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::::::Are you serious? Ok. I honestly thought that there would be some onus on an editor to present an opposition argument. Someone explain to me how stating "consensus hasn't changed" is a reason for not making a change. Surely those opposed to a suggestion have to provide a tangible reason as to why they are opposed? This is still off topic but here we have 2 users ganging up on me yet I am the "bully". Scolaire has raised this issue, obviously skipping some of the key events. I have presented a timeline. Let the admins decide. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
::::::Are you serious? Ok. I honestly thought that there would be some onus on an editor to present an opposition argument. Someone explain to me how stating "consensus hasn't changed" is a reason for not making a change. Surely those opposed to a suggestion have to provide a tangible reason as to why they are opposed? This is still off topic but here we have 2 users ganging up on me yet I am the "bully". Scolaire has raised this issue, obviously skipping some of the key events. I have presented a timeline. Let the admins decide. <small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 16:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)</span></small><!-- Template:Unsigned --> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->
:::::::Just to add - very odd how Dubs Boy complains above that Scolaire has been "dismissive of his input" at ], and doesn't see the irony making ] (which he knows is on a different topic relating to inseting/removing the term British Isles). His comment is clearly designed to shut down my participation and belittle/devalue any disenting voices. Looking at the history of Dubs Boy's editing, it certaing appears that he is disruptive and combative at all times and does not not the meaning of how to collegiately reach consensus and/or edit. I am not suggesting this course of action as some petty "revenge" (although no doubt it might be seen as such by some) but may I suggest (as I believe) a temporary Topic Ban on his participation at Derry related topics might be in order. Perhaps if he tries editing other topics where he is not so emotionally involved, not only will WP improve overall, but perhaps it would do him some good also. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::::Just to add - very odd how Dubs Boy complains above that Scolaire has been "dismissive of his input" at ], and doesn't see the irony making ] (which he knows is on a different topic relating to inseting/removing the term British Isles). His comment is clearly designed to shut down my participation and belittle/devalue any disenting voices. Looking at the history of Dubs Boy's editing, it certaing appears that he is disruptive and combative at all times and does not not the meaning of how to collegiately reach consensus and/or edit. I am not suggesting this course of action as some petty "revenge" (although no doubt it might be seen as such by some) but may I suggest (as I believe) a temporary Topic Ban on his participation at Derry related topics might be in order. Perhaps if he tries editing other topics where he is not so emotionally involved, not only will WP improve overall, but perhaps it would do him some good also. ]<sup>]</sup> 19:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
:::::::::And where there is 1 there is always another. Birds of a feather. Very odd that you should show up here . I honestly was just asking? I assumed that when you didn't respond that you were in fact topic banned. If you had responded with "No, I am not topic banned", then you would have nothing to worry about. In saying that, its very hard to keep up with your blocks and sockpuppettry.] (]) 19:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
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After continually being reverted by this user, I've decided that it would be best to take this to the Administrator noticeboard. Over the past several months, the user Stemoc has continually reverted my edits, for the sole reason of being disruptive. I think their latest statement made in an edit summary clearly states that they do not wish to act in a civil manner, and simply wish to violate Misplaced Pages policy outlined at WP:HOUNDING. The edit summary stated "UNDO long-term cross wiki vandal POV pusher whop uses the wiki for "self promotion"." This has continually been his reason, no matter the situation, in this case it was the addition of a different photo on the Donald Trump article which is non-controversial. (Note: There was a previous discussion at 3RR where it was agreed that I would not add photos that have already been uploaded for the sole reason of having my name in the title of the image, which I have ceased from doing. I have not broken this warning so that should not be part of this discussion.) But regardless, the user still seems to want to continue to revert my edits across several different projects, and was told to stop previously.
In a calm, measured response to a comment I left on his talk page, part of his response was to "stop acting like a pompous cry baby.." His edit summary here also indicates his unwillingness to act in a civil manner, and simply to be disruptive and revert edits without discussion. Quoting directly from WP:Wikihounding, "Wikihounding is the singling out of one or more editors, and joining discussions on multiple pages or topics they may edit or multiple debates where they contribute, in order to repeatedly confront or inhibit their work. This is with an apparent aim of creating irritation, annoyance or distress to the other editor. Wikihounding usually involves following the target from place to place on Misplaced Pages." As recent as a few moments ago, the user began participating in a discussion I created in order to gain a consensus on which image would be best at Jeb Bush. The user then personally attacked me stating "its Not a Communist regime either so we won't keep using your poor images all the time" to a comment I left in a related section where people began voting, despite policy that states Misplaced Pages is not a democracy. In that discussion, it was found that a different image was best to use, and I did not revert or try to disrupt that decision.
The user has had similar complaints left on his talk page, after he told another user to "get glasses" when trying to add a photo he uploaded in this instance. Here is part of the exchange...
“
No you LISTEN, you are the ONLY PERSON in the WHOLE of WIKIPEDIA that has a problem with the GOOD IMAGE being used. I tried solving it amicably but you decide to change the IMAGE again for the UMPTEENTH TIME, you REFUSE to a have ANY DISCUSSION but continuously KEEP changing the image, the post to have a discussion BARELY lasted 48 hours BEFORE you changed the IMAGE yet AGAIN... You are a VANDAL and I will NOW REPORT you....I wrote those in CAPS LOCK cause you seem to be blind or something ...
”
If that isn't a case against WP:Civility then I don't know what is. He has been warned for his uncivil behavior several times already, and yet they just ignore it and begin writing in uppercase and attempting shame others from editing. It also seems that he is doing the same thing that he accuses me of, as he is adding his own uploaded images to articles, without any sort of discussion, whether controversial or not, and most of the time without a reason given in his edit summary. I highly suggest reviewing his edit history, and his talk page.
Again, if this isn't a case of someone overstepping the line of civility, engaging in disruptive editing, campaigning to drive away productive contributors, and intentionally hounding someone's specific edits, then I don't know what is.
Here are links to edits where the user has reverted me in a hounding manner.
Expect an accusational response from the user being reported saying that I'm adding my own photos as self promotion. This is not the case, and is not a violation of any policy anyway. As of recent, I have made sure to include clear edit summaries stating why I am changing a specific image, and created discussions in order to come to a consensus on which image would be preferred. Stemoc is simply acting in a disruptive manner no matter what discussion takes place, and no matter what my edit summary reasoning was for changing a specific image. Calibrador (talk) 13:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Before I begin, please remember that User:Calibrador was previously known as Gage Skidmore and he changed his name yesterday just so that he can knowingly continue to enforce his images into articles without setting off any alarm bells..Infact, just before changing his name, his last few edits involved enforcinghisownimagesintoarticles and rightafterusurpation, he continues to do the same. The use has over the years continually used wikipedia for WP:SELFPROMOTION to an extent of removing better images for his own poor ones just so that he can use wikipedia to promote himself financially. The Quote he linked above was to another editor that is available on my talk page and it has already been solved "amicably" but he has linked it here trying to make people think that my comment was targeted at him..... I'm not in the habit of REMOVING other people's comments about him removing other images and replacing them with his.. He even threatened me on Wikimedia Commons to not upload his images from flickr which are under a free licence and as per Commons policy can be uploaded for use on wikipedia...The user has a long history of violation WP:COI and just by going through the users contribution history here, it will all be made clear. I'm NOT Hounding the user as he claims, I just found his "vandalism" unbearable and decided to take action by reverting them as he refuses to follow policies in regards to discussing his changes. Its either HIS images be USED on those articles or NO IMAGES and he will blatantly revert anyone else who decides to use a less controversial or better image...WP:CIVIL goes both ways and if admins refuse to warn and discipline this user who has previously been reported here in May, then this will be ongoing. The user is abusing our Terms of Use as was discussed in May on my talk page. He may not be a paid editor but he is using Misplaced Pages for Financial gain and that is against one of our policies as photographers get paid for the use of their images as tou can see here and quote
“
Gage Skidmore is a professional photographer currently based in the Phoenix metropolitan area. He began his career covering politics in 2009, covering the U.S. Senate campaign of ophthalmologist Rand Paul. Since then, he has been involved with a variety of organizations and campaigns, including the Arizona Chamber of Commerce & Industry, ASU Center for Political Thought & Leadership, Campaign for Liberty Foundation, Reason Magazine, Western Center for Journalism, and has been published in the Washington Post, Associated Press, Politico, and Forbes.
Media/business inquiries: gtskidmore@hotmail.com
”
If wikimedia blatantly allows someone to use the site to serve their personal monetary gain then this is not a place I want to be...I have been fighting Spammers and vandals across wikimedia since 2007 and users like him are the worst as they can usually get away with it..........oh and ofcourse you are Gage, do NOT deny it cause whats worse than violators are those that blatantly lie about it--Stemoc13:53, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Please do not attempt to destroy my character, you are getting very close to libel with your false accusations. I have never made a penny from my involvement with Misplaced Pages. Your response also screams a great level of paranoia. Calibrador (talk) 14:03, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
False accusation?, you accuse me of WP:HOUNDing you and when i point out that you are using WIKIPEDIA for your own personal MONETARY gain, I'm destroying your character?. You Intentionally enforce your images so that you can tell your "clients" about you work using Misplaced Pages as a reference for your OWN personal and monetary gain and when users remove your pics and replace or update it with one that is BETTER, you revert them cause you want ONLY your images with you name at the END of every image name because you are a humanitarian and you love wikipedia and you are helping the wiki out of the goodness of your heart?, is thats what you are telling me?....Never made a a penny, who do you think uses all the images that get added to wikipedia?, newsites and other websites and I won't be surprised if they pay you for the use of the images, oh and lets not forget, free publicity..Just admit it and stop lying please....--Stemoc14:18, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Stemoc, it's not clear to me how Calibrador is financially benefiting from Misplaced Pages. You link to his Flickr bio it doesn't refer to Misplaced Pages at all. And then you reference an article where not only is Misplaced Pages not mentioned but it states he posts all of his photos to Flickr under a Creative Commons license, making them available free of charge as long as he’s credited. and only charges for-profit publications for his work.
