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Pakistan: Balochistan C‑class Top‑importance

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Archives

July 2005 to January 2012

Copy editing

• I have tried to fix the structure of the article according to this guide in my recent edits. No other extensive changing such as addition or removal of material have been made.
• Any questions/issues with the edits must first be addressed here (and not through blind reverts).
• A request for proper copy editing has been made here. ~Cheers Samar 14:29, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

Odd tone of article

Does it not appear that the article has an oddly mining industry/military strategy tone to it? Especially the economy section. Isn't the economy about how well people are doing, not about what the most recent local billion-dollar investment has been? Some changes along these lines had been made, but appear to have been all removed.

Suggested future changes:

Limit the discussion of natural resources to a single paragraph. There is much more that is interesting about Baluchistan. When mentioning cities and people, let's avoid the use of words like "strategic". This isn't a board game.

How these changes can be made in a way that will withstand assaults from whomever removes such content:

Cite everything. Check back again and again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Samueldee (talk • contribs) 21:08, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Language image

Language image should be moved to the correct section of Endo-linguistic groups, instead of wrong sections, or below the infobox. Faizan (talk) 11:46, 19 March 2013 (UTC)

Your map is wrong Pashto is the main language in MusakhelDistrict (http://www.un.org.pk/profiles/musakhel.htm) (http://archives.dawn.com/weekly/herald/herald96.htm).Also most of killa abdula district is pashto speaking (http://archives.dawn.com/weekly/herald/herald92.htm) (http://www.balochistan.gov.pk/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=803&Itemid=1089) (http://www.khyber.org/pashtoplaces/qillaabdullah.shtml) There are no native hazargi speakers in Killa Abduallh District even in the south as indicated by the map, Hazragi is a native language in few neghbourhoods of Quetta. Tigerkhan007 (talk) 20:27, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Etymology

The following edit has been inserted to the "Etymology" section by an IP editor and, after a couple of deletions, recently restored by User:Faizan Al-Badri. As it is unsourced and somewhat controversial, I am placing it here for discussion.

The Baloch people who along with the Pashtuns formed the eastern half of the Iranian peoples. referred to their land as Moka or Maka, a word which later became Makran. Balochistan is referred to in Pashto as Gwadar or Godar (also Godar-khwa i.e The land by water. This Greeks, who derived the names of Iranian lands from the Bactrian language, latinized this word to Gedrosia. The word "Balochistan" itself is of Persian extraction, and was originally intended as an abusive term. Loch in Persian means naked or ignorant. Ba means with. Thus the term Ba-loch implied one who was uncivilized and ignorant. Istan in Persian means abode. After the older words ceased being used, the word "Balochistan" became the standard word for the region. Thus it is fair to say that the original word for Balochistan was Makka, the Pashto word is Gwadar/Godar and the Hellenized/Latinzed version of the Pashto word is Gedrosia. Therefore, in the grand scheme of etymology, the word Balochistan is a relatively recent arrival on the scene.

The doubts that I have for now include: the given etymology of the ethnonym Baloch which is most likely a false etymology; the proposition re. word Makka which contradicts Gedrosia_(satrapy) and the language in general (Greeks "latinising" words, words "of extraction", etc.). kashmiri 08:12, 3 May 2013 (UTC)

Details of Conflict Added

Added NEUTRAL details of burning issue of extremism and security problems with verifiable recent referenes from the respected international sources (Al Jazeera ) and "Dawan (largest pakistani newspaper) and Pakistan Human Rights Commission Vdhillon (talk) 12:34, 13 October 2014 (UTC)

Wrong informaiton

The information coming for this link http://www.refworld.org/cgi-bin/texis/vtx/rwmain?docid=47c3f3c412 is completely wrong. The number of Afghan refugees is exaggerated to say the least. I think this link should be deleted. Akmal94 (talk) 12:21, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

EDIT: I am adding this proper number figure from this article since the other source is wrong and outdated.

http://tribune.com.pk/story/822571/law-and-order-issues-afghan-refugees-do-not-want-to-go-back-home/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Akmal94 (talk • contribs) 12:34, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

POV edits by 82.11.33.86

At first he was busy in a melodrama at Balochistan, and now here he comes. The Amnestry International is a reliable source, but they do not explicitly hold Pakistani Army responsible for this. And that's an outdated report. Faizan (talk) 16:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

He has been warned over this constant POV-Pushing for so many times, but he simply refuses to understand. He already has a RfC on the subject here and had been explained and clarified by many editors tediously, still he wont stop pushing his POV by citing sources which say absolutely nothing about and does not support the addition he have been making. He probably thinks that by citing any random source to a POV edit will make it legit.—TripWire  05:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

“Human rights abuses attributed to the security agencies” From the source 82.11.33.86 (talk) 07:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

When this stuff was going down yesterday, I wasn't aware of the POV history. I do, however, think that something like human rights violations in the region should be mentioned in the article. I added something yesterday, and do think that perhaps a shorter version of it belongs in the lead. It seems to be a pretty big deal. IP: You need to find better references, like news websites. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 14:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

@Cyphoidbomb: Amnesty and Human rights watch are eligible? I added them. It is all deleted again now so I tag for POV as is no neutral to delete the info on atrocities 82.11.33.86 (talk) 16:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The content IP 82.11.33.86 keeps adding needs to be presented in a neutral tone, supported by reliable sources. The unexplained removal of this content by a different IP editor, 82.132.233.138, is inappropriate and they need to discuss the removal. The allegations of human rights violations is significant, which is why there is a whole article on it. It is intuitive to me that this significant ongoing event should have at least a brief mention in this article. What I submitted in this edit is a three sentence summary of the allegations, which I think is reasonable. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:02, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: The issue may be made a passing reference here and thus I agree with Cyphoidbomb. However, I have following observations, and if need be, they can be further discussed here:

• There is no need to mention it in the lede. A full page is there on the issue and anyone interested can straight away go to it, especially when the IP (which is now banned) added the link to the HR violations in the "See Also" section of this page. Either it should be removed or moved somewhere in the end of the article, because readers coming to this particular page are mainly interested to read about Balochistan as a province of Pakistan. If further interested, they can always go to the HR Violations page after they have read the info on this page.
• When you said in one of your comments that "something like human rights violations in the region should be mentioned in the article", I think indicating that this alleged problem do exist in Balochistan should suffice, instead of giving detailed info like "20,000 people over the years, and in 2014 a mass grave containing 169 bodies was found in the Khuzdar district" in the summary and that too in the lede is a bit like shifting the focus of the reader away from the actual subject i.e the Land of Balochistan. Moreover, we all know that there's no exact proof of these disappearances and most of it is propaganda. I can provide reference if need be, but there is no denying the fact that there is some problem related to HR violations in the Province. Also, taking the words of Mr Ashraf Sherjan, someone who is not even living in Balochistan (he operates from Germany) and have probably never visited Pakistan at its face-value is unjustified. If someone tomorrow from the PKMAP Party (a leading political party in Balochistan) will get up and say that there are no abductions or reduce the figures down to let's say 1000, would wikipedia also accept that at its face-value? Moreover, the issue of mass graves is quite controversial. Terrorists organizations like BLA and BRA have been killing and dumping non-Balochs since long, many a time these graves were found to be of people who opposed the idea of free Balochistan and were indeed opponents of people like Sherjan. The reference to this info says: The graves contained at least 169 bodies. Only three of the persons have been identified as previously abducted persons who were picked up from their homes by Pakistani paramilitary forces. "The rest of the bodies could not be identified because they were mutilated beyond recognition. So, just because Sherjan 'know' and alleges the only three bodies were identified as those who were allegedly abducted, somehow all the remaining 166 bodies too are of other abductees? There's a history of BLA/BRA dumping mutilated body in govt controlled areas and later claiming that they were killed by security forces, similarly, it is also known that these terrorist groups even at times have killed and dumped their own people in addition to non-Balochs to put across their point and give weight to it. So, putting such a big allegation right which is based on some dude in Germany in the lede is a bit harsh. Please understand that my argument is not to prove whether these allegations are false or true, nor am I trying to say that info regarding HR violations should not be mentioned in this article, we can discuss this part on Human rights violations in Balochistan talk page if needed, but I am only stating that this info and allegations and figures are controversial, unconfirmed and debatable, and thus so putting these up as facts in portions in the lede is not correct.
• The words 'Pakistani Army' in "Since 1999 the Pakistani army has been accused of committing human rights violations" is totally incorrect. Because since the past decade no military operation is underway in Balochistan by Pakistan Army, this happened when General Kiyani, COAS ordered all minor and major operations stopped inside Balochistan by the Army. So, there's no military (i.e Army) operating in Balochistan. These allegations are against 'security forces' which can include the Police, FC or Levies. So I suggest tht 'Pakistani army' should be replaced with words like security forces, security agencies, Police or LEA etc, because accusing the Army is factually incorrect, as no Army is operating there and when there is no operation underway and the Army has not been called 'In Aid of Civil Power', it is impossible for the Army to undertake any overt or covert action. Yes, security agencies like Police's Crime Investigation Branch, IB, FC, FC's intelligence units etc do operate all the time like any LEA anywhere in the world. Awaiting yor response, please. —TripWire  19:11, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I will gladly admit that this sort of topic isn't where my knowledge is strongest. I'm going by what the article is saying and using terminology that the article uses. I'm concerned that if we start changing the terms, that we might wind up with original research. I think clearly identifying what the core human rights concern is, is important. From the little I've read, it seems that there are mass "disappearances", body parts being found, the mass grave, and such. I've asked WikiProject Human Rights to take a look at the content here since the debate is a little beyond my pay grade as they say. I still don't quite see the problem with adding a sentence to the lead (once we figure out what prose is suitable for the body), since the purpose of the lead is to summarize content found elsewhere in the article. I'd like to wait for more input, though. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 11:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

