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redirecting to Touré

Touré shouldn't automatically redirect here. There are too many other important people called Touré, including the former prime minister of Mali.

Requested moves

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. I will move this article to the (journalist) DAB, but no objections to a second discussion on a potentially better one. Help on cleaning up the links would be appreciated. Number 57 15:16, 15 October 2014 (UTC)

• Touré → Touré (television personality)
• Touré (surname) → Touré

– The television figure is not the primary topic. Amongst others, users might be searching for Ahmed Sékou Touré, the former president of Guinea, Ali Farka Touré, 'one of the African continent’s most internationally renowned musicians', Amadou Toumani Touré, the former president of Mali, Kolo Touré, the footballer who has played for Liverpool, Manchester City and Arsenal, Samori Ture, the founder of the Wassoulou Empire, or Yaya Touré, the Manchester City footballer. 86.154.155.169 (talk) 23:23, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Support WP:ASTONISH, yes very surprising occupant of a common surname slot. In ictu oculi (talk) 01:32, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support per nom -- 65.94.171.225 (talk) 05:04, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support this man pretty obviously is not the primary topic over the presidents, historical figures, and the footballer! —innotata 06:34, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose Hatnote with link to disambiguation page is linked for those seeking other names. Also, if it is moved, I don't agree that "television personality" should necessarily be the designation; "writer" would probably be more appropriate.--Larrybob (talk) 17:13, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

• How about 'journalist' instead? That might be a little more accurate than just 'writer'. 86.154.155.169 (talk) 20:03, 29 September 2014 (UTC)
• I find it hard to believe the journalist/TV personality is the primary topic, by our usual definition, even though he goes by a mononym, against the political figures, several from prominent families of this name, and the famous footballer. If there were a TV host known by 'Anderson' in some country where it was an uncommon name, that wouldn't make him/her the main topic for the surname. —innotata 21:56, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - Hatnote is, I think, fine. If move passes, I say "Touré (journalist)" is the best choice. TuckerResearch (talk) 00:17, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support to Touré (surname) → Touré. I abstain in the discussion about the TV personality/writer/journalist. Asturkian (talk) 22:03, 30 September 2014 (UTC)
• Support, but not to "Touré (television personality)". Instead, move to "Touré (journalist)" ("Touré (writer)" would be OK too, the guy's got four books, granting that at least one is a collection of essays). Just "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)" is preferable for the disambig -- more flexibile (for instance, this person could not be listed at "Touré (surname)). Herostratus (talk) 05:10, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• You have a point on "Touré" rather than "Touré (surname)." TuckerResearch (talk) 13:54, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

• Support "Touré (surname)" → "Touré" and support "Touré" to "Touré (whatever consensus settles upon)". Gnome de plume (talk) 00:31, 2 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support proposed name as not primary topic. What about Touré Neblett instead? Some sources use it. --George Ho (talk) 04:44, 4 October 2014 (UTC)
• Support because this article is not the primary topic. Moving to Touré Neblett makes sense: it avoids choosing between television personality, writer and journalist. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 12:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

• If you look at the battle royale in the archives of this talkpage, you'll notice we went over the whole surname bit. There was a big argument about whether his surname should be mentioned at all. But the title of this page, whatever decided here, should stay "Touré" because the subject prefers to be known by his mononym (say, like "Madonna (entertainer)"). TuckerResearch (talk) 17:56, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

It should stay just "Touré" but not because of his preference but because that's his byline and how he's best known and most often referred to. Herostratus (talk) 20:44, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

If he is best known as his stage name (like Adele), then move to Touré (something), where the something describes him (television personality/writer/journalist). However, if he is often known by his real name, then that should be used. I do not know what is most common here. 131.111.185.66 (talk) 22:37, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Just "Touré", I'm confident, unless there's been a large and rapid recent change. During the dustup here (only one or two years ago) it was only possible to find a couple of obscure references which even give his last name, which he does not give out and which he has tried to keep entirely secret. Herostratus (talk) 23:48, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Career section issues

Hello to anyone watching this page! I'm looking for some help in addressing various issues with the content of this article, particularly within the Career section. Up front, I would like to say that I'm here on behalf of Touré and, due to this financial conflict of interest, I will not make any direct edits to this article.

While there are several issues I'd ultimately like to address, first I'd like to get some input on the first paragraph of the Writing career section. Right now, this paragraph details criticism from conservative web publications The Daily Caller and The Blaze regarding the student publication started by Touré (The Fire This Time) as well as some related events while he was a student at Emory. In my view, undue weight has been given to these views, particularly considering media coverage of these topics was limited to just these two publications.

To break it down, here are the specific issues I see with the current wording:

• The first sentence currently reads "While a student at Emory University, Touré founded the school's black student newspaper, The Fire This Time, which has been criticized for being militantly anti-white." This makes it sound like The Fire This Time and Touré have received widespread criticism, which is not the case, only The Daily Caller has made such claims, which were then repeated in a post on The Blaze.
• The current wording also says that the publication's articles "praised noted anti-Semites, black supremacists, and conspiracy theorists such as H. Rap Brown and Frances Cress Welsing, whom Touré invited to Emory's campus." I haven't been able to find any other sources mentioning the visit or saying that Touré had invited Welsing, nor any other critical coverage of The Fire This Time's interview with H. Rap Brown, nor any other specifics.
• The paragraph includes The Caller's criticism of Touré's statement in relation to an incident at Emory, where a black college student named Sabrina Collins had claimed to be the victim of racist vandalism in her dorm room, which was later said to be a hoax. Touré was not involved; he simply wrote about it in The Fire This Time.
• Lastly, the only reporting here is from The Caller, and its first bylined reporter is Charles C. Johnson, who has been frequently criticized in reliable sources for producing unreliable reporting (for example, Dave Weigel writing for Slate). Frankly, I would be very cautious about using this story in any way.

It's my view that much of the above detail does not belong in the article. It generally relates to things that happened while Touré was a student, well before his career was established. Regarding the general criticism, I'm more open to the idea of keeping a summary statement about this but I'm interested to hear what others think. At the very least, this should be tightened up and made clear the criticism originated with The Daily Caller. It's worth noting that Touré and The Caller are at different ends of the political spectrum and the latter often writes critically of progressive media figures.

Below, I've offered an updated version of this paragraph for editors to review and consider as a basis for replacing the current section. You'll see that I have offered a potential summary of the criticism from The Daily Caller, but otherwise removed the details listed above. This is just a suggested draft, so I'd be happy to discuss other ways the paragraph could be rewritten.

References

1. Loftus, Mary J. (Autumn 2009). "News makers". Emory Magazine. Retrieved 25 April 2012.
2. ^ Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan (April 9, 2013). "MSNBC's Touré founded militant anti-white student paper". The Daily Caller.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
3. ^ Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). "Report: MSNBC Host Touré Founded a 'Militant Anti-White Student Newspaper'". Yahoo! News.

Again, I'm looking to discuss the above issues and hopefully find a way to resolve them in the article. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:35, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

Thanks to Alanscottwalker, the paragraph has been edited to remove everything sourced to The Daily Caller. I'm very happy with this outcome, so thank you very much! This request is now complete, but I will be returning soon to discuss one more issue and propose some general updates to the article. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:16, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

I actually found User:Alanscottwalker's edit too drastic. I think User:WWB_Too's suggested text was quite pithy, fair, even-handed, and fine. So I have added it as suggested. I think the Daily Caller source and the Yahoo! source are fine. (PS, when all Misplaced Pages references to the Huffington Post are removed, I'll stand by a removal of all references to the Daily Caller.) I agree with User:WWB_Too (and, presumably, Touré) that it was too harsh as written before this. I think the article in this section is fine as it stands. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:50, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You pinged me? I disagree that my edit was "drastic" see WP:BLP, removal is the proper choice - and as your edit apparently did not restore the writing that I removed than it appears certain I did the right thing. I have not formulated an opinion on the new text you added, nor the source use for it. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:21, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi TuckerResearch and Alanscottwalker. Since there's disagreement between you as to what, if anything, should be included regarding the coverage from The Daily Caller, I wanted to clarify that I am in favor of removing all of the information because of the unreliability of the source. As I mentioned above, the only reporting is by a writer who has specifically been criticized in the past for his unreliable and inaccurate reporting. The summary I offered was a potential compromise if editors feel that the information absolutely has to stay. Does that change your feeling on including the wording about The Fire This Time sourced to The Daily Caller, TuckerResearch? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 15:28, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

Howdy! (And thank you for being so amicable an editor!) I think your first suggested edit was quite reasonable and even-handed. I think that Alanscottwalker's removal of everything was too much. Now that I've put in your reasonable suggested edit, you want a more drastic edit?! As mentioned above I don't think a sourced mention (even if it is from a right-wing website), if it doesn't place undue wait, is alright. As it was originally written, and I think you were right, it did place undue wait. As written now, I think it's fine. If anyone else wants to comment, we can hash it out. Full disclosure, I'm a conservative and not Touré's biggest fan when it comes to politics (his music writing is pretty good, though), but I'd like to think I'm giving him a fair shake here on Misplaced Pages. I don't think his article should be one long list of attacks and screeds against him, but I also don't think it should be scrubbed of all information he finds odious. (I think it borders on WP:COI, and we must find a way to balance WP:BLP, WP:COI, and WP:UNDUE.) I consider that unfair to Misplaced Pages readers of all political stripes. I think we can best be helped by further comments from editors (and I think there are several who watch and/or lurk on this page). Comments please! TuckerResearch (talk) 02:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi again, TuckerResearch, thanks for the reply explaining your thinking on this issue, and volunteering your personal views as well. Looking back I see that my initial request wasn't clear, but it was my intention to first suggest that the material to be removed entirely—as User:Alanscottwalker did—and only second to offer the proposed summary as a compromise if editors felt the mention did have to stay in the article.