I can see how you could make an argument that Calibrador prefers using photos he has taken over other photos but you haven't presented evidence that he is financially benefiting from donating his photos to Misplaced Pages. Liz14:38, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
That is how publicity works Liz, let put it this way, his images get noticed, he gets called up by someone famous and they ask him to do a 'photoshoot" for which he gets paid and at the same time he has to insure he gets noticed, Flickr is now ranked 130 odd but Misplaced Pages is STILL one of the top 10 websites in the world, so where are you more likely to get noticed?..Previously, when adding image a to articles, he used to add his name into the captions in infoboxes as well..just search through his edits in 2014 and you will find it which is how i actually noticed him in the first place..--Stemoc15:40, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I never did that, and I have never booked a photo shoot with anyone. How many times do you have to be told to stop making false accusations? Calibrador (talk) 15:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I have mentioned it on my talk page many times that i use Caps and Bold for "emphasis" only on certain words, I'm not "Shouting"..and also why would you even accept what i said is fact because if it is , and I know it is, it means you have been violating our policies for years and have been getting away with it and you got your named changed just so that its not directly seen as a WP:COI which it is.Note: I havea shitty internet conenct adn moving to https has MADE IT WORSE so i cannot reply here anymore, i have already had 16 edit conflicts on this thread, please take anything else regarding me to to my talk page..I'm unable to post on pages larger than 150kbs (my net speed on enwiki is about 8kbps)--Stemoc14:49, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
A month ago I reported Gage Calibrador at ANEW so I'm not the only one to have an issue although since that report I've simply given up with the image-removal as I knew one way or another I'd end up being blocked, I still believe Gage Calibrador is using the image-titles as a way to promote himself. –Davey201014:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Since that discussion, I have agreed to use edit summaries, discuss, and come to a consensus when changing an image is seen as controversial. Calibrador (talk) 14:36, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
That's great but the image thing is still an issue - No one would have an issue with your uploads if you just uploaded them as say "X at X.jpg" but surely you can see adding your name on the end of every image you upload does come across as self promotion and people are bound to have an issue with that. –Davey201014:44, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I would note that I do not even link to my Flickr when I upload my own photos, like when others upload my images. If anything Stemoc is the one promoting my photos. Calibrador (talk) 14:48, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm NOT promoting your images, I'm giving you "attribution" which is according to Commons policy regarding image uploads, so this is "attribution" as I have not only uploaded one of your images but given you credit as well as added the image to your private category, there is no need for me to do that but i do it nevertheless cause i go by the rules and follow the policies, you don't...your image uploads are always promotional--Stemoc15:32, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Calibrador, you are adding photos with file names such as "William Lee Golden by Gage Skidmore.jpg". If you are a professional photographer, I think such file names are advertising your work. Many professional do contribute some of their images to WP, and in a sense it may be a form of advertising , because they are attributed in the meta data--but we have always regarded this as not just permissible, but a good incentive to get some high quality images. However, putting your professional identity in the file name does not seem like a good idea. I do not work all that much with images,and I do not know if it is against our rules for images, but I personally think that it certainly should be. If you want to avoid accusations of promotionalism, you might want to go back and rename them. DGG ( talk ) 03:39, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Let me first say that e might have gone a bit off-track. However, having your name in the file name is not against any policies or guidelines (ot terms for that metter). If I wanted I could name a file "File:X at Y (thank you C0mpany Z for this great event).jpg" and intentionally advertise, but that alone isn't proof of any wrongdoing. (In the Creative Commons terms however there is a clause about "titles of works" and that they should be used. If the creator wishes they be names one way...)
Back to the issue at hand regarding if Cometstyles Stemoc is violating multiple policies on civility, I would say that this is a clear case. Even if the edits are somehow justified, they are HOUNDing in nature. This should not be acceptable. (There should be a clause like this in 3RR regarding reverting over multiple articles...) (t) Josve05a (c) 04:15, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
Its Ok to do that to a few image but that uploader has added more than 8000 images with that byline, just do a simple "by Gage Skidmore" on commons if you don't believe me. This is PROMOTIONAL. When someone adds an article about themselves or add links to their private websites, they are straightaway reverted, warned and in severr cases BLOCKED for spamming..this is one form of spamming..we may have different rules for articles and images but they both have the same outcome...The problem isn't the use of "by Gage Skidmore" tag in all his images, the problem is intentionally replacing other better and current images with his own on MAJOR article to boost his own stand and even without discussion as one user pointed above about the lack of using 'edit summaries'. Josve05, you are aware of my involvement in cross-wiki related spamming and vandalism and there isn't a day where i do NOT delete spamming on the 2 wikis i have adminship on....I see this as "blatant promotional/spamming" and though my involvement on enwikipedia has been limited since i returned (my own choosing), I will NOT turn a blind eye to it cause you may not see it as such but its blatant abuse of our policies....and again, reverting someone who keeps violating our policies does not make me a "Wiki HOUNDER"..I'm reverting what i see as blatant vandalism..the user has even gone to an extent of getting his name changed to make it easier to add his images without anyone pointing fingers..it would be nice if admins did their job as this user has been brought to this board now 3 times over the last 2 months and still has not faced any consequences to this actions...--Stemoc14:05, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I think this is a case of "everyone but myself" is at fault, and I'm a "social warrior" for trying to save Misplaced Pages from something that is not against the rules, and I'll keep link WP:Selfpromotion, even though none of what is mentioned on that page applies. Could an admin please weigh in on this situation so that falsehoods aren't spread again? Calibrador (talk) 14:21, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
The self promotion policy may see to be only related for articles but it applies to everything on wikimedia, self PROMOTION is self promotion, either your promote yourself, your company, your interests or your stuff, its Promotion and by deliberately removing other people images with yours IS self promotion...Do I need to make this any more clear?..--Stemoc15:28, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I would note that Stemoc is also currently reported at 3RR for reverting one of the articles five times within a 24 hour span. They were also warned by an admin for harassment. Calibrador (talk) 15:33, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
and more lies, I was neither "warned " by an admin (toonlucas22 is not an admin) but it was a mistake on his part as he was not aware of this thread nor the previous identity of Calibrador and on the 3RR one which Gage Skidmore linked above...and also, I have not violated 3RRand nor do I intend too..--Stemoc15:56, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
That part was my mistake, I thought he was an admin. I do have to correct the false statement that was made about 3RR, though, as Stemoc reverted an article to their version five times in a row, within (approximately) a 24 hour span. It was just slightly outside the window, but still applies. Calibrador (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm going to keep this open until Stemoc and Calibrador return from their 24 hour blocks. I'd like to hear some proposals, as there's potentially an issue with Calibrador's behaviour, and in turn there's definitely an issue with Stemoc's behaviour. It would be good to get it sorted out with the minimum of fuss, rather than just closing this thread and having a repeat with either Stemoc or another user raising similar complaints in the next few days and weeks.
I'd think the sensible suggestion here would be that Calibrador is either restricted from removing an existing image from a page and replacing it with an image he has taken/uploaded himself unless discussion has taken place prior to the switching of images, and consensus is in favour of the change, or there's a 1RR restriction, so he can make the switch without discussion, but if it's reverted, it needs to be discussed before the edit can be reinstated. If a page lacks an image, then Calibrador can add any image he so wishes. It's important to say at this time that we do appreciate the time and effort he puts into taking and uploading photographs BUT other photographers, both professional and amateur do exactly the same, and in the interests of fairness, we want to see good images from a wide range of different photographers being used on the project, this in turn encourages image contributions from other photographers. Every photographer who takes good images should have an expectation of their images being used by another project and that their images will be chosen fairly, without bias, and on the merit of the photograph and its content, composition and appropriateness for the article. Calibrador's behaviour isn't really allowing that to happen right now. Nick (talk) 09:25, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
It is, he is trying to keep his talk page clean so that paying clients don't ask about his block, anyways thanks for pointing out the previous discussion involving him JustDaFax, maybe I should have pointed this out at the very top of the thread and saved myself a lot of time, the admin in that discussion EdJohnston warned him not to re-offend, and he did....many times actually..I'm tired of this cause I did not come back after retiring just so that I get involved in MORE wikidrama, I have no issue with this, I just do not like POV pushers regardless of who they might be ...I hope an admin comes with a solution soon which will stop this from happening again..--Stemoc00:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Umm Stemoc I mentioned the report right above so I'm not sure how you missed it , That said even if it was mentioned right up the top it wouldn't made a blind bit of difference unfortunately . –Davey201001:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Say, Davey2010 could you ping those editors mentioned in your report, that had issues with Cali/Gage? They are likely not aware of this ANI complaint that is now in a state of WP:BOOMERANG and may well shed some light on why they had concerns. Thanks. Jusdafax07:39, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Agree, completely, with Nick's suggestion. It seems to be the most sensible and fair solution. I would be more in favour of the 1RR suggestion; it's not prohibitively restrictive (and doesn't discourage further contributions), but it reigns in any excessive promotional behaviour and forces him to seek consensus with other editors if they take issue with his revisions. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 01:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Indef block for Calibrador - Quinto, that type of sanction is only effective if Cali/Gage sees the continuing errors of his ways, and acts on them. He's been warned repeatedly to no avail, even reverting the block message on his Talk page when warned not to. Stemoc is likely right, Cali/Gage has deep reasons for his Talk page scrubbage. I say indef the character, at least until we get a serious commitment to reform that he can be held to. He's been gaming the system here for too long and shows no intention of stopping. Jusdafax01:22, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Indef Calibrador - I'm probably not going to be liked for this but the editor has caused enough problems and I think the 1RR won't solve anything at all, We could go down the 1RR route but he'd end up being reported at ANEW and then it'll be this discussion all over again and he'd end up being blocked - Once unblocked we'll be doing it all over again. Indef seems a better and wiser idea IMHO. –Davey201001:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Agree -- In complete agreement with Nick here. The 1RR proposal for Calibrador makes a lot of sense. However if that doesn't work an indef seems like the only other option. -- Shudde05:28, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I can understand 1RR and renaming of the files to remove his name (per DGG's comment), but before this last Bbb23 block for edit warring, he's never been blocked, and he has over 25,000 edits behind him. Indef blocking is excessive at this stage. Dennis Brown - 2¢17:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
A lot of that was to get him to respond, which he's now doing, if less than satisfactorily. But Dennis, it's my firm belief that if he gets off with 1RR and renaming, he's getting off easy. I really don't want to go wading through his edits, just to find more examples. We are already at TL,DR. Davey 2010 has it right. Jusdafax20:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Current and past problems with Calibrador, formerly Gage Skidmore: suggest extending current BOOMERANG with indef block
Good double block, and I share Nick's concerns. By the way, isn't this diff above in this very ANI complaint (!) using "very close to libel" as an implied legal threat in violation of WP:LEGAL, as well the use of the term "paranoia" an attack on the mental condition of the editor Cali/Gage has brought to this board? If so, wouldn't a continued block of C/G be protective in nature?
In any case, I've had some troubling issues with Cali/Gage Skidmore at the L.A. Reid article. In brief, he lies, distorts, ignores and in general does whatever needful to get what he wants. My involvement began in 2012 when I cordially welcomed him to the page while expressing concerns about his captioning. He gave no reply.
