WMF

misc

• Refining the administrator elections process
• Blocks for promotional activity outside of mainspace
• Voluntary RfAs after resignation
• Proposed rewrite of WP:BITE
• LLM/chatbot comments in discussions

• view
• edit
• history
• watch
• archive
• talk
• purge

A suggestion for attracting and keeping female editors

Hey Jimbo, have you seen the Misplaced Pages article on cleavage? The one that the disambiguation page Cleavage decribes as "partial exposure of the separation between a woman's breasts"? No, not Decolletage, that's a different article about the same thing. The one I'm writing about here is Cleavage (breasts). People have been arguing lately about the number of images on that article. Right now there are 19 images to illustrate this very simple concept, but that number changes daily.

How do you think female readers will react when they see the sections called "pathology" and "treatment"? Let's ignore the fact that part of it is a word for word copy from the sources. The article has gone from talking about the social aspects of cleavage (and let's ignore the fact that this is already covered in decolletage) to talking about "cleavage wrinkles" as a condition that needs treatment. It is misplaced, and worse, medicalizes a common and completely normal effect of aging on women. And I won't even mention the absolutely awful Intermammary cleft, which is a totally unecessary content fork (with special added nonsense). Or the ridiculous Cleavage enhancement article which seems to be a how-to guide for transvestite fetishists.

If you want to attract and keep female editors, start cleaning up these awful messes that result from letting pervy creeps turn anatomical articles into their personal image galleries. Get rid of the plastic surgery linkfarms. Take hard line with editors who want to push their own odd views of what women should do with their breasts. In other words, make all of these kind of articles seem like they belong in an encyclopedia instead of a Tumblr site. Perhaps if women see themselves reflected by Misplaced Pages they might start editing as well as reading. If they see Misplaced Pages articles like Cleavage (breasts) is now, they will wisely stay far far away. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 23:54, 27 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for somebody to tell me that camel toe is just an April Fool's joke gone terribly wrong. Carrite (talk) 00:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy to delete or stubbify such articles, but it probably wouldn't end well if anyone started to do so without general consensus about them. I'd certainly support having some debate about their appropriateness or what is appropriate content for them. Metamagician3000 (talk) 06:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Metamagcian3000, the problem here is that editors are looking for "general consensus" instead of showing editorial oversight. Right now, there's a discussion about a table in the article Cleavage (breasts) featuring images of other types of partial breast exposure including "bottom cleavage". Sorry to pick on that article again, but it serves to make my point. I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. What new female editor wants to subject herself to that? There was a recent discussion about the inclusion of an autotuned audio file in Bhutanese passport that some people considered racist. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. If Misplaced Pages wants women to participate as editors, then Misplaced Pages needs to rein in the editors who insist on acting like little boys. Some people are made of plastic (talk) 14:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure you can find editors to argue endlessly that this table of pictures should remain in the article, which is part of the problem. People shouldn't be able to argue policy or appropriateness of images if someone removes them. Got'cha. They should just be entirely removed, no images at all--after all, Misplaced Pages is censored I'm sure. I'm sure someone will suggest that "general consensus" worked in this instance, but really it was the imposition of indefinite article protection. You saw a content dispute on Misplaced Pages, you lost in terms of consensus and all of a sudden, instead of being considered the 'consensus' of editors, it's 'indefinite article protection'. How many articles or content disputes have gone in your favor that you reverse this standard on, I wonder? Also notice that you're linking to a talk page discussion rather than a full blown edit war. That's what talk pages are for--getting consensus on things. The fact that you don't want that to happen is telling. What do you think should happen when an editor reverts another editor's contributions? Just keep reverting? It can't work. Also, I really much ponder your original account, and whether you are the IP posting the same ranty-type vague speals below. Oh and to add, tell me your solution to this problem. Because if you can find something more efficient than talk pages, I'd love to hear it and I'm sure they would too. Tutelary (talk) 14:50, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, Tutelary, for providing an example of the kind of testosterone-fueled attack that would greet any female editor wading into that mess of an article. If you wre a woman, how do you think you would feel when faced with such attacks? Some people are made of plastic (talk) 21:13, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The kicker is that I am a woman. Tutelary (talk) 23:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Good heavens, stop, just stop. People know how to google "Tutelary Misplaced Pages". --Sonicyouth86 (talk) 00:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think the original state of the articles has much to be said for it, but the suggestions above seem to have the wrong focus. The reason why the article might have struck someone as offensive or voyeuristic is simply that it was badly written. For example, a table of "top cleavage, side cleavage, and bottom cleavage" is not merely pretty, but actually encyclopedic. Adding a fourth category of "downblouse", determined not by how the woman dresses but on how she is photographed, not so much. Deleting the table, though, was not the right answer. Nor should mention of "downblouse" photography be entirely omitted, since it is a social factor that is affecting current female fashion, in that women end up thinking about what they're going to end up being presented as on social media. Wnt (talk) 15:18, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