Below I see you've compared The Daily Caller with The Daily Beast (a source used elsewhere in the article). It is not The Caller I object to as a source per se, but the unreliability of this particular author, per the explanation above. (Most relevant, this writer has previously been criticized for misinterpreting student publication archives to score political points.)

Hence my preference to see this information cut entirely. I think it's very important for this article to provide relevant career information. Touré having founded and edited this paper certainly counts. A writer for The Caller having an opinion about this paper, however, is not a necessary part of Touré's biography. What do you think? Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:43, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Just one last time, I'd like to ping this discussion to see if any other editors would like to weigh in on the inclusion of the criticism from The Daily Caller piece. Also, pinging Alanscottwalker and Anthonyhcole to see if either of you have any (further) thoughts on this issue. I stand by my argument that the source can't be considered "reliable" due to its author specifically having been criticized for his inaccurate and inflammatory reporting, and would like to see it removed as a source from the article. However, if editors prefer to keep the source and language in the article, I'll accept the consensus and simply note my objection. (Also, just to note: I'm still working on getting copyright permission recorded for a new photo of Touré and will return here when that's sorted to ask if someone can add that.) Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:30, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

This is beginning to get tedious, I think, this advocacy for your client on the same two-sentence issue, over-and-over. Here you've cherry-picked the names of two editors to try to solicit their comments in your favor. (Why these two? Why not editors Herostratus or Collect? Or why not ping me?) I think I have been fair and impartial to you and your client Touré, trying to make this article better (maybe you don't think that). I've worked with you and other editors to create compromise, balanced points-of-view, and a non-partial, informative text. These mere two sentences accompanied by this citation gives important info on Touré's early career and both Mr. Touré's own words and an editorial commentary (or, "criticism," if you prefer) on it. Two sides. NPOV. I don't see the problem. I don't see any inaccuracies or inflammatory statements in these two sentences. If Mr. Touré is so worked up about his own eleven words in this article ("an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building") and its complement, a four-word description of The Fire This Time ("'militant' African-American publication"), I think he should withdraw from the public eye. TuckerResearch (talk) 06:26, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

TuckerResearch, as mentioned above, this is the final time of asking and I am only doing so because no one had replied previously, aside from yourself. Your note, "Comments please!", suggested you'd also be interested in what others had to say. Since you'd already commented, I pinged Anthonyhcole because he had been most involved in the other discussions on this page, and Alanscottwalker had said earlier that he was thinking about this issue, but had not returned yet. You're right, I could have pinged Collect and Herostratus on this topic, but it just didn't occur to me to do so, since they'd only briefly weighed in re: the surname and didn't seem inclined to discuss the page further.

Anyway, with no-one else replying it seems like this is going nowhere and I by no means wish to keep flogging a dead horse. On a different note, OTRS finally received the copyright permission for the new profile image of Toure. Since this is a more recent and higher quality image, what do you think about adding it to the infobox? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:14, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you so much, TuckerResearch, for adding the photo to that article. With that, I will conclude my requests here. I'd like to thank everyone who weighed in on this page. Although we did not always agree in our discussions here, I appreciate the perspectives that you each brought and hope we can agree that the article is much improved by the changes that have been made. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:44, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

Discussion of "controversies"

Hello again, following my last request, I would now like to turn to the second major issue that I can see in the Career section, this time under the Television section. The main issue as I see it is that the majority of this section currently covers a few small "controversies" that could be summarized into one to two sentences. Right now, over one third of the section is dedicated to a discussing a single tweet by Touré that was taken out of context. A further one third covers two other events where Touré was involved in short-lived debates.

Similar to the coverage from The Daily Caller, it seems like relatively minor events are being given undue weight within the article. In each case, while the individual event received some news coverage (mainly within publications that discuss the media) at the time, it is not an ongoing or major controversy. What do editors here think about reducing the second and third paragraphs of this section down to a short summary?

Here's a suggestion for what that might look like:

References

1. Tommy Christopher (30 March 2012). "Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud". Mediaite. Retrieved 15 October 2014.
2. Allison Samuels (31 March 2012). "Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
3. Erik Wemple (17 August 2012). "MSNBC's Touré apologizes for 'niggerization' remark". The Washington Post. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
4. Jessica Chasmar (27 May 2014). "MSNBC's Touré says 'power of whiteness' benefited Holocaust survivors". The Washington Times. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
5. Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC Host Apologizes for ‘Power of Whiteness’ Tweet About Holocaust". MSNBC.

Does the above summary work? If not, I'm open to other options to address this section. Let me know what you think. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:25, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

(I saw this mentioned at WP:BLPN. I supported leaving his "slave name" out of this article per his request a few years back.)

I prefer the existing text, actually. Speaking as someone who knows almost nothing about the man (I live in Australia), I found those little vignettes quite informative. They give me an impression of his polemical style, and leave me thinking he's someone who can own up when he makes a gaffe. They kind of fill in something about his personality that a plain list of achievements and career moves can't. Perhaps there's something I'm not getting, though, that is apparent in the USA context. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 00:55, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I stand with User:Anthonyhcole here. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:51, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I understand why you both prefer there being this information in the article, but it's simply too much detail on these blink-and-you'll-miss-it events versus the coverage of the rest of his career. Currently the latter is described concisely, whereas these "controversies" are given considerably more space. Altogether the amount of detail on these events seems clearly WP:UNDUE, and the point by point description of them surely goes against the spirit of WP:SUMMARY. Unlike the information from The Daily Caller, I'm not saying that the details should be removed entirely, but instead summarized. The wording I suggested above is a starting point and I'd be open to suggestions for an alternative. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 15:32, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm open to some editing, some concision, but I think your suggested edit here removes too much info and detail. I don't think as it stands it goes against WP:SUMMARY to mention the exact words Touré used. I also think, and I mean this with all due respect, that the sentence: "During Touré's career he has made several controversial statements including ones made on Twitter in response to tweets directed at him" are weasel words (WP:WEASEL). (And, on my own personal soapbox here, to me it is just as bad to use a story from The Daily Beast as The Daily Caller. One is liberal , one is conservative . I'm an inclusionist: the more information the better on Misplaced Pages, let the reader decide.) Might I suggest the following, and let's see what everyone thinks, and I welcome your input:

In March 2012, Touré criticized Piers Morgan's interview of Robert Zimmerman regarding his brother George Zimmerman's shooting of Trayvon Martin on Morgan's CNN talk show, Piers Morgan Tonight. In August 2012, on The Cycle, Touré caused a controversy by stating that by calling President Barack Obama "angry," Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney was engaging in the "niggerization" of the president. He apologized for using the word the next day.

References

1. Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). "Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré In Real Time To Settle Twitter Feud". Mediaite.
2. Christopher, Tommy (March 30, 2012). "Piers Morgan And Touré Finish Their Twitter Feud On CNN’s Air". Mediaite.
3. Stableford, Dylan (Apr 1, 2012). "Toure apologizes for Piers Morgan meltdown". Yahoo! News.
4. Wemple, Erik (17 Aug 2012). "MSNBC's Touré apologizes for 'niggerization' remark". The Washington Post. Retrieved 2012-09-21.
5. Chasmar, Jessica (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC’s Touré says ‘power of whiteness’ benefited Holocaust survivors". The Washington Times.
6. Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC Host Apologizes for ‘Power of Whiteness’ Tweet About Holocaust". MSNBC.

I know it's not much of a reduction, but I think it's better than your suggestion. What do our fellow editors think?

P.S. - I'd like to see more comments and reviews of his writing career ADDED to the article, to balance out the television stuff. How can we do that!?!? TuckerResearch (talk) 02:25, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I understand your concerns with my draft and appreciate your comments. I have now taken a close look at your suggestion, but I still disagree with keeping so much detail. Meanwhile, I totally get that you and User:Anthonyhcole find this interesting, but I submit that interestingness is not the proper threshold for inclusion. A biographical article should provide a concise overview of a notable person's career, and needn't go in-depth on a given sub-topic just because sources exist. That Touré has had contentious words with other media personalities is noteworthy; the particulars of each incident is not.