In August 2013, he repeatedly inserts his own photography as the infobox photo and refuses to reply on his Talk page or on the article Talk page when I attempted again to discuss. When challenged, he lied in his edit summary saying, as clearly shown in this diff that I had reverted him without explaining, which the diff shows my edit summary had, and that I was in violation of WP:OWN, when in fact I had repeatedly asked for Cali/Gage to discuss the matter.
I also noticed others had similar issues and Cali/Gage failed to respond to them either. Finally in disgust I walked away from what I felt was an unpleasant and manipulative editing experience. And this editor has a serious set of issues, as noted above, and in his warning at AN just last month, also as noted above. He's a fine photographer, but we can do without his hostile gamesmanship and relentless self-promotion, in my view. Jusdafax12:47, 22 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment The use of "very close to libel" once probably shouldn't be construed as a legal threat per WP:LEGAL. I don't really see enough diffs to support this strong of an action. I started looking through some of his photos and they are quite good. Personally, I think it would be a shame to loose his future contributions. --I am One of Many (talk) 05:59, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Reply - Not to go all Wikilawyer on you but the pertinent paragraph in that policy: It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as legal threats against them or against Misplaced Pages, even if the comments are not intended in that fashion. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are "defamatory" or "libelous", that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue for defamation, even if this is not intended. To avoid this frequent misunderstanding, use less charged wording (such as “That statement about me is not true and I hope it will be corrected for the following reasons...”) to avoid the perception that you are threatening legal action for defamation. As for photographers, he's good but not good enough to allow his brinksmanship and outright bad faith editing to continue, in my view. Jusdafax06:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment I don't think you are Wikilawyering at all. I just think his phrase "very close to libel" is not quite the same as saying it was "libelous" nor did he do it repeatedly. I think before an indef block is decided, there should be more discussion about whether adding his name to the end of file names is a serious issue. --I am One of Many (talk) 06:33, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Darn it - that's not the only issue, as I demonstrate in this section just above. He's been abusing the place for years. You're right, the word "repeatedly" is in the policy too. But, now that he's unblocked, what does he do? Wipes his Talk page clean, and ignores the issues raised here. He does not apologize, does not comment, just up and vanishes. You OK with that? Why? Because he takes good pictures? Jusdafax06:52, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't disagree with you that there are serious issues. I just did Google search in images for "Gage Skidmore" and it returns pages of his photos. So, maybe 1RR or 0RR would be a better starting point for now? --I am One of Many (talk) 07:01, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I think the first thing we all need to agree to is to get him to talk. He has a well-established history of avoiding discussion. That has to stop. Indef him, he's forced to face the music on his pristine talk page. He can answer questions there, express contrition and understanding of our policies, etc. Seriously, he must not be given a slap on the wrist and turned loose again on the project. Enough is enough. Jusdafax07:30, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Calibrador response
If you look at my more recent edits, aside from accidentally reverting too many times on one article without knowing (trust me, it was my mistake), I have begun using edit summaries, tried to seek consensus, and mostly tried to avoid conflict. Stemoc reverted several different edits over several different pages within a short span of time simply for the fact that he believes I am somehow a COI violator. What should I really have done differently? I tried to include discussion, and a clear edit summary at every opportunity.
I sincerely apologize for my past indiscretions, I have seen the error of ways in the past about not discussing changes seen as controversial. I don't need to be punished in order to see that, I see it clearly already. Also, I did not disappear, and inviting everyone that has had something bad to say about me with no one on the other side to defend me is a little biased.
The main issue that was at heart here that was underblown because Stemoc enjoys making a lot of noise, and crying COI at every possible chance, is the WP:Wikihounding and uncivil nature of their edits. I have no idea why this has changed into a discussion about me. I've realized my edits in the past were disruptive, and if you look at my edits recently, I made sure to include an edit summary in nearly every contribution, and when necessary, created or participated in discussion. This includes the 3RR that I accidentally got myself into without realizing, I created a discussion on the talk page, and included a reason for making the edit in my edit summary. Unfortunately that was completely ignored by Stemoc in favor of COI accusations, and stating that I'm profiting from Misplaced Pages, which I have not ever. I suggest concentrating on that rather than my past mistakes which I apologize for, and have tried to amend. Calibrador (talk) 11:51, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Also the thing on my talk page was a mistake, I did not know about that policy, and when it was re-added, I accidentally thought someone re-added it to my talk page just to rub it in or something like that, I didn't look at the history page until after I had made the edit. My mistake once again. As for now, all users have control over their talk page, I think Stemoc is once again assuming bad faith, and made another COI allegation that was unfounded. I don't want to distract from the main issue though that I think has not even been addressed yet, so please discuss Stemoc's offenses. Calibrador (talk) 12:03, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I actually found Gage creating this article really odd until I did a bit of research and found out that he is somewhat of a "follower" and then i found this..should we now assume Gage is a Paid editor as well cause your edits related to Rand Paul sure looks a lot like public relations work..no? So you use the wiki to push your own agendas, create articles on stuff which again boosts your own career and then you lie about it and then come here and blame me for foiling you? Just claim that you are a political photographer and you are doing all this just to boost your own career and this will all be over...Heck, you even uploaded a new yet poor picture of Donald trump because you didn't like the one I added as it wasn't one of 'yours'...When i first came across you a few years ago, I thought you were a hero for adding HQ pics of celebs and politicians free of charge, boy was I wrong and yet even when multiple users above have claimed that you have been 'gaming' the system, you still deny it and deflect it back to me...Honestly, if all this does not result in a ban or a block for you, I worry that you will do it all over again cause honestly, I do not think you joined wikipedia to help grow the database and you have no intentions whatsoever to follow our policies if they contradict with your ambitions and you have already been on the Edit Warring notice board 3 times over the last 50 days and yet you keep blaming others and refuse to accept that you made mistake after mistake and you even blanked your talk page twice even after 2 admins warned you not to and then you blanked it again the 3rd time just 10 minutes after your block was lifted..Why would anyone not worried about their image do that?...If you somehow walked away from this with just a slap on your hand then this would mean Misplaced Pages has failed...--Stemoc13:02, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Please stop stalking my edits and crying COI. You've made your same point over and over and over, I'd like an admin opinion on your behavior, not your same opinion. Calibrador (talk) 13:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
No doubt, Stemoc has his own issues. But this is the first I've heard of this Rand Paul article, which opens a new and distressing window on your POV pushing activities, Calibrador. Leaving that aside for the moment, as well as your excuses for blanking the block notices on your talk page repeatedly, which strain credulity since you are saying you didn't read the admin postings at all, we come to the issues I have delineated in detail above. You have posted a lot of words here. Not a single one addresses my specific and documented concerns, and those of others who have further concerns. So is this the best you can do? A "sweat promise" to now, after years, act like most decent Wikipedians, and actually use edit summaries, actually seek consensus? Now that major sanctions are under discussion here, I challenge you to address the charges that have been brought forward. Jusdafax13:47, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I thought I addressed them? I admit I should have participated in discussion in the past instead of acting in a cold manner. I hardly even remember the incident you are talking about in regards to the LA Reid article. FWIW, that was not my photo, I did not take it. I was acting like any other editor looking for a better image that was freely available on Flickr, and thought that better illustrated the subject of the article, and thought it was weird that a photo with someone else in the photo that was years older was preferred. I did not look at the article history you linked, I'm just going by memory. Not sure what else I can say, but I'd very much like a response to Stemoc's behavior, as absolutely no one with any authority has had anything to say about their hounding and uncivil behavior that I documented in my original report. Calibrador (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Also, not to make this any sort of issue, but I just looked at the article, and would note that the photo that I added is now the photo that is universally used to illustrate the article across Misplaced Pages projects, and not as a result of me. Someone else did that. I really have no memory of that situation though, it was several years ago. I know I was in the wrong on that though, so I apologize. Calibrador (talk) 14:05, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
The fact that GageSkidmore/Calibrador suddenly changed his username is an indication that his intentions here are likely less than good faith. I really don't see a pressing issue at all with Stemoc, but with GageSkidmore/Calibrador we see a user who is all about self-promotion, and in many regards, whose motivations, i.e. Rand Paul book, etc. are questionable. He likes to ensure his pictures retain precedence over all others; yes, he takes many pictures that are free-use, and that is good. But many of his pictures aren't of article quality and composition, and he many times fights for ones that are the least worth inclusion. There have been problems in the past, and I see them again. He likes making great streams of edits on pages, rather than carefully consolidating his efforts, he continues to put 'by Gage Skidmore' on every single picture uploaded to the commons, obvious self promotion, and his consistent efforts to evade (name change and notification deletes) demonstrate his negative impact here. Spartan7W§14:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
