Misplaced Pages

In my opinion there is a major issue here with NPOV. The article used for almost the entire introduction set out specifically to list the problems with naturopathy, which should rightly belong in a criticism section, although the criticism section seems to be a lot of the page. There is no mention in the introduction that naturopathy is also replete with scientific, effective, ethical, and safe practices. There seems to be a lot of cherry picking going on here. I can provide a large number of references of solid scientific evidence for naturopathic practice,and all you have to do is click one of the modality links to find one, but I see none of them being used here so far, why? Because you couldn't find them?, or because you didn't look? Another thing I take issue with in some of these articles is the moving of the goalposts. Once something previously classed as "alternative medicine" by mainstream medicine is found to have sufficient scientific proof, it is quickly classed as mainstream medicine, meaning that alternative medicine, by their definition cannot include science. Never mind the fact that thousands of years of reliable practice is its own science. Repeatable results and all that. And nevermind that most GP's know very little about even scientifically accepted herbal remedies. Anyway, I digress. The same article has a quote from webmd, it's own publisher. "A licensed naturopathic physician (ND) attends a 4-year, graduate-level naturopathic medical school and is educated in the same basic sciences as a medical doctor (MD)." and then follows it up by saying "The WebMD treatise also advises, "Naturopathy should not replace conventional methods of treatment for certain conditions," but how is the patient to know? The assumption is that naturopaths will act responsibly, but they have neither the medical training nor the requisite scientific skepticism to do so." This is from page 7. Is it just me, or is there a contradiction here. And I'm only on the first reference so far. I shudder to think what I'll find in the other 87. Sure a lot of them might be peer reviewed, but anything can potentially be guilty of cherry picking or misattribution when you view it with some scientific scepticism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gudzwabofer (talk • contribs) 17:48, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Good job, Gudzwabofer! You really proved the MD-promotion users wrong! --Young Naturopath 01 (talk) 18:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Phew! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Young Naturopath 01 (talk • contribs) 18:13, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Naturopathic Medicine Training

Dear health care colleagues contributing to this page,

I am a student at Bastyr University, completing my third year of my naturopathic medical training. After reviewing this article, I feel that certain assertions regarding naturopathic medicine do not clearly portray the reality for readers. At an accredited school like Bastyr, students undergo rigorous training in all of the biomedical sciences required for medical students. In fact, Bastyr students take equal or more hours of the biomedical sciences as medical students at the University of Washington School of Medicine. My anatomy teacher, Dr. Catrin Pittack previously taught anatomy, embryology, neuroanatomy, histology, and living anatomy at the University of Washington School of Medicine before coming to Bastyr. At National College of Medicine in Portland, immunology and research is taught by Dr. Heather Zwickey, who formerly taught these subjects at Yale Medical School. The faculty for biomedical sciences and clinical coursework at these two leading schools is high quality.

Our training in the sciences is highly challenging in the first year, requiring countless hours of study to move successfully through the program. In the second year we study all the pathology, immunology, and microbiology content required for traditional medical students, along with all of the physical exams, laboratory skills, pharmacology training, and diagnostic coursework required of medical students. Along with this coursework, students receive training in botanical medicine, nutrition, hydrotherapy, physical medicine, pharmacology, counseling, and, yes, homeopathy.

I understand the concerns around homeopathy, but this is only a small part of our training, and is not a modality every student graduating from naturopathic medical student will use. Other naturopathic treatments have a solidly growing evidence base, such as nutrition, botanical medicine, lifestyle management, physical medicine, and mind-body medicine (including counseling and guided relaxation). The research body is building, let's collaborate as a health care community to design great research projects that look at CAM treatments. As a community, many naturopathic doctors hope to expand our evidence base, and both Bastyr and NCNM are actively conducting quality research projects. I understand that the vaccine topic is controversial, but it is incorrect to state that Naturopathic doctor's oppose vaccination. In fact, the opposite is true today. Most ND's recommend most or all of the CDC required vaccinations, and in my class on family medicine the instructor said, "Vaccines are naturopathic," because they are preventative. Further, the Bastyr Center for Natural Health does not recommend against flu vaccination for healthy individuals as stated in the article. For this topic, this article is out of date.

