Misplaced Pages

• Support Problematic editing/begaviour in evidence. A cooling off period may help. Alexbrn 17:34, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - given Formerly98's slow but steady whitewashing described at Talk:Pharmaceutical industry#Questionable deletions, I don't think it is appropriate to sanction anyone pointing out similar patterns of behavior arising from the same editor. EllenCT (talk) 21:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

EllenCT that is irrelevant. This proposal is about BigBaby's behavior, upon which you didn't comment. Jytdog (talk) 04:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

BigBaby is reacting to Formerly 98's behavior, so it is relevant. EllenCT (talk) 06:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

No. There is no excuse for violating COPYVIO, ever, and there are ways to address concerns about behavior without resorting to personal attacks. You are not dealing with Bigbaby's actual behavior. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Per the comments immediately above, I propose a 1 week block for Doors22 for engaging in retaliatory editing. Formerly 98 (talk) 05:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not retaliating for your recent edits. I saw an incident was raised about you on the noticeboard and since I have a lot of experience with your editing behavior I decided to contribute. I hope you appreciate the irony in that you are trying to get me banned for retaliatory editing, simply because I contributed my opinion about your editing history. Many others have complained about you in the past year and some have even filed formal complaints. Speaking of editing history, 90%+ of your edits are for removing or toning down side effect profiles of a variety of drugs or removing criticisms of multinational corporations. This editing history is suggestive of somebody who is a paid editor. Are you in any way receiving money directly or indirectly for your edits on Misplaced Pages? This is not a strictly prohibited practice per Wiki policy but you would certainly be required to fully disclose this. Doors22 (talk) 05:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Because this is ANI and not an article Talk page, I am going to say this once (and only once). I do not have any COIs with respect to the content of any pharmaceutical product or company, and have never performed paid editing. You've made these accusations repeatedly on article Talk pages, in violation of multiple guidelines, and without any supportive documentation other than that you disagreed with the particular edits. The issue here is not COI on my part, but your retaliatory editing and non-stop violations of WP:TALK and WP:GF. Formerly 98 (talk) 12:16, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Striking - I over reacted. I do work a lot on articles related to drugs, pharma, the FDA, etc. A lot of these articles have what I find to be an anti-pharma POV and I have done a lot of work over the past year to bring more NPOV (as that is defined here) to these articles as well as adding content that makes these articles more complete (well-sourced content on their uses, their impact, and controversies (yes, I add negative information too). Along the way I have come under attack by lots of anti-pharma advocates, or as in the case of Doors, editors who lock in on their perceptions of side effects of drugs and give them UNDUE weight here (you would be surprised... or maybe not when you think about it) how much of that is. And many of them are quick to fling charges of COI. And sometimes the accusations of bad faith get under my skin. I lost my cool there, sorry. Formerly 98 (talk) 14:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

These comments specifically relate to your most recent ANI and even earlier ones since this issue keeps coming up. If you want me to extend the "supportive documentation" I am happy to do so. I can easily locate 50+ incidents of you removing, diminishing, or countering statements of litigation, criticisms, or controversies of various pharmaceutical companies or products. In fact this represents the large majority of your work. The remainder is more of the same for other companies like Coca Cola, Mallinckrodt, Dow Chemical among others. I will go ahead and begin to compile this list if other editors would find this helpful. At the very least, please review WP:BITE because you should be assisting new editors rather than driving them away and trying to penalize them. Doors22 (talk) 13:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I see that you struck your comments as soon as I offer to compile a list of supportive documentation, which would be so long it would take hours if done exhaustively. I honestly have yet to see you offer "negative information" and your editing history at the very least has a very strong POV and possibly suggests you are an editor with undisclosed conflict of interests. You also answered you do not have a WP:COIN with respect to the "content of any pharmaceutical product or company" but I noticed this does not fully answer the question if you have any COIs to disclose relating to any of your edits. Again, this is not a problem so long as the WP:COIN is disclosed to give other editors context. I ask other editors involved in this ANI if it would be helpful for me to begin to compile this list of supportive evidence. Again, this is not an unreasonable discussion and I will be willing to find multiple other recent instances where it was believed Formerly98 had a POV or COI related to his editing.Doors22 (talk) 14:18, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Please provide your list of supportive documentation. Honestly, Doors, lets have the discussion here on the ANI page where it belongs. It is time to put an end to unsupported allegations on the Talk pages. But simply striking poorly sourced negative information is not evidence of COI, anymore than your singleminded focus on criticizing finasteride, Merck, and baldness gurus who have endorsed finasteride is evidence that you work for tort lawyers engaged in litigation against Merck. If you have credible evidence that I have accepted money in exchange for editing services, or that I work for any of the companies whose pages I have edited, that woiuld be appropriate to include in your list. Otherwise you are just speculating in violation of WP:GF Formerly 98 (talk) 14:30, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Doors, that is yet more assuming bad faith. Editors who react emotionally and then strike shouldn't get punished for acknowledging a mistake and your connecting the strike, to what you wrote, is yet more bad-faith sloppy conspiracy thinking. Likewise, your continued charge of COI against Formerly is without foundation and if you continue to make that charge, I will take action against you for WP:NPA. COI is a very serious issue in WP and I work a lot on it; but ax-griding editors like you, and like BigBaby, reach for that irresponsibly and use it as a weapon in arguments about content. You ~may~ have a case to bring related to WP:ADVOCACY but without actual evidence of COI (and you have none), you must stop making clams of COI.. I am dead serious about that and I will move to bring action against you if you continue. You are warned. Jytdog (talk) 14:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

And Doors, you have a bad history of making personal attacks on the Finasteride article - this is just some of it:

• Back in 2011, when Jfdwolff, an admin, was working on that article with you, you called him a Nazi and accused him of editing in bad faith and claimed he had a a "very strong bias" among other bad behavior. He warned you even then that your account was a ] and that if you kept being uncivil, you risked a longterm block.
• In Oct 2014 Jfdwolff noted noted: "I'm getting a sense of deja vu. Didn't we agree that we needed to be very selective about sources in this highly disputed area? Doors22 isn't anything if not persistent." and later told you "my comment about "persistence" relates to the fact that you've been editing Misplaced Pages as a single-purpose account since February 2011. During that time we have had repeated discussions about using Misplaced Pages to promote awareness of a phenomenon that has been very poorly studied." Doc James was involved in those discussions as well.
• In Oct 2014 you turned another content dispute in the article into a personal attack, now against Formerly, where you wrote: "I added another meta analysis draws the opposite conclusion. They both look at a similar number of studies, but one journal is of a higher quality than the other. Formerly 98, are you getting paid to edit Misplaced Pages? It seems to be a full time endeavor for you since you are editing at all hours of the day. The majority of your edits involve reversions about side effects or information that is not favorable to pharmaceutical companies" and later you pushed it harder, writing " I also noticed you live in San Diego, where a lot of pharmaceutical/biotech companies are located and you have referred to yourself as an "industry guy". For all I know, you could simply own Merck stock and nothing more. Do you have any conflicts of interest that would affect your edits on this article? "
• You followed up on that, with a post on Formerly's page, again accusing him of COI.
• I warned you then to back off the personal attacks and irresponsible accusations of COI.

So really Doors, you are WP:SPA (per your contribs), dedicated to emphasizing the sexual side of effects of Finasteride in WP. You make personal attacks all the time to further your agenda and seem to believe that editors who uphold Misplaced Pages's NPOV policy and MEDRS guideline must be on the take from Big Pharma. As I did before, I suggest you stop making personal attacks to further your agenda here. Jytdog (talk) 15:33, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

These examples are taken out of context and are very dated, going back to 2011. Some of your comments are factually inaccurate too. I do not see how anything I have posted in this incident is a personal attack, visit WP:NPA and please tell me how my behavior fits any of those categories. I have stuck strictly to Formerly98's editing behavior. I am not a complete newbie in Misplaced Pages but I am also far from a seasoned editor. Will you please provide some guidance on what kind of "proof" is required to demonstrate a COI? I am not as familiar with whatever standard is generally accepted and this can be somewhat arbitrary. What you are suggesting to me seems like it is literally impossible to show evidence that an editor has a conflict of interest if he/she chooses not to disclose any but showing POV or advocacy (which would result from paid editing or some other COI) should be no problem. Doors22 (talk) 04:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

COI and edits by Formerly 98

I specifically request that @Doors22: presents the list of evidence that he feels proves that I have a WP:COI for evaluation as part of this ANI review. I further request that the list be evaluated by the other editors here, and that he be asked to stop making these accusations on article Talk pages in the event that the evidence is not found to be supportive. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I will certainly oblige you but it may take me some time to get to this. I will be away beginning tomorrow evening and may not be able to respond fully until sometime next week. 04:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doors22 (talk • contribs)

User:Formerly98 has received attention off Misplaced Pages regarding alleged COI / POV editing. The website www.rxisk.org features an article specifically about User:Formerly98 It shows a previous version of user page, discusses his deletion nomination of an article on Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction, and inquires: “Do we expect Misplaced Pages posts to be more conservative than the label produced by the pharmaceutical company?” which is apparently referring to Formerly98’s work in “toning down” the side effects on the Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin articles.--BoboMeowCat (talk) 01:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Formerly explicitly says there, that he has no COI. More bad-faith editors crying COI - and you have now joined the ranks - doesn't any more real. BoboMeowCat, that if you continue making unsubstantiated charges of COI I will seek action against you. You are warned. COI is not something to throw around in a content dispute. And you, like Doors, have POV-pushed on side effects of drugs. (in your case, asthma as an effect of acetaminophen. You are another editor who has tried to violate NPOV and MEDRS and made personal attacks as you pushed your POV. Jytdog (talk) 02:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I request that we just play this out without threats of disciplinary action and have these arguments evaluated by the communityFormerly 98 (talk) 02:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

What is going on here is a witch-hunt by a newbie angry editor (OP), and two well-known POV-pushers. I don't think going down the "throw down" path is good for anybody or WP, but as you will. Jytdog (talk) 02:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

We have 3 editors here making the same accusation in nearly every interaction I have with them, and several others who have not yet posted on this thread. I suggest we ask the community to evaluate, and then we will have a consensus one way or the other. At some point we need a clearly voiced community decision, either that I am allowed to edit in peace and without constant aspersions, or that the overall community believes that I need to change my editing practices. I don't see that as a "throw down". What I don't want is to be back here next month. Formerly 98 (talk) 03:01, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that. Put that way, this makes a lot of sense. Jytdog (talk) 14:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

In my experience here, it doesn't seem like warnings get the point across that this behavior in inappropriate to editors that do this (often with an ax to grind). I wouldn't see interaction bans for certain users completely unwarranted depending on how the conversation goes. I'm not seeing anything right now that shows a legitimate COI or even POV concern on your part Formerly, so it's still looking like these accusations against you are aspersions at best. Kingofaces43 (talk) 16:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Bob. The Post-SSRI Sexual Dysfunction Article was nominated by me for deletion, but was deleted by community consensus, so that may not be the best example. But here are the Diffs for Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin before and after I rewrote both, removing about about half of the total content of each and adding new material. I'd request the community to examine these for POV, as I am overwhelmingly responsible for the current state of these articles, though some of the work was performed as an IP editor and some under a previous username.

Ciprofloxacin Diff

Levofloxacin

It really isn't very helpful for you to provide your own examples of how you are a balanced editor. Others would have to independently look through the history of your edits to verify for themselves. They will see the overwhelming majority of your posts involve toning down side effect profiles and criticisms of large corporations.Doors22 (talk) 04:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those weren't my choices they were BobMeowCat's. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Basically we follow WP:MEDRS for medical content. While he and I may occasionally disagree, User:Formerly 98 uses high quality sources nearly all the time and thus I have not significant concerns. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I understand that he uses what is deemed to be high quality sources for what he adds but this alone does not make a NPOV editor. Removing material that you don't want on an article does not require you provide any sources at all. There is the famous quote, 'there is no such thing as truth, only the presentation of facts'. One can easily finds one reason or another that fits some kind of policy to remove unwanted material and create a desired perspective. All the while avoiding providing any sources if one wishes.Doors22 (talk) 04:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

My 2¢: basing a COI argument relative to a manufacturer's Rx info (the label) is a a bit asinine, as these vary by country due to regulatory/approval processes for the document. E.g., a Therapeutic Goods Administration approved label by Aspen pharmaceuticals lists suicidality, aggression, and homicidal tendencies as potential adverse effects of amphetamine in spite of the fact that it acknowledges elsewhere in the document that these are just isolated aftermarket reports w/ no comparison to placebo (these events could in fact occur less frequently vs people on a placebo). The current USFDA-approved label by Amedra pharmaceuticals is thankfully much less hand-wavy and doesn't list suicidality or homicidal tendencies as "potential adverse effects" and further notes that there is no systematic evidence of any relationship between stimulants and aggressive behaviors (this is a comparison between arbitrary conjecture and evidence-based medicine ).
So, with all that said, it raises the question: which label are we comparing the WP article to, an evidence-based label or one which would better serve as toilet paper than a wikipedia citation? The way we at WP:MED resolve issues like this is to apply WP:MEDRS, which is something I know Formerly does based upon my interactions with him in every article we've both worked on.

v t e Nuts
True, or botanical nuts	Acorn Beech American beech European beech Breadnut Candlenut Chestnut Sweet chestnut Hazelnut American hazel Beaked hazel European hazel Filbert Asian hazel Kola nut Kurrajong Malabar chestnut Palm nut Red bopple nut Yellow walnut
Drupes	Almond Australian cashew nut Betel nut Borneo tallow nut Breadfruit Cashew Chilean hazel Coconut Durian Gabon nut Hickory Mockernut hickory Pecan Shagbark hickory Shellbark hickory Johnstone River almond Irvingia gabonensis Jack nut Karuka Planted karuka Wild karuka Mongongo Panda oleosa Pekea nut Pili nut Pistachio Walnut Black walnut Butternut English walnut Heartnut
Gymnosperms	Cycad Burrawang nut Ginkgo nut Araucaria spp. Bunya nut Monkey-puzzle nut Pine nut Chilgoza pine Colorado pinyon Korean pine Mexican pinyon Single-leaf pinyon Stone pine
Angiosperms	Brazil nut Macadamia Macadamia nut Queensland macadamia nut Paradise nut Peanut Peanut tree Soybean

TLDR: arguing that Formerly has a COI simply by comparing his edits to the adverse effects on an arbitrary label is completely retarded. Seppi333 (Insert 2¢ | Maintained) 04:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Both Formerly98 diff and Jytdog diff joined in to remove referenced COI statements on the Glaxo Smith Kline article. Formerly98 and removed the claim from the Johnson and Johnson page diff AlbinoFerret 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Diffs please Formerly 98 (talk) 04:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It is late so I don't have time to pull up specific diffs but Formerly98 was very active on the e-cigarette page until it was temporarily frozen. I initially thought it was so strange that he was more or less exclusively involved in making pro-drug statements while being anti-e-cigarettes. But then I did some very quick research and saw the pharmaceutical industry was strongly lobbying against e-cigarettes because it threatens their existing products (ie Nicorette). In the example above, Formerly98 removed this mention from the GSK article because it lacked 'notability' which is a very common page from his playbook. At the very least, it is suspicious and certainly indicates a strong point of view.Doors22 (talk) 04:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Diffs please. thanks. Formerly 98 (talk) 04:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff Here is one example from Mallinckrodt where you reverted another user's edit that discussed the company's history of illegal waste dumping and justified this by saying the company had a "complex series of takeovers and spinouts" so that historical actions are no longer associated with the current company.

Thank you, I assume then that you disagree with this edit. How does it establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff2 In another example, you deleted 2 sentences on sleep talking caused by Ambien because you arbitrarily deemed them to be too rare.

I reduced the number of sentences from 6 to 4. I understand that you disagree. What is the basis of your belief that 6 is the correct number? How does this establish COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff3 Here you edit David Healy's article (who is the doctor who independently brought attention to your edits off wikipedia) and you felt the need to replace a neutral tone with a more aggressive tone.

I see that I attibuted a statement made by Healy to Healy instead of stating his conclusionhs in Misplaced Pages's voice. I understand you disagree. How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff4 Another example of a separate editor believing you to have a bias and POV which you correctly decided to strike. Notably this is on the e-cigarette page.

This appears to be a Talk page discussion, so maybe off-topic. Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff5 Here you completely erase discussion of regulatory capture on the pharmaceutical industry page, despite it being a widely accepted topic of controversy that generates substantial discussion in the outside world and academic circles.

I'm not seeing "completely erase", what I see is a reduction from 4 sentences to 2. I assume you believe that 4 was the correct number of sentences? How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff6 This one is quite telling. You deleted well sourced but negative facts about Merck that discussed unethical actions they took during past controversies. You wrote the article should "tell the story and let the readers decide", but really you just erased the negative evidence which was really descriptive and not judgmental.

This was probably not my best edit, but it is one of many that I made to the article, including restoring a section describing the company's products, which one editor had deleted as "unimportant". How does this establish COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

diff7 Here you completely remove a section from the pharmaceutical industry about "me-too" drugs which is another very commonly discussed issue that obviously belongs on this page in some fashion.

True, but the section was actually pretty balanced and not all that critical of the industry, and as the edit summary notes, it was based on out of date refs. How does this establish COI?Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is just a very small sample of what look like POV/advocacy editing to me and there are hundreds of more examples. I strongly suggest other users take a look through his contribution history because his contribution history looks like it was written by a PR professional (at least to me). Doors22 (talk) 05:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I second this recommendation. I described what I saw in their editing, specifically with the Depression and Astro Zeneca articles circa May 31 and early June 2014, here. Seeing just a few day's worth of this person's edits (spindoctoring on steroids) was the final straw for me before throwing up my hands and ending my editing here at WP. petrarchan47tc 07:45, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

It was the Anti-depressant article that first alerted me to this activity. Here is a talk page section to help navigate, but I am unwilling to spend time digging for diffs. If one were to peruse F98's contribs in early June 2014, they would see what I saw. It doesn't take a sleuth in this case, it's extremely obvious pro-Pharma, SPA editing. petrarchan47tc 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So your position is that you are recommending sanctions but "are not willing to put in the time to generate the diffs"? Hmm. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Petrarchan, could you please provide actual article diffs? Thanks. Formerly 98 (talk) 08:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think merely providing diff's is the best way to go about this because other users who don't have history discussing matters with Formerly98 will completely miss out from seeing the whole context of his edits which is very important. Do any more experienced editors have any suggestions for how to best proceed with this COI/advocacy issue? I mentioned I will be away for the next few days starting tomorrow and would like to contribute to this conversation so please don't interpret my absence as though I am finished with the discussion.

