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Agriculture Start‑class Low‑importance

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Criticism section represents a European centric worldview

This entire section, though fairly short, represents an apparently European POV. The practice described (glyphosate as a pre-harvest desiccant) is quite rare in the US, for example. I don't know about other countries. Additionally, the single source reference is a heavily WP:FRINGE point of view. I'll work on it over the next few days as I get time. Meanwhile, anyone else is very welcome to do so as well. Thanks! Adv4Ag (talk) 05:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

Before i would believe that "the practice is quite rare in the US" i would need to see sourcing on this claim. By all that i can glean from clues about this process, it seems fairly common and widespread in North America by my reckoning. It's done on lentils and garbanzos in Idaho. It's done on wheat. It's done on sugarcane. It's done on oats. These are crops i know use glyphosate for the pre-harvest treatment, with some regularity.

As for it being a "European" view, what does this mean exactly? I sit in Boston, and i am glad to see this criticism in the article, based on what i know about the chemical and its usage and its potential effects on the human organism.

I would like to see this article developed more, with sources on how common the practice is, and how much residue enters food products as a result.

SageRad (talk) 10:05, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Entire "criticism" section has been deleted by another user here without mentioning that was being done, only citing removal of a source that the editor called "extremely crap source" -- i don't like this editing practice. If we're deleting a category then do it honestly and open for debate. And, by the way, citing the "Glyphosate Working Group" on benefits of using glyphosate for desiccation is an "extremely crap source" in itself, clearly, as if we're citing the maker of a car about how awesome the car is, better than all others... inherent bias. So, the whole article could do with a rewrite, as it currently echoes the industry ad copy and is a glossy brochure. SageRad (talk) 10:23, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I mean, speaking of sourcing this article to the Glyphosate Working Group, we might as well just source it to Nurse Loves Farmer and call it a day. SageRad (talk) 10:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Calling out to the editor Smartse for comment, as i commented on their edit. SageRad (talk) 10:59, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the ping. I was being bold removing that but I stand by it. First of all, criticism sections are best avoided per WP:CRIT. More importantly though, the source presents zero evidence that glyphosate used as a desiccant is a substantial source of glyphosate in human urine and yet the text presented it as though it was. WP:MEDRS obviously applies here and that source fails miserably. You're right that the other sources are poor as well, but at least they aren't being used to support anything controversial. I've had a brief look for source myself, but haven't been able to find anything particularly useful. I'd also like more information about how frequently desiccants are used and on which crops they are used, but that information may not have been published. SmartSE (talk) 12:51, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing, Smartse. I appreciate bold editing, but only when the editor is willing to engage in dialog is there is some. I agree that a better source could be used for critique of the use of glyphosate as a desiccant on crops. There is critique out there. Today i do not have time to pursue this. I also agree that it would be very relevant to the article to quantify use of glyphosate as a desiccant, though i seem to recall this information not being readily available, as you confirm. It's done on many crops, by the way -- on legumes, like garbanzos and lentils -- as well as many grains, not only wheat -- for example, there is a recent controversy over glyphosate use as a desiccant on oats, with one grain buyer announcing a policy to refuse oats finished with glyphosate. Perhaps i can reinstate the "controversy" section as there genuinely is controversy, and cite a report on that topic. SageRad (talk) 14:32, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

After the above, which i considered good dialogue, SmartSE came and erased my contribution with this revert, giving reason "nothing whatsoever to say that this was a controversy. will r on tp later" whereas, my contribution most certainly did speak to a controversy about crop desiccation, specifically with glyphosate on oats. There is one miller who refuses glyphosate-finished oats, and another one who criticizes that, in one of the linked articles in The Western Producer, which is certainly a reasonably good source here and nothing anyone would ever call "fringe" or whatever. So i reverted my edit back into existence here. I hope that further dialog ensues here, or the edit stays. I will not edit war, but i will expect good dialog and logical edits. It is certainly an area of controversy in the world of crop desiccation, and speaks to potential changes in nutrition as well as other physical characteristics in the resultant grain through the use of chemical desiccants. SageRad (talk) 16:14, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