I would just like to note that I stole that idea from David Shankbone, should we bring David Shankbone to AN/I? The stream of edits that I think you are referring to were an effort to try to control my own content. Many (not all) of the photos that were uploaded from my photostream were cropped very poorly, or were not the best one to illustrate an article in my opinion. Most (not all) of my recent photo additions were replacing of my own photos with an alternate crop, or slightly different color, sharpness, etc. Some mistook that as simply uploading the same photo with a different title, but that was not the case, people were adding my photos to Misplaced Pages unknowingly to me, and I wasn't particularly a fan of the way they looked, however minor it was. I don't specifically recall very many instances where a "stream" of edits other than that one instance where it was controversial and someone took notice of it. After I was brought to the noticeboard, I did not continue that behavior. Despite what you may think, I'm capable of learning from my mistakes. As was the case with the recent noticeboard discussion, and is the reason I used an edit summary and created discussions on several recent articles. Unfortunately that was disrupted by Stemoc who reverted several different edits across several different pages, crying COI and that I'm somehow being paid to edit Misplaced Pages, how exactly should I have responded to that other than the way that I did? In the first few instances on one specific page, I reverted with a descriptive edit summary stating my opposition to the revert of my edit, and also included a talk page post. That post was met with a paragraph of COI accusations. In the end, another user, PrairieKid reverted the page back to my version twice more when Stemoc reverted it to their version. The fact that I overstepped 3RR was an accident on my part, I understand that policy very clearly, I would not have overstepped that if I had known the first edit I made also counted as a revert, I was simply re-adding official portraits that were replaced for some reason unknown to me. In regards to the Paul thing, I would simply consider myself an expert on the topic, the book article was added because I was trying to keep it consistent with the previous two book articles. Not sure what you were trying to imply with that, especially since the article is not written in a biased manner. I don't believe I've ever made any sort of NPOV edits to anything Paul related, if I did that was a mistake, but I do not believe I did. The only thing I can think of are stylistic article choices. Calibrador (talk) 14:35, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
Really Shankbone? the guy that took random celebrity pics and never had a COI or ever pushed his POV across wikimedia? only a handful of his celebrity pics were with his name in the image title which i mentioned above, we ALLOW...not 100% of his images..He rarely if at all replaced someone's images with his own unless it was outdated and I doubt he made a single-cent out of doing this..I would be really surprised if he was ever dragged onto any of the WP:AN boards..and again, you are deflecting..Now you are claiming that users like Lady Lotus and I made "bad" crops?. Are you seriously suggesting that for example, this image by Lady Lotus was so "badly cropped" than you just had to replace it with this image of yours? or replacethis with your cropped version or replacethis image with one of yours for the exact same reason.. I don't think you care about the quality of your images cause if you did and you thought your version was BETTER, you would have uploaded your version over the "same image" that you were trying to replace, instead of uploading a same if not similar crop with again, your name in the image title...I have told you on multiple occasion that if any user on enwiki or commons finds an image on flick with a free licence and they find there is a need for that image on ANY of the 700 odd wikis we have (300 of which are wikipedias), they will freely be allowed to upload that image to commons so if you have a problem with it, please, feel free to change the license of your images on flickr to ARR (All Rights Reserved) but at the same time, you won't be allowed to upload those images here either without scrutiny....and regarding the PrairieKid edit, If you actually see the history, he changed an image because another user reverted my edit because he didn't understand why my "revert" of your edit was a "self-promotion" because you had your name changed which is why you did it (you can lie about it many times but we all know why)..infact there was no 3RR by me but I accepted the block because I felt that maybe NOW people might see exactly what I have been saying all along, I don't have to repeat myself again as everything i have said is listed above..You may not see it but even though you have been around since 2009, you still refuse to understand or follow our policies so you have not only violated one, but MANY of our policies over the years and you only got away with it because of your name. I have listed a few of your violations above and on the 3RR thread which you keep going back too, this board is NOT for 3RR....this board is about your attitude on this wiki and how you deal (or lack thereof) with other users and your ability (on inability) to both understand or follow our polices and your insistence of claiming over and over again that you are the victim here when its clear that you are not....So instead of deflecting to me, why don't you tell us why an admin should not block you? and P.S, I'm NOT Hounding you, I'm getting you to talk because over the last 6 years you have been on this wiki, you REFUSE to talk when posed a question and you always ignore hierarchy on this wiki and now when you have this opportune time to save yourself, you deflect, passing the blame onto someone else without realizing that this will only make it worse for you....the only reason I'm replying to your posts is because you keep mentioning my name and pointing fingers at me, i know how to defend myself since I have been in similar situation a few times....Everytime I post, I added more proof regarding your edits, and everytime you posts, its just more accusations hurled at me without an ounce of proof and yet, I'm the one hounding him as you claim....anyways I have wasted too much time on this, I have better things to do across wikimedia--Stemoc00:37, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Stemoc, first off, you gotta learn to not slap up these giant text walls that make the average editor's eyes glaze over, and tone down your use of caps. That said, it appears to me you have a number of decent points. There is no doubt that Cali/Gage has utterly and repeatedly failed for years now to discuss and come to consensus, except when he is lying, which I document above. I'm hoping by keeping this thread open that others will come forth, so we can establish what kind of sanctions Cali/Gage will be facing. There is growing consensus something has to be done. Cool out, man. Jusdafax02:07, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Haha, yeah can't help it bro, once I have something to talk about, my wall can be higher than the Great Wall of China..I actually cut myself short there cause most of the things that needed to be said has already been said....I have mentioned a few times that i use Bolds or Caps or "quotes" for "emphasis" only, I'm not really "shouting"..I agree, this has dragged far too long and needs to be solved once and for all...I have no interests in making edits to the wikipedia-space as i prefer most if not all my edits to be on the main space..--Stemoc02:36, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
I was notified about this discussion on my talk page. I do not favor an indefinite block of Gage Skidmore (the username change was in bad faith, however, and should be reversed imo). Though he has demonstrated a strong POV against notable minor candidates for office as I documented here, my main issue with Skidmore is his lack of communication, specifically his refusal to discuss contentious edits he makes in furtherance of his POV. Nevertheless, based on what he has written above, I believe he has the potential to change. He adds great content to articles and wikipedia should not eliminate his ability to do so through an indefinite block. A 1RR restriction seems like a fair remedy. This may encourage him to discuss his edits (as part of the WP:BRD method) rather than reverting reverts without providing any justification.--William S. Saturn (talk) 06:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for interaction ban
At this point I think it would be very wise to consider implementing an interaction ban between myself and Stemoc, I don't conceive this ever resolving amicably as far as their prerogative goes, so I think this would be the best way to not be disruptive. Calibrador (talk) 15:44, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose such interaction ban since the only one to benefit from it would be the proposer himself, who would get rid of a vocal critic. Criticism that IMO is justified, because like many others here I see Calibrador's activities as using Misplaced Pages for promotion. Thomas.W16:05, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - Yup Thomas's hit the nail on the head - WP:IBAN states and I quote "The purpose of an interaction ban is to stop a conflict between two or more editors that cannot be otherwise resolved - There is no conflict - It's simply one (well actually quite alot) of editors unhappy with you and your self promotion here. –Davey201017:51, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment If they were civil about it, I wouldn't have made the request. Unfortunately they are one of the most uncivil people I have ever had interaction with. Calibrador (talk) 20:15, 24 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose - per Thomas W. I'm fed up, obviously. As I comment above, Stemoc's off-putting delivery is annoying, and post-block, he needs to cool that down. But Stemoc's got some valid points, and I for one am glad he's making the push to inform the wider community about Calibrador's promotional and conflicted edit history. This self-serving proposal merely continues that pattern, and coming in the midst of an ongoing discussion of boomerang sanctions against Calibrador, is arguably disruptive. Cali/Gage has clearly learned nothing from the way this thread has gone. If this is the best he can do, indef him, and we can discuss it without his attempts to turn the discussion. Jusdafax02:17, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for a ban on Calibrador/Gage Skidmore to add his name as author/photographer to articles on en-WP
Per Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits we should notcredit the image author or copyright holder in the article, unless relevant to the subject, but just having taken a photo of the subject of an article does not IMO make the photographer "relevant to the subject". So I propose a ban on Calibrador/Skidmore to add his name as creator/author/photographer to articles on the English language Misplaced Pages, whether it's done in the image caption, as a footnote, as a reference (yes I've seen his name added as <ref>Author: Gage Skidmore</ref> to articles, so that his name appears among the references at the bottom of the page, see Matt Groening) or in any other way. Having his name on the image page, visible when clicking the image, should be more than enough. Several proposals to add image attributions to articles have been made through the years, but all have AFAIK failed, so we should go by what MOS says, that is no image attribution unless relevant to the subject of the article. Thomas.W16:07, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment Any actual mention of my name in an article, whether that includes a reference like you mentioned, or in the caption, was not done by me, and I oppose that as well. Calibrador (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Not moaning but I guess Arbcom's better than no action at all, I wish an admin would deal with it tho but there we go. –Davey201022:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Gone through this 3 times so definitely won't go through it the 4th time, An admin should deal with this now..as i said before, I have no time for this type of stupidity and also, this is not ArbCom worthy as its an open and shut case of policy violation..any high ranking and uninvolved admin should post a verdict in the next few days as this has dragged far too long....--Stemoc03:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Lot more than one edit now, and it's really a pain having to go and undo all their reversions that don't have edit summaries. There is a serious WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT issue going on. Conifer (talk) 21:41, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Blocked three weeks. This unexplained revert was not reverting vandalism. In fact, the added content just repeats a sourced item in the filmography list. It's excusable to miss that, but continuing to treat good faith edits as vandalism is not on. --NeilN01:15, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
battleground behavior and general uncivility by RGloucester
The latest from RGloucester (talk·contribs) is his refusal to accept the outcome of the Hillary Rodham Clinton → Hillary Clinton move discussion. This was a long drawn out discussion but consensus was quite clearly in favor of moving it. He has since been edit warring over the name in the infobox,, , , . He has now announced his plans on the article talk page to do another move request to change it back. After a chorus of people opposing such an idea, he made this edit indicating he believes that only his opinion is correct and that he WILL eventually get his way.
This is not the first time he has made such statements that things WILL go his way, which I feel is an intimidation tactic. He frequently makes demands and refuses to accept when things do not go his way, such as this checkuser request.