BTW, the newspiece being quoted does talk about FC and security agencies. Moreover, basing an para of info just on one citation that too in an Indian website which quotes a dude living in Germany and talks about a subject he know nothing of is a bit more like POV. All I want to say is that had this been the HR Violation page that we have at Wiki, it was alright. Giving this thing such importance and highlighting it in such a way, including (doubtful and unconfirmed) figures - the news itself admits that these are accusations and the website is merely quoting 'a' man) is giving undue weightage to it.—TripWire  11:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not a reliable information to be highlighted on a geographic location profile article in presence of separate article dealing militancy in balouchistan. 39.47.50.14 (talk) 17:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

39.47.50.14 Your removal of the three sentence content from the article is premature since we're still in the middle of a discussion about it. I don't understand the argument that since there is an article about these human rights concerns that no mention of these human rights concerns is warranted in this article. That's rubbish. That's like saying "Since we already have an article on Citizen Kane We don't need to mention it in Orson Welles' article since people who want to know about the film can go to the film's article." That would never pass any honest academic scrutiny. If the human rights issues are notable, which they appear to be, then we need to make the content accessible in the places we'd expect to find it, which would absolutely be in articles related to Balochistan. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 17:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

39.47.50.14 must have its own understanding, I didnt say that these 'HR concerns' should not be highlighted in he article, however I do have a problem with the way it has been highlighted especially the figure work when it comes up as a accusation and is not mentioned as an accusation but as a fact. BTW, just for the sake of it, would you apply the same standards of quoting secondary sources here when statements by Indian PM Modi regarding Indian involvement and support to Mukti Bahini are not being allowed to be included at Wiki? —TripWire  17:47, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I know that 82.11.33.86 had presented it matter-of-factly, which I tried to avoid in my write-up. So I'm in agreement with you on the tone. 39.47.50.14, you should probably consider reverting your edit, please. As for the other link, I'm reserving comment on that. I don't specialize in human rights issues or political happenings in that region of the world. I'm not an expert by any stretch and I'd like to keep the focus of this discussion on this article, if possible. Thanks, Cyphoidbomb (talk) 18:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

the sources are solid Human rights watch and amnesty are no propaganda outlets. Seems consensus is atrocities must be mentioned 82.11.33.86 (talk) 21:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Thankyou Einstein! Yes we know that they could be mentioned, but that is not what we are discussing here. —TripWire  04:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

AS member of Pakistani army you should not even comment here. And we are discussing what needs be written here. Article needs section on army atrocities. 82.11.33.86 (talk) 10:14, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

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