I do think it is pretty telling that Formerly98's 'spin doctoring' drove away the editor above and when I have more time will be able to point out examples where he proactively drove other editors away. I also think it is telling that he tried to get me banned because I tried to contribute to this discussion and he attempted to backed down when he was concerned the issue might escalate to an investigation of his behavior.Doors22 (talk) 12:23, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Doors, I think what you need to do here is to establish some criteria for "COI" and "POV editing" that don't measure POV by the distance between the viewpoint expressed and your own opinions.

I think your statement that I "backed down when he was concerned that the issue might escalate into an invesigation of his behavior" is hard to reconcile with the fact that I invited the exact discussion we are having now. And so far, all you have brought to the table are content disputes. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Taken as a whole; formely98 contribuion history is that of a duck, his edit/delete arguments are that of a duck, and his tactics even on this ANI are that of a duck. Formelly98 is a duck.

lets not forget, that his initial response here to the fraudulent statement he added to the Ley article "oh it was a different reference i cited, but now its behind a paywall" a.k.a we cant verify his claim now, i easly demonstrated was a total lie ; it was a NY Times archived article that has been behind a paywall for years. He felt comfortable because due to jytdog theatrics, they went after me and let him slide. But the moment i reached some kind of understanding with editor niel, and editor doors was also accusing him, formely98 felt the shift in the tide, paniced and changed his tune, first he erased his attack on doors and then also changed his story about the fraudulent statement he added "im sorry i don't know how that happened". He should be banned just for lying and manipulating the ANI panel.Bigbaby23 (talk) 13:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, I obviously disagree with this for reasons cited above. Importantly, I never claimed that the source was in the paywalled article only that I thought it might be but could not check it for myself. Formerly 98 (talk) 13:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I am here because recent edits to an article flagged by my database queries showing heavy editing on economically sensitive topics compelled me to examine Formerly 98's contributions for the first time. I urge administrators and other interested parties to examine the issues raised at Talk:Pharmaceutical industry#Questionable deletions where Formerly 98 has over the past few years been slowly scrubbing the most uncomfortable criticism from that article. EllenCT (talk) 21:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

To be fair Ellen, its not strictly true that you "felt compelled to examine Formerly 98's contributions for the first time" based on a database search. You and I have taken opposing stances on multiple issues over the last year, recently at Pharmaceutical industry, Hydraulic Fracturing, and Electronic cigarette. And your proposals at Pharmaceutical industry failed to gain consensus. Given the support I recieved from other editors there, who as group rejected your suggested changes, how can this be used as evidence of POV editing or COI? Formerly 98 (talk) 00:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This is completely untrue. The group did not reject her edits by any means. They were discussed constructively and a compromise was reached. I have yet to see you engage in this kind of discussion. Any editor who takes the time to do the research on this investigation will see you are not telling the truth.Doors22 (talk) 04:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

In all of our previous interactions, I had not, nor did I feel it would be a worthwhile use of my time, to look through your specific contributions instead of just individual article histories. That changed when I saw you trying to obscure a pharmaceutical company's corporate inversion in the same manner that a new SPA who had been reverted six times for it had just done. EllenCT (talk) 06:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Formerly 98's response to the comments above

I deliberately opened up this discussion in order to illustrate the level and type of personal attacks that I deal with on a daily basis as an editor here. Above we have over 2000 words of criticism from editors who accuse me of being a POV editor and having undisclosed COIs. Representative evidence includes:

• My removal of WP:COPYVIO from the article Criticism of the Food and Drug Administration (evidence of being a undisclosed paid editor)

his indescriminate removal of negative criticism some were copyvio and some were not, and that was in the Herbert Ley article and if he couldn't think of a reason or pduedo reason that would some how pass to remove material, he would add stuff to tone down the criticism, and when he even didn't have that, he simply fabricated a sentence and added it, to yet again, nalify criticism. In the FDA article he removed a previous head of FDA criticism against big pharma influence in the fda, giving balony reasons.Bigbaby23 (talk) 04:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

you are further discrediting yourself with this ranting, Bigbaby. Jytdog (talk) 04:49, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I have been criticized on the website of a virulently anti-industry activist and author. If fringe websites are criticizing my edits, I'm not sure that should be viewed as a problem, should it?
• One editor noted that I edited Electronic cigarette in a way that was perceived as negative, and noting that some pharmaceutical companies sell competing quit smoking products, concluded that this was evidence that my edits were driven by a desire to increase pharmaceutical company profits. This reasoning seems a little circular to me.
• Several authors present as examples of "POV pushing" changes that I made that were supported by consensus upon challenge. I'm not sure how I can win consensus so consistently if I am a fringe POV pusher.

• Pharmaceutical industry, in which my edits were challenged and supported by editor consensus
• Another example of my "POV/COI editing" is the deletion of the Post-SSRI Sexual Disorder article, which was not deleted by me by by community consensus after I nominated it
• Finally, we have the Ciprofloxacin and Levofloxacin articles, which I rewrote and which by community consensus, remain in almost exactly the state I left them in when I finished editing them a year ago. How do extreme POV articles that get 1000 hits a day remain almost completely unedited for a year when they are so commonly accessed?

Some of the other remarks simply seem silly. One editor links to an exchange that occurred several months ago that "drove her to stop editing". But her editing history shows she is still active. Another claims to have discovered by POV editing by a database search, but s/he and I have a history of editing disagreements that far predates the reported date of the search that my name putatively appeared in.

I respectfully request closure with a warning to all that WP:GF will be more vigorously enforced in the future, and that I be guaranteed the ability to edit here in peace without being continuously the subject of speculative personal attacks by those who view disagreement with their position as proof positive of paid editing and COI.' As noted here by the Head of the Misplaced Pages Medicine Project and other medical editors, my editing has generally been well sourced and high quality. I deserve to be allowed to go about my business without being abused by those who believe personal attacks are the best argument of first resort. Formerly 98 (talk) 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I really don't think you get to be the one to determine when closure has been attained for an investigation about your behavior. It also shows you were not acting in good faith when you engaged in this discussion to prove a point. The problem generally is not with what information you add to articles but what you delete. Your justifications are very frequently off base and indicative you are trying to erase negative information. Let me ask you - why are you the only editor that seems to be getting a negative response from many others when you claim your edits are objective and high quality?Doors22 (talk) 03:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is another diff that shows an edit I found particularly repugnant. You erased a reference that a pharmaceutical company produced Zyklon B, the poisonous gas that was used by the Nazis to murder millions of people. Your justification, again, was very weak and you tried to say that Bayer was responsible for manufacturing the poison, the the conglomerate. This makes no sense as it is on the Bayer article that you thought this was irrelevant, but this would certainly warrant more than a passing mention even on a parent level article. I don't always disagree with your edits or points but I almost always disagree with the tactics you use to bury negative information. I am not inviting you to respond to this message but I am including this for other editors to see, evaluate, and comment.Doors22 (talk) 03:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That reason given was "Bayer <> IG Farben". That diff was a month ago, and there have been about 20 edits by other editors since then, and it has stuck. So hm. And, btw, way to pull the Nazi argument. Lovely. You have reached the Godwin's law stage of desperate argumentation. Jytdog (talk) 04:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Godwin's Law does not apply to discussions of the historical actions of actual nazis. EllenCT (talk) 06:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm unfamiliar with Godwin's law but after looking at the article it certainly does not apply to this discussion. I never compared him to the Nazis but drew attention to the fact he erased corporate ties to the Nazis on various articles. However, you are wrong that IG Farben <> Bayer as they were the same company during the years of the Holocaust - the company was split up after the war. Formerly98 has also removed instances of corporate link to the Nazis in other articles as well - Coca Cola is another one. This latest justification is also off-point and repugnant. 'It is OK and not notable because everybody had links to the Nazis.' Another two solid examples of his pattern of whitewashing corporate controversy. I request other editors contribute because JYTDog has a long history of collaborating with Formerly98 on many articles and is not being objective about this. When I get the time, I am going to retrieve instances where other editors have directly had similar problems with him but that may need to wait until next week.Doors22 (talk) 05:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Not quite sure what the point is that some are trying to make here, but when an appropriate argument was made, I personally restored to this article the fact that Bayer-IG Farben used slave labor during the same war after it had been removed by others. Not exactly the behavior expected of a good Nazi, is it?

So this provides yet another example of this same group of editors cherry picking data to make their point and accusing me of POV editing for changes that were approved by editor consensus. Once again I respectfully request closure and a warning to all participants in this thread that WP:GF will be rigorously enforced with sanctions moving forward. Formerly 98 (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

On the cotrary. This proves what a manipulative liar you are. You were vigorously against adding the nazi info to the Bayer article, with all sorts of your usual twisted arguments. You decided to re-insert that paragraph only when it was made clear to you, and you checked it yourself, that Bayer's own website history page, also tells this fact in their wwii history chronichalBigbaby23 (talk) 10:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, do not pretend like I called you a Nazi because that is simply untrue and I have been completely civil during this discussion unlike yourself. After extensive discussion and pushback on the Talk:Bayer page you reluctantly added back a mention that the company used slave labor for a concentration camp to prevent more serious material from coming back. Hypothetically, if my agenda were to make Bayer look good I'd rather mention the use of labor than being accomplice to millions of murders. Moreover, you characterize this as being one instance of many companies that collaborated with the Nazis but completely fail to mention Bayer was the only company to create its own concentration camp, Monowitz, during the war. Request for closure declined until you actually get feedback from independent editors who review your history. Your easily anticipated defense that we are cherry picking data is why I have repeatedly requested editors look through your history holistically.Doors22 (talk) 12:56, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Your note states that I readded the slave camp material after "extensive pushback". Thats not true. Someone else had deleted it and I added it back as soon as I saw a persuasive Talk page post that convinced me it belonged there. Not only did I re-add it, I debated with the person who deleted it and wanted to remove it again, arguing that it should be left in place Formerly 98 (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm starting to get a little dizzy from all your spin. Other editors - check out the actual discussion to see how it evolved from start to finish. I actually think this discussion is not in the proper place which is why we have not seen feedback other than the few other users that had problems with Formerly98. I'll do some research to figure out proper protocol and reset discussion in the proper location when I get the chance. Doors22 (talk) 14:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Viktorengström's SPA campaign on Stalinism?

Viktorengström (talk · contribs) did his first edit on 3 January 2015 to remove a category that Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia were show trials. Curiously his next edits were to an American historian to has been accused of trying to rehabilitate Stalin, which relates to the issue at hand which is very narrow editing area related to Stalinism, communism and a bit to Nazism as well.

He removed category Holodomor perpetrators from Vyacheslav Molotov despite that the article has sources that he was personally related to the origins of the famine. He removed a notorious Nazi judge from the "See also" section of Czech communist judges , only to add the very same judge to a present-day US Republican prosecutor and Joseph McCarthy articles! He likes to remove all mentions of "repression" in the Soviet Union and "Stalinism": , , , , , , , . A part of this campaign included renaming the category Functionaries of the Stalinist regime in Poland in articles despite the fact that his category did not exist, for which Poeticbent notified the user. While "Stalinism" shouldn't be used as an epithet, clearly the user has a problem with it even when it simply refers to Stalin's regime.

Apparently he went even as far to POV-push that the Great Purge didn't include show trials.. Lastly, he removed propaganda category from East German state political journalist but added it to two anti-communist advocacy groups , . Classic.

You can go through all of the users edits, there's not much. They just consist of that kind of small POV tweaks and categories, never using talk pages or edit summaries. Is this WP:SPA or just business as usual? --Pudeo' 15:27, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, in looking, on the first edit, "Holocaust trials in Soviet Estonia" he did remove "show trials" with a note explaining that there wasn't any references to back up that claim, and he's right about that.

I saw no discussion on the talk pages about that particular revert, but did see talk about "show trials" with one user claiming "common knowledge" as a reason to add it in, which , even if it is, doesn't square with Misplaced Pages's insistence on reliable sources, so I'd say that revert is correct. The other removals of "show trials" was pretty much the same thing, with the judges, yeah, it was a dumb move to move a judge into a spot that says he's a current judge, that fails reliability, so while his reverts aren't all vandalistic, some are definitely wrong , but not all are, some are helpful. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:08, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

That's true. But what makes it impossible for me to assume good faith are cases of that kind of dualistic "retaliatory" POV-pushing: so there's this notorious Nazi judge in "See also" of communist regime judges, better remove it and moments later add it to articles about right-wing judges in the US.--Pudeo' 18:52, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I quickly checked a few their edits. Some are definitely POV and hardly supported by RS. Others amount to vandalism. For example, this edit links an article to a category that does not exist. My very best wishes (talk) 21:16, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

• Got my attention. Here we go. (1) Arch Getty is an ultra-serious, big boy full professor of history at UCLA specializing in the history of the Soviet 1930s LINK. It is absolutely tendentious bullshit to try and pigeonhole him as a historian who "has been accused of trying to rehabilitate Stalin." The OP has already lost me. (2) There is no easy definition of "show trial." Individual mileage may vary. (3) "Holodomor" (Good translation = "Hunger terror") is a pejorative term which has great favor among Ukrainian nationalists who assert that the 1932-33 famine catastrophe was a conscious act of anti-Ukrainian genocide. This thesis is dubious at best unless a million deaths in Kazakhstan and Russia were also conscious acts of anti-Ukrainian genocide (not to mention the abject lack of archival support of the notion to emerge after the fall of the USSR). The use of the tendentious phrase "Holomodor perpetrator" is a good measure of where the OP is coming from. Get the boomerang out... Carrite (talk) 22:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Last edit: Carrite (talk) 22:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

  Category:Holodomor perpetrators is an existing category and I don't have anything to do with it. The European Parliament, UN General Assembly and OECD among others by the way recognize Holodomor as a genocide. Perhaps it's just your orthodox pro-Soviet communist POV that reeks here. --Pudeo' 00:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Now that's a nasty thing to call a Social Democrat, oh Fair-And-Balanced one... Carrite (talk) 02:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Upon further review, the fact that you can't tell my politics after 55,000 edits, many on Communist-related topics, I am gonna take as a compliment... I know YOUR politics though...) Carrite (talk) 02:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not sure if any action would be necessary, but just would like to notice the following. (1) Arch Getty is indeed s a revisionist (may be even a Stalinist) historian. Giving link (above) to his own web site does not prove anything. Getty is mostly known for claiming that Stalin did not plan Great Terror. See here, for example: "One of Getty’s more significant contributions to revisionism was the shifting of blame for the bloody purges from Stalin to Nikolai Yezhov". He sees "Great Terror as the consequence of the USSR’s newfound social mobility and concludes that in such chaotic political flux inadvertent atrocities were bound to be committed.". (2) There is no any controversy what Soviet "show trial" means. (3) "Holodomor" in Russian and Ukrainian is not a pejorative term. "Death by Hunger" is merely a translation, nothing more. There is a scholarly opinion (e.g. by Robert Conquest) that a million of deaths in Kazakhstan were also an act of genocide; this does not disprove anything about Holodomor. My very best wishes (talk) 04:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you remove your libelous insinuation, for that is exactly what it is. And I know your politics, too. Carrite (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Addenda): The irony of you lauding the poet Robert Conquest as a historian and covering your User Page with poetry is not lost on me. Conquest was a Cold War era polemicist and the "revisionist" movement of the 1970s and 1980s (Stephen Cohen, Roberta Manning, Lynne Viola, Arch Getty, Robert Thurston, ad infinitim) is the mainstream academic history of today, for those of you at home trying to follow the game without a scorecard. Carrite (talk) 17:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you mean Stephen F. Cohen who has been described as "most prominent intellectual apologist for Putin" ? My very best wishes (talk) 22:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Territory war 3 pwner and User:SPIKE SPIKE BAD

Editor Special:Contributions/SPIKE SPIKE BAD, who appears to be a young, enthusiastic editor, has been causing problems with their NPP work for a week. I noticed this morning that they "retired" , and I wondered how soon before they were back. The answer turned out to be... 60 seconds.

Last edit from SPIKE_SPIKE_BAD: First edit by new editor User:Territory war 3 pwner:

Special:Contributions/Territory war 3 pwner is editing almost identically to how SSB did:

• Cryptic edit summaries in reversions, like "WHY" or "WHAT", from SSB: , , , ,
• Same from TW3P:
• Abusive edit summaries from SSB when reverting vandalism (or perceived vandalism): , , ,
• Same from TW3P: ,
• Completely wrong CSD rationales from SSB: ,
• Same from TW3P: , and an inappropriate db-g3 on Block TZ Entertainment, for which I didn't get a diff, and it's now deleted A7.