Consider, the issue here is really a larger one that impacts Misplaced Pages—the "if it bleeds, it leads" aspect of news coverage. Should we let the content of this encyclopedia be so heavily influenced by the preoccupations of a pageview-driven media culture that turns brief Twitter exchanges into "controversies"? I suggest that we do not, and that we take the long view instead: this should be a broad overview of his career. (Related to which, I must respectfully disagree that my version violates WP:WEASEL. Classic cases of weasel words are "some people say" and "research has shown". Rather, I chose words that broadly described the events.)

I am certainly in favor of including more information about other aspects of his career, for example, more can be said about the books he has written. However, even with that information added, this section would still be unduly weighted toward details of minor incidents. Regardless of the wording we eventually agree upon, I believe we should be mindful of limiting detail. Readers who want to know more can always follow the citations. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:47, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

WWB Too, it's not just "interesting", it's informative - it tells me something about the subject's political stance, whom he stands against, (and, as I said) his polemical style and his ability to acknowledge when he's gone too far. If your concern is that it's unduly negative, from this distance it doesn't look unduly negative - it's just the argy-bargy that politically engaged writers do. From here, that's how it looks.

All that said, though, it's a pretty slim and fragmentary biography. A more complete, better-written piece may well convey what the disputed segments convey without needing to go into detail - or even mention the incidents - but that will depend on good sources doing the same.

(The problem here - as with most of our biographies - is that the article is cobbled together based on primary sources, mostly news reports and journalistic commentary. In our other most sensitive field, medicine, our articles are based on secondary (peer-reviewed overviews by experts) and tertiary (graduate-level textbooks, other encyclopedias, etc.) sources, so we can take our lead on what/how to report from those expert overviews. Misplaced Pages should slash its "biography of living persons" offering back to only those subjects who have been well-covered in independent, reliable biographies. Until then, this.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:00, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

I think a summary could be just as informative, and I don't think this level of detail is necessary to describe his polemical style—at this point I think it's very nearly a WP:PROSELINE (minus the bullets). Now, I realize I'm swimming upstream here, and I do have other points to make, so I don't want to wear out either of you with an interminable argument. Indeed, I appreciate you continuing to discuss the matter. I want to try another version of the wording, aiming to find a middle ground between what I and TuckerResearch had proposed. I should have another version of compromise wording to share tomorrow. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 22:15, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

Hi again Anthonyhcole and TuckerResearch. I've thought a bit further about my problems with these two paragraphs. It's actually not just that they are too long, though the second paragraph is, definitely. Additionally, the first one doesn't really explain what was going on in the Piers Morgan debate, while the circumstances of the Romney situation is difficult to follow (i.e. "caused a controversy by stating that by calling..."). With that in mind, here's another version for consideration. I have aimed to:

• Include some explanation for the basis of Touré's dispute with Piers Morgan
• Moving mentions of Mitt Romney and the phrase "racial coding" to earlier in the sentence, while moving use of the n-word back, putting it in full context
• Explaining circumstances in which Touré used the phrase "power of whiteness", and quoting just the key part of his apology

Full text, and markup:

Touré criticized and debated with Piers Morgan over the latter's March 2012 interview with George Zimmerman's brother, particularly over what Touré saw as Morgan's lack of response to Robert Zimmerman's problematic replies. In August 2012, as part of a discussion on The Cycle, Touré said that Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney engaged in racial coding by calling President Barack Obama "angry", and referred to this as "niggerization". He apologized for using the word the next day.

References

1. ^ Allison Samuels (31 March 2012). "Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
2. Tommy Christopher (30 March 2012). "Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud". Mediaite. Retrieved 15 October 2014.
3. Erik Wemple (17 August 2012). "MSNBC's Touré apologizes for 'niggerization' remark". The Washington Post. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
4. Jessica Chasmar (27 May 2014). "MSNBC's Touré says 'power of whiteness' benefited Holocaust survivors". The Washington Times. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
5. Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC Host Apologizes for ‘Power of Whiteness’ Tweet About Holocaust". MSNBC.

I still think this is rather more than is really necessary—the Morgan debate especially seems not that interesting—but so long as there is support to retain this level of detail, I think the version I've offered is both more efficient and more informative. What do either of you think? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 18:45, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm fine with that - it's better prose. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:17, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

I find the first paragraph quite acceptable, and the second paragraph mostly so. For the latter I'd suggest the following minor tweaks:

In May 2014, Touré was criticized for his response to a tweet comparing the African American experience following slavery with the experience of Holocaust survivors in the U.S. following World War II. A blogger from the website Yo, Dat's Racis'!! tweeted at Touré, "My family survived a concentration camp, came to the US w/ nothing, LEGALLY, and made it work" and Touré replied that this was accomplished due to "the power of whiteness." This drew criticism from the Simon Wiesenthal Center. Touré apologized for his comment, saying he had "used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong."

Just a few minor tweaks. TuckerResearch (talk) 04:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Glad to hear you're both generally happy with the wording I proposed. TuckerResearch, I'm on the fence about one of the changes that you suggested above, specifically adding "that this was accomplished due to" before the quote of Touré's tweet. Here's my concern: the full extent of Touré's reply was "the power of whiteness", but saying he "replied that this was accomplished due to 'the power of whiteness'" makes it sound like there was more to the reply that isn't quoted here. Do you see what I mean? I think due to that, I would prefer to just say "and Touré replied, 'the power of whiteness'." What do you think? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 15:20, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

Okay, I get your trepidation that it seems there was more to Touré's reply, but I worry that without some sort of editorial emendation, the reply might seem like a non sequitur. I don't want to make the paragraph any longer. So how about this (it also removes the passive voice):

In May 2014, Touré drew criticism from the Simon Wiesenthal Center for implying Holocaust succeeded in the U.S. after the Second World War because they were white. A blogger from the website Yo, Dat's Racis'!! tweeted at Touré, "My family survived a concentration camp, came to the US w/ nothing, LEGALLY, and made it work" and Touré replied, "the power of whiteness." Touré later apologized for his comment, saying he had "used a shorthand that was insensitive and wrong."

Cool? (And it's even shorter.) TuckerResearch (talk) 03:07, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

To be honest, I think I prefer your previous version here, TuckerResearch. The newer proposed wording now doesn't mention the fact that the Twitter conversation was about comparing the experience of post-slavery African Americans with Holocaust survivor immigrants in the U.S. Without mentioning that this comparison was being made, it now sounds like Touré was included on a conversation about Holocaust survivors and out of the blue decided to bring race into it. While I feel like it would be better to just quote Touré's tweet without editorialization, and allow readers to form their own conclusions, I'm open to compromise and would be OK with your previous wording. As I said before, I'm on the fence about it, but overall I prefer it to your most recent suggestion. Does that work for you? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:02, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

To be frank, User:WWB_Too, Touré did decide "out of the blue" to "bring race into it." But, I also understand your concern that Touré was trying to instigate a wider discussion about race relations post-1945. Thus, how about this version, now combined into one short paragraph instead of two, a few minor word changes, and a lengthier quotation from Touré to show he was trying to open up a discussion on race, viz.:

References

1. Allison Samuels (31 March 2012). "Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
2. Tommy Christopher (30 March 2012). "Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud". Mediaite. Retrieved 15 October 2014.
3. Erik Wemple (17 August 2012). "MSNBC's Touré apologizes for 'niggerization' remark". The Washington Post. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
4. Jessica Chasmar (27 May 2014). "MSNBC's Touré says 'power of whiteness' benefited Holocaust survivors". The Washington Times. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
5. Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC Host Apologizes for ‘Power of Whiteness’ Tweet About Holocaust". MSNBC.

What do you think of this? Which version do other editors (User:Anthonyhcole?) think is best? (Although, right now, this seems like a three-person conversation... which is disappointing.) (And, I thank you again for being a patient and thoughtful editor. So very often such debates on Misplaced Pages turn vitriolic. So, this sort of restores my faith in mankind.) TuckerResearch (talk) 19:36, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

PS - Added word "survivors" to suggestion above - otherwise it made no sense! Oops! TuckerResearch (talk) 19:42, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Seems OK. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 20:59, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Since Anthonyhcole gave his thumbs up, I went ahead and edited the section on Touré's page. I hope you don't think that's too drastic? I think the article looks better now, and is not so needlessly long or critical. I thank you both, WWB_Too and Anthonyhcole , for going through this process. I am serious, however, that more should be added about his writing career. TuckerResearch (talk) 00:17, 15 November 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been traveling since the weekend. I'm fine with the wording you added TuckerResearch; I would have loved to get this shorter but I understand why you prefer a little more verbiage here. Also, I completely agree about there needing to be more on his career. I'm working on that now (as well as a new photo that I've uploaded to Commons and am waiting for the copyright release to be confirmed by OTRS).

