Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:40, 27 May 2015

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Ronn Torossian article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7Auto-archiving period: 3 months

Biography C‑class

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Misplaced Pages's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography C This article has been rated as C-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

This article was nominated for deletion on 2007 November 15. The result of the discussion was keep.

This article was nominated for deletion on 3 October 2008. The result of the discussion was keep.

The contents of the 5W Public Relations page were merged into Ronn Torossian on 24 April 2014. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Individuals with a conflict of interest, particularly those representing the subject of the article, are strongly advised not to directly edit the article. See Misplaced Pages:Conflict of interest. You may request corrections or suggest content here on the Talk page for independent editors to review, or contact us if the issue is urgent.

Editorials in The Forward

http://forward.com/articles/216599/echoes-of-mccarthyism-in-smear-campaign-against-ne
Forward Forum
Echoes of McCarthyism in Smear Campaign Against New Israel Fund Backers
Do Creators of Attack Ads Have No Sense of Decency?
By Deborah Lipstadt and David Ellenson
March 13, 2015.
... Unfortunately, McCarthy’s tactics are apparently still alive and well in the Jewish community today. Ronn Torossian and Pam Geller have attacked Karen Adler, Alisa Doctoroff, Edith Everett, and Carol Zabar — among the most prominent leaders of our community — as supporters of the BDS campaign against Israel who seek to undermine the Jewish state. Torossian did so in a New York Post opinion piece and Geller’s group has sponsored bus ads repeating the charge.
--Nbauman (talk) 06:15, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

This is yet another instance of Torossian's political commentaries making waves. In the archived discussion above, which became moderately rancourous at points, there was a decision - pretty much unilateral - by User:Huon to excise all reference to Torossian's political opinions and commentaries, despite the fact that these were discussed - and continue to be discussed - in practically all the references used in this article. Perhaps it is time to reopen that issue. --Ravpapa (talk) 09:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

That's an opinion piece, not the best source for a biography of a living person, to put it mildly (we wouldn't cite Torossian's opinion pieces in the articles on Doctoroff and the others he attacks, either). I looked for better sources and came up with this news report by Haaretz. Still not quite as good as I'd like sources to be (some Haaretz activities apparently are funded by NIF, the organization Torossian attacks), but quite a bit better than the rather polemical opinion pieces published by both sides. I'd like to see more on the connection between Geller and Torossian; the best I found was this opinion piece that said Torossian sent a press release on Geller's behalf but denied that his company works for Geller. That's rather vague. If there is a better source explaining that connection, we should probably expand on that. For now I'll add a short summary of what Haaretz reports. Huon (talk) 12:01, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

Huon - Along the lines of opinion pieces not being relevant why are the opinions of torossian critics relevant along the lines of what you say. why is this relevant at all in a BLP

Atlantic Monthly writer Jeffrey Goldberg called him "the most disreputable flack in New York", particularly criticizing his representation of what Goldberg called the "lunatic fringe" of right-wing Israeli politics. Gawker’s Hamilton Nolan wrote that Torossian "embodies the public’s worst ideas about what a PR person is: loud, brash, more flash than substance, dirty, manipulative, amoral, and, in the end, not particularly bright."Richiehahahaa (talk) 00:47, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Closing discussions?

There are a few things I don't understand about this Talk page.

1. Where was the request at WP:ANRFC to close the discussion? I can't find it with several searches.
2. Someone seems to have closed the entire Talk page, not just the "Relevance of political commentary" section, including "Disclosures" and "The book". Was that the result of a decision or a coding mistake?
3. Where is the consensus to remove information in the lead about Torossian's political commentary? I can't find that either.

--Nbauman (talk) 21:32, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that's an unfortunate mix of the archiving bot and the templates; see this version of the talk page for what was closed back in 2014. The current archive bottom template was added by Ravpapa here. The request for closure also has long since been archived; it's here. If no one objects, I'll manually archive the "political commentary" discussion along with the RfC itself and un-close the sections that weren't originally closed as part of that RfC. Huon (talk) 23:28, 15 March 2015 (UTC)

I just added the {{Archive bottom}} tag which was missing in the original archive. Now it works.

I still can't find a clear statement by the admin about what the consensus was.

It seems to be entirely about the question of whether certain statements belong in the lead. It doesn't have anything to do with what belongs in the body of the entry. Right? --Nbauman (talk) 12:42, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Since the RfC was entitled "RFC: mention of commentary in lead", yes, it was only about the question of whether activities of Torossian that had not elicited one shred of third-party coverage should be discussed in the lead. Now that we have a reliable third-party source discussing Torossian's activities as a political commentator, I've added what it said to the body of the article, but given the relative insignificance of that coverage compared with the coverage of his PR work, I'd still say adding it to the lead would give it undue weight. Huon (talk) 20:22, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

A discussion can be closed with a consensus or without a consensus. I don't see a clear statement that it was closed with a consensus. Is there a statement like that? Where is it? --Nbauman (talk) 22:56, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

Still not archived, in the box at the top right of the closed discussion at the top of this talk page: " the prior discussion in the Relevance of political commentary section suggests that there was a consensus to remove information in lead about Torossian's political commentary per concerns about appropriate sourcing and the length of the lead at the time." That section originally immediately preceded the RfC and was closed along with it. Huon (talk) 00:08, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Birthdate

Can we use a primary source (like this) for his birthdate? It's not particularly controversial so I don't see a desperate need for super-rigorous sourcing. Mosmof (talk) 01:00, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

I would think a birthdate of a living person would be accepted from people who know him. I won't make a change here, but is someone being a little too overly protective here? His birthdate as it was written is real. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 22:52, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Published primary sources are acceptable for uncontroversial details. Word of mouth isn't. Huon (talk) 01:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

I just noticed that someone had the made the point of sourcing the birthdate (though that source didn't happen to verify the date so I removed it). I just wanted to make sure it wasn't controversial - you never know what is and isn't contentious in this article. But yeah, it's probably an overreaction. Mosmof (talk) 01:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Coverage of political commentary

Hi folks. I suspect a lot of you are tired of talking about this, but we really need to find some agreement here. I closed this previous RfC on the proposal to include statements about Torossian's political commentary in the lead. I determined that consensus supported not including these statement because appropriate reliable sources could not be identified and that adding such a statement was disproportionate given the length of the lead and what it covered at the time. Recently, Nbauman brought to my attention some concerns surrounding this close and coverage in the topic in the body based on the COI status of one participant and that the sources were not appropriately taken into consideration. Here are the sources that I've seen brought up or included in relation to Torossian's political commentary in one way or another:

• "The Jewish Extremists Behind "Obsession" from The Atlantic
• "Echoes of McCarthyism in Smear Campaign Against New Israel Fund Backers" from The Forward
• "'Madam Secretary' a campaign ad for Hillary Clinton 2016?" from Fox News
• "Brash P.R. Guy Grabs Clients, Ink" from the NYT
• "The Bad Boy of Buzz and His PR Problem" from Bloomberg

If there are other articles, please reply below. Reading over these briefly, some appear to do a better job of covering his political opinions than others. The questions that need to be asked as I see it, are twofold:

1. What specific statements should be made about Torossian's political commentary and should be covered in the article body? Are these statements supported by reliable sources?
2. Does Torossian's political commentary represent a significant part of his biography, and merit a statement in the lead?

Based on prior discussions, I am not interested in seeing editors here waste time tossing accusations at each other of having COIs with poor evidence rather than getting to the actual issue. Opinions offered by editors with declared COIs and SPAs will be scrutinized. The question here is one of reliable sources, coverage, and weight. Let's frame the discussion around those guidelines. I, JethroBT 22:11, 2 April 2015 (UTC)

Of those sources,

• The Atlantic is an opinion piece whose only information on Torossian's political views comes in the form of a personal discussion Torossian had with the author while a guest at someone else's house who at that time "had gone to take a telephone call". I don't think that can be considered a reliable source for anything beyond the author's opinion. No information on Torossian's political commentary beyond that personal conversation.
• The Forward is already mentioned in the article, but I don't thik it's significant enough to mention that episode in the lead.
• Fox News and Bloomberg do not provide any information whatsoever on Torossian's political positions or commentary.
• The New York Times says that Torossian "began attending political demonstrations while at Stuyvesant High School" and that he was "leading a group called the Coalition for Jewish Concerns" at age 20; no information on any more recent political views or commentary. In fact it says, Torossian no longer attends rallies ("I can't be holding a protest sign up to the cameras, and at the same time stand next to Puff Daddy as his spokesman").

There's nothing to do here. Huon (talk) 01:23, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

The thing to do is to replace the quote that you keep deleting, despite our objections. Torossian told Jeffrey Goldberg in The Atlantic, "I think we should kill a hundred Arabs or a thousand Arabs for every one Jew they kill." The interview was taped, so there's no question that Torossian said it. Torossian has never denied it in any verifiable source, and has never used the BLP process to complain about it. The Atlantic is a WP:RS, and Goldberg's column or blog, or whatever you want to call it, meets WP:RS: "Some news outlets host interactive columns they call blogs, and these may be acceptable as sources so long as the writers are professional journalists or are professionals in the field on which they write and the blog is subject to the news outlet's full editorial control." The quote was also reported in Gawker http://gawker.com/5069457/ronn-torossian-i-think-we-should-kill-a-hundred-arabs-or-a-thousand-arabs and Slate, http://www.slate.com/blogs/weigel/2014/09/17/ted_cruz_will_not_join_a_protest_of_the_death_of_klinghoffer_after_all.html which are also WP:RSs, and Torossian never challenged them either. WP:WEIGHT is defined as coverage by multiple WP:RSs, so this quote meets that standard, and is significant enough to belong in the article. I would like you to either stop deleting it, or explain here for the record why you think you have a right to delete it. I'd also like User:I JethroBT to tell me whether this is persuasive enough to convince him that it belongs in the article. --Nbauman (talk) 16:34, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing these to attention. The quote is clearly discussed outside the Atlantic piece itself. Rather than opine on these sources immediately, I would rather wait to hear what other editors have to say. I, JethroBT 19:46, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

That's a very interesting comment. "The interview was taped, so there's no question that Torossian said it." How do you know that? I just double-checked, and The Atlantic, Gawker and Slate do not say so. In fact, none of them calls the conversation an interview. Gawker and Slate only quote the The Atlantic article and don't show any evidence of having independently verified it. So unless you confirmed that detail with either Goldberg, The Atlantic or Torossian, how can you know whether the conversation was taped? Are there reliable published sources confirming this detail? To me, "At one point, when Elon had gone to take a telephone call, Torossian and I started talking I was arguing in favor of some sort of proportionality but Torossian interrupted" does not sound like a formal interview at all. Huon (talk) 21:06, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I have argued this point at length with User:Huon, in previous discussions. I repeat: just about every source used in this article mentions Torossian's political views. Some of the sources deal almost exclusively with his politics, but even those that concentrate on his PR work (like the NYT profile) mention it prominently. His published commentaries in notable publications frequently draw reactions in other notable publications. Huon's argument that Torossian's political views and activities are not a significant part of his biography is so specious that it defies rebuttal.

We know that Torossian himself has militated to remove all mention of his politics from this article. He has done so both through the minions of his many sockpuppets and through direct contact with Huon and others at the help desk. The reason for this is clear: as User:Judae1 has written, "Torossian is a PR guy" - his often inflammatory political opinions are likely to scare off potential clients.

Huon's aggressive and uncollegial editing of this article (something uncharacteristic of him in other articles), the fact that his edits consistently matched the wishes of Torossian himself, and the fact that he, by his own admission, had direct contact with Torossian on more than one occasion, suggested to me and other editors of this page at one time that Torossian had somehow "gotten to him". Subsequent edits by Huon, which were not consistent with Torossian's interests, later suggested to me that this was not true, and that Huon was simply blinded or misguided. If, at that time, I posted comments that suggested a lack of integrity on Huon's part, I apologize for that now.

This apology, however, in no way mitigates the fact that the excision of Torossian's political commentaries and views from this article constitutes a gross distortion of his persona. For a more detailed explication of this, I refer editors to Archives 2 and 3 of this talk page, and specifically to this and this discussion]. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

P.S. Huon is right and NBaum is wrong regarding the thousand Arab quote. It was not made in an on-the-record interview, and there is nothing I have seen that suggests that it was recorded. That does not call into question its veracity - it has been repeated in other reliable sources, and has not been rebutted by Torossian - on the contrary, Torossian has published views consistent with this comment in his political commentaries. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

You're right. I can't find anything to say that it was recorded. But it was reported in at least 3 WP:RSs -- The Atlantic, Gawker and Slate -- and in many more, depending on how you define WP:RS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbauman (talk • contribs) 10:09, 9 April 2015‎

@Ravpapa: But what specific statements are you suggesting we add to the article about his political commentary? Are you suggesting we add all of the details you proposed here? I, JethroBT 00:19, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

So to get to the point, I'd like to ask Huon: Since this quote has appeared in The Atlantic, Gawker, and Slate, among others, I believe it meets I, JethroBT's criteria of reliable sources, coverage, and weight. Do you agree? If not, why not? --Nbauman (talk) 23:31, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

@I JethroBT:: In response to your question, you might look at this version of the article, as edited by ]. It might, indeed, place too much emphasis on his political activities, but it is the general idea.

