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Someone may be impersonating me

User Michael thomas 89 has contacted me about being approached off wiki be someone claiming to be me. He said that the person had claimed to have checked their declined draft article Draft:New_Net_Technologies and directed him to my user page “I am a Wikipedian with high privileges, check my user page:http://en.wikipedia.org/User:Sarahj2107 ” . The person then offered to rewrite the article and get it approved.

Michael thomas 89 claims that they took the person up on their initial offer and the page was published. The person then demanded $300, said they had requested the page be deleted and it would only be reinstated when the money was paid. He didn’t think that was right so he then contacted me on my talk page and forwarded some more details to me via email.

New Net Technologies Ltd was created by blocked user user:Coralbatch on 22 May 2015 (the same day as the first email sent to Michael thomas 89), only edit by them and then deleted on 10 June by Guerillero under WP:CSD#G5.

I would really appreciate some help in dealing with this. Sarahj2107 (talk) 13:57, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Do you know if he was sent a copy of the article to be approved prior to its use? If so, I would like that emailed to me for further evaluation. It may be possible to tie this in with certain paid editor groups.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:15, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Also, two other sock accounts are in play and should be checkusered against the already blocked editor as well as the one who is conversing with you.

• (draft history) by Neilmacleod (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• (revision history) by ECooke1804 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

• Michael thomas 89 (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)
• (already blocked by Guerillero) Coralbatch (talk · tag · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log · CA · CheckUser(log) · investigate · cuwiki)

This may be related to an existing SPI case.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Does this constitute a criminal offense? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm wondering if this scam has been pulled before (possibly impersonating other admins as well) and just hadn't come to light because the "customers" hadn't followed it up or the articles they paid for did get created and have so far slipped under the radar. It's quite worrying. Voceditenore (talk) 14:54, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

@Berean Hunter: He was sent a link to User:Coralbatch/sandbox asking him to review the draft and let them know when he is ready for it to be published, along with payment details. I will email you what was sent to me. He is also saying that Neilmacleod is just a customer who created a page when they found there wasn't already one, and Emmacooke is someone from the companies PR department. Sarahj2107 (talk) 15:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

This has been pulled a few times before theres as OTRS ticket about one we dealt with earlier in the week that resulted in a CU block of an account. I wasnt privvy to full details on the reasons behind the block unfortunatley. The blocking admin may be able to endulge other CU's though. Amortias (T)(C) 16:40, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I can confirm I have handled at least two of these through OTRS. The modus operandi I am aware of involves creating an article in mainspace, then contacting a representative of the company and demanding money. If not paid the original author requests deletion via G7. I raised the issue at AN but it never came to anything unfortunately, because it would have required to go fishing with CU at the very least (or there simply wasn't any interest). §FreeRangeFrog 17:16, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

See this. §FreeRangeFrog 17:18, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I can confirm having seen this in relation to another user, though I can't currently find the email I sent them about it. It was very similar (I'll help with your article for a fee, I am this user), and received by a user who came onto IRC rather angered by it. I'll post again if I remember/find out who they were impersonating. Sam Walton (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I've remembered a little more about the case I saw and it was slightly different from this one. A user was contacted about an AfC draft they had started from someone claiming to be an administrator who could accept the article for them for a fee. The user they were impersonating hadn't edited in a while and was neither an admin nor an AfC reviewer. Sam Walton (talk) 17:30, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

That matches the case I dealt with. Amortias (T)(C) 17:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

I've seen what I suspect to have been similar, --see . I have heard rumors of many others. I'm not aware of any case where an actual administrator has been doing anything of the sort. (Arb com will of course as always be interested in any admin who does use admin powers to support any article they have written, paid or unpaid) I've alerted WP:LEGAL about this discussion. At the very least, the WMF ought to make public statement that a/nobody has the authority to promise that a WP article will be accepted or will be given a particular quality designation. and b/ that anyone offering to write WP articles without giving full disclosure of that fact on Misplaced Pages will be in violation of our Terms of Use, particularly with respect to paid contributions without disclosure. DGG ( talk ) 19:28, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

For those with OTRS access and interest in this, #2015040210025176, #2014092910015601, #2014082110017591 , #2014080810016151 and #2014080610021121 should be interesting reading. I know of at least one company in the UK possibly involved with these. §FreeRangeFrog 21:33, 12 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I agree wih DGG; this kind of thing needs to be escalated as it could be happening on a global scale. I would like to assume that nobody would fall for it, but they must have had a few bites if they keep trying. I don't believe these are "legitimate" paid editors, but are impersonating people because they're scammers out to get credit card numbers. Is there a way to put any kind of overall notice warning people of this? —Мандичка 😜 11:19, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

DGG was right to notify legal, and they do need to get involved. It's not only an organizational issue, it's also a personal issue which can have unpleasant consequences for the editors who are being impersonated. This impersonation may have affected other editors as well, but it just hasn't come to light. I frankly doubt it's a scam to get credit card information, though. Writing Misplaced Pages drafts on boring businesses, is not terribly efficient way of doing that. But for people desperate for a bit of cash, it's a fairly quick $300, if you get someone to take the bait. Sarahj2107, did your correspondent say what method of payment the impersonator had asked for? Have any of the other OTRS tickets specified the payment method? Voceditenore (talk) 17:45, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Voceditenore. Payment details have been sent up the ladder although I'm not sure if they are in an OTRS ticket or not.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• I dug out the IRC logs from the day the user came in regarding this and have some more details regarding the case I saw. The user had a draft that they had been working on for some time and were contacted by someone claiming to be a particular Misplaced Pages user. They claimed to be a Wikipedian with "high privileges" who was a "member of Article for Creation review department" - the person they were impersonating had only autopatrolled and reviewer rights and had not reviewed any AfCs. They were told that they "will do online research and rewrite the content in encyclopedic tone and get it approved" and "it will cost you $150 pay me when page approved and published." Sam Walton (talk) 19:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Warning notices?

• Maybe we could use a template for userpages. Something roughly along the lines of "This user is NOT a paid editor and does not contact or solicit anyone for paid work on Misplaced Pages. If someone has contacted you claiming to be me, please use this email link or post on my talk page so that we may clarify. Thank you."
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:44, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• User page notices can help on the personal level. But we need notices at the organizational level too. Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation/Help desk is the ideal location for scammers to find potential clients. About 75% of the help requests there concern rejected "advertorial" drafts about non-notable companies, their founders, their products, etc. One person actually wrote "I hired a gentleman from India on fiver to create this page and I fear that he has abandoned me... Please help." The draft was indeed created by an IP that traces to India. The IP's first edit produced a remarkably "finished product". It might help to have prominent warning notices on that page as well as on Misplaced Pages:Articles for creation, Misplaced Pages:Article wizard, and Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Articles for creation. Voceditenore (talk) 07:03, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong support
     — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:40, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Strong support - also think we need a general template message. It reminds me of the old days in the 90s when AOL had all these scams, and they had to put up messages reminding people that no AOL employee is going to contact them and ask to confirm billing information. I also think, even if these people were not all scammers, they're certainly not legitimate businesses. —Мандичка 😜 09:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• I agree with this concept. Mdennis (WMF) can you ask WMF Legal to craft a fraud warning about illicit content creation services that could be sent to the possible purchasers of those services? The notice should include an explanation about the proper and transparent ways to have content added to Misplaced Pages in compliance with our COI requirements. Also, the functionary email lists should be informed, and depending on the scope of this problem, it may also be appropriate to post a watchlist notice and centralnotice. --Pine 02:15, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Checkuser Results

Here are the results of a fresh checkuser:

• Coralbatch (talk · contribs) is  Unrelated to Neil and Michael. Please note that this account appears to be editing through a botnet so checkuser is worthless here. (CU shows that they are connected to Faulkerfod (talk · contribs), who started the page, as well as Cameronag (talk · contribs), JennaelkinsTA (talk · contribs), Jacelegan (talk · contribs).)
• Neilmacleod (talk · contribs) and Michael thomas 89 (talk · contribs) are  Possible but I think they are innocent people who are on the same network.
• ECooke1804 is too old to CU

This behavior truly concerns me --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 05:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

@Guerillero: Thanks. My guess is this might be just the tip of a WikiPR-like iceberg, and I think there's more than one group of people or companies involved. §FreeRangeFrog 22:31, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Neil and Michael blocked indef as spam/advertising accounts by JzG.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:25, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I received an email from Michael questioning his block. Since he did not receive a block notice, he had no recourse for filing an appeal so I have left a note on his talk page. Although he hasn't filed that request yet, I will state that blocking a whistleblower isn't necessarily in WP's best interests.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

He's not a whistleblower, he's a person frustrated in trying to pay for an article on his company. Guy (Help!) 14:57, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

That's true, JzG, but an insta-black for anyone who complains will hardly encourage others to come forward and might make it harder for WP get to the bottom of this or at least learn its true extent. If others in this situation are blocked, they need a clearly worded block notice and an explanation of their options for further communication concerning the problem. Voceditenore (talk) 15:21, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

But he was approached by what he thought was an admin so he thought that he was complying with WP in his actions. See this. He brought it forward after smelling a rat and did the right thing. He has cooperated by sending information via email for the investigation. Sarah and Handpolk have been helping guide him in the right direction and he has only posted material on his talk page to supply sources. It isn't as if he is trying to hide his conflict of interest. I'm not sure that it would hurt if he is allowed to work on the draft.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll chip in that Michael should probably not be blocked, or at the least should have a clear way forward handed to him on a way to get unblocked. It seems likely he felt he was following the rules and got conned by someone. I would like to get a clear statement that he now has read and understood WP:COI (which is not the easiest thing to understand I'll grant you). Hobit (talk) 22:52, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Unblock Michael thomas 89 per Hobit. He seems like he was primarily ignorant about how articles are created and fell for a scam and now is being blackmailed. Definitely doesn't warrant an indefinite block. Liz 01:28, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I have now unblocked User:Michael thomas 89 — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Extortion and identity theft

Is anyone following up the extortion (holding articles to "ransom") and identity theft issues, to report them to relevant law enforcement authorities? These are real world crimes, not merely Wiki-offences. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikimedia's legal department has already been alerted by DGG. If anyone has the ability to do that with any authority, they do, but don't expect them to be public about it until something is set. —Jeremy v^_^v 09:06, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I have had this happen to me (see Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Archive268#Fake e-mails). Three editors have contacted me replying to a supposed e-mail that I had sent offering to fix up their pages. I asked one user for the text of the e-mail and it also used the phrase "high privileges", so it is likely the same faker.—Anne Delong (talk) 22:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

User:DGG alerted WMF Legal on the 12th, and as of yesterday (five days later), he hadn't even received an acknowledgement. I'm going to ask Maggie Dennis (aka Moonriddengirl) for some input here. Maggie is the Senior Community Advocate at the Wikimedia Foundation. Perhaps she can fill us in as to whether the WMF even considers this within their purview, and if so what advice and help they can give. My own impression is that impersonation of editors for the purposes of committing fraud and extortion is a legal issue. But perhaps WMF doesn't consider it their legal issue. Perhaps they don't care what's going on or have decided to give a very low priority, despite the clear violations of the Terms of Use and damage to Misplaced Pages's (and thereby the WMF's) reputation Either way, it would be good to know. Voceditenore (talk) 10:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I've checked the inbox and logs and don't see User:DGG's email anywhere in WMF Legal. :( It may have gotten lost, unless, DGG, you sent it to an individual lawyer or another email than legalwikimedia.org. If you sent it to WMF Legal, can you resend and perhaps cc me at mdenniswikimedia.org? I'll give you an instant confirmation (as soon as I see it) and see what I can run down. If you sent it to an individual attorney or another address, if you let me know who, I'll see what I can do to faciliate! (In terms of it being "their" legal issue, User:Voceditenore, I'm honestly not sure - the ethical requirements for WMF attorney representation is complex. They are not permitted to represent users - which is why they can't demand takedown of misused Wikimedia content, for instance - but when the line between user-issue-they-can't-touch and WMF-issue-they-can is crossed would be their determination. It's beyond me. :) In any event, they acknowledge inquiries.) --Maggie Dennis (WMF) (talk) 14:42, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I sent it to an individual, and meant to resend properly to legal. I'll do that. DGG ( talk ) 14:52, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I confess, I am behind impersonation of different Misplaced Pages administrators. I abused total 6 accounts. I wasn't aware that it is illegal. I ensure you it won't happen again. Wikiconfession (talk) 14:43, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I have blocked the above person for likely being a troll. If they are telling the truth then they are blocked for impersonation and abuse of 6 accounts. Chillum 14:45, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Another case at WP:Help Desk#Promotion- someone called "Allison Lardo" is claiming to be Misplaced Pages employee, and asking for money for a lottery. The IP has been told to send details to WMF legal about it. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:14, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Unexplained / POV removal of content by User:Packerfansam

User:Packerfansam has been around for a long time and has accumulated tens of thousands of edits, many focusing on Wisconsin legislative and / or political articles. He has created more than 3300 articles – many of them very short biographies, but a lot by even that measure. With this depth of experience (and a clean block log) it’s perplexing that in the past few days following a several-month editing hiatus, he has begun to remove substantial chunks of content from a variety of articles, accompanied by vague (and sometimes misleading) edit summaries. In many of the cases, the excised material relates to Jews, Muslims, African-Americans or LGBT matters, raising NPOV concerns.

Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims

New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism

Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject

Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews

Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state

I raised concerns about this on the editor’s Talk page, first in brief narrative fashion, followed by templates when the edits continued without response. See link. Since then the unexplained and apparently POV edits have continued:

John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"

Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.

I am bringing the matter here because the edits are, to my eyes, troubling, and need attention; and the editor is unresponsive. Furthermore the editor has a long and apparently productive history here, and these excisions are not so plainly “vandalism” or disruption that they’re suitable for AIV if they continue.

Thanks in advance for any comments and / or assistance. JohnInDC (talk) 10:54, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

The edit summary shortened, simplified and removed possible redundant content is not reflective of the edits which are often completely removing all mention of specific groups of people. How can content be redundant if you remove all of it that concerns gays or Jews? These edits definitely are imposing a strange POV where some people are just erased from the public record. Liz 12:04, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

He's trying to purge Misplaced Pages of any evidence for the existence of people who aren't Christian and Republican. In May, he even removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles (and was reverted). I would support an indefinite block for deceptive editing. KateWishing (talk) 13:13, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support indef block - even though he has a long history and a clean block record, this editor appears to either have become very extreme of late or decided he's WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia anymore. These edits account for vandalism in my opinion and given the particular topics of his dislike, I don't see the editor cheerfully avoiding them in the future. —Мандичка 😜 13:33, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

In addition, he's not responsive at his talk page, the last time he responded there seems to be to thank someone over 5 years ago. As for the recent edits, the edit summaries clearly misrepresent the edits, and his removal of content has become clearly disruptive. Despite his constructive edits, these edits suggest WP:NOTHERE. Doug Weller (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

JohnInDC was concerned about the wrong citations Packerfansam had added to several Wisconsin Legislators article very recently. I had been looking at Packerfansam's Wisconsin Legislators articles to see if a category, etc., needs to be added. I did add the correct Wisconsin Blue Books citation to the articles that JohnInDC was concerned about. And I was concerned about about Packerfansam removing the political affliations of several Wisconsin Legislators articles with no reasons given. I hope this helps-Thank youRFD (talk) 15:31, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

Is it possible this account is compromised ? Considering his long history of productive edits, then this sudden shift ... maybe it's something to look at ? KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 15:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

I had the same thought but in the main, the edit interests seem to have been pretty stable. I guess in the final analysis it doesn't matter - the edits are unacceptable no matter who's responsible. (It is mystifying though.) JohnInDC (talk) 15:56, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Note that he stopped editing in August of last year, and when he returned 24 April, this is when the problems began. The possibility of a compromised account is real, as is a CIR issue. He has never been one to communicate, I didn't see any talk in his contribs. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:36, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Dennis Brown, I thought this was possible but even as of today, he continues to create articles on Wisconsin politicians as he has been doing for years. Please look at his contributions. —Мандичка 😜 02:57, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

A CIR issue may still be at hand. Medication, life events, all kinds of things can change a person's competency, either temporarily or permanently. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 15:33, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

First things, despite the assumption, I'm a 'she'. Second, to answer people's suspicions, I have numerous health issues that have escalated in recent times. I don't feel it's necessary to go into specifics, but is it possible they can effect my judgment? Sure. That, along with other issues in my life can explain gaps between logging in, such as the last couple days. Now, I think along with some of the other issues being discussed, my not logging in for two days is being exaggerated. It was not because of these accusations, I didn't received a notice of this until I just logged in for this session. Sometimes health and other life issues take my attention. The extended length between updates last year involves family issues that, again, I don't think it's necessary to be specific about. If, during these times, I was hacked and I haven't realized it, my apologies. I have recently changed my password, maybe that would help to stop other possible issues. Now, the concerns about the links to the Wisconsin Blue Book tend to can be tough I understand. Google Books reverts you back to the original page you were on prior. If you were looking as something on page 1 and later decide to post a link for page 2, it decides to take you back to 1. Some of the re-categorizing is simply because it doesn't seem like the article necessarily belongs there, such as with Category:Mayors of places in Wisconsin, where there were some subjects whose job titles didn't match the criteria. Thanks to those who have offered their support. Packerfansam (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your response here, and good luck with your health issues. Can you please offer an explanation, for example, for this edit to Precursor (religion), where you removed sourced materiel regarding non-Christian religions. This type of POV edit, with no (in this case) or misleading (in other cases) is the heart of my concern, and perhaps others. Was it judgement impairment due to illness, as you suggested some of the unaddressed issues might be? Or, are you asserting that your account was WP:COMPROMISED? The key is to understand (a) which other edits your account may have made, like that, with no or misleading edit summaries, that still need to be fixed, and (b) can you offer an assurance that such editing will not happen again. An acknowledgement of why it really happened will help other editors have confidence in your continued participation. Otherwise, why should you not be topic-banned from editing articles about religion and politics? JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

@Packerfansam: could you please address some of the issues such as Joe's question above?
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 21:09, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, let me first address that if anything I did seemed to be misleading or deceptive in articles, I deeply apologize. It seems to me, among other things, if you have a certain location (city, state, etc.) where the residents are overwhelmingly affiliated with a certain group or denomination, it bloats the article and makes it excessively long if you go into detail about other groups that make up a microscopic (sometimes like 0.15% or less) portion of the population and the culture. Thanks Packerfansam (talk) 21:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

As for being compromised, I can't answer definitely without carefully combing through and trying to remember things, but it's happened with me on other sites in the past so it's possible. Packerfansam (talk) 21:25, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm unpersuaded. That reasoning would maybe explain removing mention of Jews in Kansas (though it's 2%, not .015%) but it certainly is hard to square with editing out Jews in New York City or mention of the "largest gay and bisexual community in the United States" that is found there. That's just one counterexample - there are several others cited above, and below as well. JohnInDC (talk) 22:00, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

First, let me point out that it was 0.15 not .015, there is a difference. In regards to NYC, there was a section about the city's many, many landmarks and none of the others were mentioned by name, except for I think it was Greenwich, as if it were special or more noteworthy than the others. Without getting into what's right or wrong even, it seems strange to me that one should be especially singled out and recognized apart from the others. Packerfansam (talk) 03:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Pardon, but that is an inadequate if not disingenuous explanation for this edit to NYC, where, as you did with many other edits, you removed all mention of non-Christian religions:

Christianity is the most prevalently practiced religion in New York, followed by Judaism, with approximately 1.1 million Jews (יהודי) in New York City, over half living in Brooklyn. Islam ranks third in New York City, with official estimates ranging between 600,000 and 1,000,000 observers and including 10% of the city's public schoolchildren, followed by Hinduism, Buddhism, and a variety of other religions, as well as atheism or self-identifying with no organized religious affiliation.

References

1. "World Jewish Population". SimpleToRemember.com – Judaism Online. Retrieved September 2, 2012.
2. "Jewish Community Study of New York: 2011 Comprehensive Report" (PDF). UJA-Federation of New York. Retrieved August 13, 2014.
3. Cite error: The named reference BrooklynJewish was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
4. Marc Santora and Sharon Otterman (March 4, 2015). "New York City Adds 2 Muslim Holy Days to Public School Calendar". The New York Times. Retrieved March 4, 2015.

Try again. JoeSperrazza (talk) 05:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Please let's don't go through these one by one, arguing whether ".15" or ".015" makes the edits any more defensible. A full-throated denial would be a good start - if Packerfansam doesn't want to go through her contribution history to identify the odious edits that were made by a hacker using her name, the examples here are sufficient to tell her in an instant whether she was responsible for them. Absent a straight-up denial, which we don't have, an acknowledgment or recognition that maybe, perhaps, it's problematic to remove references to, e.g., Jews in New York, Muslims in Michigan, gay marriage from the Republican Party, the Jewish ancestry and civil rights advocacy of a German lawyer, the sexual orientation of a the first gay Republican legislator in Wisconsin, or - by the IP a day ago - the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach. And that's before we even start on the misleading edit summaries that accompanied these changes (for which she offers a conditional apology). So far I see nothing to assure us that Packerfansam recognizes these edits as problematic or that she will not make similar edits going forward. JohnInDC (talk) 11:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Continued problematic editing that is continuing to occur noted here, together with Good hand/bad hand editing noted here are both of considerable concern. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:08, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Okay, this is what certain people seem to want to see - yes, I made updates that are causing this debacle. You can argue about my judgment and whether it's been altered. To me, in my judgment in what I recall, it seemed proper. I don't necessarily know if it was to the excess others believe it was, so I can't rule out a hack. I don't have plans to go out and make particularly controversial edits, my plan for the imminent future is to continue with legislator bios, creating and updating articles as would be appropriate with that. Packerfansam (talk), 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Response & comment - This is at best a grudging acknowledgment by Packerfansam of the problems she has caused with her POV edits and misleading summaries, not to mention (indeed not mentioned) the edit warring and sock puppetry. It isn't just "some people" who want to see an explanation and assurances, but nearly every single person who has participated in this discussion. I do not believe that Packerfansam appreciates that her edits contravened Misplaced Pages policy, or that that were in any way improper or disruptive. That being said I also believe that the foregoing is about all we are going to get out of her on the subject, and, as halfhearted as it is, it is something. She is, at least, speaking about it. Going forward, which I assume will take place without a block, I personally would like to see something a little more explicit about the ground rules, whether it comes from her, or from us, by rough agreement. Maybe something like, "no edits to remove content from articles re religion, sexual preference or other demographic characteristics" - I don't know. What I do know is that "no immediate plans" to make controversial edits is not reassuring, and isn't very helpful as a standard against which to measure future behavior. Thoughts and / or comments welcome. Thanks. JohnInDC (talk) 01:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Look, I have no idea what can offend some people. To me, for instance, creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like that doesn't seem like it should bother anybody. But I can't be sure what somebody could have a problem with. Can I give 100% certainty that nobody will ever have a problem with something I write ever again? No. Do I want to go through this stress again when I already have enough in my life? Also no. Packerfansam (talk) 03:15, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

If what you mean by that is that you intend henceforth to stick to creating stub articles for Wisconsin politicians, then you are much less likely to run into POV and bias problems. I would recommend including the political affiliation of the subjects, when it is in the sources, and ensuring that the sources you cite actually link to the subject of the article you are creating. I, we, are not asking you to promise you'll never offend anyone again; rather we are asking that you stop removing material from articles because something about it offends you. Thanks. Now let's see what some of the other editors have to say about this. JohnInDC (talk) 03:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I found your response to be very disappointing. I had thought you "got it", and were willing to move forward, but just didn't want to explicitly own up to your mistakes. But your answers, above, make me wonder. Do you really think the issue was a vague, hard to understand "some people" being "offend"ed? Do you really think the issue was anything to do with was "creating an article about a notable politician, listing them in the proper areas for where they were born, where they lived and went to school and things like "? If so, you have a serious problem of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT and or a problem with competence. Examples were laid out for you very clearly here and on your talk page. You are ignoring those details here, and have repeatedly blanked them on your talk page. As a reminder, the problems include this list and many more:

Michigan – removed a religious affiliation table, and all narrative references to Jews, Muslims

• New York City – removed textual references to the Stonewall Inn, Jews, LBGT demographics, Hinduism, Buddhism, atheism
• Gabriel Riesser – removed description of subject’s Jewish ancestry and its consequences for the subject
• Hamburg – removed references to Muslims, Jews
• Kansas – removed references to Mormons, Jews, Muslims and other less-represented religions in the state
• John Johnson – dab page – removed link to John Johnson (Latter Day Saints), "early Latter Day Saint and owner of the John Johnson Farm, a historical site in Mormonism"
• Republican Party (United States) – removed entire section on LGBT issues as well as other references to gays; also a description of Jews as voting mostly Democratic.
• removed references to the Democratic Party from over 100 articles
• remove mention of Jews in New York City
• removal of the sexual orientation of the Swedish Womens' Soccer team coach
• Special:Contributions/24.178.45.221 most troublesome, was your Good hand/bad hand editing, with your logged out editing all, with 2 exceptions, being reverted by editors as being disruptive

