Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:23, 9 June 2015

Welcome to the Misplaced Pages!

Hello, and Welcome to the Misplaced Pages, Sammy1339! Thanks for the copy edit over on the Bobby Fischer article. Hope you enjoy editing here and becoming a Wikipedian! Here are a few perfunctory tips to hasten your acculturation into the Misplaced Pages experience:

• Take a look at the Misplaced Pages Tutorial and Manual of Style.
• When you have time, you can peruse The five pillars of Misplaced Pages, and assume good faith, but keep in mind the unique style you brought to the Wiki!
• Always keep the notion of NPOV in mind, be respectful of others' POV, and remember your perspective on the meaning of neutrality is invaluable!
• If you need any help, post your question at the Help Desk.
• Explore, be bold in editing, and, above all else, have fun!

And some odds and ends: Boilerplate text, Brilliant prose, Cite your sources, Civility, Conflict resolution, How to edit a page, How to write a great article, Pages needing attention, Peer review, Policy Library, Utilities, Verifiability, Village pump, Wikiquette, and you can sign your name on any page by typing 4 tildes: ~~~~.

Best of luck, Sammy1339, and most importantly, have fun! Ombudsman 21:54, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for August 31

Hi. Thank you for your recent edits. Misplaced Pages appreciates your help. We noticed though that when you edited Secondary growth, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page Cambia. Such links are almost always unintended, since a disambiguation page is merely a list of "Did you mean..." article titles. Read the FAQ • Join us at the DPL WikiProject.

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, DPL bot (talk) 09:13, 31 August 2014 (UTC)

Isil

If you disagree with this redirect's target, you are welcome to discuss it on the talk page, or discuss it at RfD. Thanks! ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:09, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

In reply to your edit summary: typing "isil" into the search box presents ISIL as the first suggestion. Actually performing a search for "isil" returns, in order: Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant, International Society for Individual Liberty then Sun and Moon (Middle-earth). So I'd say everything works as intended at the moment without having to redirect Isil to a disambiguation page when it is not ambiguous with other titles. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 18:28, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

your revert

Your edit to restore bounds testing of civility states that the justification for doing so was that I was involved, but you are involved too, so this seems to be a double standard.  Are you aware that civility is a policy?  Unscintillating (talk) 21:04, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Unscintillating: Actually I just didn't think it was appropriate to silence one user like that, even if what he said was asinine. I did review the hat bound guidelines and they seemed to indicate that the addition of hat bounds should be made by an uninvolved person, so I thought it was appropriate to remove them. I apologize if my interpretation was wrong. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:10, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

So you made a robotic revert based on your interpretation of what you read, but you are not concerned about Misplaced Pages's public-facing image?  I'm not trying to go anywhere with this, I'm more concerned with the level of incivility tolerance which Misplaced Pages has acquired in the past five years.  I would also dispute that I was involved.  BTW, what was the guideline?  Unscintillating (talk) 21:28, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

@Unscintillating: See the bold instructions at Template:Hidden archive top. I don't think I understand what your concern is or why you blanked the comment in the first place but I'll assume you had a reason and it's not really a big deal. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:39, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

• Hatting is not blanking.  The text remains available.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• So you reverted without knowing or at least understanding what you were reverting.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
• Thanks for identifying the template instructions.  FYI, the relevant guideline is WP:TPO.  Unscintillating (talk) 22:11, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Special Barnstar

Hello Sammy1339, I'm Rebecca, one of the participants in Phoenix Marie's AfD and DRV. I'm glad there are reasonable users on WP, like yourself, who realize that the most recent change to the WP:PORNBIO guideline was unfair and that it excludes many notable porn stars. That being said, if a porn related article was deleted at AfD, it is certainly not going to be restored at DRV. Many users, myself included, suspect that most DRV participants are anti-porn based on their comments and actions, but there is nothing we can do about it, since many of them are administrators. It's too late now, but starting a DRV for Phoenix Marie was not a good idea. Never take porn-related articles to DRV, it's a terrible waste of time. I wasted an entire month of my life that I'll never get back on Deauxma and her article wasn't restored or even unsalted. Taking porn related articles to DRV is exactly what led to the PORNBIO guideline being changed. Not only did editors refuse to restore Deauxma and Elexis Monroe's articles at DRV, they also changed the PORNBIO guideline just to make them fail it. This lead to the deletion of many articles, including Phoenix Marie's. I really don't want to see PORNBIO get stricter in the future. This would lead to the deletion of even more biographies on notable porn stars. Commenting on the DRV can also lead to a heated argument and you becoming the target of WP:WIKIHOUNDING. I know because it's happened to me. Unfortunately, the topic of pornography is stigmatized by many editor's the same way that it is stigmatized in our society. The best place to discuss the notability of porn stars is AfD since it's usually quite fair and these problems rarely occur there. Rebecca1990 (talk) 17:49, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