In any case, whatever details we include, we must put them in some kind of context. The section on the New Israel Fund campaign, as it now appears, is completely meaningless: do you (a fairly informed reader) have any idea what the New Israel Fund is, what kind of things it supports, and who in the Israeli political spectrum supports or opposes it? Without explaining those things, the section might just as well be left out. --Ravpapa (talk) 05:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Torossian's campaign against the New Israel Fund has gotten enormous coverage, so it belongs in the entry. However, the entry must also follow WP:NPOV, so the article should also include the response of the New Israel Fund and of third parties defending them. The responses have been reported by at least 2 WP:RS, Haaretz and The Forward.

To say that "he criticized the New Israel Fund" is a vague understatement that omits substantive facts to an extent that amounts to distortion. According to Haaretz, his client, Geller, identified New Israel Fund donors by name and called them "worse" than "kapos" (i.e., Nazis). Torossian personally called the New Israel Fund a "demonstrably anti-Israel group." T’ruah said that the attacks on New Israel Fund donors were "spreading lies, intimidating donors, and publicly defaming upstanding Jewish communal leaders." Torossian threatened legal action if she did not retract and apologize for that statement. To delete statements like that and replace it with a bland statement that "he criticized the New Israel Fund" would be WP:CENSOR. --09:56, 10 April 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nbauman (talk • contribs)

NEW ISRAEL FUND & MEDIA. NEW YORK TIMES - AND MANY OTHERS SAYS I MET PRIVATELY WITH DEBLASIO & POLICE. WAS THAT NOT A MUCH MUCH BIGGER STORY THAN NEW ISRAEL FUND. SO DESCRIBE DEBLASIO AND POLICE ON MY BIOGRAPHY PAGE.

• http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/nyregion/after-public-acrimony-quieter-steps-by-new-yorks-mayor-and-police-to-mend-a-rift.html?_r=0
• http://everything-pr.com/de-blasio-nypd/256512/
• http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/taxi-kingpin-brokers-talk-city-hall-nypd-sergeant-head-article-1.2090766 — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonnToro (talk • contribs) 10:18, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

GELLER IS NOT MY CLIENT. INACCURATE AS I HAVE SAID REPEATEDLY. NEW ISRAEL FUND: LIKUD SAYS THEY ARE ANTI ISRAEL. NAFTALI BENNETT THE ECONOMIC MINISTER OF ISRAEL SAYS THEY ARE ANTI ISRAEL. GELLER IS NOT MY CLIENT STOP THIS LIE.

YET, IN THIS WEEK NY POST I AM QUOTED EXTENSIVELY ON TAXIS. WHY DONT YOU POST MY VIEWPOINTS ON TAXIS WHICH ARE IN MEDIA EVERY WEEK? OR FOR EXAMPLE MY OPINION ON THE POLICE UNION I REPRESENT WHICH ARE IN MEDIA EVERY WEEK. RonnToro (talk) 10:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

QUOTE ME ON TAXI INDUSTRY THEN SINCE YOU WANT MY VIEWPOINTS.

• http://insights.wired.com/profiles/blogs/new-york-city-needs-a-universal-taxi-app-1#axzz3WtpKRkW5
• http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/taxi-kingpin-brokers-talk-city-hall-nypd-sergeant-head-article-1.2090766
• http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20140520/BLOGS04/140529985/taxi-mogul-suspects-city-official-moonlighted-for-uber

DO NOT REPRESENT GELLER. NOT A CLIENT. http://jewschool.com/2015/03/35411/5wpr-pamela-geller-join-forces-to-attack-new-israel-fund/

I EMPLOY 125 PEOPLE. LESS THAN 2 OF THEM KNOW WHAT THE NEW ISRAEL FUND IS. NO THAT SHOULD NOT BE PART OF MY BIOGRAPHY YOU PEOPLE HAVE POLITICAL MOTIVATIONS. IN MY INDUSTRY I RUN A TOP 20 PR FIRM AND WIN AWARDS. THAT IS WHAT I AM KNOWN FOR AND HUNDREDS OF CLIENTS. IF YOU WANT TO WRITE ABOUT NEW ISRAEL FUND THEN WRITE ABOUT ALL THE CLIENTS I AM QUOTED FOR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonnToro (talk • contribs) 10:09, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I can't speak to everything that RonnToro has posted recently. (I lack the time to parse through all of it.) Here is what I can say:

• The quotation published in The Atlantic () is inappropriate for inclusion in the article, because the source is not reliable. It's written in the context of an op-ed / newsblog piece very clearly slanted against Torossian. The quotation was gathered anecdotally outside of a formal interview and is not public. That it was repeated in two other places does not verify the quotation. Furthermore, if the person below is indeed the subject of the article, we now have a clear objection to the claim. Finally, if the quotation were truly an important detail in his biography, I expect something as outrageous as this quote would be picked up on more than a few newsblogs. The context of the quote is problematic, and the coverage just isn't there.
• Regarding the general political commentary, I don't see any progress moving forward on this issue until someone produces specific language for it and how it is sourced. Ravpapa mentioned that some elements of this version of the article might be considered. What elements could be reintroduced and how would they be sourced? From this discussion, I see different politically-related things discussed about Torossian, but they are about different topics. I do not see a more holistic discussion of Torossian's political opinions.

Unfortunately, I will need to exit from this discussion as a participant due to my own time limitations, so I'll leave it to the rest of you to resolve these matters. I, JethroBT 22:47, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion at conflict of interest notice board

Please see here. ThanksJytdog (talk) 13:18, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

note - I added a box to the bottom of the yellowish box at the top of this page, to make it easy for conflicted editors to comply with WP:COI and suggest edits to the article here as opposed to making them directly to the article. Jytdog (talk) 14:24, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Upton Sinclair said, “It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it.”

When I'm trying to get an editor to understand something, I'd like to know whether his salary depends on his not understanding it.

And I'd like to know whether User:Huon has any financial or other relationship with Ronn Torossian. I and others here would like a statement from him one way or the other. Is that a reasonable request? Can we get that? --Nbauman (talk) 15:51, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Huon has provided such a disclosure. You can read it here. Regards, --Ravpapa (talk) 16:40, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

OK, no financial connection. Thanks. If Torossian has any complaints about the article, he should come to this Talk page directly. One problem with #wikipedia-en-help is that there is no record of the discussion, so unless someone happens to be on the chat at the same time, there's no way to find out what he had to say. --Nbauman (talk) 18:42, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

THIS IS RONN TOROSSIAN. I OWN A BUSINESS AND AM NOT GOING TO DEBATE HERE. THAT SAID, I NEVER EVER SAID WHAT JEFF GOLDBERG CLAIMS I SAID IN THAT ARTICLE. IT IS A LIE AND WAS NEVER SAID. IT ABSOLUTELY WAS NOT RECORDED AS I NEVER EVER SAID IT AND I DEMAND THE IMMEDIATE REMOVAL OF THAT LIE. ONE OF YOU CAN EMAIL ME TO RONN@5wpr.com IF YOU DOUBT THIS IS ME. I WILL NOT DEBATE HERE I WILL SAY THAT I NEVER EVER SAID WHAT GOLDBERG SAYS I SAID - AND YES GOLDBERG HAS BEEN ADVISED REPEATEDLY I SAY IT IS A LIE. RonnToro (talk) 10:01, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

IF YOU HAVE WHAT GAKWER - A SALICIOUS GOSSIP BLOG SAYS ABOUT ME 7 YEARS AGO- THEN WHY DO YOU NOT HAVE MANY MANY POSITIVE QUOTES ABOUT ME. THAT IS NOT A BIOGRAPHY! THIS READS LIKE A GOSSIP SHEET NOT A BIOGRAPHY ! FIND ME 1 FEATURE STORY ABOUT ME IN LAST 5 YEARS WHICH MENTIONS THIS ISRAEL STUFF YOU MENTION. FIND ME 1 FEATURE STORY WRITTEN BY SOMEONE ELSE IN LAST 5 YEARS (I AM 40 YEARS OLD) WHICH MENTIONS ISRAEL. YOU WILL NOT. I REPRESENT MANY CLIENTS AND MANY INTERESTS AND AM IN MEDIA AND TV VERY REGULARLY FOR MANY ISSUES. GO DEBATE POLITICS ON A WEBSITE MY BIOGRAPHY IS NOT THAT. I HAVE A FAMILY AND BUSINESS AND WILL NOT DEBATE HERE.

YES JUDA ENGELMAYER WORKS FOR 5WPR AND WILL COMMENT AND HAS AND DOES IDENTIFY HIMSELF. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonnToro (talk • contribs) 10:14, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

AS JUDA SAID BEFORE: " It doesn't belong in the opener as that is not what he is known for. He doesn't have followers, neither US nor Israeli law makers seek his guidance for their policy issues, and no one on Misplaced Pages that I can see has used any of his opinions on Israel, Middle East or President Obama as references in any Misplaced Pages articles. What does that say about what he is known for? He is on shows like Entertainment Tonight and E!, Fox 5 News, CBS and the like for comments on the careers of Jay-Z, A-Rod and Justin Bieber, or brands like Campbell's Soup or Virgin Airlines, but media does not seek him for comment on foreign policy. Any honest search of media will show you that. All I ask here is to be fair and objective. He is known for PR and marketing. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 11:47, 23 July 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonnToro (talk • contribs)

Awards

Per the "If no third-party source mentions it, it cannot be all that significant" standard, I have removed the Stevie Awards. Going by their self-representation, with about 30% to 40% of nominees winning something, their financing via nomination fees, and their FAQ promoting the PR advantages of nominating yourself for, and winning, a Stevie, I rather don't think that's a significant achievement. Huon (talk) 22:19, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

ARTICLE

I WILL NOT DEBATE THISBUT DURING MY MORNING RUN THIS IRKED ME. YOU ARE COMMENTING ON MY LIFE AND IT IS NOT TRUE. ANYONE CAN SAY I SAID ANYTHING IN AN OPINION PIECE. I DID NOT TELL JEFF GOLDBERG THAT COMMENT 8 YEARS AGO IT IS A LIE. A GOSSIP PUBLICATION SAID SOMETHING ABOUT ME 7 YEARS AGO OR SO AND IT DEFINES ME BECAUSE A FEW OF YOU DECIDED THAT IS THE CASE.

THEN WHY DO YOU NOT TAKE ALL OF THE QUOTES FROM MY WEBSITE WHERE PEOPLE SAY I AM GREAT. TAKE THE HUNDREDS OF GREAT ARTICLES I HAVE BEEN QUOTED IN CALLING ME PR GURU GENIUS ETC THERE ARE MANY MANY PRAISES OF ME INCLUDING AWARDS.

WHY IS SOMEONES OPINION ABOUT ME (GOOD OR BAD) RELEVANT IN MY BIOGRAPHY. THAT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

ALSO I AM 40 YEARS OLD. THESE STORIES ARE MANY MANY YEARS OLD.

NOW LET US GO THROUGH THE BIOGRAPHY.

1ST PARAGRAPH: " As a public relations executive, Torossian is known for his aggressive tactics, which have won him both opponents and supporters." OPPONENTS AND SUPPORTERS? AM I A CANDIDATE FOR OFFICE? I OWN A BUSINESS. I AM KNOWN FOR BUILDING ONE OF THE LARGEST PRIVATELY HELD PR AGENCIES IN AMERICA. I AM NOW 40 YEARS OLD. THESE SUPPOSED CONTROVERSIES WERE ALL 7 YEARS AGO OR MORE. WHY DOES OPPONENTS AND SUPPORTERS DEFINE ME - AND WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH HOW I EARN A LIVING.

SECOND PARAGRAPH: I WORKED FOR THE LIKUD IN JERUSALEM IN 1998 REFLECT THAT ACCURATELY - LIKUD IS THE RULING PARTY IN ISRAEL. http://www.prweek.com/article/1258861/defiant-torossian-takes-pride-pushing-buttons http://news.investors.com/technology/031201-345097-international-relations-israeli-and-us-tech-industries-uneasy-as-sharon-era-begins.htm

NEXT PARAGRAPH: VERY LITTLE OF MY WORK IS MY POLITICS.

Reception PARAGRAPH: ATALNTIC MONTHLY I NEVER SAID WHAT HE SAYS I SAID - WHY IS HIS OPINION RELEVANT. GAWKER WHY WOULD THIS DEFINE MY CAREER

ALL OF THESE SOURCES ARE 6-8 YEARS OLD. I AM 40 YEARS OLD. OWN A $20MM ++ BUSINESS. I DONT HAVE OPPONENTS AND SUPPORTERS. I AM A SMALL BUSINESS OWNER ENTREPRENEUR.

THERE ARE MANY ARTICLES WHICH ARE POSITIVE ABOUT ME IF YOU WANT SAY THOSE.

AND IF YOU WANT RECEPTION THEN INCLUDE HOW WE WORK FOR LARGEST CAB OWNER IN AMERICA - FOR POLICE UNIONS - FOR FORTUNE 100 COMPANIES - VERY UNAWARE WHY RECEPTION WOULD INCLUDE COMMENTS FROM 8 YEARS AGO WHICH DO NOT DEFINE WHO I AM AS A PERSON. INCLUDE THE THOUSANDS OF CLIENTS WE REPRESENT

Political commentary SECTION: I AM ON TV AT LEAST ONCE A WEEK USUALLY MORE ON BREAKING NEWS - NEVER EVER POLITICAL. I AM ALSO QUOTED MORE THAN THAT FOR COMMENTARY ON PR CRISIS OR MARKETING CRISIS INCLUDE THAT.