An Atmosphere of Distrust, Spite, Malice, Incompetence and Ideological Censorship Damaging the Reputation of Misplaced Pages

The toxic atmosphere new editors and unregistered editors must navigate when making good faith edits has been very damaging to the reputation of the project. It has also been very difficult for even experienced editors who in good faith try to improve or add to certain articles that a regular editor demonstrates ownership, often for ideological reasons. They often tendentiously edit the article and immediately revert any edit they deem contrary to their cause. If the new or unregistered editor attempts to reinstate their edit they jump all over the new editor with threatening language about being blocked and often use uncivil behavior to bait the new editor so they can run off to ANI to make misleading claims. When they get to ANI the new and unregistered users face a high level of mistrust (no AGF there) and an awaiting lynch mob who just can't wait to pile on with abusive comments. The unfamiliar editor will face accusations by the article owner that are likely to be presented deceptively.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Perceived Freedom of Expression Rights (Not a repository of porn or sexually provocative images)

There are other issues that keep many from participating in the project. It is especially troubling when it concerns sexually provocative or degrading images unnecessarily kept on user pages despite pretty clear user page guidelines. The usual juvenile sounding crowd shows up decrying Misplaced Pages is not censored which is possibly an ideal of sorts but far from a realistic statement. There would be no Misplaced Pages if there was not some standards which in effect become a form of censorship. This same crowd has also been known to hound editors who strive to improve the encyclopedias reputation by asking for enforcement of existing guidelines. Many of those editors have been especially insulting to female editors which is very detrimental to encouraging more women to participate in the project. Many editors have strived to make the encyclopedia more user friendly and safer for children. I would not encourage the use of Misplaced Pages in K-12 schools at this time due to the foul language, unnecessary depictions of violence against women, sexually provocative images and general low regard civility among experienced editors and many admins. There is nothing gained for an encyclopedia to show actual images of women in bondage as it reflects violence against women. A simple drawing would be much more appropriate. There is a desire by some to have a free for all as they regard editing here as right. That is faulty thinking as it a privilege to edit here that can be rescinded at any time. If the pictures are still kept, I would offer a rating system that warns a viewer when an article contains graphics that are sexually provocative, depicting violence, nudity, etc.

Juvenile Concepts Regarding Freedom to Say Anything "Rights" on Misplaced Pages (NOT A Forum)

There are many editors who enjoy demonstrating that "have a right to say whatever they want." They often use extremely offensive language for shock value and to get under a targeted editors skin. That reckless behavior out in public could result in a ticket for disorderly conduct and possibly a 72 hour psychological hold. It is amazing how tolerated it is in ANI and other community discussion. The juvenile behavior is lacking in any decorum and does little for maintaining some sense of order. It also makes for a toxic atmosphere that contributes to even more outlandish behavior. There is a group of self-identified juvenile acting males who seem to run together in their attacks on other editors. To be fair there have been many insults and biting comments from the feminist side as well but the juvenile behavior of some male editors is much more prevalent. Both sides have been going at it using derogatory remarks. The unnecessary use of derogatory language has produced a toxic culture war between the camps which is a reflection of modern western culture. The level of bullying and harassment that has been tolerated is hard to fathom for people who work in academics or other professional careers. It clearly allows the toxic atmosphere that has become so prevalent to continue and even grow. There needs to be drastic changes to change this atmosphere which brings out the worst in people.