Additionally, he's being extremely uncivil at the Village Pump. He has violated WP:NPA by telling someone they are inferior and to accept their "station" in life . What I find most bizarre is that he stated that "God has spoken to you and your cause through me, and I've said what he intended in a clear manner." He also believes that nobody on Misplaced Pages has any rights to protest anything (which I suppose he does not feel applies to him). He has been blocked four or five times this year already (despite his claims that "someone who is right can never be blocked.") ) and his antics frequently feature on Reddit. I feel something needs to be done about this user, unless he specifically states his willingness to work with other editors, that he will accept consensus when things don't go his way, and that he agrees he is not the messenger of God on Misplaced Pages. —Мандичка 😜 16:38, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
@BD2412: it's actually a larger issue regarding one editor in particular and not specific to the Hillary Clinton article - there are other editors involved with the HC infobox argument. I think there is a larger and ongoing issue that needs to be addressed with RGloucester. —Мандичка 😜 16:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Concur with —Мандичка. It's related, but RGloucester's battleground behavior and attitude deserve special attention. I would hope a warning would suffice. --В²C☎17:00, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
@Wikimandia: Well, there seems to be a cycle where a warning is given or a "break" is imposed every few months or so. Given that's how it seems to be "addressed" on each occasion, I'm not too sure if it will be any different if the thread is down here or merged as a sub-thread into the above discussion. Ncmvocalist (talk) 17:03, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment - User:RGloucester is an editor who polarizes the community, who has supporters and opponents. "The community" at this noticeboard has never done a good job of dealing with divisive or polarizing editors. If anyone thinks that this editor really needs to be sanctioned, they can go to ArbCom. I concur with the criticism of his sometimes extreme self-righteousness, as in his statements that he may not be blocked because he is right; but the community at this noticeboard has never dealt effectively with polarizing editors. In the case of his comments at Village pump (miscellaneous), my interpretation is that he has forgotten that, on the Internet, no one knows that you are being sarcastic. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:10, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I strongly disagree that being "polarizing" ought to be grounds for any action against an editor whatsoever. In this case, there are plenty of other specific grounds for action, without resorting to a vague charge of polarization, which could be used against any editor who has a mind of his own, and honestly says what he thinks. In this particular situation, RGloucester is simply being dishonest retaliatory. He is planning to move the article not simply because it should be moved, but explicitly in retaliation against "Certain editors have taken to the war path, ignoring Misplaced Pages policies, guidelines, and common sense. They attempt to eradicate the word 'Rodham', as if said word were vulgar." There would be no suggestion to again do an article move but for continuing efforts to remove "Rodham" from locations other than the article title. There is no need to point here to "polarization" because we can point to more specific bad behavior. Retaliatory editing is always bad behavior.Anythingyouwant (talk) 18:15, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment - It should be noted that American political edits are under discretionary sanctions per the new ArbCom ruling. To quote, standard discretionary sanctions are authorized for all edits about, and all pages related to post-1932 politics of the United States and closely related people. If RG has been made aware of these sanctions I just informed him of the discretionary sanctions (), WP:AE would be the appropriate venue to air grievances and allegations of wrongdoing. EvergreenFir(talk) Please {{re}} 17:40, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Can someone please explain exactly what this means to me? Does this mean that all post-1933 U.S. politics articles are under 1RR, or what?... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:51, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
This thread is a nonsense. First of all, I have not "edit-warred" with anyone over anything. I've not edited the article in a week, and have no involvement with the development of its content (I have never edited an "American political article"). I opened a talk page thread ages ago, which was promptly ignored by the likes of Calidum, who continued edit-warring with other editors over the infobox header, leading to the article's protection. Second of all, I am preparing to open a new RM because no moratorium was enacted, and because I believe that the evidence shows that the other title should be the title of the Misplaced Pages article. This is what those who "moved" the article did (such as well-known title warrior Born2cycle), filing new RMs at every juncture for years, so I do not see why I should not be allowed it? What is the reason for this apparent double standard? Furthermore, I find it absurd that I'm being taken to task over people who dislike my character. I have committed no wrong-doing, other than that some people here seem to have a visceral hatred of my very being. There is no justification whatsoever for an AN/I thread, or anything else. Yes, I oppose liberal activism on an encylopaedia that is supposed to be a bastion of neutrality. It isn't supposed to be a soapbox, or so I thought. Was that not the foundation of the project? And yet, merely voicing an opinion on the matter of these banners has brought fellows out of the woodwork, trying to sink my every act. What is the meaning of this? Why has this come to pass? Why are these editors able to go about unabashedly attacking the likes of me, incessantly playing at political advocacy, and yet I'm the one that's being chastised with a paddle? Explain, dear AN/I. Explain. RGloucester — ☎17:52, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
(Uninvolved editor comment, aka. unsolicited advice) Bad idea, RGloucester. Even if you are "right" on the merits, back-to-back RM's never go down well, and yours will surely be voted down (not on the "merits") if you try this. You are best advised to wait about 6 months (or until Hillary!! gets elected – whichever comes first) and try again then. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:55, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment - Interesting. EvergreenFir notified RGloucester of discretionary sanctions, and RGloucester deleted the notification, saying that he has never edited an American politics article. Hilary Rodham Clinton is an American politician. To respond to Anythingyouwant, I agree that being polarizing or divisive should not be grounds for sanctions against an editor. Anythingyouwant stated that RGloucester has engaged in dishonesty and retaliatory editing, which are conduct issues. I meant that "the community" at this noticeboard has difficulty in dealing with identified conduct issues by polarizing editors, and that conduct issues by polarizing or divisive editors should be dealt with either by Arbitration Enforcement or by the ArbCom. RGloucester hasn't responded to my comment about dripping sarcasm on the Internet, which is a waste of pixels. I recommend that this thread be closed by an uninvolved administrator, and that any conduct issues be taken to Arbitration Enforcement. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:29, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
AE does not apply, as I wasn't notified of the sanctions until mere minutes ago. As such, I wasn't made "aware" of the sanctions until after the supposed "violations" occurred. Not that there were any "violations". You'll note that the sum total of my involvement with the HRC article is with regard to the title, not with regard to anything political. I have no involvement in "American politics", and know nothing about them, praise God. I do not consider the few edits I made to restore the infobox header to the consensus version a week ago to be "editing an American politics article". Insofar as "sarcasm" is concerned, I do not understand as to what you are referring. Please be clearer, and perhaps I can furnish you with a reply. RGloucester — ☎18:34, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment - Perhaps my reference to sarcasm with respect to RGloucester's comments at Village pump (miscellaneous) telling other editors to stop challenging the will of the ruling classes and the will of God and to stop being so self-important was too kind, and perhaps either he was trolling or he actually believed what he said. It is true that those comments do not fall within the scope of Arbitration Enforcement because they have to do with European politics. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:41, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon:, I don't know exactly what "polarizing" refers to in this sense. I don't see anyone on the other side supporting RGloucester. The closest thing was the suggestion that he was being sarcastic when he proclaimed to speaks the word of God and insulted someone, which he has denied. He's also denied edit warring and apparently feels editing the politician's name in the infobox falls outside of ArbCom sanctions as it is not political content. Do you still suggest taking it to arbitration? You work in arbitration, correct? —Мандичка 😜 21:30, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
I can't speak for Robert, but I read his suggestion to mean taking it to WP:Arbitration Enforcement, not to WP:Arbitration. AE is where admins evaluate possible violations of ArbCom decisions, includng those involving discretionary sanctions, while Arbitration is a much more involved and time-consuming process which is generally used for new cases. Take a look at the content at WP:AE and see if you think it's an appropriate place to deal with your concerns. BMK (talk) 00:01, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
My complaint about RGloucester is regarding their ongoing behavior, incivil approach and general diva behavior that is approaching infamy outside of WP (like this unwarranted absurd attack on Drmies) that was on reddit). AE is just about people violating arbitrary sanctions. I haven't studied everything RGloucester has ever written, but it appears they've never made any admission or indication of meeting people halfway, just a ragequit when they demanded to be blocked. —Мандичка 😜 00:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
My recommendation was in particular to take the issue of move-warring or title-warring about an American politician to arbitration enforcement. The name in the infobox is the name of a candidate for President of the United States, and that is certainly American politics. If RGloucester thinks that he can persuade the uninvolved admins at AE that that isn't political, he can try to persuade them of that. If someone wants to propose sanctions for incivility with regard to a European political issue, they can do that here. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
@Robert McClenon: Firstly, there is nothing "uncivil" about stating that it isn't Misplaced Pages's business to be interfering in matters of law or government. Secondly, it seems that you, Mr McClenon, despite being being an Arbitration clerk, are not aware of WP:AC/DS procedures. I cannot be taken to AE in this supposed "American politics" topic area for anything that occurred prior to having been made aware of the sanctions. Given that I've not edited any American politics pages since that notice, mere hours ago, there are no grounds for an AE request in that topic area. Regardless, there would not be anything actionable even if AE was a possible route. I would remind Mr McClenon that Misplaced Pages is not a WP:SOAPBOX for certain political views. I understand that he may endorse the liberal views expressed in the discussion on the matter of the banners, but that does not mean he is able to initiate a sanctioning of editors who have different views, or view the neutrality of the encylopaedia as sacrosanct. RGloucester — ☎00:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
@RGloucester: I think you may want to correct your second sentence, because perhaps quite fortunately, he is not an arbitration clerk anymore since he resigned last month. @Wikimandia: So to answer a question of yours which seems to have been unanswered - he does not work in arbitration. Ncmvocalist (talk) 08:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore, I would like to note that Miss Wikimandia's mention of certain off-Misplaced Pages websites of ill-repute does not do her any service. It makes it clear that she is part of a long-running off-Misplaced Pages harassment campaign against me as an editor, started late last year during the Cultural Marxism deletion debate. Said campaign has been ongoing, and has made editing nigh impossible in some cases. If anything, I recommend that she be sanctioned for participating in this campaign of harassment, and for participating in what has essentially been stalking. RGloucester — ☎00:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not part of any campaign to harass or stalk you. If your behavior has gained the attention of the wider world, that has nothing to do with me. I don't care about the "Cultural Marxism" page and have never made any comment about it nor have I ever edited it. You're entitled to your opinion and there's nothing uncivil about saying you oppose the banner idea... notice the many other people who expressed that opinion who are not being discussed at ANI??? However, you're not entitled to be rude. What is uncivil is your insults and inability to work with other editors, which is part of an ongoing issue you have of seeing yourself as superior to everyone (except God, who speaks through you, of course). —Мандичка 😜 01:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I beg your pardon? What "insult"? I never "insulted" anymore. I merely said that one should know one's place, as one should do. Mind you, this was in response to an outpouring of passion on the part of one editor, whereby he was in anguish over the fact that many of the photographs he has taken will cease to be in his ownership if the mentioned law passes. I was simply making it clear that he has no right to decide whether the photographs are his own, and that Misplaced Pages is not a place for passionate advocacy. It isn't for us to decide. That's a matter for the ruling class, for our betters. If they decide that these photographs shan't be able to be used, then they shan't be able to be used. We have no right to challenge the law. The law is the law, and it must be respected. RGloucester — ☎03:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The difficulty here is that there are two problems with RGloucester. (1) he's quite annoying - overblown pseudo-Jane Austen language, grandiloquent rhetoric, ironic references that only he finds entertaining, sometimes bizarre opinions etc and (2) there's certainly an element of WP:BATTLE in his approach. The first isn't sanctionable, although it would be better if he didn't do it. The problem with the second is that it gets so clouded with the first that it's actually a little difficult to assess whether it's bad enough that something need be done about it. I think there's a lack of diffs in this thread, outside of the HC latest, that clearly point to (2) - as opposed to (1) - being an issue. DeCausa (talk) 08:52, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
That is an excellent analysis. I would add, however, that RG's propensity for actively and noisily not accepting the results of controversial community-consensus discussions which were settled only with great effort on many people's part can be considered to be WP:TENDENTIOUS and WP:DISRUPTIVE in and of themselves, since he tends to go on and on and on about it, and often takes steps which muck things up. BMK (talk) 11:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't consider RG being disruptive. I've no problem with RG's passion for the topic-in-question & recommend we take no action against RG. As long as RG doesn't try to put Rodham in the infobox heading (via edit warring) or attempt to move the article itself back to Hillary Rodham Clinton? then there's no probs. GoodDay (talk) 12:18, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Rgloucester is the author of one of the most hilarious unblock requests I have read on wiki: On 18:24, 17 April 2015 he wrote "I refuse to be blocked. I am not blocked. You can pretend that you blocked me all you like, but someone who is right can never be blocked. It is impossible." If we can get more of this I think that is enough reason to keep him around for the lulz.·maunus · snunɐɯ·12:28, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
This commentary is inappropriate. We should not have editors around to make fun of their behaviour. The above unblock request is suggestive of a mental breakdown to me. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 02:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The above user has been brought here before by me (see links below). He has a very big WP:OWN problem with Jackson High School (Michigan) and to a lesser extent, Lumen Christi Catholic High School, the two high schools in Jackson, Michigan. Evidence to his constant and unchecked WP:GAME and WP:IDHT have, IMO, risen to the level of WP:NOTHERE. I am asking for an indeff per NOTHERE, or lacking that, broadly construed editing restrictions on topics connected to high schools in Jackson, Michigan. Evidence follows. I leave the rest to the community.