WHY IS A CRITICISM OF NEW ISRAEL IN MY BIOGRAPHY. I WROTE A BREAKING NEWS STORY ON MR BRAINWASH A VERY FAMOUS STREET ARTIST SOME MONTHS AGO INCLUDE THAT. I WRITE OFTEN ON THE SOUTH OF FRANCE AND ITS BEAUTY AND ON SPORTS INCLUDE THAT. THERE ARE ISRAEL OBSESSORS CLEARLY COMMENTING HERE. IF YOU WANT MY OPINIONS INCLUDE THE MANY MANY OF THEM THAT ARE ABOUT NEW YORK CITY

http://observer.com/2014/08/40-years-of-new-york-city-memories/ AND I NEVER WROTE " in conjunction with a campaign by Pamela Geller over the NIF's stance on the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign.

I WROTE AN ARTICLE WITH NETANYAHU FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF AND A FORMER BILL CLINTON SPOKESPERSON - THAT IS ACCURATE IF YOU WANT TO USE SOMETHING ALTHOUGH I DO NOT UNDERSTAND WHY THAT WOULD DEFINE ME. BUT IF YOU WANT TO GET IT ACCURATE http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/235832-new-israel-fund-is-no-friend-of-israel NEVER WROTE WITH PAM GELLER. DID WRITE WITH BIRNBAUM AND SHEINKOPF.

IF YOU WANT TO KEEP MAKING UP STORIES ABOUT MY LIFE THEN I CANNOT STOP YOU IN TODAYS WORLD.

BUT WHAT YOU DEFINE ME AS IS UNACCURATE AND ABSOLUTELY UNTRUE. AND MANY YEARS AGO THEN WAS NOT TRUE.

I OWN A PR FIRM. THAT IS WHY YOU SHOULD WRITE ABT ME ON WIKIPEDIA.

IF YOU DOUBT I AM WHO I SAY I AM DESIGNATE ONE PERSON (1) TO EMAIL ME - OR FEEL FREE TO CALL 5WPR.

WIKIPEDIA PAGES SHOULD BE ACCURATE. WHAT YOU PEOPLE HAVE HERE IS A DISTORTION - AND INACCURATE. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RonnToro (talk • contribs) 12:07, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

AND THIS IS RONN TOROSSIAN. WILL ASK JUDA ENGELMAYER WHO WORKS FOR 5WPR TO CHANGE THE PICTURE WHICH IS ALSO 8 YEARS OLD. WIKIPEDIA BIOGRAPHY ON LIVING PEOPLE IS AN ENCYCLOPEDIA AS I UNDERSTAND IT. THAT IS NOT A GOSSIP PUBLICATION OR A PLACE FOR PEOPLE WHO HAVE POLITICAL OPINIONS TO OPINE ON MY LIFE OR VIEWPOINTS.

I WORK IN PR AND AM A BUSINESS OWNER. I AM INTERESTED IN AND WRITE ABOUT ISRAEL. I ALSO WRITE ABOUT NEW YORK TRAVEL TECHNOLOGY ART AND OTHER PERSONAL INTERESTS. IF THAT IS INTERESTING INCLUDE ALL.

I WORKED FOR LIKUD in 1998 AT THE AGE OF 24. I AM TODAY 40 YEARS OLD AND A BUSINESS OWNER. NOT A POLITICIAN WITH OPPONENTS AND SUPPORTERS. DONT KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS - EVEN IF THE PEOPLE WHO "COMMENT" ON MY LIFE ARE INVOLVED WITH ISRAEL THAT IS NOT MY LIFE OR I IMAGINE WHY I HAVE A WIKIPEDIA PAGE. RonnToro (talk) 12:13, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Welcome back to Misplaced Pages, Ronn. Good to see you writing under your own name.

@Diannaa:: Although these recent posts bear many of the earmarks of the community-banned User:Babasalichai, I hope you will not delete them. In this case, Torossian is identifying himself, and, in his uniquely enthusiastic and prolix way, makes a number of points which we should take into account. To wit,

• Torossian denies that he ever made the "1000 Arabs" comment quoted by Jeffrey Goldberg. The quote is not currently in the article, and I have not seen a denial published in a third party source (is there one? If so, Ronn, please point us to it). Nonetheless, I think his denial on this talk page is strength enough not to include the quote.

• Torossian contends that most of the sources used in this article (he specifically refers to those sources criticizing him, but it is true also of the sources praising him) are old, and, from his point of view, out of date. He has a point. I think it behooves us to cite some more recent profiles of him. I will do a bit of research, and I suggest that others do, too.

• Torossian denies that he represents Pamela Geller or her organization, AFDI. Although the article as currently written does not specifically say that, it is vague about the connection between them in a way that I believe is unfair. Press reports claim that Torossian personally distributed AFDI's press release condemning the New Israel Fund. Ronn, do you deny that that is true? Please, make the denial specific: something like, "I never distributed press releases issued by the AFDI." If, in fact, Torossian does deny that, we should probably remove discussion of any connection between the two. Nonetheless, we should still probably include a quote or two from Torossian's published columns against the fund, especially since the fund has specifically named Torossian as a leader among its attackers. We also need to provide some context, so readers have some idea what all the flack is about (I said that already).

YOU WANT TO GET IT ACCURATE http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/235832-new-israel-fund-is-no-friend-of-israel NEVER WROTE WITH PAM GELLER. DID WRITE WITH BIRNBAUM AND SHEINKOPF.

• Torossian repeats his contention that his political commentaries are irrelevant to his biography in Misplaced Pages. I fail to understand this: if he doesn't want his commentaries to be quoted, why does he write them in the first place? I still stand by my original position: just about every source used in this article devotes extensive coverage to his political opinions. We should quote those opinions directly, and refer to the controversies they have engendered. This is an essential part of his biography. I would like to hear (yet again) what other editors think of this.

• Finally, Torossian suggests in his comments that he has changed in the last 15 years - now he focuses on his PR business, and his political activism is a thing of the past. Again, I can't understand how he can claim that and continue to write op-eds and opinion columns on political issues, consistently supporting specific and highly controversial political positions. Nonetheless, I think we need to consider this contention carefully, and perhaps revise the article accordingly. --Ravpapa (talk) 14:22, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I DID NOT SAY WHAT GOLDBERG SAYS. AND WHAT HE THINKS IS NOT RELEVANT FOR MY BIOGRAPHY. NOR IS GAWKER. THEY BOTH SHOULD NOT BE THERE. WHY IS THERE ANYONE OPINION. I DO NOT REPRESENT AFDI OR GELLER. PERIOD. ABSURD THAT SHOULD BE EVEN DISCUSSED IN A BIOGRAPHY. IF YOU INCLUDE NEW ISRAEL FUND INCLUDE THAT I WORKED WITH HANK SHEINKOPF AND NETANYAHU CHIEF OF STAFF. AND INCLUDE THE POLICE UNION THE CABBIES AND HUNDREDS OF CLIENTS WE HAVE WHICH ARE MUCH LARGER NEWS THAN NEW ISRAEL.

YOU PEOPLE ARE ISRAEL FOCUSED. NOT WHAT I DO. I WRITE MANY ARTICLES ON MANY TOPICS. INCLUDE ART AND SPORTS AND NEW YORK. AND MY BUSINESS IS WHAT MAKES ME NOTEABLE. I OWN A $20 MILLION AGENCY THAT IS WHAT I AM NOTEABLE FOR. I AM 40 YEARS OLD THOSE ARTICLES ARE 8 YEARS OLD. IF YOU WANT TO START QUOTING MY POLITICAL OPINION THEN QUOTE MY OPINION ON ART AND FRANCE AND SPORTS WHICH ARE BIGGER NEWS. I AM ON AIR CONTRIBUTOR TO ENTERTAINMENT TONITE FOR 3 YEARS INCLUDE MY HUNDREDS OF SEGMENTS THERE.

REMOVE THE LIES WHICH NOW EXIST AND ARE CRAZY. I DO NOT HAVE SUPPORTERS AND OPPONENTS NOT RUNNING FOR OFFICE. I DO HAVE 125 EMPLOYEES- LANDLORDS AND MANY OTHERS WHO NEED RENT PAID RonnToro (talk) 15:40, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

http://everything-pr.com/ronn-torossian-pr/246763/ http://observer.com/2014/11/six-questions-for-ronn-torossian-nadine-johnson-peggy-siegal-michael-tavani/ http://www.vibe.com/2011/11/5wpr-founder-chats-new-book-why-everyone-needs-good-pr-digital-age/ RONN TOROSSIAN ON TIM TEBOW http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/big-reaction-to-tebow-trade-in-the-big-apple/

http://thejewishreporter.com/2012/03/22/tim-tebows-trade-a-blessing-for-jews/

http://charismanews.com/opinion/33051-tim-tebow-the-media-is-not-your-friend

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/big-reaction-to-tebow-trade-in-the-big-apple/

http://www.algemeiner.com/2012/03/23/the-mitzvah-of-tebows-new-york-arrival/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltUESzLJ1Z4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPy3ib7SX-s

http://charismanews.com/opinion/33051-tim-tebow-the-media-is-not-your-friend

http://gothamist.com/2012/03/22/will_tim_tebow_be_the_evangelical_k.php

http://blogs.trb.com/sports/custom/business/blog/2012/03/timsanity_new_york_supreme_tes.html http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/jets/ny-jets-quarterback-tim-tebow-a-big-hit-madison-ave-experts-article-1.1048658#ixzz1przgIjEN

http://www.charismanews.com/us/33038-broncos-trade-puts-tim-tebow-in-spotlight-with-jeremy-lin

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1115076-pr-expert-saystim-tebow-will-be-a-marketing-hit-in-new-york-city

INCLUDE ME ON BILL COSBY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmTC9Mxhjc BATMAN: http://www.globalnews.ca/pages/story.aspx?id=6442683059 http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/07/20/colorado-theater-massacre-could-hurt-dark-knight-rises-at-box-office-experts/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lliRQfKznE&feature=plcp Ronn Torossian on CBS The Insider on Olympics Marketing http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JksiMYHVrMg&feature=youtu.be Ronn Torossian, CEO 5W Public Relations on CBS Insider on non traditional actors and models https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjMlFLh2QUM Ronn on The Insider about Kristen Stewart

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaRo8WrjcH0 Ronn on The Insider

YOU SHOULD INCLUDE MY OPINIONS ON TIM TEBOW WHICH WAS MUCH MUCH BIGGER NEWS THAN ME ON NEW ISRAEL FUND. BUT YOU PEOPLE TALK ONLY ABOUT ISRAEL AND LIVE IN A BUBBLE. GO EDIT SOME OTHER PUBLIC RELATIONS EXECUTIVE PAGE. ALL YOU PEOPLE WHO DISAGREE WITH ME ON ISRAEL POLITICS SHOULD NOT COMMENT ON MY LIFE. THAT IS NOT MY LIFE.

RonnToro (talk) 15:45, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

OPEDS ON TECHNOLOGY - INCLUDE THOSE - http://insights.wired.com/profile/RonnTorossian

EVERY NEWSPAPER IN WORLD COVERED THIS STORY AND HAD 5W IN IT: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/16/high-school-senior-who-claimed-fake-72m-fortune-releases-video-apology

HUGE NEWS STORY - WAY BIGGER THAN NEW ISRAEL HUNDREDS OF PAPERS: http://www.newsweek.com/free-cab-rides-emergency-responders-during-blizzard-nyc-302028

ME ON IHOP IN NEW YORK - http://therealdeal.com/blog/2011/10/11/ihop-to-take-space-in-chelsea-s-limelight-ashkenazy-acquisition-controls-both-pancake-franchisee-and-building/ MONOPOLY IN NEW YORK: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110214/manhattan/sightseeing-bus-company-declared-monopoly

THIS IS NOT WORTHY OF MY BIOGRAPHY BUT IF YOU PEOPLE INSIST ON INCLUDING ISRAEL THEN THIS PERHAPS http://observer.com/2015/01/battling-jewish-titans-alan-dershowitz-and-ronn-torossian-kiss-and-make-up/

ALL OF YOU PEOPLE FOCUS ON ISRAEL AND IGNORE THE WORLD WHICH EXISTS WHICH IS WHAT I DO FOR A LIVING AS OWNER OF ONE OF LARGEST PRIVATE AMERICAN PUBLIC RELATINS COMPANIES. STOP. RonnToro (talk) 15:54, 10 April 2015 (UTC) IF YOU MUST INCLUDE ISRAEL - http://jpupdates.com/2014/09/22/eric-cantor-faces-a-subpoena-from-israel-law-center-in-israel-china-terror-case/ - BUT WHY WOULD GOLDBERG COMMENT ABOUT ME BE AT ALL RELEVANT. AND WHY IS GAWKER OPINION ON ME IMPORTANT IN A BIOGRAPHY.

THIS WAS A MUCH BIGGER STORY OF ME WORKING FOR LANDLORDS IN EVERY NEW YORK PAPER. IF YOU WANT TO DESCRIBE NEW ISRAEL DESCRIBE THIS LANDLORD. http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140604/morris-heights/building-where-boy-fell-death-was-on-citys-elevator-offender-list IF I SAY SOMEONE IS AN IDIOT DOES THAT DEFINE THEIR LIFE. ALL YOU ISRAEL PEOPLE SHOULD REALIZE THERE IS A WORLD OUT THERE.