As many patients continue to seek out NDs let's build the growing evidence base by conducting solid research that investigates the botanical medicines, nutritional and lifestyle therapies, physical medicine, and mind-body modalities most commonly used by NDs. As a community, we encourage evidence based medicine and support well designed studies of CAM therapies. Just a quick search on Google Scholar for any of these modalities shows how much peer-reviewed research already exists. As ND's, we are trained as complementary practitioners to work with medical doctors and other health-care professionals. There are places where we shine, and places where medical doctors shine. As family practice doctors continue to decline in most areas, NDs are situated to fill this much needed gap in medicine. Let's work together! I encourage you to take a closer look at the current state of our training and the evidence base. It is true that we are not required to undergo a residency, though during our training we complete at least 120 hours of preceptorship with practicing doctors. Many students do apply for residency after graduation, but the reality is that there are not enough residency opportunities. This is a situation that can and should be changed; if family practice doctors and other health care facilities were willing to offer residencies to NDs this is one way to increase opportunities.

Lastly, please understand that the philosophy of vitalism need not be so controversial. This philosophy simple asserts that all living things are animated by a life force and that when our life force is disturbed, the body tends to move towards health. A simple example is when we get a cut. Over time, the body heals the injury. This is all that is meant by vitalism. In biomedical language, we can understand vitalism as immunology. As NDs, we are mainly working to support the body's immune system, following the science of immunology and research for different therapies. In this way, naturopathic medicine does differ from allopathic medicine, but this difference does not need to divide us, it can serve as the foundation for a positive collaborative relationship.

Thank you for considering these statements. My hope is that NDs and other CAM practitioners and can work with other medical professionals to better serve patients. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.16.12.246 (talk) 04:19, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

This page is to help us improve the article by discussion. Do you have any suggestions for us? Your wall of text above doesn't really help. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 10:25, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Education of Naturopathic Doctors at Accredited College of Naturopathic Medicine

Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine Education

There are five accredited schools of naturopathic medicine in the United States: Bastyr University, National College of Natural Medicine (NCNM), Southwest College of Natural Medicine (SCNM), National University of Health Sciences, and University of Bridgeport College of Naturopathic Medicine. At an accredited school, students undergo rigorous training in the same four year format of medical schools, completing all of the biomedical sciences required for any medical student (CNME, 2014, p. 44-45). The anatomy component includes a gross anatomy lab (CNME, 2014, p. 44). Bastyr University is named by the Princeton Review as one of the 168 best medical schools in the country (Princeton Review, 2005). At Bastyr University, students complete equivalent hours of biomedical sciences as medical students at the University of Washington School of Medicine (AANMC, 2015; Bastyr University, 2015; University of Washington, 2015). On the American Association of Naturopathic Physicians website, there is a summary chart comparing the curriculum of Bastyr University and University of Washington School of Medicine, found here: http://aanmc.org/schools/comparing_nd_md_curricula/

In the second year, naturopathic medicine students study all the pathology, immunology, and microbiology content required for traditional medical students, along with all of the physical exams, laboratory skills, pharmacology training, and diagnostic coursework (CNME, 2014). Along with this coursework, students receive additional training in nutrition, botanical medicine, hydrotherapy, environmental medicine, physical medicine, pharmacology, homeopathy, and counseling (CNME, 2014). Although homeopathy may be considered pseudoscientific, all of the other complementary modalities taught to naturopathic medical students have a solidly growing evidence base, and many allopathic medical schools are now designing alternative programs that teach these same modalities (University of Arizona, 2015; Duke Integrative Medicine, 2015).

Clinical training at the accredited colleges of naturopathic medicine begins in year three. The majority of clinical shifts focus on general medicine, along with specialized shifts in physical medicine, nutrition, lifestyle counseling, environmental medicine, immune wellness, minor office procedures, homeopathy, integrative pain management, diabetes and cardiovascular disease (CNME, 2014). Over the course of clinical training in years 3 and 4, students average 600 patient contacts made during a minimum of 1,200 clinical training hours (CNME, 2014, p. 46). Although there is no residency requirement, accredited naturopathic colleges have implemented a preceptorship program. To meet graduation requirements, students must complete an additional 132 hours of preceptorship by shadowing health care professionals in their practice (CNME, 2014, p. 46-47). Many students do apply for residency after graduation, but the reality is that there are not enough residency opportunities for NDs. This is a situation that can and should be changed; if family practice doctors and other health care facilities were willing to offer residencies to NDs this is one way to increase opportunities.

Citations

American Association of Naturopathic Physicians. 2015. http://www.naturopathic.org/education

Association of Accredited Naturopathic Medical Colleges (AANMC), 2015. Comparing ND and MD Curricula. http://aanmc.org/schools/comparing_nd_md_curricula/

Bastyr University. 2015. Curriculum for Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine. http://www.bastyr.edu/academics/areas-study/study-naturopathic-medicine/naturopathic-doctor-degree-program#Curriculum

Council on Naturopathic Medical Education (CNME), 2014. Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medical Programs.