Also note the oddly stilted English used even in the milder edit summaries, and on both editor's talk pages. Now I'm all for fresh starts in life, but this isn't a fresh start, it's the same behaviour using a new account to avoid scrutiny and a possible block: SSB was warned repeatedly about WP:BITEing new users, and about creating unnecessary work for other editors cleaning up the mess, and kept promising to straighten up, and failing to change their behaviour one bit. Also note that a lot of the repeated warnings given to SSB were deleted: see contribs. I asked new editor TW3P if this was a new account from the same person, and the reply was no: . I don't know if this is technically sockpuppetry, so I haven't opened a SPI. But a checkuser would be useful here. Can an admin advise please. on how to handle this? Thanks, Dai Pritchard (talk) 16:15, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

It's obviously the same editor. For further evidence, incorrect warnings that users can't remove warnings from their talk pages SpikeBB here, Territory here. Distrust of ip users Spike BB here and Territory here. At first I appreciated Spike's enthusiasm for NPP and RCP, but in the end I came to see them as a net negative as they refused to get the point, spurned offers from more experienced users to help them out and continued the same mistakes that numerous users had informed them about over and over again. There's no point in someone doing NPP and RCP if they make so many errors that they need to be patrolled themselves and are constantly biting new users. Regardless of how the alternative account use is dealt with, Spike/Territory need to be banned from NPP and RCP for now, as they are doing more harm than good. Valenciano (talk) 16:59, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I looked at Territory war 3 pwner because they edited a blocked sockmaster's talk page. Yes, even though they have denied it on their talk page, they are the same as SPIKE SPIKE BAD. —DoRD (talk) 17:43, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I noticed that Territory war 3 pwner also used swear words in a couple of edit summaries when reverting vandalism. The only other editor I've seen do that is SPIKE SPIKE BAD, and the general aggression combined with very similar error (like the G3 on Block TZ Entertainment, which I saw, was going to change to A7, but someone else had already done it). IMO, they have to be the same user. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:49, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

For what it's worth I noticed Territory after he made this reversion. Being that it was only his 9th edit and he was already making reversions and seemed to have a working knowledge of Misplaced Pages, I immediately suspected a sock. And I swear to you, I have no reason why, but the first person I thought of was Spike. I had also noticed his "retirement" and I suppose the fact that Territory was just jumping in with vandalism fighting, much the same as Spike had, raised my suspicions. Come to think of it, I always half suspected that Spike was also a sock of an earlier user. He seeemed to know how to do much more than someone brand new to the project would.  DiscantX 22:42, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

I also thought that Spike had to have been here before, as they leaped in and started immediately doing reversions and their 11th edit was to report someone at WP:AIV , that at a time when their account was supposedly a few hours old. For a genuinely new editor that's unheard of. Also, while the editor is writing in stilted English, the mistakes are inconsistent, sometimes they use more difficult things like articles, modal verbs, conditional structures and past forms correctly, sometimes not. If someone genuinely has problems with English they'll make the same mistakes, so that is more typical of someone who speaks English quite well and is pretending not to. It's the same with their editing: a mix of good and bad edits without consistency. This leads me more towards suspecting deliberate intent i.e. pure trolling rather than simple incompetence. But all this is a moot point, they'ŗe clearly socking and have clearly been given enough warnings to change their behaviour and the same issues are being repeated, so I'm afraid that it's time to say goodbye. Valenciano (talk) 08:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. I was reluctant to break WP:GF with Spike and I feel that the same may be true with other editors who encountered him, but I feel he knew/knows exactly what he's doing.  DiscantX 08:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I do also feel it is worth discussing if his behaviour is intentional, as it turns the case from a good-faith editor who may have created a sock in order to continue making what he views as constructive edits to one of an experienced user who is intentionally disrupting Misplaced Pages.  DiscantX 09:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Territory war 3 pwner has now also "retired", , so we'll need to look out for the next sock. This may need to turn into an SPI after all. Dai Pritchard (talk) 10:37, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

If a new one emerges, I would support a SPI, because that would be the third (maybe more, if there was some before Spike) account that they're using. Joseph2302 (talk) 12:28, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

He implied that there were/are earlier accounts in that last message. —C.Fred (talk) 14:11, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Since he's offering taunts like that, it's clear that his sockpuppetry is both intentional and ill-purposed. Is there any reason why we shouldn't open an SPI now? Dai Pritchard (talk) 14:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Following up We all missed DoRD's comment above where he confirmed that these two are the same person. He didn't find any other accounts. Blackmane (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Request for block - IP disrupting a course with students, no rationale given

Hello. I have a group of students in a course. Some IP has said that our course promotes vandalism by posting on the course page and deleting our course page. They give no further explanation. This is a disruptive harassing stalker. Can these IPs please be blocked?

• User:72.68.239.80
• User:70.121.211.218

I am happy to talk with anyone but this disrupts a group of people and this user obviously knows enough to engage on Misplaced Pages, because they know how to disrupt many people at once. I did not notify this user on their userpage per WP:TROLL. I requested page protection at the protection board. Blue Rasberry (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

The 70.121 IP has no edits, and the 72.68 IP has not been active since 27 February. I don't think a block is in order at this time. However, if the problem recurs, then protection (if not already done) or blocks can be undertaken. —C.Fred (talk) 17:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Is there anyone else that gets their own IP listed on the history page of the course? Known bug? Rettetast (talk) 17:21, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

• The answer to that question is yes. I have that exact same issue - Bluerasberry, are you thus sure those aren't your own IPs? Very weird bug. Lukeno94 (tell Luke off here) 17:28, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah. My own IP also shows up as well when I saw the page. Epic Genius (talk) 17:30, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Me too. -- Finlay McWalterᚠTalk 17:37, 3 March 2015 (UTC)
    • Me six. I philed a bug on Phabricator. Keegan (talk) 18:14, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Note that the proper IP in question is 72.68.239.80 (talk · contribs), as found in the database by a developer at phabricator. Mamyles (talk) 15:56, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It also appears that the course pages cannot be protected. OhanaUnited 16:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Moved userpage

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Can someone take a look at this Kashyap Rajput Sub Castes, a recently moved userpage. It's a bit beyond my experience as to what to do to it.

Its a userpage of a sock that was blanked then mvoed to mainspace and then had content added. Tempted to restore it to its original version but not totally sure if its a good idea without cleaning it up first. Amortias (T)(C) 21:28, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

• Suggest move to Draft:Kashyap Rajput Sub Castes, or restore original userpage -- Orduin 21:40, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

original page was another users userpage tagging them as a WP:SOCK so assuming it needs restoring. Looking to see if its best to move the page back, moving it to draft is just going to lead to a confusing edit history in my opinion. Amortias (T)(C) 21:55, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

It probably is better to move it back rather than delete it. —C.Fred (talk) 22:00, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Moved back. Next question. If this is a sockpuppeteeer why are they editing? Amortias (T)(C) 22:12, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Have tagged the moved page as WP:SPEEDY#G1 as the page makes no sense, however while paying insufficient attention please see below.

And someone please slap me. - Misplaced the page when moving User:Kashyap Rajput Sub Castes needs deleting now due to user error. Amortias (T)(C) 22:15, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Note: Tagged User:Kashyap Rajput Sub Castes with U2. -- Orduin 22:36, 3 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, Kashyap Rajput Sub Castes tagged with G8. -- Orduin 01:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Pages deleted, I believe we can close this now? -- Orduin 22:21, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

IP hopping edit warrior / block evasion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

IP account blocked for 2 weeks

• 67.240.247.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 66.66.103.144 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 96.25.250.141 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• Murder of Boris Nemtsov (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

First IP was blocked for edit warring by Swarm. All IPs geolocate to the same city. Edit warring has continued on the latest IP (96.25.250.141) while the first IP is still blocked. Requesting blocks or temporary semi on the page. Thanks, Stickee (talk) 02:36, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

 Resolved: blocked 24h by Antandrus. Stickee (talk) 02:59, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Only the last was blocked. The middle IP is hitting up WP:DRN as we speak. --IJBall (talk) 04:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I went ahead and blocked the other one; it's obviously the same person. Since he did not take me up on my offer to unblock early if he promised to stop edit warring, instead switching to an unblocked IP, I'm withdrawing that offer. Ping me if you need the article protected. Antandrus (talk) 17:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

IPv6-hopping "Lee Corso" editor is probably a sneaky vandal, but occasionally sounds sincere

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• 2601:2:2380:27E:F50F:2654:2F67:D06B (talk · contribs · (/64) · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log)
• 20 other IPs in the same /64 block -- I suggest installing the IP range widget for Special:Contributions, and searching for 2601:2:2380:27E:*
• Corsiobuttylykl (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• 3oi343oi4o34 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
• Example article: Snowshoe, West Virginia

This IPv6 user is making a pattern of edits that largely involve either changing sentences to be about sports broadcaster Lee Corso, or changing temperatures to be colder. I've blocked the IPs for 72 hours so far and disabled account creation, but this still needs more follow-up. Today while scanning through the changes I found a case where later edits had been reverted to this user's preferred temperatures, for example, and made sure to specifically undo it. I doubt that's the last case.

The Lee Corso thing is clearly just vandalism, but some of the user's recent changes to temperatures include edit summaries that make them sound sincere, as if the user firmly believes that Misplaced Pages is actually reporting temperatures incorrectly. This makes it possibly slightly different from vandalism. I'm temporarily assuming good faith in the face of evidence to the contrary, so I left a message on User talk:Corsiobuttylykl (great name, I know, but that's the least of the issues here).

There definitely is a problem here. I'm hoping to get an explanation from the user on why they think the temperatures they're changing are wrong, although I'm expecting the answer is likely that they're screwing with Misplaced Pages and hoping to get away with it. But I'm leaving the Corsiobuttylykl account unblocked for a bit because I asked kindly for a response.

I don't have the time to follow up on this alone, though.

Keep in mind that if you're looking for user contributions or if you're about to place a block, you should make sure it applies to the entire /64 block, 2601:2:2380:27E::/64. The user appears to be on the kind of IPv6 setup where changing the last 64 bits of your address is easy. rspεεr (talk) 05:15, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@Rspeer: Please see Misplaced Pages:Sockpuppet investigations/Jaredgk2008. Cheers ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

For the record, that address belongs to Comcast, and they typically issue a /64 to each of their IPv6 customers. The range contributions can be seen here if you have the range contributions gadget enabled. ​—DoRD (talk)​ 13:53, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

• Regarding the "least of issues" aside above, the user's name is, phonetically, "Corso butty-lick", thereby in violation of username policy. The name will have to be changed or blocked. Pax 18:26, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Corso was just blocked indefinitely for other reasons (being a sock-puppet), so this can be closed. Pax 22:17, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

2015 CheckUser and Oversight appointments: Invitation to comment on candidates

The Arbitration Committee is seeking to appoint additional users to the CheckUser and Oversight teams, and is now seeking comments from the community regarding the candidates who have volunteered for this role.

Interested parties are invited to review the appointments page containing the nomination statements supplied by the candidates and their answers to a few standard questions. Community members may also pose additional questions and submit comments about the candidates on the individual nomination pages or privately via email to arbcom-en-clists.wikimedia.org.

Following the consultation phase, the committee will take into account the answers provided by the candidates to the questions and the comments offered by the community (both publicly and privately) along with all other relevant factors before making a final decision regarding appointments.

The consultation phase is scheduled to end 23:59, 18 March 2015 (UTC), and the appointments are scheduled to be announced by 31 March 2015.

For the Arbitration Committee, Courcelles (talk) 06:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Discuss this

Attacks on Krimuk90

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Can an administrator please note the gross personal attacks made to Krimuk90 and abusive edit summaries and block them.♦ Dr. Blofeld 09:35, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'm not sure what a "chootiya" is, but the edit summaries in general indeed suggest a violation of WP:NPA nonetheless. BTW, Dr. Blofeld, the IP wasn't notified of this discussion, so I did just that. Erpert 10:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Not confirmed as a fixed IP and they appear to have stopped editing, so I haven't blocked at this stage. If it resumes please let me know. In the mean time have rev-deleted the insults and oversighted the BLP violation. -- Euryalus (talk) 10:55, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Krimuk90 can you alert Euyalus if he continues in the future?♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:57, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Yup, thank you both very much. :) -- KRIMUK90 ✉ 14:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism at List of Cricket World Cup records

Semi-protected by CBW. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:02, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Would an admin please protect this page against persistent vandalism? I posted at WP:RPP, but no-one seems to be active there. StAnselm (talk) 10:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Article now semi-protected for a period of 1 week by CambridgeBayWeather over at WP:RPP. --IJBall (talk) 15:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Vandalism on The Amazing Race U.S. articles

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This IP editor (68.172.212.105 (talk · contribs)) vandalizes every season of the original American Amazing Race with continuous unnecessary addition of span codes, I had reverted to restore them all and can any admin to report that user? ApprenticeFan 11:22, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think this is really vandalism. I don't particularly see the point in it, but I'm sure they are acting in good faith.  DiscantX 11:31, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, have you tried asking them why they are doing this? Maybe they have a good reason. I see no discussion on their talk page (you should also notify them on their talk page that they have been brought up here at ANI).  DiscantX 11:35, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Just notified the editor. The user's most recent edit was at 04:59 on 4 March 2015, so it looks like they've stopped. APerson (talk!) 14:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Lime Street (TV series)

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Is this person's edit legit? even for a show that has historical significance because of its connection with Samantha Smith and even though it didn't even last a season, are we really allowed to link to full episodes on YouTube? Paul Austin (talk) 14:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Per WP:EL/P, since this YouTube video is published by an unreliable source, the link can be removed. Epic Genius (talk) 14:48, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Could you do it. It's better if someone with authority does it. I have no desire to become a target as i have no authority or power. Paul Austin (talk) 14:54, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

It isn't even a matter of it being an unreliable source. The video on YouTube is a copyright violation, and we must not link to such items. I've already taken care of this issue as Paul Austin left a note on my talk page. — Huntster (t @ c) 17:20, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Editorous is on a crusade

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User:Editorous is attempting to push a POV on United States Merit Systems Protection Board about why and how it is so flawed. A block is in order. Also personal attacks. KonveyorBelt 17:50, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Continuing both logged in and logged out. Crusade is right. --NeilN 19:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, that appears to be a problem, including violations of neutral point of view per WP:NPOV, verifiability and reliable sources per WP:V and WP:RS. Be careful you don't get blocked for edit-warring, even if you are correct. Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Don't intend to revert any more but your advice is good. Others can sort it out. --NeilN 20:14, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Editor is blocked (thanks Barek) and thanks CombatWombat42 for removing stuff like, "In fact it is so bad that MSPB has no attorneys in its pro bono program...and it's been this way for years! For documentation of these facts, statements and statistics see www.mspb.gov or contact your congressman or congresswoman." from the article. --NeilN 20:41, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Mukherjee007 repeatedly removing Speedy Deletion tags

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Regarding Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Smooth Distortion, the SPA article-creator, Mukherjee007 (Talk,Contribs) has repeatedly removed deletion notice tags (despite warnings on his TP not to), at least five times at last count.,,,,. Pax 18:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Given them final warning as they dont appear to have been sufficiently warned. If they do it again WP:AIV should solve this quickly. Amortias (T)(C) 18:11, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Shookenlover

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hi,

Can we block for disrupition only and nuke recent contributions please. Amortias (T)(C) 18:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Shookenlover (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This template makes it easier for admins to check on the editors contributions. MarnetteD|Talk 18:44, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Reporting additional personal attacks by KazekageTR

KazekageTR (talk · contribs) has earlier appeared on my talk page after i listed him as a suspect in a sockpuppetry case, calling me a retard. This was a clear violation of WP:NPA as per section one of WP:WIAPA. I subsequently addressed this attack on this noticebord, which resulted in KazekageTR being warned on his talk page by User:SarekOfVulcan (talk · contribs), with the message that further attacks would result in a block. Now KazekageTR has reappeared on my talk page, erronously accusing me to Pro-Greek bias. This is a mild violation of section two (ad hominem) of WP:WIAPA. On the ongoing SPI, he has also threatened to wikihound be to find evidence that i'm a sockpuppet. This is a violation of section one (wikihounding) and two (threats) of WP:HARASSMENT, and a violation of section six (threats) of WP:WIAPA. More seriously, he has compared me to a "Gestapo operative" on the ongoing SPI. This is a clear violation of section four (Godwin's law) of WP:WIAPA. Krakkos (talk) 18:45, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

While a couple of KazekageTR's comments are a bit beyond the pale, I have to say, that's the most random collection of users I've ever seen in an SPI. Are you sure your hands are clean on this filing? --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 19:01, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@SarekOfVulcan:, i'm in the process of removing a number of suspects, including him, from the SPI. I will simultaneously add a more detailed explanation for why KazakeTR was initially listed. Krakkos (talk) 19:19, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

You are trying to justify your wrongful move. You are not 'in the process of removing a number of suspects' you are just doing whatever you like and accuse people without proof. Also WP:WIKIHOUND applies to you too, you know? You are accusing me without any solid evidence(only some 'look alike edits with the other sock puppets') and if you keep this up, that ad hominem thing could turn the tide towards you. IF you keep accusing me without some good evidence to back up your claim, i will fill a form against you cause i am really tired of your nonsense 'witch hunting' and consider it as WP:HARASSMENT. kazekagetr 20:07, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@KazekageTR and SarekOfVulcan: I have now removed KazekageTR (and others) as suspected socks of Tirgil34, despite KazekageTR's accusation that i'm not "not in the process of removing a number of suspects." WP:Assume good faith? For those interested, i have explained why KazekageTR was initially added as sock here. Krakkos (talk) 20:43, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm no expert in SPI but that list is pretty incredible. Many of those listed haven't edited since 2014 so, from my understanding, any CU would be stale anyway (feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken). Much of the rationale does look to be somewhat flimsy; the filing doesn't look to be well thought out. I'd say remove all the accounts that haven't edited in 6 months or so and those that have been linked as socks to other accounts. Blackmane (talk) 23:05, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

AIV backlog

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I would like to kindly request a little admin attention at WP:AIV. There is currently a backlog of several dozen reports. Thank you. Gnome de plume (talk) 20:52, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Heather Bresch

This article and a related controversy page have recently been brought to BLPN several times by Collect and myself. In the most recent string I suggested it was more appropriate for ANI at this time.

There seems to be a lot of personal attacks, trolling, assumptions of bad faith, combative editing and WP:NOTBUREAU that have created a toxic and un-productive environment on the article. For example, @Hipocrite: and @Nomoskedasticity: have both been borderline trolling me, by sarcastically saying their edits are for auction, that they can be paid to leave any article alone, and in Hipocrite's case asking if I was paid to defame him. Here the same two editors accuse me of spinning the article by intentionally omitting major controversies, but refuse to provide any sources regarding the alleged omissions and in other cases have accused me of being unethical, spinning the article and so on.

I don't feel this assumption of bad-faith is warranted, especially since I provided sources to verify beyond a doubt that the MBA controversy belongs on the page, pro-actively suggested adding COI concerns with her father and a debate about her tax inversion strategy. Additionally, they have repeatedly reverted well-sourced edits or edits supported by consensus (see @Jimbo:'s comments here), using very bureaucratic, technical rationales, like requiring consensus be established on the Talk page of the article, rather than noticeboards or Talk pages, or saying consensus is not clear enough.