In the meantime, Anthonyhcole I wonder if you have any thoughts on the inclusion of the coverage and criticism of The Fire This Time from The Daily Caller, as discussed above? Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:34, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

Archives?

Where are the archives for this talk page? --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 01:36, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

I found the archives and got them here. The links to them are posted above. TuckerResearch (talk) 18:44, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Updates and new material

Although I'm still hoping to discuss further the inclusion of the criticism from The Daily Caller, in the meantime I'd like to move on with proposing some constructive updates and additions to the article. I'll put the simple ones up front:

• In the lede, there's a few tweaks needed to bring this up to date:

1. I suggest replacing the second and third sentences with the following: "As of November 2014, he is co-host of The Cycle on MSNBC. He was also the host of Fuse's Hiphop Shop and On the Record and a contributor to MSNBC's The Dylan Ratigan Show. He serves on the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Nominating Committee."
2. The sentence about Tisch should read "taught" not "teaches", as he is no longer teaching there

• Under Early life:

1. The following citation can be added to support the sentence about Emory, currently marked cite needed: <ref name="AfraidGoogle">{{cite web |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ZZwb3eJuLw4C&pg=PR19&lpg=PR19&dq=toure+emory+drop+out&source=bl&ots=pe2Z_M32K7&sig=COJh6q8md_6DLtQXyfKZMLyNAgA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=UiBqVJ33EYSWyAS39oG4Ag&ved=0CCQQ6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=toure%20emory%20drop%20out&f=false |title=Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness? |author=Toure |date= |work= |publisher=Simon & Shuster |accessdate=17 November 2014}}</ref>
2. I also have a citation for the sentence regarding Columbia University, although here I'd suggest a slight change in wording: "In 1996, he attended Columbia University's MFA writing program for one year." Citation: <ref name="Jones02">{{cite news |title=BIBR spotlight: Toure: a charmed life |author=Mondella S. Jones |url=http://www.thefreelibrary.com/BIBR+spotlight%3A+Toure%3A+a+charmed+life.-a089148215 |work=Black Issues Book Review |date=1 July 2002 |accessdate=26 November 2014}}</ref>

I'd also like to propose expanding the information in the Career section to include more about Touré's books and his television roles. Since this is a little more involved, I'll share my full draft rather than bulleting out individual changes. Please note that I've included the current wording in the article regarding The Daily Caller criticism, and the controversies from the Television section. The only adjustment I'm suggesting here compared to the current wording for the former, is to describe The Fire This Time as a "student newspaper", not a "black student newspaper".

Here's the draft I'm proposing, with unformatted markup in case there's consensus to move it over:

While a student at Emory University, Touré founded the student newspaper, The Fire This Time in 1990. In an interview with The Daily Caller in 2013, Touré said The Fire This Time had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building." The Daily Caller's article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that The Fire This Time was a "militant" African-American publication.

Touré began his writing career as an intern at Rolling Stone in 1992. He has contributed essays and articles to Rolling Stone, Essence,. The New Yorker, The New York Times, Playboy, Time, The Village Voice, Vibe, The Washington Post and Ebony.

His Rolling Stone article about Dale Earnhardt Jr., "Kurt is My Co-Pilot", was included in The Best American Sports Writing 2001. His writing has also been featured in the collections Best American Essays of 1999, the Da Capo Best Music Writing of 2004 and Best American Erotica of 2004.

Touré has written five books. In 2002, his short story collection Portable Promised Land was published. He also wrote a novel, Soul City, published in 2004, which was set in an an African-American utopia, according to The Washington Post. His 2006 essay collection “Never Drank the Kool-Aid,” included the personal essay "What's Inside You, Brother?", which was considered for inclusion in Houghton Mifflin Harcourt's "Best American Essays of 1996". In 2012, Touré published Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness?: What it Means to be Black Now, a book on race in modern America based on a collection of interviews Touré conducted with over 100 prominent African-American icons. Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness? was named one of the most influential books of 2011 by both The New York Times and The Washington Post, and the book earned Touré a nomination for an NAACP Image Award for Outstanding Literary Work in Non-Fiction. In 2013, Touré published I Would Die 4 U: Why Prince Became an Icon, a biography of Prince that discusses the pop artist's works and legacy in a religious context. The book is based on a series of lectures Touré delivered at Harvard University in 2012.

In 2002, Touré appeared opposite Paula Zahn on CNN's American Morning and afterward was featured three times a week on a panel called 90-Second Pop. Touré was subsequently hired as CNN's first pop culture correspondent. In 2005, BET hired Touré to cover BET News and Public Affairs programming.

He also hosted the series Community Surface on Tennis Channel and MTV's Spoke N' Heard, and was interviewed on the life of Eminem for the rapper's A&E Biography episode. In 2008, he hosted the reality show I'll Try Anything Once, where he tried a variety of jobs and activities, including rodeo clowning and lumberjacking.

He currently hosts The Cycle on MSNBC with former congressional candidate Krystal Ball, moderate Republican Abby Huntsman, and The Nation correspondent Ari Melber. The Cycle's key demographic is made up of Generation X viewers, and its success in this age bracket has been attributed to the engaging personalities of its unusually young hosts. Touré often introduces race theory into political discussion on the show.

References

1. Loftus, Mary J. (Autumn 2009). "News makers". Emory Magazine. Retrieved 25 April 2012.
2. ^ Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan (April 9, 2013). "MSNBC's Touré founded militant anti-white student paper". The Daily Caller.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link)
3. ^ Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). "Report: MSNBC Host Touré Founded a 'Militant Anti-White Student Newspaper'". Yahoo! News.
4. Kam Williams. "Tora! Tora! Touré!: The "Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness?" Interview". Pittsburgh Urban Media. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
5. Petey E. Menz (27 March 2012). "Critic Toure Reveals Prince's Religious Roots". The Harvard Crimson. Retrieved 15 October 2014.
6. Touré (2006). "The Book of Jay". Rolling Stone online. Archived from the original on 2006. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |archivedate= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
7. "Adele Opens Up About Her Inspirations, Looks and Stage Fright in New Rolling Stone Cover Story". Rolling Stone. April 13, 2011. Retrieved July 5, 2012.
8. ^ Mattei, Al. "Book Review: Visionary Choice Mark 2001 Edition". www.topofthecircle.com. Retrieved May 7, 2012.
9. Lewis, Miles Marshall (August 25, 2011). "It Takes a Nation of Millions to Hold Us Black". The Huffington Post.
10. Touré (March 23, 2014). "Black and White on Martha's Vineyard". New York magazine.
11. Touré (August 5, 2011). "Preconceptions". The New York Times.
12. Touré (April 2014). "How the Central Park Five Still Haunt America". Playboy. pp 54-58, 126-127
13. Touré (April 11, 2013). "Viewpoint: You Can't Be An 'Accidental' Racist". Time.
14. Touré (January 24, 2006}. "Platinum Reputation". The Village Voice.
15. Toure (22 Aug 2014). "Black America and the burden of the perfect victim". The Washington Post. Retrieved 20 October 2014.
16. "Culture Critic Touré to Discuss 'Post-Blackness,' Dec. 1". Duke University. November 28, 2011.
17. "Best American Sports Writing Index 1991-2012". indiepro.com. Retrieved May 7, 2012.
18. "Touré Speaker Bureau Bio". Simon & Schuester. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
19. Abby West (3 September 2004). "Soul City". Entertainment Weekly. Retrieved 19 November 2014.
20. Patrick Neate (20 October 2004). "Over the Top in a Hip-Hop World". Book Report. Washington Post. Retrieved 19 November 2014.
21. "Never Drank the Kool-Aid". Picador. Kirkus Reviews. 1 March 2006. Retrieved 17 November 2014.
22. Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. "Touré Tackles Prince in New Book, Finds Jesus, Discovers They're One in the Same ". The Village Voice.
23. Patterson, Orlando (September 22, 2011). "The Post-Black Condition". The New York Times.
24. "Touré". Time. Retrieved August 29, 2014.
25. John Finn (27 August 2013). "Wooster Forum to Examine the Complexity of Race". The College of Wooster. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
26. Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. "Touré Tackles Prince in New Book, Finds Jesus, Discovers They're One in the Same ". The Village Voice.
27. "Does 'The Rising' touch the sky?". American Morning. CNN. 30 July 2002. Retrieved 20 October 2014.
28. Kam Williams. "Tora! Tora! Touré!: The "Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness?" Interview". Pittsburgh Urban Media. Retrieved 3 November 2014.
29. Evette Dionne. "The Love-Hate Complexities of Touré and What it Teaches Us About Blackness". Clutch Magazine. Retrieved 3 November 2014.
30. "Pop Culture Personality Toure Headed to BET News" (Press release). PR Newswire. 4 November 2005. Retrieved 20 October 2014.
31. "Community Surface". Tennis Channel. Retrieved April 12, 2013.
32. "Brooklyn Writers for Brooklyn Readers - Toure". Brooklyn Public Library. 30 November 2005. Retrieved 20 October 2014.
33. Biography: Eminem. A&E
34. April MacIntyre (2008). "Review and Interview: 'I'll Try Anything Once' on Treasure HD a no miss". Smallscreen Reviews. M&C. Retrieved 19 November 2014.
35. Lauerman, Kerry (June 21, 2012). "Kornacki an MSNBC host, too". Salon Magazine. Salon Media Group. Retrieved June 22, 2012.
36. Mary Nissenson (29 March 2013). "How MSNBC's 'The Cycle' Won Me Over". The Wrap. Retrieved 20 October 2014.
37. Noah Rothman (10 October 2012). "Why MSNBC's The Cycle Will Shape the Future of Cable News". Mediaite. Retrieved 24 November 2014.
38. Allison Samuels (31 March 2012). "Piers Morgan Vs. Touré: How the CNN Host Blew It". The Daily Beast. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
39. Tommy Christopher (30 March 2012). "Update: Piers Morgan Books MSNBC's Touré in Real Time to Settle Twitter Feud". Mediaite. Retrieved 15 October 2014.
40. Erik Wemple (17 August 2012). "MSNBC's Touré apologizes for 'niggerization' remark". The Washington Post. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
41. Jessica Chasmar (27 May 2014). "MSNBC's Touré says 'power of whiteness' benefited Holocaust survivors". The Washington Times. Retrieved 10 October 2014.
42. Ross, L.A. (May 27, 2014). "MSNBC Host Apologizes for ‘Power of Whiteness’ Tweet About Holocaust". MSNBC.