Duke Integrate Medicine, 2015. http://www.dukeintegrativemedicine.org/professional-training/professional-training-and-certificate-programs

University of Arizona, 2015. Arizona Center for Integrative Medicine. http://integrativemedicine.arizona.edu/education/fellowship/

University of Washington Medicine. 2015. Basic Science Curriculum. http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/current-students/curriculum/basic-sciences

Are there secondary sources covering this? We'd need mainstream ones. Alexbrn 17:36, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Not an ideal source, but it is a secondary source and does verify significant aspects of what is said above: http://www.amsa.org/AMSA/Homepage/About/Committees/ND_AB.aspx TylerDurden8823 (talk) 18:38, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Mainstream Secondary Sources for Prior Post

Dear Alebrn,

Finding secondary mainstream sources on the specifics is a challenge, because secondary sources do not go into the level of detail as the accredited schools for the curricula. So far, this is what I have:

Council on Naturopathic Medical Education. 2014. Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medical Programs. This is the primary source. CNME is an independent non-profit accreditation oversight group that sets the requirements for naturopathic medical program accreditation. My submission is a brief summary of some of the main requirements for accreditation. For more detail and as a reference for the information I submitted, please refer to CNME's handbook here, which covers all the requirements of basic sciences training as well as clinical training: http://www.cnme.org/resources/2014_cnme_handbook_of_accreditation.pdf. I will update the original submission with specific page references to this document.

CNME is the accreditation information used by states to assess schools. Here is the State of Oregon's link to the CNME website: http://www.oregon.gov/obnm/pages/fiveshools.aspx

Other sources:

Princeton Review, 2005. Best 162 Medical Schools. Random House Information Group. See section on Bastyr University (sorry no online version)

On the University of Washington's youth outreach web page, they link to AANMC (same source I used) to provide information to undergraduates about becoming a naturopathic physician. This link can be found here: http://www.uwmedicine.org/education/md-program/admissions/explore-healthcare.

The University of Washington School of Medicine also has links to Bastyr University on this page, and maintains a respectful perspective towards both naturopathic medicine and acupuncture. UW medicine provides direct links from their website to the information I cited for my article, because the school finds the information credible and accurate. I will obtain a letter from the University of Washington School of Medicine stating this to help this process.

Here is a link to Oregon Health Sciences University's page on integrative medicine: http://www.ohsu.edu/xd/about/news_events/news/2005/03-08-ohsu-integrative-medicin.cfm. OHSU hires NDs as part of their staff. Although they do not go into the details of the program in a way I can cite, they validate the training I described in the article. I will also write OHSU for a letter that validates the information in the article I submitted.

Here is a link to Seattle Cancer Care Alliance's page on the Naturopathic Doctors they hire: http://www.seattlecancerwellness.com/naturopathic_oncologists.html I am writing Seattle Cancer Care Alliance for validation of the facts in the article I submitted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Solomonmorris (talk • contribs) 19:24, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Naturopathy in Australia

This page was just brought to my attention by a fellow student, and wow, what a lack of proper research methods by those who purport to be upholding the scientific method.

I'm in Australia studying the second year of a Bachelor of Health Science (Naturopathy). The level of education is in some cases above what is required for practice and contains a large practical component. The 1977 review is grossly outdated, I will endeavour to find more recent ones. It is true that anyone can still call themselves a naturopath, something which occurs in some other natural health professions, although it is likely that the more stringent regulatory requirements recently placed on chinese medicine will soon be applied to other fields. Health insurance companies only recognise accredited naturopaths who have completed a majority of their coursework on campus.

Basically this means that aside from the first sentence, the whole Australian section will need be replaced (I'm also planning to throw my weight behind a few of the other debates going on in this page). Gudzwabofer (talk) 02:59, 20 March 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gudzwabofer (talk • contribs) 02:43, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

welcome to WP. Before you start "throwing your weight" around, please make sure you understand WIkipedia's policies and guidelines - there are "rules" here for content and for behavior. Editing Misplaced Pages is a privilege, not a right, and if violate WP's policies and guidelines, you will lose your editing privileges (in other words, you will get topic banned or site banned). Passion can be a good thing, but learn to walk before you "enter into battle". Please ask plenty of questions and really listen to the answers. Jytdog (talk) 02:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, that does seem like it could mean like a giant troll who hurls boulders. I mean my intellectual weight. There's a lot of sources out there, many of them peer reviewed in widely respected journals, which should hopefully bring more balance to the article. While Lust coined the name, many of his methods are questioned or dismissed by present day naturopaths, but this disagreement isn't something that's foreign to other healthcare fields. Gudzwabofer (talk) 03:11, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Page Structure

