Misplaced Pages

• : Since everyone's an admin here, I assume everyone here can run their own CheckUser on the suspected accounts. I have no idea exactly how CU works beyond the fact that it checks one's IP, but I am sure there are other checks as well. My confidence in me being vindicated can be simply explained by the fact that I know I am innocent of all charges, therefore whatever process/tech is involved in the CU, will find that I was not socking, even without me having to know exactly how it works. I had been willing to put this past me, and made that very clear to OccultZone on his talk page, even though he chose to remove my "olive leaf" twice. I have even asked JamesBWatson to ask him to cool down , since he seemed to hold JamesBWatson in high esteem, to stop what I sensed was a slow-motion-trainwreck, without any success.

I know not the actions of my fellow accused (I'm frankly too tired to bother at the moment to see their contributions page), but the "admin shopping" OccultZone said I was doing, were mostly to ask how I could get CU expedited, and also what remedies I can pursue for being continually harassed by OccultZone. He can keep taking popshots for free at me, while keeping his hands busy but clean, while I am getting an SPI, and now an ANI against me. Since this has escalated to ANI, I welcome any and all to run an CU on me against TCKTKtool, Resaltador and Resaltador. I already volunteered that DanS was by brother in the same household so I am told that CU would not reveal anything other than show that we lived in the same household, so I don't know how helpful that is, but go ahead if you feel that is useful for your conclusions. Because either I am the world's greatest hacker, I hired an army of scary socks, OR, I am simply innocent of the claims OccultZone has yet again thrown at me.

And since we're at ANI, I would seriously welcome any suggestions on how to stop OccultZone from harassing me further. My socking infraction came early in my editing career, and even then, I signed off on the edit with "Zhanzhao" as I had no intention of hiding my identity, and was merely trying to get an answer at one of the boards before the thread went dead. His actions are clearly now running the gamut of incivility, personal attacks and harrassment. Cos what next, when this goes against him yet again? Am I to be continually subject to this misguided vendetta against me? Or whoever happens to have different opinion and edit against OccultZone? Please. Run the CU against me again. Let the evidence speak for itself. Zhanzhao (talk) 16:19, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

As for OccultZone not finding anything similar from any other account other than me and my fellow accused, let me present this . Which basically refutes his claim that he could not find anything similar. Its because he didn't want to, while, I have been pushed to the corner to prove him wrong.Zhanzhao (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I also want to highlight that even when DoRD pointed out the evidence was weak, OccultZone promtly removed DoRD's comment with his collapse. So I am not even allowed to have someone else speak up for me. Zhanzhao (talk) 16:29, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Do you know that you have just thrown yourself into the territory of WP:TROLL? First one you had lied to be your bro. Now history of these pointed socks explicits that you are abusing them occasionally. Whenever there be an edit war over the content of that article you will produce a new "army" of sock puppets. If that's wrong, why they are not coming to defend themselves the way you just did? Or you will just go now and log into each? VandVictory (talk) 16:34, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

That would only be true if the accusations are true. But try to imagine if the accusations were false. As I said. Run CU on me before making judgement. Whatever DoRD sees must be pretty compelling, even though I don't know what that is. Zhanzhao (talk) 16:40, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Why you are shouting the same absurd every time? There was firstly no need of a CU. You have clearly abused the multiple accounts for pushing your POV on a specific article, same way you were abusing DanS76. That is seriously enough for considering that only you can do it. That is also backed by great amount of similarities, that you share with these obvious socks. There are hundreds of SPIs where even new editors could evade CU. That way you are still more experienced, already spending so many years in sock puppetry.

If you are not a sock, why you even bother to bludgeon the SPI and bludgeon this ANI with baseless commentaries? OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

We have to first make sure that what actually convinced Salvidrim that you both were brothers and not one person, when evidence was enough to consider you as one. Also we have to make sure that you weren't aware of the policy, even though you have clearly stated to have read WP:SOCK#LEGIT after you were blocked for socking. Furthermore you were opening and contributing to SPIs. It was a poor judgement of Salvidrim which is now up for review. Also reading the above editors comments that you intentionally retired DanS76, because it was no more of use, you couldn't use it anymore on same articles, it is simply obvious that you are socking. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:56, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Fine. As Dan had suggested previously, point me to a high-level admin. I can email him a scan of me and my brother's identification which shows us living in the same address, and the email will also explain beyond doubt why thats our identification and not something I borrowed off 2 real brothers off the street. I will also furnish supporting evidence why I use StongVPN in the first place - Its not to sock - which will be very clear in my mail. Note, however, that I do this VERY RELUCTANTLY, as this is obviously leaving me to higher chances of identity theft which Dan had already pointed out I am very paranoid about, but I am sick and tired of these string of accusations. I had though that spending (wasting) my time showing why OccultZone's evidence was laughable (which DoRD already also mentioned was weak and circumstantial) would have been enough, but apparently this is not so. If I am really a sock, I wouldn't even need to resort to this, I can just retire this account as well, and start afresh from a new account. But I'll be very pissed (a very strong understatement) if OccultZone gets off scott free now, since there's nothing to prevent him from continuing to harass me and keep attacking the integrity of my account. And hence, I will now insist that some punitive action be taken against my harasser. Is that fair?

The reason why OccultZone is out to get me is because he mistakenly blames me for getting him blocked since he's under the assumption that I was socking as the one/more of the accounts that here. Which was why he opened the 2nd SPI. And when the 2nd SPI showed that there were no relationships between the accounts through CU and otherwise, which means I was not the cause of him getting blocked, OccultZone refused to believe it and attempts to link it back to the first SPI which was totally unrelated and involved totally different accounts, to find any way he can in a misguided attempt to get back at me. You'll note that one thing OccultZone has not done up to now, which he very actively did in the 2nd SPI, was to report any overlaps of article editing in the accounts of the 1st(DanS76) and 2nd SPIs(Resaltador and TCKTKtool). The only single convergent point, was the article that got him blocked. Beyond that, he's rambling evidence like "Oh look, they capitalizing the "T"s for Talk in 2 edit summaries, they must berelated." Look at the evidence in the 2nd SPI he pulled out. Then what DoRD thought about it. (Unfortunatelty you have to check the history of the page because OccultZone removed DoRD's comments). Then my pointing out that the supposed common behavioral traits he identified between the socks, OccultZone was doing the same thing as well. Is OccultZone my sock as well? Zhanzhao (talk) 23:46, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

I would be fine with confirming your identities as you propose (as I'm sure DoRD would), however I am afraid there is some likelihood that OccultZone would take our word for it anyways! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 00:21, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Salvidrim! He will show the identity card of his father and present him like his brother, and we will believe it? How come such fairytales don't fall under the violation of WP:ILLEGIT. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 00:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. We're both out at work now (Its morning now here), I'll scan and send them over via email to you ASAP. (I'll wait for DoRD's confirmation - as I said, I'll only send it out when absolutely necessary). I'll trust you to keep the information confidential, thanks. Zhanzhao (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

It is not a matter how much you can fake DanS76 to be your brother or not. You cannot show a video of both of you edit warring on same articles for one, forget it. You switched accounts, that's what we know. If you can show both of the accounts editing together at the same minute, that would really work. But you cannot. Even if you did,(which is impossible) that was still the violation of WP:ILLEGIT. It is not an assumption that you weren't socking. It is a fact that you are socking. If you are not a sock, then why you are bludgeoning this ANI with your garbage? Just like you had recently bludgeoned that SPI. It is also correct that I am investigating in this matter because we don't want any sort of trouble because you. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 00:46, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You're the one heaping wildaccusations after wild accusations at me, first at the 2nd SPI, and now here. The only thing I did was to defend myself, and you call that bludgeoning? Is that your ideal vision of wikipedia, slamming anyone you dont't like and just expect them to take it lying down? Cos I noticed that you did not even bother to notify me that there was an ANI here. A video of 2 guys editing in front of the computer would not mean anything. If I were really socking, it could just be a guy I got off the street to pass off as what you assume to be my fake brother. Our identity cards are issued by the country's authorities, which has info like name, address, birthdate, and other info which I will explain to the admin how they helped us decide our editor names, hence proving conclusively that there are indeed 2 of us. I will not scan my dad's card, because just revealing our 2 cards is more than I am comfortable with. But the birthdates shown on the cards are more than conclusive proof that its my brother, not father. Zhanzhao (talk) 01:37, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

These fairytales don't support any policy or even an essay that can be used for exempting you from socking, especially when you had admitted to have read WP:SOCK#LEGIT, right when you were blocked for evasion. Similar to other sock, Resaltador. Kindly stop trolling. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 01:48, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