Edit warring on image

Please explain your repeated removal of the image of battery cages for hens on at least two article pages. Your repeated removal is close to edit warring and you have not entered into any discussion about your edits.__DrChrissy (talk) 00:01, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

October 2014

Hello, I'm BracketBot. I have automatically detected that your edit to Maria Ozawa may have broken the syntax by modifying 2 "{}"s. If you have, don't worry: just edit the page again to fix it. If I misunderstood what happened, or if you have any questions, you can leave a message on my operator's talk page.

List of unpaired brackets remaining on the page:

• with occasional English}}</ref> Her mother is Japanese and her father is French-Canadian.<ref>{{cite web| url=http://web.archive.org/web/20110324033837/http://rp1.abs-cbnnews.com/entertainment/03/
• com/Maria-Ozawa.html|title=(Maria Ozawa Uncensored Videos)|accessdate=2012-03-08|publisher=XVN]|language=Japanese}} (The XVN website was closed on December 15, 2008.)</ref> The material from the

It's OK to remove this message. Also, to stop receiving these messages, follow these opt-out instructions. Thanks, BracketBot (talk) 02:56, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

tyson

just curious - please watch this video of tyson's standard talk on the hayden planetarium website here - just 4 minutes. now read tyson's apology: here.

Thoughts? Jytdog (talk) 00:07, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Yes, that's pretty embarrassing for him. However, I think you may be forgetting the enormous number of ridiculously vitriolic attacks that were coming out of conservative media, the overwhelming majority of which were about completely silly minutiae which - except in that case - were irrelevant to the point he was making in his talks. They also accused him of fabricating quotes, not just taking that Bush quote out of context. That may explain why his response was more than just an admission of guilt. I wouldn't object to mentioning this particular situation in the the Federalist article, and in fact I wrote 3 sentences on it there, which were deleted. If you're going to mention the whole "controversy," it's necessary to clarify that nonsense is nonsense, and the subject doesn't have enough weight to merit the lengthy block of text required to do that. --Sammy1339 (talk) 00:21, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

i don't think you understand where i am coming from. i have been arguing against including anything. you are singing to the choir. but i am really asking - did you watch it? Jytdog (talk) 00:24, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Yes. It's pretty ugly. --Sammy1339 (talk) 00:25, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

yes. honestly, until i watched that, i thought the attacks were all just a bunch of ugly political shit-slinging. but this was dead on, and the talk was apparently not a one-off, but a talk tyson gave a lot of times. ugly i checked out the other charges that the bloggers were making, and 99% of it is just ugly and twisted. but they clean busted him on this, and my sense of fairness says Misplaced Pages can't bury that. tyson apologized for that and the rest he has (rightly) blown off. so if you face the ugly on both sides... well, you end up where you end up. i ended up with my recommendation - be honest on both sides. shit slinging, got one thing dead-on right, tyson apologized for that one thing. you don't have to agree. but i wanted you to understand. thanks for your time. Jytdog (talk) 00:32, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

with respect to this, you generally do not do anything dramatic with another editor's comments, like you did, without their consent. if i had wanted to address you on the article talk page, i would have done that. i recommend you don't do that going forward. Jytdog (talk) 01:16, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jytdog: My apologies. I'll remove it. --Sammy1339 (talk) 01:18, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

too late. you did it already. just don't mess around with other people's comments going forward without their consent. i feel all violated. blech. Jytdog (talk) 01:20, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Sorry. I don't really understand though: I only quoted you, without modifying what you said. It's not like it was a confidential conversation - it's here on a talk page for everyone to see. --Sammy1339 (talk) 01:23, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