Ok looking at the possibility of expanding this page, I think there's structural things which may need to happen:

International Focus;

Most sections describing naturopathy, and even many of the criticisms, are based on north american naturopathic practice. As education, practice, and regulation can vary quite considerably from country to country, I'm recommending that at the very least the "Practitioners" section, which could include education and professional bodies, be laid out in a similar manner to the regulation section. As for methods, there are some things I know Naturopaths in Australia either can't do legally, such as Acupuncture or Chinese medicine, which are now both regulated, or aren't generally trained to do. I think the only greatly controversial thing in BHsc(Nat) is iridology, which just takes up one unit. The other thing I've noticed on some pages is the "reception" listed by country, and I'm also wondering where private health rebates fit in. Is that a regulation issue?

Criticisms and Controversies

I think this could well be made into a section on its own, the criticisms particular to north american naturopathic practice already have enough to fill one subheading, as does cancer, vaccines, safety of treatments, the claims of lack of scientific basis, the issues surrounding unlicensed or unqualified practitioners (a big one in Australia). I don't think much of this belongs in other sections which should be a neutral description of the history and modality, especially when many of the criticisms don't apply to all naturopaths. Most of these issues should also have links to more in depth pages surrounding those issues. I've added a link for vaccines, and I know there are well written pages for others. 'Alternative Cancer Treatments' and 'List of herbs with known adverse effects', are two pages which seem quite comprehensive, with a fair degree of scientific rigour.

Diagnosis

I'm wondering if this should have a section of it's own or whether it should be regionalised. It could come partly under criticisms and controversies, and it could also come under a larger heading of the relationships between naturopaths and other medical professionals. In my course we are actively discouraged from making diagnoses, knowing when to refer to a gp or specialist can be a matter of life and death at times, and can require insistence, especially as many natural health clients are somewhat cautious of their local gp. This is also the other side the correlation surrounding low vaccination rates in natural health clients, and other untreated illnesses, although I'm not sure where it should fit in.

Reception

I've noticed this on other natural health pages, and I'm wondering if this should have a separate section, in terms of reception and utilisation by the public, and acceptance, or lack thereof, by governments and medical authorities. This is another thing which makes me wonder whether it would be better to split most of the article into countries and contain "education", "practitioners", "methods", "regulation", and "reception" under each of those. Leaving the "introduction", "history", "criticisms/controversies" as the only standalone sections.

Anyway, some of these points sort of spilled into each other, so I hope it's easy enough to see what I'm getting at. I'm already collecting a considerable amount of solid references for Australian Naturopathy, and a few for Europe. I'm wondering do I post links here in talk so they can be discussed before use in the main page?Gudzwabofer (talk) 16:27, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Hi Gudzwabofer. Generally, we discourage separating out criticism into a separate section (see WP:CSECTION), and instead encourage incorporating it into its own article. In this case, your recommendation to remove criticism, scientific basis, efficacy, etc, from most of the article and place it all within individual sections is contrary to that practice. Instead of encouraging a "neutral description" of the topic, it would encourage a description of the topic that is biased towards naturopathic claims.   — Jess· Δ♥ 17:24, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

• Looking at the Ozzie course outlines at Endeavour, it would seem to indicate that such miracles as homeopathy, flower essence therapy and acupuncture therapy are still being treated as serious subjects of study there. From their FAQ, naturopaths "... stimulate the body’s innate self-healing ability through therapies such as homeopathy and hydrotherapy, or through physical or creative activities that stimulate the vital force." (my link) It seems clear that they are trying to apply the same gloss of professional credentialling as their North American counterparts. One would hope that a student who can afford A$72,000 for a bac might wish to get something of real value in exchange.

• The "Diagnosis" bit comes down to this: what extent of scientific education qualifies someone to be trustworthy as a primary care diagnostician? If it takes doctorate-level education in an M.D. program, why would a bac be enough in a naturopathy program? Is it not still necessary to understand what's going on in the body?

LeadSongDog come howl! 17:44, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Quick note - strategy

further reading

Use of Jagtenberg source

I also have an issue with this:

Naturopaths aim to prevent illness through stress reduction and changes to diet and lifestyle, often rejecting the methods of evidence based medicine.

