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• Talk:Kingdom of Judah/archive1 (2004-mid 2005, contains BC/BCE edit conflict)

From the end of the Kingdom ...

I have done some edits in this section.

Since 63 Judea was under Roman supremacy, but at first it was not province but under the Hasmonean high-priest and his chief-minister Antipater, father to Herod.

I also have problems with the following_

37 BC–AD 100: The Herodian Kingdom of Judaea, an autonomous realm within the Roman Empire. The last Herodian King, Agrippa II (c. 48 - 100), sided with the Romans in the first Jewish Revolt of 66 - 73, which saw the Temple destroyed in AD 70.

Herod's kingdom existed until his death in 4 BC. After that it was split between his sons and reunited only between 41 and 44 under Agrippa I.

From 6 to 41 and from 44 to 66 Judea (in the narrower sense) was under direct Roman rule under a procurator subject to the Roman legate in Syria.

Sometime between 66 and 70 Judea was elevated to the status of province under a legate. This province was renamed Palestine after 135.

How should this be worded?

I also removed the phrase "ultimately giving its name to modernity as Western Society" from the Roman Empire section, since it seemed to me both off-topic and quite strange.

Finally, I also rectified the Ptolemaian-Seleucid period and elaborated on the Crusades period.

Str1977 11:14, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

Feeding in on that issue is another question: What territory does this article actually cover? Is it only Judea or is it "Palestine" in toto? Please answer someone.

PS. And please take care not to revert substantial edits while fighting out fruitless edit wars. Str1977 21:57, 10 October 2005 (UTC)

I think the answer to how to deal with the early Roman period is contained in the answer as to what territory the article covers. I would basically suggest that this should cover the approximate territory of the Kingdom of Judah - i.e., the later Judaea - and not nearby territories like Idumaea, Samaria, Galilee, Iturea, Batanea, and so forth. Why should an article called "Kingdom of Judah" cover Palestine in toto? john k 15:30, 18 October 2005 (UTC)

Judah and Israel

I had a look into the Kingdom of Israel article which starts with King Saul. Shouldn't the Kingdom of Judah article accordingly start with David? After all: when Saul died, the Judeans made David their king, while another part of the Israelites made Ishbaal king. Only after the latter's death did David unite the two kingdoms in his hand, a union that broke again after king Solomon's death. In modern language this could be described as a personal union of two kingdoms. Anyway, I don't think that starting the Kingdom of Judah with Rehoboam is accurate nor is it correct that Rehoboam ever was king of Israel. Thoughts? Str1977 23:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

• No. Israel had two dynasties. Saul was the first. Saul was considered king. Why is Rehoboam never thought to be king? Sorry, I'm confused. Falphin 02:51, 10 November 2005 (UTC)
• Oh, I see what you're saying. I believe the arguement goes that the Kingdom of Israel is the sucessor state to the first Kingdom of Israel. Falphin 02:52, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Let me explain:

• First, there was the kingdom of Israel (meaning the twelve tribes) under King Saul.
• Even during his reign, David was secretly annointed, but we can pass over this here.
• When Saul died, the Kingdom of Israel remained, but in a shattered state. Many parts were occupied by the Philistines. Next to the Jordan, followers of Saul made his son Ishbaal king of Israel - claiming the twelve tribes but ruling only some in fact.
• At the same time, the tribe of Juda made David their king. IMHO, this is the beginning of the kingdom of Juda.
• Ishbaal of Israel was killed and his followers submitted to David, who also defeated the Philistines, uniting the whole country under one ruler. But, to anachronistically use modern political terms, this was a "personal union" of the two kingdoms of Israel and Juda.
• This union prevailed under David and his son Solomon, though it was almost split by the revolt of Sheba (2 Sam 20).
• After Solomon's death, his son Rehoboam became King of Judah by heritage (2 Kings 11,43) and met with the Israelites at Shechem to be installed as King of Israel (2 Kings 12). But this harsh behaviour caused the Israelites to withdraw and elect their own king.

So we have two kingdoms - Israel starting with Saul, Judah with David - united for some time under David and Solomon, but parting ways after Solomon's death. Str1977 09:24, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

- I think that it was all one country with one ruler (with some minor revolts that didn't last long) untill after solomons death.

• I don't understand why these Articles do not point out that it was not the people that elected a King over Israel, but according to the Scriptures Almighty God had a Prophet appoint the King over Israel dividing Israel and Judah, because of Salomon's transgression against Almighty God. The Scriptures even rebuke them that tr1ed to stop Ten Tribes from being given unto Ephraim saying that this also ids of God.