IF I was really socking as Resaltador, and allegedly had alternate accounts of TCKTKtool, DanS and of course Zhanzhao, wouldn't it have been smarter of me to use one of these and pretend to be an uninvolved editor, instead of using an IP while posting in a manner that readily identifies me, even, as you pointed out, that would get it banned since I had that happen to me before? Unless you think I purposely want it to get banned? And you're claiming I'm spinning fairytales? Are you even thinking through what you are posting? Zhanzhao (talk) 02:57, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Resaltador also don't know the difference between banned and block, just like you don't know. That's how it cannot be anyone else other than you. You socked with that account for supporting yourself, and also socked with TCKTKtool and IP for edit warring, just like you were socking with DanS76. There is a huge list of similarities. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 03:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I know the difference. I am just getting fed up from being harassed and victimized and am DEFINITELY not calm now, so pardon me if I make the mistake of mixing up block and ban. I was typing off a freaking ipad1 during lunch that crashes on me cos the thread is so long, and had to retype that 3 times. For me, in my mind, the 2 words might as well be the same thing now, because I am being hounded and not even allowed to defend myself, since any defense isbeing labeled as "bludgeoning the topic". A check user has already been run against me, Resaltador, and TCKTKtool that proved we were different accounts. And to VandVictory who asked why Resaltafor and TCKTKtool are not responding, only they can answer that. But one BIG reason could be because OccultZone did not bother to tell them about this ANI, which he was supposed to. He didn't even tell me. The only reason I knew is because I have this page on my watchlist. This time, run a Check User against Dan, Resaltador, and TCKTKtool. Check if/how Resaltador and TCKTKtool has ever "helped" me before the article that caused OccultZone to be blocked. Go all the way to when the accounts were started. IF a CU like that still shows that all 3 are distinctly different account, me socking would be the least of the concerns here. It would imply that I have actual inside information on how CU works from way way back, a severe implication that has huge ramifications: that Check User just cannot be trusted anymore at all and you guys should just scrap it, since you guys are unwilling to trust your own tools to tell you the truth and would rather listen to a conspiracy theory that's been noted as being flimsy and countered (or in his word, bludgeoned). I'll send Salvidrim! the info I promised that would show that me and Dan are indeed distinctly different persons, the crux of the first SPI. Any other admin can request the same and as long as I can trust that you will not leak the info back to OccultZone, I should be fine sending it to you as well. The 2nd SPI has already been closed, but anyone here, feel free to rerun the CheckUser to verify. In any case, I wish you all the best dealing with OccultZone the next time this timebomb explodes in the future. Zhanzhao (talk) 06:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Reason behind first SPI was to get rid of your disruption, since you shamelessly sock and edit war for your edits. Same with my 2nd SPI, if first SPI was taken seriously none of the 4 editors would've got any malformed blocks that were quickly reversed. We don't need checkuser to confirm that you are socking, nor we need any of your identity proofs. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

We have real evidence here:-

Apart from abusing accounts on 100 percent same namespaces, you have also abused them for bigger purposes. It took a few minutes to confirm that how you and DanS76 are not brothers, but one person.

• "TALK", "possibly vandalism", " already summarized", "Removed POV language", "my defense", "properly attributed", "more accurate to", "Re-added", "overly detailed",, "my 2 cents".
• Same page move war. You were page move warring and edit warring with the former admin and indeffed editor, La goutte de pluie, by using multiple accounts.
• Exactly same votes and choices in AfD,(, , ) deletion review,() ANI,( , ) RFC/UA () accepting own article submission, etc.

This is when you had made slightly more than 150 edits on other account. One wouldn't be convinced even if you claim that you both are conjoined twins, because there's only one sock puppeteer operating these accounts. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 07:16, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Dan already said that he shadows me to see what/how I am editing, which explains a lot of the similarities, and has retired his account to avoid that again. And considering I was the one who introduced him to Misplaced Pages, so its unavoidable that he emulates me, what do you expect me to do, travel back in time and ask not to do so? And he already retired his account (willingly since he's so busy these days), so this issue will not resurface again. And the claim that I did not need him anymore since I had new socks does not hold water since the 2nd SPI's CU already proved that those were not my socks.

Update to Admins. OccultZone just hatted every single rebuttal I just gave to his raised "evidence". Please open it up to read. I know its a lot to digest, but that's what OccultZone threw at my feet so I had to go through all of them.

Zhanzhao (talk) 09:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Problem is that you remember so much of Dan because you operate that account. Examples that I have provided are not all, it is just for confirming that you are a long term sock abuser. You gave same reasons in each of these AfD while no one else had them, with these accounts. You retired that account like it has been pointed here, so that you could use new socks. Exactly that's what you are doing. None of these summaries can be used by two persons that have socked for each other. Why you even have to type out all this garbage if you think that you are not a sock? I have just hatted much of it that you are typing only for killing the environment of this ANI, just like you did on SPI. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 09:59, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Nice. You "hatted" all my explanations just like that. Just like when you took out DoRD's comments at the 2nd SPI that your previous findings were frivolous. I just spent the past few hours looking through YOUR list, and typing that out using all the links YOU gave above, to explain myself. I didn't "need" to be Dan to remember, because its all so obvious by looking at the pages, just by looking at who was posting what according to the signatures to tell there was no interaction, or by counting the votes on the page to tell that the voting was lopsided. But you're discouraging the Admins from looking at it. And yet again, you're shutting people up everytime they say something that would prove you wrong. First DoRD, now me. Good Job. Zhanzhao (talk) 10:23, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Where did you prove anything wrong? These diffs are about you and about your block evading accounts that share similarities, show where they are wrong? You said "you're shutting people up everytime they say something", while Resaltador says that I "seems to attack anyone that disagrees". You have now also capitalized the 'a' of 'admin' just like Resaltador. Looking at some of your self admission, you also seem to be expressing that how much you socked when you were hauling an editor to RFC/UA, ANI. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 12:38, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

If you want to talk about analysing behaviors, try this. Thanks for bringing that link up, because it reminded me that DanS has a particular habit of using "Just Sayin"/"Just Saying". He used it again recently on talk of Rape in India, so thats at least 2 times used on wikipedia. Considering I have so many more posts than his, if we were the same, you should be able to find me using that phrase as well. You wont, because in real life, I keep telling it is a little presumptious and rude. You also keep assuming that Resaltador is a sock of mine, but despite repeated reminder, have you even notified him or any of my other alleged socks about this ANI? Isn't that what you are supposed to do when you file this? Or am I reading the notification at the top of this page wrong, that "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page.". I don't blame that admin, I blame YOU for mishandling this complaint about me. You just keep shutting every avenue of of defense (CU, comments from other admins, real-life identity verification) that could prove my innocence, because you are so fanatically wanting me to be guilty. I'm sick and tired of this. I just emailed you a link to a photo on A website, posted a while ago long before all this started, which has clear inference to my name and is clearly described as a picture of me and my brothers, with no edit history on the picture so it could not have been changed just for this. You can send me a message via facebook to verify that it is me. You forced my hand. I haven't had time to send the ID card scans to Salvidrim! because this has disturbed me so much that it distracted me from work in real life that I need to catch up on my work over the weekend. SATISFIED? If my real identity is revealed or if this is used against me anywhere else, I will now also know who to blame. So. I have a brother in real life who used to edit and retired, there's been people other than me pointing out that the so called "similar" behavior is actually circumstantial, and CheckUser had already exonerated me from all the other socks. Please, I'm begging you, stop directing your anger at me for being blocked, I WASN'T EVEN INVOLVED IN THAT CASE! Zhanzhao (talk) 00:39, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I hadn't notified them about SPI either, they just jumped in the same fashion like DanS76, it also confirms that these socks are either told off-wiki or their operator(you) just know where to abuse them. A dubious photo cannot be used for permitting sock puppetry. Your socking has been damaging for en.wiki, you are socking since 2010 and it must not be ignored. If you were not a sock then why you are bothering to bludgeon ANI, SPI with your garbage? You do because you are a sock. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 01:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Again you describe defense against your accusations as bludgeoning, when all I have done is a point by point rebuttal of your accusations. Its not about the photo, its about me having posted about having brothers, somewhere else long before this. The timing, the subject, and the discussion thread about the picture from long time ago explicitly demonstrates that. People have been jumping into SPI randomly as well all the time. I have randomly participated in SPIs as well. So its supposed to be exclusive? Anything you start, you only allow invited guests to participate? You don't own wikipedia. You cannot NOT allow people to defend themselves. You cannot NOT ignore CU just because it does not justify your accusation. You still have to follow the rules, regardless your assumptions. Like following instructions about ANI notification. Even as you accuse me of breaking the rules, you break them on a whim. And you say I am damaging wikipedia. Zhanzhao (talk) 01:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Have added a lot of newly discovered evidence to this sandbox. We will see. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 16:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Proposing indefinite block for confirmed sock puppetry

DoRD has today  Confirmed that DanS76 (talk · contribs) and Zhanzhao (talk · contribs) are technically related to each other. Though Salvidrim was convinced per Zhanzhao's claim that they are brothers and weren't aware, I always disagreed with that. Now today I have discovered this comment by one of these accounts, where he is warning others of meat puppetry in correct words. It becomes evident that he was aware of every bit of policy re: multiple accounts and he always abused them. Even if his unbelievable notion has to be taken in account, that his brother helped him in wiki matters, he has intentionally violated WP:ILLEGIT for more than 5 years. Despite he was blocked for edit warring and block evasion with IP in 2009, he had admitted to have read WP:SOCK#LEGIT, however he would his then self admitted IP address to vandalize and spam grossly offensive content against opponents. I had to ask for revdel before I even came to show them here.

None of the policies or essays say anything like "Regardless of their previous offenses, if a sock master insists that their sock was used by somebody from their household, they should be vindicated from sock puppetry."