I REPEAT THAT THE WHOLE BIOGRAPHY IS INACCURATE AND WRONG. GOLDBERG AND OTHER QUOTES DO NOT BELONG IN BIOGRAPHY OF SOMEONE

RonnToro (talk) 15:59, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

http://61.129.118.78/Opinion/book-review/Business-Books-TOP-FIVE-US-Jun-15-2012/shdaily.shtml - top business book according to Shanghai Daily

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/nyregion/thecity/20feat.html?_r=0 Mr. Torossian is one of the New Yorkiest practitioners of this quintessentially New York profession

http://www.davidovit.com/articles/Torossian.pdf - long feature in Lifestyles magazine http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/confident_comeback - TOROSSIAN REPRESENTED OLMERT AND SHARON. THAT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN WHAT JEFFREY GOLDBERG SAYS. SO REMOVE GOLDBERG AND ADD THIS IF YOU CARE ABOUT ACCURACY. ANYONE CAN WRITE ANYTHING IN TODAY DAY AND AGE DOES NOT MAKE IT TRUE.

RonnToro (talk) 16:03, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the above account for block evasion (banned User:Babasalichai) and suggested that he contact us by email for removal of any inaccurate material. I will not remove the above posts, for the convenience of interested editors who might like to investigate these links for possible improvement of the article. -- Diannaa (talk) 16:48, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record: While I agree that the RonnToro account is probably another avatar of Babasalichai, I would consider an exception in this case. Unlike previous instances of the many-headed monster, this account speaks in the true voice of its owner. And the link you provide specifically advises subjects of articles to post their concerns to the article talk page - something Torossian has done, if somewhat flamboyantly and verbosely. Specifically, I asked if he wanted to deny that he had distributed AFDI press releases as reported in a number of newspapers. I think he should be allowed to make such a denial here, if he wishes (his last post is not a denial of this).

You are certainly within your prerogative to block him, as he is community banned. In any case, if you choose some measure of clemency in this case, he should certainly be advised to keep his comments short, focused and to the point. Respectfully, --Ravpapa (talk) 17:06, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The user still has his talk page available to respond to that question if he so wishes. -- Diannaa (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

Okay. Fair enough. --Ravpapa (talk) 17:24, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

What does it take to get something heard here? Ronn Torossian has for the first time, I believe, commented himself. It is him doing it and I can attest to that. The new picture of which I have absolute right to use and distribute was removed and now there is doubt as to whether it is Ronn himself speaking. You guys are incorrigible sometimes. Is this just to beat this subject down so much that editors can continue to solely determine right and wrong? As to a point made earlier, if there is doubt as to the veracity of the comments allegedly made to the writer of The Atlantic, they how on earth is that same comment that was attributed to that same article, repurposed in a thing such as Gawker considered to be a viable source? Repeat a lie long enough and it becomes the truth? Come on people, you are all smarter than that. Ronn himself is finally appealing directly and you argue it may not be him. You use doublespeak when considering what commentary on him are legitimate or not and his picture is deleted for copyright violation, which was done by a BOT apparently, but still at issue. What do you want? Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 19:42, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

The account User:RonnToro has been blocked because it is likely being operated by the same person as User:Babasalichai, who was banned from editing Misplaced Pages as a result of this discussion: Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive222#Community ban proposal for Babasalichai. At this point, if he wishes to have incorrect material removed from this article, I think his best option is to send an email to info-en-qwikimedia.org, where there are volunteers experienced in handling matters of this kind. Also, I think I am out of my depth here and have decided not to monitor or help with this article any more. -- Diannaa (talk) 23:17, 10 April 2015 (UTC)

I, too, think it is time for me to take a bow and move on to better things. While I have serious misgivings about how the article is edited now, I guess it could also be a lot worse. Anyway, @Huon: and @Nbauman:, it's your ball game now. I'm taking Ronn off my watchlist. (though, @Judae1:, if you come up with a free use picture, I will gladly add it in.) --Ravpapa (talk) 05:54, 11 April 2015 (UTC)

Relevance as a commentator

Came across this page and am very curious as to the merit of pigeon holing this person as a commentator on one specific area – when there’s clearly a wide spectrum of topics that he’s covered.

The below are the furthest things from ‘Pro-Israel’, and I think it should be reflected in the known for section on page. Possible changing the language to either “Author” or “Pop Culture Commentator”.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/big-reacti... http://thejewishreporter.com/2012/03/22/tim-teb... http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/33051-tim-t... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltUESzLJ1Z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPy3ib7SX-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmTC9Mxhjc http://globalnews.ca/news/268464/q-a-the-impact... http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/07/20... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JksiMYHVrMg http://insights.wired.com/profile/RonnTorossian... http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/16/hi... http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140604/morris... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/nyregion/thec... http://www.davidovit.com/articles/Torossian.pdf http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140604/morris... http://www.vibe.com/2011/11/5wpr-founder-chats-... Cada mori (talk) 17:10, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Which of those are third-party sources discussing Torossian's role as a commentator? Huon (talk) 00:04, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Huon

I am glad you pointed that out. The articles do not have to say explicitly that the guy is a “commentator”; the fact that he is writing on popular media sites on issues across the spectrum shows this. The links I attached below show him speaking of Justin Bieber, Beyonce, Jay Z, Warren Buffet, Liam Neeson, Mayor de Blasio, Bill O’Reilly, Vladimir Putin, Taxi cab policy, handsome cab policies in New York City, and Kim Kardashian.

However, you interestingly question whether any of the previous links discuss his being a commentator on pop culture, I would point out that no published writer has said that Torossian is an activist on Right Wing Israel affairs, but someone believes that stating is as fact in this Misplaced Pages article is appropriate.

In fact, I would argue that he writes about many topics, and is an activist and commentator on pop culture icons, tax policy, political and public leaders and issues that are popular for the day and time he publishes them. Still, since no third party says it, you here would argue it cannot be stated; same as the Israel opinion.

This article would be better served either stating he is a pop culture commentator or just pulling out the reference to his being known for “Pro-Israel political activism”, as the reference seems to be as opinionated as the Torossian seems to be.

http://www.businessinsider.com/justin-bieber-as...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/ronn-torossian...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/ronn-torossian...

http://www.newsmax.com/Headline/ronn-torossian-...

http://blogs.baruch.cuny.edu/ronntorossian/driv...

http://www.frontpagemag.com/2014/ronn-torossian... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cada mori (talk • contribs) 13:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Two of your links are 404s, three of them are repeats. The point you're missing is that there are reliable third party sources that discuss his pro-Israel commentating. I'm sure he'd like to be known for more and that's why he writes on so many outlets, but the point remains, his non-political commentary is not demonstrably notable. Mosmof (talk) 16:27, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

All due respect, but I am not missing any point. There are no credible third party sources that state that he is a pro Israel commentator. All I have seen are Misplaced Pages editor opinions on that matter. The article body itself reads, “Torossian publishes opinion pieces in the New York Post, The New York Observer and The Jewish Press. In March 2015 he criticized the New Israel Fund in conjunction with a campaign by Pamela Geller over the NIF's stance on the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign.” Indicating clearly that he “publishes opinion pieces” and does not specify what kinds, but we can assume general. The article does randomly talk about one campaign he had written about, but it does not take away from that fact that it reads “publishes opinion pieces”. That should be all in his bio box – because that is all we know. No one from what I have read or seen refers to him as a commentator on Israel – at least no credible media writer or announcer has said as much. If you can admit, as you do, that he does indeed write about many topics, then why is so hard to commit that to his article in general?

Again, the full array of links are below:

• Justin Bieber

• de Blasio - tale of two cities

• Buffet

• Putin

• When Ignorance and Assumption Drive PR

• O'reilly

• Beyonce

• Kardashian

• taxis

• (Neeson

Cada mori (talk) 17:40, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Might I add the New York Observer today, Torossian on NYObserver on Taxi Medallion policy and pricing. I hate to beat this dead horse, so to speak, but he is known for running a PR firm and all else is noise. He writes often on everything, and gets quoted on many more topics, but he runs a firm that has grown rather quickly over the 12 years since its founding. That I can attest to. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 19:32, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Cada mori provides an impressive, but useless, collection of broken links. The Haaretz article we cite as a reference mentions "Ronn Torossian, a New York-based public relations professional who has been publishing anti-NIF opinion pieces in the New York Post, New York Observer and Jewish Press of late". That article is the only third-party coverage of Torossian's writings as a columnist I've ever seen. There's simply no one writing about his Cannes-related columns, or his taxi bailout related columns, or anything but those anti-NIF opinion pieces. So those are what Misplaced Pages focuses on. I don't think two sentences are too much in relation to the rest of the article. Huon (talk) 21:54, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

HuonYou say, “That article is the only third-party coverage of Torossian’s writings as a columnist I've ever seen.” That is just the point here. He is not an activist. One piece, in passing says he has written about it. So you are comfortable calling him an Israel Activist because one article in a decade as the owner of 5W says he wrote about NIF? That makes him an activist? I am comfortable just deleting the reference altogether and leaving with the real fact that he is known as a PR guy.

It certainly helps understand the motivation here. A single reference in any other Misplaced Pages article would not fly as a valid reference to label anyone. Cada mori (talk) 13:57, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

yep. we need secondary sources that describe what Torossian talks about. I am only aware of the one source as well. Jytdog (talk) 21:59, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, Huon, please listen to what it is you are saying. You both say that there is just one source that mentions that he writes about Israel, but the Ha'aretz article didn't even say that. It said he criticized a particular organization within Israel, and it did not say he was an Activist. That is invented language, and derived from just a single source. Huon says, "That article is the only third-party coverage of Torossian's writings as a columnist I've ever seen." One article that doesn't even call him a columnist, but says "Torossian, a New York-based public relations professional who has been publishing anti-NIF opinion pieces..." That does not say he is a columnist or an activist, it says he is a public relations professional and that is all.

All I am suggesting is that you remove the reference to his so-called activism in the Bio Box and just leave it with what they all say - Public Relations. Honesty and integrity is what Misplaced Pages is about and by using ONE reference that does not even say what this article claims it does, makes that singular reference useless for this. Objectivity is the rule of thumb here, right? Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 13:30, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, Juda S. Engelmayer. The question has been asked a few times - do you have answer? Namely - do you know of any other source that discusses what he comments on? thanks. (without that, the discussion about WEIGHT becomes really subjective - this is why we rely on secondary sources as opposed to using primary sources - exactly to get NPOV right) Jytdog (talk) 13:33, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog Yes - they just say he is a public relations guy and that is all that should be in the info box. Nothing says he is an activist or a columnist. Once again, I agree with you, and that is why the BIO INFO BOX should be modified to reflect the only thing third parties say about him in worthy numbers.Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 13:37, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

HM! I actually think that is reasonable. Let's take that out of the infobox. If he really were notable for that, there would be sources saying. What say you, everybody? Jytdog (talk) 13:42, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

From reading this dialogue here, it appears that this removal of the “activism” line is warranted. I have removed it based on the information posted here. Cada mori (talk) 15:03, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I think there should be a section with the title "Politics" which should include Torossian's political views, activism, and commentary. I don't agree that he is not notable for his politics; he had been in the news for his political activities for a decade before he got into PR. I have been WP:BOLD and added a "Politics" section to the article (because I am not sure how I could have discussed all that content on this talk page - should I have discussed it sentence by sentence?). This is by no means an exhaustive account of Torossian's political activities or sources which cover them - this is just a start, and meant to demonstrate that sources exist. Please feel free to reword or expand that section. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 18:22, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

This is Ronn Torossian. That info is more than 20 years old. And those are not primary sources. And considerably less noteable, than for example me in every single paper in the world for cabs or client work? 165.254.85.130 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:11, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Sure, post politics. So then post that I visit France and I play sports and am quoted nationally in newspapers all the time. that should be relevant also. I am in multiple papers today challenging the NY attorney general that should also be relevant. When I was 20 years old is more relevant than owning a $20MM agency? Are you kidding? 165.254.85.130 (talk) 20:14, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Well, yes, we want to avoid primary sources, so that's good! And again, you or people associated with you are not arbiters of what is or isn't notable. At least on Misplaced Pages, notability is determined by coverage in third party sources, and while there was an initial burst of coverage of 5W in the mid 2000s, there's just as much coverage of the activism. Also, being quoted is not coverage. Mosmof (talk) 20:23, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

--- FireflySixtySeven - Jytdog, Huon Ravpapa Mosmof - This issues has been debated in countless archived talk pages before - now we are starting over again. The people who have come here before know the history and can speak to what was discussed. This should have been brought to the talk page first and not edited as you did. Juda S. Engelmayer (talk) 20:25, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

We could avoid these repetitive discussions if Mr. Torossian took the time to read up on WP:PRIMARY and WP:OWN. And listing a bunch of authored columns and saying, "See, he's known for writing about a wide variety of subjects!" is a classic example of WP:OR. Mosmof (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

{{u}Judae1}} why are you pinging me? I didn't edit the article. Jytdog (talk) 20:38, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

It is absurd - and inaccurate - to say I am notable for 1994 activism when I was 20 years old. That is a joke. It is simply inaccurate. I own a $20MM agency. That's what I am noteable for. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 20:42, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

There has not been significant coverage? I am on national Tv 3x a week and in national media more than that. That is more relevant and what I am known for than a listing on Haaretz 20 years ago. Absurd. RONN TOROSSIAN TorossianRonn (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

It is just bias and insanity and childish to claim that 20 year old posts are relevant. They aren't even sourced absurd idiocy RONN TOROSSIAN TorossianRonn (talk) 11:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Goldberg Commentary

How and why would that be in my biography to describe my life? A: It is not accurate what he claims -