Not doing the whole self-righteous charade of demanding blocks - just think it needs attention from editors experienced in handling this kind of drama.

Disclosure: Please note I have a disclosed COI. CorporateM (Talk) 21:47, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Let's see this ANI post for what it is: a paid editor is trying (at his client's behest) to make this BLP a more promotional piece and then complaining here when other editors don't agree that this is what should happen. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 23:24, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Hipocrite and Nomoskedasticity have both been warned previously for this type of conduct by User:Jehochman. These are also the type of comments that when an editor seeks help on an ANI board to deal with issues, that cause them to lose faith on Misplaced Pages and eventually quit. The sniping, specifically the comments about others and having been paid by someone to defame another is nearing harassment. Also Corporate, can you link us to where the consensus was at BLPN? I see some discussions but not like a full on consensus of the content. Tutelary (talk) 23:38, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@Tutelary:Within this diff are links to the BLPN post, two user Talk pages and an IRC respondent (no link for that last one obviously, but that was @DragonflySixtyseven: who made the edit after picking up on the IRC chat) that all agreed the prior controversy section was UNDUE (it was pretty obvious). Though there wasn't explicit consensus for exactly how to handle it (trim and merge or summary style), but it's this kind of editing that concerns me; where the two editors edit boldly, but then require an impossibly high margin of iron-clad consensus for anyone else to make changes and often find trivial or unsubstantiated reasons to reject edits from others.

It's worth noting that @Jehochman:'s warning was given after these edits, however it appears as though this may be representative of their editing conduct in general or at least in other COI situations and part of a long string of disputes between these two and Collect. CorporateM (Talk) 00:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have very much seen this type of editing before and it's even being stated within this thread that Hipocrite likes to argue while sniping comments at people. The comments about how you're apparently being paid to cast aspersions against him are not convincing and are starting to inhibit the ability to discuss this matter at ANI--which is a frequent problem here I might add. Also particularly because this is a BLP, they are afforded much large protection via the larger WP:BLP policy, the bar might be higher for sourcing. But regarding their editing habits in general, if their comments on ANI are any representation of how they argue on the talk page (without even looking at it), then they need to be barred from this topic. Tutelary (talk) 01:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Again, you have stated that I edited boldly against consensus. Please show me where I did such on the page. Use diffs. I'll be sending Mylan a bill for my time, by the way. Hipocrite (talk) 00:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Hipocrite is correct in that I referred to both of them collectively as if they were a single person, but some very specific comments may refer to just one or the other. CorporateM (Talk) 00:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So really you have no comment about me except that I don't like you whitewashing your clients? Which of what you wrote applies to me, specifically? This comment cost Mylan $50. Hipocrite (talk) 00:50, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Someone is being paid to take me to ANI? No thanks. Hipocrite (talk) 00:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC) Still further "they have repeatedly reverted well-sourced edits?" Where have I done so? This paid aspersion casting needs to stop. Hipocrite (talk) 00:13, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hipocrite, I thought you had better manners than that. Drmies (talk) 01:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Hipocrite, you aren't convincing anybdoy with this sort of argument. Please stop. Companies, like it or not, have an interest in seeing that their articles and their related biographies are accurate. We can't just blow them off when our articles have an impact on their real lives of people who work at these businesses. Please be patient and listen to whatever concerns are presented, and don't be disrespectful or dismissive. Jehochman 15:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Companies do NOT have an interest that their articles are "accurate". They have an interest that content about them shows them in a good light. Nobody gets a bonus or dividend payment because their Misplaced Pages article is "accurate". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• You know what, fuck it. I'll avoid all Mylan related topics from here-on-out. Enjoy Pepsipedia, brought to you by IBM. Hipocrite (talk) 15:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have never attempted to position her government lobbying as director of government relations as a philanthropic effort. On the contrary, I have provided excerpts from the source material to assist in making it more clear how the legislation benefits Mylan. I did mention on @Drmies: Talk page that editing patterns suggest the two editors may be colluding offline, but immediately struck-out the comment as unsubstantiated. Mylan does not know there is a discussion at ANI or that these two editors are giving me a hard time; my edits are my own.

I have not actually requested a ban, but suggested diplomatic intervention was needed. Someone would have to do a deeper dive into their editing to see if a BAN was needed, but off-the-cuff an IBAN with all disclosed COIs paid editors (the behavioral problems seems to be exclusive to paid editing at least for Hipocrite) seems worth considering. Again, someone would have to investigate their behavior in a broader sense than just this one article for that kind of thing. CorporateM (Talk) 16:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

As much as I dislike agreeing with a corporate anything, let alone a minion, I see no need to censure (or bitch at) CorpM here, who I believe has been going about this the proper way. The current version of the article isn't bad--I suppose this material, added by Nomoskedasticity is fine, but I don't rightly see why this material had to be removed. Either way, that's fussing over content, but getting all Pepsipedia over it is exaggerated and shows a tremendous lack of good faith. I mean, I suppose such lack of good faith with a COI editor is understandable, maybe, but it doesn't help us and our article. If Hipocrite stays away from this, that would be a good thing, if only to bring the temperature down. Drmies (talk) 19:27, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Sigh... I'd hoped this would slide past unnoticed, but now that you're standing on the mine, you're going to have to defuse it. I strongly sympathize with Hipocrite's position, in that I think CorporateM's proposed text, understandably enough, was meant to go just deep enough to make his client look good without really putting a full understanding of the circumstances as a priority - as I explained there, I think it tended to make activities sound altruistic that, though quite possibly of substantial benefit, ultimately served commercial ends. Unfortunately, I also have to recognize CorporateM's complaint about edits for auction. Taken in full, I think any reasonable person can see that Hipocrite is speaking rhetorically in the middle when he says "I think that all goes out the window when you could literally burn $100,000 with no life impact. You should rename this Cokeapedia, brought to you by Apple. So, no, it's not ethical for a billion dollar corporation to do anything more than say "please look at this article" once. Of course, if they were paying me, I'd think differently. I'll leave this topic area for $1,000, and argue whatever the subject wants for $5,000. Contact me via email this user for Bitcoin details! Wait, is that ethical? I'm so confused where the line is drawn. " Yet in cases like with Bill Cosby's alleged daughter, we've seen claims of "extortion" in the U.S. taken to ridiculous extremes, even against people who simply promised to tell the truth to the press. So I think that ANI may be obligated to think this one over very carefully, even put it to wider community/WMF consultation and write up a policy, in order to determine the best way to deal with an offer to be paid not to edit, and possibly take a hard line here that may involve topic-banning him from the article, despite his positive contributions. I don't desire anything bad to happen to Hipocrite, but the point is, now that process has been invoked, Misplaced Pages has to convince the public at large that there is no possible way that anyone can really threaten to slant your Misplaced Pages article against you unless he's paid off and get away with it; otherwise I fear that people in his position might actually be in some kind of legal risk, which would be much worse. Wnt (talk) 18:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks alleged

(Retitled to "Personal attacks alleged" from non-neutral "Personal attacks by QuackGuru". See wp:talknew. --doncram 13:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

QuackGuru has engaged in personal attacks. In violation of AGF and misrepresenting me and my edits. Contrary to warning diff he continues to post links to a closed WP:AN/I section that was closed no consensus in an effort to discredit me. The attacks are not on point, but personal, not directed to the topic, but me. This has no place on the talk pages of WP articles.

• His latest including a link to the closed WP:AN/I section in the edits comments. diff diff
• Previous linking of the section closed WP:AN/I in edit comments. diff
• He even uses a user page to hold the information so he can easily paste it. diff
• He has placed the link in comments on an admin's user page, and the edit is a pure attack.diff
• He has placed the link in the comments and the attack on a request for page protection that I made. diff

This has to stop, There are serious violations of WP:EQ including misrepresenting, AGF, and making the discussion on the other editor and not the topic and WP:HARASS for the persistently trying to discredit me over old and resolved WP:AN/I sections. Asking him to stop has done no good. Smearing another editor should not be done. AlbinoFerret 03:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So the first dif is "User:AlbinoFerret claims "You have not discussed one edit in the 19k characters you inserted." But I did discuss sources User:AlbinoFerret deleted. The response was "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." That is not a specific objection for excluding relevant information. User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve this page IMO. how is deleting numerous reliable sources improving this page? QuackGuru (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)"

I am not seeing anything ANI worthy there. Sorry Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@QuackGuru, thanks for pointing out I had the wrong diff. I have struck out the wrong one and placed the correct one. AlbinoFerret 03:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• This comment "WHO is to health what the UN is to government, useless" by User:AlbinoFerret makes me wonder if a topic ban WP:Boomerang would be useful though. See how consensus is that WHO is one of the best medical sources. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Bringing concerns to a noticeboard is what they are for ? Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 03:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That discussion already happened in the WP:AN/I QuackGuru keeps linking to and is now 5 months old. It is a content disagreement, and this focus of this section isnt on content, but the persistent personal attacks by QuackGuru. The noticeboard is only one place out of many, and it was the noticeboard for page protection, not a place to level personal attacks or discuss editors. AlbinoFerret 03:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Can someone please point out the personal attack? I do not immediately see the insult being directed. I think we are nearing 150 days of daily edit warring at this article so I recognize the tension. Blue Rasberry (talk) 04:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree BR, I don't see WP:NPA here. I do see unhelpful behaviour, not unidirectionally, including WP:IDHT, WP:Battleground and WP:NOTHERE. I fully understand AF's furstration at QG's massive undiscussed edits on a controversial topic, usually I find with reasonable content in them but lots of dross that doesn't add to the article as well. I also understand QG's frustration with AF undoing what is a large amount of work. But QG is persistently trying to discredit AF over old and resolved ANI threads. I don't know what can be done to reduce the tension at the e-cigarette family of Articles but I think some form of sanctions need to be handed out to those making it harder for productive collaboration to happen. SPACKlick (talk) 08:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think sanctions might be the way to go here since there are multiple problem editors. Many editors left and unwatched the article as it became toxic. Considering how often e-cigs have come up at WP:RSN where decent medical sources always seemed to be challenged by the same group of editors, I'm concerned there may be significant POVs running the discussion. The more problematic POV seems to be being critical specifically of sources that are critical of e-cigs. There are behavior issues tied to how editors are dealing with content, so it doesn't seem like it's easily addressed here at ANI where people will say it's just a content dispute and ignore the behavior problems within it. Kingofaces43 (talk) 18:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Bluerasberry While it is not classically defined WP:NPA it is WP:HARASS and the two are very close. AlbinoFerret 14:11, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• QuackGuru, it would be better to please keep this diff collection on your own computer, not Misplaced Pages. Thank you. Otherwise, I don't see harassment here, and certainly not personal attacks. I agree with Doc James there's nothing for admins to do. Bishonen | talk 16:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

Bishonen So, its ok to smear another editor by bringing up old AN/I sections, even those that were closed with no consensus of wrongdoing. Even on article talk pages and others in an attempt to discredit and smear another editor? AlbinoFerret 18:14, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Bringing up what you have stated before is not a smear. Possibly a topic ban of User:AlbinoFerret would improve things. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I do think you may be right, that at least a temporary (perhaps 3 month) TBAN from electronic cigarette articles would be good for AlbinoFerret's equilibrium. This is an issue where advocates are running well ahead of the evidence, and this is necessarily a source of friction and controversy. The Misplaced Pages articles are a classic case of WP:TRUTH. Guy (Help!) 20:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with considering a temp TBAN. I had a discussion with AF on my talk page awhile back about them being too locked-in to the topic and not being able to step back. Looking at the current situation I do think it would be helpful to both AF and the topic if they had a break. The previous ANI on AF specifically said there was no consensus at the time on an action, but that is very different from saying there wasn't a behavior problem. I think AF definitely has the potential to approach things more evenly (this conversation did give me some hope), but they really need to step out of their single topic and get experience in less contentious topics since their posting history looks like a WP:SPA right now.Kingofaces43 (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not a WP:SPA, I edit other pages and have other interests. AlbinoFerret 21:39, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@Doc James, The whole other section was a smear campaign, started by you. All based on content disputes. Had it resulted in a finding against me, perhaps it could be used here. But it didnt, and talk pages of articles are not the place to try and bring up dirt on another editor. AlbinoFerret 21:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Some of what Albino says is valid, in that this is the proper forum for bringing the list of diffs - not article Talk pages or admin Talk pages. Deploying the list in that way is harassment-y and I think QG should be warned to address behavior issues in appropriate venues going forward. However I don't agree with anything else Albino has written. (particularly his claim that it was not valid to link to the ANI section concerning a topic ban against him; we all know that many ANIs lose focus and become sprawling, uncloseable messes, as that one did. There was plenty of solid feedback on Albino's behavior in that ANI, however, and linking to it is OK.) Jytdog (talk) 21:06, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• it appears that QuackGuru has not taken down the page tracking Albino's behavior yet, despite being advised to do so by an admin, which is not good. QG, it is fine to build such a list but you have to deploy it and then get rid of it. You may have not been ready to use it but your hand is forced now. So - either just delete it, or post it here with a request for admin or community action against Albino, and then delete it. But either way, it should go. Jytdog (talk) 20:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Bishonen, I put a hat on it for now. Is this good enough for now or do you still prefer I blank the page. I'm not done with it. This will go to arbcom if admins don't do anything soon. QuackGuru (talk) 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru see WP:POLEMIC - it is OK to compile a list of behaviors in your userspace but you must use it timely. That is why i said that your hand has been forced, and you have to use it and lose it, or just lose it. It seems like you have enough there to request the community to topic-ban, and this is the place to do that. The last one could have potentially succeeded but it was lost in that totally sprawling ANI. But i will get out of the way and let bish answer. Jytdog (talk) 21:10, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Quackguru, for you to blank it yourself would be an acceptable compromise, from where I stand, between the hat and putting a speedy tag on it. Blanking isn't a problem, is it? The material would still be at your fingertips via the history. Bishonen | talk 22:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC).

A short time ago I did blank the page. QuackGuru (talk) 22:34, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed Block for QuackGuru

QuackGuru has a long history of blocks and banns log including a past block for personal attacks and harassment. He appears to be a WP:SPA that focuses on controversial medical articles. Past short banns and blocks have done no good. I proposed a indefinite block or alternately a one year block. He has engaged in harassment WP:HARASS again. His actions to remove some of the harassment dont go far enough, the edit summaries are still there as well as the attacks on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 13:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:AlbinoFerret proposed the same thing before and that went nowhere fast. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#Block_or_Ban. A return WP:BOOMERANG will resolve the issue at hand. QuackGuru (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I endorse an immediate block for QuackGuru for this edit. I note that QuackGuru regards me as WP:INVOLVED per this section of his talk page. It lists a collection of dubious statements and untrue allegations against me, and has done since December 2014 in violation of WP:POLEMIC. If QG has issues with me I request that they address them in the proper way. While I do not accept that I am INVOLVED here, I do request that another admin make the block. --John (talk) 19:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

QuackGuru has no right to comment on AlbinoFerret's private life whatsoever, let alone assume he's lying about things QuackGuru can't know anything about. I've warned him. Bishonen | talk 19:41, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

Proposed topic ban for AlbinoFerret

User:AlbinoFerret is making a lot of comments and edits to e-cig related pages. See https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Special:Contributions/AlbinoFerret&offset=&limit=500&target=AlbinoFerret See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:AlbinoFerret for previous behaviour issues. AlbinoFerret tried to hide Environmental impact section from a reliable source from the page. He eventually tried to delete some of the text. AlbinoFerret deleted a number of reliable sources. AlbinoFerret claims "Reliability does not guarantee inclusion." But AlbinoFerret has not given a specific reason to exclude relevant information about safety. WP:COMPETENCE is not the issue IMO. AlbinoFerret has turned the e-cig pages into a WP:BATTLEGROUND. AlbinoFerret is not the only problematic editor at these pages. Some of the e-cig enthusiasts are not here to improve the e-cig pages. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive867#E-cig_editors for background information on this. Something needs to be done to prevent this from happening over and over again. QuackGuru (talk) 21:22, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Those were edits in a content dispute. Some of them over 2 months old. This is not about content, but your actions on talk pages. AlbinoFerret 21:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