Such exemptions from sock puppetry further encourages a sock master to sock more and use better ways. That happened here and amount of socking is now higher. Today we see throwaway socks acting like experienced user(WP:NOTBORNYESTERDAY), for a name, Bargolus (talk · contribs), having only 2 edits and signed in after 8 years(!) for retrieving the preferred version of Zhanzhao. IP hopping is evidently too frequent. The account himself claimed that he was 49.244.254.146,(he edited the comment of 49.244.. as well), and soon he edited accounts comment with 124.41.243.167. More clear example of IP switching can be seen in this edit war : account, IP, IP.

It further strengthens the ongoing discussion, that many of the editors are currently having at this policy page, that how easy it is for others to defeat CU results. Though one of these throwaway is currently blocked recently by DoRD for editing warring with IP. Must have forgot to switch for an edit.

Thus I am proposing an indefinite block on Zhanzhao and these socks,(DanS76, TCKTKtool, Bargolus, Resaltador) for their long term and ongoing violation of WP:ILLEGIT.

• Support as proposer. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 01:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• support - Continued socking even after the SPI and this ANI is pathetic at best. SamuelDay1 (talk) 03:34, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

@SamuelDay1:, only true if you believe that those other accounts alleged by OccultZone to be my socks, were me. As I pointed out in my page , even after OccultZone admin-shopped with his evidence, he's been told repeatedly that his evidence regarding these other accounts were weak/circumstantial. But I respect your vote. Zhanzhao (talk) 04:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

That was much before your sock evasion on 29 March, and by next days there was least 2 times more evidence concerning your already suspected socks. What happened to your break? That you had taken before you asked for the protection of your preferred version? OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 04:50, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support block for OccultZone if he doesn't agree to drop the fucking stick immediately, as per DoRD, Callanecc and myself agreeing there was nothing actionable sockpuppetry-wise, involving Zhanzhao, DanS76, or the other alleged socks. OccultZone has been warned repeatedly about letting go of this issue and has repeatedly and desperately refused to accept that he is wrong and he's made this his battleground, calling into question the competence of myself and both CUs who assisted with this case. I apologize to the community that we have allowed this to progress thus far and failed to put a definitive stop to it earlier because we believed OccultZone would show enough sense to heed our repeated warnings. This is the exact opposite of constructive behaviour and I am sorry that we allowed OccultZone to waste even more of the community's time. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 05:03, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• It is due to your bad decision that we are having this all trouble. I had asked that which policy allows a sock to exempt from sock puppetry just because if they say that their relative helped them? And you are always speechless. You claim that showing a photo of 2 people standing along gives exemption from sock puppetry, but you don't show even a single policy that allows it. In fact you archived the whole case re: these throwaway socks without even analyzing the behavioral evidence, thus leading people to stop reporting about obvious sock puppets, because in order to protect your decision that you had made first you ignore every instance of sock puppetry without even observing it. Proof is that you have no comments about the sock puppetry from 29 March. Neither you have any comments on Zhanzhao making personal attacks around. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:12, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• My closure of this case with no action has been endorsed explicitely by two CUs and another admin. You're the only one that has shown a complete inability or unwillingness to understand this. You're closing your eyes and putting your hands over your ears yelling "HE'S SOCKING!! HE'S SOCKING!!! OMG BLOCK HIM!!" while the ones actually chosen by the community to decide whether to block or not, and those with specific tools and experience in investigating sockpuppetry claims, have repeatedly told you that you're wrong, to shut up, drop it, and move on. Right now I don't believe anything will change your mind and I'm sorry that you are too stubborn to move on without being physically restrained by a block. Believe me, I really wish you would just move on -- it's a better outcome for you, for me, and for the project. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 05:23, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• I agree this is very much into WP:STICK and WP:IDHT territory and bordering on harassment my hope was that after explaining the reasons why a block isn't necessary OccultZone would move on but that doesn't seem to be the case unfortunately. I made some comments on my talk page in reply to OccultZone regarding the merits of blocking, which was centered around the fact that really the last time there was meatpuppetry between Zhanzhao and DanS76 was in the middle of last means that blocking would no longer be preventative. I'm looking into the latest one on my talk page now. Callanecc (talk • contribs • logs) 05:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• Salvidrim, your closure wasn't archived by an admin. Was it? None of your queries have answered my above questions, lets see what is the outcome, because it is a  Confirmed sock puppetry and on going since 2010. Zhanzhao stopped using that account only when he was caught, not that he came himself for telling you. I am not in violation of any policy, I am just asking for a review of a case that is being ignored and actually suppressed by you from being checked. If you believe that your actions were correct, then you don't have to follow me on other talk pages at all, and you ignore to discuss any of the matter on your own talk page. Now let the community decide. It is a case of 5 years of confirmed sock puppetry that remains on going. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:32, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• ... I only followed your pings. If you adminshop it's on you, not me. I don't need to reply to you on my talkpage when many others have already replied to you on every talk page across the project where you have dragged your Crusade. You asked for a review of the case by two admins, including one CU, who have all repeated what me and DoRD have already told you, and since it didn't suit you, you decided to try ANI -- maybe they'll be stupid enough to believe your falsehoods, right? Right? ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 05:38, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• You talk about falsehood, yet you cannot back up even one accusation with diff or answer the questions. Find me a single message on any other TP re: this case before this message. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 05:43, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support Cannot think that if I am socking and under the fear of an SPI I told an admin that the account belongs to my relatives thus it was correct to sock and the admin wouldn't doubt it rather accept it as fact and allowed by policy. That is not really a single case because abuse is wider than that and wholly obvious per above comments. Hajme 05:17, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
• Defense and Reply to OccultZone I already stopped editing articles. I only give advice to my fellow editors now. But then you started attacking the admins who were only trying to help on the article. From what I read, you've already raised Arbcom/complaints/admin-shopped against them when things didn't go your way, and their only crime was that they chanced on the article to try to diffuse the situation, and acted as what any other reasonable admin would. Especially Bgwhite, whom I feel responsible cos I was the one who asked him to re-protect the article to force a discussion in the talk page, only for you to twist it into yet another part of your conspiracy against me. They all got dragged in because of your assumption that all those other editors you were warring against were me, even though its been pointed out to you that they were not. You don't care what harm your conspiracy theory has caused. Call it a sense of injustice, but the way I see it going, you're just going to use the outcome of this against them. If you are aiming to indef me, this is the last chance I have to set the record straight about their action and yours.

Yes, per the 1st SPI, I am guilty of WP:FAMILY with my brother, I readily admitted it when asked. To prevent any possible reoccurance, my brother already retired his account (he's an irregular anyway). OccultZone's accusation and anger at me stems from the fact that he was blocked for warring for all those other accounts he assumed were me. I understand why he would be angry at me and the blocking admins who were only doing their job. Doesn't make it right. I welcome OccultZone to re-send every single admin that you've shopped to so far with your new evidence. Balance that with a brand new CU on every other accused account raised against me. OccultZone claimed that DanS's account's CU matches mine cos I was unsure of how to circumvent CU. Dan only joined in 2010. OccultZone also said that Bargolus, the focus of his new "evidence", was created much earlier in 2007. So it should be easy to prove any correlation since according to him, I was still a noob at avoiding CU. AND this time, properly notify the other people you are accusing of being my sock. You've harmed enough people as it is. Don't give them a bad surprise when they return. You seem to be a stickler for rules. Follow them. And see what you come back with. And regardless of the result of this, I urge the other admins here to please protect Swarm and Bgwhite from continued harassment from OccultZone. Cos after he's done with me, he's gonna have more time to harass them. Zhanzhao (talk) 06:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

The discussion goes off-topic. The question is whether a CU mishandled a SPI. Since OccultZone stated for DoRD that "don't need double check really because you are a very trusted member" the discussion is over since no one asks for double checking the case. I'll close the discussion in a while. Any evidence for claimed sock-pupperty should go to a new SPI if this is desired. -- Magioladitis (talk) 07:14, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

CANVASS by User:Green_Cardamom

User:Green Cardamom has been convassed here by User:Mhhossein to participate in Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/One Woman's War: Da (Mother). After that, Green Cardamom did a personal attack, he has several edits unrelated to the AfD and makes it digress. But this is not the end of story, recently he made another edit completely irrelevant to the AfD and repeated it in 3 other AfDs: . These edits are another convassing and a kind of disrupting the AfDs. Please tell me if I am wrong. Thanks ●Mehran ● 11:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I never asked User:Green Cardamom to support me at the AFD. In fact it was an appropriate notification. He seemed expert to me in this field and he had participated closely related topics in previous discussions. By the way, Mehran's serial AFD nominations of my articles also seems odd to me. After 50 days of absence in English Misplaced Pages, he began nominating my articles just after I had opposed in one of the discussions in Farsi project (where he is an admin). His Clumsy nominations makes me even more doubtful; One may refer to those AFD pages and follow the discussions to get my point. Mhhossein (talk) 12:26, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@

This is the first time I see this user and I really do not understand what is the relationship between the above link and me. The link is really not my concern, this is another personal attack to me, the user tries to relate all the things together and make them personal. This is my right to nominate every article I feel is not proper for Misplaced Pages, that is why you can see there are lots of discussion about them in the AfDs. Such edits make the users disappointed from editing in Misplaced Pages, I would like to wait for an admin here. ●Mehran ● 12:53, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) The "personal attack" to which the OP refers appears to be an expression of suspicion of off-wiki canvassing, sockpuppetry, or something to that effect. The OP posted several times on the AFD between this supposed "personal attack" (which followed the "canvassing") and opening this thread. Clearly this is just a user who is angry that their AFD isn't going the way they want. I'd say close this thread, and I'd strongly advice User:Mehran to agree with me on this point lest their be a WP:BOOMERANG headed their way. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 12:55, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I also find the "personal attack" not to be one. It appears to be questioning why something appears to be happening and not an attack. I also think a boomerang may be appropriate. AlbinoFerret 14:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