References

1. Pizzorno, Joseph E. (1999). "Naturopathy: Practice Issues". In Clark, Carolyn C.; Gordon, Rena J. (eds.). Encyclopedia of Complementary Health Practice. Springer Publishing. pp. 57–59. ISBN 9780826117229. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help)
2. Jagtenberg, Tom; Evans, Sue; Grant, Airdre; Howden, Ian; Lewis, Monique; Singer, Judy (April 2006). "Evidence-based medicine and naturopathy". Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 12 (3): 323–8. doi:10.1089/acm.2006.12.323. PMID 16646733. {{cite journal}}: Unknown parameter |displayauthors= ignored (|display-authors= suggested) (help)

I checked both sources. The one which list concerns with EBM is a small focus group, which seems to be assembled for that specific purpose, the other source actually discusses how present day naturopathy is science based.Gudzwabofer (talk) 19:25, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

It sounds like you are objecting to the sources? Please confirm. If so, upon what policy or guideline is your objection based? Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 19:29, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Note. I amended the quotation to above to include the sources, to make discussion easier. Jytdog (talk) 19:31, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm tired, so I'll have to get back to you after I have a chance to pore over the lingo tomorrow. All I know for now is that if I handed in that sentence with those references at any reputable tertiary institution I'd get an F.Gudzwabofer (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Ok, here goes. So the statement "naturopaths...often rejecting the methods of evidence based medicine."

The Jagtenberg reference, for which there's a free link here - http://epubs.scu.edu.au/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1092&context=hahs_pubs is a small focus group discussion about the concerns the members had with EBM. The main issue raised seems to be the weight given to the RCT, which is itself only part of EBM, rather than a complete rejection of the idea of EBM, anyway, leaving aside from the further broader debate my last sentence may give rise to, the second reference, Pizzorno, mentions EBM and medical science in the context of their acceptance by naturopaths, and their place in naturopathic education. I'm having trouble finding the policy related to misrepresentation of sources, although there is WP:CHERRYPICKING, discussion of a well known no no in the academic world, but I believe it at least violates WP:NPOV, specifically WP:BALASPS WP:UNDUE WP:SUBSTANTIATE WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV being that of the available sources, the contributor has only given weight to the idea that naturopaths often reject the methods of EBM, when the references describe a lot of acceptance of EBM and a few misgivings about certain aspects.Gudzwabofer (talk) 02:17, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Traditional naturopathic practitioners surveyed in Australia perceive evidence based medicine to be an ideologic assault on their beliefs in vitalistic and holistic principles.

This is a similar sweeping statement based on limited sample size from the small Jagtenberg focus group, for, which I might add participants were selected who were "tradition-sensitive naturopathic practitioners" comprised of "The contributing authors of this paper and other colleagues constituted themselves as a small focus group." In other words, it's more resembles a few close friends having a chat than a statistically significant scientific study, which the authors advise it isn't. If there is a broader survey contained in this paper, then I apologise in advance for missing it.Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Comments on recent extensive edits

I just reverted a few changes out of concern that they misrepresented our sourcing (at least with respect to due weight). Of most concern is this bit: Among its findings was that "A review of 77 systematic reviews published between 2001 and 2003 suggested that there is now evidence of the benefits of naturopathy and WHM for almost every body system and all major illnesses.... This is directly contrary to a slew of sources we're using in the article, which are largely reflective of the scientific consensus. We can't place that much weight on the claims of naturopathy when they so strongly conflict with the scientific consensus.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

that is scientific consensus, it's a large systematic review commissioned by a government body, the reason it's in contradiction with the rest of the article is that the rest of the article has numerous violations of NPOV. if anything the 1977 reference should be reviewed as it's outdated. I'm considering referring this whole page to a higher power for review.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:04, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The only justification for removal you can have is that they misrepresent their own sources, or that the sources themselves are flawed. On this can I just delete everything I believe is guilty of the same thing? Submitting this whole page for review.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:09, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

What you cited is not a systematic review, no. It references "a review" which it doesn't cite, supposedly covering 2001-2003. We have newer sources than that which actually pass WP:MEDRS. There's absolutely no way we can say there's scientific evidence naturopathy has those kind of sweeping benefits without extremely strong sourcing, and this isn't it.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:12, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, please indent your posts. You're welcome to see WP:RSN to discuss the reliability of that source, if you'd like. There are no "higher powers" here.   — Jess· Δ♥ 06:14, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm emailing the volunteer response team. You didn't even read the paper, systematic reviews were among its methods. It's another example of the persistent militant bias on this page. I'm not allowed to remove one terrible source or ill referenced statement, but you can remove something that's balanced and well attributed? It's a joke. Take a moment to consider what pseudoscience really is.Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:23, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I've also posted it where you suggested, at https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Naturopathy. All good so far.Gudzwabofer (talk) 09:20, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

sources

Let's talk sources, shall we?