Are you really sure you want to continue in this way? JoeSperrazza (talk) 04:16, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Time to close We do not know the full circumstances under which Packerfansam is editing. We know he has health issues and we should leave it at that. He is constructively engaging editors about issues they have, and although we may strongly disagree with some of the edits he has made, he clearly wants to edit constructively and with good faith. Could there be future problems? Sure, but we can deal with them should they arise. Let's assume good faith and encourage Packerfansam to continue editing. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:32, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Again, it's she, either way, much appreciated. Packerfansam (talk) 05:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for getting your gender wrong! --I am One of Many (talk) 05:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It is not too much to ask that Packerfansam state precisely what she intends to do, or not do, going forward; or that we collectively outline our expectations of her. Her POV and misleading edits were blockable and while she is now at least discussing them, she has given no indication at all that she appreciates what the problem is (apologizing if she has been misleading; confessing to having no idea which of her edits "might offend some people", as though unpredictably thin-skinned readers were the heart of it) and I would like just a bit of clarity about what is expected of her going forward so that if, three or four weeks - or 5 months - hence, we see a new run of POV purges, someone can point back and say, "that is not what you said you would do". If she does not understand the problem, then she can't exercise meaningful judgment in avoiding it in the future. Other than that - yes, I agree, we are done here. JohnInDC (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I think it is too much at this point. Packerfansam has edited here, without issues, for years. If there are issues in the next few weeks or months, we can deal with them. If the edits in question were due to misunderstandings and/or lapses in judgement, then moving on means she moves on to continued constructive editing. If we continue to push this thing, maybe she says "The hell with this, I don't need this in my life.", she moves on, and we lose another editor. You have accomplished what is important: She is aware of the issues, acknowledged them, stated that she wants to contribute constructively. Now, let's assume good faith and deal with issues in the future if they occur. --I am One of Many (talk) 17:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Can't seem to quit - Promises notwithstanding, Packerfansam just this morning edited Omaha, Nebraska to remove mention of synagogues in the city. Diff here. She does not seem able to help herself. She has been systematically removing references in articles to non-Christians and non-traditional sexual orientations and despite the extensive discussion here - as well as her claim that she doesn't want any more headaches - she continues to do so. She does not understand the problem, and she is manifestly unable to stop. JohnInDC (talk) 14:50, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. It's getting ridiculous at this point. I am One of Many, I applaud your efforts to caution restraint, but I daresay that assuming good faith at this point at this point would be counterproductive and deleterious to the project. And to be honest, a bit silly. Editors are beginning to become exasperated cleaning up her POV edits, which she apparently has no intention of stopping. As of now, the editor has shown no actual remorse, has been generally avoidant and disingenuous, ignored several attempts to communicate, and is unrelenting in making their unabashedly POV edits (often coupled with misleading edit summaries). Whether they've contributed any significant content in the past is immaterial, and a point rendered moot considering the fact that this behaviour is continuing. For some time, the editor in question has been editing with an obvious political / religious agenda, and is completely unapologetic in doing so. This discussion has gone on for almost a week now, and extending them any good will is almost abetting the disruption, and appears to be only forestalling an inevitable indefinite block. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Support Indefinite block, per above, and no efforts to alter their behaviour or even acknowledge that this is inappropriate. An unblock, of course, should be conditional on a promise to reach consensus regarding removal or wholesale alteration of material related to religion, race, and sexual orientation. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 20:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

No sign of abating - Early this morning (June 23) she removed a reference to a "figure study of a nude young woman" painted by artist Clarence Holbrook Carter as "POV". A couple of editors recently weighed in on her Talk page, urging her to steer clear of religion, so it bears repeating that she has never confined her excisions to those matters, but has swept in sexuality as well - e.g., removing references to various subjects' sexual orientation, and LGBT political issues; edit warring at University of Wisconsin–Madison to remove "Playboy" as as reference on the ground that it is not reliable or a place for respected or credible journalism. Repeated admonitions don't seem to have had much effect, but if suasion is the path to be followed, it should at least be comprehensive. JohnInDC (talk) 11:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Time to close Issues are now about content and not behavior. Behavior has been mis-characterized in above "Can't seem to quit" where the editor removed an uncited sentence as much about Christians as it was about Jews. Attempts to paint this as anti-semitic fall short. Subsequently, you removed cited material that she added in a blind revert. Uncool. The material under "No sign of abating" is unsourced and indeed has a POV because of striking which is opinion..."Carter's striking figure study...". Being unsourced she can remove it...personally, I would have just removed the adjective but her actions aren't egregious here. The other diffs are old rehash from May. It is beginning to look as if editors have an ax to grind. Defer to dispute resolution for content matters.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 15:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - I disagree that it has become a kind of rolling content dispute, and I don't care for the suggestion that I've got an axe to grind. Packerfansam's editing focus and pattern (religion / sexuality / politics) beyond the creation of short articles in my view remains unchanged. And too I confess to being a bit mystified by the deference that is being shown to her given that she has failed to address any but one or two of her earlier, indefensible edits (and those, only in the most general of terms). But I do agree that this has become a huge time sink, and my own convictions notwithstanding, the issue seems to be finding no purchase here. I don't like seeing my credibility as an editor called into question, so I will let this go if that's the decision. JohnInDC (talk) 16:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to indef block Packerfansam for POV editing, misleading edit summaries and refusal to engage

Given the speed at which matters move up and out of ANI, I’m a bit worried that, a few editors having offered their views, the matter will languish without resolution. Several commenters have suggested an indef block, so I now formally propose it.

• Support, as proposer and per above - repeated removal of content reflecting political / religious bias, misleading edit summaries, refusal to engage. JohnInDC (talk) 18:01, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose – given that this is apparently a long-term editor who did lots of good work before, but has maybe gone "off" lately, an indef block against a previously "clean" block record seems like overkill. I could support a relatively long block (e.g. months) here for Packerfansam, but even that seems like it might be overkill. It does seem clear that a block of some duration is probably in order here... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:22, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose This should surely be more of a cause for concern than an opportunity for a very punative block. I suggest further research is required- surely we also have a some responsibility to WP:ENGAGE...? _Fortuna 18:30, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - He has ignored my attempts at engagement (other than to blank the template warnings) and continues to make the same kinds of edits. If another editor can get his attention, that'd be great. JohnInDC (talk) 18:39, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Modify — A sanction of some type, not indef, and allowing for discussion at the user's talk page or here. But the nature of these edits is such that we need to put some immediate protections in place while we try to engage. StevenJ81 (talk) 18:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

• Reluctant support - given this editor's long history of sound edits, I'm distressed to say that we have to do this: but something has gone wrong since early May or so, and we can no long rely on an edit by this account to be a sound one, the way we used to. If they refuse to communicate, a block of at least one month minimum seems called for. --Orange Mike | Talk 20:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support shorter block, given the editor's clean block log until now; it will get their attention as well as an indef, which is always an option if needed. On a block log, an indef (which I know isn't infinite) looks worse than a block of fixed duration, and this editor may be salvageable. Miniapolis 22:37, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Sorry, but I've never seen what function an "attention-getting block" really serves. Either the account is compromised and an indef block is appropriate, or the editor is really an inveterate POV warrior who should not be editing as long as they think that such is appropriate. In the latter case an indef block is also appropriate--a block which can be lifted as soon as...well, fill in the blank, but it starts with "Packerfansam". Drmies (talk) 02:29, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose indef, we can use escalating blocks in an attempt to recover this editor. Something like a week for the first block would be sufficient. Chillum 22:41, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  So your premise is that blocking an editor is a good way to recover one? As opposed to alienating them? Strange. Eric Corbett 22:55, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

  Please don't try to explain my premise, you never seem to get it right. We have to weigh damage to the project against keeping the editor. Chillum 03:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  If he's taken a sudden turn toward the Dark Side, it's probably too late already. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  It is not hard to reblock if shorter blocks do not work. Chillum 03:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

  Yes, especially as it appears he's never been blocked before. If he's uncommunicative, a reasonable short block might get his attention. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 04:10, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't usually agree with Mr. Corbett, but I do here. As I said just above, I don't believe in attention-getting blocks, and the whole concept of escalating blocks--well, I spent a few years in a place where they believed in something like that, and it never increased my desire to live by their rules. Blocks piss people off, and they should be applied judiciously and appropriately. "Getting attention" is like keying someone's car because they parked it in the wrong place. If it's in the way, you tow it. Drmies (talk) 02:32, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• The goal is not to get their attention, the goal is to prevent disruptive editing. I suggested escalating block instead of an indef because it give the user a chance to recover while preventing disruption. Remember that communication has already been tried. Chillum 22:50, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose indef Something has gone wrong since May and a user with a clean block log is up for an indef. Please do not hand out indefs so lightly. (Littleolive oil (talk) 23:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC))
  • Comment - Just - to be clear, I don't care particularly whether the editor is indef blocked or not. Anything that works is fine with me. As for the scope of the problem, I can add that, at least among the articles he has recently created, he reports the party affiliation of the subject when it is Republican or Independent, but omits it if it's Democratic. It's not a big deal in the grand scheme - these are legislators who served 120+ years ago - but these deliberate omissions are irresponsible at best, and make wholly unnecessary work for others. JohnInDC (talk) 00:07, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support indef - I see no reason to suspect account compromise. Editor is STILL creating new articles for Wisconsin politicians. If any reason should be considered, editor can appeal the block and attempt to provide explanation. Regardless of reason, editor is no longer here to contribute. —Мандичка 😜 01:17, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. Although Packerfansam doesn't respond directly to warnings, his/her behavior has been altered by them. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:28, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I am One of Many What do you mean by his behavior has been altered? He obviously saw the many warnings as he deleted them from his talk page. Then just today he removed the table about religion demographics from a town in Norway that was 1.5 percent Muslim. His edit summary for the removal of the demographics table was "bars were out of place." I really don't know what to make of that. —Мандичка 😜 06:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

To be fair, he didn't make that edit today, but on June 14. He also removed the whole box on religion, so we can't say he was targeting Muslims. Finally, I don't know how to interpret his edit summary, but it could just mean he didn't like how tables lined up, so he removed them. I'll also add that I see no evidence of edit waring when he is reverted. --I am One of Many (talk) 07:16, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That edit summary shows it was made on June 15, at least by Misplaced Pages time, and more importantly was after he had been warned. If he felt the table wasn't properly aligned, he could have moved it somewhere else. It's below another demographic table that was not deleted. Based on his other pattern of removal of information, this is highly suspicious. Additionally he was warned over and over and continued his behavior, as you can see by the activity on his page along with his contributions. If his behavior has truly been altered by being told to stop, this would never have come to ANI. Edit warring is only one form of disruptive editing. —Мандичка 😜 08:00, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose for now. He doesn't refuse to engage, he just hasn't engaged on this topic this time around. He uses talk pages:
• 1,2,3,4,5,6,7, 8 but typically blanks messages he receives and then goes to their talk page to reply. He responded here but that editor didn't reply back(!). He traded replies where he blanked and then replied here with another editor...that editor replied back to Packer's talk page so the thread gets lost in the shuffle. Packer is removing posts after he has read them as part of his norm. I would suggest that he isn't talk page savvy but that doesn't mean that he doesn't communicate at all. I do think that he should be more conversant on the POV topics. This change on his userpage may reflect a change in POV. He hasn't engaged JohnInDC; that shouldn't be taken that he doesn't engage with everyone. Calls for indef above seem extreme to me. The first warning might be construed as a nuisance as he may think his summary isn't off the mark and suggesting he has to play Mother may I and always use talk pages...well, I'd ignore that too. Being templated thereafter doesn't help but kind of has the ring of Don't template the regulars. Apart from John, the only other editor that has attempted to engage him on this is Ed. None of the supporters above bothered to try. This can be characterized as isolated between two editors. A more cordial approach may work.
   — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Comment - As I noted above, I don't care what's done as long as the unacceptable editing stops. (I am skeptical that his 36 hour editing pause is significant.) I would note further that his disinclination to explain or defend questionable edits is not limited to the immediate non-conversation with me - three times previously, on three separate occasions (beginning here), other editors asked him about and warned him against systematically removing party affiliations from Wisconsin legislator articles. As far as I can tell he did not respond to any of these messages. He did ultimately stop removing the material, but then switched over to selectively omitting the information from articles he was continuing to create. I get that this is a longstanding editor with a lot of good work to his credit, but - you know, so am I, and in all honesty if I started removing content reflecting a clear political bias, and camouflaged it with misleading edit summaries, and refused to discuss it - well, I'd expect to be blocked, at least until I evinced some willingness to acknowledge and discuss the problem. JohnInDC (talk) 14:35, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
    • You've got that a bit wrong. What you link to above was on his talk page but he responded on the other editor's talk page and the last sentence leads me to think that he may have thought that removal of party affiliation may have been trying to correct where he thought that he had "been overdoing it" when he had wrote those in before.
       — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
      • You are right. I missed that. Thanks. That being said, it is a "response" only in the most literal sense. He ignored the first Talk page message on May 12 (continuing to remove party affiliations), responded to a second (rather stern) May 13-14 Talk page message as you've noted, and then started right back up at it on another 20 or so articles (blanking Democrats only!) and didn't stop until a third Talk page message on May 15. I do not dispute that my messages to him were not the best for eliciting a response from him (I wish I'd done that better in retrospect) but: We've been talking here at ANI for a day and a half, and another editor has left a thoughtful narrative message on his page inviting a response, and so far we have nothing. The only thing that gives me pause is that he hasn't edited for 36 hours, so conceivably he hasn't seen Ed's message or the ANI notification. But I don't find his past level of engagement at all encouraging. JohnInDC (talk) 15:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
        • The response on Capitalismojo's page here (after Capitalismojo told him to stop being disruptive) was after he removed the Democratic Party from four politicians (, , , ) and oddly just removed the wikilink to the party from another one , in under 10 minutes. And he responds innocently "what did I do that was so disruptive?" Capitalismojo probably did not follow up out of exasperation. —Мандичка 😜 15:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
          • Do you realize that he was the one who wrote those articles as well as wrote the particular sentences of affiliation in the first place? Odd that he is called disruptive to edit on this one when no other editor had touched it. I believe that he saw himself as trying to correct perceived mistakes. He removed whole sentences about party affiliation when they stood alone to that fact but as you note with the delinking, he wasn't trying to obscure facts. Note that he didn't remove the categories of political affiliation? Being told that you are disruptive on an article that only you have edited is just a bit bizarre so yeah, I think his question was in good faith. He wasn't really edit warring or anything like that. He reverted once in this history but he was trying to communicate also. He was misunderstood in this thread ("overdoing" wasn't in reference to the reverts he was doing that day but the inclusions in the past). The hard clamp down and admonishment in that light looks bizarre and I imagine frustrating. We should wait and put the pitchforks and torches up for the time being. He really isn't being that disruptive.
             — Berean Hunter (talk) 16:54, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
            • Oh, but he is being that disruptive. Removing political affiliations is, as I said above, small change. Beyond that little stuff he has been routinely, almost systematically, removing information from articles relating to Jews, Muslims, Mormons, gays & lesbians and other groups. I didn't provide an exhaustive list at the outset because I figured my examples were sufficiently representative, and distressing, that more would be perceived as piling on. But if there are questions about the impropriety of his edits, here are a few more (still not exhaustive - there are more still) examples from just the past six days:

Todd Novak - removed reference to the subject's sexual orientation (gay) and associated categories. No edit summary.

Madison, Wisconsin - removed text re Mormons, Buddhists, Hindus and others with the edit summary of "simplified".

Argus (dab) - removed all dab links to Greek Mythology. No edit summary. I can't see anything particularly biased about this but it is plainly disruptive.

Precursor (religion) - removing non-Christian examples; no edit summary.

What assurance - indeed even what indication do we have that he plans to discontinue these inappropriate edits, beyond the fact that he hasn't changed a page in a day and a half? Maybe the answer is, for now, leave him be and keep an eye on him and see if he continues his POV editing when he picks up the cursor again; fine. But I can't swallow describing these things as "not disruptive". JohnInDC (talk) 17:25, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't see why it matters that he created those original articles, there is no WP:OWNERSHIP. I don't see why he would decide to strip them out now unless it's related to his edit that he only works on Republican articles now or he's losing his marbles. I'm rather surpised that anyone would think removing entire sections related to Jews and gays from articles is not really that disruptive, but I suppose it explains why you're defending him. —Мандичка 😜 17:26, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

In my oppose above I stated "I do think that he should be more conversant on the POV topics." I too, would like to hear an explanation about those edits.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:21, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose per Berean Hunter and Drmies. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 02:35, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment-I agree with Dennis Brown that medication or some health issues may be involved with Packerfansam. Packerfansam mentioned about some health issues on the talk page. I agree with JohnInDC about keeping an eye on Packerfansam and see what happens. There is a possibility that Packerfansam may ceased editing again for a long time. Thank you-RFD (talk) 11:48, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Strong SupportNeutral I am concerned that this editor's contribution history needs to be carefully reviewed for POV edits and unexplained removals with corrections made - I've made some over the past couple of days. Regarding the former, just a brief review of history shows many stub articles of Wisconsin politicians were created by this editor. For members of the Republican party, their party affiliation was included by the editor in the original article and remains to this day. For members of the Democratic party, no party affiliation was included by this editor at any time. Other editor(s) added the affiliation after this odd anti-Democrat etc. POV editing was noted. Regarding removal of content and tags, in addition to the misleading edit summaries noted earlier, most such edits have no edit summary at all. Both of these sets issues I mention come down to fundamental lack of trust regarding this editors contributions. I've looked at several pages of his contributions and found that these issues are consistent. How far back one must go to review and correct these clearly intentional dishonest edits? An indefinite block while such a review and correction takes place, such as what was done with Colonel Henry, is necessary to prevent further damage to the encyclopedia. Once corrected, and after the editor responds constructively in an unblock request, then the editor can hopefully begin editing in accordance with WP's policies. JoeSperrazza (talk) 13:15, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I am switching my !vote to Neutral based on the interactions here User_talk:JoeSperrazza#Many_thanks- and here . I believe the editor "gets it", and we're not going to get a point-by-point "mea culpa" - which we shouldn't need (but I admit a little more of an affirmative "I understand what the concerns are and will do better" would have been the best response. Nor do I think we're going to get help fixing old problems (everything from their IP is fixed, and going back a month on their contributions I don't see any serious issues that have not been fixed that are left - but there was plenty of fixing required". Those who work in Wisconsin articles should keep an eye on the editor - I'll periodically take a look, too. Future problems should lead to a very swift topic ban from "religion, sexuality and politics, in any namespace, broadly construed". Finally, perhaps the editor would like some coaching or mentoring if in doubt in the future, or just to informally ask some questions. If so, I volunteer to help. Best regards to all, JoeSperrazza (talk) 21:07, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

He hasn't edited in two days and no current disruption is occurring so you have time to review his contribs and make corrections if necessary. He has a clean block log, many articles to his credit and I believe he should be allowed to reply before any decisions are made. If he refuses to engage and starts editing in the same way then blocking may be called for.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 14:44, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps he should not have a clean block log. This is very obvious NPOV editing, done in a way to hide his changes. Lacking a response soon, how can no action be a correct response? JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:02, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll say it this way, if and when he begins to edit again he will need to address this issue within an hour or two - giving him plenty of time to respond after seeing the messages on his talk page and reading through this thread. If he makes more POV edits without responding or fails to respond entirely, my "oppose for now" above will likely be converted to "support indef blocking" and if consensus supports the action, I'll do the block myself. By the way, I attempted to email him but he does not have a specified email address.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 19:43, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

He responded above about 30 minutes ago. --I am One of Many (talk) 20:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Cheers. I edit-conflicted and was going to remove my comment when I realized that. :) I was reading my watchlist from bottom up. I haven't read the reply yet.
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 20:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment. As noted here User_talk:Packerfansam#Incorrect_citation_.2F_reference_in_several_articles , the editor is continuing with problematic creation of and edits to articles, yet has dissembled in response to questions about their edits and not, as of yet, either paused in their edits nor given any effort to identifying or correcting their problem edits to date. A block is designed to protect the integrity of the encyclopedia. One is needed. JoeSperrazza (talk) 11:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose - I don't see any disruption here. The only issue is a content discussion that is ongoing, not disruptive in any way. Mentioning that the population of NYC is 1.5% Jewish is negligible, for example. --92slim (talk) 18:05, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - It's more like 15% and, as the largest concentration of Jews outside of Israel, not "negligible" under any sensible meaning of the word. JohnInDC (talk) 18:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. I was starting to wonder if I'd been too harsh in recommending an indefinite block until she posted the excuses above, which are just another example of deceptive editing. Worst of all, 30 minutes after "apologizing" for her deceptive behavior, she logged out to continue it. KateWishing (talk) 18:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Summing up thus far: By way of response from Packerfansam, we have:

• Some of those edits might have been made by someone with access to my account, or not – I don’t know. (“I can't answer definitely without carefully combing through and trying to remember things, but it's happened with me on other sites in the past so it's possible.”)
• I apologize if any of my edits were misleading.
• There was nothing wrong with removing mention of non-dominant religions from various articles, nor with my edit to New York City.

She has neither denied making, nor offered to explain, any of the several other examples set forth here.

Whatever happened between August 2014 and May 2015, as of now, someone with access to the Packerfansam account believes (again, just by way of example) that mention of non-mainstream Christian religions makes Misplaced Pages articles too long; that references to a subject’s homosexuality or Judaism are best omitted; that “Playboy” is not a reliable source and that material sourced to it should be removed (from the University of Wisconsin–Madison edit war) – and appears to see nothing wrong with any of this.

Since returning from her 48 hour absence, Packerfansam has made 37 edits, including 6 new articles and 2 new categories. She has had ample opportunity to consider the comments here and respond thoughtfully but has commented here only four times and offered no meaningful explanation. She has a clear history of disruptive and POV editing, and I do not understand why, absent clear statements from her that she 1) understands that the edits are unacceptable and 2) pledges to make no more of them, ever, a block of at least some duration should not be forthcoming. JohnInDC (talk) 14:09, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• After again blanking their talk page, the editor is engaging in a discussion at my talk page User_talk:JoeSperrazza#Many_thanks-. I would like to be able to convince the editor to do something to regain our trust. Answering some questions I posed is one way. Perhaps there are other ways. JoeSperrazza (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Indefinite does not mean infinite, and the medical issue suggests that we should block until she is able to explain that she understands what was wrong with the edits, whether or not she remembers making them. Few argue against her edits being disruptive. We have blocked an editor who we believe is medically unable to contribute constructively. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 02:12, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Possible sockpuppet

Please check 24.178.45.221 as a possible sockpuppet of Packerfansam. Examples of similar edits: , , , , , - - - - - . 32.218.32.164 (talk) 22:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Same edits, same squishy edit summaries, same time of day, a Wisconsin emphasis, some of the same articles - indeed the same edit war at University of Wisconsin-Madison - no question. Nice catch. JohnInDC (talk) 23:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see anything inconsistent with WP:VALIDALT. --I am One of Many (talk) 23:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps not. But it yields several more examples of biased editing, we can add edit warring to the list of problems (odd that I hadn't noticed it before, even Packerfansam alone), and it calls into question Packerfansam's assertion above that she had been away from the computer for two and a half days inasmuch as one of the IP's edits comes in the middle of that period. JohnInDC (talk) 23:36, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• In the UW-Madison edit war JohninDC referred to, Packerfansam's POV edits were reverted 4 times, then 24.178.45.221 took over, making the same edits. (See last 6 edits listed above.) That's classic sockpuppetry - using an alternate account to deceive or mislead other editors or to avoid sanctions. The most recent example involved Packerfansam making an innocuous edit at 21:02, then 24.178.45.221 returning almost an hour later (3 minutes after Packerfansam's last edit and after commenting on this board), to make a questionable edit that was reverted by JohninDC. That's a clear attempt to evade detection. 32.218.32.164 (talk) 23:40, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think it is good idea to stop the mind reading for now. There are good possible explanations for everything that we just don't know right now. First, if he is concerned about others using his account, he may log off every time he leaves the computer and sometimes forgets to log on when he returns. It may be that he removed minority religions based on a good faith assumption, but he will come to see that it is not a good idea. Let's see if we can get this resolved peacefully so that everyone can get back to constructing an encyclopedia and retaining productive editors. --I am One of Many (talk) 23:54, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Respectfully, please look at these edits, clear examples of WP:EVADE, made after these issues have been raised at the editor's talk page and WP:ANI and after the editor responded here:

1. Revision as of 01:32, 2015 June 17 , , Editing Legal issues with fan fiction as 24.178.45.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), removes cited information without edit summary or talk page explanation. The 2nd & 3rd edits noted remove sexuality and religion information, edits that are consistent with other problematic edits that have been made by this editor.
2. Revision as of 17:02, 2015 June 17 Editing Fond du Lac, Wisconsin as Packerfansam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), adds reference to a Wisconsin political stub article * ], Wisconsin State Assemblyman
3. Revision as of 17:53, 2015 June 17 Editing Fond du Lac, Wisconsin as 24.178.45.221 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · http · block user · block log), removes referenced information about other than Christianity (in this case, Atheism, but as documened elsewhere, she has been similarly removing Judaism, etc.) 42.7% of Fond du Lac residents do not affiliate with any ].<ref></ref>
4. Latest revision as of 23:58, 2015 June 17 Editing Gottlieb Wehrle as Packerfansam (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log), makes a minor edit to another Wisconsin political article.

This is not supported by the "I forgot to login" excuse, just as their other problematic edits are not explained by the "I was hacked excuse". Per Special:Contributions/24.178.45.221, this has been going on since May 15th of this year. JoeSperrazza (talk) 12:02, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Hoaxing again at Kenny Loggins

We need a range block because of recent activity by the long-term hoaxer, the Kenny Loggins vandal. IPs involved today are:

• 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:5413:8F44:17A6:5B40 (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))
• 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:316C:945D:AF85:E19A (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Perhaps we can temporarily rangeblock 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0. Thanks in advance. Binksternet (talk) 18:08, 15 June 2015 (UTC)

And now another spate of hoaxing by 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:A1D3:9BE1:C1A2:3BFC (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log)).

15 of the last 16 hoaxer IPs started with 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0, so it would be very helpful to block this range. Binksternet (talk) 01:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

And very quickly after that one we have this one: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0:7132:4B62:E645:80BE (talk · tag · contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RBLs · proxy check · block user · block log · cross-wiki contribs · CheckUser (log))

Still looking for an appropriate rangeblock. Binksternet (talk) 01:34, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• HEY. ADMINS. SOMEBODY GIVE BINKSTERNET A RANGEBLOCK PLEASE. I'd do if if I knew how to. I mean, I can, but I'd probably block a whole state. That still doesn't make me care, as long as it's not my own state, but the Foundation will probably cut my allowance. Drmies (talk) 02:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Drmies: Maybe this will help: IPv6 range calculation tool. It was recommended last time this came up here, and I bookmarked it. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 04:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Thanks, but I really shouldn't be messing with any ranges... Drmies (talk) 14:57, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
      • The range needed to cover the four above IPs, as calculated from that tool, is 2602:306:bd7e:caa0::/64 - I have no idea if this is a sensible range to block though. Sam Walton (talk) 15:04, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
        • mw:Help:Range_blocks/IPv6 implies that this covers 18,446,744,073,709,551,616 IPs, so perhaps not appropriate. That said, that's a fraction of the total possible IPv6 IPs, so I have no idea. Sam Walton (talk) 15:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
          • Pinging Mr. IPv6 Jasper Deng to see if he can help out. And (canvassing) perhaps more admins could put in their two cents here? --NeilN 15:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
• @Drmies and Samwalton9: 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0::/64 indeed is the range you want to block. The duration you should use for this is the same as you would use for a single AT&T IPv4 address, although this should be considered more static than a dynamic IPv4. If it's a residential Internet provider, a /64 in IPv6, i.e. having the first four digit groups in common, is easily treatable as a single IP. Do not be deterred by the number of addresses blocked, because by design very few of them will be used.--Jasper Deng (talk) 16:07, 17 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Jasper, I appreciate the note, but I'm just not going to venture there. I wish we had a button we could push that would pull up a list of admins willing and able to make rangeblocks. I'm not one of them. Thanks, Drmies (talk) 15:58, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm blocking 2602:306:BD7E:CAA0::/64 (block range · block log (global) · WHOIS (partial)) for two months. The log shows that the previous rangeblock by User:Monty845 expired on 14 June, which does fit with the dates of the above vandalism reports. EdJohnston (talk) 18:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to add a technical note, while a /64 should be, and appears here to be a single user akin to an IPv4 address, the protocol is new enough that we should keep in mind the possibility that it may not always be, with either rapidly changing /64s from one user, or many users on one /64. Also, when this block expires, if we need to extend it again, linking the previous range block log may help get a quicker block. Monty₈₄₅ 00:07, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I do have to emphasize that looking at WHOIS is of utmost importance with IPv6; my comment strongly depends on the ISP being residential. It most certainly does not apply to mobile or satellite ISP's.Jasper Deng (talk) 03:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Drmies, Category:Wikipedia_administrators_willing_to_make_range_blocks --NeilN 00:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Thanks NeilN. No wonder I hadn't seen it--it's only been here since 2008. As far as I'm concerned, though, it should be renamed: "able to make..." Drmies (talk) 01:31, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Therequiembellishere changing every biographical political article infobox to officeholder

Therequiembellishere appears to be engaged in making wholesale changes of infoboxes on biographical political articles to Infobox officeholder, despite being advised otherwise on his talk page by Bagunceiro and I, which he appears to have ignored for the past four weeks despite my best efforts to redirect him to respond to the discussion on his talk page several times in the edit summaries as well as two messages I sent on his talk page.

Therequiembellishere was asked by Bagunceiro on 12 May why he is changing MP infoboxes to "officeholder and going against the instructions for Template:Infobox officeholder which states that the appropriate derived template should be used, and Infobox MP is clearly the most appropriate.

He responded on the same day claiming that he's "been told" in the past that using those titles involves an unnecessary redirect and that "officeholder" was best but understands that it's possible the precedent has changed since then.

I responded the following day, supporting Bagunceiro stance that the template provides clear guidelines on infobox to use. I added, there is no harm in there being a redirect that is the whole purpose of redirects therefore there is no reason for doing this and asked him to please stop doing this.

He failed to respond to this and continued to change the infoboxes on 22, 23, 26 and 28 May.

I reverted these changes back and sent him another message on his talk page advising him again that Template:Infobox officeholder states; "Please use the most appropriate name when placing this template on a page." Therefore, despite previously being advised of this (from Bagunceiro and I), why he is changing every infobox to officeholder? I asked him to either stop doing this, explain why he continues to do this (as per WP:BRD) or the matter can be taken to WP:ANI.

Therequiembellishere decided to ignore this again and on 11 and 15 June continued to WP:EDIT WAR and change the infoboxes to officeholder.

After I reverted these back, he finally responded on 16 June appearing to concede that the most appropriate infobox should be used but then continued to do the same thing. Tanbircdq (talk) 16:15, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It says clearly at the top of this page: "When you start a discussion about an editor, you must notify them on their user talk page."

You have not done so; please do so immediately. --David Biddulph (talk) 16:53, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Therequiembellishere (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) Userlinks for convenience. Blackmane (talk) 02:17, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Addendum. User notified by Robert McClenon, here Blackmane (talk) 02:19, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I've had similiar problems with this editor over a few years, concerning succession boxes. Also note, the editor's talkpage hasn't been archived since 2009. This may be a WP:COMPETENT issue. GoodDay (talk) 02:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi, I'm in a pretty busy period right now and haven't had time to reply until now. Which is why I've not been terribly available over the past few weeks to answer Tanbircdq's comments. That is, I admit, shitty, but I largely avoided the pages in question until I was more available to answer knowing that I wouldn't be able to competently reply at the time. I finally carved time out to respond after Tanbircdq's reverts became significantly more like wikistalking and I finally addressed him/her on the merits of his contention.

I'll talk about the wikistalking first since it's on my mind. This "dispute" started out with a few frontbench British politicians and he/she followed me to very niche articles like new American ambassadors and federal judicial nominees that he had never had real activity in before. In our recent communication he/she claimed that I couldn't possibly know the usual articles that he/she edits, and condescending said "many editors are involved in editing those articles, not just you" as if I was claiming ownership. I wasn't, I was annoyed that he'd broadened this dispute out to articles that he hadn't previously been attracted to which I know because I've been a part of the federal judge's articles for at least the past seven years and recognize most of the usual editors involved. Tanbircdq is not one of them. Tanbircdq claims he/she only made these edits after receiving an undo notification but, using this as just one example, that's a lie.

As far as the meat of the dispute itself, this is honestly jut so ridiculous to me. Firstly, Tanbircdq is claiming to be a part of some collective action with Bagunceiro, but that it patently untrue. Bagunceiro asked on my talk why I had been changing to officeholder and I replied that under the previous precedent (that I had been hounded for in the past when I was doing exactly what Tanbircdq seems to be obsessed with now), I was told that the specificity of what political office they held created an unnecessary redirect to the standard "Infobox officeholder" and that it was best to use that as the standard. Because, at the end of the day, no matter which marker is used, the information is displayed in exactly the same way every time. I also see additional issues with persons like Tom Carper and George McGovern who serve in multiple roles over their career. Are we supposed to determine which role was most notable to their career and use that as this distinguishing marker when "officeholder" as a neutral mode serves the same purpose? Regardless, Bagunceiro never commented again.

Then Tanbircdq started getting involved and has been hiding behind this, in my opinion, pretty insignificant issue to revert all my work to various infoboxes wholesale. He claims is issue is a technical one (whether to use "Infobox judge" or "Infobox mp" or whatever), but has been making his point by removing the content edits I've made to the rest of the actual box. In particular, many of my infobox edits do serve a technical function make make it easier for editors for finding and editing the infobox by standardizing the information displayed to be in a more columned format (using evenly spaced equal signs between the section header and the information), arranging the sections more like the order they will appear in the box and in removing unneeded and empty sections that amount to bloat that needlessly increase the bytes of the article, often by over 1,000.

After finally replying to Tanbircdq, I went back to all the articles he/she had removed my edits from and brought them back. I said he/she was free to go in and put the "Infobox ..." marker in but my primary concern was just getting the edits back. Which Tanbircdq did, but didn't reply to me in that time I was still at the computer and so I assumed the issue was by-and-large a settled matter. So I have to say I'm honestly pretty surprised this has continued to exist at all, especially going to ANI without me making a single new edit in between. Or in notifying me, which I have to say reeks of trying to get some administrative action put against me without my knowledge, even after being told here to do so, my notification came from Robert McClenon and, indeed, Bagunceiro came in to make it easier to locate. I also have to add that I don't really understand GoodDay's comment here, since the issues are totally separate and my dispute with him was a content issue, whereas this is a technical issue at best. Furthermore, his bringing up of competent, using my unarchived talk as an example is just insulting. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Therequiembellishere: I have not made further comment because I did not feel I had anything constructive to contribute and have not been following the matter closely. This should not be seen as tacit support.

For the record my position is as follows:

Your reply to my question appeared to recognise that you were in error but it seems that you have continued to make these changes.

You do not appear to understand templates, or the benefits of indirection and inheritance. There is no shame in that, but it does mean that you should be even more assiduous in following the instructions for them.

Alternatively you may have a deeper understanding than I and although you haven't yet explained what it is, a good reason for these templates to be deprecated. In which case you should discuss these concerns to obtain consensus for changing the instructions. I guess the talk page for the template is the best place for this, perhaps with heads up messages on pages such as Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Politics of the United Kingdom. If that is not the right place then someone there will be able to suggest where. Unilateral wholesale action is not the right answer.

With regard to what you call stalking by @Tanbircdq. I have no idea whatever of his motives, but his action in reverting your changes quickly was beneficial. Subsequent edits would have made unpicking the mess much more difficult. I imagine the job was a bit tedious. If the two of you have any history of animosity then I would urge you both to put it behind you.

Please stop what you are doing and engage. Bagunceiro (talk) 12:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Regarding Therequiembellishere's ad hominem accusations, the only time I've edited the infoboxes on those articles is when I've received a notification that my edit has been reverted, in which case I've looked through Therequiembellishere's contributions to find other articles in which he's done the same thing on. I've gone through my notifications and present diffs of the times when I've been notified with a revert; (12 May), (28 May). (5 June). (15 June). Note: the only time I've edited the articles was on 12 May, 28 May, 5 June, 15 June.

Being too busy to reply is a poor excuse: you say you've been busy but not busy enough to revert my edits as well as change infoboxes on other articles. No, you didn't avoid the pages in question at all as the diffs clearly show you were repeatedly edit warring and clearly breaching BRD in those articles (as this and this example shows). I felt the need to say that many editors are involved in editing these articles because you appeared to suggest that I shouldn't be editing on "articles far outside" my "usual purview".

Just to be clear I didn't revert your work, I merged the information with the original information that was on each article before you changed them, and as Bagunceiro has pointed out it was very tedious indeed but I was willing to spend the time and effort to do this rather than just simply revert your edit. On the contrary, it was you who reverted me every single time. My motives in this are simply to uphold policies and guidelines. There's no history of animosity between Therequiembellishere and I, I just take exception to being ignored the way he clearly has.

You can't claim to be a victim of injustice here when I clearly asked you here that you can either stop, explain why you're doing this or the matter can be taken to ANI (as you can see I wasn't joking), and patiently gave you every possibly opportunity to do this, and only at the last resort took the matter to ANI as you failed to do this.

Finally, it's not mine or the community's job to spend time cleaning your mistakes by putting the correct Infobox marker after you've changed them. I hope you now accept this policy/guideline as this recalcitrancy must stop. If you change another infobox to officeholder without justification then we'll be back here again for sanctions to be imposed against you as I'm not prepared to send multiple messages on your talk page which you won't respond to. If you have a problem with this then (as I suggested by Bagunceiro) you raise an RfC so consensus can be changed on the issue as a few editor's opinions on one talk page is not appropriate nor sufficient to suggest change on something which if consistent would potentially affect thousands of articles which have followed a formula over the course of the last 10 years.

Back to the matter in question, the problem isn't the content dispute itself, it's your failure to respond with other editors on your talkpage (regarding issues about your editing) due to what appears to be your WP:IDHT approach. Can you provide an explanation why this might be? Tanbircdq (talk) 19:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Admin eyes please - Rachel Dolezal, Transracial, Transracial identity, Racial transformation (individual), associated AfDs

Hello all, there is currently an off-wiki campaign in the wake of the Rachel Dolezal case to have an article on the neologism Transracial or similar. The fact that we don't currently have an article on what would be a clearly important medical or sociological condition should tell you all you need to know. Some reliable (and unreliable) sources have used the term (mostly in scare quotes, it has to be said), and some editors have dug up older (as old as 2008!) references to the word. Earlier today I blocked User:Andhisteam for clear trolling on this issue (see Dolezal's talk page and elsewhere for that one), and I have just AfD'd Transracial identity, assuming good faith as it was an established editor who created it (though they haven't edited much recently). Given that this is, for Dolezal, a BLP issue - not to mention a serious issue of WP:OR, WP:V etc., more eyes are requested on all of these articles. Black Kite (talk) 18:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Black Kite - I note you've been WP:CANVASSING editors to your AfD of the article I recently created. I'd like to request you not do that. Thanks. BlueSalix (talk) 18:43, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

That accusation is evidently flatly wrong. The article you created is the third article on a WP:HOAX concept that Internet trolls have propagated in the last week, and the third subject of an ongoing AfD over the same term or concept. Obviously users who have participated in the AfDs of the other attempts to get this hoax into Misplaced Pages have a legitimate interest to be made aware of new hoax articles based on the same Internet meme. Tadeusz Nowak (talk) 19:12, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Please calm down. This is an edit discussion, not the Battle of Waterloo. Thank you. BlueSalix (talk) 19:39, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I can tell you've read WP:CALMDOWN. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑ 19:41, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Good point, Callmemirela. My bad. Comment stricken BlueSalix (talk) 19:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

It's Bloomsday, when everyone should consume calming Guinnesses and kidneys. The Battle of Waterloo is the day after tomorrow. Paul B (talk) 19:52, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

If I'd wanted to canvass the AfD, I'd hardly have posted in on the Rachel Dolezam talkpage, which is currently habited by people who support getting the whole Transracial issue into the article. Black Kite (talk) 09:27, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

• I have closed Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Transracial (2nd nomination), which isn't going anywhere--the discussion isn't, and that DAB shouldn't be going anywhere either, at least not now. I'm tempted to revert the page to an earlier stage, something that makes sense considering that the two recent additions are under discussion, but I'm afraid that will only add to the shitstorm. I suggest we let the two other two AfDs play out. Drmies (talk) 20:59, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

I think that is the right decision, Drmies. While I don't think the concept is a hoax, there are clearly some trolls involved in recent editing which you can tell by the gibberish in the edit summaries. There is no deadline and I think when this subject is expanded upon, and I think it eventually will be, there will be sufficient sources to write proper articles. Liz 22:27, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

No, not a hoax, but not ready for primetime. Trolls will need to be handled in the usual way; semi-protection can be liberally applied if necessary. Drmies (talk) 02:18, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

You won't believe this, Drmies, but I heard on the radio that one of the television broadcast networks has plans to air a series called Transracial. It may not make it past a pilot episode but if it does, I guess there will be an almost completely unrelated article about this sociological concept. Liz 21:48, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd agree with you if this WIKI were a dedication to the slang word "whigger" (apologies). The term transracial by definition means "involving, encompassing, or extending across two or more races" in regards to adoption (such as the word (multiracial). The identity issue isn't new, but it is currently popular as media gossip and fodder for social forums. I don't believe the WIKI is a hoax nor should be removed, but I would rather see an interaction in FORUM discussions. It could get very soap-boxy in here. This is a current trend & public interest story, so let's see if there's any longevity to it. Although I agree we'll probably face an editing war, I think it's an interesting enough content to make a really good Misplaced Pages article.--j0eg0d (talk) 07:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Problematic behavior by Seattleditor - Probably COI, personal attacks, disruptive editing.

User Seattleditor (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has been editing on Roger Libby the past few days. Their edits on the article's talk page indicate a conflict of interest and, up until now, they've mostly keep their editing to that talk page. Today, after I edited the page to reduce its SOAPy nature, they began removing maintenance templates from the page. I attempted to engage the user about it (here). They had done similarly in the past () saying it would negative effect the article subject's customers. After this, the user made this edit on my talk page accusing me deliberate malice that requires admin review and that I explained to you that as a practicing psychologist and psychotherapist, it is highly damaging to this licensed mental health professional to have his biography marked up with questions and errata.

I am requesting admin action on this. It appears that either the user is unable to handle their COI or they are NOTHERE. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 03:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

agreed, there's a dearth of sources on that article and those that are there are almost all primary sources, Seattleditor is removing the tags indicating that fact, that's not cool at all. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 17:39, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Moreover, their use of "we" in their post on my user talk page makes me think the COI here is strong. Their post was completely out of line. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 19:10, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

In Response, EvergreenFir Has Misinterpreted Both Intent and Concerns

I am a practicing journalist, one who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists, who wrote an article about this Dr. for a Seattle area publication. There is no COI on my part. However EvergreenFir has several COIs. First, his only authored page, for a Murray A. Strauss, bios a person who is a rival of the good doctor. Most ironically, the two doctors authored a major research paper together on sex and violence (which contradicts the claim of no secondary sources, the editor's own biographical subject was a collaborator.) I mean no personal animosity or offense but the other apparent COI is in the editor's (EvergreenFir) profile where he has elected to make various statements about his own gender issues. Regardless of personal bias, it is not clear to me how a distinguished position title within an organization can be secondarily sourced. Where such attribution exists, it has been provided (such as to membership rosters on publicly accessible pages.) What is curious is why the editor does not choose to actually edit the text which has gone untouched for a great many months, and instead inject uncertainty and doubt. In fact, I had expressed my misgivings that this could do harm if the patients of this practicing sex therapist found that the same page that had been untouched for so long is suddenly pockmarked with multiple assertions of errata. When I "Talked" about that to EvergreenFir I stated that, for my part, I was open to any edits he may like to provide but I requested he did not make the doctor appear unworthy or uncredentialed in light of the concurrent sensitivities of doctor-patient relationships. I presumed he was okay with that so I removed the template(s) for that reason and that reason alone. Please be advised, I did not author the section on the countless TV and radio appearances made by Dr. Libby which EvergreenFir has since removed. The "We" in my writing simply connotes that Dr. Libby sought my help since he was aware I had helped contribute to the original content. I have no COI whereas EvergreenFir 's COI is well documented. The fact of the matter is that Dr. Roger Libby is America's premiere Sex Therapist. If that is disturbing to this editor, he is welcome to call in a colleague. Oh, he actually did that and the colleague acknowledged that the academic credentials (post-doctoral) being beyond reproach. It seems to this relative neophyte that Misplaced Pages needs a way to make sourcing changes, IF necessary "behind the scenes" and not in a shameful, public way that casts doubt on the credibility or authority of a biography, especially in the cases of practicing health care professionals. Seattleditor (talk) 21:59, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) I think you might be a little confused as to how Misplaced Pages works. Writing an article for inclusion in a magazine kind of skirts the line of WP:NOTWEBHOST. But more importantly, if negative things about your friend can be reliably sourced, I'm afraid that isn't a violation of policy; see WP:BLP. Erpert 00:55, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Can someone please take care of these personal attacks? How does my gender identity have anything to do with this? And if the subject of an article asked you to come and comment on their Misplaced Pages article, that's a WP:COI (whereas writing articles about criminologists is not)... Seattleditor if you are the author of that article, then you are Searchwriter and currently sockpuppeting... EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:23, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• The bio is certainly problematic as it contains just one secondary source, and most of it is unsourced. One solution is to remove anything unsourced and slowly re-build it. Seattleditor, if you're editing with two accounts, please pick one and retire the other (or link them in some way). Also, please don't make personal comments about EvergreenFir. Sarah 01:36, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• There's also an issue with the image, which Seattleeditor added as his own work, but the image is on Libby's website. Unless Seattleeditor took that photograph, it needs a release. Sarah 01:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Regarding the image, since it appears on the banner of a copyrighted website, I've requested deletion at Commons unless the uploader can show OTRS either ownership or a license to use the image from the copyright owner. BMK (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I whittled down the article quite a bit (diff) which was the apparent impetus for the hostility. Quite annoyed at these attacks and ridiculous claims. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:46, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Searchwriter started the Libby article at User:Searchwriter/sandbox on 20 February 2014. The image was uploaded by Seattle24x7 on 21 February 2014, and Seattleeditor says he is Seattle24x7, so the three accounts do seem to be one person. Yes, the attacks need to stop. Sarah 02:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• It seems from a brief look at Seattle24x7 and related websites that this is SEO/marketing. Perhaps it's better handled at COIN in case other articles or accounts are involved. Pinging Jytdog in case he wants to take a look. Sarah 04:50, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I left a long message for SeattleEditor at their talk page. Too long for ANI. I'd ask that folks give him a chance to reply there. Basically I am recommending that SeattleEditor change course or that we indef him per NOTHERE. Let's see what he says. Jytdog (talk) 14:20, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Jytdog: Thank you for taking the time to do that. Much appreciated. I hope the user responds favorably. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 16:19, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Jytdog, ditto, thank you. Sarah 17:13, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Possibility of paid editing

As noted above, the Roger Libby article began in the sandbox of User:Searchwriter, as did the article Lane Powell, about a Seattle law firm. Both of the articles appear to have been intended to be promotional, and have only been rendered acceptable by stripping out large amounts of information which is unsourced or attributed only to primary sources.

The user page for Searchwriter says:

This is the User Page for the editor of Seattle24x7.com, a Seattle news bureau Website. Thanks for your interest and comments. Everything we contribute to WikiPedia is fully "white-hat," attributed, and well-documented and includes citations.

The account name User talk:Seattle24x7 was username blocked in 2010. No edits exist in their contrib list, but their talk page indicates that they wrote an article on a book titled "The High Road Has Less Traffic", which was prodded as being self-published, and subsequently deleted at AfD as being non-notable.

The account User:Seattleditor was created just a few days ago, apparently for the purpose of editing the Roger Libby article. On their userpage they acknowledge that their former user name was "Seattle24x7", the name of their "Seattle-based e-zine". An examinination of the website shows quite clearly that it's a public-relations outlet: many of the articles are written by the CEOs of the companies they're about. This is clearly not a WP:RS, and not even a blog, it is, as its browser tab quite clearly states "Seattle's Internet Business Directory and Calendar".

What we have here is, I believe, paid editing on the part of Seattleeditor aka Seattle24x7 and Searchwriter. Seattleeditor is not " a practicing journalist ... who abides by the Code of Ethics of the Society of Professional Journalists", he's a PR guy for hire, who'll do up an article on your law firm or your controversial medical practise, or whatever for his own "e-zine" or for Misplaced Pages.

I suggest that the unblocked accounts be blocked unless they comply with our requirements for paid editors as outlined on WP:TOU and WP:COI. That means an admission on their user page, and on article talk page of their conflict of interest and their status as a paid editor. It also means that they cannot directly edit the articles, but must make suggestions on the talk page which other editors can implement if they agree. BMK (talk) 22:26, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Incidentally, folks should read Seattleditor's reply to Jytdog on their talk page here for an example of how not to write in a comprehensible way, how to hide the true nature of one's publication in convoluted and deceptive language, with phrases such as "pro bono" thrown in to make things look better, and how, in particular, not to answer straight-forward questions in a straight-forward manner. BMK (talk) 23:21, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Three other items:

• A picture of Dr. Libby was previously uploaded on en.wiki by user Searchwriter, and deleted for permission problems. Admins can look and see if File:Dr. Roger Libby in 2014.png is the same image that's currently in the article, which I have requested deletion of on Commons for the same reason.
• There's no doubt that the three accounts are the same person. After User:Seattle24x7 was username blocked, User:Seattleditor refrerred to it as his previous account. On the talk page of User:Searchwriter the editor reveals his real world name, and on the "Seattle24x7" website, the person of that name is described as "founder, publisher and managing editor of Seattle24x7, the founder of SearchWrite Search Marketing, an SEO, PPC and Social Media Thought Leader, and an SPJ award winner for Seattle magazine." This accords with the information in Seattleditor's response to Jytdog;s inquiry, and also reinforces the suspicion that SEO/promotion is what's going on here -- i.e. paid editing.
• Seattleditor's response on the Commons deletion request is informative.

(Incidentally, my understanding is that my second item is not WP:outing because the user revealed the information on their talk page. If an admin feels it oversteps the bounds, please delete the item.) BMK (talk) 12:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

BMK FYI, in my first iterations of my note to SeattleEditor I included their name in a quote from the "about the author" section of the seattle24x7 profile of Libby, and later redacted it. I emailed oversight and asked them to oversight the pre-redaction versions. They declined, saying it was not a violation of OUTING. So we are OK on using his RW name. Jytdog (talk) 00:35, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for that info. BMK (talk) 04:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Propose indef per WP:NOTHERE

So SeattleEditor's reply was not what any of us wanted. They are NOTHERE and appear to be dug in so far that there is no teaching them how to be HERE at this time. Jytdog (talk) 00:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC) (add missing "no" Jytdog (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2015 (UTC))

• Support EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 01:27, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support per their response to Jytdog. BMK (talk) 02:37, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support per their response to Jytdog and another response to me. I asked two simple yes/no questions and got more evasive, combative, non-responsive verbal spew. We don't have the time or energy to waste on this gaming of the system. — Brianhe (talk) 04:28, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Support. I support sanctions against User:Seattleditor. I wish there was a WP:POMPOUS essay, but I'll just have to be left with citing meta:Don't be a jerk (in reference to comments aimed at EGF). (Oh, and is WP:PEACOCK even allowed as an argument against an editor's comments? Well, then, that, too.)

In addition to NOTHERE cited in the title, for the record I also agree that there is a violation of WP:NPOV here that rises to WP:COI. I was hoping for @Jytdog:'s promised WP:COIN post before weighing in, but the original {{long}} comment is incorporated by reference to the reply to it, above.

I also agree that there may be a WP:SOCK issue here (I'd hope EGF will file a WP:SPI if appropriate). I'm not really sure which is worse, COI or SOCK, I feel they are both duplicitous.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 04:51, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Support. Since Jimbo probably wouldn't approve, I'll refrain from suggesting an alternate title for an essay on how to respond to such contributors... AndyTheGrump (talk) 05:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
• Holding note. There is consensus for an indef block per WP:NOTHERE. Unless something else eventuates, I intend to place that block after the AfD discussion mentioned below has been decided; Seattleditor should preferably have a chance to comment in the AfD. Please feel free to continue discussing Jytdog's block proposal in this section while we wait. Bishonen | talk 22:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC).

Roger Libby now on AfD

Literally all the sources of the article are primary sources, in the sense of being publications by Dr Libby himself — not "nearly" all, a phrase used above I suppose in honour of the current note 13. That footnote appears to cite a different author, Murray A. Straus, which may mislead the unwary, but it actually references a 1978 anthology which contains an article by Libby; i. e., that too is a primary source. Or not a source so much; it's a publication, an article, which appears in the list of Libby's publications. So, no secondary sources, and none have been offered since Evergreen Fir tagged the article three weeks ago. On the contrary, User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account, has attempted to remove the tags protesting that they're "damaging to the credibility of the doctor" and "deleterious to the patients of the doctor". (That edit was made by an IP, clearly User:Seattleditor logged out accidentally, not attempting in any way to hide.) All this suggests to me that Roger Libby shouldn't be on Misplaced Pages. We don't do self-sourced bios, because they can't show notability. I've listed it on Articles for deletion. Seattleditor's understanding of policy does appear to be poor, and the way they answer questions quite evasive, but perhaps we might as well put off the issue of a block until the AfD is done, so that they can take part in it. Bishonen | talk 07:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC).

• Bishonen, I thank you for your wise intervention.

There is a point that I wish to clarify for those listening in: "User:Seattleditor, a single purpose account" is not a reference to the Dr. Libby article. Instead, the SPA accusation, is I feel, accurate, on the basis that the user advocates for articles written at Seattle24x7. Dr. Libby's article there happens to be among those (as has been proven by others, above). The "single purpose" here, is about Seattle24x7, a PR news site (as another user put it, "CEO porn"), not about Dr. Libby himself.   —Aladdin Sane (talk) 18:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Antifeminism

I've been trying to improve the Antifeminism article, because I think the current one is very bad for many reasons (it's very biased in tone, it doesn't accurately reflect its sources, and it's sloppy in general). There has been a huge resistance to this from a few editors though, who clearly want to leave the article in its current state, are unwilling to work cooperatively, and instead dismiss all criticism I have of it as original research, which lacks sources. Now I've tried to explain to them repeatedly that I disagree with this, because the criticism I had was criticism of the article, not of which information it should contain, or which sources it should use. They completely ignore this though, and instead keep repeating the same thing over and over again.

Now I've been trying to assume good faith, and kept assuming that they were misreading what I wrote, but it's getting so weird that it's becoming really difficult to maintain this. See this thread ], and especially Fyddlestix (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) second reply. The section was about something I removed, because it was unsourced, but which got reverted back. I tried to discuss this, and explain why it wasn't supported by the sources, but instead they went on pretending that I was trying to add information, which wasn't supported by sources. There's just no way that such a reply can be made in good faith to the what I wrote above it. It's becoming clear enough that they're just intentionally being impossible, probably either to frustrate me to a point where I would give up, or provoke me into questioning their intelligence, so that they can block me over personal attacks.Didaev (talk) 17:56, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

This appears to be basically a content dispute, although it may be complicated by stubbornness and incivility. I suggest that you ask for formal mediation. A mediator may be able to get the parties to explain and work on their differences. If the other editors do not agree to formal mediation, then the next step for dealing with conduct issues would be Arbitration Enforcement under the gender-related sanctions under WP:ARBGG. But I suggest that mediation be tried. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:06, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

I see this less as a content dispute and more as a problem of disruptive editing on Diadaev's part. This user has been lobbying for changes to the article on Antifeminism for a couple of weeks, but their talk page posts are based on their own subjective opinions & reasoning, rather than on RS (this is probably the worst example). They've been prodded for sources and asked to stop making subjective arguments several times, and they've been given a formal warning for failure to cite sources and disruptive editing.

In the comment Didaev refers to above, I was simply trying to impress upon them the importance of citing sources - I was hoping that engaging with some sources might refocus the conversation and make it less subjective. But Diadev has chosen to raise the matter here rather than do that. So I don't see how mediation is going to help unless Didaev is willing to make some sourced, non-subjective arguments. Fyddlestix (talk) 22:22, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

On the one hand, a mediator would insist on citing sources. On the other hand, if User:Didaev is ignoring advice to cite sources, then that may be good-faith editing that is nonetheless disruptive editing. If this is seen as a conduct dispute, it is my experience that Arbitration Enforcement works more efficiently than this noticeboard. Has Didaev been notified of gender-related discretionary sanctions? Robert McClenon (talk) 23:42, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Good point, it looks like they hadn't been warned about the DS. I added the warning just now. Fyddlestix (talk) 01:47, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Surely Didaev is editing in good faith, but unfortunately is still not getting the point about how all of our work on the article must be based on the summarization of reliable sources. Didaev is offering criticisms of the article which are personal criticisms. This is not helping the situation at all. What is needed is for Didaev to refer to reliable published sources when making arguments about what to change in the antifeminism article. Until that happens there's not much influence that Didaev can have on the article. Lacking any leverage based on what is found in the literature, the talk page complaints by Didaev are ultimately disruptive. Binksternet (talk) 03:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that the 'reliable source' doctrine is being abused here to skew the page towards a particular point of view. On the original discussion page, Binksternet et. al. have explicitly stated their belief that the only valid sources of information about "antifeminism" are feminist scholars. This must lead to a one-sided characterization. JudahH (talk) 05:57, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's a fair characterization - as far as I've seen, no one has argued that feminist scholars are "the only valid sources of information" about anti-feminism. Rather, they've argued that there just isn't all that much (or any) academic literature about antifeminism itself that takes a "pro" antifeminist perspective. Fyddlestix (talk) 15:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• Didaev is a new user and an 100% single purpose account — they've edited only Antifeminism and its talkpage. It does look like they've come here to right great wrongs, and I will consider a topic ban if they should persist with their agenda to the point of disrupting the talkpage. However, there's no need for anything like that yet, as they haven't edited since receiving the discretionary sanctions alert. Perhaps they're thinking about it and will return more willing to listen to experienced editors. Well, see the optimist's guide to Misplaced Pages, I suppose, but it never hurts to assume the best, especially of new users. Bishonen | talk 12:11, 22 June 2015 (UTC).

User:Saturne160 and WP:V

This user apparently has poor understanding of WP:V and WP:BLP. I spotted them in Julie Bresset when they added the category Category:Breton people. The article has no evidence that Bresset is Breton (which I know very well, since I have written the article). The user apparently believes that if Bresset lives in Brittany that makes her Breton. They already made four reverts, but have chosen not to react at the message at their talk page, and also not on the message at the talk page of the article. Today I found one more article where they had a similar problem, they reverted me within an hour. For the record, I speak French, so their claim that I can not find in French articles what s written there is not really justified. May be someone can help me with explaining policies to the user. They edit infrequently (not every day) and did not overstep 3RR. Thank you.--Ymblanter (talk) 10:53, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I posted a note on their talk page, we'll see if it gets their attention. They don't often use their user talk page. Liz 13:00, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Indeed, they prefer reverts.--Ymblanter (talk) 13:10, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Since they do not reply (their usual tactics, if they have their version, they do nothing), I am going to revert again and see what happens.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Onel5969 misuse of rollback

Diff: 07:08, 18 June 2015 (-1,383)

Onel5969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) reverted twelve consecutive edits of a fellow editor with an edit summary "Rev npov edits which go against consensus on talk pag", please see diff. The edits were reverted from an actively discussed and edited, contentious article, Americans for Prosperity. The article is within the scope of discretionary sanctions including climate change and the Tea party movement (ds alerts). The edits rolled back included:

1. 00:21, 18 June 2015 "- unnecessary, non-neutral, cherry-picked legal implication of filing status; lede summarizes notability of subject; legal details for body, thanks", an edit intended to trim a recent undiscussed addition to the lede
2. 00:33, 18 June 2015, a neutral, minor copy edit
3. 00:44, 18 June 2015 "add rs ref", a neutral edit to add a high quality reliable source (no new content) reference to unsourced content as per WP:VER
4. 00:52, 18 June 2015 "fix ref, name ref", a neutral edit to add a publisher and magazine name to a reliable source reference (no new content)
5. 00:53, 18 June 2015 "add rs ref", an edit to add a second, high quality reliable source reference to contended content (no new content)
6. 00:53, 18 June 2015 "a very few words of brief description in text for clarity, drawn from lede of target wl, as per WP:LINKSTYLE", a neutral edit, word-for-word from the very lede sentence of our article
7. 01:14, 18 June 2015 "brief description in text for clarity, drawn from reliable source, as per WP:LINKSTYLE", a neutral edit which provides the only context for two highly significant actors in the article
8. 01:28, 18 June 2015 "add noteworthiness of 2010 funding source", a neutral edit, a paraphrase of a highly reliable source The Guardian, which adds a statement of the noteworthiness of contented content, and adds the relevant excerpt from the reliable source to the reference
9. 01:32, 18 June 2015 "+ wl, + highly significant subject of the sentence as stated in reliable source" a neutral edit which adds a wikilink to a highly significant actor in this article on first mention, and paraphrases the highly reliable and noteworthy source The New York Times Magazine more neutrally and accurately by restoring the highly significant subject of the sentence from the source recently deleted without discussion
10. 01:34, 18 June 2015 "ce, nation -> US", a neutral copy edit, word choice
11. 01:43, 18 June 2015 "add excerpt from reliable source to reference", an edit which adds a brief, highly relevant excerpt from a highly reliable and noteworthy source The New York Times Magazine in support of a contended content
12. 01:48, 18 June 2015 "move content to relevant subsection" a neutral edit which moves content to the appropriate subsection, no new content

Our behavioral guideline WP:ROLLBACK restricts rollback to certain specific applications. Clearly, at least some of these edits are good faith edits which cannot reasonably be construed as part of any neutrality dispute. Our policy WP:PRESERVE recommends steps to be taken before deleting the contributions of a fellow editor. Our essay WP:DRNC recommends against deleting content with an edit summary of "no consensus." Thank you for your attention to this. Hugh (talk) 16:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

I see some undoing of edits, but that was not with the rollback tool but with Twinkle rollback. I just thought I'd point that out in case of confusion. Dustin (talk) 16:57, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, Twinkle rollback. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

No misuse of rollback. From the same guideline: "The above restrictions apply to standard rollback, using the generic edit summary. If a tool or manual method is used to add an appropriate explanatory edit summary (as described in the Additional tools section below), then rollback may be freely used as with any other method of reverting." If proper edit summaries were added, using rollback is accepted. --NeilN 17:06, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

"If proper edit summaries were added, using rollback is accepted." The edit summary is improper. The edit summary mentioned NPOV and "no consensus." The edit reverted 12 edits of a fellow editor, most of which are clearly good faith edits that could not reasonably be understood as non-neutral or contrary to talk page consensus, see comments above. This rollback was reverting an editor, not edits WP:BATTLE, and feels very much like an attempt to reduce an editor's enjoyment of Misplaced Pages WP:HARASS. Hugh (talk) 19:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

WP:DROPTHESTICK. Onel5969 did not think your edits improved the article so he reverted them. You did not like that so you dragged him here, hoping to disguise a content dispute as a conduct issue. --NeilN 16:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, the sequence of edits is another attempt by HughD to assert his non-neutral POV on the article. His edits were in direct contradiction of the consensus on the talk page of the article. This editor has also campaigned on other pages to assist in promoting his POV. This editor has also been counseled in the past about his contentious editing on this page. While some of his edits are valid, his consistent incessant editing makes it impossible to "undo" the edits which are contrary to the talkpage consensus, however in this instance, each of his sequence of edits was in direct contradiction of that consensus, so therefore is not a violation of the rollback privilege. The other editors involved in the consensus were DaltonCastle, Capitalismojo, and Champaign Supernova, and (just recently) Comatmebro. I have asked HughD to refrain from editing the article until consensus was reached, and while I feel it has been reached, I was waiting for more comments from other editors in order to achieve a broader consensus. HughD has been asked several times to wait for consensus, and in spite of the current consensus being against his edits, he made the unilateral decision to edit adversely to the current consensus. This editor, I just realized is just back from a ban on editing from a similar incident on this talk page, and has been banned several times in the last 3 months for similar behavior. It is very wearying and time-consuming dealing with editors like this. Not sure what to do with him at this point. But thank you Dustin V. S. and NeilN for your above comments. Onel5969 (talk) 17:29, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

"in this instance, each of his sequence of edits was in direct contradiction of that consensus" Please document your claim by provide links, for all of the above edits, to the specific talk page discussion where a specific concensus against each of the above edits is reached. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a WP:BOOMERANG situation. Hugh has been consistently editing against a clear talk page consensus, and is continually re-inserting his preferred content despite the fact that no other editors have expressed agreement with these edits. He appears to be engaged in article ownership and since he cannot build a consensus for his preferred edits, he is resorting to filing merit-less incident reports. The community is growing tired of these disruptive antics. Champaign Supernova (talk) 19:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Hugh, this is getting old. We see your pattern: ignore community consensus, accuse accuse report, repeat. You dont come out of this looking like a victim. DaltonCastle (talk) 21:49, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

The fact that HughD has posted "discretionary sanction" warnings like these without any followup or intention of pursuing them is both WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:BULLYING. Opening this thread, which has so little merit, adds WP:HARRASS and WP:WIKILAWYERING to the mix. When notifying Onel5969 of this thread HughD directed O to AN rather than ANI. I hope that was just a mistake but it does add to the issues that make a WP:BOOMERANG something to be considered. MarnetteD|Talk 22:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@MarnetteD: Hello MarnetteD, any editor may alert fellow editors to discretionary sanctions, please see WP:ACDS. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 19:19, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm going to suggest we close this here as no action with regard to Onel5969. Instead of deciding on a boomerang for HughD here, we can just close it without prejudice to anyone filling an WP:AE request, (or and admin directly invoking discretionary sanctions if they are so inclined) as that seems like a superior venue for dealing with this sort of thing. Monty₈₄₅ 00:26, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Excuse me, Monty845, but the WP:AE thing... is that something I should do? Or is someone else going to do it? Bit new to this ANI thing, so I'm unclear. Sorry to bother you. Onel5969 (talk) 00:52, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd wait to see the outcome here first, as you don't want anyone to suggest your venue shopping. If my approach was taken, its something you could do if you think its necessary. We could also just discuss it fully here, but I'd prefer we pass it to AE, as the regulars there are often better at dealing with this sort of behavior. Monty₈₄₅ 01:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Monty845 - As I said, I'm not real familiar with this venue, so wasn't sure how this is "closed", or if I needed to bring the matter to AE. I've only been involved in two "incidents" (both coincidently in the last 2 days), and in the other one the nominating editor was blocked for a year for their nonsense. I'm guessing there will be some decision by which I know this discussion has reached an outcome. Onel5969 (talk) 02:03, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Diff: 19:14, 18 June 2015 (-2,758)

Hours later, Onel5969 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) rolled back 10 consecutive talk page edits from Talk:Americans for Prosperity, reverting the talk page to a previous edit of his. The reverted edits included 8 talk page contributions of a fellow editor. The talk page involved is that of an actively discussed and edited, contentious article, Americans for Prosperity. The edits rolled back included project additions and talk page comments:

1. 18:17, 18 June 2015 "+ project as project member"
2. 18:19, 18 June 2015 "+ project as project member"
3. 18:22, 18 June 2015 "request focus"
4. 18:25, 18 June 2015 "request focus on topics appropriate for article talk page"
5. 18:30, 18 June 2015 "responding to nonsense", a self-revert
6. 18:34, 18 June 2015 "responding to nonsense", a self-revert
7. 18:37, 18 June 2015 a request for focus on content
8. 18:52, 18 June 2015 contribution to talk page thread
9. 18:56, 18 June 2015 "request focus on discussion appropriate for an article talk page"
10. 19:14, 18 June 2015 rollback

Thank you for your attention to this. Hugh (talk) 02:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

HughD is absolutely correct on this last issue, when I attempted to revert his non-neutral edits, I clicked "restore this version", not "rollback", which not only reverted his incorrect edits, but also included valid edits by both him and other edits. Since he has incessant edits, I accidently pulled other edits in my reversion. I have corrected. Onel5969 (talk) 03:30, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

User:danielkueh playing games on Talk:Race (human classification)

https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Race_%28human_classification%29#Lead_sentence

I noticed this article claims the race concept in humans is entirely social in the first sentence, which can be read as biologically meaningless. I pointed out that some scholars think this, while others, prominent ones, don't. While pointing this out on talk and providing sources, User:danielkueh appears to be stalling by "playing dumb" and deliberately misunderstanding my sources and points. For example I provide a quote from Mayr which is specifically about the word race and how the biological concept it refers to can be applied to humans in the same way as animals. danielkueh claims "Race, as it is used by Mayr, refers to "breed" or "varieties"." He then asks why we have two articles, ie. race (biology) and race (human), if there is one definition. I repeatedly point out that there are several biological definitions of race, which all go in the biological race article, and all of which applied to humans go in the human race article, along with the social definitions and the controversy. Unfortunately he ignores this and repeatedly asks me why we have two articles if there is one definition: "Really? So there is only one definition of race? And one commentary by Mayr trumps everybody else? Interesting. So why do we have two articles again?" This can only be taken as a deliberate attempt to stall discussion. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 21:15, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Captain, WP:ANI is for disputes over editor conduct, not content disputes. Please discuss this difference of opinion on the article talk page and if you find, after substantial discussion, that your dispute is not resolved, go to dispute resolution and get some mediation to help. Also, if you come to ANI again with a complaint, please provide diffs that back up the claim you are making about misconduct. You need to provide evidence, not just your opinion and this is not a place to rehash your disagreement. Liz 21:27, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

This is a conduct issue. He is clearly deliberately missing the point eg.

It wouldn't be defined differently if the POV pushers on this article put in the biological race concept applied to humans. And we include any other social definitions and POVs, including race is biological meaningless. Multiple definitions and POVs are possible in an article. This is what NPOV is about. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 20:38, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

@Captain JT, Really? So there is only one definition of race? And one commentary by Mayr trumps everybody else? Interesting. So why do we have two articles again? danielkueh (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

At this point I am reporting you for wilfully misunderstanding me. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 20:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 21:31, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

It looks like a content dispute being complicated by incivility. Even if there is incivility, one of the dispute resolution procedures may be able to help you resolve the issue by enabling the parties to communicate. The first step, before any dispute resolution procedure, is discussion on the talk page. Good luck. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:41, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

We're discussing on the talk page. He keeps mocking me. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 21:45, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

• Well, you have a very mockable username--"Verity"--and come in with blazing guns, into a highly contentious topic area, with more zeal than wisdom. For the record, I didn't see much mocking, unless "good luck with that" counts as mocking. I did see a Grumpy Andy pointing out some very basic things to you, and you didn't seem to be listening. My crystal ball and my tea leaves both tell me, though, that you are going to run into trouble if you keep this up, this forumming and Ididn'thearthat-ing. Drmies (talk) 23:40, 18 June 2015 (UTC)

"Ididn'thearthat-ing"? Isn't that exactly what we see above? Ironically, isn't that what you are doing now? It's easy to "point out some very basic things" as if the other person didn't know that, to poison the atmosphere against them. However we have a specific incidence of Ididn'thearthat-ing on this specific talk page which is stalling discussion (no doubt on purpose). This is what I would like addressed. I don't want to hear "yeah well you didn't listen to your mom in 1988" or some such diverting tu quoque irrelevance. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 09:42, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Does anyone recognize this supposedly new editor from previous now indef-blocked disruptive editors on this topic? As Drmies implies above, the user name is a bit too arch to be an innocent choice. BMK (talk) 11:31, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm referring to "Captain JT Verity MBA". "Verity", of course, means "truth", and it's been a long-standing observation that editors who choose to include "truth" in their usernames have an agenda, are usually here to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and often end up being blocked or banned. I have to wonder if "JT" means "Just The", as in "Just The Truth", and I'm also reminded that one of the editors who was banned from Misplaced Pages because of disruptive editing over race also had "Captain" in his user name. Given all this, I'm wondering if an SPI might be worthwhile to find out if "Captain JT Verity" might not be the return of Captain Occam, or one of his cohort. BMK (talk) 21:13, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Bizarrely Danielkueh is now following me around accusing me of having a "Napoleon complex". (I'm 6'2" FWIW) Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 21:00, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

He didn't really have very far to go, did he? You must be from a race of giants. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I must express my disapproval of BMK's collapse of this point. It's clearly a behavioral issue, I cannot believe a reasonable person could fail to understand the point I was making so it's stonewalling effected by IDHT and misrepresentation, a behavioral issue. Does BMK have a partisan history in this area by any chance? Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 21:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

It must come in very handy for you. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:43, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Because ANI is not the place to have debates of how to define race. I think BMK is trying to draw this to a close because it might boomerang back on you. Please read up on the policy pages that have been suggested to you so you understand expectations of editors on Misplaced Pages. Liz 21:59, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not trying to define race. I'm pointing out stonewalling by deliberate failure to address my points, ie. misrepresenting what I'm saying to stall time and annoy me. Do you really not see this? Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 22:04, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately for you, Captain, annoying other users isn't a blockable offense unless the editor is editing disruptively. Collaborative editing involves a lot of annoyances because we need to work with other editors with whom we might strongly disagree. You need to find a way to work with others as you can't come to ANI every time an editor frustrates you. If you do this, you will be seen as disruptive and might face sanctions.

What people here are telling you that whatever you judge to be bad behavior is not considered serious enough to warrant sanctions. And if you refuse to drop the stick, it could cause others to see you as the problem. Editing on Misplaced Pages will become easier once you accept that you might not always get your way. Liz 22:33, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Well obviously. But the point is that in this case it's not simply a case of me not getting my way, but a case of the other editor deliberately misrepresenting my statement to stall time, which should be a sanctionable offence. If you or other wiki admins can't or won't see or admit that is what is happening then obviously there is nothing I can do about that. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 22:39, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

Liz isn't an admin, but she is right. Our goal is build an encyclopedia, not a polite online society. If you can't overlook little things, you aren't going to have a good time here. Admin can't block for every little infraction or we'd have no editors left. No admin either. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:19, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I resemble that remark. Drmies (talk) 04:31, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Popping by to support a boomerang if one is being proposed and to comment that The Captain is also causing problems at Talk:Race (biology) - trying to insert material drawn from an article by a German scientist who supported eugenics, and trying to argue (I think) that animal breeds (mistranslated "races") and human races are, basically the same thing... and being tendentious about it. Montanabw 20:55, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Unacceptable behavior of editor

Hello,

I want to inform you about unacceptable behavior of the editor Croata concerning the articles Bulgars/ Dulo clan.

During the past 3 months (since the beginning of March 2015) he was constantly removing all my edits on these articles stating that they were "vandalism", "unrelated info", "false positive edits", "fringe theories edits" or simply calling them POV. He denies the reliability of obviously excellent sources as Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank stating that they represent minority point of view. For example on 19 June 2015‎ he removed my edit on the article Bulgars where I have added information about the origin of Utigurs, a major Bulgar tribe, stating that the edit is "false positive" and "unrelated info". On 6 June 2015‎ I have warned him that in his version of the article Dulo clan, his conclusion "Bulgars belonged to the group of Turkic peoples" is not supported by the cited four books - nowhere on the cited pages there is such a conclusion. He ignored my warning and reverted the article 6 times after that without bothering to correct this sentence or to remove it. On the talk page of Dulo clan article I have suggested many ways how to improve the article, for example :

• I have suggested to move the information about the historical rulers of the clan from the section "Research History" to the article's intro where this information should be placed because it is well documented
• I have suggested to removed the information that early rulers of the clan were claiming Attilid descend from the article's intro to "Research History" or to restate it in the form that some historians think they had such a descend. It is not known if they were claiming this.
• I have suggested to improve the article Bulgars by replacing the very first sentence "... semi-nomadic warrior tribes of Turkic extraction" with more accurate statement " The three major tribes were Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs, whose origin is still unidentified"

None of these suggestions (and many more) were accepted. The editor Croata doesn't accept any independent additions, he considers his versions of the articles to be final and set in stone. Also he tends to place disproportionate importance of the Turkic theory about the origin of Bulgars and Dulo clan and doesn't accept other theories about their origin to be added to the articles. Such a behavior is unacceptable and it does not help the readers of these articles.

PavelStaykov (talk) 01:50, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've reformatted. You didn't notify Crovata, and misspelled his name. The very top of this page clearly states you must do this. I have gone ahead and done so. Now to look at the merits.... Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:04, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
• This is going to take longer than I have to give tonight, but the other stuff still needed doing. User:Bbb23 is familiar with Crovata, so I would draw his attention here. Looking briefly, it seems more of a content dispute, but there may be some behavioral issues by one or both, so I will leave to B and others to determine. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 02:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• No promises, but I'll try to look at this tomorrow.--Bbb23 (talk) 04:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I experience technical problems and don't know if will manage to actively follow the discussion. However, I neither have time to waste discussing the same thing over and over and over again. The violation of WP:NPOV principles, lack of neutrality and knowledge of the editor PavelStaykov, and in general about the topic and dispute, you can read at his talk page, Bulgars Talk and Dulo clan Talk. The scholars Zuev and Pulleyblank were only lately introduced, not months ago, and their minor claims have no relation to Bulgars. It is related with Utigurs and their article. The Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs were not Bulgar tribes, they were different tribes who in periods were part of Bulgar confederation, but whose names etymologically clearly show Turkic origin. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs and Onogurs areas badly written, and currently work on them. He never answered which "four books", and I ask him again to respond. A simple read of the Bulgars article is enough to dismiss his claims, and often personal original research (which he calls "independent"). The Turkic theory is the only theory with verified evidence, and weight per NPOV. It is generally considered and discussed, and does not dismiss other ethnogenetic and cultural influence like other theories, Indo-European or Iranian, which do not have substantial amount of sources, reliability or confirmation for such claims. Not to mention how are ideologically motivated by the Bulgarian scholars during the anti-Turkish sentiment in Bulgaria, considered by unreliable "scholars" (PavelStaykov cited a scholar who is not educated in the historiography or linguistics, but medicine) and a minority. Such a fringe theory also has an article - Kingdom of Balhara.

The editor PavelStaykov denies and called modern scholarship considerations as junk and part of "some Russian propaganda". As far the points go, 1. The list of rulers follows the list of the Nominalia of the Bulgarian khans and their names and meaning are discussed in the section 2. There is no need for this, and just for record, previously in March and April he strongly opposed the reshaping of the statement as personally considered it was Attila itself and denied scholars general consideration 3. It is generally accepted they were most prominently of Turkic extraction (with some admixture of Hunnic, Iranian and other Indo-European origin and influence).--Crovata (talk) 12:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not going to get embroiled in a content dispute about which I know next to nothing. Even if I did, the only issue here for me is conduct. I've blocked User:PavelStaykov twice for edit-warring at Dulo Clan, the first time for 48 hours and the second for one week. When I blocked him the second time, I also warned User:Crovata about his conduct. There's been no reverts at that article since June 11. There has been one addition (I assume it's brand new but didn't check) at Bulgars by PavelStaykov and one revert by Crovata on June 19. The two editors have to use some sort of dispute resolution to resolve their content issues. As for their conduct, if I see either editor revert at either article, that editor risks being blocked, and a revert back after a block may also be met with a block. Both of them should stay away from both articles.--Bbb23 (talk) 15:39, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
  • @Bbb23: The problem with the whole issue is that there's no constructive content dispute for Misplaced Pages, yet the fringe theories and personal POV/OR which are forced to be included in the articles which have nothing to do with - the violation of NPOV. I advise all involved to read all three linked talk pages to understand the situation. I cannot agree with the last statement, why someone who defended the articles from unconstructive edits, and rewrote the articles according modern scholarship, must stay away? Since 14 May personally rewrote the Bulgars article and done major constructive edits, and as currently is in the process of GOCE review for GAN review, and there few cites additionally for inclusion, it seeks if not edit activity at least my attention.--Crovata (talk) 16:19, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
    • If it's as clear-cut as you state, then the dispute resolution should be straightforward. In the interim, my warning stands.--Bbb23 (talk) 16:26, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
      • @Bbb23: Sincerely, I simply do not know which of the claims, articles and talk pages above should take for dispute resolution. They all were answered here, talk pages time ago, and there probably even more he seeks for. I need your advice, and personal inclusion of PavelStaykov for dispute resolution as he began those disputes. He needs to decide what claims should be brought to the dispute resolution noticeboard. I don't want any kind of disapproval from his side if missed to mention some of his claims we dispute. @PavelStaykov: Respond.--Crovata (talk) 17:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

First, I want to answer Crovata's accusation that I have "aversion for the term "Turks"" - this is not true. I am not obliged to share such personal information here, but I will do it. I grew up in small town in southern Bulgaria ( Haskovo ) which is of mixed population - Bulgarians and Turks. One of my best friends during my childhood was a Turk. I live in Sofia now and one of my friends is also Turk, and I value his friendship more than that of many of my Bulgarian friends. So, I don't have "aversion for the term "Turks", nor I have aversion for Turkic people or their culture. What I want is simply these 2 articles to be written in the best possible way. Also before I start the discussion, I want to make some general remarks. It is a common misbelief that Bulgars are extinct, or that they merged with Slavic people 7-10 centuries AD thus forming contemporary Bulgarians. This is not true. Even now three type of faces can clearly be seen on the streets of Bulgaria, all of them of obvious Indo-European origin, but definitely distinct. It is especially striking if someone comes from abroad. The approximate ratio is 1:1:1. I can take photos and upload them to the Bulgar's article. My explanation is that the proposed by scholars merging of Bulgars, Slavs and Thracian's continues even today - after all Bulgaria was a rural country up to 1950-1960 and marriages happened inside small rural communities. One of my friends took genetic tests and he was told that he is of Thracian origin. Personally I don't need to do this to know that I am of Slavic origin - it's enough to look at myself in the mirror.

About the article Bulgars. 1. The very first sentence in its current version states that Bulgars were "tribes of Turkic extraction". This is not known for sure - may be they were, may be not. What is known for sure is that they were nomads. If they were Turks, of Turkic extraction, Iranian, or Indo-European tribes influenced by Turkic and Iranian people is still debated among scholars. Using euphemistic phrases as "Turkic extraction" is not a constructive edit, it is an obfuscation of the truth. It is much better to state that their origin is still unidentified and to enumerate different Bulgar tribes: Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs and so on. Crovata's opinion that these tribes were not Bulgars is ridiculous - just type these words in Google and read. Not to mention numerous books and textbooks where this is explained.

2. My second point is to state in the article intro that some of the Bulgar tribes participated in the union of the Huns - this is well documented. Most Roman, Greeks and Byzantines sources used the words Huns and Bulgars indiscriminately to describe the same people. Actually many scholars equate Bulgars and the (European) Huns. This can be done in the 3rd sentence of the article. This will help the reader to understand better the origin of the Bulgars. Stating that they envelop " other ethnic groups and cultural influences, such as Hunnic..." is not accurate. Huns were not ethnic group, they were conglomeration of different tribes, many of them Bulgars.

3. In the section "Etymology and origin" I want to include the identification made by Yury Zuev and Edwin G. Pulleyblank that Utigurs were Yuezhi tribe. Both scholars are renowned and the identification is undisputable. Also it is a base for research among many modern Bulgarian scholars as Pr. A. Stamatov, Dr. P. Tsvetkov, Dr. G. Voinikov and others.

4. Section "History" - the subtitle is Turkic migration. This is misleading and I would suggest to be removed. If Crovata is making such implications, probably he could explain exactly which Turkic tribes practiced artificial cranial deformation? "Further information: Turkic migration and Huns" - this is OK. The second sentence is controversial. What would mean "Interaction with the Hunnic tribes, causing the migration..." if the Bulgars were Huns themselves, to interact with whom? Also the cited source is not available online.

5. Section " History", cited source 40c, pages 127-128 - does not contain such information. Which line ?

6. Section ethnicity, the 3rd paragraph - it starts with "When the Turkic tribes began to enter into the Pontic–Caspian steppe...as early as the 2nd century AD" is also misleading. It is generally considered that Turkic migration started much later and that the tribes in question are of unknown origin, they spoke language similar to proto - Turkic. May be here we could include the explanation given by Zuev that these tribes were actually Wusuns?

7. Section " Anthropology and Genetics" emphasizes too much on the origin of the Turks - paragraphs 2 and 3. What is the point here ? This article is not about the origin of the Turks.

8. Bulgars practiced Artificial Cranial Deformation and this is stated in the article, but I think the discussion here could be extended, it is well known that European Huns practiced artificial cranial deformation and they can be traced (using this) to North China.

9. I want to include research paper (by Voinikov) that modern Bulgarian language contains a lot of Tocharian words. It is published in Bulgarian language but with Google translate it can be read by everyone.

93.152.143.113 (talk) 03:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Ok, it may be taken into account that through IP 93.152.143.113 wrote the same person as the one through PavelStaykov. The info in the intro about personal life (and previously where allegedly confirmed that Pavel Staykov is the personal name, and by education physicist) is useless and irrelevant for the whole discussion. The all 9 points were already discussed, and properly dismissed as are against the general scholarship(!), actually any relevant scholar consideration. This points are based on extreme and specially chosed sources and very minor considerations. They just confirm the lack of knowledge, will to understand, and disregard of general scholarship and evidence. The articles of Utigurs, Kutrigurs, Onogurs are currently being rewrote by me and his deny of their separate identity (which is something generally accepted!) is incredibly delusional and further discreditable. That's typical example of original research and personal POV violating NPOV. Even worse, he claims two different things, that the Utigurs point 1. were a Bulgar tribe, while in point 3. were a Yuezhi tribe. He doen't have basic knowledge about the Utigurs and Kutrigurs and how they existed in the vicinity of the Bulgars simultaneously, and participated in the battles and politics of Eastern Roman Empire. The Bulgars were not Huns, they were not equated at all, yet the name "Hun" became a general term or exonym for nomadic intruders from the East. This consideration, also in the point 4, is so wrong it's just ridiculous that it needs to be discussed. The scholar Dr. G. Voinikov revolutionary considerations (and the fringe Indo-European-Yuezhi theory) were not cited by any prominent scholar because he is an independent amateur scholar who is not at all educated in the field of linguistics or history - he finished medicine. No strange that no academic scholar cites his research. The personal POV and OR is based upon two reliable scholars (but whose considerations have nothing to do with Bulgars, but Utigurs, and claiming that the "identification is undisputable" is something generally not accepted!) and unreliable scholars. Replying to all the points for the XY time would be too long and waste of my time. @Dennis Brown:@Bbb23: Please give me advice how to properly write the dispute resolution, and for ever to end this unconstructive discussion. Should I cite every claim word by word? This 9 points deal with the article of the Bulgars, but not of the Dulo clan (where most of his activity was involved, and first comment dealt with).--Crovata (talk) 23:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

@Crovata: I didn't read the wall of text by the other party. I would forget about what the other user says. Their part in the dispute resolution is to set forth their own reasons for the content of the two articles. You, @Crovata, should decide what you disagree with (not set forth here) but what you disagree with in the two articles and explain why. @PavelStaykov: It is not a good idea to edit anywhere on Misplaced Pages without logging in to your account.--Bbb23 (talk) 23:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Moderator intervention needed

Both me and User:Doug Weller have left notes on User:Artin Mehraban's page as well as through edit summaries, that he should stop creating self-formulated maps and making edits on articles that clearly violate WP:OR. Both me and Doug left him a message yesterday asking this again, and yet, even though promising to cease the Wiki-policy violating activities, he still continues to do so. As of just a few minutes ago, he created this; another nonsensical pseudo-historical article about an alleged empire that has never existed, nor any scholar has ever mentioned. I mean, I get that he's (kinda) interested in history and stuff, but he's violating WP:OR over and over now with these self-created maps, articles, etc. ] This is an encyclopedia I believe, not a fairy tale's forum where we create and make up stuff that we want to believe.

Anyway, honestly I think it's been kinda enough right now as it has gone way out of hand, and we have shown enough willingness in order to make him stop doing this (and most importantly to make him understand why his edits are incorrect) and though I left Doug himself a message some minutes ago prior to writing here so that he could look at it himself, Artin Mehraban just continued creating more of those OR articles/maps/pictures (as I've demonstrated above). Thus, in order to have this stopped before it gets even worse, I brought it here.

- LouisAragon (talk) 05:58, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I'll get back to this later today, but there is a problem with this editor. I've given him warnings, advice, suggested a mentor, etc. but to no avail. As have others, eg User:WikiDan61 and User:Dr.K.. A number of his uploaded images have been deleted as copyvio. I see he hasn't been notified, I'll do that now. Doug Weller (talk) 07:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I put File:Conquests of Azad Khan Afghan.png up for deletion because it was particularly ill-defined, with no geographic identification at all. I think all of Artin Mehraban's map creations should be looked over, especially by editors with some background in map creation and use along with knowledge of correct map sourcing. Liz 13:34, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I just got Doug's ping. I recently encountered this editor when s/he tried to replace by edit-warring this detailed map of Macedon by this green-shadow map without any any detail. I knew right at that time that we had a problem. When Doug Weller asked me some time ago if an ANI report should be opened about this user I suggested that perhaps he should be given another chance and also be considered for mentorship. I see that the additional chance has been given but without yielding a better result. I have not investigated the extent of the disruption caused by this user but admin intervention may be required, especially since the problems with this editor continue. Δρ.Κ.  16:12, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I understand I should no at OR maps or images and I will be sure to have academic sources. I just have interest in these articles and topics and I'm sorry Artin Mehraban (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Artin Mehraban, it's been a never ending cycle. We've been asking you over and over not to do so, and you repetitively state that you won't do it anymore. - LouisAragon (talk) 21:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I will no longer make my own images, and if i do upload images they will either be edits on an already existing image or an image not created by me, but created somewhere on the internet. I beleive thats what your asking me to do. But many times you revert my edits when i add a different portrait to a page. An example is when i added a different portrait of shah abbas on the shah abbas I article. There were MANY painters, miniaturists and etc who made various different portraits of shah abbas. I see no reason for that edit to be reverted. Both images were accurate and from that era. And the chances of anyone discussing that is slim, since the only person watchng that article is user: louisAragon who reverted my edits. Lets discuss in good faith, which image should be used, since both are accurate and from that era. Though i realize wikipedia isnt about opinion, ill say it anyway, the colouring reflects persian miniaturist, painting styles and so it should be used.

Artin Mehraban (talk) 17:30, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Artin, please read Misplaced Pages:File copyright tags. Just because you can copy an image from another website doesn't mean that it can be used on Misplaced Pages. You have to provide a source for where the image came from, it must be free to use because you own it, created it, it is the public domain or the creator has released the right to use the image to Misplaced Pages. Do not add new files to Misplaced Pages that do not satisfy Misplaced Pages's copyright guidelines. If you need assistance, go to Misplaced Pages:Copyright assistance. Liz 22:46, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

See File:Picture of Karim Hakimi.png uploaded 23:35, 20 June 2015‎, which the editor says is from Pinterest. There he says it's his own photo and writes "I Artin Mehraban allow wikipedia to reuse this image which i own on pinterest under the CC-BY-SA". However, it appears at which was the source of the copyvio in Artin Mehraban's original version of Karim Hakim . Artin Mehraban, can you explain this? Doug Weller (talk) 05:50, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Image is most probably a copyvio. It is a cropped version of this original from the Canadian Diversity magazine and appearing in this article of the magazine about 2013 award-recipients. Δρ.Κ.  16:24, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Deleted as an unambiguous copyright violation.—Kww(talk) 16:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Kww. Δρ.Κ.  16:31, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• I deleted File talk:Coloured portrait of shah Abbas i of the safavid dynasty.png as being a copyvio of http://images.fineartamerica.com/images-medium-large/shah-abbas-i-1557-1628-granger.jpg. He just doesn't understand that because he uploaded it to pinterest, he still doesn't "own" it. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:35, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Simple fix would be to to formulate a ban on uploading images of any sort for a minimum 6 months or perhaps indefinitely. At the end of 6 months they can appeal the upload ban. Blackmane (talk) 03:22, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, after having communicated with the respective user for quite some time now, I don't think just a ban on uploading topics will work, as there's a fundamental lack in understanding why his overall Wiki activities are blatantly problematic. Despite multiple appeals and messages by both me and Doug, this behaviour continues. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:36, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Indef block, as first block, for persistent copyvio is another option. Blackmane (talk) 02:38, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Another load of hoaxed stuff from him that needs to be speedily deleted asap (once again) that he just created some mins ago . Any awake moderator here that can block this guy at last?........ - LouisAragon (talk) 05:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

That's a new article he created, Azad empire - all the sources for an "Azad empire" are to science fiction sites or books. Looking at his source for the map he created, one page on that website says " He sat on the throne of the Safavid Empire and proclaimed himself as the king of Persia in 1751 and in 1754 A.D.." Nothing about an Azad empire. Note that his footnote for the map says "this website was created by NajI'm AzadzoI. Since he is from the University of Massachusetts, this website is accurate and scholary source". That he's from UMass seems correct, but he's an architect, not a historian. Doug Weller (talk) 07:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

That whole article and every map in it needs to be speedy deleted as it's extreme hoax. We can't let such stuff stay on here for a single moment. This guy has been a nuisance from the start for everyone, and he makes such maps/articles/edits everyday. I tried my best with him, but he just doesn't understand. He's clearly not here to build an encyclopedia, other than making fairy tales and setting a new record for copyvio/OR violations in such a short time. The fact that numerous users and moderators have numerously asked him to stop yet by his feigned ignorance he has continued ever since, confirms this even more. I mean, like, he does this stuff everyday multiple times, but still he hasn't been blocked or indeffed. It's not like he never received words or warnings about it....(to put it *ahem* polite) He has a long repertoire already for having such behaviour, basically since day 1. We gave him many so many chances. Doug, your words regarding his most recent violations confirm this even more. - LouisAragon (talk) 09:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Edit; another one - ...Why won't anyone stop this seriously? He's continuously creating non-existing "dynasties", "empires" and "maps" while using science fiction sites/blogs/pinterest links in order to create articles here about matters that never existed. How much more copy-vio, OR and WP:NOTHERE violations does one want to see before making a halt to this menace? - LouisAragon (talk) 10:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Indefinitely blocked. I'm not sure if we're being trolled or if this is a case of CIR but either way far too much time is being spent cleaning up after this user who seems to have no intention of stopping. Sam Walton (talk) 11:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Mafia Capitale

This article has been deleted twice in the last few days, once for BPL violation and once for copyright violation and now Manox81 (talk · contribs) has recreated it. Now it is up for AfD. This same article was deleted on the Italian Misplaced Pages]. Please look in to this. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 09:07, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

If the reasons for speedy deletion have been avoided in the current version (and I see no BLP or copyright concerns in it now), then AfD seems like the correct route to me and I don't see that it has anything to do with admin at this stage. Mr Potto (talk) 11:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, there might be a copyright problem, depending on http://wikipedia.moesalih.com/Mafia_Capitale - is that anything to do with Misplaced Pages? Is it a mirror? But that still seems to me to be within the remit of the usual deletion processes and nothing that needs ANI attention. Mr Potto (talk) 11:25, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

That page is a wikipedia mirror. VernoWhitney (talk) 12:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. I've just paraphrased anyway, but I think that puts the copyvio issue to bed. Mr Potto (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for taking the time. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 18:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Personal Attack

I believe I am being attacked by another editor User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi, they seem to not be assuming good faith with my edits. Also they have made an accusation of sockpuppeting here which has no ground, and also a recent personal attack here. The user was warned by JMHamo, here being told that the message left on my talk page could constitute harassment. And finally they have previously served a block for personal attacks here. I don't usually report other users but I do if I feel threatened or I believe I am the target of harassment. I did report a user User:Theroadislong recently but I withdrew it as I realised he was only acting in good faith reverting some of my edits. --TeaLover1996  12:57, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Somebody should close Fortunata down ,.188.220.96.85 (talk) 13:27, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Sockpuppet accusations should take place at WP:SPI only, nowhere else. I have placed a note on the user's talk page. -- Diannaa (talk) 14:09, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry Diannaa, but I disagree with your statement, given that you've left no room for exceptions. There's often no need to add WP:DUCK reports to the frequently-backlogged SPI board. A post here or on a talk page of an admin familiar with the situation will get things resolved faster. --NeilN 15:51, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

True dat. I guess I was trying to make it crystal clear for the user where to take SPI matters. Apologies -- Diannaa (talk) 15:52, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Advocating a post

on the talk page of an admin familiar with the situation

is just a way of trying to sneak in conviction without notice or trial. That has never been endorsed by the community and I hope it never will be. 87.115.85.168 (talk) 16:00, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

There's no legal system on Misplaced Pages. And, as I'm sure you're aware (whoever you are), all admin actions are public and can be reviewed. --NeilN 16:25, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

It may not be a legal system, but Newyorkbrad and the others set it up to be as close as possible. You're suggesting the police can file a complaint in the magistrates' court and then appear at a trial which the accused knows nothing about - until, that is, they turn up at his house to haul him off to jail. Did you bother to ping Newyorkbrad before making your claim or is it just something which you personally advocate? 87.115.85.168 (talk) 16:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

And who are you again? Perhaps you're someone who might benefit from rememebering that simply because IPs can edit doesn't mean that people with accounts can use IPs to avoid scrutiny by masking their identities, which is a violation of WP:SOCK. BMK (talk) 18:33, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

User: Stemoc

After continually being reverted by this user, I've decided that it would be best to take this to the Administrator noticeboard. Over the past several months, the user Stemoc has continually reverted my edits, for the sole reason of being disruptive. I think their latest statement made in an edit summary clearly states that they do not wish to act in a civil manner, and simply wish to violate Misplaced Pages policy outlined at WP:HOUNDING. The edit summary stated "UNDO long-term cross wiki vandal POV pusher whop uses the wiki for "self promotion"." This has continually been his reason, no matter the situation, in this case it was the addition of a different photo on the Donald Trump article which is non-controversial. (Note: There was a previous discussion at 3RR where it was agreed that I would not add photos that have already been uploaded for the sole reason of having my name in the title of the image, which I have ceased from doing. I have not broken this warning so that should not be part of this discussion.) But regardless, the user still seems to want to continue to revert my edits across several different projects, and was told to stop previously.

In a calm, measured response to a comment I left on his talk page, part of his response was to "stop acting like a pompous cry baby.." His edit summary here also indicates his unwillingness to act in a civil manner, and simply to be disruptive and revert edits without discussion. Quoting directly from WP:Wikihounding, "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." As recent as a few moments ago, the user began participating in a discussion I created in order to gain a consensus on which image would be best at Jeb Bush. The user then personally attacked me stating "its Not a Communist regime either so we won't keep using your poor images all the time" to a comment I left in a related section where people began voting, despite policy that states Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. In that discussion, it was found that a different image was best to use, and I did not revert or try to disrupt that decision.

The user has had similar complaints left on his talk page, after he told another user to "get glasses" when trying to add a photo he uploaded in this instance. Here is part of the exchange...

If that isn't a case against WP:Civility then I don't know what is. He has been warned for his uncivil behavior several times already, and yet they just ignore it and begin writing in uppercase and attempting shame others from editing. It also seems that he is doing the same thing that he accuses me of, as he is adding his own uploaded images to articles, without any sort of discussion, whether controversial or not, and most of the time without a reason given in his edit summary. I highly suggest reviewing his edit history, and his talk page.

Other violations that I believe he has made are outlined at WP:Disruptive editing, in response to this comment after I reverted him for reverting me because I made the edit, "Either follow our policies or LEAVE". That statement alone violates #6, which states "Campaign to drive away productive contributors: act counter to policies and guidelines such as Misplaced Pages:Civility, Misplaced Pages:No personal attacks, Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles." I would also argue he is acting in a tendentious manner based on his recent edits alone.

Again, if this isn't a case of someone overstepping the line of civility, engaging in disruptive editing, campaigning to drive away productive contributors, and intentionally hounding someone's specific edits, then I don't know what is.

Here are links to edits where the user has reverted me in a hounding manner.

Calibrador (talk) 13:20, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Expect an accusational response from the user being reported saying that I'm adding my own photos as self promotion. This is not the case, and is not a violation of any policy anyway. As of recent, I have made sure to include clear edit summaries stating why I am changing a specific image, and created discussions in order to come to a consensus on which image would be preferred. Stemoc is simply acting in a disruptive manner no matter what discussion takes place, and no matter what my edit summary reasoning was for changing a specific image. Calibrador (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Before I begin, please remember that User:Calibrador was previously known as Gage Skidmore and he changed his name yesterday just so that he can knowingly continue to enforce his images into articles without setting off any alarm bells..Infact, just before changing his name, his last few edits involved enforcing his own images into articles and right after usurpation, he continues to do the same. The use has over the years continually used wikipedia for WP:SELFPROMOTION to an extent of removing better images for his own poor ones just so that he can use wikipedia to promote himself financially. The Quote he linked above was to another editor that is available on my talk page and it has already been solved "amicably" but he has linked it here trying to make people think that my comment was targeted at him..... I'm not in the habit of REMOVING other people's comments about him removing other images and replacing them with his.. He even threatened me on Wikimedia Commons to not upload his images from flickr which are under a free licence and as per Commons policy can be uploaded for use on wikipedia...The user has a long history of violation WP:COI and just by going through the users contribution history here, it will all be made clear. I'm NOT Hounding the user as he claims, I just found his "vandalism" unbearable and decided to take action by reverting them as he refuses to follow policies in regards to discussing his changes. Its either HIS images be USED on those articles or NO IMAGES and he will blatantly revert anyone else who decides to use a less controversial or better image...WP:CIVIL goes both ways and if admins refuse to warn and discipline this user who has previously been reported here in May, then this will be ongoing. The user is abusing our Terms of Use as was discussed in May on my talk page. He may not be a paid editor but he is using Misplaced Pages for Financial gain and that is against one of our policies as photographers get paid for the use of their images as tou can see here and quote

If wikimedia blatantly allows someone to use the site to serve their personal monetary gain then this is not a place I want to be...I have been fighting Spammers and vandals across wikimedia since 2007 and users like him are the worst as they can usually get away with it..........oh and ofcourse you are Gage, do NOT deny it cause whats worse than violators are those that blatantly lie about it--Stemoc 13:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Please do not attempt to destroy my character, you are getting very close to libel with your false accusations. I have never made a penny from my involvement with Misplaced Pages. Your response also screams a great level of paranoia. Calibrador (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

False accusation?, you accuse me of WP:HOUNDing you and when i point out that you are using WIKIPEDIA for your own personal MONETARY gain, I'm destroying your character?. You Intentionally enforce your images so that you can tell your "clients" about you work using Misplaced Pages as a reference for your OWN personal and monetary gain and when users remove your pics and replace or update it with one that is BETTER, you revert them cause you want ONLY your images with you name at the END of every image name because you are a humanitarian and you love wikipedia and you are helping the wiki out of the goodness of your heart?, is thats what you are telling me?....Never made a a penny, who do you think uses all the images that get added to wikipedia?, newsites and other websites and I won't be surprised if they pay you for the use of the images, oh and lets not forget, free publicity..Just admit it and stop lying please....--Stemoc 14:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

None of what you just wrote is true, I suggest you just stop please. Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Also I'd suggest acting more Civil instead of using Caps lock to imply shouting on the administrator noticeboard. Calibrador (talk) 14:22, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Stemoc, it's not clear to me how Calibrador is financially benefiting from Misplaced Pages. You link to his Flickr bio it doesn't refer to Misplaced Pages at all. And then you reference an article where not only is Misplaced Pages not mentioned but it states he posts all of his photos to Flickr under a Creative Commons license, making them available free of charge as long as he’s credited. and only charges for-profit publications for his work.