I WORKED FOR THE LIKUD IN JERUSALEM LIKUD IS THE RULING PARTY IN ISRAEL. http://www.prweek.com/article/1258861/defiant-torossian-takes-pride-pushing-buttons http://news.investors.com/technology/031201-345097-international-relations-israeli-and-us-tech-industries-uneasy-as-sharon-era-begins.htm

There are many other sources to show work for many others. So why would that be there. Would a right winger saying I am a genius be permitted. Fairness is not at play here. TorossianRonn (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Then there is this part of Goldberg's comment. This was alleged many years ago already, and no other media has ever stated the same other than repeated that Goldberg said it. Why is it pertinent at all? He is one person, and and not even the biggest name to ever mention my name. Yet, because of the positions I have spoken out about, some feel that this single rant for the rest of my life represents all that I am, have done and will ever be. That is hardly just for Misplaced Pages. Who else says that I have spoken that way? I have denied this before on these pages, but my word is taken with a grain of salt because it's not published. Then a gossip website gets used as a credible source for stating horrible opinions, and some feel again that these in t he flood of bigger, better and more responsible sources, are credible for Misplaced Pages references. Not looking to whitewash, but to be fair and to understand why some issues and comments are considered definite and timeless and others do not matter at all, and it usually runs relative to negative and positive/neutral commentary about me. TorossianRonn (talk) 12:06, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

section on politics, for discussion

FireflySixtySeven thanks for being BOLD and adding a section on Politics. Since this is a controversial article, it would be best to post here for discussion for a bit. Jytdog (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

At age 13, at the insistence of his mother, Torossian joined Betar, the Zionist youth movement. He was an active member of the organization for 10 years, and its national president from 1994 to 1996, and continued to fund them afterwards. He says he is guided Ze'ev Jabotinsky's teachings in his financial and personal life. His view of Judaism was shaped by his Betar experience. During his undergraduate days at SUNY Albany, he became an activist and advocate for Jewish people, became the head of Religious Zionists of America/Tagar (the youth wing of Betar), and developed a desire to become the Prime Minister of Israel. He accused the United Jewish Federations of Northeastern New York of financially neglecting SUNY Albany students, but both community and Hillel leaders claimed he was lying. Torossian claimed the personal attacks were because of the community leaders' aversion to his Betar ideology, and that they cared little about the Jewish students.

After completing his undergraduate degree, he moved to Israel for a master's degree, but quit his studies after some time to found Yerushalyim Shelanu (Our Jerusalem), an organization which promoted Jewish settlement in Eastern Jerusalem. He helped three families, consisting of 15 people, move into a house in Arab East Jerusalem. His organization hired private bulldozers to help quicken the pace of construction in Har Homa. He and his organization began making news for protesting whenever they perceived injustice against Jewish people.

In 1995, Torossian, as a member of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns-AMCHA, disrupted the rally where Pat Buchanan launched his presidential bid, holding a sign that said, "Buchanan Is a Racist". Torossian, a follower of Rabbi Avi Weiss, criticized Howard University president Patrick Swygert for his failure to "clamp down" anti-semitism on campus, and claimed that Swygert had "allowed Jewish students to be intimidated by black students and... taken no action". Torossian claimed he and other Jewish students had been "verbally abused and physically threatened" by black students while staging a counterdemonstration against a black student rally in support of the Million Man March, called by Louis Farrakhan. He called Farrakhan "a racist, sexist, anti-Semitic, homophobic hater". Torossian sued the police because they had prevented him from demonstrating at the rally, claiming his First and Fourth Amendment rights had been violated. During a demonstration in front of the Israeli consulate in New York, Torossian condemned and criticized Adam Shapiro, co-founder of the International Solidarity Movement, and called him a traitor.

In 1994, during the Nobel Prize award ceremony in Oslo, Torossian was arrested for protesting against Yasser Arafat being awarded the Peace Prize. In 1995, as a member of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns-AMCHA, Torossian took part in a protest against Yasser Arafat's visit in front of the John F. Kennedy School of Government where Arafat delivered a speech, and disrupted Arafat's meeting with the National Jewish Community Relations Advisory Council in New York, saying that he and his fellow demonstrators were there to "peacefully raise a voice of Jewish moral conscience against the biggest mass murderer since World War II". He organized a protest in 1997 against Arafat's visit to the United Nations, and affirmed the coalition's support of Har Homa. He participated in a demonstration against Sheik Omar Abdel-Rahman in front of a New York courthouse when Abdel-Rahman was being tried for the New York City landmark bomb plot.

As a Likud activist, Torossian, along with Rabbi Avi Weiss and New York State Assemblyman Dov Hikind submitted a petition in 1998 to Israel's High Court of Justice demanding the arrest and prosecution of Abu Abbas for his role in the Achille Lauro hijacking by PLO in 1985, and the murder of Leon Klinghoffer. The state refused to try Abbas because the Knesset had passed a law that prohibited prosecution of crimes committed before the Oslo Accord of 1993.The court ruled in favor of the state. As part of the right-wing civil rights organization Tzedek-Tzedek, Torossian helped with coordinating lawsuits against Avishai Raviv to "pursue the legality of the Oslo Accords, to see whether it is legal for Palestinian murderers to be running around, not under trial and not under indictment." He submitted a petition to the High Court demanding that Raviv be tried for perjury for his statements during the trial of Yigal Amir, who assassinated Yitzhak Rabin.

In 1999, Torossian criticized Benjamin Netanyahu's decisions, which included stopping construction at Har Homa and withdrawal of Israeli troops from parts of Hebron. As director of Americans for Israel's Survival, Torossian helped to organize a rally outside the French tourist office in New York in 2002, protesting against the French government's apathy towards anti-Semitic attacks. The rally called for a boycott of French goods and travel to France, aimed at harming France's economy.

Torossian publishes opinion pieces in the New York Post, The New York Observer and The Jewish Press. In March 2015 he criticized the New Israel Fund in conjunction with a campaign by Pamela Geller over the NIF's stance on the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign.

References

1. ^ Davidovit, Aliza. "Ronn David Torossian: The essence of a man" (PDF). Lifestyles Magazine. Retrieved April 23, 2015.
2. Singer, Natasha (July 1, 1994). "Betar Gears Up For Parade Suit". Forward. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |url= (help)
3. Gruenbaum Fax, Julie (March 3, 1995). "Money Crunch On Campus: Insufficient funding for Jewish programs at SUNY Albany". The Jewish Week.
4. Popper, Nathaniel (August 28, 2009). "Birthright Scored for Picking P.R. Firm Tied To Scandal, Hard Right Politics". Forward. Retrieved April 1, 2011.
5. "Settlers Occupy Jerusalem Dwellings". Washington Post. September 15, 1997.
6. Wohlgelernter, Elli (September 16, 1997). "'The Jews are here, and we're here to stay'". Jerusalem Post.
7. "Settlers take over building in Jerusalem neighborhood". Index-Journal. Greenwood, South Carolina. September 15, 1997.
8. "Settlers take 2 Arab Houses". The Capital. Annapolis, Maryland. September 15, 1997.
9. Beck, Galit Lipkis (January 5, 1998). "Group aiding Har Homa construction". Jerusalem Post.
10. Dorf, Matthew (March 20, 1995). "Jewish protesters disrupt Buchanan presidential rally". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
11. Woodward, Calvin (March 21, 1995). "Buchanan is back, still trying to separate right from wrong". Buffalo News.
12. "Buchanan kicks off '96 presidential bid". Galveston Daily News. Galveston, Texas. March 21, 1995.
13. "Buchanan joins campaign for Republican nomination". Gettysburg Times. Gettysburg, Pennsylvania. March 21, 1995.
14. "Buchanan enters GOP fray". Salina Journal. Salina, Kansas. March 21, 1995.
15. Beamish, Rita (March 21, 1995). "Buchanan declares war on sex and violence in presidential bid". Standard-Speaker. Hazelton, Pennsylvania.
16. Drew, Joseph (May 19, 1995). "New Howard Head Vowing to Fight 'Tragedy of Hate'". Forward. {{cite web}}: Missing or empty |url= (help)
17. Kurtzman, Daniel (October 12, 1995). "Black, Jewish students clash over march in Washington". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
18. Kurtzman, Daniel (October 18, 1995). "Behind the headlines: Strains of anti-Semitism waft among the marchers". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
19. Wohlgelernter, Elli (October 26, 1997). "DC police sued over treatment of Jews at rally". Jerusalem Post.
20. Leibovich-Dar, Sara (April 10, 2002). "Adam's rift". Haaretz. Tel Aviv, Israel. Retrieved April 26, 2015.
21. Weiss, Avi (December 16, 1994). "Outside and angry at the Oslo awards". Jerusalem Post.
22. "Arafat speaks at Harvard University". News Record. North Hills, Pennsylvania. October 25, 1995.
23. Mann, Cynthia (March 6, 1997). "Arafat complains to U.S. Jews about access to Israeli premier". Jewish Telegraphic Agency.
24. Neumeister, Larry (January 18, 1996). "Sheik, followers get long term for plot". San Bernardino County Sun. San Bernardino, California.
25. Rodan, Steve; Najib, Mohammed (May 11, 1998). "Court petition demands arrest of Abu Abbas". Jerusalem Post.
26. Izenberg, Dan (June 4, 1998). "State argues against trying 'Achille Lauro' hijacker". Jerusalem Post.
27. "Achille Lauro Petition Rejected by High Court". Israel Faxx. October 14, 1999.
28. Wohlgelernter, Elli (February 3, 1998). "Right-wing group coordinating suits against Raviv". Jerusalem Post.
29. Wohlgelernter, Elli (October 27, 1998). "A-G put on notice regarding Raviv". Jerusalem Post.
30. Ain, Stewart (January 8, 1999). "`Enough Of This Guy': Some of Netanyahu's staunchest U.S. supporters". The Jewish Week.
31. Ain, Stewart (May 3, 2002). "'Serious Lesson' In Hate: WJC officials meeting in Belgium on the stunning rise in European anti-Semitism are assaulted physically and verbally; polls show Le Pen fizzling in Sunday vote". The Jewish Week.
32. Ain, Stewart (May 17, 2002). "Split On French Boycott: Controversial AJCongress ad sparks rift among defense organizations". The Jewish Week.
33. Cohen, Debra Nussbaum (March 11, 2015). "Moving on from attacking Islam, Pamela Geller sponsors N.Y.C. bus ads against New Israel Fund donors". Haaretz.

Some pretty decent sources in the first part... the word "lying" is not especially great in a BLP article. are folks ok with this? there is no deadline here so we can take our time and get this right... Jytdog (talk) 21:14, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Why is the fact that I worked for the Likud being overlooked - and why is Goldberg's quote about me - which I never ever said still there. A: I never said it. and B: its not accurate. Why does that define my life.

I representd the Likud. That's not even there or in the people editing sources. shows bias and absurdity

Says here I represented both Ehud Olmert & Benyamin Netanyahu when they were Prime Ministers: Is that relevant ? http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/confident_comeback Easy to translate this from Globes Israels most respected business publication: http://67.199.80.177/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/ronn_torossian_globes_israel.pdf

http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/legacybuilding_time_olmert

Ronn Torossian representing left wing university Ben Gurion University: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2003/02/18/155371.html Worked closely with Prime Minister Olmert – he wasn’t considered a right wing prime minister @ all: http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/517134/ 2007 – Trained Israeli government officials during PM Olmerts’ tenure – not right wing: http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/inside_israel%E2%80%99s_image_war TorossianRonn (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

thanks for talking calmly Ronn. I'll look at those sources. hands full with day job work right now. others might have comments too... Jytdog (talk) 21:56, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for looking at this and working on it TorossianRonn (talk) 21:58, 23 April 2015 (UTC)

I don't have immediate access to the print sources, but if they support the cited content, I see nothing wrong in principle with the paragraph above. The wording could be improved - I believe "said" is considered more neutral than "claimed", for example - but if reliable third-party sources report that X accused Torossian of lying, then there's nothing wrong with us reporting that accusation, with attribution to who made it and with Torossian's reply, as was done in that paragraph. The only other issue I can think of would be neutrality: Whether we accurately reflect all that the sources report, without cherry-picking only certain aspects. I haven't checked whether that's an issue here.

The sources added by Mr. Torossian are not suitable for Misplaced Pages's purposes. Misplaced Pages content should be based on reliable, independent sources, on what others have written about him. I have routinely argued that we should not discuss his political writings since they were not discussed in independent sources. It appears such independent sources discussing his politics have by now been found. If Mr. Torossian thinks his writings on other topics are equally worthy of mention, we'd need not examples of him writing on those topics, but a third-party source discussing his writings on those topics. Huon (talk) 00:14, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

The links aren't available on those 20 page articles. Where are they?

Is the Davidoff article a worthy source? if so there's some great praise make sure its adapted. Also I assume that Our Jerusalem will be removed and Likud will be added correct. Those are 20+ year old sources. I am 40 years old - those are relevant with 1 source for each of those and many are inaccurate?? TorossianRonn (talk) 11:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC) and these quotes from Davidoff can be used right in the bio since the source is accepted?

The accelerated growth and success of his company and his winning team are but a reflection of the man himself. He is filled with exuberance, infinite energy and creativity; he strives for excellence and accepts nothing less; he takes no tally of efforts but rather of results.