First we are talking about a convassing here and second personal attack. ●Mehran ● 14:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

As far as the canvasing, its a pretty neutral post to an expert on the topic. That they participated in some discussions on the topic also negates the canvasing. Its just one person, if they had notified multiple people and only those that they knew would side with them, that would be canvassing. But in this case it doesnt appear to be the case when the edit is looked at is looked at in view of the specific requirements of canvassing and what is allowed and negates it. AlbinoFerret 15:27, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You can now see the result of this canvassing in the mentioned AfDs, some users came to the AfDs simultaneously and wrote on them. I still wait for an admin here. ●Mehran ● 13:17, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry. Missed that. Cardamon posted the same, perfectly reasonable, critique of your strange practice on all of the relevant forums. "Canvassing" can only have taken place if the person doing the canvassing was anticipating specific support for their position on the AFD. But none of the above diffs show Cardamon !voting in favour of keeping the pages. If you are trying to get Cardamon blocked in order to prevent him/her from revealing you have been hounding another user, then posting on ANI was the worst idea you could have possibly had. If you believe that you have not been the hounder but the houndee, then please specify that. Your canvassing accusation is clearly bogus. The wording of the "canvassing" message was fairly neutral all things considered. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 13:35, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

With all due respect, your statements are not neutral. I posted here to talk with an admin and will explain everything required for him, so please do not digress my edits with your theories. ●Mehran ● 13:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

It's obvious Mhossein has been hounded for a while now for his religious and political beliefs ("degenerate religious thinking"). Now the articles he created are being systematically targeted for deletion. Clearly there is a wider battleground spillover and it's sucking in myself and other editors. I worked with Mhhossein on some of these articles in the past and found him to be courteous and professional. I have never encountered Mehran before this (that I know of). In terms of the canvassing allegations others have addressed that (thank you), but I'd be happy to respond if requested by an admin. -- GreenC 15:31, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Fawiki RfA overspill

This AfD has very obviously become a battleground for a fawiki RfA dispute, on the nomination of Sahehco User:Mehran, and User:Ladsgroup, both of whom support Sahehco's nomination, voted to delete an article by Mhossein who opposed the nomination (Mehran also nominated all other articles Mhossein has created for deletion, and Ladsgroup had voted to delete "per nom" on all of these AfDs). Meanwhile User:Sa.vakilian who opposed the nomination, voted to keep the article created by his fellow opposer. I know this is an extreme accusation to make, but there is no way the votes can line up like this merely from coincidence. Bosstopher (talk) 13:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

This was an Iranian-related AfD and it is not strange to see Fawiki users. Anyway your theory was cool! ●Mehran ● 13:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the compliments on my theory. I dont think this is merely an everday occurrence of fawiki editors commenting on AfDs however. Prior to the Mhosseins AfD's, Ladsgroup had not commented on an AfD since 23rd of August, and Seyyed had not commented on an AfD since 18th July. You yourself, had not edited enwiki since 5 February, before returning to nominate Mhossein's articles for deletion. Regardless of actual motives, this comes across incredibly fishy. Bosstopher (talk) 14:45, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

I don't want to reply you, someone (or more) here disobeyed the policies and I am waiting for an admin to comment. ●Mehran ● 14:52, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)I have not had any contact with @User:Green Cardamom and do not know him. @Bosstopher made an strange claim about my vote. My vote does not relate to Persian wikipedia at all and he should provide evidence for his claim. @Mhhossein is my friend. He found me in English wikipedia about one years ago and asked me to help him learn wikipedia guidelines and policies. In my view he is a professional editor. Finally, I hope @Mehran's serial AfDs does not relate to the matters of Persian wikipedia. I do not endorse his action to follow a user and nominate the articles made by him for deletion, however, I do not want to accuse him. I just vote for one of the AfDs, which is deserved to keep based on wiki policies and guidelines, and I have neutral view in the other cases . --Seyyed(t-c) 15:50, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Several articles of Mhossein were subjects of AfD in fa.wp before Saheco's RfA. All articles of this user regardless of Wiki is highly related to Iranian government propaganda. We also blocked lots of users with similar behavior (fa:ویژه:سیاهه‌ها/block/Ladsgroup) due to WP:SOCK they are blocked also in Wikimedia Commons, it's strange that these users have exact same views and classic tag teaming regardless of Wiki. It's not unreasonable to think of undisclosed paid editing or at least volunteer organized work :)Ladsgroup 18:42, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• (Non-administrator comment) Comment and Disclaimer - For the record, and since I was/am involved in the AFD discussions being considered here, I have absolutely no Conflict of Interest here and do not know any of the other parties involved beyond this current conversation. I see what looks like to me serious systematic AFDs by several accounts targeting one editor's articles. Beyond that my interest is solely in the AFD process and notability, underrepresented voices, and not the content of this particular set of articles. HullIntegrity 19:45, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment)@Ladsgroup: Mhossein's block log in Persian wikipedia and commons are completely clean. Your false reasoning about WP:SOCK mislead the readers. You are an admin and bureaucrat in Persian wikipedia. So, try to provide facts before accusing and blaming the others. Certainly, You had blocked him there, if there had been any proof against him. --Seyyed(t-c) 02:56, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@Sa.vakilian: I never claimed this user is a sockpuppet master. As I said it's a classic tag teaming case and people don't get blocked because of tag and that's why the block log is clean. :)Ladsgroup 04:27, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ladsgroup: Sorry for the delay, Could you please make more explanations on the following points:

• You said that several articles of me had been subjects of AfD in fa.wp before Saheco's RfA. This is while I have created no article in fa.wp. What do you mean? could you please clarify your point and name those mentioned articles?
• Could you please explain what you mean by "classic tag teaming"?
• Is there any reasonable reasons behind your accusations? I would like you to see the pattern of my edits most of which are related to military history Wikiproject. Thanks Mhhossein (talk) 07:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

it's being called tag teaming. :)Ladsgroup 08:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I asked you some other questions, too. Btw, how do you call it tag teaming? Mhhossein (talk) 10:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I am also unclear as to who Ladsgroup is accusing of tag-teaming and on what basis that accusation is being made. Please explain in sufficient detail for others to understand. HullIntegrity 14:41, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

@HullIntegrity: in fa.wp this user and several other ones (who turned out to be socks and I blocked them as it's mentioned in the block log) had similar view points, used these accounts to POV push, have their articles kept (like the one I exampled), and tried to dispute in the RfA. I call this an obvious tag teaming. Lots of them are blocked in English Misplaced Pages, and Wikimedia commons. One example is Template:Did you know nominations/Hassan Tehrani Moghaddam which you can see the creator and nominator is blocked. I can give tons of examples like this in several Wikimedia projects :)Ladsgroup 00:22, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - Interesting. But I am unsure exactly what I am supposed to infer from that link that regards this discussion. HullIntegrity 00:42, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ladsgroup: Comment There are many wikipedians who have the same position on some issues and act similarly. For example, we will encounter the same position by most of the Iranian users who are active in English wikipedia, if there is a discussion about changing the name of Persian Gulf article to Arabian Gulf. Some of them may violate the policies for example by making sockpuppet and some may obey the policies. It is not reasonable to condemn and accuse those who obey the rules for their positions which is similar to those who break the rules. I think you just make a negative speculation without sufficient evidence. --Seyyed(t-c) 01:04, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

@Ladsgroup: you'd better stop this irrelevant issue here and open another topic in this board, if you are enthusiastic to follow it. Btw, what do you mean? should I not participate such discussions? More responses will be presented by admin request. Mhhossein (talk) 07:58, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

At first it was "accusation" and now it's "irrelevant issue". I think we are making progress. User:Bosstopher made this issues related (btw I didn't vote in the RfA) and I wanted to say this battleground is far older than what this user thought. I don't mind creating another topic for this but I'm busy enough already and don't have time to argue. I said this for the record and admins here should be aware of the matter :)Ladsgroup 11:50, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Sorry I seem to have jumped the gun with the accusations, I especially regret my use of the word "obviously." I am very very bad at reading farsi (why dont they just write in the vowels!!!). However it does seem, (even if it has nothing to do with the RfA) that this dispute is part of something bigger and has a fawiki context. Still probably wasnt good to charge into a situation I dont understand and start accusing people of stuff, so apologies to User:Mehran, User:Ladsgroup and User:Sa.vakilian.Bosstopher (talk) 12:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

A note to any admin who is reluctant to comment here because they dont know any farsi

You're not the only one. None of the other admins know any farsi either, so you shouldnt let it put you off commenting. I've looked through WP:BABEL, and I cant find anyone who is both an admin, and is tagged as knowing any farsi (maybe I just suck at searching through categories though). One of you is probably going to have to comment evenutally (although I guess maybe not necessarily), so it may as well be you. Bosstopher (talk) 12:16, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment (Non-administrator comment) - If I understand correctly, being able to read Farsi should be irrelevant to this discussion since this is the English Misplaced Pages. What matters is behavior here in the English Misplaced Pages in English. HullIntegrity 12:37, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Issue with User:Verdy P

verdy p (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

Please review the user Verdy P and the way he responds to users on wikipedia, as can be seen on his Talk page. I originally inquired why a page title was changed, in addition to some of its content. He did provide a valid reason for the former, but had no valid points for why he changed the content and made it more incorrect. I tried to explain this to him, but he instead chose to insist that he is correct, despite being proven wrong with facts, and continued to respond with arrogance, and then rudeness. As you can see in his latest reply on the issue, he proceeds to use inflammatory words and declares that he will delete any further replies from me, which he did.