Josepr R Loegering 18:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by JosephLoegering (talk • contribs)

Image

The image seems to be squishing the chart. I tried to move it around without success; if anyone knows how to move it to accomodate the chart better...--Rob117 05:52, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. I moved it a couple of paragraphs higher. Please see if this works. ←Humus sapiens←ну? 06:03, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Table

Can someone in the know fix the lines of the table that are different? I tried to but I have no clue how to do it. Str1977 15:02, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

Map may need fixing

The current map, labeled as c.830 BC, seems to be somewhat inaccurate for that period- by 830 BC, Israel's transjordanian territories had been given over to Hazael of Damascus, and Israel was limited to cisjordan. The Assyrian Empire proper did not yet border Damascus, although they did besiege Damascus, unsuccessfully, in 838; Assyria's expansion into the Levant was gradual, with waxing and waning, and was done mostly through vassal treaties- direct annezation did not become the rule until the time of Tiglath-pileser III. By 830, after the Assyrian threat had passed, Damascus under Hazael dominated the entire Levant. Assyrian reach did not come this far south again until the reign of Adad-nirari III, who captured Damascus in 796 (imposing tribute, but not annexing it). If the intention is to show Israel a map of Israel under the Omrides, which the map's territory seems to match, it should be labeled as c.850 BC and Edom should be annexed to Judah.--Rob117 19:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bible as source?

"According to the Hebrew Bible..." Clearly the Bible is full of myths and propaganda and in itself not a valid source for historical accuracy. Perhaps there should be a separate paragraph for what the Bible says about Judah, similar to how other topics have a paragraph about references in popular culture.--Tchoutoye 12:00, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

In the first place, while most historians recognize that the Deuteronomic History (i.e., the Book of Kings) is full of myths and propaganda, they also have generally felt that it also contains reliable historical information, and many have been fairly confident that they can decipher which parts are reliable history, and which parts are later myth. Furthermore, many of the prophetic books are actually considered to be at least partially written during the life of the Kingdom of Judah. If you think that the presence of myths and propaganda in a source makes it "not a valid source" for historical inquiry, then we would have to exclude just about the entirety of ancient historical writing, and conclude that we know nothing about ancient or medieval history at all. But, of course, you don't actually think that, you just dislike the Bible. The Bible is basically our only major source on the Kingdom of Judah, and most historians have been interested in figuring out what in it can be trusted, and what cannot. Your suggestion is ridiculous, in that I can't imagine what the "Main" part of the article would consist of if you took out material derived from the Bible. john k 12:18, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

This artical doesn't meet the Misplaced Pages standards for neutrality, verifiability and it does not quote accepted sources. I've added the appropriate tags. Hopefully someone can rewrite the whole artical and present the material in a more appropriate manner. 76.176.114.213 00:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I think there should be separated articles on the history of Judah (and Israel) as described in the Bible, and the history as "described" by archeological evidences. For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein & N.A. Silberman. They are - as far as it makes sense - critical towards the history written in the Bible, based on evidences partially discovered by themselves (and to answer John K: yes, there are many clear evidences, that show, that the Bible is not always a valid source for history! It gives a very useful background for archeological research though), but again they point out cleary - and so do I - that the Bible isn't a history book at all!! It is an excellent work of literature (formally), and for two major religions The Source (spiritually) containing some historical information as well. We just have to know what to use it for (and how)!

all you who say the tanakh is not a credible source  : you're whole claim is childish , the jewish tanakh books are the only books from the ancient times which represent a nation which says the complete truth about even the most key people in its history , most respected and most loved people in their history, the tanakh is not "covering up" for no one , and to be honest , its the only ancient source who does so it seems none of you would ever claim such things on The assyrian and egyptian sources which are full of mistakes , blunt lies and glorification of their kings (which usually dont deserve it)

"For the latter everyone just read The Bible unearthed by I. Finkelstein etc "

oh , you mean the same i.finkelstien who decleared that the V||| layer in meggido is from the middle of the 14 century bc (against evidence proving its cannot be erlier then the end of the 14 century bc according to archeaological work using Mycenaean ceramic found in the layer, And a carbon 14 test) just so it would correspond to the historic knowlege reflected through the amarna letters. that finkelstein ? he's a joke , and that book is not founded, and is already contradicted by hundred of articles and books which proved how baseless are the claims of that pathetic book.

oh and btw - judah in the first temple period was usually much bigger then that map shows(try including edom which was most of the time a a subjact of judah) message by hebraic —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hebraic (talk • contribs) 20:41, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Hebraic, your argument shows extreme bias. In order to meet Misplaced Pages's quality standards, religious documents cannot be used as primary sources. Textual criticism and archaeology have established a conflicting picture of of historic Israel and Judah than what is offered in the bible, and have salient reasons to back that picture up. This material should be presented. I will flag the article until the issue is resolved. Let us please rework the article to meet Misplaced Pages's guidelines. entropyandvodka (talk

"God's Worshipper's Kingdom"

The kingdom is named after the tribe Judah, which does not mean 'God's Worshipper', but is a name. The name originally meant 'Thank God'. I dont understand the translation.