Torossian is basically a whiz kid on fire and he has thus attracted some really hot accounts TorossianRonn (talk) 11:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

This is as much on me as is the Jerusalem issues above. and we represent the cops and the cabbies. Many sources like this. Much bigger than this Israel noise. http://m.nydailynews.com/news/politics/taxi-kingpin-brokers-talk-city-hall-nypd-sergeant-head-article-1.2090766 http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/nyregion/after-public-acrimony-quieter-steps-by-new-yorks-mayor-and-police-to-mend-a-rift.html?_r=0 TorossianRonn (talk) 11:37, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Erm. A massive section on politics in a biog of someone notable for working in PR is WP:UNDUE. You'll need to trim it. --Dweller (talk) 08:43, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Dweller - I agree. That is why I don't believe any of it should be there. It is just about PR. I raised the other issues to state that if someone here thinks that a politics section was needed, which even you do not seem to believe, then be fair and make it about the full array of issues I have helped advance; not just one item. TorossianRonn (talk) 11:55, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

For the record, it came to my attention that my previous comment could be read as if I thought cherry-picking were an issue here. That isn't what I meant; I see no reason to suspect cherry-picking and was just playing devil's advocate, mentioning the one reason I could imagine why theoretically that content might be problematic. Those are quite a few reliable third-party sources discussing Torossian's role in various political contexts, and I do not think removing them all is appropriate. I have seen no reason beyond general claims of undue weight presented for why that content should not be appropriate, and undue weight would be a reason to shorten it, but not to remove it outright. To emphasize, I don't have much of an opinion on whether this is undue weight - to me it seems earlier and print sources focus more strongly on one aspect, later and online sources more on the other - but even if there is undue weight, removing well-sourced content on that aspect altogether is not the way to fix it. Huon (talk) 22:23, 28 April 2015 (UTC)

User:Jytdog removed all mention of Torossian's politics and commentary more than 2 weeks back, including the portions that existed before my edit. How much more discussion is needed before it is restored, in full or in part?

Also, I don't see how Torossian is more notable for PR than for politics. Apart from a few profiles (NYT, Forward, Lifestyles Magazine) which also prominently mention his politics, the rest PR-related sources that come up are all about him being in the news because he is representing notable clients - from whom he doesn't inherit any notability. Those sources say nothing about Torossian the person except that his PR firm represented those clients, and that he acted as spokesman for those clients. FireflySixtySeven (talk) 11:17, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Information about this personality

Hi guys,

I was going through this personality online and found this information, where lot of controversial elements are added on a website i.e. www.gawker.com. Here is one story about Ronn Torossian http://gawker.com/365723/the-story-of-ronn-torossian.

I would strongly suggest to add this information inside the Misplaced Pages article because the users should know about both sides of the coin i.e positive as well as negative.

Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Mcnrow (talk • contribs) 12:23, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. You might like to read the sections above for extensive discussion of the Gawker material. --Dweller (talk) 12:49, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

I feel the need to address the perception of Gawker as a gossip blog. This was certainly true in the early days, when it was a one- or two-person operation that relied on anonymous tips. Today, it's a fully staffed site with a proper editorial process. And specific to this article, the Ronn Torrossian coverage comes from Hamilton Nolan, who covered the PR industry before joining Gawker. Of course, it's expected that Ronn's army of sock puppets would prefer to emphasize the site's past reputation (while simultaneously pleading with us to pretend the past didn't happen).

But if anything, Nolan's coverage of Torossian is likely to be more neutral and reliable than the slew of PR-pushed articles in the Times/Businessweek etc from the mid-00s. Mosmof (talk) 11:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Gawker is a blog site. If this is an encyclopedia why would someone opinion about me be part of a biography? And "the early days" would refer to when that article was written in 2007- 8 years ago.

This is inbalance and bias at its best. RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 12:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it's a blog site! A blog is a publishing format that lays articles out in a vertical, chronological format! Many large publications have switched their websites to this format! This is a red herring! Stop repeating "this is just a blog" like it means something.

Also, if you're asking why someone's opinion matter in a section titled "Perception", I'm not sure what to tell you. Opinions are generally expected in biographical articles.

Finally, Gawker's shift in editorial style happened around 2006, 2007. Hiring of Hamilton Nolan was a major step in this direction. If anything, Nolan's coverage serves as a perfect counterbalance to the puff articles about 5W that popped up around this time. And I fail to see how Nolan is any more biased than the clearly PR-pushed profile pieces of that time. Mosmof (talk) 12:33, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi folks,

I also found one another controversial subject about this person. Last Year, one lawsuit was also filed against this guy regarding 'con artist' campaign on message boards. Here is the link to that story which was published on NYDailytimes: http://www.nydailynews.com/entertainment/gossip/confidential/pr-lawsuit-blasting-big-flack-article-1.1596031 and I believe that this should be a part of the Misplaced Pages page, so that users know each and everything about this person. Thanks!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Mcnrow (talk • contribs) 08:18, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

This story (with the same exact source) was added last year, then removed per WP:BLPCRIME. The source is gossipy in nature (there's even "gossip' in the URL!), and since the suit was filed in January 2014, there doesn't seem to be any development that would warrant including in the article. Mosmof (talk) 14:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Politics

When is the "discussion" above about politics going to be closed? Jytdog removed the entire section a month back for talk page discussion, did not respond when pinged about it after two weeks, but has immediately reverted my edit to the article which mentions Torossian's political activism in the infobox. Maybe someone else can take a look and see if there is enough case to include his political activism in the article? FireflySixtySeven (talk) 16:59, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for being patient, and sorry for not getting back to this sooner. I reviewed this. As somebody noted above, the "lying" thing was a bit over the top and without context. I found that article and reported other, more salient stuff out of it, and added some more content. I also re-arranged it to make it chronological. It would be good if we could source the statement "He regularly publishes opinion pieces in the New York Post, The New York Observer and The Jewish Press." to some secondary source. that is the one thing I am not too sure of. Jytdog (talk) 15:30, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

I was able to use the Likud spokesman thing. The other links there are dead. Jytdog (talk) 13:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Absolute untruths and non links in the article and the politics section should be removed as per edits. One user Jytdog posted it and theres been no consensus for it.

Further, 5W has no office in Israel and the source does not support what is written there.

Source for 25, 26 & 27 is not a Misplaced Pages approved real news source. 1995 Jewish Week source - A: There's no link and B: Its supposedly a group I ran, not something I did. 28, 29, 30 - No links, and I was a spokesman for an organization, not dissimilar to a spokesman now for issues (cabs, police, etc.)

All the rest there's no links or its press releases. There's no consensus for this and it should be removed immediately., RONN TOROSSIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.254.85.130 (talk) 01:27, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for talking. Thanks for clarifying the practice directed to israeli companies - yep not an office in israel. i added one URL and quotes to sources only on lexisnexus. Jytdog (talk) 01:43, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

A press release is not a source and that section should be removed.

inaccurate BLP sections must be removed immediately or you are in violation of Misplaced Pages. There are not links on these stories, and they are not shown. Press releases are not approved, nor are the stories you have there. Per Misplaced Pages remove immediately. You cannot use press releases and you cannot use stuff without links, Theres no links. you also did not discuss it on this page as required. Remove immediately per Misplaced Pages rules. 165.254.85.130 (talk) 01:54, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

If you want politics, lead with the Likud

Says here I represented both Ehud Olmert & Benyamin Netanyahu when they were Prime Ministers: http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/confident_comeback Easy to translate this from Globes Israels most respected business publication: http://67.199.80.177/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/ronn_torossian_globes_israel.pdf http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/legacybuilding_time_olmert

Ronn Torossian representing left wing university Ben Gurion University: http://www.theautochannel.com/news/2003/02/18/155371.html Worked closely with Prime Minister Olmert – he wasn’t considered a right wing prime minister @ all: http://www.newswise.com/articles/view/517134/ 2007 – Trained Israeli government officials during PM Olmerts’ tenure – not right wing: http://www.thejewishweek.com/features/inside_israel%E2%80%99s_image_war

Further, you don't have sources for what you say that are accurate. Israel practice is a non factor and a press release. No independent source. you are cherry picking. No 3rd party source.

Also, Is the Davidoff article a worthy source? if so there's some great praise make sure its adapted. Also I assume that Our Jerusalem will be removed and Likud will be added correct. Those are 20+ year old sources. I am 40 years old - those are relevant with 1 source for each of those and many are inaccurate?? RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 01:57, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks there is some good stuff there! I am going to see a movie now - will incorporate stuff from those links in the morning. Jytdog (talk) 02:01, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

IT SHOULD ALL BE REMOVED THERE IS NO CONSENSUS FOR THESE EDITS. NO DISCUSSION ABOUT THIS AT ALL.

INACCURATE AND UNRELEVANT: At age 13, at the insistence of his mother, Torossian joined Betar, the Zionist youth movement. He was an active member of the organization for 10 years, and its national president from 1994 to 1996, and continued to fund them afterwards. He says he is guided Ze'ev Jabotinsky's teachings in his financial and personal life. His view of Judaism was shaped by his Betar experience. THIS IS ABOUT A GROUP I WAS A MEMBER OF - NOT WHAT I DID??? According to a report in ] in 1995, under Torossian's leadership RZA bought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus, burned Palestinian flags, and "burned Palestinian flags on the state Capitol steps, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert...of anti-Semitism, and in general have 'exacerbated racial tensions on campus,'" according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor.

NO SOURCE AND INACCURATE: In 1994, during the Nobel Prize award ceremony in Oslo, Torossian was arrested for protesting against Yasser Arafat being awarded the Peace Prize. In 1995, Torossian, as a member of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns-Amcha, disrupted the rally where Pat Buchanan launched his presidential bid, holding a sign that said, "Buchanan Is a Racist". Torossian, a follower of Rabbi Avi Weiss, criticized Howard University president Patrick Swygert for his failure to "clamp down" anti-semitism on campus, and claimed that Swygert had "allowed Jewish students to be intimidated by black students and... taken no action". Torossian claimed he and other Jewish students had been "verbally abused and physically threatened" by black students while staging a counterdemonstration against a black student rally in support of the Million Man March. Torossian sued the police because they had prevented him from demonstrating at the rally, claiming his First and Fourth Amendment rights had been violated.

WRONG - WORKED FOR LIKUD AND NO SOURCE: After completing his undergraduate degree in 1995 he moved to Israel for a master's degree, but quit his studies after some time to found Yerushalyim Shelanu (Our Jerusalem), an organization which promoted Jewish settlement in Eastern Jerusalem. He and his organization began making news for protesting whenever they perceived injustice against Jewish people.

THIS SHOULD BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY AS PER WIKI RULES. ITS WRONG AND THERE WAS NO DISCUSSION JUSTIFYING. and theres no sources? and its 20 years old. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.254.85.130 (talk) 02:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that this article is a biography of you. It is not just about your professional work. As far as I can see the section is accurate and well sourced; it seems that from a young age you were inspired by Ze'ev Jabotinsky and even just a few months ago you wrote an editorial advocating his views and writing about him and his relevance just a month ago. It's a coherent story and very well-sourced. I do not understand what you are objecting to. If you have sources that create a different story, please bring them. Calmly. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

If Mr. Torossian were as concerned about Misplaced Pages's rules as he claims, he would recognize that he's banned from editing Misplaced Pages, which includes talk pages. Rather, he should follow the advice given here and contact OTRS via email at info-en-qwikimedia.org. Offline sources are entirely acceptable, and the age of the sources is not a concern unless there were newer sources explicitly contradicting the old ones. Claiming "no source" for a paragraph that cites no less than six sources is utterly unpersuasive, as is shouting "INACCURATE" without pointing out what exactly is inaccurate, or how it is inaccurate. Huon (talk) 15:18, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I have removed some press releases, replacing them by more reliable third-party sources where possible. (The part on his opinion pieces is due to Haaretz, the source cited at the end of that paragraph.) I also reworded the garbled sentence about the flag-burning, but I didn't have access to its source and would ask someone with access to double-check whether I didn't attribute too little to Malcolm Sherman. I felt no need to quote the Jewish Week and have shortened that part of the sentence. Huon (talk) 20:04, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I do email that address and no one emails back.

no one says I burned a flag - remove that. And I was a spokesman for an organization protesting. Why is that any different than a spokesman for companies today. I was a spokesman for likud when you have this Our Jerusalem wrongly. The whole thing is overkill if fact matters. And why are there still press releases as sources. THIS IS WHOLY NOT TRUE: In 2014 5W launched a practice focused in Israeli companies. At that time it already represented 20 Israeli companies and the government of Israel.

Why are these unrelevant yet they are more prominent than Israel? http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/03/22/big-reacti... http://thejewishreporter.com/2012/03/22/tim-teb... http://www.charismanews.com/opinion/33051-tim-t... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltUESzLJ1Z4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPy3ib7SX-s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmTC9Mxhjc http://globalnews.ca/news/268464/q-a-the-impact... http://www.foxnews.com/entertainment/2012/07/20... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JksiMYHVrMg http://insights.wired.com/profile/RonnTorossian... http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/16/hi... http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140604/morris... http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/nyregion/thec... http://www.davidovit.com/articles/Torossian.pdf http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20140604/morris... http://www.vibe.com/2011/11/5wpr-founder-chats-...