==Career==
===Writing career===
While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/>

Touré began his writing career as an intern at '']'' in 1992.<ref name="Williams">{{cite news |title=Tora! Tora! Touré!: The “Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?” Interview |author=Kam Williams |url=http://www.pittsburghurbanmedia.com/Tora-Tora-Tour-The-Whos-Afraid-of-Post-Blackness-Interview-/ |work=Pittsburgh Urban Media |date= |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> He has contributed essays and articles to ''Rolling Stone'',<ref name="Crimson12">{{cite news |title=Critic Toure Reveals Prince's Religious Roots |author=Petey E. Menz |url=http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/3/27/toure-prince-lectures/ |work=The Harvard Crimson |date=27 March 2012 |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/8898314 |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20060526041646/http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/8898314/the_book_of_jay |archivedate=2006 |year=2006 |title=The Book of Jay |publisher='']'' online |author=Touré}}</ref><ref>{{cite news| url=http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/adele-opens-up-about-her-inspirations-looks-and-stage-fright-in-new-rolling-stone-cover-story-20110413 | title=Adele Opens Up About Her Inspirations, Looks and Stage Fright in New Rolling Stone Cover Story|newspaper=]| date=April 13, 2011|accessdate=July 5, 2012}}</ref><ref name=TopCircle>{{cite web|last=Mattei|first=Al|title=Book Review: Visionary Choice Mark 2001 Edition|url=http://www.topofthecircle.com/BEST2001.html|publisher=www.topofthecircle.com|accessdate=May 7, 2012}}</ref> '']'',.<ref>Lewis, Miles Marshall (August 25, 2011). . ''The Huffington Post''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (March 23, 2014). . '']'' magazine.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (August 5, 2011). . '']''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (April 2014). "How the Central Park Five Still Haunt America". '']''. pp 54-58, 126-127</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (April 11, 2013). . ''Time''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (January 24, 2006}. . '']''.</ref> '']'', '']''<ref name="Post">{{cite news |title=Black America and the burden of the perfect victim |author=Toure |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/black-america-and-the-burden-of-the-perfect-victim/2014/08/22/30318ec2-27d1-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html |work=The Washington Post |date=22 Aug 2014 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and '']''.<ref>. ]. November 28, 2011.</ref>

His ''Rolling Stone'' article about ], "Kurt is My Co-Pilot", was included in ''The Best American Sports Writing 2001''.<ref name=TopCircle/><ref>{{cite web|title=Best American Sports Writing Index 1991-2012|url=http://indiepro.com/glenn/best-american-sports-writing-index-1991-2010/|publisher=indiepro.com|accessdate=May 7, 2012}}</ref> His writing has also been featured in the collections ''Best American Essays of 1999'', the ''Da Capo Best Music Writing of 2004'' and ''Best American Erotica of 2004''.<ref name="SimonSchu">{{cite web |url=http://www.simonspeakers.com/Touré |title=Touré Speaker Bureau Bio |author= |date= |work= |publisher=Simon & Schuester |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref>

Touré has written five books. In 2002, his short story collection ''Portable Promised Land'' was published. He also wrote a novel, ''Soul City'', published in 2004,<ref name="West04">{{cite web |url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,688726,00.html |title=Soul City |author=Abby West |date=3 September 2004 |work= |publisher=Entertainment Weekly |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref> which was set in an an African-American utopia, according to ''The Washington Post''.<ref name="WP04">{{cite web |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46574-2004Oct19.html |title=Over the Top in a Hip-Hop World |author=Patrick Neate |date=20 October 2004 |work=Book Report |publisher=Washington Post |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref> His 2006 essay collection “Never Drank the Kool-Aid,” included the personal essay "What's Inside You, Brother?", which was considered for inclusion in ]'s "Best American Essays of 1996".<ref name="Kirkus">{{cite web |url=https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/toure/never-drank-the-kool-aid/ |title=Never Drank the Kool-Aid |author= |date=1 March 2006 |work=Picador |publisher=Kirkus Reviews |accessdate=17 November 2014}}</ref> In 2012, Touré published ''Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness?: What it Means to be Black Now'', a book on race in modern America based on a collection of interviews Touré conducted with over 100 prominent African-American icons.<ref>Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. . ''The Village Voice''.</ref><ref>Patterson, Orlando (September 22, 2011). . ''The New York Times''.</ref><ref>. '']''. Retrieved August 29, 2014.</ref> ''Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?'' was named one of the most influential books of 2011 by both '']'' and '']'', and the book earned Touré a nomination for an ] Image Award for Outstanding Literary Work in Non-Fiction.<ref name="Finn">{{cite news |title=Wooster Forum to Examine the Complexity of Race |author=John Finn |url=http://www.wooster.edu/news/releases/2013/august/forum-overview/ |work=The College of Wooster |date=27 August 2013 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> In 2013, Touré published ''I Would Die 4 U: Why Prince Became an Icon'', a biography of ] that discusses the pop artist's works and legacy in a religious context. The book is based on a series of lectures Touré delivered at ] in 2012.<ref>Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. . ''The Village Voice''.</ref>

===Television===

] at the 2009 ].]]

In 2002, Touré appeared opposite Paula Zahn on ]'s '']''<ref name="CNN02">{{cite web |url=http://edition.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/29/rising.cnna/index.html |title=Does 'The Rising' touch the sky? |author= |date=30 July 2002 |work=American Morning |publisher=CNN |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and afterward was featured three times a week on a panel called 90-Second Pop.<ref name="Pittsburgh">{{cite web |url=http://www.pittsburghurbanmedia.com/Tora-Tora-Tour-The-Whos-Afraid-of-Post-Blackness-Interview-/ |title=Tora! Tora! Touré!: The “Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?” Interview |author=Kam Williams |date= |work= |publisher=Pittsburgh Urban Media |accessdate=3 November 2014}}</ref> Touré was subsequently hired as CNN's first pop culture correspondent.<ref name="Clutch">{{cite news |title=The Love-Hate Complexities of Touré and What it Teaches Us About Blackness |author=Evette Dionne |url=http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2012/10/the-love-hate-complexities-of-toure-and-what-it-teaches-us-about-blackness/ |work=Clutch Magazine |date= |accessdate=3 November 2014}}</ref> In 2005, ] hired Touré to cover BET News and Public Affairs programming.<ref name="UPI">{{cite press release |title=Pop Culture Personality Toure Headed to BET News |url=http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pop-culture-personality-toure-headed-to-bet-news-55365662.html |publisher=PR Newswire |date=4 November 2005 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref>

He also hosted the series ''Community Surface'' on ]<ref>. ]. Retrieved April 12, 2013.</ref> and MTV's ''Spoke N' Heard'',<ref name="MTV2">{{cite web |url=http://www.bklynlibrary.org/media/press/brooklyn-writers-brooklyn-readers-toure |title=Brooklyn Writers for Brooklyn Readers - Toure |author= |date=30 November 2005 |work= |publisher=Brooklyn Public Library |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and was interviewed on the life of ] for the rapper's '']'' episode.<ref>'']: Eminem''. ]</ref> In 2008, he hosted the reality show ''I'll Try Anything Once'', where he tried a variety of jobs and activities, including rodeo clowning and lumberjacking.<ref name="Macintyre08">{{cite web |url=http://www.monstersandcritics.com/smallscreen/reviews/article_1391328.php/Review_and_Interview_Ill_Try_Anything_Once_on_Treasure_HD_a_no_miss |title=Review and Interview: 'I'll Try Anything Once' on Treasure HD a no miss |author=April MacIntyre |date=2008 |work=Smallscreen Reviews |publisher=M&C |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref>