My bad, in that SmartSE did not delete my text, but removed the "Controversy" category, whereas i do think this surely speaks to a controversy regarding chemical desiccation, and i edited the text to show that now. It seems a bit unwieldy and too long to me now, but given that SmartSE thought there was no controversy there, i chose to highlight the controversy. Anyway, very busy today, can return to this another day. SageRad (talk) 16:22, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's deal with the 'controversy' below. I don't think there is much else to say, other than we need more sources! SmartSE (talk) 17:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Desiccants

It should be noted that numerous other substances have been used as desiccants, such as

• sulfuric acid,
  
• sodium chlorate, magnesium chlorate,
  
• potassium cyanate,
  
• calcium cyanamide,
  
• 4,6-dinitro-2-methyl phenol ("dinitro-o-cresol"), dinoseb,
  
• pentachlorophenol salts,
  
• aminotriazole/amitrole,
  
• bis(ethylxanthogene) trisulfide, sodium and potassium ethylxanthogenate,
  
• endothal,
  
• ethepon,
  
• uronium sulfate.
  

Some of them (sulfuric acid in potatoes, chlorates in cotton, uronium sulfate in fruit trees etc.) are still in use. Cheers, --37.49.110.89 (talk) 22:12, 26 March 2015 (UTC)

Controversy

I added this section again, as follows, and used it for an example of one specific controversy. I would like if others would add general criticism of the use of chemical desiccants as well in this section, or other individual issues.

In April 2015, Grain Millers, Inc., one of the largest oat buyers in western Canada, announced a new policy of refusing oats on which glyphosate has been used as a desiccant or crop finisher, saying that it affects the integrity of the groats as well as lowering levels of beta-glucan in the food product, thereby affecting "Heart Healthy" certification.

References

1. Arnason, Robert (22 April 2015). "Oat buyer says no glyphosate pre-harvest". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
2. Arnason, Robert (30 April 2015). "Buyer refuses oats desiccated with glyphosate due to quality loss". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
3. Arnason, Robert (28 May 2015). "Richardson Milling says glyphosate dessication acceptable for its oats". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.

SageRad (talk) 14:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Where is a source that calls this a controversy? It seems to be your own interpretation that it is controversial rather than what the sources state. We should just include the content rather than labelling it with a POV section header. And why do you want more general criticism added as opposed to neutral content? SmartSE (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

One group is saying one thing and another group is saying another, in a fairly contentious way. That's a controversy. I do want this section to also contain any other criticism of chemical desiccation in general as well as relating to any specific chemical if such realities arise from myself or any other editor. SageRad (talk) 17:54, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Err no it's not, that's most certainly your own interpretation. I suggest we have a section on restrictions where we include the bans in Austria and Switzerland and can include this there. This is such a minor point in the grand scheme of the subject, that it barely needs mentioning (WP:WEIGHT]). SmartSE (talk) 18:07, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh wow, so we're gonna be like this, eh? SageRad (talk) 18:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I happen to think it's important and it's worth telling in the article. SageRad (talk) 18:10, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Like what?! I've asked you to present evidence that it was controversial and you've produced none. SmartSE (talk) 18:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Like super-semantic about what is a controversy if there is not another source calling this a "controversy" with that word itself. SageRad (talk) 18:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

So what we've got is Nancy Ames, a specialist in oats, expressing that she hasn't heard if glyphosate affecting quality of oats, though she has heard of it affecting quality of wheat. Passage is as follows:

Nancy Ames, an oat and cereal grain expert with Agriculture Canada in Winnipeg, was surprised by the Grain Millers announcement. She has never heard of glyphosate compromising oat quality.
 “I’ve looked through all of the literature and there’s really nothing out there on this,” Ames said. “There has been some research on spraying glyphosate… and its effect on the quality of wheat…. There were some effects on increasing protein and it may have reduced starch.”