again, IF i had wanted to talk with you on the main Talk page, I would have. i chose to address you here. it just shows a lack of respect for what other people want to do what you did, and it is generally not done. (pay attention - you will have a very hard time finding other examples) If you look at the talk page guidelines and the help page about Talk pages you will see there is a strong instruction there - don't mess with other people's comments. it does not explicitly instruct editors not to copy/paste... but again, this is the first time i have ever seen someone do it at all - definitely the first time it was done to me. it's OK, it is not the end of the world, and not as bad as actually changing my comments. you definitely didn't do something that bad. but it was still weird and violate-y. just don't do it again without asking. Jytdog (talk) 01:43, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Thank you

Yes I did notice. Thank you for mentioning that it should be "User:Ssven2/....." and not "Ssven2/.....". I have already done it and moved the references. Ssven2 (talk) 16:07, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Ask for undelete

Hello and thanks for commenting on my article. I am here to persuade that as you said wiki is not a cookbook, however, I can agree at all as my page-hong kong style beef entrails , is a page with all the details about the beef entrails, and the cooking methods are also the main focus on itself because people in Hong kong and China, has some traditional thoughts on how the beef entrail is served. It is welcome to give suggstions so we can improve the page, and I hope consensus can be built.Last but not least, please give a chance and not to delete the work. Thanks Janicefsc (talk)

Joseph Crabtree

I see that you tagged Joseph Crabtree (fictional polymath) as being too in-universe. I've actually tried to address that very issue, and other than the dispute over the word revealed vs. invented in the lead (see the talk page), can you offer any other suggestions on how to clarify the fictional nature of this person? WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 02:18, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

• @WikiDan61: The main problem is that throughout the article it is not clear who is making up this story, or these parts of the story. I can't tell just from reading it if this all comes from a hoax in the 1954 talk, or if it was built up over time, or if it was from a novel. Take a look at the following paragraph:

"Scholars (members) of the Crabtree Foundation meet annually to venerate his life. There are now over 400 scholars of the Foundation, and scholars, in the first President’s words, “scattered as they are over the face of the world”, have established overseas chapters in Australia, Portugal, Italy and Southern Africa each of which holds its own annual celebration of Joseph Crabtree. Their findings have established the international scope and diversity of Crabtree’s life and achievements."

It's not even clear that this is a joke. Are these real people who actively participate in an in-joke, or are they fictional scholars who study Crabtree in Crabtree's fictional universe? This sort of problem continues - the information about Crabtree in the subsequent paragraphs all needs to be attributed, no only to avoid sounding like a statement of actual fact, but for the sake of clarity. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:30, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

OK. I understand your point. To clarify for your own understanding (and I'll try to rewrite the article to bring this out more clearly), the Crabtree Orations are a series of lectures given at the University College of London wherein noted scholars are invited to come and update the ever-expanding joke that is the life of Joseph Crabtree. The man never existed, but the scholars who participate in the orations are all very real. This has been going on for 60 years now. I'm not a big enough nerd to get the joke, but someone must be enjoying it! WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 13:18, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

@WikiDan61: It kind of strikes me that the only conceivable purpose of this article is to ruin this joke. I mean, if you had had fewer scruples, you could have written it up as a hoax - you know what to do basically, just use a lot of offline references that nobody will check up on; and it doesn't matter if the books you cite say anything at all about the subject. But if the title just right out and says "fictional," well, everybody who hears one of these lectures is going to google the name and find that out immediately. If I were you I'd let Salvidrim!'s AfD go through, just for the sake of not being a killjoy. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I really hope that the people attending these orations understand that they are a joke, or the UCL would be guilty of perpetrating a massive hoax and I, as a student of that university, would be massively pissed. WikiDan61_ReadMe!! 18:32, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

@WikiDan61: What could the joke possibly be, other than the deception? It sounds like you lack a sense of humor. By the way, are you aware of the works of S. Morgenstern? --Sammy1339 (talk) 18:48, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

List of similarities between Undeclared and Freaks and Geeks

Sorry, but this article had already been PRODded by Everymorning and de-PRODded here, so it cannot be PRODded again. You will have to take it to WP:AFD. JohnCD (talk) 21:17, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