I just reviewed the sources used in the article and here is what I found. I went ahead and took out a couple that were blatantly bad already that are not listed here...

used and OK per MEDRS

• "Naturopathic Medicine". American Cancer Society. January 16, 2013. Retrieved March 21, 2015.

used and not OK for health content per MEDRS, in my view

• Barrett, Stephen; Raso, Jack (1993). Mystical Diets: Paranormal, Spiritual, and Occult Nutrition Practices. Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books. ISBN 0879757612. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Herbert, Victor; Barrett, Stephen (1994). The Vitamin Pushers: How the "Health Food" Industry is Selling America a Bill of Goods. Buffalo, NY: Prometheus Books. ISBN 9780879759094. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Pizzorno, Joseph E. (1999). "Naturopathy: Practice Issues". In Carolyn C.; Gordon, Rena J. (eds.). Encyclopedia of Complementary Health Practice. Springer Publishing. pp. 57–59. ISBN 9780826117229. {{cite book}}: |access-date= requires |url= (help); External link in |chapterurl= (help); Unknown parameter |chapterurl= ignored (|chapter-url= suggested) (help) - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Jarvis, William T. (January 30, 2001) . "NCAHF Fact Sheet on Naturopathy". National Council Against Health Fraud. Retrieved 2009-04-17. - WAY too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Atwood, Kimball C., IV (2003). "Naturopathy: A critical appraisal". Medscape General Medicine. 5 (4): 39. PMID 14745386.{{cite journal}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Atwood IV, Kimball. C. (March 26, 2004). "Naturopathy, pseudoscience, and medicine: Myths and fallacies vs truth". Medscape General Medicine. 6 (1): 33. PMC 1140750. PMID 15208545. -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Boughton, Barbara; Frey, Rebecca J. (2005). "Naturopathic Medicine". Gale Encyclopedia of Alternative Medicine (Online ed.). Gale. -- too old per WP:MEDDATE
• Jagtenberg, Tom; Evans, Sue; Grant, Airdre; Howden, Ian; et al. (April 2006). "Evidence-based medicine and naturopathy". Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine. 12 (3): 323–328. doi:10.1089/acm.2006.12.323. PMID 16646733. {{cite journal}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) -- too old per WP:MEDDATE

hm...

• Barrett, Stephen (November 26, 2013). "A close look at naturopathy". QuackWatch. Retrieved 2015-03-21.
• Beyerstein, Barry L.; Downie, Susan (May 12, 2004). "Naturopathy: A Critical Analysis". NaturoWatch. QuackWatch. Retrieved 2009-03-21.
• Carroll, Robert T. (March 7 2015). "Naturopathy". The Skeptic's Dictionary. Retrieved 2015-03-21. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

and hmmm, with respect to WP:INDY

• "Handbook of Accreditation for Naturopathic Medicine Programs" (PDF). Council on Naturopathic Medical Education. 2007. Retrieved 2010-11-20.
• Sarris, Jerome; Wardle, Jon (2010). Clinical Naturopathy: An evidence-based guide to practice. Sydney: Churchill Livingstone / Elsevier Health Sciences. pp. 32–36. ISBN 9780729579261. Retrieved 2013-09-01.

I think that Gudzwabofer had a point, about the sourcing being pretty shitty in this article.

I did a bit of searching and found the following that are not used...

not used

• Fleming SA, Gutknecht NC. Naturopathy and the primary care practice. Prim Care. 2010 Mar;37(1):119-36. doi: 10.1016/j.pop.2009.09.002. Review. PMID 20189002 PMC 2883816
• Snyder J, Brown P. Complementary and alternative medicine in children: an analysis of the recent literature. Curr Opin Pediatr. 2012 Aug;24(4):539-46. doi: 10.1097/MOP.0b013e328355a214. Review. PMID 22732637
• Esposito S, Principi N, Cornaglia G; ESCMID Vaccine Study Group (EVASG). * Barriers to the vaccination of children and adolescents and possible solutions. Clin Microbiol Infect. 2014 May;20 Suppl 5:25-31. doi: 10.1111/1469-0691.12447. Epub 2014 Jan 24. Review. PMID 24354949 (note: doesn't talk about naturopathy per se, but says "Some parents believe that the immunity evoked by vaccines is less effective than that due to natural disease, and they prefer to face the risks of illness rather than those of immunization. This was clearly shown by Prislin et al, who found that, together with safety concerns, beliefs in natural immunity were the main contributors to parents' negative attitudes to vaccinations"