I believe the above, along with a browse of his talk page and contributions, shows amply evidence of a WP:SPA who has no interest in conforming to the community standards for either content or civility. Thanks. Notifying him next edit John from Idegon (talk) 18:31, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
This is extremely aggravating how literally every mistake I make on here you bash me. A lot of those things you're complaining about were noob mistakes. I do not how to contact other users and you refuse to help me but instead you refer to me with vulgar language such as "bub". Second, every single edit I make is reverted by John too. I say he gets off my back. JacksonViking (talk) 04:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't know if you're not able to read a diff or if it's a deliberate misrepresentation of it, but all John from Idegon did in that edit, and what he referred to, was removing a duplicated section header... Thomas.W08:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd lean to misrepresentation. In the prior paragraph, HE referred to me as "bub" (not at all vulgar BTW) in the diff above labeled "further user page vandalism..." and I replied "So it's not bub now?" It's just another example of GAME. John from Idegon (talk) 15:18, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
JacksonViking, has it occurred to you that the reason no one is responding to the first paragraph you left is there is nothing to respond to? There is a welcome template on the top of your talk page that has links that could answer many of your questions. There is an invitation to the Teahouse, another place you can get your questions answered. You are posting here. You have (finally) posted at the article talk page, nearly 2 years after this whole debacle started. You are posting at the AfD another editor started on an article you created. Your claims of not knowing how to communicate are disingenuous. When you do communicate, you attempt to obfuscate the problem. You for example readd a huge block of BLP violating crap that you've refused to discuss numerous times, along with a minor and unneeded change to the notable people list. I revert, and You them charge to my User page, blank the entire thing and insert a whiny complaint about me removing your change to the notable list, totally ignoring the real problem. In the process, you refer to me as "bub" a term you find offensive enough to complain here that I used it. Is it any wonder you are not getting help from other editors? John from Idegon (talk) 17:17, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
John from Idegon All I come on here to do is make edits and help educate the community of the world. You have been bullying me since I've joined by deleting all my edits regardless of their value. JacksonViking (talk) 05:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
JacksonViking continues to make unfounded and unsupported accusations against me here, is engaging in WP:BATTLEGROUND discussion at Talk:Jackson High School (Michigan), and has refactored my comments here (sorry, can't seem to get the diff to paste from my phone, but it is the strikeout showing in my last entry above. If you look at the history you will see he did it and I cannot imagine a scenario where that could happen accidentally), all the while not even beginning to explain the behavior he was brought here for. John from Idegon (talk) 07:13, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
JacksonViking, are we really going to have to block you to prevent you from continuing to disrupt the encyclopedia and to help you grasp whatever is you don't understand? That's what happens here at ANI, you know. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In light of the latest, creating an article now at AfD that was primarily a copyvio (here), I would suggest that might be what needs to happen. An indef, with the requirement of accepting mentorship before an unblock can happen. John from Idegon (talk) 17:43, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Okay firstly, someone changed a comment I made on page and ran a mark through it like I did to the typo John made so I didn't know it was so offensive. Secondly I wish someone would give me a clear cut message about what wrongs I am performing. I have Been a huge contributor to the Jackson high school wiki and added a bio box and a picture and curriculum and alumni. JacksonViking (talk) 22:45, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
In case you aren't hearing us, vague excuses are not getting it. Who did that? where? when?
An explanation for why you named a reference "Penis" is needed.
An admission that you knew you were doing something wrong by using deceptive edit summaries, along with a promise not to do it again, is needed.
An indication of a desire to learn how to do things right, such as requesting WP:Adoption would be a big positive step.
An indication that you have up to now refused to listen and in most cases even acknowledge that there is no-one showing you malice and people have been trying to help you would be nice.
A promise to quit taking things personally and throwing tantrums (such as naming references Penis).
Showing some understanding that a large amount of what you have been doing has not been encyclopedic. You need to perhaps spend time editing articles that have nothing whatsoever to do with Jackson, Michigan so possibly you can develop a sense of perspective on why your additions have not been that helpful.
No one is out to get you. ALl anyone here cares about is the quality of the encyclopedia. If you are interested in contributing to a quality encyclopedia, by all means, stick around. If your only interest is adding what you want without restriction to articles relating to Jackson, then perhaps you should spend a few bucks and start a website. John from Idegon (talk) 23:33, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Naming the reference Penis was because I figured there was no harm since no one can see it and the reference needed a unique name that helped differentiate it from the dozens of other things on the page JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC) JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC) JacksonViking (talk) 00:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
If the above is not enough for some kind administrator to use his buttons, perhaps the conversation on my talk page will help. Or maybe this. Or this, where he reinstated s copyvio, removed a BLP citations needed tag an just to put some whip cream on top of it, added a good article template (to a sub stub at AfD) . The conversation on my talk page is making me think we have a CIR scenario here, but either th st or nothere, it needs someone to swing the mop. John from Idegon (talk) 07:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I did not reintroduce copyvio. I paraphrased the entire substance of the article. Willis is also a freshmen not a junior and he says he wants to study to be an attorney in college. JacksonViking (talk) 22:19, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Here you added the Good Article template. Here I removed it. My apologies, Barek removed the reference needed tag, I am guessing on the theory that as a completely unreferenced BLP, it was probably a bit redundant. Here you inserted the uttterly false and impossible piece of info that as a freshman, he was majoring in law. According to the conversation on my talk page, you deduced this from his statements that he enjoyed law and wanted to be a lawyer. Again, I have to apologize, you had properly paraphrased the source on the bit on the recruitment violation. I am not going to restore this to the article however, because it is much more about MSU than Mr. Willis. I am sorry for these errors, Jackson. However, hopefully you can learn something here. I honestly admitted I made them and stated what I was doing to correct them, which in this case is nothing, because they are either already handled or don't need handling. When you make an acceptable edit followed by two bad ones, sometimes the good gets tossed with the bad.
For the adminstrators: My action in reverting the non-copyvio are regrettable and I should not have done them. However, his conversation here and above on the subject of naming a reference "Penis" support the undeniable conclusion that either he is extreamly disruptive (making WP:DICKish edits and lying about them) and hence WP:NOTHERE or he is grossly incompetent and WP:CIR. The two articles he has created recently that are both at AfD also support this conclusion (Khari Willis and Michael Funkhouser. The discussions at the respective AfD's and talk pages for those articles are also informative to this conclusion). In either case, I am asking for some action. A quick scan of his talk shows this is not a personal issue with me about him. I am far from the only editor that has tried to get him to see the errors of his ways. This has gone on long enough. John from Idegon (talk) 17:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Before I discovered this discussion, I had already decided to block JacksonViking for a short time, because of persistently replacing article content which is supported by sources with content which is unsupported by any sources I can find, often directly contradicted by reliable sources, and in some cases adding false "references" which do not support his edits. Reading the above discussion, and realising that the problems are far more extensive than those I knew about, I wondered whether to block for much longer instead. However, for the present I have decided to give him every chance to improve, so I have blocked for just 48 hours, and posted a fairly long block message to his talk page, trying to encourage him to change. However, I regard that as a minimum block, in view of the extensive history of problems, at least some of which look as though they may not be good-faith mistakes. If he does not benefit from the second chance I have given him, I do not think a jump directly from a 48 hour block up to an indefinite one would be unreasonable. The editor who uses the pseudonym "JamesBWatson" (talk) 15:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
User:DePiep
I undid an edit by User:DePiep and added the subject "This was not a minor edit - you are changing more than just infobox parameters" () beacuse he was changing text from other editors. He undid it with the subject "grow up and learn to read" and I undid it again: "Stop it - you are changing the meaning of peoples text - look at the diff" and he undid it with "Get an editors life instead of tracking and bothering other editors. Create you own edits. And no, no contant changes because it's about par names". I confronted him on his talk page (see bottom - conversation before he archieved it), and asked for an apology, and he just said "And why should I not point to the "bothering" aspect?" Its not the first time, see e.g. Wikipedia_talk:Chemical_infobox#ATC_and_DrugBank_deprecations_reversion (and especially from "I did notice there were multiple editors in this discussion, and DePiep ", and its not so long ago he was here at WP:ANI last time Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#use_of_COI_as_a_weapon_in_content_dispute. Christian75 (talk) 22:47, 25 June 2015 (UTC)
Adds unsourced material, eg. , despite warnings. Never adds edit summaries, despite requests to. Does not respond to talk page requests from other editors. Thank you. Magnolia677 (talk) 00:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I only saw the one revert, but he is actually right. Took me 10 seconds to find the citation for it at The best thing is to just put it back with that reference. Dennis Brown - 2¢00:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Here's the person's edit analysis. Behold and be awed.Yeah, discussed this person here a while back. The general consensus of the admin corps was leave him alone, he makes occasional minor mistakes and won't talk, but his overall contributions are net positive by far, so let him carry on. Herostratus (talk) 01:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
User:Cliff1911 has more than 40,000 edits and it looks like every one of them is mainspace. He hasn't used an edit summary in his last few thousand edits, and may never have used them. He adds material to articles, much of it potentially useful, but never adds sources. He has had hundreds of comments left on his talk page, but has never responded, ever. This is the world's worst case of WP:IDHT. How do you deal with an editor who refuses to follow policy and refuses to communicate about not following policy? Alansohn (talk) 01:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