• @JohnCD: Thanks for catching that. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:19, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Listing of porn award nominations

Hello, Sammy1339. This message is being sent to inform you that there currently is a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Morbidthoughts (talk) 05:46, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe there was consensus but the issue is not egregious for me to contest further. Morbidthoughts (talk) 23:12, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

It ain't always easy to reverse oneself

...but thank you for this. Schmidt, 00:46, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

NPOV discussion

Thanks for the input. I'm going to have to get back to it later. Though I strongly feel I am being unjustly accused of being bad I have agreed to avoid topic until June 11. You can see the ] edits I tried to make and the outcome. Why have a BOLD policy if you get threatened with a block for using it? I'll have more later but I think it's safe to close the current listing with no conclusion reached. Thanks for trying.Getoverpops (talk) 00:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Getoverpops: I really should advise you not to get back to it later. Even if you are completely right, at this point you have a reputation on this issue and people's kneejerk reaction will be to oppose you. I also advise you to avoid the topic of U.S. politics entirely while your topic ban is in effect, just to be safe. You need to pick your battles, and there are other dragons to slay. You've made it apparent you have a lot to bring to the table, so I suggest putting it to use somewhere where you won't immediately end up in another heated conflict. The culture of Misplaced Pages is such that users who make constructive edits on a variety of topics are much less likely to be viewed suspiciously or accused of bias. --Sammy1339 (talk) 01:42, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sammy1339:Thanks for the input. However, I signed up specifically because that particular topic had been pointed out to me and is in very bad shape. I strongly disagree with the self imposed ban and feel that even the cause was not adequately justified to me. Regardless, when the time comes I will explain why I disagree with your review of my information. I think my big mistake was just bringing back an old NVOP claim which had become confused and muddled. I would be happy to share the info with you once the topic ban is taken care of. Getoverpops (talk) 02:32, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Sammy, I appreciate your recent edit in that I understand you were just trying to help with the stay out of politics part. However, the edits were on my sandbox page. I don't think that counts as editing in general since it's a place where most edit guidelines don't apply.Getoverpops (talk) 13:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I think it does. --Sammy1339 (talk) 13:52, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Well I disagree and disagree with the change you made to a page that was not about the off limit topic. However, I think you are trying to watch out for me so I can accept the edits. I hope when things time out you would be open to a reversion on the article. If I see other things I will add them to the sandbox page since it's the best place I know to, for lack of a better term, keep notes.Getoverpops (talk) 13:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

You should refrain from using your sandbox page or any other page to make edits that might be construed as violating your topic ban, as this may be used against you next time you are nominated for a block, which, given your stated intentions, seems likely to happen. --Sammy1339 (talk) 14:01, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

As I said, last time I think the block was totally unfair and I still wish to discuss that in the future. I don't think a topic block is at all reasonable so long as there is no reversion war. Even last time there wasn't other than my misunderstanding of the neutrality tag. Recently I made a series of article edits but that conforms to BOLD. After they were undone I wanted to move to a discussion of the issue. However, that didn't happen before I was told to take a brake. Since you seem to know more about this, how should I keep personal notes as to issues with the article? Getoverpops (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

You can keep notes offline if you like, and bring up your concerns on the talk page after your topic ban expires. (You should not follow WP:BOLD right after coming back from a topic ban; instead, assume your edits will be controversial and raise them on the talk page first.) I must reiterate, though, that you are going to be fighting an uphill battle and this might not be worth your time. The issue has been given an extensive hearing, twice, so when you bring it up a third time you can expect the reception to be chilly. Especially if you will be relying on more references to Gerard Alexander and partisan sources such as conservative think tanks, the consensus against your proposals is not likely to change. --Sammy1339 (talk) 14:27, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to have to come back to the source quality disagreement. The NVOP was just one request (the second was a restart) and I clearly needed to have a more organized argument. The big issue was I started with the wrong question. I tried to evolve the topic but that wasn't the best plan. Regardless, what we have now are two NVOP's that don't really answer the newer questions I've asked. I guess you are right about the BOLD part. I will keep that in mind going forward. Getoverpops (talk) 14:58, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