How does this equate to "scientists and farmers"? "Other millers" is fair, as there are two other millers in the sources, and there is "a scientist" it seems, in these sources. SageRad (talk) 18:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC) As i think about it more, perhaps we're talking past one another. Do you mean to ask me to provide sources to document that there's a controversy about the oats desiccation, or about chemical desiccation in general? SageRad (talk) 18:21, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, i would call this edit warring at this point. I hear the words "millers, farmers, and scientists" to mean multiples of each of those categories, and yet there are no farmers, a couple millers, and one scientist, who has a voice in the articles i posted. I won't revert it but i'll just note this. I'm really busy today. SageRad (talk) 18:24, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

one buyer of one crop in a province in canada. the biggest miller of that crop in all of North America says meh. WP is not an indiscrimate collection of factoids. Jytdog (talk) 20:18, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not against including it somewhere, but it's definitely not NPOV to say it is controversial and I haven't seen any high-quality sources that say that desiccation is controversial either. SageRad you had a fair point about my wording with the plurals though - I had just reworded it but got caught up with you two rving each other and thought it best not to replace it for now. Please let's try to be civilised and concentrate on content. SmartSE (talk) 21:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Note that user Jytdog deleted my comment from this page, imperiously, for it was a comment on his imperiousness and he didn't like that. Quite classic multi-level imperiousness that censors others and stifles dialogue. Very bad behavior. And then to revert my edit with the note "you are pretty close to 3RR on this now..." -- clearly a threat of action, and he has taken action against me many many times in the past, and he has seemed to follow me around in a WP:HOUND way.... and that's just not cool. Not cool. SageRad (talk) 12:12, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

So, here is what i want to include, which was worked on by myself and SmartSE. I find it interesting and relevant, and hoped that there would be a section in the article that would include this and any other controversies about desiccation of crops with chemicals. We can work on more sourcing:

In April 2015, Grain Millers, announced that it was refusing oats in which glyphosate had been used as a desiccant, stating that it affected the integrity of the groats and lowered levels of beta-glucan. Other millers, scientists and farmers noted that they were not aware of published evidence that glyphosate affected the quality of oats.

References

1. Arnason, Robert (22 April 2015). "Oat buyer says no glyphosate pre-harvest". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
2. Arnason, Robert (28 May 2015). "Richardson Milling says glyphosate dessication acceptable for its oats". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
3. Arnason, Robert (30 April 2015). "Buyer refuses oats desiccated with glyphosate due to quality loss". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.

SageRad (talk) 12:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

At the risk of repeating myself, there are still no sources which describe this as controversial and this is a crucial point in regards to NPOV, not merely semantics. As I mentioned before Jytdog removed it, I also have concerns with weight as it is only one miller on one crop in one region of one country. There are many other more relevant sources which could be used and if you are only searching for controversies to include here, you've really misunderstood what we're aiming to do. SmartSE (talk) 13:01, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

SmartSE, i heard your concern before when you removed the "Controversy" section yet kept the text about this. I do think it's a controversy but i'd be okay to include this issue in some other form. Other reports on this topic which help to show that it's picked up by media. I heard of it first in The Western Producer, yet when i search on "glyphosate oats" on Google News i get a dozen or two stories, including:

• The Observer: "Oats on forefront in industry news"

Oats may not be on the list of minor, or at least specialty crops on the Canadian Prairies these days, but a recent decision from a major buyer of the commodity has certainly put the crop at the forefront of industry news. On April 20, Grain Millers which owns several oat milling facilities including one at Yorkton sent out a memo stating it will no longer accept any oats and/or oat products which have been treated with glyphosate. The move away from accepting oats where glyphosate if applied in the fall is a significant step for Grain Millers as many growers who straight combine oats use glyphosate to hasten and even up crop maturity. The decision is certainly creating its level of controversy within the oat sector.

I would say that this story is a reliable source showing that it's weighty and holds controversy

Because this new sourcing shows weight and controversy, i am going to reinstate the text with this new source. Note that this is not edit warring, and i only say that because Jytdog threatened me with his recent revert in the comment, saying "You're getting pretty close to 3RR..." so note well that this is not a revert of the same, and not an edit war. If you think it is, then please talk here. If you wish to revert this with the new information and sourcing then please talk here. We can do this in a fair and civil way. SageRad (talk) 11:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll just point out too that this article was on my watchlist when SageRad made this addition yesterday, I and was planning to remove the content when I got to it this morning with the weight concerns SmartSE and Jytdog brought up. Right now, it doesn't look like it has enough weight for passing mention in the article based on the current sources. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