I don't think this is the attitude that regular wikipedia editors should be displaying; it also should not be tolerated because he can easily just continue with these questionable edits and dismiss everyone who tries to correct him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

@70.51.38.110: You must notify users when you start a discussion about them on this noticeboard. I have taken care of that for you. Ivanvector (talk) 15:39, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. His response was heavy handed and haughty KoshVorlon R.I.P Leonard Nimoy "Live Long and Prosper" 16:03, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

Please clarify—which response was heavy handed and haughty? Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I've said repeatedly to him that I had already replied to the answer, but he insists in discussing about things I'm not interested. I have said him to stop this discussion and discuss it somewhere else.

He continues... I've just stoped this discussion going nowhere, my talk page is not the appropriate place for that. What can I do? verdy_p (talk) 18:04, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

You are not interested in the subject, and yet you keep insisting that whatever information you put into the article is valid, even with lack of proof?70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:41, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• I saw some of the discussion (User talk:Verdy p has been on my watchlist since April 2013 when Verdy p provided some very helpful advice). The IP is completely misguided—we are volunteers and expecting people to argue indefinitely on their user talk page is very unreasonable. Verdy gave several detailed explanations (the section is now 1950 words), and the fact the IP does not like the replies does not entitle them to waste even more volunteer time at ANI. In general, if an editor thinks a page title is not correct and they not sure how to discuss that, they should ask at WP:HELPDESK. Harassing someone on their talk page is not helpful. Johnuniq (talk) 00:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Because you are volunteers, it gives you the permission to respond to people with arrogance and call them names? Because that is what he had been doing in all of his replies. It seems to me that you did not read the entire discussion, nor did you try to understand the details of why the discussion had been prolonged. Verdy had made some changes to the content of an article, which were incorrect changes. Despite my many attempts to explain to him why those changes are incorrect, using facts and clear evidence, he continued to insist that I am the one who is wrong (again, with invalid arguments); so you are saying that I should simply agree to whatever he says, even when he's wrong. Sorry, but being a volunteer does not entitle you to treat others with a lack of respect; it does not make your words and assumptions the absolute truth and it certainly does not label others who try to fix your errors as harassers. Also, the argument would not have extended "indefinitely" had Verdy at least tried to carefully read my replies and humbly accept that he was mistaken; not wanting to admit his mistake was a bigger priority to him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 01:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Nothing the IP has done is harassment. You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend). Furthermore, in addition to the harassment claim, you told the IP that he was "wasting time here at ANI." You seem to have exactly the same civility and superiority complex-toward IPs issues Verdy has. I hope that's only because you're heated about your friend being brought up here at ANI. --DawnDusk (talk) 03:28, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Repeatedly posting to a user's talk page is a minor form of harassment. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

No it is not a form of harassment when those repeated posts are replies to the user. If I had been posting a bunch of additions without any replies and simply filling up the talk page with provoking messages, then yes, that would be harassment. Don't tell me that users aren't allowed to post replies in an attempt to correct someone, claiming that such would be a form of harassment. If it's in the clause for you volunteers to have the right to be stubborn and unwilling to accept when you're wrong, then I'm sorry for the "harassment".70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The moment I saw Verdy's message that included "IP accounts like yours have very low trust among Misplaced Pages users, they are frequently reverted," it became clear to me that we have a WP:CIVILITY issue as well as a lack of understanding of WP:IPs are human too. Verdy has certainly tipped his hand about his bad faith towards the IP that makes anyone trying to argue that he isn't being a WP:JERK and needs to take a step back here simply wrong. If the IP can produce his sources that show 1. The North American release is the only official one. and 2. It's referred to as "C: The Contra Adventure" by the game's own manual, then he's entirely in the right. However, even if he is wrong, Verdy has handled this quite poorly. Side note: other damning comments include " like you stupidely continue to do here" and "if you want trust you DO need a personal account". --DawnDusk (talk) 03:25, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I was going to provide sources, but you're right, his talk page isn't the place to list them. I have plenty of sources that confirm what I posted; but even if I did try to provide them at the right page, as Verdy stated, he doesn't care about the game. That, I find rather contradictory for someone who claims they are correct on a matter that pertains to the game itself.70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Your reading is incorrect, and Verdy is a helpful editor, not my "friend". The advice given to the IP is completely correct—anyone caring about their privacy would make an account (see MediaWiki:Anoneditwarning which is displayed to the IP every time they click edit—Verdy's advice is merely echoing that official statement, with the extra and correct observation about reactions from many editors—whether those reactions are justified or not). Please don't conflate direct language with civility. The issue of the article title is not a matter to be settled on Verdy's talk page, as Verdy explained to the IP; also see my above reference to WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 06:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but correcting him when he's wrong is a matter to be settled because otherwise, that kind of attitude will follow him with further edits he makes on Misplaced Pages. Please don't tell me that you would condone such conduct. That has been the biggest issue with him.70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

On my talk page I have all the rights to give a personal opinion even if you think it is wrong, you cannot insist on changing it. My talk page is not a WP project.

As I said, I gave my opinion, you gave yours. All stops there when I've said I don't want to invest more time in additional topics that were not even the reason of his initial question.

Everyone has the right to have an opinion and give it on his personal page. It is not needed to force people to change their mind: this is abusive against my own freedom.

When we talk on WP, it is only to try convincing others people to join some **common** project, or agree together with some changes to do in an article or community project or when there are some concerted decisions to take by reaching some form of consensus (but there's nothing to do on my talk page where no public consensus is reachable).

How would have you reacted if I had asked you a question about Lie's algebra (or some other topic you're not interested in) and each time you gave some reply or opinion, I insisted multiple times during several days trying to convince you it was really important?

How do you react when you see your mailbox filled with notifications or ads for products you've never bought and don't want to buy but the notifier still repeats its alerts several times a day? You just put the mails to garbage. Yes this is named "harassment" if, after instructed the notifier to stop sending his post on the same topic continues (and in the email world, this is generally considered as "spam". verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You have every right to express your opinion on your Talk page. What is not permitted, I hope, is putting your opinion into the article and then insisting that you are correct about it, which is exactly what you did. You do have the freedom to believe what you want; but when you choose to ignore plain facts and stick with your own opinion on something when it is evidently false, you are simply deluded. You can have an opinion on things such as preference or taste; don't tell me that facts are opinion-based, tailored to each individual. Otherwise, this entire site would be useless.

As for how I would have reacted about the Lie's Algebra topic: unlike you, I would at least admit that I know little about the subject and therefore I am likely wrong about it. What did you do? You added false information about a subject for which you admittedly know little and have little interest about. Then, you continue to insist you are correct, as if you know the facts; again, for a subject for which you admittedly know little about and care little about.

Also, don't compare apples to oranges. You're talking about soliciting advertisements and SPAM mail that are sent to individuals unprovoked. They are sent in mass quantities regardless of your actions and/or interactions with them. What I did was address why you put incorrect information into the article's content (again, as I already said, I understood why the article title had to be changed). Instead of agreeing you made a mistake, you insisted that your edits to the article were not wrong. Then you instructed me to stop responding to you and be ok with you continuing to make similar edits to other articles with opinion-based information.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

• I agree; you're right that this conversation absolutely should not have taken place on Verdy's talkpage. That is the fault of the IP, who wouldn't know better. That being said, Verdy still handled it awfully. His first response, rather than telling the IP to go to the right page, was to engage him with a lengthy reply (which already showed him getting heated in the last sentence and didn't mention the correct venue to use). Did you honestly expect the IP not to think to reply there? It wasn't until Verdy's very last reply, where he also said he would delete any new comment the IP posted (which is totally his right to do per user talkpage policy) that he directed him to the right page. By this time, Verdy had already been extremely rude and, as others have said, heavy-handed and haughty. And no, I honestly wouldn't say I'm "conflating direct language with civility". Check out the Avoiding Incivility section of WP:CIVILITY. He was intense, unprofessional, name-called, and became condescending - those are right there in that section. Furthermore, it doesn't matter that his "advice" about creating an account was correct. It had absolutely no place in the discussion, it wasn't brought up by the IP at all, and Verdy was clearly using the fact that he was an IP to condescend to him. Second, no, it isn't true that IPs aren't to be trusted, should be discredited in discourse, or "need" accounts. Like I said, I'm quite the fan of WP:IPs are human too as well as the plenty of other WP policies about it. The bottom line is that Verdy were going to respond in the uncivil manner that he did (as well as bringing up the user's IP status as a jerky point out of nowhere multiple times), he shouldn't have engaged the IP at all. The best thing he could have done was direct him to the article's talk page right away. You're making it sound like he did and, as you said, "explained it to the IP." He didn't (until the very end, as I said). --DawnDusk (talk) 07:10, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Sad to say, I might not have been able to master the patience for so much tedious explanation as Verdy p did when the IP wouldn't take no for an answer. The only problem wrt courtesy on Verdy's page that I can see is that they were a bit short with BracketBot. (That's supposed to be a joke.) IP, I'm afraid you expect too much time expenditure of our volunteers. @ DawnDusk: Golly, I recommend the parable of The Mote and the Beam to you, with your attack Johnuniq's integrity here. "You've unfortunately shown a lack of neutrality here (which is understandable, given that it's your friend)", "given that he's your friend". Twice, you say it, and it's made up out of whole cloth. You're a fine one to talk about assuming bad faith. Am I to assume the IP is your friend? (To be clear, I don't suppose so for a moment.) Don't make such charges lightly, please. Bishonen | talk 10:04, 28 March 2015 (UTC).