This is also about you deleting relevant content you find offensive. AlbinoFerret has a repeated pattern of trying to delete pertinent information about safety. AlbinoFerret is unable to formulate a logical reason for excluding the text. QuackGuru (talk) 21:55, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a misstatement. There are valid reasons why the content was removed all covered under talk page sections.Here is a huge one. But this isnt a content dispute, this is a discussion of harassment that happened because you decided to smear me on talk pages. As for WP:BATTLEGROUND, I think you have done enough with building over 19000 character in edits in secret for a month, not discussing any of it on the talk pages, and then adding it, and reverting it back in. On such a contentious article, that should never have happened WP:CAUTIOUS In fact looking at the pages history, you are still planning more because of recient additions, but none of them have been brought to the talk page. AlbinoFerret 22:03, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino you are digging your hole deeper by making spurious complaints. per the userpage guideline WP:UPYES it is totally fine to draft article content in userspace. Jytdog (talk) 22:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Its not spurious, but the basis of WP, Consensus. But there is no consensus in building 19000 character edits in private, and making one 16k edit at once. There was no discussion on the addition, no post on the talk pages directing the other editors to it to look over. This has been done before on the main e-cig page. Granted there is nothing wrong with building edits on a sandbox, but a edit that is 1/3rd the size of the page should have been discussed. WP:CAUTIOUS AlbinoFerret 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I think an indef topic ban is most appropriate rather than a short-term topic ban. It is clear that User:AlbinoFerret is not here to improve the e-cig pages. QuackGuru (talk) 23:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Really, and what evidence exactly do you present in support of that? Other than the fact that you have disagreements with AF over content which is neither here nor there, I can't see that you've stated any whatsoever.Levelledout (talk) 23:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• support indef topic ban AlbinoFerret is not here and is WP:TENDENTIOUS. And this has been going on for a long time. And I see no reason to believe it will improve. Many chances have been given and few have been taken. It's time for this to stop. Cloudjpk (talk) 23:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support I would support a one year topic ban. Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:38, 5 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support per Doc James. BMK (talk) 00:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support one year topic ban for Albinoferret. There are many issues here and AF is disrupting any genuine attempts to improve the articles, so much that it is bordering on WP:SPA. AF has previously done good work on other articles and I believe AF's and everyone else's time could be spent much better. -- CFCF 🍌 (email) 00:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This is nothing more than a content dispute. With diff's gathered over months showing a content dispute. All of which have talk page sections dealing with the content link1 link2 link3. The only thing this will accomplish is silence a active editor from the article that disagrees with some content, that press releases diff should not be used for medical content or problems with the sources. In fact one post above me, Doc James, lists a reason for banning me is that "Hopefully in that time evidence will become more clear and the topic less controversial.". AlbinoFerret 00:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Albino "the evidence" that Doc James is referring to, is medical evidence about risks of e-cigs. I know that a huge focus of yours, has been reducing the amount of what you call "speculation" in the article... but what is, in fact, statements about the unfolding medical consensus on risks. What he meant is that when the science is more solid and the scientific debate settles, there will be less controversy, and that in a year you should have even weaker grounds on which to be disruptive. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it is speculation. From the Chang, H. (2014). "Research gaps related to the environmental impacts of electronic cigarettes" source, the topic of the section you linked to "No studies specifically evaluated the environmental impacts of e-cigarette manufacturing; issues related to use of resources, assembly, nicotine source, tobacco cultivation and global production". Unfolding evidence? More like a lot of opinions to me, not based on anything, and the lone "review" of its kind. Because apparently it didnt review any studies as it says none exist. Its given its own section? Huge WP:WEIGHT issue here. Being the only source of its kind, what it reviewed is, basically nothing. This is a perfect example of a content dispute, and diffs 157-161 in QuackGurus post above, which are about three months old. AlbinoFerret13:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say that the fact that you wrote the above, is a perfect example of your persistence in objecting, repeatedly and over a long period of time, to the inclusion of reasonable and well sourced content about health risks being added to the articles, by editors who are very experienced in dealing with health matters in WP. That you bring this up again, even here and now, is exactly why I support the topic ban. You know, I looked and looked, but I couldn't find a diff for this, but didn't you write somewhere that you care about this so much because your wife really needed to quit smoking and tried and tried and couldn't, and it was e-cigs that finally helped her do it? If I have that wrong, I apologize. Jytdog (talk) 15:14, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say to that, that everyone is entitled to their opinions. But consensus is how WP is edited. Others have reasons to include this in the article, where it has stayed for the last three months or so. That does not mean I dont think its a WP:WEIGHT issue. It means that its included even though I think it has a weight issue. What you dont have is actions pointing to advocacy. You have a difference of opinion on content. AlbinoFerret 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I think DocJames can likely speak for himself but anyway Jytdog, the "unfolding medical consensus" is basically that the short term risks are pretty low and that the long term risks should theoretically also be low. The only "speculation" is exactly how low the long-term risks are. If you are saying that in a years time it will be proven that e-cigarettes are more harmful, well that is just basically crystal-ball stuff. We shouldn't really be discussing content here, but since it seems to be being used as evidence so it seems somewhat necessary. Just demonstrates that this is a content dispute really.Levelledout (talk) 14:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

nope you are missing the point; this is about Albino's behavior. i won't belabor this. Jytdog (talk) 15:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support in my view the prior proposal to topic ban AlbinoFerret (which I supported) would have succeeded, except it turned into a sprawling mess and was closed out of hopelessness. This one is squarely focused. AlbinoFerret is a WP:SPA who wages an WP:ADVOCACY campaign favorable to e-cigs, and has been relentless in opposing the addition of well-sourced content about health risks. That pattern is clear from difs above and in the prior ANI. I do not intend this to be cruel, but he has said he is housebound and edits WP to keep himself sane (which I am very sympathetic toward) but still, WP:NOTTHERAPY - and especially not when, combined with advocacy, his editing is disruptive. (I had said this to him directly before.) He is the paradigm of disruptive advocacy on this article. WP is vast - let Albino edit elsewhere and not disrupt this topic any more. Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • I am far from a SPA, I am a member of WikiProject Citation cleanup and also edit Bitcoin. As for WP:NOTTHERAPY, sane as in keeping active, you can only watch so many daytime talk shows or soap operas. AlbinoFerret 00:53, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support topic ban per Jytdog. I don't have a strong opinion about the duration, but a year seems about right. Bishonen | talk 00:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC).
• Oppose The situation has to be understood in the context of the protracted, bitter content dispute that is e-cigarette articles. It has already been said several times that topic-banning AF would help. Yes it would help, it would help those editors that have been in a content dispute with AF for months on end. I think almost everybody who has supported this proposal so far is either moderately or highly involved in the said content dispute. I think that AF has raised some genuine issues here, did in fact originally raise some genuine issues on the article talk page with QG going about things in a covert way and dumping 20k edits into articles without so much as notification. QG attacked AF on the article page which according to WP:PERSONAL is not allowed. For this to be turned back round on AF is very harsh and unjust I think. It also seems to be almost entirely without substance.Levelledout (talk) 00:52, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Considering that 57% of your edits (257/450 - with 233 to Talk:Electronic cigarette???) are to articles or talk pages about electronic cigarettes, it seems not impossible that you are a SPA as well, perhaps one with a COI. BMK (talk) 03:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Since when is a roughly 50/50 (haven't been bothered to check the exact amount) split between e-cig and other articles considered a single purpose account? What about editors that edit medical articles far more than I actually edit e-cig articles? Or is that perfectly OK I take it? Your COI accusation is spurious, groundless and you have no right to make it. Helps deflect some attention and blame though I suppose.Levelledout (talk) 12:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, you don't think that 57% of your edits going to one very specific subject – electronic cigarettes – and 43% going to a variety of other topics is an pretty good indication that you're here primarily to edit about that one subject? I would beg to differ, I think it's a damn good marker. It's not like your 57% is going to some broad area, like military history, or New York City or films, it's going to electronic cigarettes.

Like Bishonen, whose comment is just below this, I don't believe that any of my edits has been to articles on that subject (but I could be wrong, with over 150,000 edits you do lose track of a few in the course of almost 10 years), but I know advocacy when I see it ... and I've got pretty good radar for SPAs and socks as well. 16:12, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've already told you what I think so I'll leave it at that for now. I'm not sure what you having made 150,000 edits and being on Misplaced Pages for 10 years has got to do with anything either.Levelledout (talk) 16:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You "think" almost everyone who has supported the topic ban is involved in the content dispute? Please don't hazard tendentious guesses about things that could be checked with a little research. Here, I'll help you with one item: I for my part have barely heard of e-cigarettes. I'm supporting the topic ban because I can recognize advocacy, at least when it's as obvious as this. Bishonen | talk 12:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC).

I did not do an in depth analysis before I posted of course, nor can you reasonably expect me to before every post. But I do know that of the posters above QuackGuru (the proposer of the ban) and Doc James are highly involved and Cloudjpk, CFCF and Jytdog have all contributed to e-cig articles and have tended to be on the opposing side of the content dispute to Albino Ferret.Levelledout (talk) 13:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, actually, we can expect you to do some due diligence before you make claims about other editors' motivations. BMK (talk) 16:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As I said clearly enough for you to understand I knew with a reasonable degree of certainty that 5/7 editors were involved all along. I thought it was probably 6/7, hence "almost all" which was an approximation. Nobody was mentioned personally and it turned out to be 5/7. Big deal. Can we move on from this nonsense now please?Levelledout (talk) 21:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If it's "nonsense", it your nonsense, not mine. Are all the supporting editors below also sworn enemies of AlbinoFerret? If not, doesn't that change your !vote, since it was based on the supposed involvement of the supporting editors? And since you're on the other side of the debate as an SPA, should we discount your !vote as you would like us to discount those editors above who you say are involved?

No, what was nonsense was your initial comment, which appears to me to have been disingenuous. BMK (talk) 23:44, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Despite the fact that you obviously do not accept this, I am entitled to my original opinion. I stand by it and with all due respect, do not care what you think.Levelledout (talk) 00:56, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose The editors who want AF banned mostly seem to be involved in a content dispute with him, and some of them look to be pushing their own point of view pretty hard. I had a look at everyone's block logs and QuackGuru seems to be a serious problem editor. Instead of being turned into a witch hunt against AF I think this should return to the question of what needs to be done about QuackGuru and those who support him.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 02:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @InfiniteBratwurst: So, you took your 56 edits and your vast 9 weeks of Misplaced Pages experience and went looking into other editor's block logs in order to come here, !vote oppose, and poison some wells with the dirty little secrets you uncovered there? (How does an editor with 56 edits find out about block logs, anyway? I was here for quite a while before I heard about them.) You complain that the editors supporting the topic ban are involved in a content dispute with AF, but you don't mention that the article you have edited the most. with more than double the edits of the next-most article, is Safety of electronic cigarettes, that its talk page is the one you've edited the most, the seoncd-most being Talk:Electronic cigarette -- but I assume you'll tell us that, unlike the other editors commenting here, you are uninvolved, you are totally neutral, and your vote is in no way influenced by your personal views. Everyone else's is, of course, but not yours. BMK (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
    • @BMK: WP:DBAD — Preceding unsigned comment added by InfiniteBratwurst (talk • contribs) 11:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
      • Wow!!!! 9 weeks here, less than 60 edits, and you cite an obscure essay from Meta. The closing admin should note with pride what an extremely knowledgeable newbie InfiniteBratwurst is!!!! BMK (talk) 12:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
        • I didn't cite anything. I idly wondered if there was a WP:DICK, because you're being one, and guess what I found? Now maybe you could stop with the childish sneering and personal attacks, and try saying something constructive.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 12:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Oh, I think pointing out your very interesting, if short, history is quite constructive indeed. BMK (talk) 16:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
            • User:Beyond My Ken, InfiniteBratwurst is actually CheesyAppleFlake. See Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive864#User:CheesyAppleFlake. QuackGuru (talk) 17:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
              • I can't wait to see you prove that.--InfiniteBratwurst (talk) 19:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
                • QuackGuru if there is a case to be made, please make it at WP:SPI and post here. Otherwise please don't add distraction. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
                  • • Yup once you have SPI confirmation you can discuss. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 19:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Whatever good AlbinoFerret does tending the electronic cigarette articles is outweighed by the persistent puffing-up of e-cigs as safer than apple pie. Since September 2014, AF has made 2000 talk page comments at the three e-cig articles, and 250 comments here at ANI—it's time to look for other topics. Johnuniq (talk) 07:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose - Send to ArbCom - This has been going on from time to time for months. This is the sort of content dispute compounded by conduct issues (tendentious editing) for which a full evidentiary hearing by ArbCom works better than letting the loudest editors at a noticeboard establish consensus. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support (Disclosure: AF has supported sanctions against me in another ongoing RFc. But I have supported a topic ban for AF on this topic on several previous occassions). The problem here is that many of the editors on this article are here to advocate for electronic cigarettes rather than being here to build an encyclopedia. I think AF is basically a good guy, but it is not healthy for the encyclopedia to have editors who spend 8 or more hours a day focused on making sure that a single article projects a specific POV. I'll add that I would support a similar topic ban for any editor for whom edits to electronic cigarette articles comprise more than 60% of their total edits over the last 3 months. Its not personal, its just that this article has attracted too many editors who are there to promote a specific POV. Formerly 98 (talk) 15:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per the reasons stated by Levelledout. This is part content dispute and part piling on by those with a particular POV. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 15:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support. Not involved in the articles themselves or the content dispute aside from commenting on a few posts brought to WP:RSN. I wouldn't suggest any longer than a year for a ban though as it's generally better to give people a chance. The idea that this is just a content dispute so the behavior issues should be ignored is extremely disingenuous. There are also involved editors here who oppose the ban on grounds of it being a "content dispute", but behavior problems are behavior problems whether there is a content dispute or not. It's apparent there is a problem here with AF considering how much they focus on the topic. One could argue whether they fit the criteria of an WP:SPA or not with brief edits in a couple other articles, but there is definitely advocacy apparent here. Uninvolved editors here are seeing that problem, so I'd highly suggest weighing that when determining community consensus. I do agree with Robert McClenon that the topic will probably need to be considered at ArbCom at some point, but this is one user that keeps coming up and seems like it could be handled here. Kingofaces43 (talk) 17:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Very weak support There are probably enough behavioral problems amongst many editors that an arbitration case would be the best way to settle this. Otherwise, I think a topic ban is an acceptable bandaid, though I'd argue for a shorter duration, like 6 months, and revisit a more long term solution if the behavior resumes. AniMate 20:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support a topic ban of one year for Albino Ferret from discussing the subject of Electronic cigarettes on any page in the English Misplaced Pages. The reason is largely the one given by Bishonen (overly intense advocacy). Possibly one or more other users will need a topic ban too. Cardamon (talk) 22:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support topic ban of 3 months (preferred) or 1 year from articles on electronic cigarettes, broadly construed, but not indefinite. AF shows some signs of wanting to edit other articles, let's see some evidence of constructive contributions outside this topic area. Guy (Help!) 23:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Disruption on an AfD?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Under normal circumstances are nominators allowed to relist deletion debates? Antigng has so for relisted twice Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Kyon, an article the editor had nominated for deletion. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Deletion_process#Closing_discussions says "Usually, both closing and relisting are administrator actions." --David Biddulph (talk) 03:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

That's what I thought, something had seemed off. Usually when an editor does a relisting that I have seen they are uninvolved. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 03:36, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Non-admin closures are not forbidden, so I don't see any problem with a non-admin relisting, per se. No, the real problem here is the that re-lister is involved, since they are the nominator. It seems to me that the re-lister should ideally be uninvolved, whether an admin or a non-admin. BMK (talk) 04:31, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

The consensus is clearly to redirect, so I'd close it myself, but I'll be damned if I can figure out how to do it. BMK (talk) 04:37, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

User Editor605 is NOTHERE, long term abuse

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reporting Editor605 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) as WP:NOTHERE. Since May 2013, this user has been slowly vandalizing cartoon-related articles. They have amassed 13 templated warnings on their talk page plus a few more non-templated warnings. This user inserts unsourced info, hoax info, and general vandalizes. I am requesting this user be sitebanned as NOTHERE and long term abuse. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Wow, this has gone on for quite long enough. Blocked and image uploads nuked. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict): I'm not surprised. This editor has been skirting scrutiny for quite some time. They rarely engage in discussion, and they have little grasp of community standards. Not sure formal "sitebanning" is the way to go. When I tried that with other disruptive users in the past, the sentiment was that indeffing was good enough, and that the user's edits could still be reverted on sight per WP:REVERTBAN if other socks were discovered, for indeffed users are de facto banned. No sense giving the kid a bragging token. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 06:04, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

@The Blade of the Northern Lights: Thank you.

@Cyphoidbomb: Sorry, yeah. I get my terms confused sometimes. Meant "block" not "ban". And that's what TBotNL did. Thanks for dealing with this user in the past. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 06:17, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Top Hat Trading Limited recreated again

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The user continues to recreate the article Top Hat Trading Limited (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views). The user has claimed to have added additional material to resolve the issues in the AfD (which, admittedly, had minimal participation) - but all they have actually added since the version that was deleted via the AfD is a single press release that is hosted at digitaljournal.com. All the other sources are identical.

The user seems to believe that they fixed the issue because they have now provided "The complete information of magazine articles was added, included correct publish date and publisher's of articles.", however, as can be viewed in the version deleted at the time of the AfD, the references are identical.

I have no problem with the user trying to go through WP:DELREV or converting the article to a draft to be improved (if they can be made to understand that simply adding a press release isn't really an improvement). But I think it's a bad idea for me to address them directly right now as I'm both tired (getting late here) and frustrated enough from my prior interaction of not getting through to the user. So, I would prefer to leave it to someone else to try to communicate with them this time. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 06:08, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Which user? --IJBall (talk) 06:26, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that would help. The user involved is Johnf1982 (talk · contribs). I had a short discussions on the now deleted talk page of the article a couple days ago, but I couldn't seem to make progress explaining the issues (or they were refusing to hear them). Perhaps someone else can better explain how they can best proceed. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 06:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I was review and editing the article, and I press the save page button but it was not intentional. Sorry for that, I don't will edit article in future... Thanks! Johnf1982 (talk) 06:47, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. This is behaviour that was previously addressed by a Request for comment in 2012.

Since that time, Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors. Many are vandalism (no problem), but many are good faith edits. There are far too many examples to document here, so I have restricted examples to just those from the past three weeks.

17th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

This was a good faith and basically correct edit. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds of being 'ungrammatical and out of place'. It could easily have been made gramatical and was exactly where it needed to be.

18th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

This was a good faith edit and technically correct. It was reverted on the tenuous grounds that the output is not light despite infra-red often being described as "infra-red light" as indeed it is throughout the rest of the article. Further: infra-red light emitting diodes are described as precisely that - "light emitting diodes". The revert actually made the article worse because it no longer told the reader what the 900 nm output is (could be an electrical signal for example).

25th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

The article was PRODed by Wtshymnski. The IP editor challenged the PROD by deleting it as he is perfectly entitled to do. WTS simply reverted the deletion doubtless because he believes that IP address editors should not be allowed to challenge PRODs even though they are. (The WP:PROD procedure clearly states that a PROD is aborted if the tag is deleted and it must not be rePRODed.)

25th Feb

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

The IP editor's edit must be assumed by the WP:AGF policy to be a good faith edit, there being no evidence to the contrary. Nevertheless, WTS has, characteristically not assumed the required good faith by reverting the edit as 'vandalism', and has done so by copy-pasting back an old version of the article (intermediate edits preventing a stright 'undo'). In his haste to revert yet another IP address editor, WTS also pasted back a spelling mistake and a 'coauthors' parameter to a CS1 template which is deprecated. Thus WTS corrected one error but reintroduced two.

2nd Mar

IP edit:

Wtshymanski revert:

Again a potentially good faith edit from an IP address editor . Once again, WTS makes no pretence at assuming that the edit is good faith and it is dismissed as vandalism. Another editor, Andy Dingley independently made the same point on Wtshymanski's talk page. Nothing can be inferred from the editing history as the IP address resolves to a college in India so it is anybody's guess how many real users are behind it.

