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view · edit Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Can I use a particular article as a source? A1: What sources can be used in Misplaced Pages is governed by our reliable sources guideline, which requires "published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". If you have a question about whether or not a particular source meets this policy, a good place to ask is the Reliable sources noticeboard. Q2: I found a YouTube video, a post on 4chan/Reddit/9GAG/8chan, or a blog that relates to Gamergate. Can I use it as a source in the article? A2: All sources used in the article must comply with Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources. Self-published sources cannot be used for biographical content on a living person. If such sources were used, then gossip, slander and libelous material may find its way into the article, which would a) tarnish the quality of Misplaced Pages's information and b) potentially open up Misplaced Pages to legal action. For further information, please read the guidelines for sources in biographies of living people. Q3: Why is Misplaced Pages preventing me from editing the article or talk page? Why is this article biased towards one party or the other? A3: Content on Misplaced Pages is required to maintain a neutral point of view as much as possible, and is based on information from reliable sources (Vox, The Wall Street Journal, etc.). The article and its talk page are under protection due to constant edit warring and addition of unsourced or unreliably sourced information prohibited by our policy on biographical content concerning living people (see WP:BLP). Q4: The "reliable sources" don't tell the full story. Why can't we use other sources? A4: Verifiability in reliable sources governs what we write. Misplaced Pages documents what the reliable sources say. If those sources are incorrect or inadequate, it is up to other reliable sources to correct this. Misplaced Pages's role is not to correct the mistakes of the world; it is to write an encyclopedia based on reliable, verifiable sources. In addition, this article falls under concerns relating to content on living persons. Sources that go into unverified or unsupported claims about living persons cannot be included at all. Editors should review the talk page archives here before suggesting a new source from non-mainstream sources to make sure that it hasn't been discussed previously.

This article has been mentioned by multiple media organizations: Jan Rothenberger (10 October 2014). "Der Gesinnungskrieg der Gamer". Der Bund (in German). Dass sich Gegner und Befürworter auch auf Misplaced Pages bekriegten, rief mit Jimmy Wales auch den Chef der Webenzyklopädie auf den Plan. Er mahnte beide Seiten zur Ruhe. Rory Cellan-Jones (16 October 2014). "Twitter and the poisoning of online debate". BBC News. I am not going into the rights and wrongs of Gamergate here - there is what looks like a factual account of this interminable saga on Misplaced Pages, although of course there have been disputes about its objectivity. David Jenkins (20 October 2014). "2014: Video gaming's worst year ever". Metro. The Misplaced Pages entry is as good as any at explaining the basics, and shows how the whole movement is based on nothing but the ravings of a female developer's ex-boyfriend and a level of misogyny that you'd find hard to credit existing in the Middle Ages, let alone the modern day. Caitlin Dewe (29 January 2015). "Gamergate, Misplaced Pages and the limits of 'human knowledge'". The Washington Post. But in a paralyzing battle that has shaken the site's notorious bureaucracy and frustrated the very principles on which Misplaced Pages was built, pro- and anti-Gamergate editors hijacked the Misplaced Pages page on that topic — and spent months vandalizing, weaponizing and name-calling over it. David Auerbach (5 February 2015). "The Misplaced Pages Ouroboros". Slate. ... months of chaos, misconduct, and tendentiousness on Gamergate-related pages ... Amanda Marcotte (6 March 2015). "On Misplaced Pages, Gamergate Refuses to Die". Slate. Gamergaters were ultimately unable to use Misplaced Pages to assert their views as if they were objective reality. Still, Misplaced Pages lost the very people who were trying to guard the gates in the first place. What happens to the next victim of a Misplaced Pages harassment campaign if the defenders are getting squeezed out through this pox-on-both-your-houses system? Lauren C. Williams (6 March 2015). "The 'Five Horsemen' Of Misplaced Pages Paid The Price For Getting Between Trolls And Their Victims". Think Progress. It's interesting how a male feminist had to write a blog about it before anybody realized that there are these problems on Misplaced Pages. Fabian Flock; et al. (2015). "Towards Better Visual Tools for Exploring Misplaced Pages Article Development – The Use Case of "Gamergate Controversy"" (PDF). Association for the Advancement of Artificial Intelligence. We present a comparative analysis of three tools for visually exploring the revision history of a Misplaced Pages article. We do so on the use case of "Gamergate Controversy", an article that has been the setting of a major editor dispute in the last half of 2014 and early 2015, resulting in multiple editor bans and gathering news media attention. {{cite news}}: Explicit use of et al. in: |author= (help)