He currently hosts '']'' on MSNBC with former congressional candidate ], moderate Republican ], and ] correspondent ].<ref name="Lauerman06212012">{{cite web|url=http://www.salon.com/2012/06/21/steve_kornacki_msnbc_host/|title=Kornacki an MSNBC host, too|last=Lauerman|first=Kerry|date=June 21, 2012|work=Salon Magazine|publisher=Salon Media Group|accessdate=June 22, 2012}}</ref> ''The Cycle'''s key demographic is made up of ] viewers, and its success in this age bracket has been attributed to the engaging personalities of its unusually young hosts.<ref name="Wrap13">{{cite news |title=How MSNBC's ‘The Cycle’ Won Me Over |author=Mary Nissenson |url=http://www.thewrap.com/tv/blog-post/draft-hollyblog-video-83081/ |work=The Wrap |date=29 March 2013 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> Touré often introduces race theory into political discussion on the show.<ref name="Rothman12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/why-msnbcs-the-cycle-will-shape-the-future-of-cable-news/ |title=Why MSNBC's The Cycle Will Shape the Future of Cable News |author=Noah Rothman |date=10 October 2012 |work= |publisher=Mediaite |accessdate=24 November 2014}}</ref>

Anthonyhcole and TuckerResearch: since you've both mentioned above that it would be good to expand this article with more information about Touré, I wonder if you'd be interested in reviewing my drafted changes and making them if they look good? Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:46, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

It all looks peachy to me. TuckerResearch (talk) 00:22, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Great to hear! Let's see if Anthonyhcole agrees. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 01:12, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

That all looks good to me. While you're at it, would you consider replacing the full stop with a colon here: "...were white. A blog..."? The second sentence beginning with "A blog..." clarifies, elaborates on the first and for me the colon makes that clear from the get-go (though it becomes clear as you read on). No big deal.

Also, in the book citation you can cut off the last bits of the url, leaving only http://books.google.com/books?id=ZZwb3eJuLw4C&pg=PR19 . That will eliminate the yellow highlighting when readers click through to the Google preview. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 13:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

Great! That edit sounds fine to me, Anthonyhcole. Here's the updated markup:

==Career==
===Writing career===
While a student at ], Touré founded the student newspaper, ''The Fire This Time'' in 1990.<ref name="Emory09">{{cite web|author=Loftus, Mary J.|url=http://www.emory.edu/EMORY_MAGAZINE/2009/autumn/black-star.html|work=Emory Magazine|title= News makers|date=Autumn 2009|accessdate=25 April 2012}}</ref> In an interview with ''The Daily Caller'' in 2013, Touré said ''The Fire This Time'' had been "an important black voice on campus" and "a form of community building."<ref name="DailyCaller">{{cite web|author=Johnson, Charles C.; Girdusky, Ryan|title=MSNBC’s Touré founded militant anti-white student paper|url=http://dailycaller.com/2013/04/09/msnbcs-Touré-founded-militant-anti-white-student-paper/|publisher=] |date=April 9, 2013}}</ref><ref name=Yahoo!News>Ritz, Eric (April 9, 2013). . ].</ref> ''The Daily Caller'''s article on Touré and his college years was critical, claiming that ''The Fire This Time'' was a "militant" African-American publication.<ref name=DailyCaller/><ref name=Yahoo!News/>

Touré began his writing career as an intern at '']'' in 1992.<ref name="Williams">{{cite news |title=Tora! Tora! Touré!: The “Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?” Interview |author=Kam Williams |url=http://www.pittsburghurbanmedia.com/Tora-Tora-Tour-The-Whos-Afraid-of-Post-Blackness-Interview-/ |work=Pittsburgh Urban Media |date= |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> He has contributed essays and articles to ''Rolling Stone'',<ref name="Crimson12">{{cite news |title=Critic Toure Reveals Prince's Religious Roots |author=Petey E. Menz |url=http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2012/3/27/toure-prince-lectures/ |work=The Harvard Crimson |date=27 March 2012 |accessdate=15 October 2014}}</ref><ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/8898314 |archiveurl=http://web.archive.org/web/20060526041646/http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/8898314/the_book_of_jay |archivedate=2006 |year=2006 |title=The Book of Jay |publisher='']'' online |author=Touré}}</ref><ref>{{cite news| url=http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/adele-opens-up-about-her-inspirations-looks-and-stage-fright-in-new-rolling-stone-cover-story-20110413 | title=Adele Opens Up About Her Inspirations, Looks and Stage Fright in New Rolling Stone Cover Story|newspaper=]| date=April 13, 2011|accessdate=July 5, 2012}}</ref><ref name=TopCircle>{{cite web|last=Mattei|first=Al|title=Book Review: Visionary Choice Mark 2001 Edition|url=http://www.topofthecircle.com/BEST2001.html|publisher=www.topofthecircle.com|accessdate=May 7, 2012}}</ref> '']'',.<ref>Lewis, Miles Marshall (August 25, 2011). . ''The Huffington Post''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (March 23, 2014). . '']'' magazine.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (August 5, 2011). . '']''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (April 2014). "How the Central Park Five Still Haunt America". '']''. pp 54-58, 126-127</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (April 11, 2013). . ''Time''.</ref> '']'',<ref>Touré (January 24, 2006}. . '']''.</ref> '']'', '']''<ref name="Post">{{cite news |title=Black America and the burden of the perfect victim |author=Toure |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/black-america-and-the-burden-of-the-perfect-victim/2014/08/22/30318ec2-27d1-11e4-958c-268a320a60ce_story.html |work=The Washington Post |date=22 Aug 2014 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and '']''.<ref>. ]. November 28, 2011.</ref>

His ''Rolling Stone'' article about ], "Kurt is My Co-Pilot", was included in ''The Best American Sports Writing 2001''.<ref name=TopCircle/><ref>{{cite web|title=Best American Sports Writing Index 1991-2012|url=http://indiepro.com/glenn/best-american-sports-writing-index-1991-2010/|publisher=indiepro.com|accessdate=May 7, 2012}}</ref> His writing has also been featured in the collections ''Best American Essays of 1999'', the ''Da Capo Best Music Writing of 2004'' and ''Best American Erotica of 2004''.<ref name="SimonSchu">{{cite web |url=http://www.simonspeakers.com/Touré |title=Touré Speaker Bureau Bio |author= |date= |work= |publisher=Simon & Schuester |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref>

Touré has written five books. In 2002, his short story collection ''Portable Promised Land'' was published. He also wrote a novel, ''Soul City'', published in 2004,<ref name="West04">{{cite web |url=http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,688726,00.html |title=Soul City |author=Abby West |date=3 September 2004 |work= |publisher=Entertainment Weekly |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref> which was set in an an African-American utopia, according to ''The Washington Post''.<ref name="WP04">{{cite web |url=http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46574-2004Oct19.html |title=Over the Top in a Hip-Hop World |author=Patrick Neate |date=20 October 2004 |work=Book Report |publisher=Washington Post |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref> His 2006 essay collection “Never Drank the Kool-Aid,” included the personal essay "What's Inside You, Brother?", which was considered for inclusion in ]'s "Best American Essays of 1996".<ref name="Kirkus">{{cite web |url=https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-reviews/toure/never-drank-the-kool-aid/ |title=Never Drank the Kool-Aid |author= |date=1 March 2006 |work=Picador |publisher=Kirkus Reviews |accessdate=17 November 2014}}</ref> In 2012, Touré published ''Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness?: What it Means to be Black Now'', a book on race in modern America based on a collection of interviews Touré conducted with over 100 prominent African-American icons.<ref>Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. . ''The Village Voice''.</ref><ref>Patterson, Orlando (September 22, 2011). . ''The New York Times''.</ref><ref>. '']''. Retrieved August 29, 2014.</ref> ''Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?'' was named one of the most influential books of 2011 by both '']'' and '']'', and the book earned Touré a nomination for an ] Image Award for Outstanding Literary Work in Non-Fiction.<ref name="Finn">{{cite news |title=Wooster Forum to Examine the Complexity of Race |author=John Finn |url=http://www.wooster.edu/news/releases/2013/august/forum-overview/ |work=The College of Wooster |date=27 August 2013 |accessdate=10 October 2014}}</ref> In 2013, Touré published ''I Would Die 4 U: Why Prince Became an Icon'', a biography of ] that discusses the pop artist's works and legacy in a religious context. The book is based on a series of lectures Touré delivered at ] in 2012.<ref>Pierre, Brittny (March 7, 2013. . ''The Village Voice''.</ref>