Yes, Verdy is not at all out of line for his inflammatory responses. Instead, it is the fault of the IP user (me) for even having a problem with that. Because Verdy is a volunteer, right?70.51.38.110 (talk) 14:40, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• You're right. That was a mistake on my part and an indicator of my bad judgment. With that - I've said my piece. I will depart from this thread. I apologize to User:Johnuniq sincerely. DawnDusk (talk) 10:19, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Even if I was cited many times above, I do not understand the general spirit in most of what is written above, with many people making personal judgements without even knowing me or asking me.

The fact is that I tried to help for several days the same 70.51.38.110 IP editor, I tried to explain various things, but as he had already agreed why his initial question was fully answered (why the page was renamed), he continued to post messages for several days speaking about things unrelated to his initial question, trying to convince me about somthing I'm not interested in.

I was finally upset because I had instructed him not to continue his discussion in my talk page. I gave my opinion, he gave his own but this does not matter, I don't want to continue on this game topic (I was only concerned on why the page was renamed many months ago when I was interested in having the "C:" interwiki prefix being allocated to Commons).

Several times also I instructed him to sign his posted messages, and he didn't (but he criticized me immediately when trying to answer the first time to the many topics he started initially (he did not undestand why I splitted his message in several parts, when commenting them separately (in indended paragraphs all signed separately and not mixed at all with his own words). I just wanted to act fast, my talk page is not a wikipedia article and I don't want to take too much time.

Yes finally I was a bit rude but only in one word (after repeated attempts to have him stop his discussion).

For the rest I was helpful and very patient for several days. I had stopped the discussion on my talk page (this is my right jsut like everyone else in Wikimedia that no longer wants to discuss or being notified multiple times each day about topics they are not interested in), but as he refused that, I had to be more expeditive (I don't think it was "inflammatory" given the time I had already given for several days for a topic I was not interested in). I could have not replied anything and would not have given any help to him, but he still does not want to recognize that I was helpful and does not consider the time I already gave to him only.

But I don't know which WP policy I would have violated that merits a notification or action from administrators here, just for my own talk page (which was not the appropriate place to talk about the article) after all the time I gave voluntarily. Please 70.51.38.110, next time use the article talk page, or use the standard forums. I have been helpful enough about most of your questions but if you disagree the WP forums are there to discuss them: there are plenty of WP projects you can join (but I do not participate to the WP games portals or projects).

And was it really "haughty" to explain him that IP users are frequently not given any trust in many pages for their edits? Was is haughty to suggest him to create a regular account (and explaining him why it would be a protection for him)?

And sorry but I don't understand the qualifier "handed" that was given about me above. Remember that English is not my native tongue. I did not find any appropriate definition with a context that could explain it, so I think the word was badly chosen or very informal. There has been other personal comments above that I do not consider being in line with WP policies, from people with whom I had not discussed before (in a time I can remember): how do you think they can make such personal judgements? All comments about my supposed "friendship" with people I don't know or that I have not discussed before are out of topic.

Thanks. verdy_p (talk) 06:56, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Please ignore ANI—if an editor with more than a month's experience posts something needing your response I will let you know on your talk. I hang out here and so am familiar with the fact that anyone can edit also means anything can be asserted at ANI. Trying to refute every mistaken claim is pointless—the best response here is silence to let the thread fade away. The IP will never be satisfied, and the simplest is to just revert any further comments they make on your talk—do not put any explanation in your edit summary, just remove comments with summary "remove"; the reason for that is to not give the IP something to argue about (if you put an explanation in your comment, they might think it is reasonable that they should reply). If the IP persists, I will find someone to fix the problem. The IP should take the advice given and pursue the question of the article title at the article talk page or WP:HELPDESK. Johnuniq (talk) 11:38, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

And yet again, you completely ignore the issue at hand and assume the favor is on the side of Verdy_P, Johnuniq. I repeat yet again, the issue is not with the article title, but with how Verdy refuses to accept evidence for why he is incorrect and how he responds so condescendingly. As for me never being satisfied? All Verdy had to do was swallow his pride and simply accept that he did not know all of the facts on the article at hand. One little thing seems to be asking too much from him, according to you; again, probably because both of you are volunteers on this site and you guys must look out for each other, no matter your position.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Note: By interleaving replies in User:Verdy p's post,, as well as top-posting above Johnuniq, 70.51.38.110 has made Verdy's coherent post incomprehensible; you can't tell which bits are whose. This may work in e-mail, but is strongly deprecated on talkpages. In justice to Verdy, I've removed the IP's responses from inside Verdy's and paste them here below, moving up Johnuniq's much earlier response. I'm sorry if it's not clear which bit exactly the IP is responding to, but it was the best I could do. If you can improve on my arrangement, 70.51.38.110, with due consideration for others, then please do. Bishonen | talk 14:35, 30 March 2015 (UTC).

Enough with claiming that you were being helpful by saying that your information is not incorrect just because you say so, even despite evidence otherwise. I don't remotely perceive how you think that is being helpful.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You were not helping me "for several days" by insisting that your edits were correct. Even in the face of evidence, you decided that you were still correct; which I find funny because you keep repeating that you're not interested in the subject.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

In addition to changing the page title (which I accepted was justified), you changed content in the article itself, which was based on your incorrect opinion. That, I also had a problem with (which I explicitly stated); you instead kept insisting that your information is valid. You even added a false, shallow citation note to the claim you put into the article.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but what has been haughty from you is how authoritatively you insist that I am wrong, even when what you provide as arguments is so thin.70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

You instructed me several times? There's another lie from Verdy_P. He asked me once, and I signed my edits promptly since that one. 70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

No, but using words like "stupidely" is not informal at all, right? It is not making a judgement on someone who's trying to explain something to you about a subject you admit you don't care about. Does being a "volunteer" automatically make your word and your wikipedia edits superior to all non-volunteers', regardless of their validity?70.51.38.110 (talk) 15:39, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

For the record, I've placed the evidence on the talk page of The Contra Adventure. It's there in plain sight. Also, don't mind my irate wording; since Verdy is not at all at fault for replying with such crass, I figure I would be allowed. Unless, of course, that's one of the special privileges of you volunteers. http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:The_Contra_Adventure 70.51.38.110 (talk) 17:29, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I said I wouldn't post anymore, and although it was wrong of me to charge John with bias due to friendship, he IS being incredibly short-sighted (completely ignored the evidence that I laid, in addition to the IP's own, and instead is just dismissing this with handwaves because he disagrees). DawnDusk (talk) 04:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

What you are missing is that Verdy provided a polite and detailed response including some important technical information. Please stop and examine the following line, then click the link.

] → C: The Contra Adventure (check the URL where this goes)

Verdy could have ignored the IP's question, but instead explained that the issue was discussed a long time ago, and that "C:" cannot now be used. Johnuniq (talk) 04:35, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And once again, YOU decide to ignore the point of this issue and continue to assume it pertains to the page's title; a subject which, you're right, has been discussed a long time ago and that I had already come to agree with. Here I am repeating the issue at hand for the umpteenth time (probably due to you either deliberately ignoring my replies in favor of a fellow "volunteer" that you admittedly follow in his work, thus making your own look very biased, ignorant and unintelligent; or because this is your level of reading comprehension); the issue pertains to Verdy's arrogance and stubborn, counter-productive attitude towards his page content changes. I wrote that besides the page title, he also changed content in the article and made it seem like what he wrote were facts. The latter is what I had a problem with and instead of accepting his mistake, he continued to insist that I'm the one who's wrong. Me trying to explain this to him constitutes stupidity in his book and a waste of his time. He must really feel above others when he can't even accept his own mistakes.70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:18, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Also, don't tell me that Verdy was being polite when he said things like "You should care about it.", "And I absolutely do not care at all about your preception of "quality" when you don't care about Misplaced Pages usages and don't want to learn.", "and other people on Misplaced Pages have not disputed the fact like you "stupidely" continue to do here". I didn't realize that being demanding, arrogant, condescending and vulgar fit the criteria of being polite; it must be a new policy for volunteers.

Misplaced Pages isn't a resource of information to which ALL readers are strictly obligated to edit or contribute, let alone create accounts for. I'm not (or at least was not) the only one who falls into the category of readers as far as Misplaced Pages goes. As such, we are not really familiar with editing regulations that Verdy values and stresses so much over content accuracy/validity. You may not believe it, but it actually damages Misplaced Pages's credibility when it becomes riddled with inaccurate information, the likes of what Verdy has added into the game's article.