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Discussion of notice

bot archiving

The template says it archives in 5 days, but I think it actually archives every 2 days (ish). Someone with bot knowledge can confirm one way or the other? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:42, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Fixed by adjusting the archive notice template. The problem is that the archiving template, the archive index template, and the archive notice template are all completely distinct and will get out of step with one another from time to time.

As I said in my edit, you may find that the two day archive period is a little on the short side for optimal operation, though it may have been appropriate before the recent tightening of editing restrictions. --TS 18:01, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi TS, I think you might be correct with the two day period being a little on the short side. I think we should have 3 days as a minimum (more than a weekend, for those in countries with "5+2" working weeks), but perhaps going back to the 5 days would be preferable. If there are no objections, I will bold to 3 days, and we can discuss if it should be more. - Ryk72 23:05, 23 May 2015 (UTC) - reping resign Ryk72 02:10, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

As there have been no objections, this is now changed to 3 days. - Ryk72 21:07, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Keep an eye on it. If after a couple of weeks you find that some productive discussions are being prematurely archived by the bot, you may want to increase the period to 5 days or more. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tony Sidaway (talk • contribs) 14:57, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Zad68 changed it 7 days & 5 threads. FYI. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 19:05, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm much more comfortable with those new parameters. --TS 19:15, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Many thanks, Zad68. FYI, I have updated the "Mirzabot" notice box to reflect this change. - Ryk72 00:02, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

GX3 + GG

http://gamepolitics.com/2015/05/27/anita-sarkeesian-anthony-burch-named-bosses-honor-gx3-everyone-games-event#.VWarwM9VhBc Though perhaps better at Anita Sarkeesian's entry? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:48, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't even mention GG, so yes, probably over there. --MASEM (t) 05:51, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

update on arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/

One of our sources, http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/, has been updated. We should edit or delete the sentence which cites this source in light of this update. Chrisrus (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Updated to remove the radio silence bit. Based on the update it looks like there was a miscommunication between Wu & the FBI. — Strongjam (talk) 14:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Now it says that she's expressed frustration, but the authorities have responded that her frustration is not founded and cited evidence, and she has apologetically backed off that assertion. Even if she still maintains face-saving wiggle room that she still thinks her cases have been mishandled by other authorities, she provides no evidence or reason for us to pass such allegations from her along to our readers. Just delete it as a non-event or mistake. Chrisrus (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Miscommunication over one case. Her complaint about lack of action on all of the many threats and harassment against her are still valid. — Strongjam (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

They might or might not be valid, but in this citation the only any evidence provided is also contradicted and retracted. What remains is a vague allegation with nothing to back it up. Chrisrus (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement as it stands now is both true and verifiable. I don't think there is anything left to discuss. — Strongjam (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

While that statement may be true and verifiable, it's not a fair summary of that source. A fair summary of that source would say in appropriate language that that certain allegations were made on a blog that did not check out and were retracted apart from a vague generalization backed up by no evidence. Chrisrus (talk) 16:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope. No reliable source has said this, for the very good reason that saying this might arguably be libel. this discussion is quite possibly libelous as well, as one editor appears to be accusing the subject of committing a crime for which she has been neither charged nor indicted, based on that editor'so personal interpretation of something or other MarkBernstein (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Reporting that someone made a mistaken accusation and retracted it is not accusing anyone of a crime.

Don't take it from me, read arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ yourself and you will agree that it reports that certain allegations were made at the Mary Sue that did not check out and were retracted as a misunderstanding or miscommunication or mistake, apart from a vague generalization backed up by nothing. If you don't think that's just what arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ says, what then does it say?