===Television===
] at the 2009 ].]]
In 2002, Touré appeared opposite Paula Zahn on ]'s '']''<ref name="CNN02">{{cite web |url=http://edition.cnn.com/2002/SHOWBIZ/Music/07/29/rising.cnna/index.html |title=Does 'The Rising' touch the sky? |author= |date=30 July 2002 |work=American Morning |publisher=CNN |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and afterward was featured three times a week on a panel called 90-Second Pop.<ref name="Pittsburgh">{{cite web |url=http://www.pittsburghurbanmedia.com/Tora-Tora-Tour-The-Whos-Afraid-of-Post-Blackness-Interview-/ |title=Tora! Tora! Touré!: The “Who’s Afraid of Post-Blackness?” Interview |author=Kam Williams |date= |work= |publisher=Pittsburgh Urban Media |accessdate=3 November 2014}}</ref> Touré was subsequently hired as CNN's first pop culture correspondent.<ref name="Clutch">{{cite news |title=The Love-Hate Complexities of Touré and What it Teaches Us About Blackness |author=Evette Dionne |url=http://www.clutchmagonline.com/2012/10/the-love-hate-complexities-of-toure-and-what-it-teaches-us-about-blackness/ |work=Clutch Magazine |date= |accessdate=3 November 2014}}</ref> In 2005, ] hired Touré to cover BET News and Public Affairs programming.<ref name="UPI">{{cite press release |title=Pop Culture Personality Toure Headed to BET News |url=http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/pop-culture-personality-toure-headed-to-bet-news-55365662.html |publisher=PR Newswire |date=4 November 2005 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref>

He also hosted the series ''Community Surface'' on ]<ref>. ]. Retrieved April 12, 2013.</ref> and MTV's ''Spoke N' Heard'',<ref name="MTV2">{{cite web |url=http://www.bklynlibrary.org/media/press/brooklyn-writers-brooklyn-readers-toure |title=Brooklyn Writers for Brooklyn Readers - Toure |author= |date=30 November 2005 |work= |publisher=Brooklyn Public Library |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> and was interviewed on the life of ] for the rapper's '']'' episode.<ref>'']: Eminem''. ]</ref> In 2008, he hosted the reality show ''I'll Try Anything Once'', where he tried a variety of jobs and activities, including rodeo clowning and lumberjacking.<ref name="Macintyre08">{{cite web |url=http://www.monstersandcritics.com/smallscreen/reviews/article_1391328.php/Review_and_Interview_Ill_Try_Anything_Once_on_Treasure_HD_a_no_miss |title=Review and Interview: 'I'll Try Anything Once' on Treasure HD a no miss |author=April MacIntyre |date=2008 |work=Smallscreen Reviews |publisher=M&C |accessdate=19 November 2014}}</ref>

He currently hosts '']'' on MSNBC with former congressional candidate ], moderate Republican ], and ] correspondent ].<ref name="Lauerman06212012">{{cite web|url=http://www.salon.com/2012/06/21/steve_kornacki_msnbc_host/|title=Kornacki an MSNBC host, too|last=Lauerman|first=Kerry|date=June 21, 2012|work=Salon Magazine|publisher=Salon Media Group|accessdate=June 22, 2012}}</ref> ''The Cycle'''s key demographic is made up of ] viewers, and its success in this age bracket has been attributed to the engaging personalities of its unusually young hosts.<ref name="Wrap13">{{cite news |title=How MSNBC's ‘The Cycle’ Won Me Over |author=Mary Nissenson |url=http://www.thewrap.com/tv/blog-post/draft-hollyblog-video-83081/ |work=The Wrap |date=29 March 2013 |accessdate=20 October 2014}}</ref> Touré often introduces race theory into political discussion on the show.<ref name="Rothman12">{{cite web |url=http://www.mediaite.com/tv/why-msnbcs-the-cycle-will-shape-the-future-of-cable-news/ |title=Why MSNBC's The Cycle Will Shape the Future of Cable News |author=Noah Rothman |date=10 October 2012 |work= |publisher=Mediaite |accessdate=24 November 2014}}</ref>

Here also is the updated citation for the Emory sentence—good catch. Also, I just realized I'd misspelled "Simon & Schuster"—fixed that, too: <ref name="AfraidGoogle">{{cite web |url=http://books.google.com/books?id=ZZwb3eJuLw4C&pg=PR19&lpg=PR19 |title=Who's Afraid of Post-Blackness? |author=Toure |date= |work= |publisher=Simon & Schuster |accessdate=17 November 2014}}</ref>

Would one of you be able to make the changes in the article? Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 16:53, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

I mucked it up a little, but I think I added all the proposed edits and fixed my own screw ups. I also moved a thing or two. TuckerResearch (talk) 03:25, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks so much, TuckerResearch. I did spot a few small things, if you wouldn't mind going back and fixing:

• In the introduction, He is the host of Fuse's… should be He was the host of Fuse's...
• There's a small typo: a stray period after Essence in the list of publications in Writing career
• Also, I see you've moved the line about Tisch into Writing career, but I'm not sure it fits well there, since the course he taught wasn't writing-related. Perhaps if you think it works better within the Career section, there could be an additional subsection titled Teaching or Other and it could go there? With those adjustments, this all looks great!

I also have a new photo of Touré for the infobox; the photographer has sent an email providing copyright permissions but it hasn't yet been marked as received by OTRS, so I'm assuming it would be best to wait on that.

Finally, I do want to make one final request, which might be kind of a big one: reducing the mentions of his former surname. Specifically, I'm wondering if it would be possible to remove the mention included in Early life, so that just the infobox and lead mentions remain. But I can start a new section on this page for that discussion, since it has been such a topic of debate before. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:29, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Quick note here just to say that the above issues have been fixed by TuckerResearch. WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:22, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

Conflict of Interest

I feel uncomfortable in the manner WWB_Too is participating in the editing of this article. They do not edit the article themselves due to possible conflict of interest yet they basically are editing by having other users contribute writings that they have already composed, often almost verbatim. Is this acceptable per Misplaced Pages's standards? How do we know this user "here on behalf of Touré" hasn't shared their password with Touré and is acting as a sockpuppet? What exactly is the user's "financial conflict of interest" with Touré? I think it would be proper to simply disclose it to us on this page instead of having others hunt for it.

I am wary of the conflicts of interest that develop when writing articles on living persons, particularly media figures. I have kept an eye on this article over the past few years because it has illustrated many of the problems this encyclopedia has in dealing with issues of sourcing and personal identity. I think the results of all the discussions have been respectful while honoring Misplaced Pages's core values. I am uncertain now if that is still true. Thriley (talk) 16:30, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Hi Thriley, thanks for asking, and I don't mind the scrutiny—it's a good thing overall. First, I disclosed my paid COI in my very first comment here, and more is explained on my user page. In the interests of clarity: Touré has retained me as a consultant to figure out how to solve issues with the article as he sees them. In cases where I've agreed, I've figured out what seem like workable alternatives and suggested them here.

When there's a simple fix, I'll ask for that and leave it up to others to determine the precise wording. But when it seems like there's a lot to be done, I will offer suggested drafts because the alternative is unrealistic, and would overburden volunteers. After all, there just aren't enough Misplaced Pages editors to write all the content that Misplaced Pages can and should have. Considering Misplaced Pages's expressed commitment to getting BLPs right, I can help make that happen.

By not editing mainspace, I'm following Jimbo's Bright Line, which encourages editors with a financial COI to avoid direct edits, and likewise encourages volunteers to assist. Finally, I'd suggest looking through the threads above: TuckerResearch and Anthonyhcole haven't agreed with me on everything I've suggested, and I haven't always agreed with their edits. But all things considered, it's the best process we have. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 19:35, 11 December 2014 (UTC)

Discussion of former surname

Hello again, watchers of this Talk page. As I have briefly mentioned above, I would like to start a discussion about the number of times Touré's former surname is mentioned in this article. Given that mentioning the surname at all is an issue that has been discussed at length before, I am keen to open this discussion up to editors to see if we can find consensus on how often the name is given and where.

To begin with, I should mention that Touré himself does not like his surname to be mentioned in this article at all. He does, however, understand that it is Misplaced Pages's community consensus, based on its standards and guidelines, that have led to the surname's inclusion at present. What I would like to ask on his behalf is whether its use can be limited to just one or two mentions.

At the moment, the name is shown in three places within in the article: the lead, infobox, and Early life section. Very very few sources have ever mentioned his surname. The sources used to support the surname in the article are: a press release from an obscure entertainment group, and a book review republished by the Huffington Post, but originally published on Loop21.com, which appears to no longer exist (the site is now a food blog...). These are hardly the strongest of sources on which to base three inclusions of a previous name that Touré has purposefully distanced himself from, and never used professionally.