In the past, IPs have gotten blocks around here just because they won't respond to Talk page comments. I've got to think the same would apply to account-holding editors. This is supposed to be a collaborative environment, and not responding to queries, etc. pretty much destroys that. The other editor I can think of in this vein is basically a Wikignome, and about 80% of his edits are constructive, while the other 20% are more unhelpful, but their edits are so gnomish that no one has pursued it further in that case. But I'm of the opinion that not responding to queries at all is unhelpful, no matter the "quality" of the edits, and can and should be the basis for Admin action. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 02:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Editors don't edit or create content in a vacuum. Is an editor really adhering to the fourth pillar if they never communicate... well, ever?! Look, I'm not saying to block for not communicating in this instance. But the discussion on their Talk page is entirely correct – the first time this editor commits an infraction, possibly even an inadvertent one, they're likely to end up indef blocked because the Admins will have no other choice if they never communicate. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 05:28, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I'd probably recommend an attention getting block. I can't remember the name of the editor but I remember a similar case from a year or so back where an editor refused to reply to comments on talk pages. If I remember correctly, it took 1-2 blocks for him to realize that people meant business and he eventually began responding to comments and leaving edit summaries. Honestly... at this point he's been getting so many warnings that at this point the only way to show him that we're serious about talking with other editors is to actually back up our words with actions. While he may have made beneficial edits, he's also made some non-beneficial edits and he's continued to do this despite several very clear warnings about a lack of sourcing. I'm of the mind that his continued actions (despite warnings) shows a refusal to follow the rules. If this were any other editor he'd have been given at least 1-2 warning blocks by now. The only reason he hasn't received them is because he hasn't responded to anything. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)10:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Support attention-getting block. If he were just making helpful edits, it would be no issue. But there's some problems with his edits. Looking at his talk page, he doesn't just add info, he removes it without explanation, and does not respond/correct various problems like disambiguation links he adds. —Мандичка 😜 11:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Support attention-getting block. If he doesn't want to communicate with people that is absolutely fine, but that does not mean that he can continue editing in a way which, whilst it is not going to break enWiki, has received sufficient attention here and on his talk page from numerous editors that it is now disruptive. I don't really see a material difference between his behaviour and point 5 of WP:DISRUPTSIGNS. His behviour is taking up more and more of other editor's time. I don't really see why he should not be blocked until he states, however briefly that he will act on the repeated suggestions of the community as I don't see a single post on his talk page that could be deemed to be a positive reaction to his editing. If he then wishes to return to silence that is his choice Fenix down (talk) 12:32, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Not yet. We've had a few of these lately, which inspired me to write WP:ENGAGE. The key here is asking how much disruption has he caused. One or two recent reverts is not enough. I've put him on notice, pointed him to the information that he can get blocked if he continues to revert without talking about it, the fair thing is to wait and see if he stops reverting. No one is required to talk here, as long as they aren't doing something that requires talking. The last thing we want to do is run someone off when it isn't necessary. Dennis Brown - 2¢12:54, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
"Not yet"? "Leave him/her alone"? Cliff1911 has made 40,000 edits in seven years, refuses to leave edit summaries, refuses to communicate and -- most fundamentally -- refuses to add sources for anything. If either Dennis Brown or Anthonyhcole would follow every one of Cliff1911's edits and add the reliable and verifiable sources required for these edits, I'd have no issue. Until then, we have an editor who refuses to follow bedrock Misplaced Pages policy and who seems to be operating in their own encyclopedia, not ours. Alansohn (talk) 14:34, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The issue with this is that he's done this for years and he's been receiving warnings about his various edits since 2008. This post from 2011 shows that he'd been warned several times. He's clearly been warned dozens upon dozens of times about his editing and at this point he should be clearly aware that we want him to at least respond when people have issue with him. I mean, he's been brought to ANI TWICE, both in2013. He never responded in either circumstance and he was never blocked. At this point he's extremely unlikely to pay any attention to further warnings. I mean, at this point our lack of action is pretty much giving him the message that not only are his actions OK, but that Misplaced Pages is condoning his actions because he made a lot of edits. I mean, that's the message I'm getting from all of this, that an editor can be problematic and have the same problems over a period of six years and never actually have to face repercussions for repeatedly going against people's requests and Misplaced Pages policy. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)14:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Think about it this way: if he'd responded to us and basically told us "no way, I'm going to keep doing this, forget you guys" then we'd have at least blocked him temporarily. Well, that's pretty much what he's telling us with his outright refusal to even respond to anything. I mean, what does he care? If we continue on the way we have, he has nothing to fear - he doesn't have to change since people will argue that his amount of edits gives him immunity. (And yes, that is essentially what is being said here.) The length and amount of edits are nothing to sneeze at, but right now this is pretty much setting a dangerous example, that Misplaced Pages will turn a blind eye to problematic editors if they exist long enough on Misplaced Pages and edit enough. I mean, come on guys- this guy isn't going to change unless we make him pay attention and if he's not going to change then he's going to continue to make problematic edits, leave no edit summary, and refuse to talk with other editors. I'm not saying we should hang his head on a spike and never allow him to edit again, but clearly he's not going to change or respond unless he's at least given a 2-3 day (or even a week) block that forces him to stop and respond. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)14:52, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
When I get time, I'm going to try to count how many of his last 50-100 edits have been unsourced. I'd say that the bulk of them (like 70-80%) appear to unsourced and while these aren't huge BLP concerns (ie, he's not saying that Cher married a fish), they're still BLP concerns because they're unsourced. He's fully aware that we require sources, yet he also refuses to source. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)14:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
You don't have to add citations to your edits. If someone challenges what you add without a good citation they may delete your contribution. I'm fairly sure edit summaries aren't mandatory either - at least, they weren't the last time I looked. Perhaps I misunderstood the above, but I thought his/her contributions were good faith efforts and generally good. I thought he/she wasn't vandalising, edit-warring or in any other way harming the encyclopaedia. If I've got that wrong, I apologise. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
This is correct, though most people start to get upset when they keep finding their edits get reverted and either learn policy or quit. Ritchie33315:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Refusing to talk isn't a violation of policy, and specifically, a person can NOT be compelled to participate at ANI. He's been put on notice: if he edit wars (an actual violation), then he will be blocked. Blocking him solely because we want him to talk isn't supported in policy. Unless someone can point to a specific policy that he is violating, then a block won't stand, as it would blocking to force them to do what we WANT them to do, not what policy requires. We aren't here to do that. There are many, many individuals like this here at Misplaced Pages, who act in good faith but won't talk. I'm not prepared to get into the psychology of it, but it is common enough. If he edit wars, I will happily block for 24 hours the first time, and otherwise follow normal procedure for behavioral issues. Not talking, by itself, is not a behavioral policy violation. It is a pain, but not a violation. Dennis Brown - 2¢15:21, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I've spun through the last couple of hundred edits by this editor, and I cannot see any obvious clear policy violation other than possibly mild violations of WP:BLP through adding unsourced content. Most of the work seems to be insignificant plot summary gnoming. As Dennis says, if he starts to edit-war or violate real policies that can be backed with diffs, we'll look into it. Ritchie33315:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I think that's where I am now too. But I agree with the discussion on his Talk page as well – if it ever comes to a block, it'll probably have to be an indef, as that may be the only way to get this editor to communicate... In the meantime, if this editor continues to add anymore unsourced info to any BLPs, they should simply be reverted as a matter of course. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Absolutely do not block this person. The only question for this particular person, since he's so unusual, is: is he a net positive, or not? If he's not, kick him off for good. If he is, leave him alone.
We cannot be at all certain that he is even aware of the existence of his user page, his talk page, or article talk pages, or how to use them. Any block of this person would perforce be permanent in my opinion, since he would presumably continue editing exactly as before when the block expires (which would then require longer and longer blocks, unless we were to back down), and he would presumably be unwilling (or possibly unable) to request reinstatement.
The question we should be asking is whether the disruption caused by this editor outweighs their positive contributions. While Dennis Brown's essay is very good and highlights good reasons why users should strive to communicate, there is no policy that requires any user to respond to talk messages or to use edit summaries, and I think it sets a poor precedent to start sanctioning users just because they don't use their talk pages. From what I see, this is an editor who is occasionally an inconvenience, but the disruption is extremely minor, and a long way off from being blocked under WP:CIR or any other guideline/policy. We all probably have better things to do. Ivanvector (talk) 22:30, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The calls for an "attention-getting block" are ridiculous. So this guy/gal operates in this odd way -- big deal. On balance he's way more helping than hurting, so leave him for God's sake alone. EEng (talk) 02:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
We can, but you've got to figure that he's had dozens of complaints over his edits and thousands of unsourced BLP edits. He's been asked to explain his edits multiple, multiple times. My biggest point with this is that the only thing he has going for him is that he's edited a lot. It's kind of well... this is what people talk about when they say that we play favorites. We could just ignore him now, but I can guarantee that he's going to end up being brought up at ANI again and I can guarantee that he's going to continue to collect complaints on his talk page from multiple different editors. Maybe it seems like this is all minor, but what we have here is essentially someone who is following their own rules and doesn't even have the consideration to at least respond to people's complaints. He's not following Misplaced Pages's rules, he's following his rules. If the two come together, then that seems to be mostly coincidental than anything else - he's been warned about several policies (using citations, for example)... and his reaction was to continue to ignore those policies. It looks pretty clear that nothing is going to be done to him, but I still have to extend the warning that eventually it's going to become necessary. He's adding BLP material without any sort of citation. The material may seem minor, but what happens when he adds something major? Something that someone might actually want to complain to Misplaced Pages about? What do we do then? Just say "oh, he edits a lot and refuses to talk to anyone, but he edits a lot, he gets a pass"? He doesn't have to write a book or anything, but to my knowledge he's never spoken to anyone since he's signed up with Misplaced Pages and there have been multiple complaints about him - and those are just the ones on his talk page and at ANI. I have no doubt that there are probably at least a few dozen more in the edit summaries of the articles he's edited. Long story short, at some point we're going to have to deal with his BLP violations (even though they may seem minor to some) and his constant refusal to talk to anyone or to even follow basic guidelines. If he'd at least started using citations in his edits that'd be some improvement, but I don't see where he's ever really done even that. I really don't think that a long edit history and seemingly beneficial edits should give you immunity to everything on Misplaced Pages. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)03:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
If you want to keep pushing this, you need to stop saying he has to use citations. Except in certain circumstances, citations aren't actually required. Is he disruptively restoring unsourced material removed by other editors? I really get the feeling a few people just can't stand this guy's eccentricity. It's weird but leave him alone. EEng (talk) 06:40, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Uh... sourcing absolutely is a requirement on BLPs, which is what this discussion has been about. Yeah, sure, explicit sourcing isn't needed on all articles. But it pretty much always in on BLPs – adding unsourced material to BLPs is definitely not "OK" in most of the circumstances that count. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:47, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Is he putting in negative or controversial BLP material? And the graph above showing how all his edits are to articles....we are here to build an encyclopedia, so someone who is dominated by article edits doesn't inspire me to instablock. We keep rehashing the same arguments, but he has been warned, and unless he has new actions that warrant a block, then blocking is improper. And this talk of an indef block is completely out of policy. We use escalating blocks as needed, we don't indef block someone out of the gate for stuff like this. The tone is almost vindictive and I simply don't understand why, and frankly, it doesn't matter: we don't block punitively, we block to prevent disruption, meaning even if he needed a block, it should be proportional to the risk he poses, NOT just to twist his arm. Dennis Brown - 2¢06:57, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Dennis, please see what I said above, as a follow-up to Ritchie – I don't think a block here is appropriate right now. That said, if this editor is adding unsourced material to BLPs, it should essentially be reverted as a matter of course. I'd like to believe that such reversions much get this editor to actually communicate then, but I suspect it's too much to hope for... But my overall point stands – we are building an encyclopedia together, in a collaborate environment, and as such communication is key. Those editors that choose not to communicate (like, at all) will sooner or later likely crop up as a problem. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:07, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, I think the problem is that Cliff's editing is already an issue – not a "blockable" issue – but an issue (e.g. adding content without sources, adding overlong plot summaries as was potentially done at The Postman (film), etc.), nonetheless. Which I think is Tokyogirl79's point. And that's where the lack of a communication becomes a problem – without communication, there's little hope of getting across exactly what others' problems with Cliff's editing is (the details just won't come across in single templated messages, even assuming Cliff is reading those), or prodding Cliff to change and improve as an editor. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
