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Electronic cigarette

Hello Levelledout. I see that you've just made a revert at the Electronic cigarette article. Rather than reverting wholesale, please discuss changes on the talk page, otherwise it could result in a block. I'm sure that you've read it already, but if not, then please familiarise yourself with the edit-warring policy. Thank you. — Mr. Stradivarius 02:47, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello User:Mr. Stradivarius. Whilst I didn't consider it edit-warring I do accept that it was not completely necessary to perform a wholesale revert. Is there any chance that you could look into the fact that a particular user managed to get the full page protection lifted, then almost immediately made 17 edits in two hours including a 9k edit? It seems very difficult to actually work together to achieve consensus when this is happening.Levelledout (talk) 03:14, 19 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello again User:Mr. Stradivarius, would you mind giving me a bit more feedback on this issue please? I know it's been a few days since you sent the original message but I'm wondering whether you are asking me not to revert whole/multiple edits at once just on e-cigarette articles or something else? Does this restriction apply to me or all editors? I ask because as I hope you understand I don't want to get blocked. Also, I wonder if you would mind pointing out to me which policy or guideline I was in violation of in order to receive the above warning? If I am perfectly honest, in spite of what I originally said, I did consider the edit necessary as I felt that the user in question was attempting to force through large-scale changes without consensus almost immediately after that user single-handedly managed to have full-page protection removed. I have read through the edit-warring policy and am at a loss to how that particular revert could have been considered edit-warring. There was no back-and-forth reverts, the process was simply 10k of changes from user > I reverted. It was also, to my recollection, the first time I have ever reverted multiple edits at once, therefore not something that I do routinely.Levelledout (talk) 17:18, 22 March 2015 (UTC)

My previous message wasn't an official restriction, but rather a warning, and I was only warning you about the Electronic cigarette article. The article isn't under any special sanctions, but as it is obviously controversial I'll be enforcing the edit-warring policy strictly there. (In particular, note that even if you don't break the three-revert rule it can still count as edit warring and still result in a block.) And yes, it was the edit-warring policy I was referring to. To be clear, one edit by itself usually doesn't constitute edit-warring; rather, I wanted to warn you about the policy before the situation got out of hand. Hope this clears things up. Best — Mr. Stradivarius 00:57, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

OK yes understood, thank you for the information.Levelledout (talk) 17:09, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Final warning

Another revert like this one will get you blocked. I've already warned you above, so you really have no excuse this time. Discuss it at the talk page, don't revert. — Mr. Stradivarius 01:30, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Hello again User:Mr. Stradivarius, there is/was obviously still some misunderstanding about this. I thought that what you meant last time was that one edit was not generally considered edit-warring and that the warning was for informational purposes to stop it descending into an edit-war. But OK I get what you are saying. I see that you have also warned QG and in my opinion his revert did constitute edit-warring since it was reverting a revert. It may be worth also noting that the recent edits to the article appear to be in direct violation of advice recently given by an admin stating "Once unprotected, please ensure that you've achieved consensus for any changes you make to the page given how controversial it's been."

The point is that this time is the second time you have made such a wholesale revert. Yes, there was a period of full protection in between them, but it was still a second revert doing essentially the same thing as the first one. Slow-burning edit wars are still edit wars, and given the controversial nature of the article I intend to be strict about enforcing the edit-warring policy there. — Mr. Stradivarius 03:17, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

OK well I was trying to follow WP:BRD. I accept that this probably isn't appropriate for this article but the process is already being set into swing by aggressive "bold" changes. I can understand why some editors would not want page protection due to the open editing ethos but we seem to have gone straight to the other end of the scale. Now editors can aggressively add vast amounts of material without prior discussion and it can't be reverted, we have to get consensus merely to have it removed. If you are going to clampdown on large reverts then surely it is also neccesary to clampdown on large edits without prior discussion? Getting consensus to have these edits removed is far more difficult than forcing them through. This is somewhat contrary to WP:NOCONSENSUS and gives a clear advantage to editors who don't respect the consensus process. I get what you are saying User:Mr. Stradivarius, I have no choice but to stop wholsesale reverting, but I would appreciate it if you would please consider these points.Levelledout (talk) 14:33, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

• For my part, I was very tempted to block Levelledout right now, Mr. Stradivarius. After conceding here that it wasn't necessary to make such a wholesale revert, you perform the exact same wholesale revert 12 days later. This time after QuackGuru had given a detailed rationale on the talkpage, so WP:CAUTIOUS hardly applies, and it certainly doesn't make the central question of sourcing "irrelevant", as you seem to think. You are editing disruptively on Electronic cigarette. The only reason I'm not blocking you at this time is that Mr S has already warned you. Bishonen | talk 10:15, 31 March 2015 (UTC).