I think it's phenomenal when many of you volunteers spend more time and effort in getting each other's back than understanding the issue at hand. Cringe-worthy to think that Misplaced Pages is maintained by people like this, but not at all surprising with respect to a significant public perception of it.70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)70.51.38.110 (talk) 20:22, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

David Tornheim's behavior, redux

David Tornheim (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

David Tornheim, just over a week ago, was warned to stop campaigning just a bit over a week ago, with Drmies writing a close that "There is also some agreement that Tornheim seems to regard Misplaced Pages as a battleground where there's always a pro and a con side, and partisanship rules.".

Since then David has continued campaigning, even in this thread:

• here
• here
• here (a beauty)
• and here (a real beauty)

Since he has completely blown off the warning, please provide a 24 hour block, per WP:BLOCKDETERRENT. David is making it more and more clear that he is WP:NOTHERE so I will not oppose an indef, but all I am asking for is a 24 hour block. Thanks.

I am sorry to keep cluttering up this board, but these personal attacks of corruption and COI are not OK. Jytdog (talk) 23:13, 27 March 2015 (UTC) (note, fixed dif per note below. Jytdog (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC))

• Witness Intimidation for testimony on this ANI. This accusation against me shows just how impossible it is to speak about a problem. David Tornheim (talk) 05:09, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

This is what we mean with WP:CIR. just bizarre. Jytdog (talk) 05:48, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The "don't be a dick/gravedancing" diff you linked as evidence against David Thorheim isn't from David Thorheim, it is from DePiep --BoboMeowCat (talk) 23:25, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

thanks, i fixed it. sorry. god i sick of this drama. i have articles i want to work on. Jytdog (talk) 23:28, 27 March 2015 (UTC) (note - made this a separate new incident. Jytdog (talk) 23:41, 27 March 2015 (UTC))

• I moved this section back here, because it's part of the same incident; whoever looks at it has to see it in context. Sarah (SV) 23:58, 27 March 2015 (UTC)

• Noting that when I wrote "here," I was referring to the section above that this report is part of. Jytdog has moved it again. Sarah (SV) 00:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

David's behavior has nothing to do with DePiep's. David is responsible for what he does. This belongs in its own section, and so i moved it back. too much drama. Jytdog (talk) 00:33, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Jytdog, I'm surprised to see you seek sanctions for posts like this, given your interactions recently with DrChrissy. You were cursing at her with practically every post at one point, but no one reported you (and I'm glad they didn't, because it meant that it eventually stopped without fuss). Shouldn't you extend a similar attitude to others? Sarah (SV) 00:02, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

drchrissy is a guy, for what its worth. you really cannot sort out a personal attack from someone fucking cursing in frustration? And in any case, if you want to bring a case against me for that, please do so. This thread is about David's behavior. Jytdog (talk) 00:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Still, even to a casual observer, you bring an awful lot of cases to WP:ANI. You seem to be involved in a lot of confrontational encounters. Again, just an observation. And you failed to notify the editor about bringing this case to ANI. Liz 00:36, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Liz this has been a really crappy couple of weeks, i grant you that. i work on controversial subject matter and in general manage to keep things calm enough that we don't end up here; david's campaigning has been stirring the pot for sure. Depiep's thing was random. and i apologize for not giving notice to David. doing that now. thanks for the reminder. Jytdog (talk) 01:38, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I think its been more than a crappy week. You have 563 edits to this page, in only two article do you have more. That is an amazing number for someone who has a bad week. AlbinoFerret 12:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• Note: this thread is about David Tornheim's behavior. It is what it is. Each editor in Misplaced Pages is responsible for his or her behavior. Period. David is hounding me with personal attacks across WP; this is a violation of WP:CAMPAIGNING. He has been warned, and persisted. Please give him a block per WP:BLOCKDETERRENT. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 00:15, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

At WP:RSN David Tornheim has:

• cited a Reiki site to make an Argumentum ad populum that Reiki isn't WP:FRINGE medicine
• argued that Reiki shouldn't be compared to "Western" Medicine (because it'd fail that comparison horribly) and so somehow shouldn't be treated as a fringe topic
• made a slippery slope argument that dismissing Reiki as pseudoscience would lead to dismissing Eastern culture as fringe (non sequitur)
• admitting that Reiki is not scientific while still arguing that it should not be treated as WP:FRINGE because it supposedly doesn't make scientifically testable claims (despite previously citing an article titled "The Greatest Healing The World Has Ever Known")
• arguing against the idea that Reiki claims to basically be the force (able to heal at a distance), even though the article he cited says "Reiki can be sent at a distance."
• arguing that Reiki should be defined by its advocates, instead of by skeptical sources (in the absence of WP:MEDRSs supporting it)
• asked for a pro-Reiki citation for Reiki's founder referring to it as medicine, only to try to dismiss the argument with a strawman when his challenge was met.

For those not in the know, Reiki is a form of "Energy medicine" where the "healer" can "cure" Peptic ulcers, Anemia, Nephritis, Measles, and Ty-fucking-phoid through energies that science says do not exist, across time and space. No WP:MEDRSs were ever presented in support of Reiki, despite repeated requests for them. To argue in defense of Reiki the way Tornheim has requires at least one of the following: gross incompetence, a personal crusade on behalf of WP:Lunatic charlatans, or Reiki-based profits. Given his other behavior, I think that a topic-ban may be in order, probably against all topics relating to health sciences (which would definitely cover GMOs, Glyphosate, Reiki, and Genetic engineering). Ian.thomson (talk) 00:18, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

^I will address misrepresentations made above. Please give me time to respond. I am not an advocate for Reiki. And I am definitely no advocate (and have little respect) for "quack" or "snake oil" medicine that deceives patients with false promises or pseudo-scientific claims. My discussion at the RS forum about Reiki had to do with appropriate use of RS, which was being misapplied and against policy and included the use of circular, contradictory logic. Please note that I have never edited the Reiki article or talk page. Nor have I edited any article or talk page related to Alternative Medicine or mainstream Western Medicine as far as I can remember. I don't think GMO food is medicine, is it? David Tornheim (talk) 01:14, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You kept citing a Reiki website in place of a WP:MEDRS, and made arguments that went against the source you cited and arguments that demonstrated you had not read anything about Reiki (except pro-Reiki sources), to try and keep Reiki (which is basically healing by praying to the Force) away from WP:FRINGE and open the door to presenting it as a legitimate "healing" distinct from "western" medicine. If WP:COI is not at play here, then WP:CIR or WP:RGW definitely is. The topic ban is necessary because either you like to argue in defense of quackery out of either gullible ignorance or actual belief. Ian.thomson (talk) 01:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Ian.thomson says "Reiki (which is basically healing by praying to the Force)". This is incorrect. I have read numerous sources on Reiki and NONE of them (including the current wiki article Reiki)), even the skeptics, say that it relies primarily on praying--all of them say Reiki is about touch and many say it is more like massage. (Yes, it does use Qi). Ian.thomson is clearly confused about Reiki, and now is trying to ban me for pointing out his/her confusions like these about Reiki.

I do regret I tried to help the people at that forum understand the major differences between Eastern Practices viz-a-viz Western Medicine which are entirely different systems. Obviously, a waste of time. I should have focused only on the RS issue. Although that seems like a waste of time too which is why I have not said anything on that forum for a few days. David Tornheim (talk) 10:59, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Anyone with a passing acquaintance with reiki will know practitioners claim it can be used at distance (in that respect it is like prayer or Christian Science healing). Alexbrn 11:06, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You didn't object to the Star Wars reference? The indication that I was clearly making a joking comparison? Please read the article on metaphors. If you've read plenty of sources on Reiki, and you're capable of tutoring students on physics, then you should have known better it was essentially magical in nature. It isn't an east vs west thing, it is a science vs pseudoscience thing. Reiki makes scientifically testable claims, but provides no evidence. As I said at RSN, its western parallel is not "western" medicine, Reiki's western twin would be something like Radionics or crystal healing.

I I totally get and appreciate respect for other cultures, but that respect does not require gullibility. If someone makes a scientifically testable claim, we demand evidence in proportion to those claims]. If they do not present it, we treat their claims as WP:FRINGE. It's that simple.

And how have you read numerous sources on Reiki, but somehow supposedly don't have an opinion on it one way or another? Either you're a stealth advocate, or you're in denial about it. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• couple of links to comments from david with comments in reply from some admins:
  • dif (see especially comments at the end of that thread)
  • dif

Per those comments there, WP:CIR is at play here. Jytdog (talk) 01:35, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

^Now he is going here saying I am "incompetent". The criticism from Jytdog just never ends! David Tornheim (talk) 02:52, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

yep, and you are proving the case with almost every post you make here. See WP:HOLE Jytdog (talk) 05:50, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Comment - to Ian.thomson - calling for a topic ban based on subject-related comments on the RSN is bizarre, particularly given that David states he never edited the Reiki article. While the Reiki article should certainly avoid overweighing fringe viewpoints, the notion of undue weight does not apply to talk page and discussion board comments, and these are reasonable places to bring up non-mainstream viewpoints and discuss how they relate to wikipedia.Dialectric (talk) 02:34, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Where did I attempt to apply WP:UNDUE to RSN? On undue weight, however, Tornheim's actions at RSN would have had the effect of allowing undue weight on fringe viewpoints in the article. "These sources are reliable information on Reiki from the perspective of the practitioner" would have been a fine argument and relevant to the discussion -- but his actions there specifically pushed the idea that Reiki should not be treated as a fringe pseudoscience because pro-Reiki authors do not characterize it that way. By that standard, there is no such thing as pseudoscience.