No it means Thank Yahweh. "Thank God" would be Eldah! 203.59.11.115 14:12, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Timeline

If the Bible is the main source of information, the article needs more explanation of where the dates are derived from. I assume it is something more intelligent than the argument which leads some Christians to believe that the Earth and Universe are 6000 years old, but what is it in each case? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.7.20.133 (talk) 01:43, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

First off, Biblical dates after the founding of the Israelite monarchy (ca. 1000 B.C.) are far more definite and least partially historically founded than Biblical dating references to periods before the founding of the Israelite monarchy. The Biblical information about the sequence and lengths of individual reigns is certainly used (since information on these matters is simply not available anywhere else), but great efforts are also made to synchronize with external chronologies wherever possible. Three different scholarly schemes are tabulated right in the table on the article page. AnonMoos 08:37, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

There is no independent non-Biblical confirmation of any Biblical date before the reign of Ahab. So say that dates after the founding of the monarchy before that date is factually incorrect. 203.59.11.115 14:14, 14 March 2007 (UTC)

Incorrect Scriptural Citation

The main article references Joshua 18 which far predates post-Solomonic Israel. The first citation for Jerusalem being the capital of Southern Kingdom is most likely in 1 Kings 12 instead. Additionally, 2 Samuel 5:6-9 describes David conquering Jerusalem and making it his capital (Hebron served as his capital during the years he reigned over Judah alone).

Joshua 18:28 (NIV) reads "Zelah, Haeleph, the Jebusite city (that is, Jerusalem), Gibeah and Kiriath—fourteen towns and their villages. This was the inheritance of Benjamin for its clans." While this obviously mentions Jerusalem, it does not lay it out as the capital of the Kingdom of Judah.

The division of the Unified Kingdom occurs in 1 Kings 12, with Rehoboam driving off the Northern Kingdom (Israel) with his harsh demands.

Zamoose 12:06, 20 March 2007 (UTC)

It's all a bunch of BS anyways Zamoose, so why be bothered about minutea? The Fifth Column (talk) 08:42, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

New lead

I've revised the lead quite radically ("edit boldly"). There were two problems with the existing lead: First, it was far too long - a lead has to be a brief guide to the subject, and the old one was far from brief; second, it was not really no more than a summary of the bible, which is not a reliable historical source. I recognise that the new lead has no citations - this is a fault, and perhaps I should supply some. PiCo (talk) 02:24, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

Besides that. The introduction, as it currently stands, places more focus on the subsequent fate of the area rather than the Kingdom itself. Two centuries of archaelogical research and theories on this minor state are not even mentioned. Dimadick (talk) 22:47, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

You're right. I've cut it back and it now deals with the birth and death of Judah as known from archaeology. It does need to be expanded, because more than this is known. PiCo (talk) 00:29, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Serious lack of photos and illustrations in the article

please do something about it, thanks.

This article is outdated

A serious deficiency in this entry: The author assumes that the Kingdom of Judah existed no earlier than the 9th century BCE, and the first Judean king he finds in external sources is Hezekiah. This claim is 16 years out of date. The Tel Dan Inscription, written by an Aramean king, Hazael II, mentions Ahaziah, King of Judah and contemporary of Jehoram, King of Israel, both of whom Hazael claims to have defeated and killed in battle - an event that occurred in the mid-9th century BCE. Moreover, he entitles Ahaziah as king of "the House of David", his term for the Kingdom of Judah. This is a typical usage of that period - naming the kingdom for the founder of the ruling dynasty. Similarly, Amos calls Aram Damascus "the House of Hazael", and Assyriaqn inscriptions of the period entitle Israel "bit Humri" - "the House of Omri". What this meaqns is that the ruling dynasty of Judah was founded by King David, and that this occurred at some time before King Ahaziah. Thus, there is no reason why we should not accept the list of Judean kings presented in Kings as historical, and date the founding of the dynasty back to the 10th century BCE (the regnal years of David and Solomon appear to be typological (40 years apiece), which is why I refrain from writing "early 10th century"). Why should anyone invent these kings? To fill in the gap between David and Ahaziah? Unacceptable. The most one can say is that not all words and deeds attributed to them by the Deuteronimistic redactor of Kings are historical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yonsaf (talk • contribs) 08:25, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