Enforcement of Civility Severely Lacking and Removal of Incompetent Administrators

The elimination of the war culture is not possible but the enforcement of civility is through better training of admins and elimination of those admins who have not shown an ability to deal effectively with people. There are incompetent admins who create issues by not using sound judgment when enforcing the guidelines and thus misapply them. There are also admins who have taken a political position and cannot separate their admin duties from their own ideology. They are especially harmful to genuine open discourse and they add to the existing warring culture that is over taking Misplaced Pages. There are also admins who appear to have some personal issues or chemical dependencies who often are abusive to other editors. It would benefit the project to make it easier for WMF to issue a suspension pending review and recall of admins who have not effectively executed the obligations they assumed when they accepted the position.

Those Pesky Edit Count Stackers and (Trolling Rollbackers- Trollbackers)

There are also many people with a great deal of knowledge who want to participate in the project but do not have the time to deal with the revert trolls who stack up edit counts by going around reverting with little knowledge of the material. They look at the editor and make sure it is not someone who could stand up to them and without exercising a great deal of thought they revert. The usual victims of the trollbackers are new editors and anyone who dares edit with an IP. The unregistered contributor is voraciously targeted as sock or someone editing logged out with no evidence but a paranoid culture against anyone who does not choose to join the club. They are usually given little in the way of assume good faith and to be damned to hades if they know anything about the project. The paranoid schizophrenic attitude towards new accounts and unregistered editors borders on a cult like atmosphere.

Ideologues Pushing their Propaganda through Tendentious Editing and Task Forces

Then there are the many ideologues who own an article and see Misplaced Pages as a means to push their propaganda to further their viewpoint of how they believe things should be. They often remove well documented additions that contradict their viewpoint and add their own viewpoint often laced with sources from blogs and politically oriented websites that clearly lack reliability. They often coordinate attacks by establishing a task force of like minded ideologues where they interact regularly and gain important allies in their quest to turn Misplaced Pages into a source that reflects their viewpoint in the best light.

Closing

The toxic editing atmosphere has been covered much in the past at Jimbo's page and some attempts have been made to improve the atmosphere but it still remains very dysfunctional. It is time harsher measures were put in place to deal with incompetent admins who are ineffective in executing the duties they agreed to when applying and accepting the position. The poisonous editing environment at Misplaced Pages has increasingly become the subject of articles in the media. The reputation of Misplaced Pages is being severely damaged by the lack of disciplined administrators. It has also caused many good administrators to leave the project due to the constant infighting and lack of civility especially at ANI. It is time some drastic measures be taken to improve the reputation of Misplaced Pages and encourage greater participation.

Commentary

I am sure there will be some offended as their behavior has been highlighted and is being greatly discouraged by the article. Please leave your comments below. Be sure to practice civility and address the argument and refrain from personal attacks because that demonstrates your argument lacks merit. Mr. Wales your thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks, Very Respectfully 208.54.38.224 (talk) 03:54, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please discuss ways Misplaced Pages can be improved. Leave the blame game and snark at ANI, it is my intention to find constructive ways to improve the project and ideas on how that can be accomplished. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 13:27, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Comments

Please sign into your account. Tutelary (talk) 04:11, 2arize 8 February 2015 (UTC)

That's a great idea. Any reasonably intelligent high school junior can cherry pick the negatives and summarize the criticisms without any obligation to provide diffs or stand on an established record of trying to solve problems while building the encyclopedia. Maximum transparency. Then, we will talk. Cullen Let's discuss it 04:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Hello Tutelary and thank you for your interest in improving Misplaced Pages. Also, thank you for taking the time to write all that you deserve a reply.