EVERY NEWSPAPER IN WORLD COVERED THIS STORY AND HAD 5W IN IT: http://www.theguardian.com/money/2014/dec/16/high-school-senior-who-claimed-fake-72m-fortune-releases-video-apology

HUGE NEWS STORY - WAY BIGGER THAN NEW ISRAEL HUNDREDS OF PAPERS: http://www.newsweek.com/free-cab-rides-emergency-responders-during-blizzard-nyc-302028

ME ON IHOP IN NEW YORK - http://therealdeal.com/blog/2011/10/11/ihop-to-take-space-in-chelsea-s-limelight-ashkenazy-acquisition-controls-both-pancake-franchisee-and-building/ MONOPOLY IN NEW YORK: http://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/20110214/manhattan/sightseeing-bus-company-declared-monopoly

What I fail to understand is this stuff from 20 years ago being more prominent than what I am noteable for. RONN TOROSSIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:48, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

WHY IS THIS HERE? THERE IS NOT EVEN A SOURCE FOR IT???? Under Torossian's leadership RZA brought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus in 1995, burned Palestinian flags, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert, of anti-Semitism, and "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor. REMOVE THIS ABSURD. NO SOURCE. DAMAGING LIES. RONN TOROSSIAN 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 00:52, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Political Discussions

be accurate if you want to include. 20 years ago I worked for Likud. That should suffice. If its about a spokesman for an organization make sure that all the quotes for spokesman in last 20 years for corporations is reflected. a $20MM + organization has many divisions - if you want to spell them out great. Is a press release ok as a source as used for one group? and theres plenty of issues daily am spokesman for - cabs police and more.

also why the lifestyles article has only negatives take the great things there stop cherry picking Israel. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.254.85.130 (talk) 02:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I guess the question here should be is what is truly applicable to a wikipedia article? Is every aspect of a life, spanning the duration of decades, worthy of notation? What about torossian makes him worthy of an article? Why do some feel that his israel actions are what makes him who he is and why do some feel it is just 5W? These should be talked about and consensus should be made before these edit challenges occur. This is just more of the same continuous circle of events that occurs here time and again. TLVEWR (talk) 07:03, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I guess it comes down to why he's notable. Most PR people aren't subject of mainstream coverage. They generally prefer to work under the radar because of the nature of the job. Torossian's willingness to voice his opinions and his past activism make him unique. His politics are essential to his notoriety and without them, I'm not sure there's that much to talk about. Mosmof (talk) 11:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

BUT THERE ARE NOT ACCURATE SOURCES FOR WHAT IS CLAIMED THERE. DEBLASIO AND NYPD ENDING THE CONFLICT IS NOT NOTEABLE BUT ISRAEL IS? AND PRESS RELEASES AS SOURCES ARE OK? WHY? WHEN? GOSSIP BLOGS ARE OK? RONN TOROSSIAN — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.254.85.130 (talk) 12:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Please stop yelling. I won't have a discussion, being yelled at. Jytdog (talk) 13:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

I have just reverted the edits by TLVEWR since they were a blatant misrepresentation of what the sources actually said about the level of Torossian's involvement. Both the NYT and the Daily News focused on how "a mutual friend, Evgeny Freidman", promoted the meeting. Torossian is merely mentioned as "also attened", not as the main force behind the deal. I rather doubt Torossian considers himself a friend of de Blasio, given his personal opinion is that "Beta-males Obama and de Blasio are respectively governing our country and America’s largest city during trying times; and they are failing miserably during this deep and dangerous crisis." Also, despite recent claims of not being involved with Torossian, TLVEWR was confirmed to be technically indistinguishable from Torossian, his socks and his known associates. I slowly get the impression that we should treat 5WPR the way we do Wiki-PR. Huon

(talk) 16:40, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Worked for Likud when it says I was Our Jerusalem. Likud is accurate --- in '90s.

There's no source now for Israel clients now. Its a press release. May I ask why a spokesman for Buchanan protest is relevant but not daily media am featured in? Surely Deblasio and NYPD happening is relevant as I was one of 4 attendees. Why would ISrael 20 years ago dominate me? I have nothing to do with Pamela geller? does the truth matter at all? There's not sources that say what you claim here. Absurd childish. RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 20:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

You Don't Even Have Sources For these 20 year old claims

Specifics: THERE IS NO SOURCE FOR THIS OTHER THAN A PRESS RELEASE WHY IS THERE 2 PARAGRAPHS ABOUT OPINIONS OF ME? WHY WOULD THAT BE IN A BIO? Atlantic Monthly writer Jeffrey Goldberg called him "the most disreputable flack in New York", particularly criticizing his representation of what Goldberg called the "lunatic fringe" of right-wing Israeli politics. Gawker’s Hamilton Nolan wrote that Torossian "embodies the public’s worst ideas about what a PR person is: loud, brash, more flash than substance, dirty, manipulative, amoral, and, in the end, not particularly bright." LET ME UNDERSTAND – 5WPR IS NOT RELEVANT, BUT A GROUP I WAS A PART OF ACTIVITIES in 1995 IS RELEVANT?? I NEVER DID THESE THINGS THEY SAY HERE???? WHAT CAN THIS HAVE TO DO WITH ME??? During his undergraduate days at SUNY Albany, he became an activist and advocate for Jewish people, became the head of Religious Zionists of America/Tagar (the youth wing of Betar), and developed a desire to become the Prime Minister of Israel. Under Torossian's leadership RZA brought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus in 1995, burned Palestinian flags, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert, of anti-Semitism, and "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor. I DID NOT FOUND THIS ORGANIZATION – YOEL HASSON AND DANNY DANON DID. READ ABOVE SOURCES WHICH ARE THERE FOR YEARS? After completing his undergraduate degree in 1995 he moved to Israel for a master's degree, but quit his studies after some time to found Yerushalyim Shelanu (Our Jerusalem), an organization which promoted Jewish settlement in Eastern Jerusalem. He and his organization began making news for protesting whenever they perceived injustice against Jewish people. WRONG – THIS WAS IN ‘90S” Before founding his PR company in 2003, he worked as a spokesman for Likud. NEW YORK TIMES - AND MANY OTHERS SAYS I MET PRIVATELY WITH DEBLASIO & POLICE. WAS THAT NOT A MUCH MUCH BIGGER STORY THAN ISRAEL. SO DESCRIBE DEBLASIO AND POLICE ON MY BIOGRAPHY PAGE. • http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/18/nyregion/after-public-acrimony-quieter-steps-by-new-yorks-mayor-and-police-to-mend-a-rift.html?_r=0 • http://everything-pr.com/de-blasio-nypd/256512/ • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/taxi-kingpin-brokers-talk-city-hall-nypd-sergeant-head-article-1.2090766 • http://insights.wired.com/profiles/blogs/new-york-city-needs-a-universal-taxi-app-1#axzz3WtpKRkW5 • http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/taxi-kingpin-brokers-talk-city-hall-nypd-sergeant-head-article-1.2090766 • http://www.crainsnewyork.com/article/20140520/BLOGS04/140529985/taxi-mogul-suspects-city-official-moonlighted-for-uber

I EMPLOY 125 PEOPLE. HOW IS THAT NOT WHAT AM RELEVANT FOR??

AND DO NOT TELL ME NOT TO YELL. WIKIPEDIA RULES SAY THAT INACCURATE UNSOURCED SHOULD BE REMOVED IMMEDIATELY.

YOU DONT EVEN HAVE SOURCES FOR THESE THINGS. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 165.254.85.130 (talk) 20:12, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

The short of it is that Torossian's claims are baseless, our content is well-sourced and actually rather toned down compared to what the sources say about him and his works, and I'm pretty close to simply reverting the rants by a banned editor. Huon (talk) 20:55, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Here are your sources. Press releases and random author websites are not sources.

Press release as a source: http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/ronn-torossian-led-5w-public-relations-launches-israel-practice-253199411.html Random author website: http://www.davidovit.com/articles/Torossian.pdf Of course its better than #28-33 for which there are no links/sources. And the item about RZA - that's not about me. So why is that there. No, its not sourced, and no its not toned down as its not even true. RONN TOROSSIAN

Ronn Torossian commentary

Help please

This is inaccurate, and the source is a press release: In 2014 5W launched a practice focused in Israeli companies. At that time it already represented 20 Israeli companies and the government of Israel. Why is a quote from Goldberg & a gossip blog in my bio? Atlantic Monthly writer Jeffrey Goldberg called him "the most disreputable flack in New York", particularly criticizing his representation of what Goldberg called the "lunatic fringe" of right-wing Israeli politics. Gawker’s Hamilton Nolan wrote that Torossian "embodies the public’s worst ideas about what a PR person is: loud, brash, more flash than substance, dirty, manipulative, amoral, and, in the end, not particularly bright."

Politics This whole section is outsized. And I worked for the Likud during most of the ‘90s. Thats all thats needed i’d think for something i did when i was 20 years old. THIS IS UNTRUE ADN THERE IS NO SURCE FOR IT – AND EVEN THE SOURCE SAYS IT WAS AN ORGANIZATION. 5wpr was removed as it wasnt about me, yet this remains? Come on During his undergraduate days at SUNY Albany, he became an activist and advocate for Jewish people, became the head of Religious Zionists of America/Tagar (the youth wing of Betar), and developed a desire to become the Prime Minister of Israel. Under Torossian's leadership RZA brought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus in 1995, burned Palestinian flags, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert, of anti-Semitism, and "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor. NO SOURCE: In 1994, during the Nobel Prize award ceremony in Oslo, Torossian was arrested for protesting against Yasser Arafat being awarded the Peace Prize. In 1995, Torossian, as a member of the Coalition for Jewish Concerns-Amcha, disrupted the rally where Pat Buchanan launched his presidential bid, holding a sign that said, "Buchanan Is a Racist". Torossian, a follower of Rabbi Avi Weiss, criticized Howard University president Patrick Swygert for his failure to "clamp down" anti-semitism on campus, and claimed that Swygert had "allowed Jewish students to be intimidated by black students and... taken no action". Torossian claimed he and other Jewish students had been "verbally abused and physically threatened" by black students while staging a counterdemonstration against a black student rally in support of the Million Man March. Torossian sued the police because they had prevented him from demonstrating at the rally, claiming his First and Fourth Amendment rights had been violated.

THIS IS NOTHING ARE YOU KIDDING? WHAT WAS THE CONTROVERSY? In 2009, his politics created controversy for one of his clients, Birthright Israel, when it selected 5W to represent it. In the course of reporting on that controversy,The Forward described Torossian as being "proud of his right-wing political beliefs" and quoted Jeffrey Goldberg, who formerly wrote for the Forward and who then wrote for The Atlantic Monthly, who said that Torossian "represents the hardest right on the Israeli spectrum." I write for Huff Post, Wired Magazine and others – way more relevant: Torossian publishes opinion pieces in the New York Post, The New York Observer and The Jewish Press. Nothing to do with Pam Geller: In March 2015 he criticized the New Israel Fund in conjunction with a campaign by Pamela Geller over the NIF's stance on the Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions campaign.

This whole thing makes no sense and is simply meant to harm me. 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 01:00, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

"Contentious material about living persons... that is unsourced or poorly sourced – whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable – should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion...Biographies of living persons ("BLPs") must be written conservatively and with regard for the subject's privacy. Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Misplaced Pages's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment. "' I contend that Gawker is questionable. I contend that I never ever made such an outrageous comment to Jeff Goldberg. Remove those untruths if you wish to follow Misplaced Pages rules. Further, I never burnt a flag in my life - and of course theres no source for it. people - stop obsessing and reflect reality. press releases are not valid sources. RONN TOROSSIAN 165.254.85.130 (talk) 03:11, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

• As I don't think this is a productive discussion, I recommend that Ronn Torossian contact WMF, instructions at Misplaced Pages:Contact us - Subjects as the subject of a Misplaced Pages BLP article. Liz 10:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. I have and no one has responded. Ronn Torossian 165.254.85.130 (talk) 10:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Ronn, the article does not say that you burned a flag. The article says that RZA did those things. Jytdog (talk) 10:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

So why would something a college student did as a member of an organization I was part of 20 years ago be in my bio? That is absurd and not reflective of me at all. Does not belong in my bio because some college student did something 20 years ago. If its not me remove it. 2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 11:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

The article NOW has no link at all. And if its not about me remove it. RONN TOROSSIAN2604:2000:1444:20A0:CC53:5B41:BF2F:696A (talk) 11:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

And in response specifically to Jytdog http://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Ronn_Torossian/Archive_3#Suggested_sources - read here extensive discussion about why activities of 5wpr should not be on my bio page. So, let me understand, 5wpr - a company I founded and am noteable for cannot be on my page - but a college organization 20 years ago I was part of did something (not me) without a link on WIki - and that stays on my wiki page. Come on people. Ronn Torossian 165.254.85.130 (talk) 12:03, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Do you disagree with the description of you provided in the lifestylesmagazine.com profile? That article tells a very clear story that from about 13 you embraced Ze'ev Jabotinsky's teachings and they have guided your work and life - even just last month you wrote a column citing him. What you and the RZA organization you led is consistent with that. It is unclear why you would want to obfuscate that now. And please stop saying that if something doesn't have a link it needs to be removed - that is not true. The citation needs to be complete, and i have gone and found all the cited references in lexisnexus and they are all good. If you continue to clutter your posts with that, i will stop replying to you. Jytdog (talk) 13:17, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

And is comical to take negatives from lifestyles magazine.com which fawns over me and make it a negative article. Give me a break.

Provide a citation for this supposed flag burning. Cannot even read the citation. And no it does not embrace something i would do as i did not. Ronn Torossian 67.251.203.41 (talk) 14:05, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Provide the citation as I cannot read it. There is no way to verify what you claim. Provide the citation so it is clear. It is against Wiki to put in my bio something an organization i was a part of did. That simply is absurd to define my life via that. And no what a college organization may or may not have done when I was a member is not something that should be in my bio. Endless discussion says 5wpr does not belong in my bio. How can something some college kid did (Or didn't do since I cant even read the citation) define my life. Provide the link.