We need a reliable source to make the sort of changes you suggest. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 08:46, 9 October 2011 (UTC)

Note, however, that the current sources are dated 2007 and 2011 (the last one by the media, and not as important). So it would be nearly impossible to present something discovered 16 years ago that would somehow contradict these reports. An editor would have to somehow demonstrate that these (newer) supposed experts had "overlooked" these "Ahaziah" discoveries made years before. There appears to be a gap here between an initial report made 16 years ago and subsequent analysis by other experts which may have placed the older findings into eclipse. It would be nice to demonstrate otherwise. I hope you are successful. Student7 (talk) 17:15, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Archeology

It is possible that we will need a "minimalist" vs "maximalist" article or statement in every article on pre-Alexandrian Israel/Judah/Jerusalem. Inserting it in one article alone seems insufficient, IMO. Student7 (talk) 01:42, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

MAP

Here is a nice map for you guys if you find a place for it.

Gsonnenf (talk) 11:05, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

I find it hard to read. Too fussy and too colored. Even when magnified, but thanks for looking.

Also, have we ever found archeological evidence of the "ten northern tribes." Student7 (talk) 13:30, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

The Thirteen Tribes of Israel

In the order of birth the twelve sons of Jacob are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph and Benjamin, and they become the ancestors of thirteen tribes, because Joseph has two sons, Mannasseh and Ephraim which become two tribes, leaving one Tribe upon the shepherd stone not numbered among the twelve tribes.

Genesis Chapter 35 Verses 22 to 26 Genesis Chapter 48 Verses 5 Genesis Chapter 49 Verse 24

During the days of Moses and shortly thereafter, the tribe of Levi stood upon the shepherd stone, not being numbered among the twelve numbered Tribes, and Levi was given no inheritance in the Promised Land, so that all Levi dwelt among the twelve numbered Tribes, as the only Priesthood in Israel, until the days of Samuel of the Tribe of Ephraim, which was given to Ephraim because the sons of Joseph obtained the birthright.

Number Chapter 1 1 Chronicles Chapter 5 Verses 1-2

The Levitical High Priest Eli, had sinned against Yahweh, and Samuel was raised up as a new High Priest placing the Tribe of Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes, as a new Priesthood upon the shepherd stone unto this day, even though the Levitical Priesthood continues.

1 Samuel Chapters 1 to 3

Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin was anointed as King of Israel, but he sinned against Yahweh, and David of the Tribe of Judah was anointed as King in his place.

1 Samuel Chapter 9 1 Samuel Chapter 16

David’s son Solomon forsook Yahweh because of the influence of evil women, and even failed to mention the name Yahweh in his writings of Ecclesiastics and the Song of Solomon, (the only two scrolls of the twenty four scrolls of the Tanakh besides Ester, that do not contain the name Yahweh,) so in Solomon’s son’s days, the Kingdom was divided.

1 Kings Chapter 11 verse 4

The Tribe of Benjamin was given to the house of David and the Tribe of Judah as the southern Kingdom, the Kingdom of Judah made of just two Tribes, and ten Tribes including Levi were given unto the Tribe of Ephraim as the northern Kingdom Israel, leaving Ephraim not numbered among the twelve Tribes. JosephLoegering (talk) 18:44, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Also, in both the map above and this contribution, 12-13 tribes are discussed. Yet the article is about the Kingdom of Judah, the 2-3 southern tribes. How would any of this be used to improve this article? Student7 (talk) 13:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Reorganization of Headings?

I noticed that most of the article is under the heading "Biblical Narrative." However, the "Clash of Empires" and "Destruction and dispersion" subheadings appear to be more based on archaeology and research than on the biblical narrative. For example:

Necho then joined forces with the Assyrian Ashur-uballit II and together they crossed the Euphrates and lay siege to Harran. The combined forces failed to capture the city, and Necho retreated back to northern Syria. The event also marked the disintegration of the Assyrian Empire.

Although no citation is given, this assertion appears to be based on extra-biblical authority. So I'm wondering if these sections really belong under the "Biblical Narrative" umbrella, or if perhaps they can be combined with the "Archaeological Record" section for a complete discussion of scientific/historical inquiry into the actual history of the Kingdom of Judah.--BenEsq (talk) 04:33, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Hi, I agree that material that isn't sourced from biblical texts belongs outside the biblical-narrative section. However, IMO to move them there we'll need the extra-biblical sources. --Dailycare (talk) 20:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

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