What do editors here think about reducing mentions of the surname to just the lead and infobox? Or perhaps just within Early life? WWB Too (Talk · COI) 14:27, 16 December 2014 (UTC)

I think it's historical, factual, and encyclopedic the way it is. And I think the hard fought consensus debate need not be revisited nor stirred up again by your client. TuckerResearch (talk) 03:44, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Appreciate where you're coming from entirely, TuckerResearch. Knowing how much this means to Touré, I had to ask. I've left a note over at BLP/N to see if anyone there wants to comment. If other editors take the same view as you, I'll leave this be. Cheers, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 21:50, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

Mentions are far from excessive, and we would ill-serve readers to excise more than we have already done. Collect (talk) 14:34, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

It's not excessive. When Touré first broached the subject, he didn't want his last name mentioned at all since he not only doesn't use it but (one gathers) has active enmity to everything it represents, similar to how Malcolm Little abjured Little as his "slave name" and renamed himself Malcolm X. Since he asked very nicely, and since he had a reasonable point, and since his last name was scarcely published anywhere (although it was in a few places) I supported his request.

But the point was lost. And since the horse is out the door and his last name is going to be in the article, there's little to be gained by restricting ourselves much. It's not like we're going "Neblet! Neblet! Neblet!" or trying to deliberately annoy him.

Since he's hired a PR rep to represent him here -- something I'm not too fond of, although for BLPs I'm willing to bend somewhat in some cases -- I'm not well-disposed personally toward him as I formerly was. My advice in a situation like would be to advise the agent to take his client aside and explain to him that he's more likely to get ahead in life -- including getting good press -- by concentrating on continuing to learn and grow as a writer and thinker than by worrying about the details of his Misplaced Pages article to the point of hiring a professional to work it. Just saying. Herostratus (talk) 21:41, 24 December 2014 (UTC)

I appreciate the time you've taken to comment, Herostratus, Collect, and TuckerResearch. Figured I had to ask, but all of your points are taken well, and I will leave this alone. Best, WWB Too (Talk · COI) 13:57, 26 December 2014 (UTC)

Stance on Taxes

Why was this censored? They are both factual and newsworthy.

On January 21st, 2014 Touré mentioned in a Tweet that tax-avoidance is one of the things that has fueled inequality more than hard work.

Touré has nearly $60,000 in tax liens due to unpaid taxes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CPA Mann (talk • contribs) 20:24, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

1. https://twitter.com/toure/status/425619110836580352
2. http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/add-toure-to-growing-list-of-msnbc-hosts-with-tax-issues/261176
3. http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/apr/22/toure-neblett-msnbc-host-owes-nearly-60k-in-taxes-/
4. http://www.adweek.com/tvnewser/add-toure-to-growing-list-of-msnbc-hosts-with-tax-issues/261176

Well, for starters, claiming that info is being "censored" is not a good way to start off the discussion. It's inflammatory and untrue: I redacted your contribution, but I am not an agent of any government or other entity with police powers and so I am not able to censor anything.

Next, please read WP:BLP and WP:BRD, and then we perhaps we can have a reasonable discussion. Per WP:BLP you should not continue to insist on inserting the material; this is looked on rather poorly. Convince us first, or let's reach some compromise, or whatever.

Now on to the merits. Putting two facts together like this is absolutely and totally the main and core reason why original research and synthesis is proscribed (see WP:OR. You, I, and everyone else reading this knows what you are trying to do: you are trying to put into the mind of the reader "Toure is a hypocrite" without saying those words exactly.

Individual tweets that a person makes are quite simply not notable. The Washington Times is not a good source for contentious political material. Twitter is a primary source. Adweek, not familiar with that one.

Whether this is helpful for the reader in understanding the subject I don't know, but I'm not willing to take those sources as sufficiently notable and fairminded to convince me that this is something we want to have in the article, especial considering that the person is alive.

I don't want to edit war with you over this, but this material needs to be removed. You'd be the best person do that I think. Read WP:BRD and I think you'll see your way to clear to doing that. After that, I've stated my case. Refute it to the satisfaction of me and other people watching this page and we can take it from there. Herostratus (talk) 23:19, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Not having recieved the courtesy of a reply, I've rolled back the material. Herostratus (talk) 21:09, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Question, @Herostratus. I know I just thanked you for your last edit (the rollback) but upon reflection, I do wonder about "'The Washington Times' is not a good source for contentious political material". Is the same true of The Washington Post or Salon.com? I certainly agree about using Twitter and Facebook, which are far from reliable, in my opinion. Quis separabit? 22:14, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Well it's a difficult question, and there are basically two takes on that. One is that there are publications on the "left" (The Nation, Mother Jones, the Washington Monthly, and so forth) which are basically unreliable for most contentious statements involving politics because they are inherently biased and prone to cherry-pick their facts at the least, and there are publications on the "right" (the National Review, the Washington Times, Reason, and so forth) which are also basically unreliable for most contentious statements involving politics because they are inherently biased and prone to cherry-pick their facts at the least, and then there are high-end, well-regarded "centrist" or "moderate" publications which have good fact-checking operations and no particular bias, such as the New York Times, Washington Post, Atlantic magazine, Time magazine, and so forth.

The other take is that there are no such things as "centrist" or "moderate" publications, and the New York Times, Washington Post, Atlantic magazine, Time magazine and so forth are liberal publications, little different from and just as suspect as The Nation, Mother Jones, the Washington Monthly, and so forth.

It depends partly on how you define "liberal", I guess.

I would say it's definitely a false equivalence to say "You have the left-wing Washington Post and the right-wing Washington Times and they're more or less in balance." In point of fact the Washington Post is a moderate centrist establishment paper with a good reputation for fact-checking and for reporting straight news, and the Washington Times is a right-wing rag. It's owned by the Unification Church or was, operates on a relative shoestring and loses money, has not got a good reputation for accuracy, and exists essentially as a propaganda rag.

There's nothing inherently wrong with being a rag. Rags definitely have a place in society. Most rags are right-wing but the New York Daily News is sometimes cited as an example of a left-wing rag. But rags, left-wing or right, are sources we want to pretty selective and careful about using. Herostratus (talk) 23:09, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Since you bring up the New York Times, which I did not mention, in my opinion it is biased and actively partisan. I have never had anything to do directly with the Washington Times but I guess I have read it when used as a link to something else. I know it was owned by the Moonies but I don't think it is anymore. Funny about the New York Daily News (owned by Mort Zuckerman, and which also apparently loses tens of millions yearly), my father, grandfather, at least one great uncle and my brother (briefly) all worked for the paper. The NYDN was once considered right wing for New York (when the New York Post was liberal under Dorothy Schiff), and is now a weird messy editorially unstable mix amalgam of hardline populism, leftist columnists (Denis Hamill, Jim Warren, Mike Lupica), and a bipolar editorial page. But what is your opinion regarding HuffPo, Salon.com, National Review, New Republic, etc? Quis separabit? 23:54, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Well these are interesting questions and I'll address them presently. In the meantime we have a behavioral problem as the editor is continuing to restore the material. I've reverted twice so I have 5 fouls (so to speak) and have no intention of being maneuvered into being blocked, so I'm the bench. If you (Rms125a) or anyone else watching this page wants to revert again, that'd be fine as regardless of the merits of the material (an argument could certainly be made for including it) I'm opposed on principal to material being forced into articles in this manner. Herostratus (talk) 13:45, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I think this is fair. What do you think? Quis separabit? 13:52, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's useful, no. We have to keep in mind what we are trying to do here. With any article, we are trying to help the reader answer the question "What is this entity?". For Toure, the main answer is "He is a writer and media personality and so forth, and this is what he writes and says". Supporting material and secondary answers include "Here's his background" and "Here's his personal life" and "Here's some interesting things that some notable and informed people have said about his work" and stuff like that.

Whether or not he has tax liens is just not any part of that. Lots of people have tax liens. My neighbor had a tax lien: he got tired of paying property tax on some worthless property. So? What does that have to do with anything? It doesn't have anything to do with anything. People have tax liens for lots of reasons. Unless and until tax-lien-ghazi erupts into the general national conversation, I'm not seeing this as helpful to the reader. Much better would be to spend the bytes on his actual career. I think there are essays such as WP:WEIGHT which address these sort of questions also.

If we want to have a section titled "Toure is a bad person, and here's some examples" that'd be different. Stuff like this would fit in fine. Even then though I'd question the notability (which is NOT the same as reliablity) of AdWeek as being the source for this. If the Chicago Tribune or Time or CBS News &c. have not seen fit to even mention this, why should we? And anyway we don't have a section titled "Toure is a bad person, and here's some examples" and I don't think we should. Herostratus (talk) 14:22, 26 April 2015 (UTC)

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