I agree people shouldn't use their user pages to store tons of major serious hardcore porn. That seems wrong. But it's hard to say for sure without an example because it would depend on the exact context and details of the particular case because one person's pornography is another person's art and lots of people have pictures on their USER pages and we don't want to go around policing everyones pictures that would be a drag. It's possible you're just getting all worked up about something that is really no big deal, I can't tell without looking at the context. Certainly, however, we don't want people using their Misplaced Pages pages as a place to store porn.

Similarly it's hard to understand what exactly you're talking in terms of mainspace and talk page edits without examples and details.

I'm sorry you had such a negative experience on Misplaced Pages and I promise to try to help you if I can but I'm just me. But I can't tell what you're talking about because we need specifics. Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@Chrisrus: Tutelary didn't make the original post. --NeilN 05:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I am starting to think that a lot of these long winded anonymous posts are from the same person. If you want to hide your identity then expect to have little influence here, full stop. Chillum 05:02, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks for illustrating my point and providing specific examples. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:08, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Your post demonstrates an abundance of history here but where is that history? Everyone else here has their contributions visible to other users. Chillum 05:09, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I agree for the most part with the anon. If he or she wishes to remain anonymous, I think we can deal with the points that s/he lays out. The obvious one that jumps out at me is that admins don't seem to feel the need to enforce the rules anymore - just pick and choose which rules to enforce and who to enforce them against. Of course, editing as an IP and having an account technically makes him/her a sock, so .... Smallbones_(smalltalk) 05:16, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The only thing that's obvious is side A will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side B and side B will cry that admins are not enforcing the rules against side A. --NeilN 05:22, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I have never once had administrators rule in my favor, even when I'm following all the rules, and other users are harassing me relentlessly, breaking all kinds of policies. For example:

Note that @Jimbo Wales: actually personally warned one of these users for personal attacks a month ago, threatening a block. Well, Dave Dial is still harassing away, with no action having been taken against him. I'm beginning to think the administrators here are all corrupt. TBSchemer (talk) 11:55, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• PER WP:SOCK/Editing While Logged Out:

There is no policy against editing while logged out. This happens for many reasons, including not noticing that the login session had expired, changing computers, going to a Misplaced Pages page directly from a link, and forgetting passwords. Editors who are not logged in must not actively try to deceive other editors, such as by directly saying that they do not have an account or by using the session for the inappropriate uses of alternate accounts listed earlier in this policy. To protect their privacy, editors who are editing while logged out are never required to disclose their usernames on-wiki. Please refrain from casting aspersions and demands unrelated to the argument. Thanks for the few comments that actually addressed the article. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 05:35, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Without specifics it is difficult to respond to your concerns. Perhaps if you provided diffs that showed this mistreatment it would help a lot. As it stands you are an anonymous person making vague complaints. Chillum 05:42, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Please reread title and it is clear it is about an atmosphere not a specific complaint as those are addressed at ANI and this is not ANI. Your repeated requests are being ignored so there is no point in requesting them. Please stay on topic and if you have some constructive comments related to the atmosphere here please do so. Thanks. 208.54.38.224 (talk) 06:21, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

The complaints partly echo the issues described in the Technology Review article most of you have probably seen, partly pursue themes we've heard endlessly from the Gamergate and related conflicts, and generally touch on issues well known to regulars. And the saying is "comment on the edits not the editor". So I don't think the calls for diffs and identification are impressive. The problems are deep and complicated and meta: might be a better place to discuss them. I'll abstain from adding my own theories here, except general advice for newbies: if you 1) stay away from contentious topics at first (regulars get reverted in them too); 2) concentrate on adding new info to articles rather than getting into conflicts about removing stuff; and 3) avoid editorializing and include solid citations for everything you add, you probably won't get reverted. Unfortunately it takes some experience to know how to do these things. I don't think this is an improvement over the "old" Misplaced Pages. 50.0.205.75 (talk) 06:36, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