His other actions have resulted in arguments at GMOs, Glyphosate, and Genetic engineering, and Jytdog has come to ANI and other places because of Tornheim's actions there. Those other actions, in the light of his behavior at RSN, demonstrates serious problems with either WP:CIR or WP:ADVOCACY (via mostly WP:Civil POV pushing) when it comes to health sciences. Ian.thomson (talk) 02:55, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You raised WP:FRINGE in your initial comment, which is closely related to WP:UNDUE. Showing interest in a fringe or minority viewpoint is not in itself a bannable offense. Do you have diffs showing clear disruptive behavior?Dialectric (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

At what point did I say that he should be banned for simply showing interest? Having overhauled the Lesser Key of Solomon, I have to say there's nothing wrong with interest. What I have already linked to shows a POV-problem.

As for Tornheim's behavior, see the previous ANI thread, which was closed with the comment "There is a measure of agreement that David Tornheim's editing is problematic; individual edits (such as this one, cited by a number of editors) are incredibly problematic and the removal of them is warranted by all kinds of policies." Tornheim edit warred to keep that edit in, and has previously canvassed to change articles relating to GMOs to suit his POV. He also encouraged others to edit war to support his POV.

Has Jytdog been perfect in his interactions? No, but even in isolation, Tornheim and science do not mix. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

I would really appreciate your striking out the ad hominem that questions my competence in Science. I happen to have a Bachelors in Electrical Engineering (from University of Cincinnati) Magna Cum Lum Laude, where I excelled in numerous college level science classes, and a Masters of Electrical Engineering from the University of Southern California, Los Angeles (U.S.C.) and was top in my high school class in math and science. I also have tutored students in math, including advanced Calculus and Statistics, as well as Physics. So I would really appreciate your striking out the ad hominem allegations that I do not know much about Science. -David Tornheim (talk) 09:37, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

That's nice. Then you should have known better to try and give equal validity to Reiki. But wait, you've also read numerous sources on it, and all of them pro-Reiki. You may be in denial about it, and pretend that you just don't know, but your behavior screams that you believe in it and advocate it's use to others. Believe what you want, but it's unacceptable to try to reshape Misplaced Pages to fit those beliefs when they conflict with science. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:24, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The two problematic edits you spoke of were already raised in the closed AN/I. Why are you raising them again? Is there no Double Jeopardy on Misplaced Pages? As for the edit in question (dated 18:40, 2 March 2015) mentioned in the closing comments, that issue was resolved less than two hours later here (dated 20:32, 2 March 2015) and again here (dated 21:35, 2 March 2015). I relinquished all interest in the material, as soon as those who had done the reverts (mostly Jytdog) explained on the talk page here (dated 19:52, 2 March 2015) (rather than in vague edit summary here) why he believed a normally reliable source like the BBC had made a very serious mistake in its reporting. His explanation on the talk page made sense, I accepted it without further comment--so I thought--that would be the end of it. But it seems never to go away. I saw I made a mistake and never showed the least interest in adding the problematic material again. Yet this edit which I have long divorced myself from apparently I am still married to? Where do I get a Wiki divorce? Admitting you made a mistake by sleeping with the wrong "edit" more than once, apparently is just not enough.

And all of this was before the first AN/I Jytdog used against me (01:35, 8 March 2015 (UTC)). I admitted in the AN/I that I misunderstood the WP:BRD rule:

I have done some more research and learned some more things. I carefully read the WP:BRD, and see that I misunderstood it and that Kingofaces43 (talk) interpretation is more correct than mine, that it is indeed okay to revert without going to the talk page. 10:47, 12 March 2015 (UTC) here

And I have made hardly any edits to the GMO articles since Jytdog's first ANI against me, knowing that doing so, no matter how reasonable, will land me here. But I guess you still need me banned from the GMO articles even though I have made no more controversial edits you can point to? -David Tornheim (talk) 10:08, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

The double jeopardy comparison, and the prior mention of witness intimidation is Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering. The Reiki advocacy was mentioned, and evidence of prior problematic behavior was asked for, which is why that thread was mentioned. This isn't simply bringing up that thread again without new points. Even if you have changed how you're peddling an anti-scientific POV onto articles into a more indirect fashion, you're still peddling a POV that gives equal validity to pseudoscience. Ian.thomson (talk) 16:29, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Ian.thomson: So are you really saying that if I raise an issue and someone disagrees, then I "caused an argument" and that is a good reason to have me banned from the article or topics related to that topic? Are you saying that dissenting opinions are impermissible because they cause arguments? It is hard for me to imagine Misplaced Pages where everyone agreed all the time. Are you still saying that you want me banned from GMO and the Glyphosphate articles because they are primarily articles having to do with medicine and medical advice? David Tornheim (talk) 04:22, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

You're twisting my words, as you did at RSN. Like I said, it would have been one thing to support the use of those sources for the perspective of a Reiki practitioner, but you repeatedly argued for not classifying Reiki as a fringe pseudoscience because that's not how its practitioners classify it. Your edits to Glyphosate and on articles relating to GMOs concern their effects on human health, and therefore fall under health science. Ian.thomson (talk) 04:58, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

• The topic ban discussion is closed for now, so unless someone wants to direct where this conversation is going relevant to ANI, it might be best to close this. I will chime in though that I am concerned about David's behavior continuing after being specifically being warned in the previous ANI for treating Misplaced Pages as a battleground. A recent post indicates they are convinced editors have a COI without any evidence to back that up: "I have been looking for cases of , but can't find them, but they exist." That post seems telling they are WP:NOTHERE entirely and plan to continue further drama, but it might be best to take a WP:ROPE approach with their warning at this point. If outside editors want to comment, that would be welcome. Otherwise, I'd suggest letting this post go. Kingofaces43 (talk) 05:46, 29 March 2015 (UTC)

I was looking for the cases I was already aware of where the named users were punished for alleging COI without providing evidence. I wanted DePiep--who appeared to lack adequate Wiki-legal counsel--to know the case law and the plaintiffs, so he understood he would be next, which he was. I believe the cases happened in 2013 or 2014. Unfortunately, I did not know how to efficiently look up Plaintiffs and Defendants in past closed Wiki-legal cases. Searching the archives for those users brings up not just every case they were Plaintiff or Defendant, but also every case they commented on--which for one or both of them exceeded 100. If you can think of a good way to search the database to quickly find a particular case you know of, please let me know how that is done. It is much much easier to do at a typical county or federal court house for real world legal cases.

I explained this all to Bishonen here. David Tornheim (talk) 13:24, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kingofaces43: Now that we have cleared up that I was not "looking for cases of COI", let me ask you a question. In the WifiOne case, the lead Plaintiff said on Jimbo's Talk page:

Three years ago I noticed this thread on your talk page and I wrote: "...this issue should be properly investigated/clarified." Later, I notified you and others watching this page repeatedly about my concerns regarding Wifione's editing, but I was largely ignored. Now I'm letting you know that the case has come to an end, see this. There is a good off-site summary and broader context described in the current issue of the Newsweek magazine. --Vejvančický (talk / contribs) 07:02, 25 March 2015 (UTC)

Was Vejvančický's behavior prior to the successful prosecution of the case WP:canvassing, WP:Nothere, WP:BATTLEFIELD, WP:CAMPAIGNING and WP:Stalking? Should Vejvančický's work be lauded or decried? Would it be better if users who see what they believe to be COI edits ignore them and WP:AGF? Should they attempt to report the problem or pretend that it does not exist? -David Tornheim (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Notice: @Vejvančický: FYI. And I think your work should be lauded. Good job.David Tornheim (talk) 14:09, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

The point here is that Vejvančický did a good job by assembling solid evidence. For sure, there is a problem with COI editing on WP, but there is also a problem with conspiracist-minded editors who will "cry COI" in advance of their (often less than neutral) objectives. In my own case, there was a particularly rich incident in which an editor took me to COIN and was then found themslves to have a COI in the very topic which was in dispute! In this case the editor "crying COI" was a not a brave seeker-after-truth; quite the opposite. Alexbrn (talk) 14:22, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

Bingo. The whole heart of WP:COI is that we bring actual strong evidence to the proper channels, but we do not sling COI, shill, etc. around without proper evidence in content disputes or otherwise. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:39, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I see, the quoted text can be a little ambiguous when you consider that perspective. Sorry about the misinterpret. However, action should come the way of people who engage in WP:HOUNDING, so pursuing that really shouldn't be characterized as "causing trouble". My sentiments in my above post remain the same because alleging COI in the manner these folks have is plain inappropriate, so in the future you should just be telling someone mirroring DePiep's actions that the way they approach COI is inappropriate and point them to the guidance we have at WP:COI for handling things. Focusing on the editors being improperly accused and saying they are going to cause trouble is improper as well.

As for the plaintiff, etc. comment, we don't use that kind of system here. Things are already sloppy when you have editors sniping on scattered talk pages. Here things should be condensed into single posts at least, though there's still no real framework. Your best bet to find posts associated with more than one user is to enter their usernames into archive search box. Kingofaces43 (talk) 14:32, 30 March 2015 (UTC)

• Response to Ian.thomson's allegations: