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update on arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/

One of our sources, http://arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/, has been updated. We should edit or delete the sentence which cites this source in light of this update. Chrisrus (talk) 13:50, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Updated to remove the radio silence bit. Based on the update it looks like there was a miscommunication between Wu & the FBI. — Strongjam (talk) 14:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Now it says that she's expressed frustration, but the authorities have responded that her frustration is not founded and cited evidence, and she has apologetically backed off that assertion. Even if she still maintains face-saving wiggle room that she still thinks her cases have been mishandled by other authorities, she provides no evidence or reason for us to pass such allegations from her along to our readers. Just delete it as a non-event or mistake. Chrisrus (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Miscommunication over one case. Her complaint about lack of action on all of the many threats and harassment against her are still valid. — Strongjam (talk) 14:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

They might or might not be valid, but in this citation the only any evidence provided is also contradicted and retracted. What remains is a vague allegation with nothing to back it up. Chrisrus (talk) 14:42, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

The statement as it stands now is both true and verifiable. I don't think there is anything left to discuss. — Strongjam (talk) 14:52, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

While that statement may be true and verifiable, it's not a fair summary of that source. A fair summary of that source would say in appropriate language that that certain allegations were made on a blog that did not check out and were retracted apart from a vague generalization backed up by no evidence. Chrisrus (talk) 16:31, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope. No reliable source has said this, for the very good reason that saying this might arguably be libel. this discussion is quite possibly libelous as well, as one editor appears to be accusing the subject of committing a crime for which she has been neither charged nor indicted, based on that editor'so personal interpretation of something or other MarkBernstein (talk) 21:32, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

Reporting that someone made a mistaken accusation and retracted it is not accusing anyone of a crime.

Don't take it from me, read arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ yourself and you will agree that it reports that certain allegations were made at the Mary Sue that did not check out and were retracted as a misunderstanding or miscommunication or mistake, apart from a vague generalization backed up by nothing. If you don't think that's just what arstechnica.com/business/2015/05/gamergate-critic-posts-death-threat-voicemail-after-inaction-by-prosecutor/ says, what then does it say?

This article merely repeats this unfounded accusation and omits the fact that the specific allegations turned out to be not true and were retracted and apologized for, which is the main idea of the source. If we're going to include this source, we should not just cherry pick a vague accusation and ignore its main idea. It seems better to delete the whole thing, because it's just about something that we thought was real but wasn't so oops nevermind. Chrisrus (talk) 15:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Can you be more specific? Please quote from the article what unfounded accusation is repeated. — Strongjam (talk) 15:27, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

"Wu has expressed her frustration over how law enforcement agencies have responded to the threats that her and other women in the game industry have received." This misses the main idea of the source and repeats her accusation that the law enforcement agencies have been remiss in responding, a claim not backed up by evidence in this citation. Chrisrus (talk) 16:12, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Nope, it's a fair assessment of the source. We don't have to investigate any 'evidence'. Perhaps you'd be better off writing a letter to the editor. — Strongjam (talk) 16:14, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The House Appropriations Committee has just formally supported the call for enforcement of laws against online harassment and Gamergate: ] . Let's drop this unproductive discussion and move on. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:57, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

We're not questioning the source so contacting them would not be helpful. This source says she said the response of the authorities has been lacking because of claims to fact that she now says "oops sorry nevermind" about. Chrisrus (talk) 17:04, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Let's not focus on one a single tree and miss the whole forest. Take it to WP:RSN if you think the source does not back up the statement. — Strongjam (talk) 17:09, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The updated source still says she is frustrated in general about law enforcement's response to the situation; the detailed issue around the Columbus call was a mistaken choice of which agency to contact, and she apologized for her mistake once she got to the right one. But there's still her general sentimentes from her op-ed that in general, the lack of law enforcement actions on any of these harassment (not just hers) is frustrating. So the statement is fine with the update. --MASEM (t) 17:11, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

You say we shouldn't ignore the forest and miss the trees, but that would mean providing a holistic summary of what this source contains instead instead of just providing one cherry-picked detail. The fact that she finds the response lacking is just an insignificant opinion without something in the source to indicate that she's right about that. Chrisrus (talk) 01:40, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

No, her opinion in this case is not insignificant- it's pretty significant, so we include it. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 03:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

This citation is about some allegations that didn't check out. If we use it, we should say that.

This citation is not about the fact that she says she still believes it's lacking anyway.

Her saying that, even though none of this evidence checked out, is in this citation. But there is no evidence here that it is lacking. We have nothing here but unsubstantiated allegations.

If we retain this source we should tell them what's in it: that she made some allegations that didn't check out and she apologized and retracted it but still thinks the response has been lacking.

Or we dump this citation on "Citation Contains Retraction" grounds. As we say, "retraction is strong evidence of inaccuracy." Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Read Masem's above comment re: still frustrated. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:21, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

He's right: it says she still believes it anyway. That doesn't address my point: that's not a fair summary of the citation and misses the main point of the citation and amounts to us repeating a baseless allegation. Chrisrus (talk) 06:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Then change it. You can edit wikipedia pages, can't you? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 06:33, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

There's no requirements that when we use a source that we can only use the source's whole content in its entirety. We're summarizing, so using a single fact that is buried in a larger article from a reliable source is not a problem. Yes, it is likely the Mary Sue rant and the subsequent articles regarding that call and her initial failed attempt to get enforcement help would not have happened if she had contacted the proper department first, and we wouldn't have that "frustrated" statement. But it did happen, yet even after the article was updated, that factor still persisted, so its fair game for us to use and ignore the rest of the situation. (Remember, this is coming after the situation at PAX.) --MASEM (t) 12:29, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right, there is no obligation to always summarize a source. However, there is no obligation not to, especially if omitting the main point of a source amounts to passing along a baseless allegation, that's a problem.

To say "Smith was angry that Jones did something wrong" is to pass along Smith's accusation against Jones, something we shouldn't do without proof and important reason to do so. Chrisrus (talk) 05:04, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

So let's summarize the source holistically. Just that she made those accusations, but they turned out to be wrong, so she restracted them, but still nevertheless maintains that the response is lacking. Chrisrus (talk) 05:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

No, you have events flipped. Prior to that Columbus call (the one she recorded and had the caller's number for evidence) , she reports she had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on other threats she's gotten, but from that was frustrated with the lack of significant response (eg the PAX situation). Then this call happened, one that she was able to record and get a number for, making it something possibly more actionable than previous threats in terms of enforcement, called the Columbus agency (unaward she was calling the wrong department for those types of matters), got even more frustrated with this specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue. And then she was told she did have the wrong department and thus got to the right person. Her frustrations with all other previous attempts still exist and didn't change, what the updated article still presents. --MASEM (t) 14:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Masem is correct -- words I have seldom written! All news reports (including the world's top newspapers) agree that the subject has been exposed to vile harassment and that legal authorities have so far been unable or unwilling to prosecute the offenders. There is absolutely no doubt that the harassment is real or that it has been reported to authorities that range from local police officers to the U. S. Congress. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

Masem:

You seem to be saying that:

1. She was frustrated because had been trying to get other law enforcement agencies to act on "other", less "actionable" threats, "in terms of enforcement" that she had previously gotten, prior to "the Columbus call".

2. Later she got the "Columbus call" which she recorded and got caller's number, making them more "actionable" in that way.

3. She rightly presented the Columbus Call Evidence to the proper authorities.

4. It was then that she then became "frustrated with the lack of significant response."

5. Then "this call" happened. She also a number for "this call", making it something also possibly more actionable by authorities.

6. She then called "the Columbus agency" who did not respond because it was not their job to respond or pass it on to the proper authorities, because she had the wrong department for those types of matters.

7. She then got even more frustrated with this new specific lack of response, and wrote her opinion for the Mary Sue.

8. She was then learned for the first time that she had had the wrong department and got to the right person, so she's not frustrated by the response to this call anymore.

In short, she isn't saying she is frustrated by the response to the first, number-and-recording-less calls. She is not saying she is frustrated by the lack of response to "this call". She was only saying she was frustrated by the lack of significant response to "the Columbus call".

This is what I understood you to be saying. Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 15:32, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

There's only one call, what you're calling "this call" and "Columbus call" are one and the same. If you eliminate your points 3, 4, and 5, then you have the order of events that I see it as described by how the original articles read and the updated stories. And your point is missing what you have as point #1 - that all the previous calls and threats she's gotten and reported (though perhaps without having caller number or recording) had left her frustrated with the general enforcement authorities' responses. --MASEM (t) 15:40, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. You now seem to be saying that:

First she got less actionable telephone threats. This fact is not in this citation, so, {{citation needed}}, if you would, but according to this citation, she was and still is frustrated with the inadequate response to these previous threats.

Later, she got the "Columbus call", which was more actionable, because this time the number was captured and the call recorded. She then mistakenly provided this evidence to an unnamed agency, the wrong department. Not hearing back and not knowing why, she then got even more frustrated and so wrote a piece for the Mary Sue complaining about it.

She then learned for the first time that she had had the wrong department and apologized but said but she's still frustrated about the previous lack of response to the earlier, less actionable calls.

Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 05:01, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

The Ars Tech article says she's been frustrated before but if you read her Mary Sue op-ed "For this, I’ve had over 100 death threats sent to me by the hate group known as Gamergate in the last nine months. And yet, terrifyingly, nothing has been done." which is unmistakably clear. Otherwise that's correct. --MASEM (t) 05:08, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, we've been talking just about phone calls. She's saying she is frustrated with the lax response by the proper authorities to "messages" she had received, which we can rightly assume means tweets and/or emails and such. Is this citation the first to establish this fact about her feelings about these messages? Chrisrus (talk) 18:31, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

It's the Mary Sue source which ArsTech refers to. But to eliminate that being an issue, I have added that MAry Sue as a source to that same statement. --MASEM (t) 18:47, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

We could cite that fact about how she feels to citations other than this one. Is that correct? Chrisrus (talk) 19:17, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

No, the Mary Sue essay she wrote is the direct, immediate source. Ars Tech summarizes it, but as it begs where the citation is actually coming from, using the Mary Sue source directly removes any question of this. (It should be noted her essay was also updated to reflect the corrected department contact, but it still keeps her prior frustration). --MASEM (t) 20:06, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Unless we're going to tell the readers about this incident, I don't see what use this citation is to the article. How she feels about the response is found in other sources and not backed up by anything in this. Chrisrus (talk) 14:51, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

At the end of the day, in talking about how GG is being handled by law enforcement, Wu's opinion on her general frustration with lack of enforcement response is completely appropriate. --MASEM (t) 15:08, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Has the enforcement response been lacking or not? If we phrase it like "Smith is frustrated that Jones was negligent", we express Smith's feelings as his opinion, but "that Jones was negligent" is presented as fact. If you say "Smith asserted that Jones was negligent", or maybe "Smith was frustrated at perceived negligence on Jones' part", that'd be different. Chrisrus (talk) 15:41, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

We have presented this in the article as Wu's opinion that enforcement is lacking, so we are fine with that. We do state factually that to the best of anyone's knowledge no one has been arrested/etc. due to GG, but without additional comment. --MASEM (t) 23:52, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

I regret now not telling the readers what this source says. People should know not just that she thinks the response is lacking, but, but also that she made and withdrew those accusations. It might be important for them to know this. Chrisrus (talk) 20:32, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Given that the Mary Sue and the Ars Tech articles were updated after she withdrew her accusation at the enforcement office but left in her general frustration with the lack of activity from law enforcement in general in the overall GG situation, she clearly didn't withdraw that complaint. So summarizing just this is fine. --MASEM (t) 20:44, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

By what standard? Objectively, none of these threats have been found to be credible and even the ones that have identified the threat maker have been passed off as not credible (i.e. the PAX "going for the kill" threat and the comedian that claimed to crash his Prius were both identified by police). Police prioritize cases and part of that is determining whether a threat is physically likely. Local domestic violence threats where they are likely to become real violence will have priority over anonymous threats on the internet. Threats by anonymous people are very rarely carried out and that is juxtaposed against threats by familiar people and prioritized accordingly. We also don't know how many threats Wu has reported or what the disposition was/is. Why didn't she know that she should be calling her local police department until the Columbus prosecutor told her? There is simply nothing to write about the police response except what has already been covered and nothing indicates that the response by law enforcement has been inadequate. Wu may be frustrated but it's the same level of frustration expressed by all victims of lower priority crimes (i.e. a $100 break-in theft from a car may feel very violating and personal. The police will take a report. Don't expect the CSI van to show up looking for DNA evidence, though.) --DHeyward (talk) 23:49, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

The Boston Globe, Boston Magazine, and Rep. Katherine Clark are all unambiguous in reporting that Wu did report threats to her local police department. Kindly redact that mistake promptly. In addition, where crimes were apparently committed in other jurisdictions, as was the case in Ohio, Wu contacted authorities in that jurisdiction. End of story. None of these questions should be mentioned in the article; aside from another failed Gamergate PR initiative, there's no news here. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

This isn't "prove the negative day." There is no objective view or source that enforcement is lacking. Masem is correct that we should be reporting it as Wu's opinion and one that has evolved especially since the Mary Sue article got the attention of the Columbus prosecutor. Also, its a novel view that the threat she received at her home or business wasn't a local crime. I have no doubt she reported threats including the one to the wrong people in Ohio. As far as I have read she has not made a complaint about local police. Is there a source for that? --DHeyward (talk) 04:02, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

To wit, the namesake of this section updated the original story when it turned out there were errors made. Before Wednesday's op-ed was published, Wu claims her outside legal counsel had e-mailed one FBI agent she had contacted in the past, along with Boston police, but she was unable to reproduce those e-mails for Ars Technica before the holiday weekend. --DHeyward (talk) 06:12, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

That doesn't mean that those emails don't exist - just that she didn't get back to ArcTech in a timely manner. --MASEM (t) 14:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

Correct and I didn't mean to imply that they don't exist. The (paraphrased) "my lawyer sent one email to an FBI agent she had contact with in the past" doesn't exactly inspire confidence or support "Radio Silence from the FBI." ARStechnica tone changed, too, in the update as instead of "raising new questions", they use terms like "claims" but that's a bit cyrstalballish. In the MarySue article, after learning that "her staff" didn't actually contact Ron O'Brien (the person she calls out by name multiple times), Wu tweets her supporters to stop harassing O'Brien Everyone I’ve talked to there has been professional and very helpful. You don’t help my case if you attack them. These things happen. What things? O'Brien did nothing wrong and it was an error on Wu's staff or attorney (she blamed both). She later said to the Mary Sue "It’s worth clarifying, my frustration is with law enforcement overall, not with the Ohio prosecutor’s office." yet the Ohio prosecutor is the only one she bothered to call out by name. Maybe if she named her FBI contact or Boston PD contact or federal prosecutor, we could get to the heart of the frustration there as well, just as naming the Ohio prosecutor quickly identified the problem. It's somewhat disingenuous for us to write about her frustration without the Ohio backstory of where the frustration originated - it's why both the Mary sue and ARSTechnica added updates after all - I haven't seen anything since the last update where they were waiting for emails.. --DHeyward (talk) 17:13, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it's clear that while the Ohio situation caused Wu to put her feelings to paper and without it we wouldn't have her "frustrated" opinion. But that said, this source from WaPost just added by Strongjam to support Rep. Clark's bill reiterates the frustration about lack of any followup by any agency, without even mentioning the Ohio situation. And it's hard to ignore that we know Wu contacted Pax and local police and got nothing there. --MASEM (t) 19:09, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no question that crimes have been committed, and any passages above that insinuate otherwise are either mistaken (and should be corrected) or libelous (and should be rev-del'd). Issuing threats of harm to an individual, their family, or their property in order to persuade them to leave software development is clearly a criminal act; that the perpetrators remain, at present, either unknown or unidentified does not change the fact of the crime. That the crimes have been reported to appropriate police agencies is also amply reported. The question of the credibility of threats -- repeated endlessly above and in the archives by a few Gamergate accounts -- is relevant only for short-term police response and does not affect the underlying crime or mitigate its severity unless you wish to argue that no reasonable person could possibly find the threats to be frightening or disturbing. Since any number of excellent sources did find the threats disturbing, we can dismiss that line without further discussion. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:17, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

<title redacted> (essentially a call for collaboration on removing inappropriate comments and content)_(essentially_a_call_for_collaboration_on_removing_inappropriate-2015-06-09T19:48:00.000Z">

Natalie Zed

http://www.vocativ.com/tech/internet/gamergate-newest-nemesis-phd-student-natalie-zed/ ForbiddenRocky (talk) 06:25, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

These Women Are Using Industry Discrimination To Change Tech

http://thinkprogress.org/culture/2015/06/05/3661042/women-using-gamergate-industry-discrimination-change-tech/

What's the RS status of thinkprogress.org? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 08:31, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Relevant WP:RSN discussions:

• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 153#thinkprogress.org as a generally accepted WP:RS
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard/Archive 184#Cambridge University Press and Washington Post on Islamophobia in Steven Emerson article

— Strongjam (talk) 13:21, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I did a quick check on thinkprogress in the GGC references and didn't see anything. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

My awful life inspired Law & Order, Gamergate dev says

http://www.cultofmac.com/325789/brianna-wu-gamergate-inspires-law-order/ Another one I'm not sure about RS. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

GamerGate's latest target is the most uplifting gaming documentary yet

http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Feature/405118,gamergates-latest-target-is-the-most-uplifting-gaming-documentary-yet.aspx ForbiddenRocky (talk) 05:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Coke vs Pepsi

Quick revert comment

On this revert I did , I will note that the validity of these sources have been discussed on this talk page before, even if they aren't the highest RSes. Also, the removal of them was stated because they were duplicative, but duplicate sources are not a bad thing; in one case, the original Mary Sue article written by Wu was removed in favor of the Ars Tech article that summarized her comments, but there's absolutely nothing wrong with including both. --MASEM (t) 21:49, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Has the reliablity of APGNation been discussed before? PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 21:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

The archive search shows it coming up several times, primarily because it is an interview with TFYC, and less trying to be a "factual" aspect. --MASEM (t) 22:09, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

To add, I'm not saying we can't rediscuss the reliability of these sources, but before they are removed from the article, that should be rechecked for each of the sources in question. --MASEM (t) 22:11, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

If I remember correctly APGN is not considered an RS yet due to the lack of journalistic experience within the editorial team. But the article in question (an interview with Matthew Rappard of TFYC) can be used to source TFYC's opinions on stuff and whatnot.Bosstopher (talk) 21:46, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Phil Fish

I couldn't find any discussion about this in the archives. The article currently reads: "Among those singled out was fellow video game developer Phil Fish, who was hacked and doxed after he defended Quinn and referred to those attacking and harassing her as 'ball-less manboobs' and 'essentially rapists'; Paste magazine said that these 'were fairly common statements from the combative .'" Here are the references used: . The references generally agree that Phil Fish was hacked after defending Zoe Quinn, but none of the contemporary articles ascribe the attack to Gamergate, probably because the name Gamergate was not attached to the movement until several days after Fish left the industry. Can we retroactively assign blame to a group that didn't even exist at that point? There were no "Gamergate supporters" when Fish was hacked. The Phil Fish incident might be more appropriate for the Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn, or 4chan articles, but unless there is a reliable source that clearly links the Gamergate movement to the hacking incident (the current articles do not) then I don't see a justification as to why it should be included. Either that, or we should rewrite the paragraph to clarify that the hacks occurred before Gamergate had a name, perhaps as part of the "background" to the creation of Gamergate. 4chan ≠ Gamergate, and Gamergate was not the sole perpetrator of harassment targeted at Zoe Quinn. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 00:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Paragraph should probably be split up. The bit about Fish moved up a paragraph or two, and the bit explaining the use of "white knight" and "SJW" somewhere else. — Strongjam (talk) 00:51, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. It's fairly obvious the harassment/hacking is related, but the timeline is a bit off. I'm done editing for the day, but if someone else wants to take a shot at it then be my guest. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 01:02, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I am pretty confident that there is zero OR to take, for example, "Fez developer Polytron hacked in ongoing game developer harassment effort" from Kotaku on Aug 22 to consider Fish's harassment part of GG even though the term hadn't been developed. In the hacked info from Polytron, the hackers used a term associated with Quinn specifically coming from Gjoni's post (no need to repeat here). And while Fish might have existed before GG started, his connection to trying to defend Quinn after Gjoni's post is still a sign of what the harassment became. --MASEM (t) 01:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's a big deal, I just think we can do a better job of the organization of it here. It's definitely all part of the same controversy. — Strongjam (talk) 01:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

"virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign"

"virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" Take 2

So do people think this is an accurate representation of the sources? I think its a fair enough summation.Bosstopher (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

As long as we are including two or more sources immediately afterward that use that wording exactly to refer to the harassment (which we have, it is not that it doesn't exist, just not added as a ref to that sentence yet) then yes. --MASEM (t) 22:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

So basically if those sources are added the problem is solved and everyone is in agreement about the actual content of the article, even if in disagreement about the theory behind it?Bosstopher (talk) 22:21, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

The sources clearly characterize the harassment as virulent and misogynistic. Other adjectives could be added, but perhaps they can be reserved for use elsewhere in the article. "Toxic" seems well represented in the sources, for example. Since so many “new” and “completely neutral” editors repeatedly arrive to “question” this topic, it might be a service if we included a sampling of the threats -- perhaps in this case setting them off in a quote box because the whole point here is to call attention to them. The quotes from The New Yorker, Boston Magazine, and the Washington Post would be reasonable places to start. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:27, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

That would be a violation of soapboxing. Yes, GG harassment has been seen as bad, over and over again, we have that sourced. There is no need to add more fuel to that fire just because you can source how its described 20 different ways. It is only that we should be making sure that in summarizing the condemnation that commonly used contentious words are given inline sources so that it does not appear that WP is creating that contention. --MASEM (t) 22:39, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

There used to be a blockquote in the article but it was removed by User:Rhoark back in January with the argument "Block quotation should be used for readability, not emphasis". In my opinion plastering extreme threats of violence and rape over the article in block quotes would be innapropriate. While Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTCENSORED, I don't think we should make the article overly violent and explicit in tone and make it more distressing to read. It also feels to me slightly exploitative of the harassment that the people in question have suffered through. See for example Murder of Junko Furuta, where a conscious editorial choice has been made to keep the minimal amount of gory details in the article. I think it would be more tasteful to follow that style, while obviously not ignoring the real damage done by the harassment. Bosstopher (talk) 22:50, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

To be precise, I replaced the block quote with a standard inline quote. I could not find any specific policy governing such a case, but I have never seen any precedent for highlighting a quote in such a massive font, and the MOS did not mention the use of quotation templates for such a purpose. It is my opinion that the quote does not belong in the article at all, but it was obviously prudent to approach the matter incrementally. Its inclusion is clearly for the purpose of editorializing, and it is not consistent with WP:AVOIDVICTIM. With regard to the question that started this thread, "virulent and often misogynistic harassment campaign" is an accurate paraphrase of what a lot of the sources say. It is, however, editorializing and peacock language not suitable for use in Misplaced Pages's voice. Rhoark (talk) 00:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Not WP:PEACOCK. It's merely descriptive of the type of harassment. — Strongjam (talk) 00:37, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

It is a grandiose description of the type of harassment. A statement in encyclopedic tone would be along the lines of, "After the blog post, Quinn and her family received numerous threatening or slanderous messages by phone and social media. Commentators have called this a coordinated misogynist campaign." -> segue into discussion of all PoVs about 4chan logs. Rhoark (talk) 00:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Nope. That just downplays and avoids describe it as our sources do. Bitter, hostile, and often misogynistic. — Strongjam (talk) 01:08, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, we want to be very careful to reflect the consensus of the best and most reliable sources; if the sources report vivid and violent detail of repellent harassment, it is not our place to hide that from our readers. We want to be sure to get it right -- that's why we keep discussing this over and over and over again. Are only “new” and “completely neutral” editors who have arrive here from Gamergate basements permitted to raise questions? If we're going to ask whether the article reflect the preponderance of the reliable sources, I think there's a very good chance that the current text does not -- that it errs in excusing or explaining Gamergate harassment tactics in ways that the best and most reliable sources carefully avoid. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

We should be very careful to reflect every consensus of every reliable source, in appropriately proportional space. This is one of the five pillars, and not optional. It is not our place to hide any views from readers, nor anoint any as more correct than another, preponderant or not. Rhoark (talk) 00:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I do want to alert my fellow editors to a fairly new twist we saw today. First, editors arrive to "clean up" the article by "removing unneeded references" to avoid WP:COATRACK. Then, some time later, "completely neutral" and "new" editors challenge the text as unreferenced, and claim that the text is unsupported by the sources. This claim was a lie, regrettably, untrue; TRPoD found one source in minutes, Masem (thanks!) found another, and while we were speculating about potential plagiarism on the part of a former senior editor at CJR, a dug up a half dozen more. Net result: a lot of people wasted a good deal of time rehashing a question that has been thoroughly settled, PLUS the clever idea: one editor removes the references, and then the other editor separately removes the text because now it has no references. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I remind you of your duty to assume good faith. Where it relates to me, your accusations are completely without merit. At this stage, you are the one wasting everybody's time. We are very near resolution here. Let's finish up and move on. Handpolk (talk) 00:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

We begin with an assumption of good faith that editors are here to improve the encyclopedia. We are not obligated to ignore evidence to the contrary. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:39, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I added an artificial timestamp to TheRedPenOfDoom's comment above, to satisfy the automatic archiver. Please fix the date and time if you can find it from the history. --TS 14:39, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

What reliable sources say

That's a phrase that gets bandied about a lot, but I think as the months run on the memories of what actually was said have dimmed, and people have begun to project their assumptions. A refresher is due. There are a lot of minor points with a broad spectrum of positions, so for now I'll just focus on two questions. First, what is GamerGate? Second (in service of the section directly above), what was the nature of the harassment Quinn received right after the zoepost?

New York Times "Feminist Critics of Video Games Facing Threats in ‘GamerGate’ Campaign"

What is GamerGate? "a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women."

Zoe Harassment "threats of violence"

• Clarification: The NYT leads into the paragraph quoted above with "The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. " --21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Polygon "On GamerGate: A letter from the editor"

What is GamerGate? "this wave of hatred but also its complementary "movement," focused ostensibly on ethics in game journalism"

Zoe Harassment

• Clarification: The source also says "Of course, this whole thing didn't begin with "ethics.", and "By politics, the voices calling for ethics reform really mean "progressive" politics. The so-called corruption that needs to be rooted out is a focus on "diversity" and the "magnitude of the human experience." --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Polygon "GamerGate is an ugly mess, but this picture of it is beautiful"

What is GamerGate? "The GamerGate movement and Twitter hashtag is a social campaign defined by most supporters as a call to effect change in video game journalism and to defend the "gamer" identity. The movement is difficult to define because what it has come to represent has no central leadership or agreed-upon manifesto."

Zoe Harassment "ongoing and well-established harassment"

• Clarification: The full text here is "The campaign is now also linked to ongoing and well-established harassment of women in video games," --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The Washington Post "The only guide to Gamergate you will ever need to read"

What is GamerGate? "Whatever Gamergate may have started as, it is now an Internet culture war. On one side are independent game-makers and critics, many of them women, who advocate for greater inclusion in gaming. On the other side of the equation are a motley alliance of vitriolic naysayers: misogynists, anti-feminists, trolls, people convinced they’re being manipulated by a left-leaning and/or corrupt press, and traditionalists who just don’t want their games to change."

Zoe Harassment "death and rape threats so specific, so actionable, that she fled her house and called the cops"

additional quote: "Here at the Intersect, we have ignored Gamergate for as long as humanly possible — in large part because it’s been covered in enormous, impressive depth elsewhere, and in smaller part because we’re exhausted by the senseless, never-ending onslaught of Internet misogyny" added by TRPOD -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:52, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The Washington Post "Inside Gamergate’s (successful) attack on the media"

What is GamerGate? "GamerGate has come to represent a lot of different things to a lot of different people. But to a core group of astoundingly fervent supporters, the ongoing saga has never been about women, or harassment, or even video games. It’s about fighting what they see as a massive, progressive conspiracy among female game developers, feminists and sympathetic, left-leaning media outlets"

Zoe Harassment

Additional content: "But the incident still demonstrates a worrying new trend among the Gamergate crowd: curbing the speech of reporters they don’t like by threatening their advertisers." "the jokes were an obvious — if tongue-in-cheek — commentary on the movement’s well-documented, often hateful, idiocy." added by TRPOD, -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:50, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Ars Technica "Chat logs show how 4chan users created #GamerGate controversy"

What is GamerGate? "a hashtag that became a breeding ground for all kinds of conspiracy theories surrounding the "corrupt" systems that allowed Quinn and Sarkeesian to figure in the industry as they do. As the hashtag spread, spectators got increasingly drawn into arguments about the ethics governing relationships between game developers and the gaming press."

Zoe Harassment "Quinn soon had her accounts hacked and her personal information stolen (experiences she was accused of fabricating)"

additional content from the lead: "A set of IRC logs released Saturday appear to show that a handful of 4chan users were ultimately behind #GamerGate, the supposedly grass-roots movement aimed at exposing ethical lapses in gaming journalism. The logs show a small group of users orchestrating a "hashtag campaign" to perpetuate misogynistic attacks by wrapping them in a debate about ethics in gaming journalism." -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:49, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Nieman Reports "What GamerGate Can Teach Journalists About Handling Twitter Storms"

What is GamerGate? "an honest attempt to expose the cozy relationship between the video games industry and the reporters who cover it—or simply an excuse to harass women on the Internet? It's details are complex and convoluted."

Zoe Harassment "death threats against Quinn"

• Note: "GamerGate eventually evolved into a sprawling, amorphous mess of allegations—and it resulted in death threats against Quinn and other women in the industry". --Aquillion (talk) 22:00, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Game Informer "GamerGate's Origins And What It Is Now"

What is GamerGate? "hate group"

Zoe Harassment "waves of hatred were spewed at Zoe Quinn over social media, culminating in the posting of her personal information online"

Slate "Letter to a Young Male Gamer"

What is GamerGate?

Zoe Harassment "trolling Quinn, harassing and threatening her, hacking her accounts, even calling her home and circulating nude pictures of her"

CinemaBlend "GamerGate: Everyone Hates Each Other And I'm Really Tired"

What is GamerGate? "arguments about misogyny, professional responsibility, privacy, the direction of the gaming industry and copyright"

Zoe Harassment "harassment by a small, vocal group"

• Note: This is an opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author in an obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

TechCrunch "The #Gamergate Question"

What is GamerGate? "a reactionary movement on Twitter largely in response to what gamers perceive as an attack on them and the corruption of their media"

Zoe Harassment "a torrent of abuse and more abuse"

• Note: See what I said above, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on an obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

TechCrunch "#GamerGate – An Issue With Two Sides"

What is GamerGate? "a warning of the perils of unaccountable and secretive moderation systems"

Zoe Harassment

• Note: See what I said above again, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on an obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Spiked Online "#Gamergate: we must fight for the right to fantasise"

What is GamerGate? " refusing to cave in to the Culture War being waged against them and their favourite pastime"

Zoe Harassment

• Note: See what I said above again again, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a comparatively obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Al Jazeera America "GamerGate: How the video game industry's culture war began"

What is GamerGate? "Originally created by gamers concerned with what they saw as an overly cozy relationship between the game developers and the gaming media, #GamerGate became associated in the media with the worst of online harassment of women."

Zoe Harassment

New York Magazine "Gamergate Should Stop Lying to Journalists — and Itself"

What is GamerGate? "anger at progressive people who care about feminism and transgender rights and mental health and whatever else is getting involved in gaming, and by what gamergaters see as overly solicitous coverage of said individuals and their games"

Zoe Harassment "Quinn was receiving hate"

NPR "#Gamergate Controversy Fuels Debate On Women And Video Games"

What is GamerGate? "#Gamergate is about two key things: ethics in video game journalism, and the role and treatment of women in the video game industry"

Zoe Harassment "Quinn was soon flooded with death threats and rape threats. Her personal information, even photos, were hacked and posted online, forcing her to leave her home."

CNN "Behind the furor over #Gamergate"

What is GamerGate? "a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them"

Zoe Harassment "both Quinn and Sarkeesian found themselves subject to violent online threats"

Columbia Journalism Review "How do we know what we know about #Gamergate?"

What is GamerGate? "At core, the movement is a classic culture war. Video games are becoming more sophisticated and appeal to a greater diversity of people. Naturally, debates about what is a legitimate game, who gets to be a gamer, and which critics get to define those terms arise"

Zoe Harassment "had their addresses posted online along with death and rape threats"

• Note: Also "Some gamers have adopted "Gamergate" as the term for a loosely defined movement defending hardcore games against criticisms from feminists and others." And "It's called #Gamergate, with or without the hashtag, and it has triggered ongoing, online barrages between a wide variety of disgruntled people: video gamers, feminists, Internet trolls, scholars, misogynists, gaming-industry journalists and almost anyone else with web access and an ax to grind." --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Crave Online "Gamergate and the Continued Backlash Against “Outrage Culture”"

What is GamerGate? "Gamergate now represents a growing mindset that progressiveness is stifling free speech, and while this isn’t true, it’s not difficult to see how this viewpoint could be adopted when many self-appointed progressives leap to outrage as soon as the opportunity is handed to them."

Zoe Harassment "a vulgar wave of harassment"

• Note: See what I said above again again again, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a comparatively niche site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Pacific Standard "Online Harassment of Women Isn't Just a Gamer Problem"

What is GamerGate? "The effort to link gamer identity to deviance has also sponsored a backlash: Some have started using the hashtag #gamergate to criticize the video game press and push back against their current portrayal in the media."

Zoe Harassment "harassment"

• Note: Also "Instead of trying to address the harassment of Sarkeesian and Quinn, the conversation has become one about competing victimization, with self-identified gamers using the "gamer" identity to present themselves as the aggrieved parties and attack their perceived enemies." --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

boingboing "How imageboard culture shaped Gamergate"

What is GamerGate? "clash of anonymous imageboard culture with the parts of social media where people live and work"

Zoe Harassment "GamerGaters were spreading personal information, nude photos, and defamatory accusations against game developer Zoe Quinn"

Daily Caller "The #WaronNerds: How Far-Left Feminists And The Media Created #Gamergate"

What is GamerGate? "an online movement by video game enthusiasts focused primarily on ethics in video game journalism and the video game industry, with secondary concerns about the corrupting influence of extreme left-wing ideology on both"

Zoe Harassment "death threats and harassment against Quinn"

• Note: See what I said above again again again, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a comparatively obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Forbes "GamerGate: A Closer Look At The Controversy Sweeping Video Games"

What is GamerGate? "In the end, it’s about gamers upset with the status quo and demanding something better. It’s about a group of consumers and enthusiasts not simply feeling that their identity is threatened, but believing that they’re being poorly represented by an industry and press that grow more and more cliquish and remote every year."

Zoe Harassment "Both Quinn and YouTuber Anita Sarkeesian reported death threats forcing them to leave their homes."

• Note: Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a less obscure site. We can (and do) mention their opinion, but it is just their opinion, and deserves no more than the sentence or two it gets, explicitly attributed to them. Among such opinions, it is clearly WP:FRINGE. Useless to use as a source for a broad rewrite of the article. (If you feel some of the other sources I've described as marginal are not-so-marginal, they likely fall into the same place.) --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Real Clear Politics "The Gender Games: Sex, Lies, and Videogames"

What is GamerGate? "To liberals and progressives, it’s part of a reactionary white male backlash against the rise of diversity—in this case, “sexist thugs” out to silence and destroy women who seek equality in the gaming subculture. To conservatives and right-leaning libertarians, it’s a welcome pushback against left-wing cultural diktat"

Zoe Harassment "Threads discussing this dust-up, some of them quite nasty"

• Note: Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a less obscure site. We can (and do) mention their opinion, but it is just their opinion, and deserves no more than the sentence or two it gets, explicitly attributed to them. Useless to use as a source for a broad rewrite of the article. (If you feel some of the other sources I've described as marginal are not-so-marginal, they fall into the same place.) --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Adam Smith Institute "Why gamergate will lose"

What is GamerGate? "those who either think there is a conspiracy in games journalism; that they have been unfairly stigmatised and bullied; those who dislike Zoe Quinn; and/or those who oppose social justice activism being a major part of games journalism"

Zoe Harassment "sexual and violent threats against Quinn"

• Note: See what I said above again again again etc, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a comparatively obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Metaleater "GAMERS LIVE! AN IN-DEPTH ANALYSIS OF GAMERGATE"

What is GamerGate? "The people at the core of GamerGate are the gamers, among which I count myself. GamerGate started because gamers felt attacked"

Zoe Harassment "Quinn got doxxed"

• Note: See what I said above again again again etc, this is the same thing. Opinion piece by a not-particularly-notable author on a comparatively obscure site. Definitely not usable for statements of fact, and no particular reason why we should highlight this person's opinion. Useless as a source. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Vox "Gamergate and the politicization of absolutely everything"

What is GamerGate? "Gamergate has become a political conflict. Video games, at this point, are an excuse for that conflict Gamergate, as well as the reaction against it, isn't any one thing. It includes horrifying, probably criminal, harassment against pretty much any women who dare oppose it. It's partly an argument about what kinds of games the gaming press should cover — and, by extension, what kinds of games developers should make. It has members who want clearer disclosure policies in gaming journalism. It has a lot of people who joined because they hate feminism and internet "social justice" warriors. And it has many people, on both sides, who are far surer about who they're fighting than what they're fighting about."

Zoe Harassment

The New Yorker "Gamergate: A Scandal Erupts in the Video-Game Community"

What is GamerGate? "Gamergate is an expression of a narrative that certain video-game fans have chosen to believe: that the types of games they enjoy may change or disappear in the face of progressive criticism and commentary, and that the writers and journalists who cover the industry coördinate their message and skew it to push an agenda."

Zoe Harassment

The New Yorker "Zoe Quinn’s Depression Quest"

What is GamerGate? "In the past few weeks, a debate about journalistic ethics in video-game coverage has spilled onto social media. Tens of thousands of tweets were written, most of them accompanied by the hashtag #gamergate. Many Twitter users involved in the discussion called for more clarity and disclosure by writers about the relationships they have with independent creators. They want critics to abide by John Updike’s sound rule to never “accept for review a book you are … committed by friendship to like.” In Quinn’s case, the fact that she was the subject of the attacks rather than the friend who wrote about her game reveals the true nature of much of the criticism: a pretense to make further harassment of women in the industry permissible."

Zoe Harassment "After the developer was doxed, the prank calls, threatening e-mails, and abusive tweets intensified to such a degree that Quinn, fearing for her safety, chose to leave her home and sleep on friends’ sofas."

Boston Magazine "Game of Fear"

What is GamerGate? "a savage online movement a witch hunt against anyone involved in breaches of so-called ethics in video-game journalism"

Zoe Harassment "What’s more, she told the judge, the results had been particularly severe: Since Gjoni’s initial blog post, “I have received numerous death and rape threats from an anonymous mob that had given details to,” she wrote. “My personal info like my home address, phone number, emails, passwords, and those of my family has been widely distributed, alongside nude photos of me, and several of my professional accounts and those of my colleagues have been hacked.”"

The Huffington Post "What is #GamerGate?"

What is GamerGate? "The conversation continues to divide gamers calling for journalistic integrity within the gaming industry and those who believe #Gamergate is merely a misogynistic movement aimed at alienating female gamers."

Zoe Harassment

Additional sources Boston Globe What is gamergate? a "shadowy movement called GamerGate" which is responsible for sending death threats to a game developer.

" mocked members of a shadowy and threatening gaming movement called GamerGate, " "GamerGate took off after the ex-boyfriend of a Boston area independent game developer, Zoe Quinn, blogged about her alleged infidelity" added by TRPoD -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 20:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

This is just what I had bookmarked, so please do post more. Rhoark (talk) 06:18, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Since I value the contributions of Mr. Bernstein so greatly, I'll do his legwork for him. A few more sources for the list. Rhoark (talk) 16:39, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

A lot of those are blog posts and opinion pieces, looking over them. Remember, we can't cite blogs or opinion pieces for statements of fact, only to say eg. "so-and-so believes this" (and even then, we have to establish that their opinion is noteworthy; most of the people there don't look particularly noteworthy.) Others, like TechCrunch, metaleater, and CinemaBlend, have been brought up several times but don't really pass WP:RS, at least not for any controversial statements on a topic with this level of coverage, since they either lack a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, are low-profile enough that it would be giving them WP:UNDUE weight to focus on any WP:FRINGE views they express when they contradict mainstream coverage, or both. The others vary wildly in quality, prominence, and relevance. Of the sources we can use, I'm not seeing anything in them that isn't already covered in the article, and nothing that particularly supports your assertion that people are losing sight of what the reliable sources say -- these are all sources we discussed in depth, and I assure you anyone who has been editing the article for any length of time is well-acquainted with all of them. --Aquillion (talk) 09:13, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Many sources in this list, replete with right-wing sites, are unusable, and many top sources (New Yorker, Boston Magazine) apparently absent. MarkBernstein (talk) 12:51, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi MarkBernstein, Many thanks for your comments. W.r.t the connection between a source being "right wing" and it being "unusable"; if this is suggested as a causal relationship, that they are unusable because they are right wing, then it is certainly a novel approach. Would you be able to provide policy or guideline supporting this? WP:NPOV#Bias_in_sources would seem to suggest that there is no prohibition on using "biased" sources, provided we write the article in a neutral manner. WP:NPOV#Attributing_and_specifying_biased_statements suggests that this can be achieved by attributing statements from biased sources. Thanks in advance for your additional thoughts on this. - Ryk72 17:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Not all of these are considered reliable sources but thank you for putting together a list that can be considered, Rhoark. So many different lists of possible sources have been posted in the talk pages that there should be a running list somewhere so we can easily see which have already been considered and which ones are new sources. Liz 14:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Liz, Thanks for raising this important point. While we require a very strong standard for sources supporting statements of fact in Misplaced Pages's voice, opinion sources are inherently "reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author"; so this is not as big an issue as it would seem. As Aquillion suggests, the question of WP:DUE remains, but, given that this is an article on a controversy, it would not seem undue to document a range of views on the subjects. (It may be useful to think of this article as analogous to the "Flat Earth" article, not the "Earth" article). Hope this helps. - Ryk72 19:23, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

However, we have frequently been asked to skew the article to give preferential emphasis to WP:FRINGE or simply fantastical opinions that are poorly represented, or unrepresented in the sources. We won't do that, of course.MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi MarkBernstein, Many thanks for your comments, as always.

Looking at the content guideline WP:FRINGE, it covers two separate but related aspects of determining what is appropriate content. The first is a reiteration of WP:NOR, which is covered by having sources (even if these are sources for opinion, provided they are attributed as such). The second is a rephrasing/clarification of WP:DUE as it applies to an article about a mainstream idea and suggests that a theory that is not broadly supported by scholarship in its field must not be given undue weight. While a number of opinions are expressed in a great deal of sources, it would erroneous to suggest that any of these rise to the level of "scholarship"; far less academic agreement on the subject.

Additionally, this Article is about A debate, discussion of opposing opinions; strife; and I cannot concur that it is WP:UNDUE to document those opposing opinions; nor can I, looking at the range of sources (some of which are listed above) concur that any of the wide variety of opinions is legitimately a Fringe theory within the common meaning of that term.

For these reasons, WP:FRINGE, like WP:RS before it, is not a legitimate basis for objection to inclusion of the spectrum of opinions on the subject matter, as covered in the sources listed by Rhoark above.

Of course, if your reference was to opinions other than those expressed in the sources above, I would be please to address these should they be raised.

Hope this helps. - Ryk72 22:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The main reliable sources above are journalism pieces, not opinion pieces. The NYT, WaPO, CNN, etc., all have opinion sections, which is part of what makes them reliable sources (i.e., separating news from editorials). These articles were not published in their opinion sections. Woodroar (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark says of the New Yorker, "Zoe Harassment ". This continues a disturbing trend on these pages of assertions that are incorrect, readily demonstrated to be incorrect, that their authors should have known to be incorrect, but were stated anyway. In this case, The New Yorker ran an entire profile on Zoe Quinn’s harassment: . This reference could have been discovered by reading the article page -- as I recall there's a long and memorable quote, one that was mentioned right here yesterday. Or there’s the Zoe Quinn page, which refers to it. Or there’s always Google, not to mention The New Yorker’s capable full text search. The spectrum of positions, once we sort out the wing nuts, is not very large, and is adequately represented in the article (although, as I say above, most sources outside Misplaced Pages treat Gamergate as either a criminal or terrorist conspiracy, and so our present treatment is generous to the point of violating WP:FRINGE). MarkBernstein (talk) 16:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I've added that link now, too. This is why if anyone thinks a significant source has been omitted from the above list, it would be better they specify it precisely. I have not made any claim that every significant view is represented in the list so far. After some more time has passed for people to point out omissions, I'll respond to the matters of the sources' reliability and the overall implications of this list. Rhoark (talk) 17:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Since the press is not a legal authority, even if the entire press body considers GG as criminal, we cannot present that as fact if no legal case has been established. (The only legal aspect we have reported is the restraining order Quinn got towards Gjoni). "Terrorist" also is a term with legal connotations, same with "hate group" (as there are different sets of laws that can be engaged if these was legally labelled as such). We can explain with attribution this is how the press feels, but we can't state it as fact. --MASEM (t) 17:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

One night some time ago, someone broke into my house and made off with, among other things, a television and a bottle of bourbon. The burglar was not apprehended; we cannot identify him. But my television was stolen, a crime was committed. We do not know, yet, who use Misplaced Pages to threaten to murder Zoe Quinn, but we know this happened, and we know it was a criminal act. MarkBernstein (talk) 01:13, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

No question that the crime here (harassment and threats) are illegal, barring any result of that SCOTUS decision (which involves motive). But we have no idea of the identity of the people that did it, outside of it being done under the name of GG. No specific person has been identified, arrested, or tried, as best we know, so to say that GG supporters are criminal or terrorists or a hate group is WP's voice but only based on the press's stance would not be proper. There has been a crime done by one or more people using the GG hashtag, but that is purely an unknown group at the present time, as opposed to the GG supporters who claim their motives are about ethics. These sources (particularly the higher ones on the list, the more reliable ones) do make this difference between hashtag users and GG supporters clear, even if they dismiss the ethics claims given by the GG supporters and suggest that their group encourages/enables the harassment. --MASEM (t) 02:04, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

And you are still wrong Masem. when the only thing that identifies a gamergater is the use of the hashtag, crimes done under the hashtag are crimes done by gamergate. "no true gamergater would commit illegal harassment" does not stand up in court. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:24, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

So Milo and Christina - who have now fully identified themselves with gamergate - should be charged with the crime of harassment? Obviously, no, it doesn't work like that. Yes, the crimes are attributable to some subset (which perhaps may be all, but as sources suggest, probably is more likely a small subset) of those using the hashtag, and if law enforcement can figure out that subset with proper evidence, I'm sure criminal justice would be served. But no source - and certainly not WP - assigns the criminal act to the whole of the GG movement, and the highest reliable sources in the list do suggest the criminal aspect is only a small portion of those using the hashtag. The sources do infer that the movement does not do enough to stem harassment and in fact its nature of anonymity and leaderlessness encourages that harassment to continue, but they do not call out those that state they are just trying to address ethics as criminals, just misaligned and sometimes conspiracy theorists. Until there is proper legal case made to treat all of GG as criminals, WP cannot take that stance, period. --MASEM (t) 07:12, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Masem, this is an infeasible burden to place on a statement about any group endeavor on an encyclopedia. If we follow your suggestion, we would need a criminal conviction for each and every member of a group in order to make any colorable statement about the group itself. This from an insistence that we treat commonly understood and wikilinked terms as specific legal accusations simply because they have a negative connotation. Neither the unanimity this proposal demands nor the interpretation of terms used broadly across reliable sources can be supported. I should note that both of these elements to this proposal cut toward gamergate. Just as the months long discussion over how to consider sources beyond reliable sources in the totality of an article also circulated around a proposal whose core elements were more favorable to gamergate. Protonk (talk) 14:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

No - you'd only need it for things that carry legal weight. There is no issue with the pressing calling GG out as a bunch of conspiracy theorists, because there's no laws against holding conspiracy theories (by itself). There's no issue calling the group misogynistic, or anti-feminism, or whatever (with appropriate sourcing). But as soon as you bring in terms that do have legal ramifications, that's where we have to be extremely careful when no case has been made, and absolutely make sure that it is a claim stated to sources and not a fact. This is what WP:LABEL states, so this is not anything new. --MASEM (t) 14:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

To the extent that they have encouraged people to identify them with Gamergate, Masem’s friends Milo and Christina, upon whom he is apparently on first-name terms (how nice for him!) might indeed be said, by the many who regard Gamergate as a criminal conspiracy, as writers who are identified with a criminal conspiracy. I am skeptical that these people are chiefly identified with Gamergate. But this is not immediately relevant: my point is that if new, zombie, IP, and brigaded account demand that we reexamine every adjective in the article, the result will be a great deal of additional work, and may well be an article that is still more critical of Gamergate than the article we have today. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:39, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Please stop the personal attacks. And the issue is simply that when we are using words that fall within the scope of WP:W2W that, to avoid NPOV and NOR, we are making sure that either the wording selection is completely obvious from the bulk of sources (such as describing the harassment as misogynistic) or that we include inline sources that use that wording if it is sufficiently but not obviously common, or that we quote or attribute in prose to the speaker if the word is only used by a single source. The OP here had a fair point that we had an unsourced sentence that used contentious languages, but sources were found to show that is the exact wording used and those sources were added. Most of the other sentences in the article have their own inline source, so this should not be an major issue. --MASEM (t) 18:54, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

The Implications

I posted this list not so much as a resource, but as a message: "Your recollection of the sources is faulty."

About half of the list is already cited in the article. 100% of the list is reliable enough to use on Misplaced Pages in some capacity. Reliability, as you well know, is always in a context. Some sources can be ruled out based on the publisher alone, but the reliability of even the flimsiest in the above list must take into account the nature of the claim. Then, there's the New York Times; let's start there.

"#GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage"
CNN? "a heated debate over journalistic integrity, the definition of video games and the identity of those who play them"
NPR? "#Gamergate is about two key things: ethics in video game journalism, and the role and treatment of women in the video game industry"

Tell me, is this the consensus of reliable mainstream sources that's being defended? Because when I look at this article, I see something different entirely. There's no question that mainstream reliable sources consider harassment the most important part of the story, but when it comes to how centrally harassment figures in the controversy, there's considerably less unity. Some describe a majority concerned with ethics and a minority that are misogynist. Others say it's the people concerned with ethics that are harassing due to their vociferousness. Some simply name ethics and harassment with equal weight. A lot say its impossible to tell. Even taking only the most reliable sources, or only taking left-leaning sources, you cannot escape nuance and ambiguity. From where, then, does this article draw the self-assuredness to open, "The Gamergate controversy concerns sexism in video game culture"?

WP:NPOV states, "All encyclopedic content on Misplaced Pages must be written from a neutral point of view (NPOV), which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without bias, all of the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic." (emphasis mine) The article as it stands does not even represent fairly, proportionately, or without bias the views contained in sources it already cites. At one place or another the article gives lip service to certain nuances, but this is inadequate. A revision is required, stem to stern, emphasizing impartiality, editorial distance, and the uncertain authorship of violent threats.

The specific ethical allegations, so far as reliable sources describe them, must be described in sufficiently complete terms for a reader to understand what these allegations are - not only that they are rejected by Gamergate's detractors. There is no justification to be found in WP:FRINGE to do otherwise. "Ideas should not be excluded from the encyclopedia simply because they are widely held to be wrong." These views are central to an understanding of the topic. Usual notions of proportionality, false balance, or necessary assumptions must be significantly modulated with respect to views that are the subject of the article.

No specific edit is proposed here, and this can all be done with impeccable adherence to BLP. Those already preparing their straw men can just stow them. I'll be following up with specific edits as time goes on, but wanted to open the conversation with an explanation of why these changes are coming and are necessary. As WP:NPOV warns, "This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus."

Rhoark (talk) 04:50, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

This is what I've been trying to argue for several months, and this post summarizes the issue very well. I've previously proposed a version (probably 3-4 months old) that simply was a re-arrangements of the existing sources primarily to group everything directly associated with "GG movement about ethics, and the criticism towards that" and then having a separate criticism of the harassment and larger culture war issues, and that was outright rejected for continued version that biased strongly against any objective coverage of GG even though it was possible with the RSes we had. As well as establishing the more conservative tone that is the middle point of all the possible claims of what GG is made up of from the various sources - that there's those involved in the call for ethics, that there's some that are using harassment as their tool, but the overlap of those two groups is not clear - it may be zero, it may be 100%, but most high RSes claim it's likely a minority of the first group that falls into the other. Again, no changes in sources, just adopting the objective, neutral, non-soapbox approach to this situation. --MASEM (t) 05:15, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm confused. Are you arguing that the article should state "Gamergate is about ethics, but most people don't think so" or "Most people think Gamergate is about harassment, but they claim ethics?" Is that an order change? Because I don't think that's true, nor that sources say that (ethics first over harassment). Most sources seem to say that it's about hating women first, hating people of color second, hating any other kind of social progressiveness third, and then trying to apply a veneer of sophistication (ethics!) overtop all of the previous in order to whitewash. What are you actually suggesting here?--Jorm (talk) 05:38, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The reason GG has any sort of notability is the continued harassment. There is no way that cannot be presented first and foremost, nor can we dismiss having a section that harshly criticizes the harassment tactics and why harassment is being seen as a tool for silencing the opposition. But that's all general facts that are hard to dismiss that have happened and commentary that exists far and wide. It is then how the controversy is presented after that point that becomes how an objective, neutral, impartial encyclopedia should "teach the controversy", in considering the breakdown of sources Rhoark provides. There is a side of GG - regardless of how much it has been considered secondary or conspiracy theories or a front for harassment - that claims to be about ethics in journalism, which while it cannot be documented to the letter that GGers would want to see it simply because we cannot violate NPOV/RS, it can be documented from the RSes listed above. Points about ethics issues have been presented in these RSes, but for the most part they have been determined inactionable (such as "objective reviews"); that doesn't mean we shouldn't cover them because as Rhoark said, this is not a FRINGE aspect, this is central to the controversy. All this is already in the article, but not organized in a manner that makes this clear. The organization, along with some wording choices, is aimed to sweep up any objective coverage of the GG claims that already exist in this RS list under the rug that comes from the weight of the charges involving harassment; this is through salting all the GG stance throughout the article so they are buried among negative statements towards this, which is a classic way of biasing any argument. Based on Rhoark's analysis and list above, I disagree that "most" sources - particularly when you narrow down to the most reliable sources - bury the ethics aspects. Some sources certainly do, but some talk about the ethics first and then the harassment. Or establish why this is a negative situation and then go into the ethics. WP should be taking the most conservative, median view here as a starting point, and then adding claims from the off-center points to expand how the controversy is seen in the press. --MASEM (t) 05:59, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Reliable source have found no ethical concerns that were well founded, grounded in reality, or anything other than a shield for threatening blameless software developers with injury, rape, and murder. Many, many reliable sources -- unimpeachable sources like the CJR and The New Yorker -- have found otherwise. This should not surprise us: groups seeking to reform newsroom practice do not often advance their cause by threatening to rape anyone -- especially not by threatening to rape people who aren't involved in journalism!

That Misplaced Pages is still discussing this is astonishing, and deeply dismaying.

Our article is already far too sympathetic to misogynistic harassment. Masem urges us to take "the most conservative...view" and then "add claims from the off-center points" -- an approach that would be a right-wing extremist's fever dream. The encyclopedic approach, quite clearly, is to express the consensus of the best and most authoritatively reliable sources. They agree without exception that the purported ethics concerns are unfounded, miasmic, vague, mistaken, or illusory, while the threats of rape, murder, and personal injury are, everyone agrees, repellent. (Masem just took this argument for a month-long expedition to WT:NPOV. After that huge discussion did not go his way, his promised dropping of that particular stick has apparently become inoperative.)

Misplaced Pages's continued indulgence of this disruptive and highly organized crusade to whitewash Gamergate's reputation is shameful, and its continuance long past the point when it's intent and malice has been made abundantly clear to all is a further shame -- and a very real threat to the project itself. MarkBernstein (talk) 15:06, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm in agreement with MarkBernstein, the ethics is clearly marked as a figleaf for harassment in the RS. Presenting it "first and foremost" is UNDUE for what's going in in GG. We have covered the figleaf in detail; making it the keystone of the article is the FRINGE part of Rhoark & Masem theory about how GGC should be written. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:10, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi ForbiddenRocky, Many thanks for your comments. Looking through the list of sources above, and through those used in the article, I am not certain that "the ethics is clearly marked as a figleaf for harassment" is an accurate summary of them. Would it be possible for you to list the sources that you see supporting this? Thanks in advance. - Ryk72 22:53, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, Ryk72! Many, many thanks for your comments! Wow! The reality of "ethical" concerns was definitively dismissed by CJR early on -- they're the gold standard for analysis of ethics in journalism. No respectable sources have identified any genuine ethical concerns whatsoever, nor has any source explained how the ethical concerns, real or imagined, are addressed by threatening to maim, rape, or murder various software developers who happen to be women. So, no significant reliable source identifies any real and specific ethical concerns, and many, many sources dismiss those concerns as a fig leaf. But thanks for commenting again! Have an extra-special cuddly day! MarkBernstein (talk) 23:03, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

This sentence and sentence's references pretty much cover it: "These purported concerns have been rejected by media critics and commentators as ill-founded and unsupported. Columbia Journalism Review, The Guardian, The Week, Vox, NPR's On the Media, Wired, Der Bund, and Inside Higher Ed, among others, stated that discussion of gender equality, sexism or other social issues in game reviews present no ethical issue." Admittedly I wouldn't use "figleaf" in the entry itself as I don't think any RS says it that way, but I think the idea is clear enough for the talk page. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 00:47, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

"No specific edit is proposed here". Please suggest one.

"Your recollection of the sources is faulty." Um...

"As WP:NPOV warns" That goes both ways. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not really seeing anything in the usable parts of sourcedump that really goes against the current article. As I mentioned above, it feels like a lot of blogs and very obscure sources were listed alongside the mainstream ones currently used in the article; and beyond that, it feels like the sections highlighted above involve a lot of cherry-picking. All of these sources have been discussed and debated extensively to get the article to where it is, and as someone who participated in a lot of that I'm mostly proud of how it went and confident that the current article reflects the gist of what the reliable sources say. "The specific ethical allegations" isn't something that any of the usable reliable sources really agree on; to the extent that they do, they describe it as a vague and implausible conspiracy about sinister feminist and progressive forces, which is, in fact, what the article touches on. --Aquillion (talk) 18:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Revisiting The Pinnacle of Whimsical Delight

Reddit is all aflutter today with news of this brave new gambit. The Gamergate boards call my attention to the following, which I wrote here on February 14 during a previous Gamergate offensive, but which remains just as pertinent today as when it was written -- because Gamergate keeps returning to the same unending and unproductive disruption. I wrote:

“The proposals discussed above move from remarkable to astonishing and now arrive at a pinnacle of whimsical delight. Are we now seriously proposing that NPOV should permit editors to disregard the consensus of reliable sources because those sources are involved? This directly contradicts WP:RS and renders WP:OR a dead letter. It guts WP:FRINGE utterly: every fringe belief is convinced that the established sources are biased against it. Or is this exemption only to apply to GamerGate? How are editors to know that GamerGate is exempt from WP:RS, but Scientology, Creation Science, and the Protocols of the Elders of Zion are not? Can any editor declare the reliable sources are all biased and require special scrutiny, or is this privilege reserved for special editors? In that case, how are newcomers to know that the instruction to disregard WP:RS in the supposed interest of WP:NPOV comes from a special editor who can authorize this? Can any group apply for a GamerGate exemption to WP:RS -- and if so, to whom do they send they petition? This is not a contribution to the encyclopedia; this discussion should be closed and should not be revisited until the preponderant judgment of reliable sources has clearly changed. If WP:CPUSH has any force at all, does it not apply here? This argument appears to be taken almost verbatim from section 2.3.3 of WP:FLAT.”

Now, has the preponderant judgment of reliable sources changed since February? Have new ethical concerns been raised, or acknowledged, or received wide coverage, or any coverage at all? No: if anything, recent coverage (Boston Magazine, ThinkProgress, The Hill) is more dismissive of the supposed concerns about journalism. Is the proposition that Gamergate concerns ethics in journalism less WP:FRINGE than in February? No. Is journalism central to Gamergate? Only if Gamergate's notable actions -- threatening to assault, rape, or murder women in computer science -- is understood to be a means of redressing grievances in journalism, a proposition that is the very model of the modern major general WP:FRINGE and one that, as best I can recall, no respectable (much less reliable) source has entertained.

Enough.MarkBernstein (talk) 16:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

If you're eager to relitigate old arguments, I suggest you do so on your blog. The issues I've raised are different. The pertinent question is not how sources have changed since February, but whether in that interval the article has ceased to be OWNed. I don't see that it has. Repeated reference is made to Misplaced Pages policies that there seems to be little interest in actually following. I have presented a shibboleth: Which editors are for following the sources, and which editors are for maintaining a maximally derogatory article by whatever arguments are expedient? Rhoark (talk) 18:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you have a specific edit you'd like to suggest? — Strongjam (talk) 18:35, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, in due course. Rhoark (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

So make it. Otherwise this isn't productive. — Strongjam (talk) 18:42, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

You have indeed presented a shibboleth, but ... (sorry, everyone, but opportunities like this don’t come every day!) I don’t think it means what you think it means. This appears to be WP:FORUM or WP:SOAPBOXING, perhaps intended for the offsite audience to which this has been advertised on 8chan and many reddits. As there's nothing new and nothing actionable, I'd like to request someone close this.MarkBernstein (talk) 18:51, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Rhoark, please Assume Good Faith; we're all here to write an encyclopedia and to produce an accurate article, even if we have different views on the world, different readings of sources, different interpretations of what they mean and so on. I've read your list of sources (naturally, I'm well-familiar with all of them!), and to me your interpretation of them is simply not convincing; you included many obscure, unreliable or fringe sources and many blogs, all from similar points of view, while weighing them against some of the most high-profile mainstream publications in the world. To use them the way you are suggesting we should would would be giving them WP:UNDUE weight. Likewise, your quotations and summaries read to me as cherry-picked; you took the few individual sentences from more reliable articles that could support your reading, and highlighted them. Those aspects are currently covered, but they're given the weight and prominence appropriate to their representation in reliable sources. --Aquillion (talk) 18:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

It would be excellent if we could all proceed under the assumption of good faith, but I'm not a stranger to the storied history of this article and the editors active within it. Assumptions are for when there is no prior knowledge. I'm beyond assuming anything. I'm not bothering with casting aspersions. I'm putting cards on the table, and those I have in mind can hold or fold. There are edits coming, lots of them, but not until they are organized, researched, and article-ready. This article came back to my attention through an unexpected ping, and quality takes time. I've learned that assumption of good faith will not be extended to me, so I will not share premature thoughts to be spun into strawmen. In the meantime, there are still meta-objections to discuss. I've stated that all of the listed sources are reliable for some use. I stand by the excerptions I have made as the most direct and pertinent answers each article offers to the two selected questions. You dispute these claims, but not with specifics. Some of these sources may inform my future edits, so it could save time to hash them out now. Or such concerns could be completely orthogonal to the claims I end up citing, and the exercise would be a waste. Participation is at your discretion. Rhoark (talk) 20:24, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Well thanks for announcing your intentions to make edits, but I'm not sure what use that is. Make edits when you're ready and if other editors have issues with those edits then it will be discussed. What are you looking to get out of this discussion? — Strongjam (talk) 20:36, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think I've been pretty specific about my objections (especially to sources that I don't feel are usable; I've listed them specifically.) You haven't really answered any of that, you've just said that you want to use these sources. We've discussed all of those blogs and sources specifically in the past; we can go over them one by one if you want. I definitely oppose using TechCrunch, metaleater, and CinemaBlend as sources when so many higher-profile and higher-quality ones are available; it would be giving them WP:UNDUE weight to focus on them. Most of the blogs you listed don't strike me as noteworthy beyond what's currently in the article. In general, though, you obviously have to try and reach consensus for any significant changes; you have to be willing to engage with as least most of the people here and extend them a degree of trust, or we're never going to get anywhere at all. Anyway, since you invited implicitly invited me to provide more specifics, I will place my comments on each of your sources and your interpretation of them after their place in your list. --Aquillion (talk) 21:26, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

That does not seem unreasonable for you or anyone interested to mark up the list items, if signed. Rhoark (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Alright, I've inserted comments where I think they're relevant. Apologizes for dropping them into your list, but since you want specific objections and discussion for each of the sources you listed, this seems like the most reasonable way to divide it up and avoid it devolving into just sweeping generalities. I've highlighted both sources I don't feel we can use, and areas where I feel you focused too much on one aspect of a source while ignoring the rest. Please respond to my concerns on each source before you use that source (or your interpretation or reading of it) in a rewrite; we've discussed all these sources before (I'm fairly sure we even discussed them with you), but it would be better to at least make sure we're all on the same page with regards to how everyone views them. Some objections (like opinion-posts from obscure sources) come up several times, so you might want to explain why you think we need to use those here rather than after each one; that's up to you. Even for the sources that are generally-usable and your summary is decent, I might have have additional objections later on based on how you use them and how much prominence you give a particular source (or an aspect from a particular source), but that will have to wait until you make more specific proposals. --Aquillion (talk) 21:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyway, after going over them, my own reading of what the overwhelming majority of reliable sources say (excluding the sources I indicated to not really be usable): GamerGate caused a large amount of harassment of women in the industry, and this is the main focus of the vast majority of articles. GamerGate started with a campaign of harassment against Zoe Quinn based on a false accusation about her (and expanded to cover other women); this history is the second main focus of coverage, and is mostly uncontroversial history. GamerGate is a culture war over the future of games and the changing face of gaming. Some people say that it is about fighting for one variety of ethics or another, but this claim is controversial at best (in sources that don't go into competing claims) and outright dismissed by many of the most reliable sources. The sources that talk about it in depth indicate that the accusations are contradictory, amorphous, and (when there is any detail) often clearly false; most sources characterize them as a conspiracy theory of some variety. (Even some of the blogs I dismissed describe it as a conspiracy, albeit more as a "conspiracy fact" rather than a "conspiracy theory.") There is almost universal agreement among those that discuss politics that GamerGate is a pushback against progressivism; one or two of the blogs you cited disagree with this, but even there, again, most of them agree, they just take the perspective that it needs to be pushed back. That looks, roughly, like what the article currently says; we have section on each of those aspects, with weight appropriate to their coverage in reliable sources, and generally pretty good sourcing overall. What's your specific objection? --Aquillion (talk) 22:17, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

While I agree with about 90% of this assessment, there is a fact missing that is clear in the most reliable sources: there are two different groupings when the word GG is used: there is the users of the hashtag, some which use it for harassment, and there is GG the movement that has expressed ethics concerns. The overlap or common composition of these two groups is vague and unknown to these sources, so the highest reliable sources do not attempt to attribute the illegal activity of harassment to the movement/ethics supporters though do express that they are creating the situation where harassment is not discouraged or in fact encouraged. Our article does not make that distinction and treats the movement the same as the GG hashtag users, and thus prejudges the entire group as guilty of a crime, which WP absolutely cannot do. We should also not be prejudging the ethics group based on the dismissed claims - as Rhoark has pointed out, no matter how much a claim has been dismissed by reliable sources, it is still WP's role to document those to the best of our abilities (which we can with the current sources and without violating UNDUE). We should be making the same assumptions that the highest sources have made, that it is difficult to separate who is harassing, who is just using the hash tag, and who is arguing for ethics, and give those that are engaging is legal free speech (the ethics sans harassment) the appropriate objective treatment we have given to the victims and not presume they have done anything wrong. Several sources explain the situation as a debate about ethics that has been sidetracked by harassment, which is a very conservative, non-judgemental approach. We still focus first and foremost on the historical facts - harassment has happened, the victims have had to take actions, there's attempts to go after the harassers - and we still need to give due weight to the amount of criticize of the use of harassment and how it ties to a culture war. It is simply that we should be covering the GG movement in a non-judgement, objective manner to explain their points, how their points have subsequently been dismissed by the press at large, and how the unorganized movement is not helping their cause. All this information is in the article, already supported by the RSed, but not written in the tone or organization that presents this more academic approach to the topic and following more closely the less-aggressive stance of the more reliable sources on the matter. And that requires a thoughtful and slow rewriting process, so it's not just a few changes, so it's difficult to beg one for "what edits do you want made". --MASEM (t) 02:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no GG movement outside the hashtag because there is no organisation and there are no leaders. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 02:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Masem, you've been told you can't use your OR for this. And it is OR, because the RS do not support your position. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 06:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

There is no OR here. This is a summary of what the sources says - the users of the hashtag, the harassers, and the movement are treated as different aspects but with possible (and perhaps fully 100%) crossover. They make it clear that the ethics people are likely not harassing but they aren't helping the situation that much. EG from NYTimes "The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage." . It makes it clear the harassers are not necessarily the same as the ethics. WA POst "That isn’t to say that everyone flying the #Gamergate banner is sexist/racist/crazy, and that isn’t to say there aren’t some decent arguments about journalism ethics being made. But whatever voices of reason may have existed, at some point, have been totally subsumed by the mob." (And the last sentence there is the criticism I've said should still be in the article to say that any reasonable attempt to talk while flying the GG flag has been tainted) --MASEM (t) 06:28, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

no academic sourrce has ever given the slightest credence to Gamergate's purported concern for "ethics", because no academic source, or any source at all, can explain what threatening to rape software developers could accomplish in reforming journalism. MarkBernstein (talk) 02:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Mark, I believe you just proved Rhoark's point. As I'm sure you know, few academic sources have written about Gamergate. But as it turns out, it's actually quite possible to give credence to Gamergate's ethical concerns without justifying rape threats. Case in point, one of the few referenced academic articles, from the Nordic Journal of Science and Technology Studies, is quite interesting. You should read it, because from your comment it appears that perhaps you have not. Here's a direct quote from the paper: " has become a focal point for a range of grievances in game culture, but ethics in game journalism and the role of women in games and game culture are the most prominent and polarizing. For those concerned with the role of women in games the movement, which has been repeatedly linked to cybermobs harassing female game critics and -makers, has itself become proof that games and gamers are sexist. For those troubled by corruption and politicization of the games industry, #gamergate is a much needed grassroots movement." The authors discuss how Gamergate is actively pursuing ethical goals: "#gamergate has, among others, resulted in a sub-campaign called 'Operation Digging DiGRA' in which gamers band together to read through game studies papers to demonstrate that the research on gaming is actually ideologically compromised activism that aims to impose a censorial content control on games." Toward the end of the article, the authors actually call Gamergate a consumer group: "Last but not least, in the case of #gamergate, they remain a large and wealthy consumer group. This of course underlines the old insight from power politics: Whatever the discourse, money talks." Now for the NPOV part. The current Misplaced Pages article uses only a single out-of-context sentence from that well-balanced and neutral paper to prove that Gamergate has "anti-feminist ideologies" (which is borderline original research -- the paper says absolutely nothing about feminism). Can you see the problem now? The other academic papers, "Sexism in the circuitry" from the Association for Computing Machinery and "A Conspiracy of Fishes, or, How We Learned to Stop Worrying About #GamerGate and Embrace Hegemonic Masculinity" from the Journal of Broadcasting & Electronic Media, are behind a pay wall. I'm unashamed to announce that I have not read either of those articles, though I'd love to see what kind of credence they give to Gamergate's ethical concerns. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 06:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

You are mistaken. That's not an academic article, it's an editorial (as it says at the top). It cannot be cited for statements of fact, only used to illustrate an opinion. In this case you should probably be thankful that it is only an editorial, though! Even as far as its opinion goes, I think you're misreading it; it notes that "The success of #gamergate and #operationdiggingdigra is debatable, as is their intent" and goes on to explicitly state that "in the case of #gamergate, it is the explicit goal of many of the participants to exclude groups of people, particularly women, from the debate and from the game industry and limit women’s rights as citizens." It also states that "In light of this, how should we address the antidemocratic voices of #gamergate?" In context, it fits in with what the Misplaced Pages article currently says -- that there are people who claim GamerGate is about ethics (for a variety of different, often contradictory and poorly-expressed definitions of 'ethics', generally centered around a belief that there is some sort of progressive / feminist conspiracy among game designers and / or the gaming media), but that that claim is generally not taken seriously, with writers who have analyzed it in depth finding many people behind it to be instead primarily driven by a desire to use the hashtag as a platform to advance an ideological agenda. In the case of that paper, say they specifically identify the agenda behind many people in GamerGate as an attempt to "exclude groups of people, particularly women, from the debate and from the game industry and limit women’s rights as citizens" and as "anti-democratic" (note that they don't couch this part in he-said, she said the way they do the parts you quoted -- they state this as fact.) Those are pretty strong words, but that's just me quoting what it says; like I said, you should probably be thankful it is just an editorial! --Aquillion (talk) 06:34, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Request close

As there is no specific content proposal, I suggest this section be closed as WP:DEADHORSE . I also suggest that any major re-writes be proposed in the draft space first. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 13:35, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Support close per no content change suggested. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd love to see this section bring about some actual suggestions for changes to our article- this broad discussion makes it very hard to pick up on the exact things those posting would like changed (or not) in the article. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 18:45, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Oppose If you can't discuss policy without a concrete proposal at hand, here's a proposal: Change the first sentences of the lede to "The Gamergate controversy is a set of interrelated debates about gender, censorship, and journalistic integrity. It widely known for the online harassment directed at multiple participants, particularly Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian". Rhoark (talk) 19:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That would be UNDUE. So no to that edit. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 19:06, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Obviously impossible. Moreover, to call Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian participants in the Gamergate Controversy suggests that they chose to participate. In neither case is this apparently true, and in the case of Zoe Quinn is it both known to be a lie and is a libel. Does anyone remember this use of Misplaced Pages as a murder threat? Please redact and call oversight to expunge. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Ridiculous histrionics. "Participant" does not connote willingness, and even if it did you'd be stuffing words in my mouth with a crowbar. Here's a better intro anyway: "The Gamergate controversy is a set of interrelated debates about gender, censorship, and journalistic integrity. The most widely publicized aspect of the controversy are the violent threats made against Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian, among others. Such threats are believed to come from a tiny minority of participants on both sides of the debate." Rhoark (talk) 20:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

As a suggestion for a re-write of the intro, that is a: No. Not even close to representing what the reliable sources have found notable and worth covering.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Participation & Lede change

Participation means taking part and is always volitional. Again, you second suggestion is risible. "Tiny minority" is by its nature unprovable; for all practical purposes, since the only notable activity of Gamergate is its threats of rape, murder, and mayhem, the only notable participants are the people sending those threats -- and so ALL of Gamergate is involved in the harassment. I know of no evidence whatsoever that Gamergate opponents have threatened to murder Anita Sarkeesian or Zoe Quinn. Please stop this. MarkBernstein (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Did anyone say Gamergate opponents have threatened to murder Sarkeesian or Quinn? I know I didn't say that. I don't think any RS's have said that. RS's have certainly documented death, rape, and bomb threats from Gamergate opponents. Only unreliable blogs come close to even implying that every last one of the 10's of thousands of gaters are involved in harassment. In fact, "small minority" is a phrase used quite often. Just what sources are you relying on for your information? Rhoark (talk) 20:46, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't recall any reliable source that reports that any specific Gamergate supporter files a police report regarding threats comparable to those reported by Gamergate's victims. Because the only notable activity of Gamergate has been its threats of rape, murder, and mayhem, the only notable participants are the people sending those threats. Gamergate does not have official members or adherents; a Gamergate supporter can only be known as such because they support Gamergate's notable actions, to wit, misogynistic harassment. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

On what sources do you base the assertion that all, or even most, Gamergate supporters are involved in harassment? Rhoark (talk) 23:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

What article content are you wishing to add, modify or remove? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:45, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I propose (a slight c.e. of my last suggestion) that the first sentences of the lede be altered to

"The Gamergate controversy is a set of interrelated debates about gender, censorship, and journalistic integrity. The most widely publicized aspects of the controversy have been the violent threats made against Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian. Such threats against these and other individuals are believed to come from a small minority of participants on either side of the debate."

I would not ordinarily begin with the lede in rehabilitating an article, but under duress I've offered this suggestion off the cuff. Even so, there has not been a credible rebuttal to this suggestion. Besides Mark Bernstein's murky comments, it has been claimed that the proposed edit is either UNDUE or not reflective of the reliable sources. That has been the response, even within this section establishing exactly this type of language as being what the most reliable sources have chosen to use. Rhoark (talk) 01:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• strong oppose the suggested wording grossly fails to represent the reliable sources which, not surprisingly do not consider relentless misogynistic harassment campaigns as "discussions" -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:46, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Which sources? As I have pointed out, this description is consistent with reporting in The New York Times, New York Magazine, The New Yorker, NPR, CNN, CJR, The Washington Post, and Al Jazeera. There's also Pacific Standard, Vox, Forbes, Slate, Nieman Reports, TechCrunch, Spiked, Reason, RealClearPolitics, Metaleater, CinemaBlend, Polygon, Adam Smith Institute, and Daily Caller. Sources running the "ethics are a smokescreen" angle include Wired, Ars Technica, Jezebel, and Boston Globe - making a minority opinion and still differing from my suggestion only in terms of emphasis rather than outright contradiction. Rhoark (talk) 04:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

As pointed out multiple times above, even the sources that you have cherrypicked do not support your interpretation. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:45, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Nothing of the kind has been pointed out. What has been pointed out is that 1) The sources emphasize the importance of harassment, which I believe my suggestion states explicitly. 2) Many of the arguments are motivated by a position in the "culture war", which would be a fine thing to go into in the subsequent sentences. Rhoark (talk) 13:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Strong oppose: In the wildly unlikely event that this ever appeared as Misplaced Pages's opinion on Gamergate, it would instantly be the subject of scorn and derision. MarkBernstein (talk) 03:12, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It already is the subject of scorn and derision, and that's not a policy-based argument. Rhoark (talk) 04:03, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

there is a clear difference between being the subject of scorn and derision by people who matter and are respected for their opinions and being the subject of scorn and derision by people who dont know what "ethics" means. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:13, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages does not judge people in that manner, that is a non-starter. --MASEM (t) 04:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Of course we judge sources upon whether or not they understand basic concepts that they are utilizing. You personally might decide to give weight to opinions of a horde of harassers who have no concept of what "ethics" means, and that is just fine if that is how you want to structure your personal ethics. On Misplaced Pages, however, we do not care nor give weight to nonsensical views in relation to presenting the content that is widely supported by actual reliable sources - like those analysts who actually understand what "ethics" means. You need to stop pushing your gamergate apologetics viewpoint against those sources because of some special personal knowledge that you claim to possess. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 11:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

How many personal attacks do editors have to endure before you are topic banned? Didn't arbcom discuss this about you? Please stop. --DHeyward (talk) 12:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Where did I say anything about sources? I am talking about editors' attitudes and opinions that are the basis of trying to soapbox the issue. If an editor can in, insisted that all GGERS are murderers and refused to move off that base, that would be disruptive. Note that no source says that GG ers do not know what "ethics" mean - the ethics concerns raised have claimed to be in actionable or not true, but not that they aren't invalid use of the word ethics. --MASEM (t) 17:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, Masem, I believe you are mistaken. For example, is quite clear that, while Gamergate insists ethics are their chief focus, they aren't: "You guys know as well as I do that a movement based on the stated goal of regaining gaming ground lost to feminists and so-called SJWs would not do very well from a PR perspective. But you’re in a bind, because other than that, the ethics charges are all you’ve got and they happen to be (1) 98 percent false; (2) complicated to follow for the layperson; and (3) pretty clearly a ruse given the underlying ideology of the folks pushing this line forward." Read the whole piece -- there's lots of detail on ethics claims. The CJR piece is definitive and similarly dismissive. No valid ethical complaint has been advanced, and no notable action of Gamergate could reasonably be expected to advance any grievance regarding journalistic ethics. A close reading of TRPoD also reveals no hint of a personal attack; he is refuting (again) the constantly-iterated and endlessly refuted argument that one editor's expert knowledge of Gamergate motives should be used to unskew the consensus of reliable source." MarkBernstein (talk) 18:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for referencing some sources; however, they do not support the positions you have taken. Singal alleges that ethics issues are a ruse, but a ruse for fighting the culture war, not for harassing women. The culture war business is different from journalistic integrity, but still an argument about ethics in a different domain. This is something I accounted for in my proposed edit, placing "gender" and "censorship" ahead of "journalistic integrity" in describing what Gamergate is about. Singal also contextualizes his dismissal of the journalism angle with his defense of the JournoList, of which he was a member. This makes it clear that what he writes should be attributed as opinion and should not have overriding weight in the lede. CJR is mostly summarizing the spectrum of reporting, with the thesis that it's difficult to tell just what's going on. It says ethics issues have been debunked by way of summarizing two articles. The first is in Ars Technica, where Kyle Orland says his mailings to GameJournoPros were errors in judgement and "crossed the line", but disputes that what he said influenced other journalists. The fact there was smoke but no fire doesn't mean criticisms were unjustified or insincere. The other source that CJR links is Kotaku editor Stephen Tolito sharing his opinion that Nathan Grayson did not act improperly. That's an opinion that should be in the article for sure, but we have sources explicitly saying the Grayson issue is much smaller than the totality of ethics allegations. Rhoark (talk) 19:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

That is nor what I said. There is a huge difference between taking the ethics claims if GG as invalid (which is reasonable for us to include per sources) and assuming GG do not know what a word means, implying stupity. No source has claimed GG as not knowing what ethics means, only that their ethics ideals are flawed. Starting from the assumption that GG are stupid is a nonstarter.--MASEM (t) 18:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• To me, these anti-intellectual players, who want games to be “just games” and want criticism of them to be devoid of things like political and social context, are almost as worrisome as the horrifying, and criminal, actions of the harassers. If not directly stupid, anti-intellectual as to be as dangerous to society as massive harassment campaigns.
• Some denounce harassment but consider the tag a demand for better ethical practices in video-game journalism, including more objective reporting and a removal of politics from criticism. (Never mind that Gamergate itself is awash in politics). either stupid or completely hypocritical.
• And yet Alexander's piece — and others like it — has taken on a central role in the larger narrative #GamerGaters tell themselves about why they're fighting, despite the fact that they've completely and utterly misread it. Incapable of interpreting a straightforward article correctly.
• And lets not forget what the incomparable Kluwe had to say about that "Dear #Gamergaters, Do you know why you piss me the fuck off? Because you’re lazy. You’re ignorant. You are a blithering collection of wannabe Misplaced Pages philosophers, drunk on your own buzzwords, incapable of forming an original thought. You display a lack of knowledge stunning in its scope, a fundamental disregard of history and human nature so pronounced that makes me wonder if lead paint is a key component of your diet. You think you’re making piercing arguments when, in actuality, you’re throwing a temper tantrum that would embarrass a three-year-old. ... Thus, when I see an article titled “Gamers are dead,” referring to the death of the popular trope of a pasty young man in a dimly lit room, it fills me with joy, because it means WE FUCKING WON. So many people are playing games now that they are popular culture. ...You slopebrowed weaseldicks with zero reading comprehension and even less critical thinking skills who think an article claiming “Gamers are dead” is something bad? Fuck me sideways with a sandblaster. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Are you proposing to use this combination of sources to support the claim Gamergaters are stupid? I believe that would be WP:SYNTH. Rhoark (talk) 04:35, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

(EC)Medium.com is not a reliable source as an SPS and obvious an opinion piece so that one doesn't apply; Of the others, they do criticize the chain of thought and logical fallacies of GGers which I don't question, but that's far different from calling them as "not knowing what 'ethics' mean" or stupid. To say otherwise is soapboxing or original research, or otherwise against policy. --MASEM (t) 04:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Well clearly Masem, WE KNOW these are widely held beliefs and so even if medium.com is not a reliable source that we can use to call poop sock sniffers, poop sock sniffers we need to write the article accommodate the white spaces that the reliable sources are not covering so that the stupidity of the claims of gamergaters is not hidden. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

There is a very big difference between calling the claims of GG stupid (which I could argee you can probably find some support in sources), and calling the people of GG stupid, which is not at all supported by sources, and would be a violation of NOR, NPOV, and SOAPBOXing. It is a significant difference to understand for proper consensus building. --MASEM (t) 05:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I guess you are right Masem. People who make stupid claims, even multiple stupid claims, even repeatedly and even after the stupidity of the claims has been demonstrated are not necessarily stupid. They are just.... wellllll, gamergaters. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 05:11, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Where claims seem particularly stupid, take care to examine whether the claims are being described by their proponents or their opponents. Claims about gamers hating politics are generally straw men. Pillars of Eternity asked hard questions about abortion and medical ethics. The Twitter outrage machine only cared there was a joke about a transvestite. Deus Ex was ahead of its time in commenting about income inequality and government surveillance. It's been frequently voted as the best PC game of all time. Critics are upset that the next installment will explore racism through the well-worn scifi trope of using robots/cyborgs/aliens/etc as a stand-in for actual minorities. Gamers adore Thief and Dishonored for offering the challenging option of a completely non-violent play-through, but reject Thompson-esque moral panic about violence in general. This is the sort of thing that gamers mean when they say they don't like politics. There are some RS's that deal with these incidents individually and tangentially, but stitching them together would be SYNTH. As far as I know, this dynamic hasn't received the coherent unified exploration it deserves. May another editor is aware of such a source? Or Auerbachkeller (talk · contribs) could come to the rescue and write one ;) Rhoark (talk) 16:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

One could look at the actual claims being made. I would suggest buying a gallon or two of Visine first, your eyes will never feel clean again, but eye drops by the buckeloat will help some. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 18:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not think that phrase means what you think it means. QED. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding reliability and due weight

The commentary added to the above sources seems to fall in two groups: expanding the quotations to capture some nuances that might have been missing, and reservations about due weight of opinions. The first set seem perfectly reasonable, but don't really alter the larger equation. When it comes to editorial opinion sources, I have a few points to make.

• Reliability and due weight are two different policies. There are inevitably going to be a lot of reliably attributable opinions that just don't make it into the article for one reason or another. However, the requirements of NPOV are first and foremost about the range of views rather than the range of sources. If we go through all the small outlets one by one and say "nope, not due weight" we can go through the whole pile that way. At the end of the day, some representative samples of significant viewpoints still have to be selected.
• This is not the same as giving weight to views in unreliable sources. This is about reliable sources. Proportional weight can be smaller, but it can't be zero.
• Unreliable sources can not be used as a source of material, but they can be used to guide editorial decisions about how to use sourced material. Reactions and republications of minor reliable opinion pieces in unreliable media could easily help determine which ones are most representative of significant viewpoints.
• Whether or not a claim is opinion is often fuzzy. A piece marked as opinion can present facts in support of its argument, and factual reporting can have emotive interjections. It's up to editors to determine the context.
• Size and notability of a publication are part of reliability, but so is expertise. Game publications, technology publications, political publications, etc. bring to bear domain expertise that a generalist newspaper doesn't have. Smaller publications can be the best for certain matters of fact, as well as describing points of view.
• A publication's circulation is also not the only driver for due weight. Some aspects of the topic are simply too complicated or not interesting to a general audience. Misplaced Pages should not subsume encyclopedic interest entirely to the weighting decisions of newspapers, because Misplaced Pages is WP:NOTNEWS.
• On the whole, most of the views that need to be present are present, but they are not presented neutrally. Mostly this is through WP:STRUCTURE, but also through overgeneralization in summarizing sources. The overall effect is that the article fails to explain sides, while also appearing to take a side - opposite of what WP:NPOV prescribes.

Rhoark (talk) 18:49, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Proportional weight can be smaller, but it can't be zero Yes it can. We're not required to include every opinion about all matters in some form as WP:UNDUE and WP:V make clear. — Strongjam (talk) 18:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, I have never at any time made any false allegations in The Guardian. MarkBernstein (talk) 19:08, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I've redacted. — Strongjam (talk) 19:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

The article doesn't take a "side" - the article presents what the situation. some people affiliated with GG have made claims such as "but ethics!" - the reliable sources have reviewed the claims and laughed them off the stage. to report that some farcical claims have been made and no one takes them seriously is not "taking sides" when that is what has happened. It is reporting with appropriate WP:NPOV. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 19:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Proportional weight can indeed be zero. In fact, it very often is. Per WP:UNDUE: "If a viewpoint is held by a significant minority, then it should be easy to name prominent adherents" (emphasis in original), and "If a viewpoint is held by an extremely small (or vastly limited) minority, it does not belong in Misplaced Pages, regardless of whether it is true or you can prove it, except perhaps in some ancillary article." If you cannot name prominent adherents of a view, it is inappropriate to cite obscure ones simply for the sake of "balance". In fact, doing so is a violation of WP:VALID. Therefore, we probably cannot cite them for statements of opinion without giving them undue weight, and we certainly cannot use them to inform the structure of the entire article or the phrasing of the lead, the way you are requesting. As far as using them as a source for facts goes, that's even worse; WP:V states that "Editorial commentary, analysis and opinion pieces, whether written by the editors of the publication (editorials) or outside authors (op-eds) are reliable primary sources for statements attributed to that editor or author, but are rarely reliable for statements of fact." WP:RSOPINION states something similar. Given that the core of WP:RS is that articles should be based on "reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy" and that none of the sources I dismissed really seem to meet that standard, it seems trivially absurd to suggest that we could use an opinion piece for them as a basis for statements of fact -- the issue is not size or circulation (though those are sometimes correlated to this), the issue is that they lack an established reputation. Anyone can create a small start-up news site to publish fringe articles, but until they've built a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy, their site will not be a reliable source on Misplaced Pages. From your posts, I've gathered that you don't trust the mainstream media, and I can sympathize with that to an extent. But for the most part, an encyclopedia is not the appropriate place to push back against that and try to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS; we reflect the mainstream consensus among reliable sources, touching on minority views to the extent that we can find reliable sources covering them (but from a perspective that makes it clear that it is the minority view, without giving it equal validity under WP:VALID). WP:FRINGE viewpoints for which there are no prominent reliable sources are not covered at all. (Again, I'll point out that for the most part, the positions you're talking about already are covered in the article; they're just covered from the perspective that they're a minority view among reliable sources, which has to be reflected in the entire article structure per WP:UNDUE.) --Aquillion (talk) 20:20, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I clearly did not qualify my statement enough. There can obviously be many circumstances where the due weight of a view is zero. However, the aggregate weight of dozens of low-weight sources saying similar things is not zero - especially when they are elaborating on views that sources like CJR and NPR thought was worth at least mentioning. The view is significant, even if any single publisher is not. As for the rest, its highly contextual, but I think you're giving far too little credit in particular to TechCrunch and RealClearPolitics w.r.t. their reputation for accuracy. Rhoark (talk) 20:58, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

the aggregate weight of no weight sources is zero. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:53, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Paraphrase

In the hashtag section, which was beginning to look like a heap of scare quotes, I've replaced a couple of the most egregious instances with brief paraphrases. I've also fixed one instance where the misogynistic attacks on Quinn, etc, are mischaracterised as "coordinated discussions." --TS 13:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It would probably not hurt to review all quotes to make sure that there is prose directly attributing the source as to avoid the appearance of scare quotes (quotes when no inline prose attribution is give), either adding the inline attribution or paraphrasing. --MASEM (t) 13:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That sounds like a good idea, so I took a look at the first few quotations in the article. My first impression is that the current revision contains far too many quoted phrases where a simple statement of fact, or at worst an attributed paraphrase, would serve better. I may give the article a going over if I find the time. --TS 14:17, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

DeepFreeze value as an EL

-gate Clarification

new articles

• http://www.themarysue.com/phd-in-gamergate/
• http://www.ibtimes.com/e3-2015-gamergate-still-casts-shadow-gaming-industry-would-prefer-you-forget-about-it-1967194 (Can someone explain IBT's journalism model to me?)

ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:40, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Not sure I can explain their journalism model, but these might help: International Business Times, Newsweek, and IBT Media. — Strongjam (talk) 17:44, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Maturization of videogames, if that's a real word

The word is "maturation". Rhoark (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Antifeminism

The editorial from the Nordic Journal of Science and Technology Studies is being used as a citation to state that "Gamergate has been described as involving anti-feminist ideologies." I removed this citation, and my edit was reverted. The editorial never mentions the ideology of feminism. It says: "the explicit goal of many of the participants to exclude groups of people, particularly women, from the debate and from the game industry and limit women’s rights as citizens." This is not the same as "opposition to feminism" which is the narrow definition of antifeminism. Stating that "excluding groups of people, particularly women" = "opposing the ideology of feminism" is original research. Women ≠ Feminism. Sexism or antidemocratic (the term used in the article) would be the more appropriate term to use. Note, I am not asking that we remove this sentence from the article, and it appears that other references have been added to bolster the sentence. I am only claiming that using this reference as evidence that Gamergate is described as having an antifeminist ideology is incorrect. This is why I removed the reference again. ColorOfSuffering (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I reverted it again. The reference may not directly say anti-feminism, but it with the vice reference can reasonably be paraphrased taht way. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 23:08, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

For context, previously discussed here. The main defining attribute of feminism is equal rights for women. "Anti-feminist ideologies" is a fair summary of "limiting womens' rights as citizens". — Strongjam (talk) 23:09, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Raises concerns of WP:SYNTH - Ryk72 23:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

How so? Limiting womens rights as citizens is pretty much the dictionary definition of anti-feminist ideology. — Strongjam (talk) 23:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree with this reading; it's a reasonable paraphrase. Rhoark (talk) 23:55, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

No concerns of WP:SYNTH at all. The nature of paraphrase is that we substitute synonyms and summarize positions. To say that "The main defining attribute of feminism is equal rights for women" is no more synthesis than to say that supporters of (say) George W. Bush are Republicans, that the Pope is Catholic. or the Marais is in Paris. Good grief~ MarkBernstein (talk) 23:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

We have plenty of reliable sources stating that Gamergate opposes the ideology of feminism, where it is stated explicitly without the requirement of synonyms. The article never mentions feminism. Why not just keep the stronger sources to support that sentence? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 23:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

"Why not just keep the stronger sources to support that sentence?" because when that happens, then people complain about things not being sourced well enough. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 23:31, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't know. ColorOfSuffering may have a point that our summary doesn't accurately represent the source. I mean, the source does say "women"—twice, even!—and then it mentions the primary goal of feminism. I think a better summary would be "Gamergate has been described as involving anti-feminist, anti-woman, and anti-democratic ideologies as it transparently seeks to restrict women's rights, censor ideological opponents, and bar them from the games industry". I think that's a fair summary of the above quote. Woodroar (talk) 23:42, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It's not a pa~rticularly strong source - it's an editorial, so opinion, and it requires synthesis of the actual content of the source with "The main defining attribute of feminism is equal rights for women" to support the article text it's being used for. - Ryk72 23:48, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Then we can go with Woodroar's suggestion. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 23:50, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Raises questions of WP:UNDUE - Ryk72 23:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Notice the long list of citations for the next sentence; many (even most) of them apply to the sentence you're referring to. I've moved a few up to make it clearer, but that sentence is well-cited (and carefully worded to make it clear that we're reporting their opinion rather than stating it as fact, of course.) Truthfully, if anything it should go into more detail, since the fact that a large number of high-profile commentators from reputable, mainstream sources have described GamerGate as containing or being driven by anti-feminist ideologies is extremely well-sourced. (Obviously not everyone agrees, but the section goes into that, too, and covers the various noteworthy perspectives with regards to people who say that the anti-feminists involved in GamerGate are just exploiting it, etc.) --Aquillion (talk) 23:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It is an editorial, so I don't see it as a particularly good source. Giving that much space to an opinion would be fairly undue. If we were to go that route we there are certainly other quotes from the editorial that can be added to the article. Such as "For those troubled by corruption and politicization of the games industry, #gamergate is a much needed grassroots movement." Or this good question: "Is this merely an outcry from people with conservative, one might say reactionary, values, masked in scientific rhetoric, or do they in fact, as they themselves claim, have different knowledge or expertise which is not taken into account in science or policy?" ColorOfSuffering (talk) 00:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

First, what it says has to be taken in the context of what other reliable sources say; we mention the anti-feminist description because it's something many high-profile commentators are in agreement on. Second, quotes have to be taken in the context of the entire piece; pulling a rhetorical question out of context is misrepresenting a source. The overall thrust of all four of the sources currently cited in that section clearly indicates that the authors agree on the fact that GamerGate is driven by anti-feminism. Third, what you're trying to read into it is already in the article (and, in fact, cited to better sources); we do discuss the debates over ethics allegations and the belief some people have in an unethical conspiracy among reviewers to focus on progressive social issues. But sources have to be read as a whole; that editorial, for instance, is clearly dismissive of that as a justification, since it weighs the two claims against each other, then says definitively that GamerGate is "anti-woman" and "anti-democratic." (Note in particular that it says that many within GamerGate are explicitly out to limit women's rights -- as in, it says that it is their stated goal.) I think that among the various sources it is a bit more strident than most in that regard, but that general dismissal -- not just of the ethics claims, but dismissal of the claim that ethics is actually what is driving the people who were most active under the hashtag -- is near-universal across reliable sources that go into any depth on the subject, including ones that are not editorials; so that's how we have to write the section that covers the sinister-unethical-conspiracy allegations. The majority of reliable sources that have gone into depth of GamerGate's goals and ideology -- the ones who have tried to figure out what it's about rather than just reporting that everything is controversial -- have come to the conclusion that, while it is big and complicated, it is ultimately driven by culture-warriors using it to score points in an ideological crusade against people they disagree with (or people they want out of "their" hobby), particularly progressivism and feminism. Therefore, while we can and do note that it is controversial and that some people disagree, that is the perspective our article needs to present as mainstream. --Aquillion (talk) 00:20, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I think I understand what you're getting at, and it's entirely reasonable. I disagree that the editorial reaches a particularly "strident" conclusion, but maybe that's because I don't see "anti-democratic" as being a particularly evocative word. It's a term of importance to those who study in the fields of public understanding, engagement and participation. To me, it appears that the authors deliberately avoided inflammatory terms like: harassment, misogyny, antifeminism, conspiracy, anti-woman, death threats, thuggish, criminal, hate group, et cetera. Also, I don't see the part where the article is "dismissive" of Gamergate's supposed focus on ethics. An actual quote might help me there. "Excluding groups of people" and "ethics in game journalism" are not mutually exclusive so far as I understand it. Different individuals in a group could reasonably hold both views with equal sincerity, could they not? ColorOfSuffering (talk) 00:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure, and you're free to insert content to that effect if you can get reliable sources for it. Otherwise it's just WP:OR. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 02:23, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The New York Times has described Gamergate as "this year’s antifeminist activist campaign":

“A lot of it was me dealing with ‘gamergate’ folks,” he said in an interview, referring to this year’s antifeminist activist campaign by some video game enthusiasts. “I’m like: ‘God, I’m wasting my life. Why am I spending time on this? There are so many other things I could be doing.’”

See . MarkBernstein (talk) 14:14, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, from New York Magazine:

“Just about everyone in there who spoke openly expressed how mad and frustrated they were that progressive politics and feminism were impinging on gaming, which they saw as an area they had enjoyed, free of politics, forever. They were extremely open about this. A day or so later, another gamergater, @Smilomaniac, asked me to read a blog post he’d written about his involvement in the movement in which he explicitly IDs as anti-feminist, and notes that while some people claim otherwise, he thinks GG is an anti-feminist movement. (He later added, via Twitter, “You're not distinguishing between feminism and 3rd wave radscum which is what ‘we’ dislike ;/ " — the clarification is appreciated.)”

New York Magazine on antifeminism. MarkBernstein (talk) 14:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Perfect! Those are very high-quality sources that use the word "antifeminism" to describe Gamergate! You should add them to the sentence, though I feel there are quite a few sources there already. I'm not sure why you posted this links. I completely agree that high quality reliable sources have called Gamergate an antifeminist movement. My only point is that the editorial appearing in the Nordic Journal of Science and Technology Studies never discusses feminism. The fact that it's an opinion, and that it requires "synonyms" makes it a lower-quality source. I felt it should be removed. Others disagreed. At this point I'm more than happy to cede the point and move on to other topics. Thanks for the fruitful discussion! ColorOfSuffering (talk) 18:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

That quote brings up an important point that there is not a singular definition of feminism or anti-feminism. While the main point of this thread is that describing opposition to women's rights as anti-feminist is a fair paraphrase, we should not equivocate in the opposite direction when a source calls something anti-feminist. We should take care to understand exactly what the source meant to denote. Rhoark (talk) 20:05, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

New essay/opinion from David Auerbach

Note: making sure this is clearly stated as an essay/opinion piece and only should be treated as such, but as a notable journalist involved in the situation, Auerbach's opinion does have weight. . --MASEM (t) 03:52, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Also to add, the thing to add is Auerbach's speculation on why most AAA pubs have been silent on GG (which I could have sworn the lack of response has been commented on before in RSes, but can't find immediately) .--MASEM (t) 03:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I believe that Auerbach is in a tiny minority in his statement that AAA games producers are even tacitly in support of Gamergate. The far more plausible reason for their silence is they have no desire to do anything to be places on the gamergate "acceptable target" list. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 04:08, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

It is interesting, but the article is self published as well as being an editorial. Without some additional support, his argument as to why AAA developers don't (generally) speak about Gamgergate doesn't seem particularly useful, and to be honest it doesn't seem overly accurate either. - Bilby (talk) 04:24, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

No, he's spot on. The difference is the AAA doesn't consider all gamergate supporters to be supporters of harassment campaigns against women. They are gamers and customers. Only the warped logic of wikipedia echoes "journos" views. It's clearly not what others think and their silence speaks more loudly than the "weight of reliable sources." Failing to differentiate Misplaced Pages from reality is why the article sucks. They ignored what journos complain is not ignorable. --DHeyward (talk) 04:37, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure that we are unable to use silence as a source. - Bilby (talk) 04:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Nope. Still, he's right. Misplaced Pages rules don't change reality. He's spot on about the failed expectations of those that "won" in October and are ignored with silence now. --DHeyward (talk) 05:01, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOTAFORUM. The important part is that this is both just his self-published opinion and WP:FRINGE, so highlighting it in the article would be giving it WP:UNDUE weight. --Aquillion (talk) 19:20, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Of course it's SPS. It's not fringe, though, and I'm not sure where you are coming from with that. He covered a press conference where GG related questions and concerns were shut down (again) - it's a followup to the money the industry gave late last year to fight sexism and an extension to social justice concerns and gains that were actually made in influencing AAA games. It's background material for article writers. It's a view about journalists expressed by a journalist that's covered the topic. If the goal is NPOV, this is part of what's missing in the article. The lack of "coverage of the coverage" in citable, reliable sources is a Misplaced Pages problem but that's our artificial construction of how we write. We can't change it but we should recognize it as missing and seek citable sources to use. Believe it or not, there is a journalism and social justice aspect to GamerGate and Auerbach is someone that has covered it. Despite the money given last year to Sarkeesian, et al, (that's a part of GamerGate and is not fringe and that money was not reparations for harassment), despite the questions posed to AAA trade groups, no "seat at the table" was given. Gaming press updated their policies regarding journalist fraternization and COI, but the industry hasn't changed to include social justice concerns the journalists are close to. That's Auerbach's observation and we gloss over those relationships and we completely miss the followup. --DHeyward (talk) 13:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

If there are no other sources stating that AAA is supporting Gamergate, a sole voice making such a claim when every other business that was seen as supporting gamergate has backpeddled so quickly and specifically announced their support of programs absolutely contrary to GG, making such a claim is indeed FRINGE. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 22:42, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think anyone said anything about supporting Gamergate. We make reference to many things that are fallout from gamergate though. Example is the legislation proposed by Mass congresswoman is fallout from gamergate but there are no sources that say explicitly that it is opposing gamergate. Gamergate isn't mentioned at all but we know she met with Wu and mentioned her. What's notable (and has been noted) is that the legislation is a very weak funding bill, there are no prosecutions even when the identity of harassers is known yet we don't say law enforcement is supporting gamergate. This Auerbach piece is showing very little progress in changing AAA games or giving gamergate opposers (since you seem to like framing it that way) any voice in development. In other words, nothing has happened, despite the articulation of how bad gamergate has been. We have given voice to the frustration of lack of prosecution and this is an observation of more of the same in the game dev arena. All the Bad Things about AAA games is being quite visibly ignored, just like prosecutions and just like legislation. Are you happy with the response to Gamergate at any level? Do you really think it's a fringe view that nothing is being done or do you selectively use it to make your point? Journalists are just as frustrated that AAA is not responding just as Wu is frustrated at Law Enforcement. Neither are fringe. One gets covered though. Auerbach points out that journalists are also frustrated. It's a SPS but that's it. It fits all other gamergate narratives expressing frustration and we should continue to look for sources that continue that point. --DHeyward (talk) 00:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You should think again, because it is right there in black and white " The AAAs *are* supporting Gamergate, at least tacitly. " I am not sure how much clearer of a statement one could make.-- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 00:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It's an SPS, and even though a case could be made that Auerbach is an expert, there's no way to stretch that to speculating on the motives of third parties. Rhoark (talk) 04:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a fantastic source for the opinion of Auerbach. I'm not sure Auerbach holds any sort of significance or expertise re: Gamergate though, so not sure if we'd be able to use his opinion too much. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 05:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