This article merely repeats this unfounded accusation and omits the fact that the specific allegations turned out to be not true and were retracted and apologized for, which is the main idea of the source. If we're going to include this source, we should not just cherry pick a vague accusation and ignore its main idea. It seems better to delete the whole thing, because it's just about something that we thought was real but wasn't so oops nevermind. Chrisrus (talk) 15:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? Please quote from the article what unfounded accusation is repeated. — Strongjam (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

"Wu has expressed her frustration over how law enforcement agencies have responded to the threats that her and other women in the game industry have received." This misses the main idea of the source and repeats her accusation that the law enforcement agencies have been remiss in responding, a claim not backed up by evidence in this citation. Chrisrus (talk) 16:12, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope, it's a fair assessment of the source. We don't have to investigate any 'evidence'. Perhaps you'd be better off writing a letter to the editor. — Strongjam (talk) 16:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The House Appropriations Committee has just formally supported the call for enforcement of laws against online harassment and Gamergate: ] . Let's drop this unproductive discussion and move on. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

We're not questioning the source so contacting them would not be helpful. This source says she said the response of the authorities has been lacking because of claims to fact that she now says "oops sorry nevermind" about. Chrisrus (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's not focus on one a single tree and miss the whole forest. Take it to WP:RSN if you think the source does not back up the statement. — Strongjam (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The updated source still says she is frustrated in general about law enforcement's response to the situation; the detailed issue around the Columbus call was a mistaken choice of which agency to contact, and she apologized for her mistake once she got to the right one. But there's still her general sentimentes from her op-ed that in general, the lack of law enforcement actions on any of these harassment (not just hers) is frustrating. So the statement is fine with the update. --MASEM (t) 17:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You say we shouldn't ignore the forest and miss the trees, but that would mean providing a holistic summary of what this source contains instead instead of just providing one cherry-picked detail. The fact that she finds the response lacking is just an insignificant opinion without something in the source to indicate that she's right about that. Chrisrus (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, her opinion in this case is not insignificant- it's pretty significant, so we include it. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 03:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

This citation is about some allegations that didn't check out. If we use it, we should say that.

This citation is not about the fact that she says she still believes it's lacking anyway.

Her saying that, even though none of this evidence checked out, is in this citation. But there is no evidence here that it is lacking. We have nothing here but unsubstantiated allegations.

If we retain this source we should tell them what's in it: that she made some allegations that didn't check out and she apologized and retracted it but still thinks the response has been lacking.

Or we dump this citation on "Citation Contains Retraction" grounds. As we say, "retraction is strong evidence of inaccuracy." Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Read Masem's above comment re: still frustrated. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

He's right: it says she still believes it anyway. That doesn't address my point: that's not a fair summary of the citation and misses the main point of the citation and amounts to us repeating a baseless allegation. Chrisrus (talk) 06:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Then change it. You can edit wikipedia pages, can't you? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 06:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

There's no requirements that when we use a source that we can only use the source's whole content in its entirety. We're summarizing, so using a single fact that is buried in a larger article from a reliable source is not a problem. Yes, it is likely the Mary Sue rant and the subsequent articles regarding that call and her initial failed attempt to get enforcement help would not have happened if she had contacted the proper department first, and we wouldn't have that "frustrated" statement. But it did happen, yet even after the article was updated, that factor still persisted, so its fair game for us to use and ignore the rest of the situation. (Remember, this is coming after the situation at PAX.) --MASEM (t) 12:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right, there is no obligation to always summarize a source. However, there is no obligation not to, especially if omitting the main point of a source amounts to passing along a baseless allegation, that's a problem.

To say "Smith was angry that Jones did something wrong" is to pass along Smith's accusation against Jones, something we shouldn't do without proof and important reason to do so. Chrisrus (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

So let's summarize the source holistically. Just that she made those accusations, but they turned out to be wrong, so she restracted them, but still nevertheless maintains that the response is lacking. Chrisrus (talk) 05:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

No, you have events flipped. Prior to that Columbus call (the one she recorded and had the caller's number for evidence) , she reports she had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on other threats she's gotten, but from that was frustrated with the lack of significant response (eg the PAX situation). Then this call happened, one that she was able to record and get a number for, making it something possibly more actionable than previous threats in terms of enforcement, called the Columbus agency (unaward she was calling the wrong department for those types of matters), got even more frustrated with this specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue. And then she was told she did have the wrong department and thus got to the right person. Her frustrations with all other previous attempts still exist and didn't change, what the updated article still presents. --MASEM (t) 14:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Masem is correct -- words I have seldom written! All news reports (including the world's top newspapers) agree that the subject has been exposed to vile harassment and that legal authorities have so far been unable or unwilling to prosecute the offenders. There is absolutely no doubt that the harassment is real or that it has been reported to authorities that range from local police officers to the U. S. Congress. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit check please - Paste magazine statement in "Gamer Identity"

I readded something from Paste magazine a few months ago, in which that article used the word Balkenization to describe the GG situation. Issue was taken with that word specifically (given how the WP article does not seem to reflect on the usage the author was). As such, I reworded the term to be, based on the author's intent, "broadening of the demographic scope", so there should be no issue with that. The diff is here. --MASEM (t) 22:40, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Also as a suggestion for improvement, I'm trying to find a way to show the shifting demographs , likely measured from the ESA, to have as a visual aid in that section, but I can't seem to find a good set of data to work from. (As long as numbers are published, we can safely recreate any graphs under a PD license). --MASEM (t) 22:42, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I don' think Rhodes means that GG was a result of this, but just that it highlighted the differences that were already there "If we’ve long behaved as though there was a community it made sense to talk about in the singular, the divisions sharpened by GamerGate have made it clear that the audience for videogames is far from monolithic. I'm not sure if "broadening of the demographic scope" is quite how I would characterize the authors point. At first read I took it to mean that people who play games are becoming more diverse while the author says "Now, the façade is breaking apart, revealing that what is often referred to as “the gaming community” is, in fact, many communities, made up of people with disparate backgrounds and points of view. It has been that way almost from the beginning.". I would characterize his point as more that GG highlighted the existing diversity of the community and that it's moving away from being a unified identity of itself.— Strongjam (talk) 23:22, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The narrative that I get (and why he explains the history of the word Balkanization) is that while diversity of gamers was always there, the industry which once opted to focus on the young male gamer demographic, has now decided they need to serve all these various demographic groups at the cost of not producing as many games for the young male gamer - it was, as Rhodes writes, a conscious decision to move the industry in that direction. Rhodes accepts that they needed to be more diverse, but how they chose to do that is what Rhodes believed led to the feedback that created the backlash that GG grew from, and why he compared it to Balkanization. He's critical of the industry's response to GG, though not to their aim for trying to be more diverse. --MASEM (t) 23:37, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

"while diversity of gamers was always there, the industry which once opted to focus on the young male gamer demographic" definitely agree on this point. I'm sure there is a better way to say that then "broadening of the demographic scope" which seems imprecise and open to different interpretation, nothing comes to mind at the moment though. Something like "companies having broaden their focus away from the "core gamer"" maybe?. — Strongjam (talk) 23:49, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Maybe "seeking to reach a wider range of demographics in the gamer community instead of focusing on core gamers"? (which implies the demog. was there, but they shifted form the core gamer (which the statement does point out). --MASEM (t) 23:59, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I like that. - Strongjam (talk) 00:02, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

non-neutral lede

I'll start by saying that I am as neutral and objective on this topic as one could possibly be. I don't even understand it well enough to know if I support one side or the other. I am not a gamer or a journalist. I have no horse in this race. I heard about Gamergate and came here to learn more about it. My interest here is simply as a Wikipedian who likes articles to be neutral.

So..the lede on this article seems very one-sided. Not at all neutral. The opening paragraph tells one side of the story using harsh and emotional language (rape, misogynist etc) describing the other side, with no rebuttals from the other side. The second paragraph tells the other side of the story in a seemingly watered down way, that does not paint the other side nearly as badly as the first paragraph did -- and it concludes with rebuttals that essentially discredit the entire paragraph.

I was going to make a bold edit and fix this, however given what looks like a long history of debate on this article, I assumed it would be instantly reverted and I decided to come straight to the talk page. If others agree, I'd be willing to make what I think are reasonable edits that make the lede more neutral. Handpolk (talk) 03:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

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