I added content about the oats issue to the page again, with the addition of a new source that establishes notability of the issue in the industry ("forefront of industry news") and controversy, directly, as other editors here have been asking for, even though it was clear to me that it was a controversy already, and i believe it was already reasonably weighty to include. Here is what i have added now:

In April 2015, Grain Millers, announced that it was refusing oats in which glyphosate had been used as a desiccant, stating that it affected the integrity of the groats and lowered levels of beta-glucan. Other millers and one scientist noted that they were not aware of published evidence that glyphosate affected the quality of oats. It has been called a notable and controversial issue in the grain industry.

References

1. Arnason, Robert (22 April 2015). "Oat buyer says no glyphosate pre-harvest". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
2. Arnason, Robert (28 May 2015). "Richardson Milling says glyphosate dessication acceptable for its oats". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
3. Arnason, Robert (30 April 2015). "Buyer refuses oats desiccated with glyphosate due to quality loss". The Western Producer. Retrieved 8 June 2015.
4. Daniels, Calvin (30 April 2015). "Oats on forefront in industry news". Carlyle Observer. Retrieved 10 June 2015.

Short and sweet, and reliably sourced. SageRad (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Go for it. Way to follow WP:DR, be constructive and civil, SageRad. --Elvey 18:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Possible sources

• FSA guide to cereal residues - mentions how use of strobilurins has increased use of glyphosate in cereals. Good for controlling blackgrass.
• Potato haulm destruction good historical info from US.
• Distinguishes between desiccants and pre-harvest hcide.
• A very thorough review of pre-harvest glyphosate use on UK cereals. The best source I've come across so far.
• SmartSE (talk) 18:25, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

• UK government HGCA that may help to define what is "pre-harvest treatment herbicide" or "harvest aid" versus "desiccant". Also gives percent of bread tested that contains glyphosate, if useful. May be useful to compile a list of terms used for this group of treatments that seem to be very similar, and idfferent in subtletlies or in name only sometimes.

SageRad (talk) 19:52, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

"Controversy" --> "Market Acceptance"_"Market_Acceptance"-2015-06-10T14:55:00.000Z">

I find there to be actual controversy around the practice. I think the renaming of the category, which was done without discussion beforehand, is a significant change, and so i want to note it here, and that i think it puts a biased positive spin on what is actually controversy. "Market acceptance" feels similar to saying "pre-owned car" instead of "used car", an attempt to make it seem better by changing the term. We could just as logically call this section "Market rejection" as that is more accurately what it's about. Would that be acceptable to the other editors here? SageRad (talk) 14:55, 10 June 2015 (UTC)_"Market_Acceptance""> _"Market_Acceptance"">

I withdraw this concern. I think "Market acceptance" is actually a fairly good category name for this. I did want to note this change on the talk page. I do think there is controversy beyond what the market will accept, though it's a reasonable proxy for it. SageRad (talk) 15:04, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Concerns on major edit

User Jytdog and other editors, i have some concerns about this major edit:

• A lot of crops are left off the list of those on which chemical desiccation is used. I understand sourcing is probably the issue here, and i thank Jytdog for adding sources where s/he did. I think we can work harder to source the other ones instead of deleting them. Perhaps a "citation needed" tag would be more in order than deleting them? I think so.
• Major re-write of the very issue of the oats that we just spent SO MUCH TIME talking about and working out, here and on my own talk page. I do NOT think that's good editing etiquette. I don't think it's good process. Jytdog removed several of my sources, and changed the language significantly, toward his typical direction, that of minimizing the appearance of potential harm by agrochemicals. That's not cool, not cool at all. Almost to the point of needing a dispute resolution call-out on this. Just DON'T DO THIS Jytdog. You continue to show a pattern of deleting the work of others rashly.
• Lastly, "There are some exceptions to the wide acceptance and use of chemical dessication" reads to me like a glossy brochure's fine print. We are NOT a glossy brochure for the agrochemical industry at Misplaced Pages.