"Distrust, Spite, Malice" - Is this a good example? BTW, the original poster should look at WP:SCRUTINY. --NeilN 13:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• While I have no doubt that the scenario you portray in your opening section has happened numerous times, I seriously disbelieve that it is as ubiquitous or universal experience as you are implying. My own personal experience as a noob was actually quite the opposite. Nyth63 14:01, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• Unfortunately, we still do allow editing by unregistered IP accounts, as Wichita208... points out. It would be nice — and a real boon to the editing climate here — if we could do something about that as part of any substantial reform project. Carrite ((talk)) 17:56, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

..........that said, this looks like more of the same in terms of carping about the community standard for civility enforcement and complaint about blind reversion of IP editors — albeit without a single, solitary diff to illustrate the case. All of which is presented behind the cloak of an alternate account... Carrite (talk) 18:10, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

Not too sure about the gender wars stuff, but pretty much everything else this user has pointed out I can corroborate with firsthand experience over the years. The constant assumptions of bad faith on the part of admins, the extreme heavy handedness towards new users, the article ownership and users who seem to spend the majority of their time doing nothing but reverting, and involved admins who don't know how to recuse themselves from their duties when they involve subjects they're personally vested in--these are all attributes that are driving away potential contributors. As for sexually explicit imagery and the idea of Misplaced Pages for Kids, I don't agree with the censorship approach, but I do think a small warning about non-worksafe imagery might be helpful for both children and adults. More importantly though, random talk pages often have people swearing like sailors with no repercussions for acting incivil.

I think perhaps the biggest issue when it comes to admin misconduct is just how difficult it is to get any single admin desysopped. There just aren't powerful enough consequences for abuse.174.45.178.216 talk) 20:37, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

• I shuttered with recognition at each of 208.54.38.224 (talk)'s points. They have happened to me or I have seen them happen to others, and not always just to women. I love working in concert with others, brainstorming and forging something of value. There's a great sense of accomplishment when a good piece of work is done. However, I abhor confrontation and ad hominem attacks. The pillars and policies are always ignored by the nasty, leaving the non-aggressive with nowhere to go. Maybe my intestinal fortitude level is too low to try to participate in such a rough and tumble arena as Misplaced Pages. Thank you for your time, Wordreader (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thank you for the few that came and added constructively and I do thank those who helped illustrate the point I am making by posting personal attacks and extreme distrust of IP's. It is unfortunate they failed to address the argument and how to actually improve Misplaced Pages. One editor suggested to ban IP's but without much reason other than they can hide behind a cloak. Some are upset when they cannot easily target someone with unwarranted attacks. That type of character assassination is what makes Misplaced Pages such an unwelcome place for many. It is that distrustful, assume no faith attitude that has poisoned the editing environment. The lack of decorum, rampant distrust and character assassination continue to erode the community standards. There are great guidelines covering behavior here at Misplaced Pages but they remain only platitudes because of the toxic vile flowing from so many regular editors who would have long ago sent packing in any professional environment.

In regards to Wordreader it is not about intestinal fortitude but about reasonable expectations. It is reasonable to expect the environment here would reflect a more professional and ordered editing atmosphere. It may be you have more sense and better things in life to do than to engage in unproductive go no where arguments. Some regular editors enjoy ripping other editors which is a sign of personal insecurity. Some enjoy cyber attacking others to boost their imaginary self importance. I am often reminded of the country song about the guy who is a real hero on the internet in his own mind. They have become very skilled in the art of cyber insults from spending many hours daily engaging in it and a new contributor is likely to be turned off from further editing. The question I ask is how do they help the community foster a conducive and welcoming environment for those who have come to add their expertise but whose own busy lives do not allow the time to address petty editors looking for another cyber smack down. It as if the inmates are running the asylum. 208.54.38.202 (talk) 11:44, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to increase editor retention...

