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Revision as of 16:12, 23 March 2015

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See also related discussions and archives:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid weasel words
• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid peacock terms
• Misplaced Pages talk:Avoid neologisms
• Misplaced Pages talk:Words to avoid

WP:TERRORIST

Some users seem to be circumventing WP:TERRORIST by using the term in category and article names rather than in the bodies of articles, is this allowed? Gob Lofa (talk) 15:22, 19 February 2015 (UTC)

@Gob Lofa:, probably not. Examples? Faceless Enemy (talk) 03:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

First this is a guideline, not a policy, and secondly it refers to people and groups, not events. I saw your comments at Talk:List of terrorist incidents in London#Move. You wanted the article moved to "List of incidents in London labelled as terrorism." Even if the guideline applied the effect of your change would be to imply that there were some sources that did not consider the attacks to be terrorism, which violates policy. TFD (talk) 06:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

It does heavily imply that the people and groups who we say do the acts we categorize as terrorist acts are terrorists. But yeah, it's not technically against the rules. So it comes down to a question of whether there's encyclopedic value to grouping things labelled as terrorism (which is what the category is, regardless of its title).

As this is merely the Manual of Style, I'll not answer that question here. InedibleHulk (talk) 07:01, February 24, 2015 (UTC)

My original preference with the London article was to replace the word 'terrorist' with 'VNSA', which is descriptive without being value-laden. Gob Lofa (talk) 16:32, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

I do not think it does that. Compare with crime. We could say crimes committed in the U.S. last year included x number of DUIs. It only violates the guideline when we start labelling anyone guilty of DUI a criminal. In "Modeling Violent Non-State Actors", the authors say that "terrorist organizations" are a form of VNSA. It seems like an improvement over current terminology that labels every non-state group the U.S. opposes as terrorists. But it has its problems too, beyond being fairly obscure. Why are insurgents who oppose U.S.-backed governments called VNSAs, while U.S., backed insurgents are not? What about U.S. paid mercenaries? TFD (talk) 03:26, 25 February 2015 (UTC)

First I've ever heard that term. I guess whether it's value-laden depends on whether you're more afraid of terror or violent acts. But yeah, its American-only context isn't great for something about London. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:29, February 25, 2015 (UTC)

Gob Lofa, in Faceless Enemy's post of 03:34, 24 February 2015 (UTC) s/he asked, "Examples?" I know that I have developed Category:Organizations designated as terrorist and Category:Designated terrorist organizations associated with Islam although perhaps these should more accurately be moved to Category:Groups governmentally designated as terrorist and Category:Groups associated with Islam governmentally designated as terrorist organizations as per common name and re reference to the nations making the designation. If you have a problem with editor action please cite the cases and perhaps ping the editors involved. Please also specify how you think editors have been circumventing WP:TERRORIST. The title of the page is "words to watch". GregKaye 08:24, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

"Health warnings"? Political labels

One of the usual disputes regarding political articles often has to do with identifying organizations or persons with political labels. Always when I've seen done as POV-pushing, it has been so that editors with a conservative slant want to mark the opponents as liberals and the editors with the liberal-slant want to mark the opponents as conservatives. A 2013 Daily Telegraph article calls these kind of labels "health warnings" . The purpose is similar as with weasel words: "oh, the critics are just some liberals". It shouldn't be due to refer to a foundation as conservative/liberal on every occasion, but on the other hand sometimes labels are required for presenting a dispute in a thorough way, and the result is fine if the editor is careful. Usually when it's done in a disruptive way, there's a number of unrelated low-quality sources bundled together to make the claim for the label, i.e. "is a conservative author ".

Does anyone know has this ever been discussed at MOS, and should something about it be drafted? --Pudeo' 05:25, 9 March 2015 (UTC)

WP:CLAIM in supernatural subjects

How do the principals of avoiding words like claim apply in topics about supernatural events? Do we assume that the credibility of experts of supernatural things is in question due to the nature of the paranormal?--Prisencolinensinainciusol (talk) 23:28, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

• Prisencolinensinainciusol please note that the guideline is called, WP:Manual of Style/Words to watch and that it begins, "There are ], ..." The first WP:PILLAR is the intent to build an encyclopaedia and the WP:CLAIM issue is presented as a guideline. GregKaye 08:35, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• The big problem here I guess would most likely relate to miracles broadly construed. So far as I know, there is nothing in any policies or guidelines which prohibits use saying, for example, that a qualified medic has described an apparently miraculous cure as a miracle. However, at the same time, we probably should not include any such statements indicating the belief in something being of supernatural origin in wikipedia's voice, but rather in phrasing like "according to (x), it was a miracle" or supernatural event. There would of course be basis for an exception for broadly religious or supernatural stories in which the events are either explicitly described as supernatural in some way or obviously intended to be seen as being of a supernatural nature. John Carter (talk) 17:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposed changes to Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Contentious labels