I can see how you could make an argument that Calibrador prefers using photos he has taken over other photos but you haven't presented evidence that he is financially benefiting from donating his photos to Misplaced Pages. Liz 14:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

That is how publicity works Liz, let put it this way, his images get noticed, he gets called up by someone famous and they ask him to do a 'photoshoot" for which he gets paid and at the same time he has to insure he gets noticed, Flickr is now ranked 130 odd but Misplaced Pages is STILL one of the top 10 websites in the world, so where are you more likely to get noticed?..Previously, when adding image a to articles, he used to add his name into the captions in infoboxes as well..just search through his edits in 2014 and you will find it which is how i actually noticed him in the first place..--Stemoc 15:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I never did that, and I have never booked a photo shoot with anyone. How many times do you have to be told to stop making false accusations? Calibrador (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I have mentioned it on my talk page many times that i use Caps and Bold for "emphasis" only on certain words, I'm not "Shouting"..and also why would you even accept what i said is fact because if it is , and I know it is, it means you have been violating our policies for years and have been getting away with it and you got your named changed just so that its not directly seen as a WP:COI which it is.Note: I havea shitty internet conenct adn moving to https has MADE IT WORSE so i cannot reply here anymore, i have already had 16 edit conflicts on this thread, please take anything else regarding me to to my talk page..I'm unable to post on pages larger than 150kbs (my net speed on enwiki is about 8kbps)--Stemoc 14:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

You also used caps on your talk page once because someone "needs to get glasses." Calibrador (talk) 14:56, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• A month ago I reported Gage Calibrador at ANEW so I'm not the only one to have an issue although since that report I've simply given up with the image-removal as I knew one way or another I'd end up being blocked, I still believe Gage Calibrador is using the image-titles as a way to promote himself. –Davey2010 14:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• Since that discussion, I have agreed to use edit summaries, discuss, and come to a consensus when changing an image is seen as controversial. Calibrador (talk) 14:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• That's great but the image thing is still an issue - No one would have an issue with your uploads if you just uploaded them as say "X at X.jpg" but surely you can see adding your name on the end of every image you upload does come across as self promotion and people are bound to have an issue with that. –Davey2010 14:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

• I would note that I do not even link to my Flickr when I upload my own photos, like when others upload my images. If anything Stemoc is the one promoting my photos. Calibrador (talk) 14:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm NOT promoting your images, I'm giving you "attribution" which is according to Commons policy regarding image uploads, so this is "attribution" as I have not only uploaded one of your images but given you credit as well as added the image to your private category, there is no need for me to do that but i do it nevertheless cause i go by the rules and follow the policies, you don't...your image uploads are always promotional--Stemoc 15:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

Calibrador, you are adding photos with file names such as "William Lee Golden by Gage Skidmore.jpg". If you are a professional photographer, I think such file names are advertising your work. Many professional do contribute some of their images to WP, and in a sense it may be a form of advertising , because they are attributed in the meta data--but we have always regarded this as not just permissible, but a good incentive to get some high quality images. However, putting your professional identity in the file name does not seem like a good idea. I do not work all that much with images,and I do not know if it is against our rules for images, but I personally think that it certainly should be. If you want to avoid accusations of promotionalism, you might want to go back and rename them. DGG ( talk ) 03:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Let me first say that e might have gone a bit off-track. However, having your name in the file name is not against any policies or guidelines (ot terms for that metter). If I wanted I could name a file "File:X at Y (thank you C0mpany Z for this great event).jpg" and intentionally advertise, but that alone isn't proof of any wrongdoing. (In the Creative Commons terms however there is a clause about "titles of works" and that they should be used. If the creator wishes they be names one way...)
Back to the issue at hand regarding if Cometstyles Stemoc is violating multiple policies on civility, I would say that this is a clear case. Even if the edits are somehow justified, they are HOUNDing in nature. This should not be acceptable. (There should be a clause like this in 3RR regarding reverting over multiple articles...) (t) Josve05a (c) 04:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Its Ok to do that to a few image but that uploader has added more than 8000 images with that byline, just do a simple "by Gage Skidmore" on commons if you don't believe me. This is PROMOTIONAL. When someone adds an article about themselves or add links to their private websites, they are straightaway reverted, warned and in severr cases BLOCKED for spamming..this is one form of spamming..we may have different rules for articles and images but they both have the same outcome...The problem isn't the use of "by Gage Skidmore" tag in all his images, the problem is intentionally replacing other better and current images with his own on MAJOR article to boost his own stand and even without discussion as one user pointed above about the lack of using 'edit summaries'. Josve05, you are aware of my involvement in cross-wiki related spamming and vandalism and there isn't a day where i do NOT delete spamming on the 2 wikis i have adminship on....I see this as "blatant promotional/spamming" and though my involvement on enwikipedia has been limited since i returned (my own choosing), I will NOT turn a blind eye to it cause you may not see it as such but its blatant abuse of our policies....and again, reverting someone who keeps violating our policies does not make me a "Wiki HOUNDER"..I'm reverting what i see as blatant vandalism..the user has even gone to an extent of getting his name changed to make it easier to add his images without anyone pointing fingers..it would be nice if admins did their job as this user has been brought to this board now 3 times over the last 2 months and still has not faced any consequences to this actions...--Stemoc 14:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I think this is a case of "everyone but myself" is at fault, and I'm a "social warrior" for trying to save Misplaced Pages from something that is not against the rules, and I'll keep link WP:Selfpromotion, even though none of what is mentioned on that page applies. Could an admin please weigh in on this situation so that falsehoods aren't spread again? Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

The self promotion policy may see to be only related for articles but it applies to everything on wikimedia, self PROMOTION is self promotion, either your promote yourself, your company, your interests or your stuff, its Promotion and by deliberately removing other people images with yours IS self promotion...Do I need to make this any more clear?..--Stemoc 15:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I would note that Stemoc is also currently reported at 3RR for reverting one of the articles five times within a 24 hour span. They were also warned by an admin for harassment. Calibrador (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

and more lies, I was neither "warned " by an admin (toonlucas22 is not an admin) but it was a mistake on his part as he was not aware of this thread nor the previous identity of Calibrador and on the 3RR one which Gage Skidmore linked above...and also, I have not violated 3RRand nor do I intend too..--Stemoc 15:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I never said I'm an admin. I just came as an uninvolved editor. --TL22 (talk) 16:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

That part was my mistake, I thought he was an admin. I do have to correct the false statement that was made about 3RR, though, as Stemoc reverted an article to their version five times in a row, within (approximately) a 24 hour span. It was just slightly outside the window, but still applies. Calibrador (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Yikes! Bbb23 just brought the hammer down on both Stemoc and Calibrador for 24 hours at WP:ANEW... I'm guessing this one can (and probably should) be closed now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm going to keep this open until Stemoc and Calibrador return from their 24 hour blocks. I'd like to hear some proposals, as there's potentially an issue with Calibrador's behaviour, and in turn there's definitely an issue with Stemoc's behaviour. It would be good to get it sorted out with the minimum of fuss, rather than just closing this thread and having a repeat with either Stemoc or another user raising similar complaints in the next few days and weeks. I'd think the sensible suggestion here would be that Calibrador is either restricted from removing an existing image from a page and replacing it with an image he has taken/uploaded himself unless discussion has taken place prior to the switching of images, and consensus is in favour of the change, or there's a 1RR restriction, so he can make the switch without discussion, but if it's reverted, it needs to be discussed before the edit can be reinstated. If a page lacks an image, then Calibrador can add any image he so wishes. It's important to say at this time that we do appreciate the time and effort he puts into taking and uploading photographs BUT other photographers, both professional and amateur do exactly the same, and in the interests of fairness, we want to see good images from a wide range of different photographers being used on the project, this in turn encourages image contributions from other photographers. Every photographer who takes good images should have an expectation of their images being used by another project and that their images will be chosen fairly, without bias, and on the merit of the photograph and its content, composition and appropriateness for the article. Calibrador's behaviour isn't really allowing that to happen right now. Nick (talk) 09:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• I notice that Calilibrador wrongly attempted to delete the block notice on his talk page while it was still in force, and that when policy was explained to him again reverted the notice anyway, only to be reverted again by Nick. Finally, as soon as the block expired, he scrubbed off the notice a third time. I would argue that this wholesale lack of transparency demonstrates an ongoing and obsessive interest with his image and PR, with past examples documented in the section below. This is a long-term, and current problem with this editor and there is very little contrition in evidence. I suggest the overall pattern indicates a desire to use Misplaced Pages as a platform for his profession as a photographer. Jusdafax 23:30, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It is, he is trying to keep his talk page clean so that paying clients don't ask about his block, anyways thanks for pointing out the previous discussion involving him JustDaFax, maybe I should have pointed this out at the very top of the thread and saved myself a lot of time, the admin in that discussion EdJohnston warned him not to re-offend, and he did....many times actually..I'm tired of this cause I did not come back after retiring just so that I get involved in MORE wikidrama, I have no issue with this, I just do not like POV pushers regardless of who they might be ...I hope an admin comes with a solution soon which will stop this from happening again..--Stemoc 00:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Umm Stemoc I mentioned the report right above so I'm not sure how you missed it , That said even if it was mentioned right up the top it wouldn't made a blind bit of difference unfortunately . –Davey2010 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Say, Davey2010 could you ping those editors mentioned in your report, that had issues with Cali/Gage? They are likely not aware of this ANI complaint that is now in a state of WP:BOOMERANG and may well shed some light on why they had concerns. Thanks. Jusdafax 07:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Jusdafax - That's actually a good idea ... Should've done that sooner as anything's worth a shot tbh, MrX, Spartan7W, Lady Lotus, Dwpaul. –Davey2010 09:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Proposed sanctions for Calilibrador

• Agree, completely, with Nick's suggestion. It seems to be the most sensible and fair solution. I would be more in favour of the 1RR suggestion; it's not prohibitively restrictive (and doesn't discourage further contributions), but it reigns in any excessive promotional behaviour and forces him to seek consensus with other editors if they take issue with his revisions. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• Indef block for Calibrador - Quinto, that type of sanction is only effective if Cali/Gage sees the continuing errors of his ways, and acts on them. He's been warned repeatedly to no avail, even reverting the block message on his Talk page when warned not to. Stemoc is likely right, Cali/Gage has deep reasons for his Talk page scrubbage. I say indef the character, at least until we get a serious commitment to reform that he can be held to. He's been gaming the system here for too long and shows no intention of stopping. Jusdafax 01:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• Indef Calibrador - I'm probably not going to be liked for this but the editor has caused enough problems and I think the 1RR won't solve anything at all, We could go down the 1RR route but he'd end up being reported at ANEW and then it'll be this discussion all over again and he'd end up being blocked - Once unblocked we'll be doing it all over again. Indef seems a better and wiser idea IMHO. –Davey2010 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• Agree -- In complete agreement with Nick here. The 1RR proposal for Calibrador makes a lot of sense. However if that doesn't work an indef seems like the only other option. -- Shudde 05:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• Oppose Stemoc is hounding Calilibrador and is seriously refusing to drop the stick. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 16:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• I can understand 1RR and renaming of the files to remove his name (per DGG's comment), but before this last Bbb23 block for edit warring, he's never been blocked, and he has over 25,000 edits behind him. Indef blocking is excessive at this stage. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Current and past problems with Calibrador, formerly Gage Skidmore: suggest extending current BOOMERANG with indef block

Good double block, and I share Nick's concerns. By the way, isn't this diff above in this very ANI complaint (!) using "very close to libel" as an implied legal threat in violation of WP:LEGAL, as well the use of the term "paranoia" an attack on the mental condition of the editor Cali/Gage has brought to this board? If so, wouldn't a continued block of C/G be protective in nature?

In any case, I've had some troubling issues with Cali/Gage Skidmore at the L.A. Reid article. In brief, he lies, distorts, ignores and in general does whatever needful to get what he wants. My involvement began in 2012 when I cordially welcomed him to the page while expressing concerns about his captioning. He gave no reply.

In August 2013, he repeatedly inserts his own photography as the infobox photo and refuses to reply on his Talk page or on the article Talk page when I attempted again to discuss. When challenged, he lied in his edit summary saying, as clearly shown in this diff that I had reverted him without explaining, which the diff shows my edit summary had, and that I was in violation of WP:OWN, when in fact I had repeatedly asked for Cali/Gage to discuss the matter.

I also noticed others had similar issues and Cali/Gage failed to respond to them either. Finally in disgust I walked away from what I felt was an unpleasant and manipulative editing experience. And this editor has a serious set of issues, as noted above, and in his warning at AN just last month, also as noted above. He's a fine photographer, but we can do without his hostile gamesmanship and relentless self-promotion, in my view. Jusdafax 12:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment The use of "very close to libel" once probably shouldn't be construed as a legal threat per WP:LEGAL. I don't really see enough diffs to support this strong of an action. I started looking through some of his photos and they are quite good. Personally, I think it would be a shame to loose his future contributions. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• Reply - Not to go all Wikilawyer on you but the pertinent paragraph in that policy: It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as legal threats against them or against Misplaced Pages, even if the comments are not intended in that fashion. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. To avoid this frequent misunderstanding, use less charged wording (such as “That statement about me is not true and I hope it will be corrected for the following reasons...”) to avoid the perception that you are threatening legal action for defamation. As for photographers, he's good but not good enough to allow his brinksmanship and outright bad faith editing to continue, in my view. Jusdafax 06:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment I don't think you are Wikilawyering at all. I just think his phrase "very close to libel" is not quite the same as saying it was "libelous" nor did he do it repeatedly. I think before an indef block is decided, there should be more discussion about whether adding his name to the end of file names is a serious issue. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Darn it - that's not the only issue, as I demonstrate in this section just above. He's been abusing the place for years. You're right, the word "repeatedly" is in the policy too. But, now that he's unblocked, what does he do? Wipes his Talk page clean, and ignores the issues raised here. He does not apologize, does not comment, just up and vanishes. You OK with that? Why? Because he takes good pictures? Jusdafax 06:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I don't disagree with you that there are serious issues. I just did Google search in images for "Gage Skidmore" and it returns pages of his photos. So, maybe 1RR or 0RR would be a better starting point for now? --I am One of Many (talk) 07:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I think the first thing we all need to agree to is to get him to talk. He has a well-established history of avoiding discussion. That has to stop. Indef him, he's forced to face the music on his pristine talk page. He can answer questions there, express contrition and understanding of our policies, etc. Seriously, he must not be given a slap on the wrist and turned loose again on the project. Enough is enough. Jusdafax 07:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Calibrador response

If you look at my more recent edits, aside from accidentally reverting too many times on one article without knowing (trust me, it was my mistake), I have begun using edit summaries, tried to seek consensus, and mostly tried to avoid conflict. Stemoc reverted several different edits over several different pages within a short span of time simply for the fact that he believes I am somehow a COI violator. What should I really have done differently? I tried to include discussion, and a clear edit summary at every opportunity.

I sincerely apologize for my past indiscretions, I have seen the error of ways in the past about not discussing changes seen as controversial. I don't need to be punished in order to see that, I see it clearly already. Also, I did not disappear, and inviting everyone that has had something bad to say about me with no one on the other side to defend me is a little biased.

The main issue that was at heart here that was underblown because Stemoc enjoys making a lot of noise, and crying COI at every possible chance, is the WP:Wikihounding and uncivil nature of their edits. I have no idea why this has changed into a discussion about me. I've realized my edits in the past were disruptive, and if you look at my edits recently, I made sure to include an edit summary in nearly every contribution, and when necessary, created or participated in discussion. This includes the 3RR that I accidentally got myself into without realizing, I created a discussion on the talk page, and included a reason for making the edit in my edit summary. Unfortunately that was completely ignored by Stemoc in favor of COI accusations, and stating that I'm profiting from Misplaced Pages, which I have not ever. I suggest concentrating on that rather than my past mistakes which I apologize for, and have tried to amend. Calibrador (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Also the thing on my talk page was a mistake, I did not know about that policy, and when it was re-added, I accidentally thought someone re-added it to my talk page just to rub it in or something like that, I didn't look at the history page until after I had made the edit. My mistake once again. As for now, all users have control over their talk page, I think Stemoc is once again assuming bad faith, and made another COI allegation that was unfounded. I don't want to distract from the main issue though that I think has not even been addressed yet, so please discuss Stemoc's offenses. Calibrador (talk) 12:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I actually found Gage creating this article really odd until I did a bit of research and found out that he is somewhat of a "follower" and then i found this..should we now assume Gage is a Paid editor as well cause your edits related to Rand Paul sure looks a lot like public relations work..no? So you use the wiki to push your own agendas, create articles on stuff which again boosts your own career and then you lie about it and then come here and blame me for foiling you? Just claim that you are a political photographer and you are doing all this just to boost your own career and this will all be over...Heck, you even uploaded a new yet poor picture of Donald trump because you didn't like the one I added as it wasn't one of 'yours'...When i first came across you a few years ago, I thought you were a hero for adding HQ pics of celebs and politicians free of charge, boy was I wrong and yet even when multiple users above have claimed that you have been 'gaming' the system, you still deny it and deflect it back to me...Honestly, if all this does not result in a ban or a block for you, I worry that you will do it all over again cause honestly, I do not think you joined wikipedia to help grow the database and you have no intentions whatsoever to follow our policies if they contradict with your ambitions and you have already been on the Edit Warring notice board 3 times over the last 50 days and yet you keep blaming others and refuse to accept that you made mistake after mistake and you even blanked your talk page twice even after 2 admins warned you not to and then you blanked it again the 3rd time just 10 minutes after your block was lifted..Why would anyone not worried about their image do that?...If you somehow walked away from this with just a slap on your hand then this would mean Misplaced Pages has failed...--Stemoc 13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Please stop stalking my edits and crying COI. You've made your same point over and over and over, I'd like an admin opinion on your behavior, not your same opinion. Calibrador (talk) 13:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• No doubt, Stemoc has his own issues. But this is the first I've heard of this Rand Paul article, which opens a new and distressing window on your POV pushing activities, Calibrador. Leaving that aside for the moment, as well as your excuses for blanking the block notices on your talk page repeatedly, which strain credulity since you are saying you didn't read the admin postings at all, we come to the issues I have delineated in detail above. You have posted a lot of words here. Not a single one addresses my specific and documented concerns, and those of others who have further concerns. So is this the best you can do? A "sweat promise" to now, after years, act like most decent Wikipedians, and actually use edit summaries, actually seek consensus? Now that major sanctions are under discussion here, I challenge you to address the charges that have been brought forward. Jusdafax 13:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
  • I thought I addressed them? I admit I should have participated in discussion in the past instead of acting in a cold manner. I hardly even remember the incident you are talking about in regards to the LA Reid article. FWIW, that was not my photo, I did not take it. I was acting like any other editor looking for a better image that was freely available on Flickr, and thought that better illustrated the subject of the article, and thought it was weird that a photo with someone else in the photo that was years older was preferred. I did not look at the article history you linked, I'm just going by memory. Not sure what else I can say, but I'd very much like a response to Stemoc's behavior, as absolutely no one with any authority has had anything to say about their hounding and uncivil behavior that I documented in my original report. Calibrador (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
    • Also, not to make this any sort of issue, but I just looked at the article, and would note that the photo that I added is now the photo that is universally used to illustrate the article across Misplaced Pages projects, and not as a result of me. Someone else did that. I really have no memory of that situation though, it was several years ago. I know I was in the wrong on that though, so I apologize. Calibrador (talk) 14:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The fact that GageSkidmore/Calibrador suddenly changed his username is an indication that his intentions here are likely less than good faith. I really don't see a pressing issue at all with Stemoc, but with GageSkidmore/Calibrador we see a user who is all about self-promotion, and in many regards, whose motivations, i.e. Rand Paul book, etc. are questionable. He likes to ensure his pictures retain precedence over all others; yes, he takes many pictures that are free-use, and that is good. But many of his pictures aren't of article quality and composition, and he many times fights for ones that are the least worth inclusion. There have been problems in the past, and I see them again. He likes making great streams of edits on pages, rather than carefully consolidating his efforts, he continues to put 'by Gage Skidmore' on every single picture uploaded to the commons, obvious self promotion, and his consistent efforts to evade (name change and notification deletes) demonstrate his negative impact here. Spartan7W § 14:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I would just like to note that I stole that idea from David Shankbone, should we bring David Shankbone to AN/I? The stream of edits that I think you are referring to were an effort to try to control my own content. Many (not all) of the photos that were uploaded from my photostream were cropped very poorly, or were not the best one to illustrate an article in my opinion. Most (not all) of my recent photo additions were replacing of my own photos with an alternate crop, or slightly different color, sharpness, etc. Some mistook that as simply uploading the same photo with a different title, but that was not the case, people were adding my photos to Misplaced Pages unknowingly to me, and I wasn't particularly a fan of the way they looked, however minor it was. I don't specifically recall very many instances where a "stream" of edits other than that one instance where it was controversial and someone took notice of it. After I was brought to the noticeboard, I did not continue that behavior. Despite what you may think, I'm capable of learning from my mistakes. As was the case with the recent noticeboard discussion, and is the reason I used an edit summary and created discussions on several recent articles. Unfortunately that was disrupted by Stemoc who reverted several different edits across several different pages, crying COI and that I'm somehow being paid to edit Misplaced Pages, how exactly should I have responded to that other than the way that I did? In the first few instances on one specific page, I reverted with a descriptive edit summary stating my opposition to the revert of my edit, and also included a talk page post. That post was met with a paragraph of COI accusations. In the end, another user, PrairieKid reverted the page back to my version twice more when Stemoc reverted it to their version. The fact that I overstepped 3RR was an accident on my part, I understand that policy very clearly, I would not have overstepped that if I had known the first edit I made also counted as a revert, I was simply re-adding official portraits that were replaced for some reason unknown to me. In regards to the Paul thing, I would simply consider myself an expert on the topic, the book article was added because I was trying to keep it consistent with the previous two book articles. Not sure what you were trying to imply with that, especially since the article is not written in a biased manner. I don't believe I've ever made any sort of NPOV edits to anything Paul related, if I did that was a mistake, but I do not believe I did. The only thing I can think of are stylistic article choices. Calibrador (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

User:TripWire

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User:TripWire keeps insulting, calls me idiot. Calls me stupid. Call me liar. Call me vandal. Tell him stop please. 82.11.33.86 (talk) 13:48, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

To Admins: Please, if you cant stop the IP from hounding me, reverting my every edit, accusing me of being from Pakistan Army atleast 5 times a day (details) then what else do you expect me to do, if not react? In the last instance he came to my page and despite that he has been reported for hounding me and accusing me, he dared to accuse me fir the same thing once again diff?? I m sorry, but if the Admins are not going to stop this IP from accusing me and disrupting my (ach & every) edits, then I will be forced to do it myself - calling him a Liar is the easiest way to do that, what else should I call him? Please stop him! —TripWire  14:01, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

He has accused me for the follwoing 10 times:

• Diff
• Diff.
• Diff
• Diff
• Diff
• Diff
• Diff
• Diff
• diff
• diff

Misplaced Pages wont stop him from accusing, harassing and hounding, but he still has the cheeks to report me instead?—TripWire  14:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

If you write on your userpage that you're on the Pakistani army, and add link to you blog as well, then say on use page of topGun is you blog, and copy info from same blog? Is no accusation to repeat what you say. 82.11.33.86 (talk) 14:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I have run across this ongoing dispute a number of times since some of the articles they're editing are on my watch list, and it's a bit of POV from both sides, but there's also an unsavoury pattern of harassment involved, where a number of registered users are prodding and harassing IP 82.11.33.86, including by reverting perfectly legitimate edits as 'vandalism', and then issue user warnings for it, to make their own edits in the content disputes look as if they're reverting vandalism. Which they no doubt do both to avoid 3RR and to make the IP look bad. So don't blame the IP for everything, as TripWire & Co want to do. Thomas.W 16:50, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Sir, this 'dispute' would end if you or other admins can make this IP to quit hounding me. I dont care if the IP is blocked for editwarring or not because that is debatable and I can be wrong, but when it comes to WP:hounding, lying, accusing and disrupting my very action including discussion at unrelated Talk Pages, I would request Admins to intervene. What surprises me is the fact that dispute all the reports and the explanation, none of the admins have yet once indicated to the IP that he should avoid accusations, even though the admin at WP:COIN, where I was reported by this IP, said it clearly that what the IP claimed is not true. The silence in this case has caused the IP to aggravate his actions and now the situation is so out of control that the IP would jump in every Talk Page I am having a discussion and without giving in recourse to the ongoing discussion will simply ruin my participation by accusing me of the same old lie for which I have reported him already. I wonder how long would you guys allow this to continue?

As for reverting the IPs edits, I have not done it expect when he had reverted my edits first. I have yet to make an edit on any page without talking about it on the respective Talk Page, and once I do, only then I have made a few changes, but the IP has no right to simple Revert it without explaining his actions. I am sorry, but it seems as if this IP has a free pass here.