SageRad (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

What i've done now is to restore the text that we had arrived at on the oats issue. I haven't changed the other things but i noted them here. SageRad (talk) 16:36, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

yes nothing can be in Misplaced Pages that is not sourced. I removed a source that was tagged as questionable by someone else. The sources provided for all the crops each make it clear that preharvest desiccation is mainstream ag practice. Please provide a source that says it is not mainstream ag practice, if you want to claim that it is not. I am fine with listing the few exceptions to mainstream practices but they need to be treated that way and not given WP:UNDUE weight. We do not make mountains out of molehills here - that is the essence of NPOV. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 16:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps we could call it "mainstream industrial agriculture", as that is what i see being used colloquially to refer to the kind of agriculture that you are referring to. SageRad (talk) 16:42, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that the actual policy of WP:VERIFY is that editors are advised to source all statements that are not common knowledge and/or are likely to be challenged. I think Misplaced Pages works on the basis of reasonable text being included without sources unless it's challenged. Most things are not challenged. Some are, and it forms the sort of contesting tension found in courtrooms, which is good. SageRad (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

mainstream industrial agriculture is mainstream agriculture. WP is about the world as it is. Jytdog (talk) 16:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That usage of terms shows a perspective, and yours is not the only one. My perspective is that planting seeds in soil without chemicals is the mainstream agriculture of the human species, and that we are currently in a deep and strange detour in the last 100 years. You see, your perspective is not the only one. "Mainstream" defines a normal, and a center. It implies a frame. Even in the world today, a whole lot of agriculture is done without agrochemical inputs, and is done by other means. What you mean by "mainstream" is clearly "mainstream industrial agriculture". Think about the whole world. Think about the people who live in Nepal, in Tanzania, in Jordan. They're not mostly using glyphosate to finish their lentil crops. They're letting them finish on their own, without glyphosate or any other agrochemical input. SageRad (talk) 19:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That was very helpful. Thank you. Jytdog (talk) 20:01, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

just want to note that my earlier comment here was shorthand for saying that the west canada miller refusing oats is a blip, not mainstream. my edits today and comments above are an elaboration of that. i've been busy elsewhere in WP and in RL - sorry i wasn't able to get back here sooner. Jytdog (talk) 16:47, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)"mainstream industrial agriculture" aka agriculture! I agree though that content like "widely accepted" is pushing the boundaries of OR though... Not saying that it's not, but I don't think we can source that so best to stick with what can be. Sage - Jytdog's not been overly bold IMO and if we sought permission for every edit we make we'd never get anything done! And FWIW I searched for more info on Switzerland but couldn't find any - it seem unlikely to me that it would be completely banned and unless we have a better source, it shouldn't be reinstated. SmartSE (talk) 16:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your reckoning, but in my opinion, Jytdog has been overly bold, in greatly changing a passage that we have worked for a few days on, with the tension of back and forth here, and with the new source i found this morning to counter the challenge to "controversy" and "notability" -- why the wind blowing in the direction of deleting anything critical of the practice? Is this a pro-glyphosate editorial board? SageRad (talk) 16:58, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

The consensus is currently against you and there are still no sources to show that this is anything other than an exceptional case. Can you please reconsider the end of your last comment? I don't consider it very collegial. Cheers SmartSE (talk) 17:18, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

That is a paradox in terms. A consensus cannot be against me, for that means there is not consensus. I am an important voice here, as important as you and Jytdog. And yes, there is a source to show notability. Did you miss that? I'm not here to be collegial. I'm here to be straightforward and do good work. I do feel a wind blowing in one direction and i will say it out loud. There's nothing wrong with that. SageRad (talk) 17:23, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Like it or not, 2 (3 inc. KoA) vs 1 is a consensus here. SmartSE (talk) 17:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I think the word you're looking for is "majority" which is not what consensus means. Check out WP:EDITCONSENSUS. SageRad (talk) 18:20, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, thank you. I want to note that i disagree that it's "just a blip", as i think it's significant in terms of people noticing a difference with chemically desiccated crops and objecting to it. That is why i included it to begin with. I find it to be of import. Different people can see things differently and things different things are important and hopefully Misplaced Pages reflects this, along with good sourcing to show notability when there is contention. The Carlyle Observer news story that i had included also established that notability. I have added that source back from your deletion of it. I hope you will not delete that again. It seems that anything not nailed down goes into the dumpster sometimes with you. SageRad (talk) 16:56, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Note that SmartSE changed the wording here to take out the value-laden aspect of it. Desiccation is used in some agriculture and not in others. I think the edit is good. SageRad (talk) 17:06, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog --- we are getting into edit war territory here -- for all your warning me about edit warring, you sure seem to do it a lot. I don't like it. I don't think it's right. Look, there is more talk here in the thread about that subject. SageRad (talk) 17:10, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess I should jump in and say that I think this was a good comprimise. SmartSE (talk) 17:15, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Of course you do, because you would have it gone altogether if it were up to you. SageRad (talk) 17:24, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