It is known that Misplaced Pages is always wanting to recruit productive editors for the project. Inevitably, many potential editors will start as IP address editors before creating an account - provided they find the environment welcoming. Wtshymanski has long held the view that IP address editors should not be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages and has said so (see RfC referenced above for more). This may be Wtshymanski's view but it is known that it is not the view of the project and Wtshymanski has no right to impose his view in the face of the project's

IP address editors can be productive and offer quality editing to the project. Deliberate wholesale reverting such edits does not provide the welcoming environment, that such editors need if they are to be encouraged to staty.

As evidence: a quick scan produces this IP address's contributions . This editor has made good quality contributions on UK parliamentary procedure; seems to understand the subject and the contributions have been well referenced. I suspect this may be an experienced editor, but if it is, I have not been able to link the address with any other or an account. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 16:49, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Totally agree with DieSwartzPunkt The diffs shown, show the removals called vandalism and they're not, further when he's challenged by a non-ip user, he's been letting the edits stand. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:00, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

18 Feb IP edit was absolutely correct and Wtshymanski revert is an error, because what it emits is light (everything that involves photon is light). Some part of the entire light band is visible, but other invisible parts are also called.

I agree with DieSwartzPunkt's observation for all other instances too. – nafSadh did say 17:44, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• What's the point in this ANI post? Is this an "incident"? Maybe. What administrator action is desired here though?

Once upon a time we had WP:WQA and WP:RFC/U. Neither of them were likely to be effective (WP:Requests_for_comment/Wtshymanski wasn't), but at least they were an attempt by WP to have a means of resolving such issues. Admins won't act over such issues - it would involve making value judgements about other editors and that never happens. Even when it's not a popular editor who can rally their clique of supporters.

WP needs to restore WQA, RFC/U or something else in that line. This ANI post won't achieve that much though. Wtshymanski will, as always, back off for just long enough to dodge the bullet (see the RFCU closing comments) and then will be back, just the same as before. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Not proven The accusation is:

"Wtshymanski is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering-based articles that he routinely watches." (typo and punctuation corrected)

and, doubling down, just in case we might have thought the meaning was open to interpretation:

"Wtshymanski has continued to systematically revert any and all edits made by IP address editors." (emphasis was in the original)

But a quick perusal of the history of each of the pages diff'd above will show many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski. Therefore the claim of "any" is specious. Some were let stand, some were reverted by others, "others" not excepting Andy Dingly and DieSwartzPunkt. There are also many edits by IPs that were reverted by W. with completely defensible reasons and edit summaries.

Perhaps W. is too quick to assume that IPs' edits are wrong. (From my own experience, given the number of IPs' edits I've corrected that were wrong, this would not be an unreasonable bias on W.'s part.) I believe AD and DSP are similarly too eager to find fault with W.'s edits, and this patently absurd accusation of "any and all" is a result. Jeh (talk) 20:24, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"many edits by IPs that were not reverted by Wtshymanski."

So because he didn't get all of them, his behaviour over the ones that he did revert should be discounted?

This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits. It's about his assumption that for any anon edit he reverts (frequently a justified revert) he assumes that it's deliberate vandalism, and he assumes this because of who made it, not the quality of the edit. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:40, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

"This isn't about Wtshymanski reverting anon edits." That's odd, because that's exactly what you DSP said it was about. If it's really about his over-use of the vandalism charge, then you DSP should have said that from the beginning. And then every one of your DSP's your diffs needs to show an edit summary by W. with a demonstrably unjust accusation of vandalism, or they don't support your position. If it turns out that a clear majority of W's edits to IPs' edits do not include an unjust accusation of vandalism, your case gets rather weak. Jeh (talk) 20:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Jeh, I know that you're just about the only friend Wtshymanski has round here, so it's not surprising that you've rushed to defend him. However please actually read this post first. I didn't raise this. I haven't posted any diffs, so I don't know which diffs you're complaining about. Mind, it would have to be very blinkered to not see the problem with what he's doing. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Correct you are. I missed the correct attribution among all the rest of the periodic Wtshymanski pile-on. I have edited my above accordingly. But as for your "I don't know which diffs" claim, there is only one set associated with the complaint. So I think that if you were to hazard a guess as to which diffs in this talk page section I'm referring to, you'd either be correct, or you'd have to pretend to be a complete idiot. And we all know you are not that, so please drop the "I don't know what you're referring to" act. You're smarter than that, and I'd thank you to assume that I'm smart enough to not buy it. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You claimed that Wtshymanski had allowed some IP edits to stand, but failed to provide any diffs. In the short discussion that I had on this at Wtshymanski's talk page, he made the same claim. He then obliged with a single diff that supported that position. But he had to go all the way back to 2007 to find it. There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand, but as they are obvious corrections of errors, reverting them would be vandalism in itself (though as in case four above, that is not always an obstacle). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, please. You took that "2007" bit seriously?

So. "There are examples of IP edits being allowed to stand." Your words. Doesn't that rather contradict your accusation? Do I have to quote it yet again, to remind you of what it was? Do you understand what it takes to disprove a universal claim? It takes one counterexample. One.

The first diff above is from DC motor. From the first page of 50 edits, working from the bottom (I am not counting IP edits that were clearly vandalism, either reverted by W. or otherwise):

IP made stylistic wording changes to picture caption. W. did not revert.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

IP wikilinked Hybrid car. W. did not revert.

IP made minor grammar correction. W. did not revert.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

minor word correction by IP. Nobody reverted.

vandalism by IP. Rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. Rv by Wtshymanski.

IP added redlinks. Rv by Andy Dingley.

vandalism by IP (added blank lines). Rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. Rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by IP. rv by someone else.

vandalism by IP. rv by ClueBot.

vandalism by same IP as above. Rv by someone else.

IP removed a blank line (non-rendering edit). Not reverted that I could find.

Wtshymanski edit. Unrelated to previous IP edits.

vandalism by IP (blanking). Fixed by ClueBot.

IP added an ungrammatic sentence: "It has very high starting resistance so that it would use in that kind of equipments which needs a very high starting torque." Wtshymanski reverted with comment "out of place unclear and ungrammatical" (this is the rv DSP complained about).

minor grammatical correction by IP. Wording improved by me.

Counts:

19 edits by IPs total (I am counting successive edits by the same IP, with none intervening, as just one).

11 of these were vandalism. Of those, ONE was reverted by Wtshymanski.

6 were good edits. Of those, W. reverted NONE. Two of them were significant changes to content.

1 was a good faith but erroneous edit, reverted by Andy Dingley.

1 was what I would call "legitimately problematic". Wtshymanski reverted it. Yes, it could have been improved.

It seems clear to me that W., far from reverting "any and all" edits by IPs as you accused, was far more selective. He in fact reverted only one of 11 IPs' vandalism edits, one problematic edit, and none of six good edits. I would say that the evidence from this article, one of those you complained about, refutes your accusation rather soundly. The evidence does not even support a claim of "W. erroneously reverts most IP edits", with or without an accusation of vandalism. (I would also say that it shows there is ample reason to view IP edits with a particularly skeptical eye.)

But you are the one making the claim, so you are the one who should be providing complete summaries of recent diffs. Not just a few cherry-picked examples. Jeh (talk) 14:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The above is non-evidence. 12 edits were reverted by others. That proves nothing except that someone beat Wtshymanski to the punch in each case. Even Wtshymanski presumably sleeps and works from time to time. As already stated, Wtshymanski usually does not revert an edit, if it leaves the article wrong (6 edits). And the last 'legitimately problematic' one, is similar to case 1 of this complaint. 'It could have been improved'. Yes, and Wtshymanski is as capable of improving it as anyone else, but if the edit had been left, someone would have improved it.

I have not 'cherry-picked' evidence as you claim. I have listed every IP address revert since 17th Feb. If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled. But this was stated in the original complaint. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, I provided the diffs you asked for, and you moved the goalposts. But then you want to stick by the original complaint? The original complaint was:

"Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) is routinely reverting any edits made by IP address editors in any of the (mainly) engineering based artcles that he routinely watches. "

That has been disproven (with great ease, just as most generalizations can be). You listed "every IP address revert since 17 Feb"? And you found a grand total of five? W. has made 'prox 700 edits since 17 Feb. So less than 1% of W's edits in the last three weeks were reverts of IP edits that you think were unjustly described as vandalism? You're going to have to find much more compelling evidence than that.

"If I had provided a 'complete' list of sumaries as you suggest, this ANI would still be being compiled." So you can find a few examples out of several hundred edits, not mention that they're picked out of seven hundred edits, and you think that makes your case? This has all the earmarks of a witch-hunt. Makes me wonder if the evidence in W.'s other ANI, etc., cases, at least the ones brought by DSP, AD, and GM was as tenuous? Jeh (talk) 18:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the "problematic edit" by the IP (severe grammar problem) was the one you listed. Yes, it could have been improved. The fact remains that W.'s revert of the IP's edit left the article better than it had been after the IP. So we have a justified edit by W., and your complaint is that he should have done more. Got it. Jeh (talk) 18:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Andy, above you asked (?) what the point is. I think you or someone should ask for something specific. I looked at W's block log and this seems to be an annual affair (that somehow skipped last spring). The first block for this in 2012 was a day; the block for this in 2013 was a week. There is a clear pattern of the same behavior continuing, which is a violation of AGF and is DISRUPTIVE. So you should propose a longer time-limited block (say 2 months?) or perhaps an indef. It would probably take community consensus for either, and this is indeed the place to propose that and get consensus for it. But in the block proposal you should make a good, concise, ANI-ready statement of the case, if you want it to succeed. That is my advice anyway. Jytdog (talk) 20:51, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I have better things to do than to read and memorise Wtshymanski's block log. If he has been formally warned not to behave just like he's doing here, and he's been blocked for doing it previously, then I'd agree that it might be useful for an admin to follow that precedent and act accordingly. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:32, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

You questioned whether this was an incident. With the demise of the RfC/U system, the only avenue now available to address user's behavioural issues is here at ANI (and the defunct RfC/U procedure says so). If nothing happens as a result of this, then I can only assume that the admins are granting open season on reverting other editors' posts. That may not be there intent, but it will certainly be the message. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 11:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I would only ask that the admins look at the pattern of behavior here:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge

Please note that some incidents that would no doubt have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so the block log does not tell the whole story.

Also note that when Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". Please don't fall for it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 07:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Guy's post above underlines a very major problem. The administrators are (unwittingly) exacerbating the problem. A running feature in the long history of these behavioral disputes and complaints is that whenever the administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his attitude and behavior towards other Misplaced Pages users. I have lost count of the number of times, that some editor has criticised Wtshymanski on his talk page only for Wtshymanski to respond that his attitude has already been taken to ANI (or wherever) with no action and therefore it is acceptable . This was covered as long ago as the 2012 RfC/U. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ah. Found it!

"... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." - Wtshymanski

• again, DieSwartzPunkt and Andy Dingley you have presented a bunch of evidence, which is great. But just coming here and making a complaint about a pattern of behavior generally leads no where here; the discussion will just go on and on and will eventually peter out as everyone gets exhausted. If you want something done you should make a concrete proposal for action Jytdog (talk) 14:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It's DieSwartzPunkt who posted this, not me. I have no expectations of ANI ever acting usefully, so wouldn't have wasted the ink. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

well there is self-fulfilling prophecy if i ever saw one. OK I will do it, just so I don't have to watch this follow the sad pattern. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As for what action is required? Wtshymanski's battleground attitude to other editors (both registered and anonymous) has been going on for several years. Guy Macon's very comprehensive listing above is testament to that. What is required is some action to force Wtshymanski to co-operate with other editors in the manner that Misplaced Pages intend. This means either a series of escallating blocks until he falls into line (though this has not worked so far). Alternatively, I would suggest the proposal that was made at the 2012 RfC/U, where a set of rigourously enforced sanctions be applied against Wtshymanski. There was a good list discussed here which would be a good starting point. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 1: 3 month block on Wtshymanski

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

• Support - as proposer. W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits. Demonstrated by block log and diffs above. Jytdog (talk) 15:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support - as complainant. Previous block for this behaviour was one week and achieved nothing. A longer block is needed to try and get the message across. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 15:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Heres a better idea: block or interaction ban Dingley from bringing Wtshymanski to ANI again. Hes the one who has the problem. There are just three editors here who keep complaining about Wtshymanski: DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley. Theyre the ones who are causing this. Wtshymanski reverts bad edits - whats even wrong with that? To find things to complain about they dragged up a RFCU case from three years ago. No one else has trouble with Wtshymanski so leave the guy alone. 82.132.234.182 (talk) 15:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Re: "DieSwarzPunkt, GuyMacon and Dingley": ...and Binksternet, and Bratland, and Deucharman, and Dicklyon, and EdJohnston, and Floydian, and Hasteur, and Jytdog, and N5iln, and NellieBly, and North8000, and Northamerica1000, and P-Tronics, and Rdengler, and RichardOSmith, and too many IP editors to count... --Guy Macon (talk) 16:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. As Wtshymanski himself said, "And yet, every time someone lists me at WqA, or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest." --Guy Macon (talk) 16:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Support Sadly. The evidence speaks for itself. KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 17:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose The complaint states that "W has a well documented, long term pattern of WP:DISRUPTIVE editing by indiscriminately reverting IP edits." But the "evidence" posted by DSP shows only five such incidents "in the last three weeks". That's five edits out of over 700 made by Wtshymanski in that time. That's quite a standard W. is being held to. Regarding the list of previous incidents so painstakingly compiled by GuyMacon, many of those were closed without action. Since the current proposal is unsupported by sufficient evidence, this turns into "let's punish him more for the past 'pattern of behavior', even though we've provided no evidence that it's continuing." That's not how AN/I works. Jeh (talk) 18:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Interesting that you are prepared to cite 700 more or less mechanical edits adding a "no" to the "living=" parameter on biographical talk pages (that do not actually seem to change anything), as justification that Wtshymanski can revert IP address editors, contributions. Unless, the is, that you yourself do not approve of IP address editors editing. Guy answered the conclusions in his missive. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I won't comment on past history, but those 5 diffs at the beginning of this section are problematic as evidence. For example, the Feb 25 edit does not refer to the IP edit just before it, but to an earlier IP edit. The Mar 2 edit was clearly subtle vandalism from an IP whose only edits have been vandalism. --I am One of Many (talk) 19:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

This point was addressed. The IP resolves to a whole college in India. These have been problematic for a long time. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose Per difs provided by Jeh which refute the accusation. Edison (talk) 19:04, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

And have been shown to be non- evidence. DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose I see the case as clearly proven. I see Jeh's posting of diffs of other peoples' edits as not proving anything about Wtshymanski's behaviour at all (How was that even supposed to work?).

However I don't want to see Wtshymanski long-term blocked (or Alan Liefting, where something similar and equally counter-productive happened). We have several clear policies, one of which is AGF, others are about crediting merges, discussion with others etc. and Wtshymanski has a long, long history of ignoring any of them he feels like. However what I want to see happen instead is for him to just start bloody well behaving himself, same as the rest of us have to. I don't want this to be at the cost of excluding him altogether (if at all possible). Maybe over-optimistic, but I hope something is possible.

As an imposed action today, I'd be much more keen on some narrowly worded restriction. "Not describing non-vandalism as vandalism" would be a start. Simply not reverting IPs at all, if that's the smallest that can stick. I can't support a three month block on an editor though, even Wtshymanski. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Per Andy above. Just because Wtshymanski does not assume good faith doesn't mean that we should not give him a chance to correct himself. A temporary ban from reverting any IP edits may even be better than this. Epic Genius (talk) 22:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Oddly, I proposed this as an alternative to the 3 month block, but got shouted down. (See edit history for more). DieSwartzPunkt (talk) 23:23, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposal 2: revert restriction

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) is indefinitely prohibited from reverting an edit without a content based edit summary. In addition, they are prohibited from referencing the original editors lack of registration status in the summary.

• Support addresses the specific concern without unduly interfering with editing of the encyclopedia. NE Ent 23:10, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Zhanzhao and DanS76

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

See the admission HERE. His editing is seriously whacked, and an indefinite block is in order.VictoriaGrayson 18:48, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

• Where's the "whacked" part? Drmies (talk) 19:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

See here for starters. Also see recent history on the Rape in India page.VictoriaGrayson 19:21, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Where's the "whacked" part? (I've seen all of that. You need to point at crazy edits.) Drmies (talk) 19:33, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Accepting an AFC from the other sock is crazy.VictoriaGrayson 19:42, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

So can I confirm that we are having the discussion here instead of at the SPI article whre this was? Its hard to split my attention up as you'll notice that my activity is slowing down in recent years.

As mentioned, DanS and I are brothers. same household, so I can free admit that a check of logs will identify us as being on the same router network. We are not the same person, in fact I think I'm not even as active as him any more. I was the one who introduced him to Misplaced Pages, hence our interests in wikipedia articles may have overlaps. In the topics mentioned here where an overlap occured, all have the common factor of being hot-topics in Singapore. Guess what, we both live in Singapore. However, while we might hold some similar views, (same political party support etc) our thoughts might vary in the specifics.

I.e. if you see ], though both of us were involved in the same discussion, I wanted to give the subject in question a chance by only asking for a temp block for her to cools off, while my brother DanS was basically asking for a full ban.

Similarly, if I were just a sock, creating an account to bend consensus or skew voting, you can see here ] that I was the only one who endorsed the motion, while Dan did not, even though he could have since he was involved in the discussion higher in the thread.