If only the admins can compare his contribution at Talk Pages Vs the Reverts he had made, things would be much clearer. Thanx —TripWire  20:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Well. Bbb23 blocked the 82 IP already. The diffs given here by 78 are not acceptable--this is a good example of POV-driven commentary. I have no opinion on TripWire, not having looked around that much, but I'll take User:Thomas.W's word for it--Thomas, if there's a case to be made, or if there are individuals or individual diffs that cross a line, please do place warnings on user talk pages and/or let the admins know. Also, TripWire, I'm getting kind of tired of this "admins give editor X a free pass" kind of whining. The moment you start paying a higher subscription fee to edit Misplaced Pages, I'm all yours. Drmies (talk) 22:38, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry for sounding rude, wont happen again. All I wanted to point out was that how would you feel if let's say Mr X barges in every discussion you are involved in, irrespective of the fact that whether Mr X is involved in the discussion or not and EVERY TIME, instead of adding anything meaningful to the discussion, says:

• 'you are an Alien'
• 'I know you are an Alien'
• 'I know you are an Alien coz you once said so'
• 'you are an alien so you dont have any right to edit pages related to aliens'
• 'You are an Aline coz you edit pages related to Alien only'
• etc etc.

If you think this attitude is acceptable here at Misplaced Pages, I will stop complaining.—TripWire  05:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Need IP block

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121.219.253.98 (talk · contribs) made some POV edits and now edit wars about them. He should be blocked for a few days.

IP's initial edits: , , , and . Please also notice the edit summary of the last edit.

Reverts of my undos after warning on talkpage: , , , , .

The edits are related to WP:ARBPIA, but I think there is no need to go there for such obvious violations (especially in view of the time-consuming bureaucracy there). Debresser (talk) 14:12, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

I posted a warning on his talkpage, which he ignores. Debresser (talk) 14:00, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Gosh, normally Debresser and I disagree about everything there is to disagree about, but here I 100% agree with him (This is a first!) : please block this IP vandal ASAP. (Now, I will faint.) Huldra (talk) 17:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Blocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 23:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, User:Dennis Brown, now 107.188.21.240 (talk · contribs)

There is a lot of IP vandalism presently in the IP area; edits like this makes me wonder if it is my old fan? If so, fasten the seat-belts: turbulence ahead, Huldra (talk) 01:43, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

There is always more violence in Israel during the Ramadan (something to add to that article, perhaps), and the same seems to be true on Misplaced Pages. Debresser (talk) 07:13, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Bulk Delete Action by Robert RMS125a AT yahoo.com aka Quis separabit?

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User RMS125a AT yahoo.com (Voluntarily uses email as username) - Robert - (aka Quis separabit?) He is subjectively making bulk-deletes to edits that include encyclopedic, neutral, verifiable facts to an existing page, and threatening editor with Ban and use of 3RR, while he expends no effort to edit or correct the data which offends him. Someone else puts in the work, and he simply swoops in and deletes it. This is very off-putting and strong-arm style of warning / scaring off more novice editors, as is his assumption, with immediately threatening with bans and blocks.

All actions by this individuals are consistent with https://en.wikipedia.org/Wikipedia:Disruptive_editing

I need assistance from the community to slow down RMS125a AT yahoo.com, and get him to "chill" his style, as another user has put it.

Please assist here by adding the proof from edits he has made on https://en.wikipedia.org/Jenn_Cuneta

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.111.148 (talk) 14:06, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

User RMS125a AT yahoo.com (Voluntarily uses email as username) - Robert -

a) this is not my username and it is my signature that should be used to reference me, although my name is, of course, Robert

b) my username was grandfathered in ages ago.

c) I did in fact expend "effort to edit or correct the data", this was no wholesale blanking or as the IP calls it "Bulk Delete Action" of the entire article, the IP just doesn't like the particular edits I made and this action is an abuse of process in itself, in my opinion, to get me to "chill style". Quis separabit? 16:34, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

No, your user name is' "Rms125a@hotmail.com", which you yourself make quite clear in "b" when you say "my username was grandfathered in ages ago" (which is true - emphasis added). That you want to be referred to by your sig, "Quis separabit?", is another matter altogether - that request should be respected, but it doesn't make your sig your username, which remains "Rms125a@hotmail.com".I suggest that if you want to avoid this issue in the future, you simply go to WP:CHU and change your user name from ""Rms125a@hotmail.com" to "Quis separabit?", which will have the advantage of stopping people who aren't aware of your grandfathered status from complaining about the apparent violation of WP:USERNAME. If you, for whatever reason, choose not to do this, then I'm afraid you're going to have to expect to continue to explain your status for years to come, but when you do so, please don't misstate the facts about what your username is. It is ""Rms125a@hotmail.com" - and a ping to "Quis separabit?" will not go to your account. BMK (talk) 17:27, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

FTR, I support Ken's suggestion to update your Username at WP:CHU here. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Removal of unsourced promotional material from biographies of living persons is entirely in accord with Misplaced Pages policy. And if you keep adding it, you may find yourself blocked from editing. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

On a side-note. In this edit RMS125a AT yahoo.com seems to have removed a few categories that should be there. Debresser (talk) 14:16, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

MY username is not RMS125a AT yahoo.com; please refer to me by my signature. Quis separabit? 16:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

This hysterical overreaction by the IP who made this frivolous complaint belies the fact that the article -- like those of so many other artists, musicians, actors from a certain region -- is in my estimation overrun with tabloid-esque details, incessant promotionalism, POV/OR text, etc. (see ). It needed trimming and I trimmed it. I had no reason to do so except to maintain standards. That is called BOLD, no? In fact the IP himself/herself recognized this and removed some of the disputed text him/herself before coming here (see ). In my edit summaries I merely explained the problem(s) and advised this apparent newbie against violating 3RR which I felt I should do for ethical reasons although I admit I shouldn't have used all capital letters (see here). Quis separabit? 16:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• The OP persist in adding unsourced trivia to an article. A long-tome Misplaced Pages reverts. The IP comes to the admins with hysterical claims of disruption. Who here knows what happens next? Guy (Help!) 16:48, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Does it involve a pony?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:20, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Where is this unsourced trivia. Why does everyone around have a huge ego, as if editing this minor article about a minor personality matters to any of you? This is a minor thing, yet everyone tries to come off like they are a lord of the universe. Each and every sentence and every fact can be googled, people. Every bit of so-called trivia is google-able and you will get the reference immediately. I'm certain none of you will expend the time to google and source the data. I am contributing information for others to find, in the most complete way, and my efforts are simply being laughed at. I also attempted to email the user directly, but I don't believe that I've received a response as of yet. Its very sad indeed that people spend time adding information, such as discography, to make data in Misplaced Pages more complete, only to have others come and delete these entries for no apparent discernible reason. RMS125a@yahoo.com please change your username to Quis separabit. And PS. The "offending" paragraph which was voluntarily removed by me was copied directly from the youtube account description from the music publisher. You could have googled it as well. I don't sit around composing promotional materials. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.111.148 (talk) 19:09, June 21, 2015‎ (UTC)

MY username is not RMS125a@yahoo.com, again.

"hange your username to Quis separabit." --nope; not even your business.

A lot of editing is speculation subjective which is why we seek consensus on talkpages first before going to ANI, unless someone is so abusive there is no other option. I am not that someone. I am not perfect and I do sometimes have deletionist instincts, but your hysteria and abuse of process stands for itself. And when you have 150,000 or so edits under your belt, let me know. Quis separabit? 19:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• My IP is in New York, NY. I am not a singer, artist, musician or performer. I'm also not affiliated in any way with any music labels. Your keyboard-bullying and grandstanding does not impress nor intimidate me. Your lack of apology, Robert, further belies the sad truth that this process makes you somehow feel superior and powerful over others. I'm not impressed nor intimidated by your threatening, disrespectful and condescending manner. I don't care who is a novice, newbie, n00b or anything that you care to call someone other than yourself and your comrades who have a bazillion deletions under their belt. It's a 💕 on-line. EVERYONE can make edits. SORRY to bring your world of perceived self-import crashing down on you. Your insults and behavior, manner of self-expression are simply pathetic and in complete opposition to the ideals and values that Misplaced Pages embodies, regardless of how many people agree on any level with any particular action that you take. This entire exercise is a waste of time for me, but I'm doing it on principle. You obviously have no respect for others. I can also see by reading your initial comment here, that you are a bigot and a racist, as you attempt to point a finger at people of a certain creed. I'm actually a Caucasian American born in the US, but I nonetheless find your comments incredibly offensive. I hope that if you have any Asian or Pacific-Islander friends that they see the way you choose to express yourself. For everyone else - please refrain from making generic blanket statements, and rather take the time to investigate something before you respond.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.111.148 (talk) 19:32, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter where your IP is -- that would be a matter for WP:ANI in the event you were accused of sockpuppetry, which no one, including me, has done. You do not have to have a material or financial interest to engage in promotional text, sometimes without necessarily intending to. Fans are fans. Some of my (aforementioned) 100,000+ edits have been undone over the years in articles in which I was, shall we say, overly enthusiastic. I didn't realize I was expected to make an apology since you are the one who dragged me here. But I do regret if you feel I impugned your integrity. Disagreements ≠ verbal assaults, and if my sometimes florid language led you to believe otherwise I apologize. Quis separabit? 21:52, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Robert, It was in reference to your finger-pointing towards "those of so many other artists, musicians, actors from a certain region -- is in my estimation overrun with tabloid-esque details, incessant promotionalism." This is why I pointed out my location and the fact that i did not belong to any such group. Your language, initially, was not the issue. The issue is that someone (myself) logged on, added information to wikipedia, in several different areas of a single article, and a minute after-wards with no warning, you simply deleted everything that had been added. When I noticed and reverted your deletion, you reverted again and threatened me with ban and used ALL CAPS. I looked you up, and saw that (of course) its not the first time that someone had been ticked off by your "deletionist tendencies" (This is 66.65.111.148) 209.196.192.8 (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Can we close this thing out? It does not appear anyone has anything to add and I cannot see anything positive coming from keeping this thread active. 66.65.111.148 did not reply to my last comments (see above), and we must all move on. Quis separabit? 02:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Actually, 66.65.111.148, Robert is correct in removing what you added in. On articles dealing with living people we have strict guidelines as to what can be there. The first guideline is anything in there has to have a reference with it, we can't just ask the users to google it, if there's no reference, then that item has to be removed. If you are the artist or are part of her P/R company you can have your identity verified via a group of trusted users and that will help somewhat but it won't get you around having to use verifiable sources when posting into that article. KoshVorlon Rassekali ternii i mlechnye puti 11:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Lets assume for a moment that this is all that Robert's actions amounted to - then don't you still think that for verifiable facts that are added to wikipedia, at least the author should be alerted / notified to add a reference? Not to mention that adding the reference is an added layer of functionality which requires further action and appropriate know-how. None of us are born as encyclopedia editors, right? Isn't it safe to assume that everyone has to start somewhere, and that a gentle guiding hand is more appropriate approach than deletion of what is otherwise accurate, factual and useful information (assuming there's a reason that you landed on this particular article in the first place) Isn't there a better approach than simply deleting other peoples' contributions, due to lack of a reference, which can otherwise be looked up? Ultimately, I don't care for any apology from anyone. I want people to behave in a civil, unthreatening and hopefully welcoming manner, and to accept that other people will make legitimate contributions to articles. If we start deleting everything that offends us and doesn't suit what we think should be there, all that it will accomplish is that people will be turned off from participation. Robert didn't even know me, and he made so many assumptions about who I may be, why I may be adding information and how it would be appropriate to respond to me. This behavior is more suitable to a sysadmin of a BBS... you offend the admin and your get blocked and/or banned. Every action here is somehow justified by some policy page on Misplaced Pages. Since my discography edits have now remained in tact, I have nothing further to add in this thread. I just hope that everyone can get off their high horse. Adding references is not a big deal. With the amount of effort that has been expended here in discussion, all of the references could have been added by now. I'm sure that there must be a standard way of referencing for discography. I'm certain wikipedia is choke-full of big-name artists and their discographies. (also from 66.65.111.148) 209.196.192.8 (talk) 13:42, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

" Isn't it safe to assume that everyone has to start somewhere, and that a gentle guiding hand is more appropriate approach than deletion of what is otherwise accurate, factual and useful information?" Yes, it absolutely is - but there's one place where it's not, and that's unsourced information in biographies of living people, which is subject to immediate removal. However, it is not an arcane art to add references to anything you insert - simply find a reliable source confirming the information, and use the citation wizard to add it in. Black Kite (talk) 14:07, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Is this thread ever going to end or is it a soapbox? It has become an irritant. Quis separabit? 14:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Persistent removal of a Wikilink

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Aaabbb11 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) has persistently removed the Wikilink to "cult" in the article Falun Gong.

My warning to him/her was to no avail. An intervention is needed. STSC (talk) 17:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

First of all, it belongs at the edit warring noticeboard. Second, this definitely belongs in WP:LAME territory. *sigh* --TL22 (talk) 19:38, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

User:WalgreensOsorio

Not sure who this person is, but they attempted to add PP to Wendy's. Userpage claims they are a commons-admin, but fails verification (likely a hijacked cut-paste from someone).--☾Loriendrew☽ ☏(ring-ring) 18:07, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• Links: WalgreensOsorio (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)
  And I've added a follow-up comment to their Talk page. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:25, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It seems their userpage is largely copied from here. Everymorning talk 19:59, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

94.197.121.181

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94.197.121.181 (talk · contribs · WHOIS) has been repeatedly adding questionable and unsourced claims to articles; after I repeatedly reverted their changes to Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, they reverted my changes with the edit summaries

• Shut Up
• shut the fuk up. No adding embedded notes
• no more adding embedded notes

so could an admin perhaps get this editor's attention? Trivialist (talk) 19:00, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

• It's always nice to see that the articles that shouldn't be in a real encyclopedia generate the most trouble. Drmies (talk) 22:40, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
• Well, I blocked them for a bit, for this edit warring and for being not very friendly in those edit summaries. BTW, "fuk", that's just plebeian. BTW, I have no idea what the "embedded" stuff is about; it's always a good idea to get consensus on the talk page, so that dumb admins like me know what's going on. Drmies (talk) 22:48, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

LooneyTunerIan copyright and intimidation

I recently nominated a few articles from User:LooneyTunerIan for speedy deletion due to copyright violations (see: Looney Tunes Presents (VHS Series) and Bugs and Friends). Both times, he's responded on my user talk page and claimed that he will recreate these pages. His language has been aggressive and intimidating. See diffs here:

I've also noticed other similar behavior by this user on various user and article talk pages. See diffs/pages here:

I've attempted to politely explain the importance of our copyright policy to this editor when he's posted on my talk page, and I also posted a warning regarding appropriate interaction with other editors on his talk page back when it wasn't being directed at me. Could an administrator please take a look at this situation (both the intimidation and possibly explaining the copyright issues to this editor)? The most recent edit on my talk page in particular is making me a bit uncomfortable, and I'd like to remove myself from the situation. ~ Rob 02:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The aggressive commentary aside, what we have here sounds like a lack of competence. @LooneyTunerIan: needs to understand that copyright violations are dealt with very seriously. Threatening, or implying, to readd copyright violations is grounds for an immediate indefinite block. Edit warring over it is also foolish. Blackmane (talk) 03:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Forgot to note this instance of aggression as well: User_talk:LooneyTunerIan#October_2014 ~ Rob 03:26, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

LooneyTunerIan] has created 19 unsourced articles and shows no sign of stopping or working in collaboration with other editors. The editor is not here to contribute positively to the project. Flat Out (talk) 03:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't matter anymore. I have requested the articles that I have created to be deleted. That way, no one will ever know what Looney Tunes VHS/Laserdisc Collections there were or have been released ever again. For now on, the only Looney Tunes Home Video collection articles anyone will be looking for are either Blu-rays or DVDs. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Well that, or you could provide some sources to your articles and learn to work with other editors. Flat Out (talk) 04:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@LooneyTunerIan: If you wish to have those articles deleted, you can add {{Db-g7}} to the top of the article, provided that you are the only significant contributor to them. On the other hand, I'd much rather you stick around and improve the articles to meet WP:GNG and WP:V. No-one here has anything against you personally or Looney Tunes VHS/Laserdisc Collections. ~ Rob 05:01, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@Flat Out: No. :( It's better if they all get taken down and deleted. I even nominated them for deletion myself. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: You mean to say that adding {{Db-g7}} to all of my articles that I have created will automatically delete them? Are you sure it'll work? --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 05:08, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@LooneyTunerIan: It wouldn't immediately delete them, but it would add a template to the page that would mark them for speedy deletion under the criteria of WP:G7 (artist requesting deletion). Adding them to the category you've created will not mark them for speedy deletion by itself. ~ Rob 05:10, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

@BU Rob13: In any case, I've done what you said. All of my articles that I have made have the {{Db-g7}} symbol on them. All I can do now is wait... and see if they get deleted. With any luck, they might. But after this, I am never creating another Looney Tunes-based article again. I'll leave that to the professionals. --LooneyTunerIan (talk) 06:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Vandalism report

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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/?title=The_Wiggles Page has references to Satanism, Hell-swords and other material not relevant and defamatory to page topic — Preceding unsigned comment added by 73.21.64.203 (talk) 03:17, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing. Removed. --NeilN 03:24, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

merely self-promotional userpage

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The content of userpage User:C2ashish suggests an abuse for self-promotion. --Túrelio (talk) 08:00, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Interaction ban request

I'm requesting a formal interaction ban between myself and Annvarie. I've been editing Nicki Minaj discography since March, and almost every edit I make seems like an uphill battle with the force of Annvarie. Within three hours of my inital edit to the page, right back in March, I had somehow found myself in an edit war with them. It's continued this way ever since.

No dispute is too small for Annvarie to get their teeth stuck into. From the capitalisation of letters to the colours in an discography infobox, that were origianlly changed to conform to Template:Infobox album/color. Annvarie can somehow word an argument for practically any change made to the article. Annvarie also shows no sign of compromise when editing. Every single dispute the two of us have had has resulted in either Annvarie barking at me on some platform, me asking an admin for their opinion, or me starting a discussion on the talk page. While you may sit there thinking "What's the issue in taking it to the talk page?", trust me, it gets to the point where you really have to ask yourself what you're doing with your life, opening a wordy talk page discussion motioning to to change a chart name from "US R&B" to "US R&B/HH" hindered by an initial edit war with Annvarie.

I started drafting this request at my sandbox, writing a large chunk of it and saving it under a hidden note to take a nap for a couple of hours. I guess Annvarie saw my draft, through flicking through my contributions or other means, based on their next edit summary, another revert of mine, saved with the most pageant-y edit summary I've seen since creating an account here: "I don't consider editing a competition. I follow guidelines and base my edits on samples provided. That said, I reverted this edit based on WP:Text formatting & the sample table on WP:Discog style." something extremely polarizing from the usual blank summary or occasional summary CAPITALIZING buzz words like GUIDELINES or POLICIES to REALLY GET ACROSS THE MESSAGE that they know what they're TALKING ABOUT. On the intuition Annvarie saw my sandbox and found out about my plans to request an IBAN, I tried one last time to extend the old olive branch, and ask to work through issues, stylistic differences, and any other conflicts we had. This was, as I predicted, met with a nice lengthy paragraph on how Annvarie only makes THESE EDITS because they're following STRICT GUIDELINES that I evidently don't, and I'm a liar for insinuating they revert all my edits. While I never actually accused Annvarie of reverting all my edits, here's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29 reversions Annvarie has made to things I've contributed to the article, some with good reason as they unknowingly violated certain policies/guidelines, but a large majority just due to personal disagreement.

Admittedly, I have assumed bad faith in certain instances, which I hold my hands up to, but honestly, can anyone blame me for doing so? I just want to get this out of my hair at last because honestly, I'm so fed up with treading on eggshells on that article. It's now 9am and I've had no sleep after being up with a nasty cold, so some of this may make no sense/sound overly cunty/or even stupid in some parts. I apologize in advance if this is the case. I'm content with a mutually-sided IBAN, I have no reason to revert Annvarie, they're a helpful editor, we just have difference of opinion...a lot, as hopefully they see me in the same way and won't request a one-sided ban. Hope to hear others opinions, christ this is going to drain the shit out of me, Azealia911 _talk 09:02, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Comment it is clear that Annvarie is a WP:SPA see edit counter even in comparison to Azealia911 also demonstrated in edit counter results but this is mentioned just for context.

Personally I do not think that Ibans can ever work in situations in which editors work on the same content. I also have little knowledge of discography related issues and think that it may be worth pinging editors that have contributed to a relevant article, TP or Wikiproject to comment. However, having read through report related texts I think that issues of WP:OWN probably apply. A number of the edits and reversions seem to be about issues that didn't seem to me to have been of great consequence and I think that problems with the interactions may develop from problems arising from the actual edits. Issues here also relate to WP:AFG and WP:CIVIL.

Perhaps a topic ban on one or both editors would be appropriate. The length of such a ban may better be decided by editors who better know the topic but even a very short ban would get something on record so that if there was recurrence in behaviour then platform would be provided for further steps to be taken. Something needs to be done to better promote collaborative editing here. GregKaye 09:48, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think an interaction ban would be all bad, at least for a trial run for a couple of weeks or-so, to see how it plays out. After which time, if the article history then starts re-clogging up with constant action-revert-action-revert like it is now, we could re-discuss a longer or permanent interaction ban. The only con of the trial IBAN would be a possible reversion of all edits made during the trial with the excuse of "The IBAN's over, I can edit how I like"

I'd respectfully oppose a topic ban, I don't think that would be fair on Annvarie, who you aforementioned is a SPA, considering a topic ban on Nicki Minaj would leave them with no pages to edit, with them having only edited Mianj-related articles. But by the same token, I don't think it'd be fair on myself either, considering topic bans aim to reduce disruptive edits, which I personally don't think I've made on the article.

I'm pinging Kww, an admin who dabbles with the page. Don't really know who else to alert to be honest. Azealia911 _talk 12:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm not inclined to issue either a topic ban or an interaction ban. Yes, I've noticed the two of you, and I think it's remarkable how petty both of you can be. Changing small text from 85% to 90%, and then edit warring over it? I'm more inclined to ban both of you from making purely cosmetic changes to discography articles, so that you stand a chance of learning how to interact over content.—Kww(talk) 13:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Kww The change you reference was nothing cosmetic, not on the main view of the article anyway. {{small|Insert text}} sets at 85%, and was a way of decreasing mess to the array of <span style="font-size:85%;">Insert text<span> I have no idea where you got 90% from. But really, a discography topic ban? That seems grossly unfair to both parties, rendering Annvarie unable to edit their primary edited page, which potentially leads to them just leaving the project all together, and unfair on myself, especially as I'm in the middle of a FLC, and responding to comments could get me reported. Azealia911 _talk 13:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I didn't suggest a discography topic ban: I suggested a ban on making cosmetic changes to discographies. —Kww(talk) 13:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

What would that cover exactly? Could you give a few examples, relating to previous conflicts between myself and Annvarie? Sorry, it seems a tad vague, and could still cause problems at my FLC upon certain suggestions. Would it also just be NM discography? I edit many other discographies without issue from other editors. Azealia911 _talk 13:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm about to go to work for the day. Let me mull it over.—Kww(talk) 14:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Sure thing Azealia911 _talk 14:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The long - term block of all Hackney public libraries

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On Saturday someone said that these libraries had been blocked because of edit - warring to put original research into articles. The blocking administrator did not say this - it was raised for the first time on Saturday 24 days after the block. I work in Hackney and a lot of people apart from myself find it inconvenient not being able to edit during the working day, plus the people who live there can't edit in the evenings and at weekends either.

In view of what was said I went through the contribution record since the last block looking for more than three reverts in any one article in any 24 - hour period. I didn't find any. I also looked at the contributions in more detail. In the period between the blocks there were 566 edits, broken down as follows:

Mainspace - 347

Project space - 69

Talkspace - 150.

There are clues as to who is doing the editing - one edit summary reads I am a descendant of Jules Van den Bossche and the daughter of John Van Den Bossche.

I also read the discussions on the talk page. There is a complaint that JoeSperrazza is fixated with a particular user (Joe hasn't edited since Saturday). There are two notices from Jc3s5h about alleged edit warring - on the second occasion he took it to the edit - warring notice board where it was rejected. Presumably the first complaint would have suffered the same fate. There is another notice from Jc3s5h alleging the insertion of synthesis and original research. That wasn't taken to a noticeboard and if it had been presumably would have suffered the same fate as the other two complaints. Per the comment of W Thomas at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive889#IP's six - month block for removing vandalism the IP's block does not relate to this incident.