Dru yoga

Hi Sammy1339. Nice and short, well done. I'll follow your example on the Dutch Misplaced Pages and shorten it. BLP: I should have thought of that. Would you like to advise me on whether to go and ask for an SPI? If not, no problem. Regards, Sander1453 (talk) 17:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Sander1453: Yes, I think it makes sense to do an SPI. I was going to do it myself but didn't feel like investing the time in collecting all the diffs. --Sammy1339 (talk) 17:08, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll do it tonight, after work. Meanwhlie the whole bunch (4 or 5 of them) moved over to the Dutch Misplaced Pages, did disruptive editing and were proven socks, by CU request. Sander1453 (talk) 18:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

May 2015

Your recent editing history at List of vegans shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. To resolve the content dispute, please do not revert or change the edits of others when you get reverted. Instead of reverting, please use the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. The best practice at this stage is to discuss, not edit-war. See BRD for how this is done. If discussions reach an impasse, you can then post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection.

Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly. Betty Logan (talk) 17:36, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

Mattress

Just to let you know that I wrote a long reply to this post of yours, then decided not to post it on that talk page (I find that page quite frustrating), but was going to post it here instead. Then the video happened, so I'd want to write it differently now. I wanted you to know that I hadn't simply not responded. Sarah (SV) 21:23, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: There's no hurry and posting it here is fine. Yes, the talk page is frustrating. --Sammy1339 (talk) 02:09, 6 June 2015 (UTC)

• So let me get this straight: it's a BLP violation to have the target visible on a non-functioning redirect, but not in page history? I really don't think you can have this both ways. If this is a dire BLP issue that needs prompt excising, see WP:BLPN. Otherwise, let RfD run its course. --BDD (talk) 13:44, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

• @BDD: There was already a BLPN discussion on using the name, which is linked from the RfD discussion. The closer found conditional consensus for including the name under terms which there has been no attempt made to meet, and the default has been that the name is not included. As I am not an admin I do not have the power to delete the name from page history, but I have never used it myself. --Sammy1339 (talk) 13:49, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So it's likely to be deleted at RfD, and that's fine. Say WP:SNOW delete and if enough people do, I might even close it early. I'm not on a crusade to keep this name or anything. I just want a regular discussion. --BDD (talk) 13:51, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@BDD: As the nominator I cannot vote SNOW, but I did state it should be deleted immediately. --Sammy1339 (talk) 13:54, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok. Feel free to make a note at WP:AN, WP:BLPN, or somewhere if you want to try to get an early close. Just know that until the redirect is deleted, you can't really expunge the name anyway, and it may be counterproductive to try. --BDD (talk) 13:56, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@BDD: Thanks. I'll make a note at AN. --Sammy1339 (talk) 13:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Sammy, I'm here to ask you to remember that there are five people involved in this to whom BLP applies, not one. Four of the names are known. I'm concerned that your posts imply that four of those people are lying or don't matter, and that you question whether what they say should even be called sexual-assault allegations.

We have to write the article (and talk page) by maintaining apparently contradictory positions. It can be done, though it needs careful writing. There's just no point in adopting a strong view, because we don't and can't know what happened. Sarah (SV) 19:19, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

@SlimVirgin: Well, three of those people don't matter. They are not notable and their names aren't even public - excluding them from mention in Misplaced Pages isn't libel. As for using "sexual assault", most people understand this term to mean rape, while the Columbia disciplinary guidelines use the term much more broadly.

To address your central concern, however, I understand that you find it inappropriate to impugn the credibility of a rape accuser. Many people feel this way, and it is in large part what Mattress Performance is about. However, Misplaced Pages policy tells us to protect the presumption of innocence of people accused of crimes, which inescapably means either placing doubt on the accusations or silencing them. The imperative to refrain from suggesting that someone may be guilty of a crime takes precedence over the desire not to imply that the accuser is mistaken or dishonest. This is what the presumption of innocence means. Is it just? I don't care.

If you wanted to, you might have enough clout get special protections for the dignity of rape accusers written into BLP policy. I would oppose this, and at present there are no such provisions. --Sammy1339 (talk) 21:21, 9 June 2015 (UTC)