Further, I collect art, I play basketball - thats about as relevant for Misplaced Pages as is me embracing Ze'ev Jabotinsky who is considered a Zionist legend and Netanyahu's ideological heir. That is not what I am relevant for. Further, you seem to be cherry picking Lifestylesmagazine.com - take all of the positive quotes there why don't you? Ronn Torossian 67.251.203.41 (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

One's bio is not defined by what a college

Citation

Please provide citation for this. I cannot even verify what is written here. Where is citation? A link? "During his undergraduate days at SUNY Albany, he became an activist and advocate for Jewish people, became the head of Religious Zionists of America/Tagar (the youth wing of Betar), and developed a desire to become the Prime Minister of Israel. Under Torossian's leadership RZA brought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus in 1995, burned Palestinian flags, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert, of anti-Semitism, and "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor." And why would this be on my bio if its about an organization and not about me? Put it on RZA page. Ronn Torossian 67.251.203.41 (talk) 13:55, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

10 years ago NY Times ran a profile on me. Maybe 10% was Israel. Then was even more involved in Israel. Why does this bio focus on politics? And its wrong - I worked for Likud not these other groups. theres many sources:

http://www.davidovit.com/articles/Torossian.pdf - long feature in Lifestyles magazine http://www.thejewishweek.com/news/new_york/confident_comeback - TOROSSIAN REPRESENTED OLMERT AND SHARON. http://www.prweek.com/article/1258861/defiant-torossian-takes-pride-pushing-buttons http://news.investors.com/technology/031201-345097-international-relations-israeli-and-us-tech-industries-uneasy-as-sharon-era-begins.htm

hence, Likud would render Goldberg opinion unrelevant.

The larger point is I own a $20MM business - Thats what should be there.

Why is Pam Geller even there? I WROTE AN ARTICLE WITH NETANYAHU FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF AND A FORMER BILL CLINTON SPOKESPERSON - Never Pam Geller h http://thehill.com/blogs/congress-blog/foreign-policy/235832-new-israel-fund-is-no-friend-of-israel

OPEDS ON TECHNOLOGY - http://insights.wired.com/profile/RonnTorossian HUGE NEWS STORY - http://www.newsweek.com/free-cab-rides-emergency-responders-during-blizzard-nyc-302028

http://61.129.118.78/Opinion/book-review/Business-Books-TOP-FIVE-US-Jun-15-2012/shdaily.shtml - top business book according to Shanghai Daily http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/20/nyregion/thecity/20feat.html?_r=0 Mr. Torossian is one of the New Yorkiest practitioners of this quintessentially New York profession

Impossible to counter when there is no one who is concerned about business. Read the links people. Hatchet. Ronn Torossian 67.251.203.41 (talk) 14:16, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

I have edited the statement about RZA to be closer to the source. It now reads: "During his undergraduate days at SUNY Albany, he became an activist and advocate for Jewish people, became the head of Religious Zionists of America/Tagar (the youth wing of Betar), and developed a desire to become the Prime Minister of Israel. RZA brought Binyamin Ze'ev Kahane to speak at the campus in 1993; the group burned Palestinian flags, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert, of anti-Semitism, and "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," according to Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor."

The source provided for the first sentence is the lifestyles magazine article and the Fax source (see below)

The source provided for the 2nd sentence is Fax, Julie Gruenbaum (March 3, 1995). "Money Crunch On Campus: Insufficient funding for Jewish programs at SUNY Albany". The New York Jewish Week. That is a full citation to a reliable source. Links are not required - the source is however available through LexisNexis which is now I accessed it. I also added a quote from it, to support the content: "Ronn Torossian wants $250,000 a year from the local federation to support Jewish students at SUNY Albany. And he wants it now. Well, OK, he concedes, maybe just a few full-time professionals and enough programing money for the group he heads, RZA/Tagar, to bring up all the big-name speakers they can fit into a semester.....Two years ago RZA put up advertisements for Binyamin Kahane's speech with the slogan "Every Jew A.22." The group has burned Palestinian flags on the state Capitol steps, accused the black SUNY Albany president, Patrick Swygert -- who one leader calls a "philo-Semite" -- of anti-Semitism, and in general have "exacerbated racial tensions on campus," says Malcolm Sherman, president of the Albany Community Relations Council and a math professor at the school."

All this is well-sourced and verified. Jytdog (talk) 14:34, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Politics section removal

Drmies how about discussing this? I understand it is a convenient way to tamp down the ranting by the article's subject, but please do read this profile of Torossian and the very, very clear statement of there of his politics (if you don't know who Ze'ev Jabotinsky is see our article) - about which the article says: "Jabotinsky’s picture hangs in Torossian’s office. He has read all of Jabotinsky’s writings and says that his philosophies continue to guide all of his financial and personal decisions." Then have a look at some of his editorials (there are many, many of them):

• Torossian contributions to Arutz Sheva
• Torossian contributions to The New York Observer
• Torossian contributions to The Jewish Press
• Torossian contributions to Algemeiner Journal

and you will perhaps reconsider how important it is to cover politics, to give an adequate biography article of Torossian. I was opposed to this at first also, but the more I read, the most it was clear that the article has a huge hole in it, without this. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 03:04, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Not directly related to this topic, but a key point in the last few months of discussion - both Drmies and Torossian himself made the argument that he's notable as a PR exec and his political activism should be a footnote at most. I don't know if he is actually that notable as a businessman. For all its notoriety, 5W isn't that remarkable a PR agency. If you look at the sourcing, most of the deep-dive profiles come from his company's early years in the mid-'00s, back when it was doing its own PR work and pitching the "brash New Yorker has a PR agency with attitude" story to publications. Since then, it doesn't appear that 5W has done much to merit anything more than the cursory "5W is represented by..." mentions. I'd argue that the politics (whether you include the more contentious student activism) are essential to his notability and there's not much substance beyond PR-pushed puffery beyond it. Mosmof (talk) 04:31, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I would also like Drmies to demonstrate how/why that section is "basically all puff", "really irrelevant stuff", "newspaper mentions are trivial", "sourcing weak", "person is notable for PR", how the political activism, about which paragraphs could be written based on reliable sources, constitute "a few minor actions". This multitude of dismissive reasons presented seems to be Drmies' personal opinion, cited without demonstrating that they are actually valid. Also, "if it's important to career, summarize in two sentences" - is this his résumé or LinkedIn profile? Why does it need to be important to his career?

Anyone claiming that he is notable for PR should be able to demonstrate how he is more notable for PR than politics, rather than stating it as an absolute, obvious fact - it is certainly not obvious to me. Also, what do the sources which mention his PR activities even say that could be used in any meaningful manner in the article? All I see is several adjectives (brash, aggressive, etc.), clients he has represented, his attitude towards his peers (dismissing Howard Rubenstein as "old and tired"), physical characteristics ("6 foot 2 with blunt features and close-cropped brown hair"). Has he done something novel or creative or remarkable in the PR field? He is the owner of a non-notable PR firm - his firm doesn't even have a Misplaced Pages article. His claim that his company is amongst the top 25 PR firms in the US is false - Misplaced Pages abetted him in propagating this lie for years till it was finally removed. His most in-depth PR profile is the New York Times one, and though it seems like he is a big deal because he was featured in the New York Times, it is in the "The City" section - essentially local New York City news. He is only in the news these days because he represents notable clients, from whom he doesn't inherit any notability, and those sources say nothing about Torossian the person. I don't see how a few profiles about his PR stuff (NYT, Forward, LifeStyles Magazine - all of which mention his politics anyway) trump several significant mentions about politics in leading national Israeli newspapers, so much so that his PR becomes all-important and his political activism is dismissed as "basically all puff", "really irrelevant stuff", "a few minor actions". FireflySixtySeven (talk) 06:11, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I have been reading this and obviously see a long history of edits that seem to capture attention.

Let me add to this conversation that I think this article is about a person who no one knew until he owned a PR company. His early politics at Albany University barley registered any notice, as he was one in a million student activists promoting an agenda that he believes in. Big deal - there are so many of those around then, today and will always be. Torossian made news when he became the owner of a PR firm. He became known for his apparent "brash" ways and that is what the news is about. Now that he is notable people are trying to edit this article to make it that he is known for his advocacy, but in fact, he is not that interesting as an activist.

Since he started his firm, Torossian has been featured in several newspapers on his PR style and for the ability of a fairly young person to begin a firm and grow it in the amount of time he has. PR firms are a dime a dozen and many begin and fail within short terms of each other, and his still seems to be going well. If he is notable at all, it is for that PR firm and its growth. This Observer piece that plugs his style along with styles of others in his field (http://observer.com/2014/11/six-questions-for-ronn-torossian-nadine-johnson-peggy-siegal-michael-tavani/) shows that a journalist felt he was interesting enough to be in a roundup piece. There is nothing in this article worthy of wiki mention, other than top point out what he is noted for.

Here, (http://observer.com/2015/01/battling-jewish-titans-alan-dershowitz-and-ronn-torossian-kiss-and-make-up/) the same paper felt that his fight with Alan Desrhowitz made enough news to include him - which shows me he has a voice people may want to hear - or else, who cares what he says about the good professor?

I know that someone here said that his representation of this taxi owner is not news (http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/taxi-boss-deal-stop-bank-seizing-medallions-article-1.2228864) but Torossian seems to get a lot of mention on this topic. One of his people, I presume, tried to add the point of Torossian's part in navigating a peace deal with the NYC cops and the Mayor Bill de Blasio, and user:Huon deleted it saying it didn’t show he had any part of it. I would argue that it showed he was a significant part to be added into the piece as representing both of the parties. That may not prove he put it together, but it cuts to the point that he is known for his clients and his PR work -or else, why mention him and his relationship in the story? If we know anything about PR and news today, most of what we see is placed though the work of PR agents and rarely are these connectors mentioned in the stories; when the PR person is a well known name, like a Ken Sunshine, Edelman and the like, the news media adds their names to spice the story. If he was added, he may not be the person who made the deal happen, but he is known for PR - not politics.

In this piece, when Tom Brady was accused of knowingly being involved in the deflated football scandal, Torossian is commenting for NBC News on the issue (http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/hit-bradys-reputation-could-be-worse-league-discipline-n355011) - again, not worthy of a Wiki mention, but just to note that he was called on to comment because he is again, known for PR.

We cannot use Youtube as references, but we can be independently wise and look up other aspects here. Here, (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEmTC9Mxhjc) he is with CBS Insider on Bill Cosby. Local Fox News (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qNmKIHWjE0) on Alex Rodriguez, and on BBC news, an international news media, on that North Korea incident with the movie, The Interview (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=doLbUQcITlc)

Again, none can be used as Wiki references unless we find the actual clips from the media stations themselves (which the NBC piece seems to be), but it demonstrates the logic of him being known and called on for PR and not for his political views. I have looked, and I do not see many, if any at all, TV spots with him being asked about Israel or US Domestic politics. No one cares what he says on those issues.

His article on Misplaced Pages ought to be focused on what he became known for and that is PR and his firm. That aside, nothing else matters and he is not so interesting. There are tons of people commenting on Israel for the right and many are people who are known for policy and positions of significance to know or effect opinions. Torossian's Israel advocacy is not life changing. His PR skills are, however, called on by credible sources for comment and thought - even if they are over silly and rather inane issues like deflated footballs. That is what drives media today - sadly. Cada mori (talk) 13:55, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Torossian seems to get a lot of mention on this topic

This isn't exactly surprising for a PR exec who has a reputation for promoting himself (even to the point where he overshadows his clients) to the press. You're acting like the press discovered this plucky flack and they keep finding out he does amazing things, and forgetting what publicists do - promote the hell out of their interests to the media. Mosmof (talk) 14:19, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

@Cada mori: other editors here have given a clear statement about any relationship to the subject, commercial or otherwise, of this article. Particularly given the recent history of your own account, can I call upon you to make a statement about any possible conflict of interest here? --_nonsense ferret 14:27, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

user:Mosmof You are making the point. He is known for PR. Nothing more. Cada mori (talk) 14:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope. He's mentioned as a result of his PR effort. This is an important distinction here. He'd also be pretty anonymous if not for the mid-'00s push for publicity and his politics. Mosmof (talk) 14:56, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I have no interest other than sheer curiosity on this matter. I came across this and the conversation is interesting enough here. To the point that I am not sure we disagree on; Mosmof said, “He's mentioned as a result of his PR effort… He'd also be pretty anonymous if not for the mid-'00s push for publicity and his politics.” I would say that his push for PR trumps his politics. His style in getting PR is what made him get news, not Israel or his right wing associations. He is known for his public relations style and even over aggressive behavior at it. Given that, all I suggest is that a Misplaced Pages article on him – if one is even merited, which is also debatable – it’s his public relations style, his efforts to garner that PR for him and his clients, and the ability to sustain a firm for over a decade already make him notable, not anything else.

Cada mori (talk) 19:47, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm sorry y'all, but I don't understand why I should read a bio of the subject on someone's website. We have a biographical article, and I read the lead, and it gives me no reason to believe that his politics are worth mentioning. Nor did that section give me any reason to believe it had any significance. I'm not on this guy's dick; I'm not on anyone's dick. In fact, I don't know this person at all, and I guess I don't care to know him. I also don't care who has a picture of whom in their office. But all of that is irrelevant. We should not have a separate section on someone's political opinions unless that stuff is relevant to that person's reason for being in here in the first place, and if it's relevant, it should be incorporated properly.

  Now, if anyone wishes to argue that the vanity publication