He's a reliable source cited in the article. This is largely an extension of what he wrote last September. Very prescient. --DHeyward (talk) 05:41, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

No, he himself is not a reliable source for anything outside his own opinion. I imagine he's written for reliable sources. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 07:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

He's a random person who has commented on it before; I don't see any reason why he'd be considered "involved" any more than any of the other numerous journalists who have qualified, which certainly isn't enough to let us cite his twitter. There was a time when people seemed weirdly determined to quote him on every aspect of the controversy, but I'm not seeing why we should lend him the degree of weight you're suggesting -- he's not particularly more notable than any other journalist who has commented, his opinions are clearly WP:FRINGE, and I don't see how he's more involved than the dozens of other journalists. Giving his personal opinions more attention than he already gets in the article would clearly be WP:UNDUE. Even in the one case where we do mention him, we're careful to combine it with another source to make it clear that that isn't just one guy's opinion; not seeing that here, especially since this essay is explicitly just his speculation. The fact that he's already mentioned in the article is just another reason not to include this, since repeatedly quoting one journalist with no special relevance to the subject would give the impression that we are giving his personal opinions undue weight... the article used to be a giant quotefarm of people using random editorials like this one to snipe at each other by proxy; that's why we rearranged it to group noteworthy opinions among commentators together under common themes, so we didn't end up with every quote or opinion piece that some random editor things is cutting or incisive dropped in at random (and so we could be sure that no one journalist's opinions is given undue weight.) --Aquillion (talk) 18:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, if you look at his contributions, I wouldn't consider him uninvolved. He participated in the Gamergate arbitration case so I would considered him more involved than a journalist who hadn't. Liz 20:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

His participation in the Arbitration case is no more involved than admins that participated. He defended his name and reputation against misattribution, but did not contribute to the article. He's also responded on his talk page when his education and experience was misstated. This is no different than, say, Gamaliel who was named as a party to the Arbcom case but still has acted as "uninvolved admin" during and after the case (even sanctions proposed by other uninvolved admins didn't deter action). Participation in process doesn't make them "involved." Auerbach's essay lacks editorial oversight that we normally associate with reliable sources and we usually consider both the writer and the editor. Had he written the piece in Salon, it would be reliable and citable. --DHeyward (talk) 21:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Nothing much to add here. A self-published essay by a single lone voice does not belong in the article; if there is a biographical article about Auerbach, and if it is a major part of his work, it may conceivably belong there. --TS 21:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

True. It's a place to look for reliable sources that express the same viewpoint or examples of that viewpoint. Particularly I'd look at game journos that write about AAA and E3. It's notable as a place to start looking, not a source to cite just as Sarkeesian's videos are notable but not citable. --DHeyward (talk) 00:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

We need reliable sources, not "game journos" who write alphabet soup. --TS 00:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Washington Post article sourcing statement about Gamergate supporters alleging Quinn/Grayson relationship was for favorable review

@Bilby:, take a careful look at the source. The second paragraph says "an ex-boyfriend wrote a blog post implying that she had traded sex for positive reviews". That does not support "Statements in the post led Gamergate supporters to allege that the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest." —Torchiest _edits 16:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand what you're saying here, @Torchiest:, after reading this repeatedly and with care. I wonder whether you've omitted a crucial word or something like that? MarkBernstein (talk) 17:21, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

The source doesn't say that "Gamergate supporters that the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest." It says the blog post implied it. According to whom? The author of that source, it seems. Note this doesn't change any text in the article, but simply removes a source being used incorrectly where there are already plenty of other sources. —Torchiest _edits 18:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I respect you caution with the source, but I'm a bit lost with what you're saying here. The line in our article reads "Statements in the post led Gamergate supporters to allege that the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest", and this seems to be fully supported by the Washington Post article. It makes it clear that the post (incorrectly) implied that Quinn had "traded sex for positive reviews", and that this lead to the campaign against Quinn, which in turn led to the campaigners claiming the GamerGate hashtag. - Bilby (talk) 22:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

is there confusion between the dirty double load laundry blog post vs the Washington Post? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not in a place I can readily review the past sources, but this is something to double check and maybe err with less exacting language. I've not read Gjoni's post, only what others have reported about it, but the recent "Game of Fear" article from Boston Magazine does not suggest the post included the "sex for reviews" claim, only that (per Gjoni's statements) that Quinn was cheating on him with Grayson who Gjoni did identify as a games journalist. I know this contradicts the above WAPost which is why I think a second review of exactly what Gjoni's post set in motion, and what came from the GG side should be delineated. Or if we can find language that avoids having to define the line, that might be easier than the nuances of the situation (being that events at the onset were not as well documented as they are now since no one saw this coming). --MASEM (t) 03:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that the contents Gonji's post is out of keeping with what is being claimed here. Gonji didn't state that there was any "sex for reviews", but per our wording, the contents of the blog post did lead others to (incorrectly) infer that it had occurred. This required Gonji to clear things up with an edit to the post, clarifying the timeline, but by then damage had already been done and the whole mess was underway. Fortunately, our wording doesn't accuse Gonji of making these claims, so we should be good. We're using the Washington Post article and the other sources to connect the three elements - Gonji's blog post; the accusations against Quinn; and the start of Gamergate. - Bilby (talk) 03:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Which is why I suggest maybe we can avoid having to discuss the specific nuances here with alternate wording that summarizes those three steps. --MASEM (t) 03:59, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough, but I think the current wording does summarise them :) Our current wording is:

In August 2014, Quinn’s former boyfriend, Eron Gjoni, published a 9,425 word blog post ... detailing their relationship. The post ... included the allegations that Quinn had a relationship with Nathan Grayson, a journalist for the video game news website Kotaku. ... Statements in the post led Gamergate supporters to allege that the relationship had induced Grayson to publish a favorable review of Depression Quest. The claim was quickly investigated and determined to be false.

The controversy, originally termed the "quinnspiracy", adopted the Twitter hashtag "Gamergate".

The timeline seems right - Gonji posted the blog post; his statements led people to infer that there was a problem with reviews; it was disproven; and it whole thing became known as Gamergate. - Bilby (talk) 04:22, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, I'm trying to be as clear as possible. As far as I can tell, the rest of the sources used to cite this statement are fine, and I am not suggesting changing the phrasing in our article. But the WaPo line doesn't specifically say that GG supporters alleged the relationship was an exchange for a good reviews. It says the post implied that, in other words, Gjoni implied that, not GG supporters. The WaPo article never specifically says that GG supporters believed there was an exchange of sex for reviews. And I'll emphasize again, I'm not saying that belief wasn't widely reported, or that it isn't the consensus view. I'm just saying this source doesn't support the exact statement in the article, and should be removed as a citation just from that one spot. The source is used elsewhere, appropriately as far as I know, and again, there are still half a dozen other sources supporting that statement. Since it's one of the key points of the controversy, it should be strongly supported, but that's my whole point. The WaPo source isn't strong on that line, at all. I think it's OR to knit the bits and pieces of statements in WaPo source together, simply based on the preponderance of other sources actually making the statement clearly. —Torchiest _edits 14:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we do better by victims of harassment?

I want to echo Mark Bernstein's statement at AE, "We have no business broadcasting murder threats against Gamergate's victims or broadcasting sexual gossip about Gamergate’s perceived enemies". I have mentioned already that I don't believe direct quotations of threats are in line with WP:AVOIDVICTIM. It may also be possible to further reduce the coverage given to sexual allegations. Reliable sources say that the allegations regarding Nathan Grayson are unsubstantiated, and in any case not the core of Gamergate's concerns. The article may be describing these things in more detail than is warranted by encyclopedic interest. Rhoark (talk) 16:01, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Not the core of GG concerns? RS make it clear that it was the flashpoint of the whole thing. Is there anything specific from the article you want to remove? — Strongjam (talk) 16:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Origin, yes. Core, no. I would like to see all direct quotes of threats removed. I'm also interested in what other people want removed. It's been asserted that this article is being used to perpetrate further harm against victims, and that is extremely serious. Rhoark (talk) 16:25, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I suppose that we could remove all mention of Gamergate’s harassment to "protect the victims." Then we could indeed rewrite the article to say that Gamergate is about ethics! And we could all get ponies! The problem is, this would be seen by the whole world as a palpable lie, and merited scorn would be heaped upon Misplaced Pages. Gamergate’s harassment is its only notable activity.

What we should do is watch this page, Zoe Quinn’s page, Brianna Wu’s page, and every other related page and their talk pages, and instantly revert and oversight any attempt to use Misplaced Pages to smear Gamergate’s targets, or those who would like to defend them. TRPoD, Strongjam, PeterTheFourth, and I have done this dozens of times, as did editors like Tarc and Ryulong. Some names that appear rather often here seem less often to be found rooting out the vile filth that Gamergate continues to exploit Misplaced Pages to spread. MarkBernstein (talk) 16:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that's happening? That's my perception, at least. I'm watching this, Wu, and Katherine Clark. I've never seen vandalism that was still live by the time I even saw the page move up on my watchlist. Is there something more you'd like people to do? Rhoark (talk) 16:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Utah gun law edit

https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Gamergate_controversy&diff=667440776&oldid=667427252

I'm not sure about the need for this edit. Comments? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:37, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Note: I'm not suggesting a revert of it, but I keep going back and forth over whether it helps clarify or just adds more words. I think part of the problem is that I know about Utah's law, so I don't see it as useful, but would the regular reader be served by the inclusion? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it's a good clarification, although I'm not particularly attached to it. Most readers probably won't be familiar with Utah gun laws (I'm not.) Not sure why we have the quotation marks though, we could do without those. — Strongjam (talk) 17:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Tightened the prose. Might remove the unlike other states bit, too. Not sure. Part of it just seems wordy maybe is my problem with the edit. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:54, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I tried tightening it a bit more to the salient points. As always ping if anyone wants me to self-revert and discuss more. — Strongjam (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Looks good. Rhoark (talk) 18:56, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Contrary to the original edit, this source says the legal situation is similar in other states. Rhoark (talk) 20:30, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Rhoark: Maybe I'm missing something, but that source seems to say the same thing as our article. It says "Utah is one of seven states that allow concealed carry on college campuses" and then adds "Utah law prohibits colleges from taking away concealed weapons from valid permit holders. Utah is the only state in the country with such a law." — Strongjam (talk) 20:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I suppose I missed that distinction. Rhoark (talk) 21:12, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I would trim the current version right back to "because of Utah's implementation of open carry." This should be supplemented by a source that competently explains the issue. The only salient point here is that Ms Sarkeesian was not satisfied that she'd be safe in an auditorium where anybody could show up armed and be allowed in. This is such an obvious point that we don't need to labour it. --TS 19:32, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

That seems too vague. The claim that the law precluded screening has also been disputed. I think this needs a little more detail to satisfy both NPOV and general encyclopedic interest. Rhoark (talk) 20:33, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Disputed by whom and where? -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 23:39, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Indeed if we have a source disputing this we should look at it. Please let's see the source.--TS 00:05, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Had to scour my browser history, but I found it. It's a local FOX affiliate quoting an attorney. USU is "reviewing" the claim. Rhoark (talk) 00:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

gotta love fox news facts - a statement about creating the largest school mass shooting is not "terrorism", its a "terroristic-type" threat. Right up there with the distinctions between "rape" and "rape-rape". -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 02:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we should rely on the the other reliable sources that simply declared it "not a credible threat" instead of worrying about whether the anonymous guy had access to nuclear weapons. Montreal is also known for lax gun control on Universities, too, for comparison. Oh wait, my BS detector is going off. --DHeyward (talk) 04:38, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be removed. It's not even clear that she would ever have received the security she asked for which I believe was metal detectors. Regardless of state, that decision and its cost would be weighed against its benefit. If Sarkeesian mentioned the law, then it should be mentioned as she stated it and not an inference about other states or countries. It would be like mentioning that she doesn't request metal detectors at other college campuses, even ones that have been the subject to school shootings. Shooting people is illegal too so maybe we should mention that it must be safer in Utah because of the death penalty. These things just are not relevant. She didn't feel safe so she cancelled. Law Enforcement and the university couldn't identify a credible threat. Those are about the only two things that are notable. Why she cancelled doesn't really matter just as why the threat wasn't deemed credible doesn't really matter. Delving into state gun laws, university security and the various other aspects is more weeds. --DHeyward (talk) 00:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

So we can just go back to reliable sources? Salt Lake Tribune: "But after learning that Utah State University was legally forbidden from restricting firearms at a Wednesday lecture over which she received a death threat, the nationally-known feminist writer and video game critic canceled her appearance." I mean these are the facts that we've lost sight of in this argument. --TS 00:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

And that's about all we need to mention about gun laws as that one aspect made her feel unsafe. Not the other stuff about tangential comparisons of laws, policies and procedures. she's a credible expert on how she feels, not a credible expert on security, gun laws or safety. --DHeyward (talk) 00:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

And more on point that doesn't address interpretation of the law: "But after learning that Utah State University would not install metal detectors to check for firearms at a Wednesday lecture over which she received a death threat, the nationally-known feminist writer and video game critic canceled her appearance. Law enforcement determined the threat was not credible." That's the facts as well without having to rely on an interpretation of Utah gun laws. --DHeyward (talk) 04:32, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I think Tony Sidaway's suggested edit looks best. Or a new paraphrase of the Salt Lake Tribune TS brings up. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 01:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

GG/E3

GG at E3. Destruction currently off line but rss version shows numerous posters insulting towards Sarkeesian around E3 at LA. --MASEM (t) 23:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Doom criticised by Sarkeesian in the Guardian. --DHeyward (talk) 00:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It's in The Independent, which is just as reliable a source. But it seems to have nothing to do with Gamergate. If we made this article about everything Anita Sarkeesian has ever called violent, it would fill up with reports about violent things. The article is, instead, about Gamergate. --TS 01:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

There are apparently posters in a similar style mocking various people. Rhoark (talk) 00:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm straining to see an evident connection with Gamergate at this point. --TS 01:08, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

You'd have to know it's Sarkeesian and FeministFrequency which is assuming a lot. That's not on the poster either. --DHeyward (talk) 04:24, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Quote: "The background of the posters features #GamerGate written repeatedly in light grey text." ForbiddenRocky (talk) 01:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

The posters... yeah. What ForbiddenRocky said.--Jorm (talk) 01:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Unless it's those third party trolls the kids are raving about, that's fairly conclusive a connection to this article. PeterTheFourth has made few or no other edits outside this topic. 01:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Even if it is those third party trolls the kids are raving about, its relevant to the article as to how just incorporating #gamgergate into your meme makes it 1000 times more horrible - the new metameme. But we need a better source telling us how it is relevant. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 01:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

polygin --MASEM (t) 03:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

USA Today coverage of E3. Bonnie Ross featured. I'm sure she's less influential than any number of GG victims. Tough choice to decide who we should have bio articles for role models and gaming influence. Maybe it's because she doesn't tell us how many rape and death threats she receives and that's the true measure of a women's worth in WP space. "Microsoft Vice President and Head of 343 Industries" pales in comparison. --DHeyward (talk) 05:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

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