Its hard for me to find other examples, as I do not always pay attention to which articles he is active in, and vice versa, except ones which we are both talked about over dinner - which of course is what led to this problem in the first place. Zhanzhao (talk) 19:29, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Harry the Dirty Dog

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Firstly, I am sorry if this is not the correct page to report this information but I am not greatly experienced in publishing reports. This is a query into whether a certain thing is acceptable conduct. Maybe this breaches WP:CIVIL, I have no clue. Anyhow Harry the Dirty Dog and another somewhat disruptive editor (User:Shookenlover) have been engaged in a series of Wiki-ding-dongs across a handful of pages (no need for me to list them as that is not the issue). I spotted the edit-warring at Coffee 1 (because I actually keep my eye on Shookenlover and not Harry but I have been on business for a few days) and issued two identical cautions (not templates), Shookenlover first, and Harry second. Harry proceeded to remove the comments which he is welcome to do under WP:BLANKING but what concerned me was the summary in which my legitimate caution was dismissed as "nonsense" and where I was labelled a "vandal". So I felt the best thing to do was rebut the remark but then it happened again. It is not acceptable to call someone a vandal if he/she isn't and I have not been called this before. --!BSGT! (talk) 20:59, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Boy Seeks Girl Tonight (talk • contribs) 20:52, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

As noted, I have the right to blank my talk page. Any attempt to interfere with that right can be classed as vandalism. Hense my edit summary. Harry Let us have speaks 20:56, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Please give proof of this "interference" by showing where I reverted you on your talk and then show where restoring blanked information is considered vandalism. Thank you. !BSGT! (talk) 21:02, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

A 3RR notice had already been placed by User:GB fan. I removed that notice since I considered the matter dealt with, and made no further edits on that article. It was not necessary for Boy Seeks Girl Tonight to put another warning, especially since I had not made any further edits to the article since the original notice. (Had I continued to revert the notice would have been fair enough.) Any attempt to interfere with the right of a user to blank his talk page can be classed as vandalism. Hence my edit summary. Harry Let us have speaks 21:05, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record. this edit by me came before the official admin template here. So the claim of "already warned" when he made the first "vandal" accusation is false. Apart from that I see that nothing else I have done amounts to vandalism OR any kind of improper conduct. --!BSGT! (talk) 21:18, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, apologies, I thought that GB fan's warning had come first. I was going from memory and it was all happening so fast. So I withdraw the vandalism comment unreservedly. Harry Let us have speaks 21:28, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

All right, we can draw a line to this discussion. It was all a lapse of judgement, no action is required so this can be closed peacefully. Thanks --!BSGT! (talk) 21:30, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Something Awful

I am concerned about the recent addition of a section on Aatrek to the Something Awful article. I thought about putting this on the BLP noticeboard, but I'm not sure if it quite qualifies.

Background: He joined SomethingAwful.com back in the mid-00s. He was made a moderator of the TV forum some time after that. Well, a year or so ago, it came to light that he had been convicted in 2007 of child molestation from the 1990s. When that came out, he was demodded and banned. Now, someone is trying to add a passage to this effect on the article for Something Awful.

I rejected it on three grounds.

1. Inadequate sourcing: there is a source saying he was a forum mod, and there is a source saying he was a sex offender, but there is no source from a third party indicating any notability to this outside of the SA community. So as it is, it comes across as forum drama. The other incidents on the page - the murderers and Slenderman - have their relationship with SA explicitly sourced.
2. BLP Coatracking: there seems to be no reason to add this to the article other than to widen knowledge of Aatrek and/or to smear SA.
3. The person who introduced it is named User:NotAAtrek, which stinks of WP:NOTHERE. But since then it's been defended by at least one other editor.

I suspect sockpuppetry, I've hit my three revert limit, and I've already received off-wiki harassment for this, so I yield and offer it to the wider community. I might be wrong, but I'd like to have more eyes on this please. --Golbez (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Golbez, I am sorry you have received "harassment" over this. However, your bias is obvious. You have admitted that you are a member of the Something Awful website. In addition, there are many issues with the article and points that you have raised can be applied to other sections. As you admitted on the Talk page, there are other issues which could be removed. However, you only choose to act on sections that you feel "smear" the club that you paid money to join. You refuse to act in helping clean up the citations, and instead delete the work of others while admitting obvious bias and refusing to step back. I think that is very unprofessional and goes against the collaborative spirit of Misplaced Pages. Please hold yourself to higher standards, you're an administrator and should be above this. Editted this comment as I made it (and the edit to the Something Awful Page removing the uncited information with Sean Smith) with my logged in username. James "J.J." Evans, Jr. (talk) 00:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, was I supposed to keep reading after you put harassment in quotes? Interesting, you had so many words after that too. --Golbez (talk) 02:37, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Inadequately sourced, certainly. And of almost zero relevance to the subject of the article, as indicated by the complete lack of WP:RS actually discussing the conviction in relation to the forum. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:25, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked NotAAtrek for clearly being not here, and any unblock would be contingent on both a username change and an agreement not to edit anything related to Something Awful. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:58, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

There's also a BLP concern here, which is laid out by WP:NPF. We should not be including that information on an individual that is not notable from our perspective. That the supposed incident(s) had little to no impact on the website itself is of course the other problem. It should be kept out. §FreeRangeFrog 23:09, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, I didn't know it was there. That helps. --Golbez (talk) 23:12, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

Copyvio - removal of tags by Spearmind

• Patrick Awuah, Jr. (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Rocky Dawuni (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
• Spearmind (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

67.131.235.220 has placed speedy delete notices on Patrick Awuah, Jr. and Rocky Dawuni (which should have been copyvio notices) which have been getting edit-warred off. MyNameIsVlad followed by placing a copyvio notice on the Rocky article in this dif, which Spearmind (ouch) reverted.

Efforts by the IP and Vlad to resolve with Spear on Spear's Talk page were met with aggression (that made no sense) - see discussion here.

I have restored the tags and logged the copyvio reports, but I doubt they will stick.

In general, as you can see from his contribs Spear is a newish editor and is editing very aggressively and on bad grounds.

Please restore copyvio tags and protect articles and give Spearmind a block for COPYVIO and edit warring.

• (note - just this morning I had a bad experience with Spearmind at Conspiracy theory that led to that article getting protected)
• (note - Spearmind opened a thread on (what he thinks is incorrect) efforts to tag the articles in AN, here - whoever acts on this should close that)Jytdog (talk) 01:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Small correction: I originally converted the speedy deletion request on Rocky Dawuni to a copyvio notice (https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Rocky_Dawuni&diff=prev&oldid=650070007). 67.131.235.220 (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks Jytdog, and thanks EdJohnston for protecting the one. Both are now deleted as blatant copyright violations. If anyone wants to deny that, or has denied that and edit warred over it, perhaps they should have the rest of their contributions investigated for NOTTHEREness. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, Peace Hyde (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) probably would also fall into this group, Spearmind seems to have reverted the copyvio there too. MyNameIsVlad 02:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

As said Im astonished how fast articles become deleted if just a part is copied from somewhere else. It does not mean everything is copied most is real editors work. It should be fixed in an more appropriate manner giving time to have the lines in question removed not the whole article. All these people were notable.Spearmind (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I reviewed the Patrick Awuah, Jr. history, and it should be noted that it doesn't look at all like the OP makes it out. Spearmind was the THIRD person to remove the speedy deletion notice, one of whom was an admin who declined the speedy deletion request. This doesn't look like someone acting in bad faith; any editor (except an article creator of a recently created article) is allowed to remove a speedy deletion notice and attempt to fix an article instead in good faith. If there were some copyvio issues, we can excise those without deleting the article, and I'm more worried that this is being characterized as Spearmind acting unilaterally; as I note he wasn't the first to remove the speedy notice, he was the third, and an admin declined the speedy, before someone came by immediately undoing this admin action and re-tagging the article. THAT'S more disruptive than someone who is making a good-faith request for temperance. Lay off the speedy requests for a while. --Jayron32 02:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks for this voice I couldnt just believe what is going on here. Thanks for reviewing. Jytdog asked for the second time within 2 days or so to block me he is absolutely not constructive in such matters. Please restore the articles! Ummm yes I came in peace.Spearmind (talk) 02:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

  I'm not going to undo the actions of other admins here, but what we need is a rational discussion of what happened, how to best fix it, and how to move forward amicably. What we don't need is people shouting at each other and demanding blocks. I'll ping the admins involved in the deletions, decline, protections, and other issues with these articles to get some more input. @Ged UK: @Drmies: @EdJohnston:. Lets try to find a way to talk this out and arrive at a solution that is best for the Encyclopedia, and try to get out of the revenge & punishment mindset here. We all want what is best, we just need to look at the material objectively, and figure out how to make this work. It may be this stuff needs to stay deleted, it may need to be restored, it may need to be started over from scratch. I don't know. But I do know that the way this is headed isn't good for anyone, and we need a new way to look at this problem. Let's look at it as a thorny content issue we need to work together with each other to make Misplaced Pages better, rather than a conflict where we need to punish people. --Jayron32 02:59, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, the IP user was told by the admin who declined his original speedy deletion request to resubmit it since the decline was due to not being able to access the original content. So his new request was simply following the directions of the admin by resubmitting and including a web archive of the page in case it goes down again. Granted, he did not wait "a day or two" but still, he was definitely acting in good faith by reapplying the tag with more information. I do agree that we should move forward from this, though. Big portions of several of those pages dinged on the copyvio report, so at the very least, that content should be removed. Since the copyright violations seem pretty extensive, we may also want to run samples of the rest of the text through Google to see if bits and bobs were not copied from other places. MyNameIsVlad 03:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Let's do that. Let's do anything except demand blocks. --Jayron32 03:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I probably erred in declining the speedy when I couldn't access the page, I should have left it for someone else as it may have been an issue on my end accessing it, for some reason. FWIW, the guy is clearly notable, and it seems he needs an article writing. There was enough in the original version to construct something that doesn't copyvio. GedUK  09:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Jayron, I don't see the thorns: it was copied to begin with. Drmies (talk) 03:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It should not be that easy shooting articles that way. Someone might play lottery with the admin in charge getting rid of articles he doesnt like. There must be strong barriers. When copyright content is challenged there is a procedure of fixing it needed. Im sure there were many good articles lost unjustified.Spearmind (talk) 03:15, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

There is a procedure in place, though. Both of the notices have instructions on what to do if you disagree/have further information, in the case of the speedy deletion, it's to discuss it on the article's talk page (with a big button that takes you there and has some prefilled text), and in the case of a copyvio, it's in the actual request's page (which is linked from the notice as well). The notices involved only serve as that, a notice of a requested action. It's ultimately up to the admin to look at the content and people's responses, and then make a decision. MyNameIsVlad 03:25, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Jayron32, I acknowledge that I didn't take as much time as I should have to provide all the diffs. I did check that there was copyvio (there was), and I trusted that any admin acting here would do the same. Drmies said she did. So.. done. And Spear was way out of line in removing the tags, in my view. No blocking action there again... so be it! Spear will learn to not edit so aggressively eventually, one way or another. Jytdog (talk) 03:51, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Spearmind should not have been removing {{copyviocore}} notices. There is a procedure for addressing these, which he did not follow. A copyvio notice is not a speedy deletion tag. The violation was already entered in the right place, Misplaced Pages:Copyright problems/2015 March 5#Rocky Dawuni. The actual violation looked fixable to me. But if Spearmind wants to make a habit of removing the copyvio tags without making any attempt at a fix, it's not likely to end well. EdJohnston (talk) 04:38, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I definitely made the mistake of using the speedy deletion banner when not 100% of the current article was copied. My analysis was that the articles started with copyrighted content and therefore it would just be better to restart with a clean slate. I won't make this assumption in the future. Spearmind saw me concentrate on Ghana articles (as said that's because I was reviewing article creations by Nkansahrexford who concentrates on Ghana) and assumed that I was on a mission to delete articles about Ghana. What I deplore is Spearmind's attitude on his talk page. I tried to establish a dialog and asked him to use the talk pages instead of just removing banners but he would not listen and became aggressively defensive.

Tonight I finished reviewing article creations by Nkansahrexford and applied one additional copyviocore banner to Thomas Mensah. A few other articles have copyvio issues but at a much smaller scale and I decided to let it go. There were also a few copyvio issues from the same user on Commons (see his talk page there).

Thanks to everybody who helped with this situation. 24.130.172.5 (talk) 06:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Wait a minute. "in the case of the speedy deletion, it's to discuss it on the article's talk page " What I saw my removing of speedy deletion boxes was immediately followed by insertion of copyvio templates. Its that the way it should work? Giving no chance of discussing the matter. Seems to copyvio template is to get rid of Rocky Dawuni, Peace Hyde and Patrick Awuah and alikes which were notable people with lots of links in the outside world. Is it so hard to understand that copyright issues need a solution far away from deleting the whole article, which was not a complete copy at all but work of many editors. Yes and I see absolutely no need to discuss removing speedy delete boxes on personal talk pages. Thats just not the right place. It must be on articles talk page but all are gone now. I deleted one copyviocore because it was an immediate reaction to my removing of speedy delete boxes. And I noticed later it should only be removed by admins. Just exchanging the template to delete an whole article not just the violation. This procedure is absolutely wrong.Spearmind (talk) 07:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You have said here that you believe that the {{Copyviocore}} procedure is wrong, and in deleting speedy tags you have said (on a number of occasions) that you disapprove of the speedy deletion process. If you disapprove of procedures, please go to the relevant talk pages and suggest improvements rather than blindly ignoring those processes which have been developed by consensus. --David Biddulph (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The pages of 3 Ghanaian are gone. Its shocking in which speed notable character articles are removed here which only to some part identified as copy. It was a question of less than 1 hour to remove the 3 articles completely giving no chance for discussion. The current extensive use of copyvio templates is unfair to all the editors worked on it. I think the board here is a good way to address that.Spearmind (talk) 12:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

See below. The copyvios are gone. If these persons merit articles at Misplaced Pages because they are notable, then just make new articles. No one will stop you. Just be sure that you don't make new copyvios when making the article. But if you want to start a new article properly, and write it in your own words without copying other text or "close paraphrasing" or anything else which is suspect, but start good articles on people who merit them, do that. No one here has yet told you that you cannot, and no one ever will. --Jayron32 18:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I cannot understand what the initial complaint by user: Jytdog is. Why was it filed here if the complaint is about edit warring? — it should be filed at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Edit warring according to the instructions on top of the page. Why do we care that jytdog believes that user: Spearmind is aggressive? Those of us who are not wp:admins have no access to the material that has been deleted almost instantly after the notice appeared here, so there is not much point in discussing this, or is there? I would hate to think this is how decisions about blocking editors are carried out. Just my $.02. Ottawahitech (talk) 18:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ottawahitech The #1 issue, which was correctly identified by the admin Drmies, was COPYVIO on 2 articles linked at the top of this thread. Drmies deleted the articles, which is why the links above are now red. The #2 issue was the behavior of Spearmind (who was edit warring to keep the COPYVIO tags off (doubly bad)), which was given a pass. So.. all done. Jytdog (talk) 19:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You must understand only him would like to see me blocked for whatever reason. I removed Daniel Pipes working for the CIA and publishing in orbis magazin on behalf of a thinktank pronounces to serve national interests. as as his source for strange claims at the Conspiracy Theory article. Maybe he was kind of angry about that. (no offense) His behavior asking to block me actually became an issue. I dont understand the way he chooses noticeboards but you must ask that for him.Spearmind (talk) 20:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

that's not accurate, and boring.Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

For you its boring, you started the subject here. Daniel Pipes as source for dubious claims on Conspiracy Theory article. Its not acceptable using terms like conspiracy theorist against real people, its a label no chance to argue. Then he kind of followed my activities. I was removing one copyvio tag when it came as immediate response to my removal of speedy deletion boxes. Later I did read that only admins SHOULD remove copyvio tags. I wanted to defend the articles at this point and let them go through discussion, but then immediately they were gone after less than an hour and while being busy here.Spearmind (talk) 20:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

related issues at Thomas Mensah now

Currently there is edit warring going on over copyvio tags at the subject article, which the IP editor mentioned above. Spear is trying to keep the tag on (good on you this time, Spear) and the creator is blanking the page. Jytdog (talk) 14:55, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well another notable person which we lose because some amount of text was copied? Someone seems to copy this stuff from ghanaweb again and again.Spearmind (talk) 18:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

There is no problem with restarting the deleted article from scratch, without any copyright violations. We lose nothing if you start the article properly. Indeed, where a person is notable, and where the article needs to be deleted because the first, and all subsequent, edits in the edit history contain copyvios, the proper procedure is to delete it and start from scratch. Just to put it bluntly, Spearmind, no one is telling you that you cannot create these articles again. When deleted for being copyvios, it's because we have to expunge the copyvio from the history. If you're so concerned with having the article at Misplaced Pages, if the person merits an article, go ahead and create it yourself! No one is trying to stop you! --Jayron32 18:29, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well I can "play" this game too. So "the wikipedia" wants in every case a restart no re-editing. Can I assume that? I dont think the speedy deletion templates should exist here. Anyone can take them out.Spearmind (talk) 18:54, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Hoplophobia article: Recurrent IP vandalism of valid references

User 72.56.9.232/208.54.38.247 repeatedly vandalizes a legitimate reference to a valid archive of "Jeff Cooper's Diaries." Claims the reference is "link spam," which it certainly is not. This may be a legitimate understanding or it may be a ruse for POV pushing — Preceding unsigned comment added by (talk) 03:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Diffs? Erpert 04:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

The two IPs that the original poster (99.242.102.111) is referring to are 172.56.9.232 and 208.54.38.247. This is an example of one of 172.56.9.232's edits, which does considerably more than remove a reference. It introduces/restores a considerably POV commentary. However, 99.242.102.111, you are engaged in an editwar to restore the references. The place to discuss the appropriateness of this reference (and from Talk:Hoplophobia#Gunsite Gossip source, it may not be appropriate) is at the article's talk page. Incidentally, the article is now being discussed for deletion at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Hoplophobia (2nd nomination). Voceditenore (talk) 11:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Never heard that term until today. It's nice to know that NRA types are editing Misplaced Pages. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:24, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Because such people cannot be trusted to edit Misplaced Pages. Pax 20:01, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yep, we're all Nazis. Dick. --NE2 20:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

You don't understand: the purpose of that link was to remind the trolls that not everyone interested in owning weaponry is a southern redneck or a gung-ho jarhead (i.e., the stereotyped NRA member, by snide implication to only persons desiring to keep that article). Pax 20:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

And simultaneously to remind the trolls (I'm reclaiming this term) that some of them may be Nazis who want to kill Jews without them fighting back. --NE2 21:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

So, are gun owners evil, or not? Or is it those who don't like guns who are evil? I'm getting confused now. ScrapIronIV (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If you're a 'roided LA SWAT unit enforcing CA gun-control at Glock-point, you're OK. Otherwise, you're ebil. Pax 22:21, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

NOW I understand! Thank you! Guns in the hands of government agents is good. Guns in the hands of private citizens is bad. No "What if?" questions allowed, right? It is a good thing that all governments are good, kind respectful entities that always desire the best for their citizens. ScrapIronIV (talk) 22:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Account sharing and block evasion by confirmed troll

Icemerang (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

See here. User:Icemerang claims to be a shared account, one of those accounts (User:Ronaldlheureux) being a blocked refdesk troll. Ian.thomson (talk) 03:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

 Done Guy (Help!) 23:31, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Bad-faith accusation of forum-shopping

John Carter (talk · contribs) has been repeatedly accusing me of forum-shopping a DRN thread onto ANI. THE DRN thread in question had nothing to do with me and I didn't even know about it until he brought it up. (Though the user whose conduct I was complaining about was involved, though.) I initially assumed a good-faith mistake and explained (first angrily, then politely with an apology for my earlier snark) that he was mistaken. His recent activity indicates he was well-read in the DRN thread, and almost certainly knew I had nothing to do with it.

I asked for a retraction several times and he just repeated the accusation, and even after the ANI thread closed and I again asked for a retraction he posted this on my talk page.

Could someone tell him it is inappropriate to repeatedly make incorrect forum-shopping accusations against other editors after being corrected? If not, could I get an IBAN?

Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 03:57, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I'll admit that what John posted on your talk page wasn't exactly the warmest sentiment, but...don't you remember when I said that you can't make someone retract their comments just because you disagree with them? And it was clear in that very long thread (btw, it was ironic that you brought up WP:TLDR at one point but then you made longer and longer comments yourself) that John wasn't the only person who thought you—and the user you reported—were forum-shopping; in fact, I brought that up first, not John. I have no opinion on an IBAN, although I do agree with him that you need to drop the stick. Erpert 04:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:Erpert: You posted your own opinion that there was forum-shopping (based on Catflap08's behaviour more than mine) on the article talk page. You later speculated that my ANI thread on Catflap08 was also forum-shopping. This was your interpretation of the facts that before you. The facts that were before you. You never lied and claimed the specific topic Catflap08 snd I were conflicting over was the subject of an open DRN thread. John Carter did this, without making any reference to you. You and I had a "disagreement", and I never asked you to retract your posts because you were neither posting based on a gross misunderstanding nor lying. I initially assumed that once I clarified for John Carter that his understanding of events was wrong he would be so embarrassed by the mistake that he would retract all his comments and apologize. Then I realized that what he had done was not make a mistake but deliberately lie about my activities. What John Carter and I have is not a "disagreement": he is lying about me and I want him to stop. As for WP:STICK: If I was still actively requesting a TBAN or block for Catflap08, maybe that would apply, but I withdrew that request two days ago. Now I'm asking for someone to tell a different user to quit his persistent and unjustified attacks against me. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

John's completely inexcusable insinuation is a clear violation of NPA and can be seen as a continuation of efforts to insult and degrade individuals. I make no secret of the fact that I have been involved in the Soka Gakkai material for some time now. Also, if you bothered to actually look, you will note that the topics merit being covered, see how much material can be found on them, and then try to determine weight. Honestly, that is to my eyes probably the most reasonable way to proceed.

Please make some sort of visible attempt to act in accord with conduct guidelines in the future. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoltAsResearch (talk • contribs) 06:02, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@User:JoltAsResearch: was this meant for John Carter's talk page? Your use of the second person implies you are talking to me, but I don't think I've ever interacted with you. Apart from the fact that JC randomly brought up Soka Gakkai in an unrelated ANI thread, and the above post randomly brought up Soka Gakkai in an unrelated ANI thread, I don't see how any of the above is related in any way to my complaint of false accusations or anything Erpert said. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 09:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC) (edited 10:33, 6 March 2015 (UTC) )

Yes, what is all that about? Erpert 09:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• JoltAsResearch is now blocked by User:HJ Mitchell for being an "obvious bad hand account". Thanks Harry--but you only just beat me to it, and to the $10 check from the WMF. Drmies (talk) 15:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

First I think it worth noting that Jolt shows the same simplistic understanding and virtual obsession with NPA in the above comment that Tgeairn has rather regularly demonstrated, and that on that basis the comment provides additional support for the conclusion that this is, in fact, a sockpuppet of Tgeairn.

Regarding Hijiri's statements, it seems to me that even in his response to Erpert above there seems to be a rather obvious insistence that Hijiri can, basically, do no wrong. And, frankly, considering that Hijiri himself has demonstrated a remarkable tendency to using obvious, frankly obnoxious, and completely unsupportable personal attacks such as "jackass" and "jerk," I find his sudden aversion to anyone questioning his sometimes dubiously rational and wildly emotional responses amusing. John Carter (talk) 18:19, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

• I suppose it's possible that Tgeairn has a sock drawer, but only in the sense that it's possibly for anyone to have it. I doubt it very much. Hijiri, one cannot make an editor retract something; the best thing you can do is say "dude you're wrong", remove it from your talk page, and consider banning him from your talk page. I agree with Erpert that "what John posted on your talk page wasn't exactly the warmest sentiment", and I could phrase that a bit more strongly, but it's not really actionable. If, however, the action you're looking for is an admin saying "John don't do that anymore", I can give you that much: John, please don't do that anymore. I can't and won't block for such a comment, but it's really unhelpful. At the same time, though, Hijiri, ANI may not be the best place for such a request. Drmies (talk) 18:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@Drmies: I specifically asked for an IBAN. This user showed up randomly on an ANI thread and posted lies about me in order to derail a discussion of his friend Catflap08's indisputably bad behaviour. He accused me of doing the exact same thing Catflap08 had done, and he was completely silent on it when his friend did it. If Catflap08 comes back and continues the same disruptive behaviour, I need to be sure he can't count on his friend John Carter to always bail him out no matter what happens. Entirely aside from that, it bothers me when people post lies about me. I'm pretty sure ANI is the place to ask for an IBAN with a user who has been harassing me like this. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry; I missed the last words of your opening statement. I am not in favor of iBans, and I wagged my finger, so I'm out. Drmies (talk) 00:52, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

• I rather think the odds of his having a sockpuppet are rather better than you do, obviously. The sometimes superficial nature of many of the comments and, possibly, thinking seen in both is to my eyes indicative of a linkage. And, frankly, I am unaware of any policies or guidelines which indicate that one cannot or should not question the actions of others if they believe those actions are in violation of policies or guidelines. There does seem to my eyes to be some basis in thinking that the hypersensitivity that I have regularly seen, and sometimes comment on, in Tgeairn, as well as the apparent view that policies and guidelines seem to only apply to individuals other than themselves, may not be limited to him. And, FWIW, considering I have been working to finish the content from one source relevant to the Bibliography of encyclopedias: general biographies as a primary action for the past several days, I acknowledge having given a cursory overview of my own talk page and just today saw Hijiri's comments there. I actually am not used to getting many messages there on the same day, and, in this case, I acknowledge I didn't check the page entirely. John Carter (talk) 19:48, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Remind me again, what part of forum shopping it here was a good idea? Guy (Help!) 23:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Are you talking to me or the sockpuppet? If me, it's because ANI is the best place (as far as I know) to ask for sanctions against a user who has been lying about me in order to deliberately derail legitimate discussion of his friend's inappropriate conduct. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 00:06, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

Personal attacks by User:John Carter

John, including the above you have directly and indirectly accused me of sock puppetry at least six times in the past 24 hours. Additionally, you have made all manner of statements about my ability to edit, read, follow policy, etc. You are a former admin here and you know damned well exactly how to report sockpuppets, POV issues, behavioural issues, etc. It is not by going to multiple talk pages and slinging mud.

I request an immediate block for John Carter for these personal attacks and unfounded accusations, as well as his behaviour in general with editors that he disagrees with. He has been warned repeatedly and in many venues, and has not slowed even a bit. At his request, I am not notifying John of this thread. I am pinging him though. Thank you. Tgeairn (talk) 23:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

First, I thank you for explicitly stating your obvious contempt for policies and guidelines by having the gall to state that you have pointedly refused to abide by the standards at the top of the page. Also, it would be worth noting that, so far as I can tell, being a former administrator does not necessarily mean that one knows "exactly" every variant rule, and that very few people knowing much about the rules would even think to say such a thing. An SPI case has in fact been filed regarding the above editor, and I personally think that the timing of this might well have been to prevent such in what may well be a desperate attempt to avoid the possible sockpuppetry being investigated. It is also worth noting that, unlike some others, I have been active on other sites today, including wikisource, and it was only in the last few minutes, actually, since I started the SPI page, that I got the ping regarding this message. It is also worth noting, as has been done before, including the recent AE regarding him, that the above editor has a seemingly deeply flawed and obsessive regard for what he mistakenly calls "personal attacks" as per NPA. John Carter (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User page used for canvassing

Hello,

Could an admin please take a look at this user page, being used to canvass editors inappropriately to a Commons deletion request, to judge whether it is appropriate and what action is appropriate if not. Note that the editor in question is a recent (and acknowledged) return of User:Ecemaml (see meta:User:Discasto), i.e. is not as new as his contribution list would make it appear. Thanks, Kahastok talk 07:36, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Deletion request closed as speedy keep. —Soap— 13:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

How can I have canvassed anyone? The very same WP:CANVASS policy describes it very well when talking about notifications. Have I notified anyone? --Discasto (talk) 17:06, 6 March 2015 (UTC) PS: as former commons administrator I do know what's the name for the spurious deletion attempt in commons (fortunately, Commons is not censored)

I believe that to be Wikilawyering. It was clearly campaigning to get people to support you in the deletion request. This isn't about the question of the deletion so I shan't comment on it.

But the user page remains, now accusing anyone who disagreed with Discasto in the DR of "politically motivated censorship", which would seem to be a clear violation of WP:AGF and WP:POLEMIC. Do we feel that this is appropriate on Misplaced Pages? Kahastok talk 18:09, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

BLP violation, edit warring and sockpuppet

• IllyrianDodona (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) keeps insisting on false, unreferenced information at BLPs Mirnes Pepić (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (diff 2), and earlier on Marko Baša (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (diff). I have asked him for sources, given none, and warned him after his editwarring. He in turn gave me a customized warning (here); Interestingly, Bato Lumbardhaj (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), who signs as "Bato the Illyrian" also gave me a customized warning (here) from nowhere. I believe these accounts are used by one person. Zoupan 08:22, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
• I have reverted them for the BLP violation and will warn. I can't judge the possibly socking right now; perhaps starting an SPI is the way to go. Drmies (talk) 17:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Urgent admin oversight needed over an IP account

See the revision history at Ottoman empire. The IP's have been personally attacking users with very insulting remarks. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected by Fut.Perf.. Stickee (talk) 09:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sticker Although I genuinely appreciate Future Perfect at Sunrise's good faith effort, I think semi-protection solves only part of the problem. The IP accounts called other users cockroaches and many other unspeakable personal insults. Do these IP account not merit a block? Or else, were at risk of getting insulted elsewhere. Étienne Dolet (talk) 09:39, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Well, they certainly "merit" blocks, but since they are IP-hopping anyway, a block would have no concrete effect at all (unless it was a very large rangeblock). Fut.Perf. ☼ 09:47, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'll just gently throw into the mix that some of the other comments have not been particularly civil either, so it looks like the IP has just responded in kind. Dr.K. should not be calling other editors bigots, IP or not. Ritchie333 11:00, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

When they express clearly bigoted views, that's hardly unwarranted. The IP was not "just responding" to unprovoked uncivil comments. Paul B (talk) 15:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not saying the IP wasn't at fault, and I think semi-protecting the article was the right call ... but when faced with these sort of abusive comments, the best thing to do is keep a cool head and not retaliate. Ritchie333 15:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Different meaning of "just", Paul. Drmies (talk) 17:43, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Really? How? Just about the only justifiable meaning of 'just' I can derive from Ritchie333's statement is 'merely', which is how I used it. Paul B (talk) 19:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

"Stupid personal attack" is possibly unnecessary but mild in comparison to the IP's language (I'm about to remove one edit summary); Dr.K., thanks. Drmies (talk) 17:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Violation of Troubles Restrictions 1RR

The following IP Special:Contributions/86.188.201.211 has violated the 1RR that is imposed on articles and issues that are to do with or related to the Troubles Restrictions. In this instance their insistence on using Derry for the county when per WP:IMOS it is Londonderry, and their insistence of Ireland as the country over the actual country, which is Northern Ireland. The article of violation if Slaughtneill GAC, edits having taken place today.

I had informed the IP of this restriction only a few hours before they decided to do go ahead and revert again. Only two days ago after making a change at Kilrea GAC which was reverted by User:John of Reading who also left the IP a message notifying of the issue, the IP reverted within the space of half an hour. Whether this constitutes two violations of the 1RR (one which occurred after being notified of the Troubles Restrictions) or just one I leave up to admins.

All 21 or whatever of their edits across various GAA articles this month have all revolved around changing this information.

I also gave the IP a NPOV caution, to which User:Murry1975 has since given them a formal warning for disruptive editing.

The IP had been notified about WP:DERRY, WP:IMOS and WP:IRE-IRL by three different editors at his talk page prior to their 1RR violation so they know what manual of style must be used on this issue.

Mabuska 16:03, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on NI politics (I prefer to just drive up the Antrim Coast Road and look out of the window) but I believe in the case of Slaughtneill GAC, the Gaelic Athletic Association uses different county names to the Northern Irish government, so "County Derry" can be considered correct. Therefore, I would strongly advise against anyone reverting with a summary of "rvv" and highly recommend using the talk page. As you've also breached 1RR (, ), so take care! Ritchie333 16:11, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If I may. The other team articles use 'County Londonderry' in their content :) GoodDay (talk) 16:26, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

It's highly likely (I won't go the SPI route) that the IP is a ban/block evading editor, as we've seen an IP:86.xxx around these Ireland/Northern Ireland related articles before. Anyways, there's an agreement that Derry is used for the city & County Londonderry is used for the county. BTW, both are within Northern Ireland. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ritchie333 there is an agreed WP:IMOS in regards to this situation. Also we are stating "County Londonderry, Northern Ireland" for the actual geopoliical location of the club and that is not dictated by the GAA. The second sentence of all these club articles does make reference to the clubs belonging "Derry GAA" which satisfies what the GAA call it. If we followed your suggestion then the whole Misplaced Pages Ireland project would be a mess with editors using "so and so use it so use that" as a reason for mass edits and resulting edit-wars. It is why we have the WP:IMOS and things like the Troubles Restrictions.

Also I have reverted an IP that is being disruptive and is now vandalising as they have been told of the IMOS so my reverts of them in my view do not constitute breaching 1RR. Mabuska 16:27, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Understand that, but sports (certainly Rugby union which is incredibly popular all over Ireland) originate from a time when the entire Island of Ireland was part of the United Kingdom, and hence the nomenclature used is something of a grandfather clause (note how teams play for the province of Ulster, which includes both Northern Ireland and the Republic). If consensus is to use "County Londonderry" full stop, everywhere, no if no buts, that's okay (and indeed it's what I use), but it does mean I'm twitchy about it being "obvious vandalism". Ritchie333 16:28, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism or not it violates the 1RR Troubles Restrictions. And yes the consensus is to use County Londonderry full stop regardless, just like consensus is to use Derry for the city full stop regardless. That is what WP:DERRY makes very clear. Mabuska 16:30, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. I just get the heebie-geebies about the word "vandalism".... Ritchie333 16:32, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough but after being warned and notified of the manual of styles and 1RR Troubles Restriction it can easily be construed as vandalism. Mabuska 16:34, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

If the IP is who I think it is, the IP will need to be blocked as it likely won't stop reinserting what it prefers. GoodDay (talk) 16:42, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the IP editor three days for the 1RR violation and alerted them about the discretionary sanctions under the WP:TROUBLES case. EdJohnston (talk) 17:05, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User talk:Ritchie333, consensus is to use Londonderry for the county and Derry for the city, if an editor is to was ] when refering to the county GAA team that would be fine too. This "new" editor seems to be making a point. An unfortunate amount of time is spent on these reverts and there is a certain perception that making many such edits may be vandalism, my own view is it is POV and against consensus for the first few times, after that just purely disruptive. Thanks EdJohnston for the intervention, but it hasn't had the lasting effect Special:Contributions/80.4.175.165. Murry1975 (talk) 19:45, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that's more or less the conclusion I've come to. I think the main difference is I would revert, block, ignore - wouldn't bother reverting without a block first; an obvious POV pusher (which this was) would just revert again and again and again. And calling it "vandalism" runs the risk of a long and tedious or abuse explanation of why it isn't. Anyway, IP blocked, article stabilised, I guess we're all done here. Ritchie333 21:16, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately User talk:Ritchie333 the article hadn't stabilised with the block and the issue done with. As User:Murry1975 pointed out, a new IP (geolocated to the same county) suddenly appeared since the block to do the exact same edit on that specific article. This is obviously now a case of sockpuppetry and thus block evasion. Though User:EdJohnston has since semi-protected the article thankfully to prevent IP edits which should now stabilise the article. Whether the IP will now play ball and adapt to Misplaced Pages policies is up to them. Mabuska 23:35, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

User:Haffy881 and copyright issues

Haffy881 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log)

(Retitled to "User:Haffy881 and copyright issues" from non-neutral "Haffy881 and massive amounts of copyright infringements" per wp:TALKNEW. --doncram 21:07, 6 March 2015 (UTC))

I stumbled on this editor adding massive amounts of text to articles. A quick google search found they they are cutting and pasting text from other websites into wikipedia. I reverted them with links to the original sources (Examples: one, two, and three) but this goes way back before today. This is copied from last month. Every time I revert an edit and give them a warning, they wait a few hours and do it again. Helpsome (talk) 18:40, 6 March 2015 (UTC)