Looking at the diffs of the edits, the IP spends a lot of time removing vandalism, correcting errors and adding fresh content to articles, besides giving helpful ref desk answers. None of the 566 edits is vandalism. Coming from a public IP that's awesome. Please reconsider this block. 188.220.96.221 (talk) 11:33, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, of course all of the Misplaced Pages editors in Hackney rely on their libraries to edit and can't possibly edit from their homes. This is the same user that is behind all those other IP's, AGAIN bringing up the nonsensical "six-month block" thread. Someone please block.--Atlan (talk) 11:45, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

(ec) I don't think you answered my question I asked you above: Who are you? Are you someone who would benefit from being reminded that editing with an IP is order to avoid scutiny of your edits is a violation of WP:SOCK? And what do you have to say aboutThomas W's revelations about your IP here? Why, in fact, are you bothering to try to get back your editing privileges when you know it ain't gonna work? Are you under the impression that Wikipedians are stupid? BMK (talk) 11:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

GalaxyFighter55 is being a jerk

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So, He is harassing other wikipedians, and also I place warning templates on his talkpage, and he reverts my edit to make it look like I never warned him! Also, he posted this on my talk page out of nowhere, (Hey you (title)

STOP! GalaxyFighter55 (talk) 7:22 pm, 19 June 2015, last Friday (3 days ago) (UTC−5) Can you please help me out. P.S. My proof for harassing is deleting the warnings on his talk page, and being very rude to another wikipedian when that wikipedian informed him of something he did wrong on his talk page. ThatKongregateGuy (talk) 12:57, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not see any harassment here. Any editor may remove most talk page notices from there talk page anytime they want. There are very few notices that can not be removed and none of those are on GalaxyFighter55's talk page. Telling you to stop in that manner is rude but it is not harassment. -- GB fan 13:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Calling someone a “jerk” is not the best way to get the results you want. As noted above, removal of warnings is, in general, quite acceptable. If there are other issues, please identify them.--S Philbrick(Talk) 13:38, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• ThatKongregateGuy, I see a couple of problems with your behavior. First, calling someone a jerk is a violation of No personal attacks. Next, I see you are a bit template-happy with GalaxyFighter55, and you template him with warnings just because you disagree with his edits. Next, he has every right to remove any warnings from any user, including you. On the other hand, you do NOT have the authority to revert him on his own talk page and reinstate your unwarranted templates. What should just be a content dispute is turning into a behavioral dispute, due to YOUR behavior. While neither of you may be saints, you are the one here complaining about him. There is an old proverb that says:People who live in glass houses should not throw stones. I suggest you read WP:BRD and take it to the article talk page, CALMLY. Otherwise, everyone's behavior (including yours) is on the table when you take a problem to ANI. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 14:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) The reporting editor should beware the boomerang for their misuse of Galaxy's talk page. GalaxyFighter55 is a good editor. I've rarely had a problem with the quality of his edits. Since ThatKongregateGuy didn't provide any useful diffs, it's unclear what he means by being very rude to another wikipedian when that wikipedian informed him of something he did wrong on his talk page. If he means this response, "Get off my talk page and leave me alone", that is not an ideal response for sure, but it's a rare outburst for Galaxy. I don't think it warrants a trip to ANI, I'm sure if an admin reminds Galaxy to be civil and level-headed, the matter can be closed without any administrative sanctions. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 16:32, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

User:Cassianto don't believe in WP:5P4

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Administrators are going soft on him.

WP:CIVIL is turned into a big joke by User:Cassianto

• using the word bollocks

• using the word twat

• gross comment

• personal attack

• Regular candidate in ANI

• HJ Mitchell's councelling didn't work till today

• rollback misuse resulting in rollback privilege removed

• personal attack

• Swear words

• Choice of words I'd recommend you get your facts right first before shit-stirring over at Chillum's talk.

• Unacceptable comment If I'd have said that "in my opinion, NeilN is a worthless piece of shit", would that have warranted a block?

• Refusing to accept Misplaced Pages:Misplaced Pages does not need you
  • My point was that without content creators like me, this place wouldn't exist. Thus, civility wouldn't be an issue.

• • If it weren't for people like me, this whole encyclopaedia wouldn't exist, so it wouldn't be possible for prissy people to feel insulted during interactions.

95.141.29.56 (talk) 15:00, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

All of these issues have been dealt with in previous threads. Repeating them serves no useful purpose. Recommend the WP:BOOMERANG Scr★pIron 15:11, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Don't just close it without checking the detailed posts. I have gathered some new behavioral evidence which was not discussed before. Whenever you wikipedians say stop baiting, it summarizes "we are scared of Cassianto". don't bait him, he will bite you.

Is there any special rule for Cassianto to use disgusting words and phrases repeatedly. If administrators tells me, "Yes, my boy! we have created a rule that User:Cassianto can say whatever he want, but don't bait him". Then I will edit the Misplaced Pages civility page. "Everyone must be civil only User:Cassianto can use extremely dirty language here". Misplaced Pages has five pillars. But Cassianto has four pillars. We are scared of him. Please don't bait him.

If no one takes any action against Cassianto, then I will also behave like Cassianto and do the same thing. Then others will follow us. We will gather more followers citing the "Cassianto clause of violating civility" which explicitly states. If Cassianto can use derogatory, gross, dirty words, we can also use it.95.141.29.56 (talk) 16:23, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I made the point of notifying the user of the discussion regarding them on their talk page. Wildthing61476 (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Please block Dthomsen8 as a malfunctioning bot

Dthomsen8 (talk · contribs) keeps making pointless changes to hundreds of talk pages such as . They serve no purpose and go against WP:COSMETICBOT and WP:NOTBROKEN (and WP:AWB rules in general). I warned them earlier, but they haven't changed their behaviour (e.g. ) or even replied to those concerns.

Someone please block them per WP:COSMETICBOT, or alternatively revoke their AWB access. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 17:56, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

This isnt a bot so not sure why they would be blocked as a malfunctioning bot. Amortias (T)(C) 18:36, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

The bot policy is clear that editors doing bot-like edits are under the same restrictions as any bot would be. See WP:MEATBOT in particular. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 23:20, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

It was more of a it isnt malfunctioning but what it was set out to do wasnt constructive. Amortias (T)(C) 12:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Support; it's disruptive behavior and I've also complained at their userpage. Fgnievinski (talk) 00:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• If there's a problem then xyr AWB access should be revoked. Guy (Help!) 11:27, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• User hasn't edited in almost 24 hours. Give them a chance to respond. If they start up again without responding, I'll yank the AWB. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 12:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• What's the problem with ? It looks like a constructive change IMHO (switching a project template to a correctly more specific template). Maybe not something I'd bother to make myself, clearly not one you'd make, but that's no reason to prevent Dthomsen8 if they wish to do it. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

See WP:COSMETICBOT and WP:NOTBROKEN. Headbomb {talk / contribs / physics / books} 15:56, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

User:All4chats

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I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say User:All4chats isn't here to build an encyclopedia. Lugnuts 18:44, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've deleted their userpage as a clear copyright violation. The insertion of the link seems really unrelated. I mean maybe they are a troll, but it just seems really random. As I'm not sure what is really going on, I'll leave the question of a block to someone else, but expect one will be coming. Monty₈₄₅ 18:53, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Thank you. Lugnuts 18:58, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Dylann Storm Roof

An admin is needed ASAP on this, requesting move protection. Is there a way to restore the title Dylann Storm Roof? - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the cleanup, admins! Could someone also get rid of some of the trollish redirects, if there are any left? Thanks! JoeSperrazza (talk) 00:13, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Dylann Storm Roof was the original article title, the talk-page is also messed up still and yes thanks admins. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I've blocked the offending account, deleted all the problematic redirects, and rev deleted the move vandalism to hid the possible BLP issues. Also move protected the article. Anything else? --Jayron32 00:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Well WP:RS is calling the subject "Dylann Storm Roof" but Dylann Roof works too if people want it that way. Thanks again for the admin help all around. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

@Nihonjoe: also helped with the cleanup. --Jayron32 00:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes thanks to him as well =) - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I tried to, anyway. Jayron32 was too speedy. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Was Dylann Roof move protected? I tried adding the template but found I could still move the page. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:26, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It has been now. I think all the different ways it was being moved made it hard to tell what was protected and what was not. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yeah I guessed, thanks again. - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Clap along if you feel like a Storm without a Roof. Or is it the other way round? Guy (Help!) 11:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Endorsements for the Democratic Party presidential primaries, 2016

• A Bernie Sanders campaigner, JaskaPDX (talk · contribs), is corrupting the entry by deleting information & facts which he doesn't like. Archway (talk) 01:41, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I see a red linked user talk page, and no discussion on the article talk page. Have you attempted to discuss the content in question? Also, notifying an editor when you report them here is required. Monty₈₄₅ 01:46, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

However, the notice board you need to move to is Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard where all can blister their fingers as the polemics rage. This is not the correct venue for the conversation you want to have. It looks to me like the guy you are reporting has a fairly good case, actually. Jusdafax 02:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry if this isn't the right place, but I posted a more detailed description of this issue to the page you suggested: here.

Individuals that do not understand our political process should not be updating this page. The article is too important, influences too many people, and can have a real affect on voting in the United States. If a politically-savvy admin can lock this down and manage this page, that is probably the best solution. Again, I'm not intimately familiar with Misplaced Pages so I once more apologize if this is an improper venue. JaskaPDX (talk) 15:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaskaPDX (talk • contribs) 07:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• The RSN discussion is not helpful and I'm leaning towards a WP:NOTHERE block against JaskaPDX if the editor wants to use the site just for advocacy. Once the game of "only people who agree with me have the right to edit there" starts, it never ends well. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 11:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yawn. That isn't what I suggested at all. I'm asking that an established moderator lock down the page and manage it themselves. Not me, because clearly an interest in the transparency in the integrity of our democratic processes are, according to you, advocacy of a particular candidate. Thanks for clearing that up because that is at the core of this issue. Your entries with the non-citations have been undone. I refer you to the above comment by Jusdafax. JaskaPDX (talk) 14:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)JaskaPDX — Preceding unsigned comment added by JaskaPDX (talk • contribs) 14:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Two quick thoughts: First, it might just be because I am Canadian, but I really don't see much value in a borderline indiscriminate list of random people who support a candidate. I mean, it's nice and all to know Ted Danson is still alive, but, really? (As a related aside, is it just me, or does the "individuals" section of Martin O'Malley's list seem totally desperate?) Second, JaskaPDX, it would be helpful if, instead of re-reverting when people disagree, that you go to the article's talk page and explain your reasoning. Hopefully other interested people will be willing to fairly evaluate your concerns, and you theirs. Resolute 15:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the comment. In fact, I did enter this in the talk section of that article, but it was promptly ignored and the poorly cited names were again published. It's clear, and you make the case with the Ted Danson entry, that the Clinton supporters are trying to drown out the other candidates by sheer volume, sources be damned. Luck you, I wish we had the Canadian political process; this is really ridiculousJaskaPDX (talk) 15:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Please don't put words in my mouth. I made no statements regarding the actions of "Clinton supporters". I used Danson merely as an obvious example of "why should anyone care what they think?" from the list. Mia Farrow would have been an equally valid example. Resolute 15:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

My apologies, that isn't my intention. I don't want to suggest that this was your position - it most certainly was not. I am extrapolating what you said about Danson and why, I believe, him and so many other celebrities are included in this article. The important thing, it seems, is that the list of endorsements looks extensive. In that respect, I believe that's what the Clinton supporters are up to which is why they simply copy/paste Congressional names from a citation without sources. I side with you on the relevancy of celebrity endorsement, but I know some others may have a differing opinion so I'll let someone else make that decision. Again, sorry if you felt I was putting words in your mouth. Not my intention whatsoever. JaskaPDX (talk) 15:53, 23 June 2015 (UTC)JaskaPDX (talk) 15:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Unauthorized deletion of backlog in Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

On 22:39 30 May 2015 the user Orduin removed several entries from the backlog in Misplaced Pages:Administrator intervention against vandalism with the comment "remove declined reports not touched in over a half hour".

My question is: Was this an authorized deletion? As far as I can see Orduin is not even an administrator.

I ask this, since my complaint about the administrator(!) Onel5969 was removed with it. Or could it be that Orduin camouflaged it in order to protect Onel5969? Or am I simply too wary?

Thanks for a short answer! -- ZH8000 (talk) 03:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

A check of your edit history shows no reports to AIV as far back as June 7 (I didn't have the time to go back farther). Next, Onel5969 is not an admin. Thus, you will need to explain further what this is all about. Last you did not notify either Orduin or Onel5969 about this thread which is one of the requirements when posting here. MarnetteD|Talk 03:44, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

As I wrote, it was on 30 May 2015. -- ZH8000 (talk) 04:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The thing you didn't do was inform the editors in question. MarnetteD|Talk 04:16, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• All the removed reports had been properly declined by an admin. There is no written instruction that I am aware of regarding how long declined requests should remain at WP:AIV before removal. While removals have historically been done by admins, I don't see a compelling reason why that needs to be the case, assuming all that is being removed are reports already declined by admins. That said, I personally leave them for a couple hours, and I think that is pretty typical, mostly to give the reporter a better chance to see the decline reason. I think there is some movement to pinging the reporter when we decline, so that will reduce the need to leave them there very long. Monty₈₄₅ 03:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, but how can I see that the request have been declined? -- ZH8000 (talk) 04:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

May 30? and you ask about it on more than 3 weeks later. Perhaps you should make it clear what this really is all about. MarnetteD|Talk 04:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Since your accusation is that one editor covered up for another perhaps you could provide evidence for that. Looks like a WP:BEANS situation and this thread should be closed unless evidence is provided to refute this. MarnetteD|Talk 04:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not accuse it. It's a simple question ("Was it a authorized deletion?"). And when you are not able to read the starting text "On 22:39 30 May 2015", that's hardly my inability. :-) -- ZH8000 (talk) 04:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Monty845: Don't declined AIV reports get archived somewhere? Or does that only happen with the approved AIV requests? (Or not at all in either case?!)... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 04:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

IJBall It turns out that the OP was reporting Onel5969 for removing posts by the OP on Onel5969's talk page. a) that is not vandalism and b) it is allowed per WP:OWNTALK. I thought this should be swiftly closed before. This has confirmed that. MarnetteD|Talk 04:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

It should be added that an AIV report that has no merit can be removed. Remember that critera 1 for reporting there is "The edits of the reported user must be obvious vandalism". ZH8000's post there shows an obvious inability to understand that. MarnetteD|Talk 04:31, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Caste system in India - POV pushing by group of editors

The page is already under discretionary sanctions.

I tried to contest a view of British constructed caste system in India, by removing it from lead section ( The then third paragraph) Was staunchly opposed by a group of editors ( VictoriaGrayson (talk · contribs) Ogress (talk · contribs) Kautilya3 (talk · contribs) in spite of my request them to on their talk pages and in the article talk page to engage in a discussion and reach a consensus on including it in the lead. ( Not in the body of the article)
Discussion ensued and no consensus was reached. For my part there was no citation of a comprehensive review from a reliable source for the wide spread acceptability of the claim.
I was told no consensus was required for an already existing sentences as it was there for quite long by user Kautilya3. Though I cannot agree to it,I did not have any option, as by the editor that was the Policy.

I added a clean up tag and gave reasons. Attempted an extensive review of the article on why there is a suspected POV pushing in the talk page of the article. The users Kautilya3 and Joshua Jonathan (talk · contribs) acknowledged the review.

Meanwhile, JJ pushed the contested claim into opening sentence of the article, too crudely. ( In addition to the already existing mention of it in the second paragraph.( Former third)

• I reverted and User VictoriaGrayson reverted - without engaging my talk page explanation why I reverted JJs edits.
• I again reverted and user Ogress came and reverted. No engaging on talk page.
• I again reverted and user Kautilya3 has reverted, again no engaging but warning and threats of blocks.

None of these editors had something to say to the discussions in the talk page and they did not revert the POV pushing by JoshuaJonathan into the first statement despite no consensus. ( I am not talking about the consensus attempted for removing the statement from lead here, as that statement still exist all the while)

The disputed claim is there in the lead of the article in two statements of the lead now. 1. First sentence of the article. 2. Second paragraph first sentence. ( The first dispute for which no consensus was evolved was for for the no#2 mentioned. Meanwhile, user JJ added the no#1 here. )

For me, this is a clear attempts of using technicality to push a POV and by seeing the nature of editors' behavior a concerted attempt.

I seek help. AB 08:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Just refer to THIS.VictoriaGrayson 08:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Unfortunately, this editor needs some serious help in understanding Misplaced Pages policies. He expects that everybody should try and convince him about material sourced to multiple reliable sources, and reach a "consensus" with him. Otherwise, he thinks he has a right to remove the material! I don't have words to describe this ridiculous state of affairs. - Kautilya3 (talk) 08:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm unclear why the editor feels it is appropriate to take me to Admin because I reverted his removal of strongly-cited material. And I protest strongly his claims that I ignored the talk page as we have been discussing this for quite a while. Ogress _smash! 09:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Adding Diffs.
1. JJs edits, substantial on the contested content, dine clandestinely. Here( Clandestine because the edit summery says :(→‎top: Correction/shifting emphasis; see Talk:Caste system in India#merger proposal, comment @ Santoshsivaraj, M.akkiii and Prymshbmg)". All the while mentioning nothing about any new reference material to say conclusively that ".., but was fully developed by the British Raj". Secretive indeed because the debates of talk page shows, JJ never took hardline position as done by VictoriaGrayson and Kautilya3. See the version of talk page where JJ talks about Post-Mughal phase in talk -page.] on 20 June where as h[https://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Caste_system_in_India&diff=667965685&oldid=667827091 is edits ( additions) mentioned are done on 21 June

I think there is enough and more evidence to suggest that users JJ, Kautilya3, Ogress, and VictoriaGrayson are working in unison to push the POV that British developed caste system in India, without citing adequate secondary RS or otherwise involving in talk page discussions and helping to reach a consensus.
Multiple editors have raised concerns over this issue of post-colonial scholarship's hypothesis being taken as a fact that the 'colonialism developed caste system in India.'
Please take a look at the review of article on the talk page about POV pushing. It has been tried to explain why there is a suspected POV pushing. None of these editors have engaged the concern of citing OR for the disputed content and tried to develop the article further on the lines of POV already alleged.
As the page is already under discretionary sanctions appropriate sanctions may be applied to ensure NPOV. AB 13:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

"Working in unison"? Okay, I'll try to give a serious response:

• "Clandestine": I've provided an edit-summary and a link to an explanation; this was done in response to three almost new editors, who raised concerns about the merger-proposal (my merger-proposal, to be sure);
• I've provided multiole reliable sources, i addition to those which were already there;
• I've added information on the origins of the jati-system diff diff diff.

I'm afraid that if there's a POV-problem here, the problem it at your side, going against a concensus by multiple editors based on multiple reliable sources. If you think that the British did not have a decisive influence on the caste-system as it exists today, then please provide reliable sources, instead of accusing multiple authors of POV-pushing and "working in unison." Consider also the possibility that what you perceive as such, is the result of a shared concensus on what the sources. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

NB: "mentioning nothing about any new reference material" - is this a serious comment? You think you can remove referenced material because the edit-summary does not say that references were added? And if three different editors revert you in a ow, could it be then that maybe there's a problem with your edits? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 15:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not see in the edit summary you mentioning about inserting the claim of ' development of caste system'. What was the need of re-assertion by inserting the already disputed content into opening statement of the article is my question. Especially there is a dispute which is devoid of a consensus? We can discuss the issue and will definitely engage in talk page. But while we do that, you edit and insert more content like this ,(I say secretively as you have not mentioned in edit summary, nor in talk page), and later say no consensus required for already existing comment? By the way, about the content, I did not get any link or a quote from a RS about reliability and widespread acceptance of Dirks' claim. It still exist (as per the talk page discussions) a hypothesis postulated by NB Dirks. If there is widespread acceptance, please quote the review of NB Dirks which reviews the post-colonial scholarship either critically or validating such a claim. See talk page for a reply for your comment there. AB 15:21, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

The Zwart review article is exactly that. It was discussed multiple times. But this ANI board is not for content matters.VictoriaGrayson 15:25, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Zwart is not a review. He uses Dirks claim to postulate something else. Zwart refers Dirks, in a couple of sentences, and he does not review Dirks postulate. This has been said multiple times. Which part you don't understand? Yes, this is ANI. AB 15:43, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Guess I have cleared the confusion about what I said about summary already. I was not reverting because of you not mentioning in the edit summary. 1. There was a content dispute. 2. We were party to discussions. 3. You again add the same content, to emphasis, again to the lead, to the opening sentence. Is it civil? ( The not mentioning part is to show a possible POV. Had you mentioned it, I would have reverted it immediately, which would have made the revert much more stronger.} AB 15:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

ABEditWiki is still edit warring. I think he broke 3rr.VictoriaGrayson 15:40, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I am surprised no admin is taking any view? If I am wrong, just tell me that, so that I need not waste my time and of course others time (may be POV pushers.. still editors!)Cheers AB 15:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Since ABEditWiki has been blocked for 1 week, can we get this discussion closed and/or hat-noted?VictoriaGrayson 17:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Problematic content in protected article

Elephant Talk page

Could an admin please have a look at the Talk page of the Elephant article. There is an editor there who is making edits (could be called a rant) totally unrelated to the article and has twice deleted my postings to the thread with no explanation. Thanks in advance.DrChrissy 09:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I'll take care of this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• @DrChrissy: I'm going to delete the edit history (since it has nothing to do with elephants), which will remove one of your remarks. Let me know if you are not OK with this. I'm also going to block the editor as being WP:NOTHERE to positively edit Misplaced Pages. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:06, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I'm perfectly ok with that. Thanks for the help.DrChrissy 09:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've removed a lot of their posts from other pages that were sort of the same: they picked a topic and made it seem like they were posting about the article topic, then spun off into a rant about their personal beliefs. They claimed that they didn't realize what they were doing, but at some point their removal of your edits seemed pretty deliberate. If they'd been editing a prior version of the article then it'd have stopped them, but their edit shows that it's most likely that you were interrupting their rant, which they didn't appreciate. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 09:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I had not realised they were editing other pages! Thanks for your swift action.DrChrissy 09:20, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• At this point I think I'm going to revoke their talk page access since they're not really interested in the fact that they were blocked for making OT forum posts and (sighs) are instead trying to use their talk page as a place to defend their OT personal opinion that was on the elephant talk page. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• I ended up revoking it, especially after they made a comment that accused DrChrissy of doing this as a personal attack. I honestly can't see where they'd have ever positively contributed to Misplaced Pages, considering that they ignored the repeated reminders that Misplaced Pages was not a forum and didn't show where they'd even registered that they were blocked - something that most editors would have picked up on by now. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 10:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

  Clearly either a troll or incompetent. Homosexual elephants - what next? However I'm not sure it met the threshold for RD3, not that it really matters. — Martin (MSGJ · talk) 11:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Gay octopuses, perhaps? Queer penguins? List of animals displaying homosexual behavior. Guy (Help!) 11:11, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Just for the record, the barred user has contacted me by email through wikipedia. They have asked reasonable questions, but in a POV way. I won't reply as I do not wish them to know my e-mail address, but I thought I would let people know.DrChrissy 13:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

User-page about Hitler

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Are user-pages like that at Jesserey7 allowed? The users only edits on WP, so far, were to create this page. I have given them a warning that their userpage may not be acceptable. 220 of 10:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Unacceptable. Bus stop (talk) 10:50, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Gone. WP:POLEMIC applies (and possibly WP:NOTHERE). Black Kite (talk) 10:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Strange concentration of new accounts on new, obscure article

Yesterday I blocked StevePhoenixAZ (talk · contribs) for being a spam-only account (inserting links to a commercial sites like this). One of the articles they had edited was Faur București, which was created on 6 June. I cleaned up this article as it was of interest (being football-related), but today I happened to check the edit history and spotted some rather odd goings-on. Despite being only two weeks old and very obscure, it has been edited by numerous new accounts – over 20 so far – with many of them using similar edit summaries ("grammar" is repeated often). One (DanielHolmes01 (talk · contribs)) has already been blocked by another admin for being a vandalism-only account, and some others have indulged in vandalism. However, some have also been positively productive. I can't really work out what's going on here. Is it an article that's been picked as some kind of training ground for a sockfarm of some kind? Other thoughts/views would be appreciated. Cheers, Number 57 10:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• Appears similar to Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#Strange behaviour from several new accounts. —SpacemanSpiff 11:04, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Return of an IP troll as User:Lastfirefighter

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Could some action be taken against an SPA vandal leaving trash messages on talk pages, signing them as Chillum, who it obviously isn't. I suspect it is the work of the same troll who opened this waste of time yesterday and was, in all probability, the IP hopper involved in this nonsense too.

Three on Cassianto's talk page:

• 10:47, 23 June 2015‎
• 10:47, 23 June 2015
• 11:52, 23 June 2015

One on mine:

• 10:47, 23 June 2015‎

Thanks - SchroCat (talk) 11:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I see that this user has already (just) been blocked. We'll see which guise they'll return in next. Many thanks to WikiLeon for the block. - SchroCat (talk) 11:10, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Geez, everyone wants to be me. Chillum 12:24, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I am Chillum JoeSperrazza (talk)

User:86.164.37.238

Is making attacks on me, can I delete it? The last Watch (talk) 16:31, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Grow up and stop pov pushing for once and stop wasting admin time on trivial matters. 86.164.37.238 (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

From what I can see everyone involved in the "discussions" on Talk:Balochistan, Pakistan is trying to push nationalist POV, for one side or the other, and to me Pakistani POV is no better than Indian POV or any other POV. I have just posted on the talk page (which has been on my watch list for a very long time) and told everyone to calm down, and comment on content, not other editors, I have also posted an NPA-caution on 86.164.37.238's talk page for their repeated unconstructive posts about The last Watch. Thomas.W 16:43, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• I've already blocked the IP for a week for POV/disruption (in addition to the attacks), and on the fence about blocking The last Watch for POV. It is sad, but it seems that a heavy hand is the only way to deal with these problems. He's got around 40 edits and already in a world of controversy, so I don't have much faith he will hit 100 before he gets blocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 17:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

• @Dennis Brown: His problem is that he's alone against a whole bunch of pro-Pakistani editors, both registered user accounts and a couple of newly arrived throw-away IPs, doing at least as much POV-pushing for their side, which makes his part in it seem worse than it is. And his opponents are tag teaming against him, which is how The last Watch got blocked as an IP (getting tricked into violating 1RR on Gulf War while reverting an unsourced pro-Pakistani edit on that article). Thomas.W 17:19, 23 June 2015 (UTC):::To clarify my stand here I want to point out that POV-pushing has no place here, no matter which side it's for, and that I have been fighting POV-pushing here for years, no matter what the pushing was for or against, but there seems to be too much focus on one side in this "battle", both sides in this sudden flare-up are equally guilty of POV-pushing, and should IMHO be treated/punished equally for their part in it. Thomas.W 17:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
• I ask, and ask now again, please tell how edits I make are POV? Noone say how? The last Watch (talk) 17:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I haven't gone through all of your edits, but your edits on Balochistan, Pakistan adding sourced material about human rights violations seem to me to be far less POV than the edits of your opponents who repeatedly remove every mention of such violations. Your initial edits added too much material, giving it undue weight, but having a short summary and a pointer to an existing article about it here on en-WP is not wrong, while totally removing every mention of it IMHO is POV. Thomas.W 17:32, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

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