I think the article needs some updating... I hope folks won't oppose updating things. Jytdog (talk) 21:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Oh, yes, the article certainly needs updating, primarily with respect to sourcing. I've been doing that every now and then, but my time for source hunting is fairly limited. Have at it. If anyone has a complaint, I'm sure they'll let you know :p Thanks for the summary above!   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:02, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice work. I'll see what I can dig up in the next couple of weeks and I'll post a reading lost of sources for consideration. Particularly I'll have a new Australian Government Report which comes out on April 1, and I'll see what I can find on region specific practice and regulation. I'll also see if any decent systematic reviews exist, naturopathy as a whole could be difficult, but I should be able to find something on each of the different methods. Some might exist on linked pages as well. Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

is acupuncture naturopathy?

real question. doesn't seem like it is to me, based on sources i see. doesn't fit with the ideology of naturopathy as i understand it, as sticking needles in people isn't "natural". there may be an overlap in people who like, use, or do both, but I don't think they are the same. if nobody has a source saying that acupuncture is within naturopathy, i intend to remove that... Jytdog (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm absolutely certain that acupuncture falls within the scope of naturopathy (at least for some practitioners). However, I don't have a source on hand. If I get some time to track one down, I'll let you know. Thanks.   — Jess· Δ♥ 23:03, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

thanks! i may remove it in the meantime. none of the sources i have checked today say that, so far. we can always restore it, if a source is found. Jytdog (talk) 23:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Depends on jurastiction I think. In Australia acupuncture is regulated to qualified acupuncturists. Same with TCM. There's a new fed gov report coming out on the 1st of April I think related specifically to private health rebates but it should provide a decent up to date overview. Europe I noticed has different regs for each country.Gudzwabofer (talk) 03:14, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

In the US, "Their scope of practice is defined by law in the state in which they practice (for example, depending on the state, naturopathic physicians may or may not be allowed to prescribe drugs, perform minor surgery, practice acupuncture, and/or assist in childbirth)." Per the NCCIH. LeadSongDog come howl! 01:26, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

interesting. Thanks! that looks like some more digging is required. if it is just a few states i don't know that it makes sense to include acupuncture in the first sentence of the lead. if it is a bunch of them, then yes. Jytdog (talk) 02:17, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I would say a bunch of countries, not just a bunch of us states, otherwise it belongs in a usa specific section. Gudzwabofer (talk) 05:14, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

According to http://mx.nccaom.org/StateLicensing.aspx which has links to all the relevant state government pages except a few where it's banned, 22 states require its certification (which there is a link to educational requirement of on the page) to practice acupuncture, 6 states ban acupuncture entirely, leaving 23 states where one may or may not be able to practice acupuncture without being technically an acupuncturist or TCM practitioner in addition to whatever other qualifications they may hold. Different regulatory requirements may exist for the remaining 23 states, so the links for state departments for those need to be looked into. There's also a wikipedia page specifically on global Regulation of acupuncture but it's hardly comprehensive. And could well be expanded by the state government pages linked by the nccaom. Gudzwabofer (talk) 06:50, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I did a quick read through of the others, they all require state acupuncturist licences, and mention either one or more of the following: state exam, accreditation by the nccaom or acaom, degrees in tcm or acupuncture, often with specified required anounts of science and practical education. I can't find anything to suggest that someone who only holds qualifications in naturopathy can practice acupuncture. This is also an important distinction which should be made in the naturopathy wiki page, because if you are in the US and you see someone who is practising acupuncture without a state acupuncturist license, they are breaking the law and probably don't have adequate education to be safely sticking needles into people or ensuring proper hygiene while doing so. Gudzwabofer (talk) 07:28, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

NPOV review needed?

I was told to slow down on the debate surrounding NPOV and the quality and use of sources on this page. However every time I place the disputed neutrality tag on the page it is removed. If the tag is to be removed sooner there are only three ways I can see it happening.

1.The NPOV debate should be brought to its conclusion, with answers to the questions hanging over all current sources and their use being resolved, as well as the assessment for inclusion of sources which have been previously proposed, including some which have been removed with limited justification after attempted inclusion. -or- 2.All disputed sources and the content derived from them should be immediately removed. Pending their justification. -or- 3.The whole page should be submitted for a neutrality review. For which a summary of issues can be provided from previous posts, edit history, and the current page and reference list.

If you need additional reasons and discussion of references and their use in addition to what is already present on the talk page and revert history, then they can be provided in a timely manner, but again, I was told to slow down because there hasn't been long enough for people to consider what is there already.

Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Given you are a student of naturopathy, you don't seem to accept the mainstream view that it is a pseudoscience and are thus editing with a clear COI. --NeilN 13:16, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The mainstream view is that elements of naturopathy have scientific support, the percentage of naturopathy which is scientifically grounded is largely dependent on education and practice, something which can vary from region to region. These points and more are things which are even shown in some of the references used on this page, however, as they have been cherry picked, and attempts to use more compete information from the sources has been blocked, only one side of the story has been shown. A declaration of interest doesn't preclude me of being critical of this page, as it shouldn't for those who are avowed sceptics with or without a background in medical science. It's about whether the page provides a complete picture of the facts, which at present, it does not. It's largely a presentation of the negative aspects of United States naturopathy. Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:28, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

You must be observing the naturopathic mainstream view, not the mainstream mainstream view. -Roxy the dog™ (resonate) 13:31, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

One small example: The cancer society reference has this quote:

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine is effective for most health problems. Most of the claims of effectiveness are based on individual cases, medical records, and summaries of practitioners’ clinical experiences.

One clinical study that looked at treatment of ear pain in children tested the effectiveness of naturopathic ear drops, anesthetic ear drops, and oral antibiotics. The pain improved over 3 days in all groups, and the naturopathic drops were slightly more effective than the anesthetic drops. Antibiotics were not helpful and may have slowed recovery, as explained by other studies and the guidelines of most conventional medical groups, which do not recommend antibiotics for uncomplicated ear pain.

A Canadian study looked at anxiety in adults and found that a 12-week course of psychotherapy helped reduce anxiety, but did not help as much as a multi-pronged naturopathic approach. Of note, the psychotherapy was given by a person whose training and methods were not outlined in the study report and, like the ear pain study, may not have met the usual standards of mainstream care for the comparison group. The groups were not followed beyond 12 weeks to see if the effects lasted.

Naturopathic medicine includes many methods, which have been shown to vary in effectiveness. Available scientific evidence looking at methods such as homeopathy and colonic irrigation has not shown them to be helpful for cancer or any other disease. Other aspects of naturopathic medicine, like healthy nutrition, have been shown to lower the risk of illnesses such as heart disease and cancer. Some aspects of naturopathic medicine may be useful when used along with conventional medical treatment.

Which was clipped to this:

scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published.

Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

The overview on naturopathy the cancer society gives is thus:

Available scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published. The individual methods used by naturopathic medicine vary in their effectiveness. Homeopathy, for instance, has been shown in studies to be of little value. Other naturopathic methods have been shown to help in prevention and symptom management. Examples include diet for lowering the risk of severe illnesses such as heart disease and cancer and counseling, relaxation, and herbs to help reduce anxiety.

NOT:

scientific evidence does not support claims that naturopathic medicine can cure cancer or any other disease, since virtually no studies on naturopathy as a whole have been published. Gudzwabofer (talk) 13:48, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

If I were to summarize that cancer society statement, it would be "On the evidence, naturopathic medicine cures nothing. While some methods have no value at all, others help symptoms but not causes." Would that suit you any better? I suspect that the source has overstated the case, but we use the sources we have. (Some naturopathic methods (particularly herbals) do have some curative value beyond placebo, just not as much curative value as gold-standard medicine, otherwise they would be gold-standard medicine. Nutritional support is the obvious example.) LeadSongDog come howl! 14:59, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm logging off for the night, but I'll say a couple of final things (and I maybe won't be able to say anything tomorrow). There is a big difference between the terms "unproven effectiveness" and "proven ineffectiveness." Also, if you want to have a larger debate about herbal medicine and its effectiveness in whole, extract, and isolated compound form in mainstream medicine, that probably belongs on the herbal medicine page. Gudzwabofer (talk) 15:19, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Just to be clear... our goal is not to find ways to make naturopathy seem reasonable; our goal is to represent the claims of naturopathy accurately. You may find it reasonable to consider the advice of naturopaths in conjunction with mainstream med, and that is your prerogative, but that opinion is not a basis for deciding due weight. At its heart, naturopathy is not just "eat right and exercise"; at its heart are a slew of non-evidence-based claims about what constitutes common sense healthy living. I know a naturopath: he explained to me last week that if you have lung cancer, it can be cured by eating lungs. Exercise is a part of mainstream med too (don't believe the trope that doctors only prescribe medications and ignore lifestyle changes - the ACS strongly recommends diet and exercise, for example); where naturopathy shines through and differentiates itself from EBM is its non-EBM claims.   — Jess· Δ♥ 19:00, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

just to be clear, look at my contribs. I know what NPOV is and I spent about 90% of my editing keeping FRINGE and quackery out of Misplaced Pages. i said "common sense mainstream medicine today - eat right, exercise, etc," and when I say i have been reading mainstream sources I mean sources like Ernst. Jytdog (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2015 (UTC)