If you want to increase editor retention, I think a productive step toward doing that would be to encourage admins to apply policies equally to new users and long term users. Currently, there seems to be hesitation for administrators to enforce polices or block established users when they violate our polices. I suspect the reasons are related to longterm comradery (perhaps they’ve even shared a beer at some point) or else fear of retaliation from well connected users. --BoboMeowCat (talk) 16:34, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

It could be a simple cost/benefit calculation, BoboMeowCat...if I block Editor X for Infringement Z, would the benefit to the project outweigh the cost? If Editor X has been active for years and contributed a lot to Misplaced Pages, is preventing them from editing (because blocking is not a punishment, right?) preventing disruption or preventing constructive work on Misplaced Pages? With an unknown, new editor, it's unclear what their future holds on WP...if you look at the stats, the majority of new editors make 10 edits or less or edit very irregularly. If they are being disruptive, it's clearly of more benefit to the project to stop their disruption rather than bet on the chance that they will straighten out, change their ways and become a productive editor. But blocks usually escalate in length so most new editors who are not obvious vandals or spammers are given second chances.

I'm not saying this is how admins make these decisions or if this is how they should make these decisions...it's just one way that admins, confronted with regular complaints of disruption and incivility might approach these decisions. I think the most important factor is that admins are not a homogeneous bunch and you will find a variety of approaches to the admin tasks at hand. This might seem to some like inconsistency but I think it is actually a benefit to the project as those with different attitudes balance each other out and appeals to blocks are typically evaluated by an uninvolved admin.Liz 18:09, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Paid administrators

While there are several things wrong with the current Misplaced Pages culture, I wonder if removing the community appointed admins for paid ones might help. The problem is this, (with a few exceptions) police officers are not subject to the whim of a community, they merely enforce the laws on the book. But here at Misplaced Pages, admin actions are subject to community consensus, which is often erratic and contradictory, and sometimes unduly influenced by "popularity contests". I.e., what constitutes disruption is largely a factor of who you are and who you know. If we removed all community appointed admins and let the Wikimedia Foundation hire them I think we could get back to a more consistent editing environment for all. Let the community decide policy and guidelines, but leave the enforcement of them up to people not burdened by peer pressure and popularity contests. Maybe this is cost prohibitive, as I really don't know how many paid admins would be needed to cover the workload. And please forgive me if this is a perennial debate, but I don't see that it's been discussed anywhere. Rationalobserver (talk) 17:53, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

• Seriously: it might be a better idea to set up a paid department at wherever Misplaced Pages's head office is, with trained staff to give pastoral support to admins and editors having problems, or where other editors can pass on any concerns about admins who they suspect are having personal problems. Due to unavoidable human nature, some areas of Misplaced Pages can be fraught and noisy places - the current expectation that the editorship has some psychic knowledge that a particular Admin (who appears tough) is actually fragile is a flawed concept. Giano (talk) 18:05, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

The Village Pump would be the place to seek answers to these questions. I do believe a proposal was brought there a few months ago, seeking to have the cummunity's ability to elect administrators revoked. The result was to keep the status quo. GoodDay (talk) 18:15, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

Rationalobserver, I'm not evaluating the strength of your suggestion just reminding you that you need to consider your proposal for the English Misplaced Pages and multiply it times, I'm guessing, a factor of 200. While the English Misplaced Pages is the most visited and edited WMF website, it doesn't exist in isolation and the prospect of paying administrators on one language Misplaced Pages but not others would be a big source of disruption through the network of WMF sites that all rely on the work of volunteers. Liz 18:16, 1 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point, but do the other Misplaced Pages's have an issue with admins and community consensus? Maybe we only need them here. Rationalobserver (talk) 18:19, 1 March 2015 (UTC)