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RfC added on 16 March

• Regarding the discussion above I suggest that an additional shortcut be added to this section as: WP:W2WTERRORIST which would then change the listing of shortcuts for the section to read: WP:LABEL WP:TERRORIST WP:W2WTERRORIST.
• Changing the text from saying "Value-laden labels ... are best avoided" to saying "Value-laden labels ... may be best avoided"
• Changing the title from "Contentious labels" to "Descriptions that can be used as contentious labels"

My view is that this section (in a content on a page entitled "words to watch" and which begins with the statement "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages") is unnecessarily and unhelpfully proscriptive. It is also contradictory saying that there are no forbidden words and then labelling a certain set of adjectives as "labels" and stating that they are best avoided. For instance I would have no problem in describing, say, Nazi philosophy and motivations as being "racist". In a slightly more contentious topic there is currently a discussion at Talk:ISIL on the use of the use of the widely used description "extremist" in the lead. In other cases I think that various topics might be described as fundamentalist without any form of slur being offered. In fact in some cases, and depending on the nature of the true fundamentals of the topic, this particular wording might well present them in an unrepresentationally favourable light. In the specific title The Beatles (terrorist cell) I think that its least problematic part is the terrorist reference. The four individuals concerned are not The Beatles and there is no evidence that I know of that the four of them act as an individual cell and on this basis I have requested an article move to the title ISIL militants nicknamed the Beatles with discussion here. Otherwise I think that the terrorist description is arguably very apt as, to my interpretation, it has been the videoed killing of captives including aid workers that largely substantiated ISIL's international designations as a terrorist organization.

I think that it is very fair that the words mentioned be categorised as "words to watch" but I think that it would be wrong to be prescriptive in our approach. My worry though is that, in a minority of cases, we may lose our ability to give pithy descriptions of topics. Our main priority is to build an informative encyclopaedia and, IMO, not necessarily to pander to any politically correct agenda. GregKaye 09:33, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Agree. Shortcut does no harm. --Mr. Guye (talk) 17:00, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

RfC: ancient religions and the myth of NPOV

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Propose adding myth and mythology to the content on "words to watch" in WP:LABEL in regard to all uses of the word. I don't intend by this that the words be excluded from use but just, if alternative presentations can be given, then these should be considered. This is in line with the general spirit of the article which begins with the text: "There are no forbidden words or expressions on Misplaced Pages, but certain expressions should be used with care, because they may introduce bias."

At present the text of WP:LABEL begins, "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and are best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution."

In the thread immediately above I have suggested that this can read, "Value-laden labels ... may express contentious opinion and best avoided unless widely used by reliable sources to describe the subject, in which case use in-text attribution."

This proposal follows a long discussion at: Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion#Disambiguations of divinities in which continued and unanimous opposition was given to the use of the disambiguation "... (mythology)".

The problem here is perceived WP:SYSTEMICBIAS in which present day faiths seem to be automatically classified as "religions", "faiths" etc. while previously practised faiths get regularly classified as "myths" and "mythologies". Words like "folklore" regularly don't even get a look in. My contention is that practitioners of present day religions have established bias by being instrumental in developing the description of prior forms of belief as myth.

According to the online Oxford dictionary definition of: myth, there seems to be no major problem with the first definition.

1. A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining a natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events:

If this was viewed in isolation there might be no problem as the word might be considered to neutrally present a narrative on a religious theme. I am not sure when or how the second definition definition was developed/was first used but I consider this to present the problem.

2. A widely held but false belief or idea:

The result, I think, is that present day religions are falsely differentiated from previous faiths.

I think that the problem here goes far beyond a mere #Expression of doubt but that the usage goes as far as to WP:ASSERT falsity when the same stance is not adopted with present day faiths. See the articles Creation myth (which I am not necessarily arguing against) and Genesis creation narrative for examples of this.

A positive way forward I think would be actions such as to favour links such articles as Ancient Greek religion as opposed to Greek mythology. This, I think, would reduce current discrepancy.

I will notify the religion and mythology wikiprojects of this discussion. GregKaye 11:47, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I think this imposes a bias where none existed before. The religion wikiproject has basically unilaterally decided that mythology belongs to them, and the only valid point of view from which to study mythology is a religious one. Those of us interested in the historical, anthropological, artistic and literary aspects of traditional storytelling are apparently wrong and can just pack up and go home. You may have unanymity in the religion project, but you have not given other points of view a chance to respond before moving articles.