current version is OK with me. Jytdog (talk) 17:32, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Sigh. Just when I thought we might be getting somewhere. If I wanted it gone, I'd delete it wouldn't I? SmartSE (talk) 17:38, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Hopefully not, if it's sourced, and if other people think it's relevant, in good faith. SageRad (talk) 19:54, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Threading is messed up above, so i start a new root here: Note that there is *not* currently consensus on the present version and i'm not happy that sources disappeared and concepts like the lowered beta-glucan levels of glyphosate-finished oats. Two out of three editors is not a "consensus" -- let's admit that's not what consensus means. We discuss. We arrive at conclusions. SageRad (talk) 11:39, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Now i have restored the sources (all four) and the reason of refusal given by Grain Millers, changes in quality of the groats. I cut the second sentence, as you seem to want it to be very brief, and i agree on brevity as long as sources are there. They don't cost us any length to the reader's eyes and can be pursued if the reader wants. SageRad (talk) 11:46, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

I stayed out of the recent conversation since it seemed like we'd obtained consensus that there was a weight issue with adding more content in. The current version describes and sources the event just fine. It appears you're the only editor that doesn't agree with this. Kingofaces43 (talk) 13:12, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Sagerad, please see the note I left at your Talk page about this edit. What is relevant here, is that we cannot make claims about science or give UNDUE weight to such content based on news articles. Thanks. Jytdog (talk) 14:16, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Glyphosate draft

Just in case anybody else was thinking of adding more on glyphosate, I've started a draft based on the HGCA reports linked #Possible sources above. Might take me a while to finish but feel free to jump in and help. SmartSE (talk) 11:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I've added this to the article now. I wondered whether we should include the "toxic wheat" stories, but sourcing would be a real challenge. How do others feel about these ? Or maybe the lack of any coverage in really solid sources demonstrates that it shouldn't be included... SmartSE (talk) 20:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

very nicely done. thx. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

A few suggestions

I just wanted to make a few suggestions that might also help improve this article, but I'm afraid I don't really have the time to find references for all this. If nobody wants to do them, maybe I'll get to it come winter time.
1. Opening sentence appears to indicate that desiccation refers only to herbicidal desiccation. What about mechanical desiccation through swathing? That's a fairly common practice in the US at least.
2. Potatoes get desiccated by more than just one compound. Diquat is also commonly used.
3. The whole lead paragraph seems a little disjointed in that it includes information not in the body, yet doesn't exactly summarize the body, either.
4. Seems like the "Use" section should be fleshed out a little more than just listing the crops which sometimes get desiccated.
5. A whole section on glyphosate. Understandable, considering its controversial nature. But then no discussion of any other method? Other chemicals? Mechanical swathing? Even just a sentence or two would be good.
I apologize for just dropping this here, but it seemed like it might be a good time since there seems to be some new interest in the article over the last few weeks. Anyway, if nobody wants to do anything, I really do understand. I hope you all understand as well -- just the wrong time of year for me. Adv4Ag (talk) 05:01, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments. It's certainly a work in progress but hopefully better than a week ago! I agree there should be some mention of swathing as an alternative and was planning on writing a section on potatoes as well once I get a few more sources together and find the time. Given all the discussion about glyphosate above, this seemed like a sensible place to start though. SmartSE (talk) 12:29, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

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