I am literally staggered that you think that WP:CAUTIOUS does not apply. Where exactly did QuackGuru successfully seek consensus before instating the 17k of changes? I would not even say that he provided a detailed rational since most of it focused on personally attacking me for a revert that I made nearly two weeks ago. Large-scale changes should be discussed regardless of sourcing, WP:CAUTIOUS doesn't make exceptions based on sourcing.Levelledout (talk) 13:12, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

And I'm literally bowled over that you think you needn't engage with QuackGuru's sources and rationale before reverting all the material he has added. It's a real battleground action, and, especially,this post is a battleground post. You offer no factual reason for reverting; apparently you think you don't have to. I suggest you read WP:CAUTIOUS more carefully. It doesn't mention consensus. It does say "If you choose to be bold, try to justify your change in detail on the article talk page, so as to avoid an edit war." That's what QG did, as far as I can see. You chose to edit war anyway. Bishonen | talk 14:50, 31 March 2015 (UTC).

Yes and it also says "Prevent edit warring by discussing such edits first on the article's talk page." Given that QuackGuru was told by an admin here on 20 March "Once unprotected, please ensure that you've achieved consensus for any changes you make to the page given how controversial it's been" would you not agree that he should have in fact done this? It's not that I don't consider it necessary to take QG's reasoning into account, it's that I find it difficult to believe that you think that QG gave adequate reasoning to explain 17k of changes when all he actually noted was some changes to the lead, one single word, one single sentence and a couple of other statements. Considering that QuackGuru had been editing the entire article from his sandbox for 10 days, he had ample opportunity to discuss all of the changes he was making on the article talk page. Consider that WP:CAUTIOUS also states "consider first creating a new draft on a subpage of your own user page and then link to it on the article's talk page so as to facilitate a new discussion".Levelledout (talk) 15:10, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

It is worth noting that QG did in fact link to their sandbox on the article talk page (at least twice) and others have been discussing it on the talk page. I'm not familiar enough with the discussion to say whether there was consensus for all the changes or not, but in this regard QG was indeed following WP:CAUTIOUS. ~Adjwilley (talk) 23:56, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Adjwilley, QG has inserted large amounts of information into the article from their sandbox on more than one occasion recently. On this last occasion he transferred the entire article to his sandbox on 19 March and edited from there until inserting it into the article here on 30 March. So far as I can tell at no point was anybody informed on the article talk page during this period.Levelledout (talk) 02:03, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

@Mr. Stradivarius and Bishonen:Also worth noting QG refers and links to his sandbox but edits his sanbox (no d), won't engage in discussion of his edits. Doesn't justify them in the slightest. This revert is not something worth warning over and is truly appropriate for wikipedia. Could you point me to an appropriate venue to have a discussion with other admins over the appropriateness of this warning? SPACKlick (talk) 10:01, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

The appropriate venue for that would be WP:AN. In my opinion, a slow-burning edit war is well worth warning over, however. — Mr. Stradivarius 10:58, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

General sanctions

Please read this notification carefully:
A community discussion has authorised the use of general sanctions for pages related to electronic cigarettes.
The details of these sanctions are described here.

General sanctions is a system of conduct regulation designed to minimise disruption in controversial topic areas. This means uninvolved administrators can impose sanctions for edits relating to these topics that do not adhere to the purpose of Misplaced Pages, our standards of behaviour, or relevant policies. Administrators may impose sanctions such as editing restrictions, bans, or blocks. An editor can only be sanctioned after he or she has been made aware that general sanctions are in effect. This notification is meant to inform you that sanctions are authorised in these topic areas, which you have been editing. It is only effective if it is logged here. Before continuing to edit pages in these topic areas, please familiarise yourself with the general sanctions system. Don't hesitate to contact me or another editor if you have any questions.

This message is informational only and does not imply misconduct regarding your contributions to date.

Bishonen | talk 22:08, 1 April 2015 (UTC).