My own particular interest, Irish myth, shows up the problems with your approach. I note you have moved a handful of Irish mythological characters from "(mythology)" to "(Irish folklore)", but this shows a degree of ignorance of the subject as these are primarily literary, not folkloric, characters. Pre-Christian mythological stories stopped being passed on orally quite early and were preserved by an elite class of antiquarian monks trying to reconstruct what they thought of as a historical narrative that would support their Christian religious foundations and the ruling dynasties they lived under (and were probably mostly part of). These stories have always had secular as well as religious purposes - as do the myths of other cultures. --Nicknack009 (talk) 12:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Nicknack009 you are right in pointing out that I have tackled the topic from a religious angle and, when I initiated the well supported thread: Disambiguations of divinities as an RfC, I only did this with notification to the religion and philosophy board. In hindsight I should have also notified the history and geography board as I have done here.

However, I have also posted on the Mythology wikiproject board to inform of threads/actions in an effort to try to keep things inclusive. All the moves that I made were within categories of gods and godesses and with the three folklore examples that you mention being found within Category:Irish gods. There remains, as I see it, a POV issue with content in a sphere involving religion and belief where words that can be interpreted with negative connotations such as myth and mythology get attached. As far as a "words to watch" approach is concerned then I would hope that nothing would be overly prescriptive but, if a disambiguation such as (Irish literature) would work, this might pose a neutral option. There are plenty of authors that have written about supposed deities along a spectrum from perceived non-fiction to the penning of wilfully fallacious tales and, in this context, words like literature may make no or little judgement. Myth and mythology, however, are not neutral words. They have a shade to suggest fallacy and, within the parameters of dealing with religious topics, I think that they should be words to watch.

GregKaye 20:13, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"Myth" has a technical, non-pejorative meaning that you're ignoring - not to mention that "religion" has negative connotations, to the extent that Christians of my acquaintance insist that Christianity is not a religion. Give me a good myth over a religion any day. But frankly, it's bad enough that we're increasingly told we can't speak frankly about active religious beliefs for fear of giving offence, without extending that oversensitivity to the traditions of people and cultures long dead. Language policing is annoying enough in the social and political spheres without bringing it into scholarship. --Nicknack009 (talk) 21:21, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Nicknack009 and oppose this proposal. This isn't a religious issue. There is no need to make it one. Egsan Bacon (talk) 20:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Nicknack009, you have ignored my open presentation of both definitions clearly presented above. Are you saying that people do not associate myth with falsity? My conjecture is that they most certainly do. There is a one sided bias of the terminology of myth is only applied to faiths that, for whatever reason, have fallen out of currency. GregKaye 22:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Egsan Bacon of course it is a religious issue. Modern faiths with, arguably, no greater justification than faiths of the past are treated as religions and this all happens in a context in which faiths of the past are described as myths. There is no balance. GregKaye 21:57, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I said earlier that "The religion wikiproject has basically unilaterally decided that mythology belongs to them". You're still doing it. While there is some overlap, "mythology" and "religion" are not synonyms, and you need to understand the distinction. Mythology is a body of traditional storytelling, which often has a religious purpose (among other purposes). Religion is a body of ritual practices and beliefs, which often involves myths. As an example, Christianity, a religion that is currently practised, has a body of mythology, including parts of the Bible, which are part of the religion and are read, recited and studied as part of religious practice, as well as stories like the Harrowing of Hell, Paradise Lost and Jesus Christ Superstar, which are not. Likewise, the worship of Dionysus was part of ancient Greek religion, but Euripedes' The Bacchae, a major source for the mythology of Dionysus, is a secular work of art that has been interpreted as a criticism of traditional religious practices, and very likely expressed veiled political concerns. Mythology is not simply dead religion, and invoking religious sensitivity on behalf of mythology in the name of "balance" doesn't make any sense. --Nicknack009 (talk) 22:53, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I regret to say that I agree with Nick here. As the person who created both Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Religion/Encyclopedic articles and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Mythology/Encyclopedic articles, both of which are based on some of the better encyclopedias directly relevant to their topic, I would very very much argue that the one project has attempted to take over the other, just that, for better or worse, most articles fall within the scope of both of them, and the religion project is more active. And also, of course, as Nick says, mythology is about the stories of a religion, not about the religion itself. Particularly in the older religions, where aspects other than the stories themselves aren't given as much attention, like forms of worship, theology, structure of worship, there is a lot of overlap, because the stories of any religion are of significant importance to that religion. And, yes, a lot of articles and topics do appear in both lists, particularly the names of entities who are included in the pantheons or broader belief systems of a religion. Would I mind in any way the WikiProject Mythology becoming more active again? Not in the least. Does its comparative inactivity make it necessary that the more active WikiProject Religion basically be told "hands off"? No, because, from what I remember, most of the editors involved in one project were also active in the other. John Carter (talk) 23:34, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone's telling the religion project "hands off". It's good and right and necessary that there's input into mythological topics from the religion angle. It's just important to remember that other angles exist and we need their input as well - and we shouldn't go framing language in such a way as to exclude them. --Nicknack009 (talk) 13:07, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Personally, I think we should only use "myth" and "mythology" when necessary and simply be more specific otherwise. Both terms are widely used in an academic, non-pejorative manner but the definition of myth can vary greatly from scholar to scholar, and it does have pejorative semantic element, especially in colloquial English. It's also often reserved for anything that isn't a "living religion". Of course, we're using the term in an academic sense, not a colloquial manner, but I think that the solution to this issue is to simply to be specific wherever possible. I don't think is ever an appropriate disambiguation for these reasons. :bloodofox: (talk) 21:55, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

I think Nicknack009 makes some excellent points, and :bloodofox:'s suggestion here is basically sensible. The words "mythology" and "myth" should be used carefully and advisedly. Bad: "The Egyptians thought that Osiris was king of the underworld, but that is only a myth." Good: "In Táin Bó Cúailgne, a key work of Irish mythology, the hero Cú Chulainn has a number of encounters with deities such as the Morrígan." Ancient religions need to be understood on their own terms, not in terms laid down by modern-day religious sentiment, no matter how ecumenical. Q·L·1968 ☿ 23:01, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose proposal. Just don't use it in the pejorative layman's sense, but only in the scholarly academic sense. This is too central a concept in the study of religion for it to make sense to consider a problematic word - it would be impossible to write about religion and to follow the usage of the sources.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 23:05, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: In the current text of WP:LABEL, I already find "Avoid myth in its informal sense, and establish the scholarly context for any formal use of the term." That sounds appropriate to me. (Has it just been added?) It might be worth adding "mythology" to that sentence; otherwise, I'm not sure what the proposal is meant to do. GregKaye's made clear that counting it as a "word to watch" doesn't mean banning it from our lexicon, just cluing people in that there's a wrong way to use the word. Q·L·1968 ☿ 23:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

The "myth" aspect was already a part of the WP:LABEL guideline. Flyer22 (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

I think it's fair to say we should be careful with the word "myth", as it does have the meaning "something that a lot of people think is true, but isn't". I really don't think there's any need to worry about "mythology", which only has one meaning. --Nicknack009 (talk) 10:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. I agree with Nicknack009. Paul August ☎ 11:49, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment It seems to me that this is a debate over a word that potentially has consequences for many words. To a large extent it depends on what we assume to be the distinction between English and "Simple English", I for one can distinguished in "legend" between a legend on monument and an urban legend, but ought the editors of Misplaced Pages expect Wikiepdia readers to know of that distinction? At what age group and educational level is this encyclopaedia aimed? This is covered to a limited extent in MOS:JARGON and the essay Misplaced Pages:Make technical articles understandable (although I think it is hoisted by its own petard "typical level where the topic is studied (for example, high school, college, or graduate school)". What is a high school, college and graduate school? These are dialect expressions and words! If we assume that it is acceptable to use a term such as "high school" then should we assume that Nicknack009's reasonable use of myth is acceptable? -- PBS (talk) 13:03, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose per Nicknack009 and everybody else. Introduces a bias that did not exist before. --Mr. Guye (talk) 17:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Related concern This seems part of a larger program the broadly replace the term "mythology" with the term "religion", for example the following edits (inappropriately in my view) replace "Greek mythology" with "ancient Greek religion": . These are only a few of what seems to be many many more. I would respectfully ask that these edits be reverted untill we can come to consensus concerning proper usage. Paul August ☎ 15:00, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

That would be a very odd substitution since mythologies only form part of religion, any religion is much more than its mythologies.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 15:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Maunus that any religion is much more than its mythologies, and that's precisely why "mythology" should not be used where we mean "religion". The Gaia and Pontus edits for example seem perfectly reasonable, even if these articles do lean heavily on mythology. Q·L·1968 ☿ 16:20, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

I am not aware of either Gaia or Pontus having any central relation to Greek religion (i.e. cult, rituals) they seem to me to be solely characters within the mythological complex, in the same way that Queen Jezebel and King David are not central figures in Christian religion, but in Christian mythology.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:41, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

They don't have to have a central relation. We're talking about a polytheistic religion; it's inherently pluricentric. Pausanias says that the oracle of Delphi belonged to Gaia originally (Description of Greece 10.5.5); the same writer mentions sanctuaries, temples and/or altars of Gaia at Athens (1.18.7), Phila (1.31.4), Sparta (3.11.9), Olympia (5.14.10), Ægæ (7.25.13), and Tegea (8.48.8). Gaia is offered prayers and libations by several characters in Æschylus' Libation Bearers, generally on behalf of the dead. Aristophanes gives an invocation of Gaia, among other deities, in Thesmophoriazusæ. (This and further information available at theoi.com.) On the same website's page on Pontus, you can see two depictions of Pontus on mosaics. Mythology is one aspect of religion; iconography, cult practice, and divination are others. Neither Gaia nor Pontus is restricted to mythology, but are part of a wider milieu. Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:09, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

That is a reasonable argument that I would be happy to concede, blanket changes of mythology to religion I would not.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:26, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

There I completely agree. Such changes should be thoughtfully considered, not made willy-nilly. Q·L·1968 ☿ 19:56, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment in the first discussion started as related to this topic, Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Religion#Disambiguations of divinities, I have now presented large contents of references from the Encyclopaedia Britannica, in comparison to which, parallel Misplaced Pages content inconsistently and yet predominantly presents a far greater emphasis on mythology. One of earliest points that I raised in my original post was the gender discrepancy in which female divinities were far more likely to be disambiguated ".. (mythology)" than male divinities and this has been born out in later content on that page. A lot of the Britannica and gender research was conducted following my posting of this thread and perhaps issues can be pursued simply by means of quoting such guidelines as WP:SYSTEMICBIAS and WP:NPOV. However, the current emphasis on mythology in Misplaced Pages, at least in comparison to sources like Britannica, I think, needs to be addressed. I do not think that the word mythology is being used with fair representation and that, to guard against further abuses, a reference in W2W would help. I think that, given the above, "mythology" can certainly be considered (to some extent) a word to watch and, in various cases, words pertaining to "history", "culture" and "religion" may often be more relevantly applied. GregKaye 12:45, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

GregKaye, your proposal confuses me. Like QuartierLatin1968 (Q·L·) noted above (the "23:20, 16 March 2015 (UTC)" post), the "myth" aspect was already a part of the WP:LABEL guideline. So why did you propose that "myth" be added to it? Was your proposal more about adding "mythology" to the guideline? Since "myth" is already there, it's like the oppose votes above are forming WP:Consensus to remove "myth" from the guideline. I did tweak one aspect regarding the guideline, as noted lower. Flyer22 (talk) 20:09, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Quote box in WP:LABEL

The quote box being used without context in WP:LABEL was grossly misleading and unnecessary. We have excellent text that describes the problems with contentious labels. The quote (of no one in particular, mind you) is simply not needed and should be removed. If you want to explain a particular word in the text, feel free to offer some text for a possible explanation here.

jps (talk) 18:40, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

It's not misleading; those are contentious labels in many situations, even though some may also have non-judgmental uses. It's presented, just as in the sections above and below, as a series of examples and doesn't claim to be a quotation. NebY (talk) 19:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

The examples aren't very good. There isn't a justification for including those particular words and some of them are included without any comment. The text is much better. As it is presented right now, users might think that it's okay to simply remove all those words wherever they see them which is highly problematic. jps (talk) 19:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

I tweaked one part regarding that section, in case editors think that they automatically have to use WP:Intext-attribution; they do not. WP:Intext-attribution is clear that it can mislead. I have certainly seen it applied wrongly. Flyer22 (talk) 19:49, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

The examples that you most recently removed are all appropriate. Most of Sect, fundamentalist, heretic, extremist, denialist, myth, -gate, pseudo- and controversial are used without any derogatory intent in particular contexts, but in general use all are frequently intended as or read as inherently critical, derogatory or condemnatory. Four of them are discussed at length in the text below the box. It is possible that some are "not universally accepted" (as you put it in an edit summary); that rather suggests that they are indeed contentious. If editors "simply remove all those words wherever they see them" then the problem is surely one of competence - they have disregarded or simply not read the text that the box introduces. Have you encountered a recent instance of this, perhaps actually citing the MOS, that you have sought to correct by amending the MOS? NebY (talk) 20:07, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

Yes, people cited WP:LABEL as a reason to remove the description of a webpage that engages in climate change denial. To claim that this is a pejorative description of the blog is certainly the POV of those who believe in climate change denial, but when reliable sources identify the webpage as such, it seems that many users (who may have ulterior agendas) are quick to appeal to this MOS as a trump card. jps (talk) 16:12, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

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