That's pretty much my point: he's already done things that people have had issues with and he's had people flat out ask him to source material and to communicate. He's done neither of those things despite many, many, many requests. There's something very troublesome about the fact that we have an editor that continually refuses to add sources to articles or talk to anyone. The lack of communication wouldn't be as huge of an issue if he would just do something to show that he's actually listening to anything anyone says to him. That's what is most concerning here - he doesn't even seem to show that he's willing to do even the smallest amount of work to back up a fact with a source. It doesn't matter if it's something seemingly small or not - what bothers me is the implication here that Cliff is essentially editing by his own rules. Not Misplaced Pages's rules, but Cliff's rules. What if something changes and it's something that's direly serious? He clearly doesn't respond to comments on his talk page or anywhere else, nor does he even show any indication that it has even registered? That leaves Misplaced Pages liable for pretty much everything that he writes. It may seem small because the edits seem inconsequential to everyone else, but what if he writes something that's blatantly incorrect and someone takes serious offense to it? He's obviously not going to respond at that point in time either, nor will he likely pay any attention to anything anyone writes. Basically, what bothers me most here is his continued refusal to communicate and his displayed indifference to the fact that people have repeatedly asked him to edit within policy. Odds are that this is going to end with nothing done to him, but mark my words - this will be back on ANI in the future and eventually something will have to be done. I just really dislike the fact that the only thing this guy has going for him is a long edit history. We've temp blocked newer users with less edits for stuff like this (small edits that seem inconsequential, no communication) so it just seems massively unfair for us to allow an older user to get away with this. I mean, people accuse us of having a bias all the time and while most of the time it's full of crap, stuff like this does kind of lend credence to this. Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡)07:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Let me give an example: He was threatened with a blcok by an editor on his talk page for adding someone to the list of people born in Goldfield, Nevada. It was a final warning. It took me all of 5 seconds to find a source proving this fact: (there are others, I just grabbed this one). It was an uncontroversial fact about someone who died 13 years ago. Magnolia677 threatening him was completely inappropriate. It wasn't a BLP issue. People put in correct but unsourced facts all the time, it is how a Wiki works. WP:V does NOT require we source all facts. It requires than they are able to be sourced, and it assumes that someone else will source them. Obviously contentious facts about living people should be avoided, but this isn't the case here, this was a matter of where a dead guy was born. It isn't against policy to add this to an article, and it isn't proper to warn. Period. Revert as unsourced or simply go find a source like I did, we are here to build an encyclopedia, after all, but you don't warn or block. Dennis Brown - 2¢07:12, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, the level 4 on that was overkill. So was the level 1 vandalism warning that Cliff just got from User:NeoBatfreak for the additions to The Postman (film) – Cliff's plot summaries there might have been over-long, but they certainly weren't vandalism... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 07:22, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Dennis Brown, it's impressive that it too you "all of 5 seconds to find a source". The problem is that Cliff1911 refused to spend those 5 seconds. He's never done it. He won't add sources, he won't leave edit summaries and he won't respond to talk page messages. If you're willing to clean up the crap he leaves behind after each and every edit of his, adding the required sources that he refuses to add, that's great for you, but Cliff1911 isn't doing that. We're here to build an encyclopedia by working collaboratively; he isn't. Alansohn (talk) 05:15, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
That pie chart must be unique for that number of edits on Misplaced Pages. However, what nobody has noticed or cared to mention is he extroadinary cyclic monthly editing pattern. Now that tells a story, but not one for which I am going to commit an indiscretion by publicly hypothesising. I say we leave well alone. If he does s do something egregious enough to be blockworthy, we block, but certainly not before. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 15:41, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A further thought: If this person was editing anonymously on rapidly changing IP addresses, we wouldn't even know they existed, let alone be talking about "attention-getting blocks". We would just wonder why none of these constructive IP's bothered to register. Perhaps this tells us why. All the best: RichFarmbrough, 20:17, 1 July 2015 (UTC).
Self-recall for The Rambling Man
Clear consensus that TRM should not self-recall. No opinion on any self-imposed restriction on using the tools. KrakatoaKatie17:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Hello all. I'd like to request a self-recall, i.e. comments and opinions as to whether I should remain an admin just a touch more than eight years in the role. Recent events have demonstrated that there are serious question marks over my ability to conduct myself as an admin, and that I may be bringing the rest of the "admin corps" into disrespect; indeed I have often been cited as "one of the worst admins" and that I have "no credibility" on Misplaced Pages. While I fully accept my approach in many places and discussions has been abrasive and sometimes unnecessarily fighty, but I have never knowingly abused the tools afforded my by the admin bit. For openness, I have, in the past, been temporarily blocked for transgression of an IBAN and I was recently blocked by a fellow admin for a BLP violation (the outcome of which is discussed in some detail in sections above). The latter, and its subsequent fallout has determined this course of action.
The time has come that I do the right thing and submit myself to the community (well, this community) for scrutiny. For what it's worth, I'd prefer to keep the bit in order to continue to help out as and when necessary, and will endeavour to moderate my "snippiness" in either case. Naturally, I will stand by the result of the consensus as closed by an uninvolved admin. Thanks to all those who take the time to comment, pro or con or otherwise. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:13, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
This being ANI, I claim an exception to the IBAN, so that I can make this statement: I have had a number of disagreements with TRM over various issues, but I cannot think of any instances where he has abused his admin authority. ←Baseball Bugscarrots→ 16:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Isn't this usually done through a Misplaced Pages:Administrator review? I know that this method isn't used a lot but, in my experience, ANI can be a forum where there is often more heat than light. I think you would want a careful consideration of your tenure, not just editors' thumbs up or thumbs down reactions. Liz16:51, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Is there any advantage to taking it over there? That looks like a forgotten corner of the Misplaced Pages. (I can almost literally see the cobwebs...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:09, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I tend to agree, there's one review there which has had no comments for about seven weeks. I'm "happy" to use this place right now, after all it seems to be the place where my most vociferous critics spend a lot of time. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:17, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Sounds like a waste of time to me, as if there isn't enough of that going on already. I don't think there are many concerns by significant amounts here over Rambling's Man's general conduct. I might be wrong, but I can't see what benefit giving you a grilling would achieve here. If you've ever been combative, it's perfectly understandable given the arrogance of some of the people on the site.♦Dr. Blofeld16:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Goodness, it took all of 12 minutes for you to go into pointless incivility and POINTy comments. Not your record perhaps, but well up there. – SchroCat (talk) 16:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Goodness, you showed up, right on schedule. Not your record perhaps, but well up there. And the others can't be far behind, unless they're asleep. ←Baseball Bugscarrots→ 17:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Mimicking - how very mature of you. Your obsession over this non-existent "clique" really is paranoid nonsense. - SchroCat (talk) 17:19, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I've had some issues with your style in the past, but not with your admin tools. Moderating your snippiness, as you put it, is all I'd ever ask for, and I'm glad to see that you're gonna try to do so. Your admin bit is fine by me. (and yeah, liz might be right about the whole bureaucracy thing, but whatevs.)Writ Keeper⚇♔16:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The only thing you did wrong was edit warring, which a number of editors have gotten a bit heated and done over the years. That's an editorial / judgment error, not an admin abuse issue. The worst sanction I could possibly see happening (if Kww hadn't abused his sysop bit) would have been you and Kww getting blocked 24 hours for making a few too many reverts. ;) Reaper Eternal (talk) 17:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) My advice? – Take a one-year self-initiated sabbatical (after which point you can simply request your tools be returned, if you after a year you still desire to reclaim your tools). I haven't seen or heard of any evidence of abuse of your Admin tools. But your interactions with other editors leaves much to be desired. Further, you seem to enjoy "content creation" more than Admin'ing more anyway. So I can't help but think that a one-year sabbatical might be the best for all involved, perhaps most for yourself. Please know that this is nothing more than a good faith suggestion. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Interesting, although resigning the bit now would 100% be considered "under a cloud", so requesting it back would require an RFA. And it doesn't seem to be my admin'ing that's called into question that often anyway.... The Rambling Man (talk) 17:31, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I can only speak for myself, but I wouldn't see it as "taking a leave under a cloud" – if it's voluntary, it's kosher. (I.E. No one would be "forcing" you to take a sabbatical.) I don't know the particulars of the process, but I don't think an RfA would be required here (would it?...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 17:47, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
A "block" that's been universally perceived as being improperly levied. (Look, I don't want to see Kww desysop'ed for that – but even I think that your block in that situation was completely inappropriate, and should never have been enacted...) --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:03, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
A "block" which has just been left forever in my block log without any kind of problem for the blocking admin. Anyway, thanks for your advice, I'll take it all onboard. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
You're fine, TRM (I don't mean that in an admiring your physique way; you may be fine in that way too, who knows?, not me). You have the tact of a sledgehammer and the finesse of a paving slab though. Belle (talk) 17:10, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
There are two things about the way Adminships are currently viewed by many around here that really quite bother me: 1) that Adminships should be "lifetime appointments" (I couldn't disagree more with this), and 2) that the only consideration that should go into evaluating an Admin is their use (or abuse) of "the tools". The second one has become a real stumbling block around here to improving the Admin corps IMO. The fact is Admins basically serve a supervisory role on this project, and in real organizations appraising supervisors goes beyond just whether they "unjustly sacked someone" and looks at how they interact with underlings (and with each other). The truth of the matter is that a very important part of an Admin's job is in fact interaction with other editors (often esp. newbies). Take a look at two recent RfA's, Ritchie333's and NeilN's – in both cases, a recurring theme for their being promoted was their positive interactions with other editors, especially new editors. Even with Ser Amantio di Nicolao's current RfA, a recurring theme is the positive interactions other editors have had with him... So, really, I could not disagree more with the statement, "The role of administrators as ambassadors or whatnot is overstated." Interaction with other editors is of paramount importance in appraising how an Admin is doing their job. It's not just about "tools". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:00, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Administrators are not part of a rigid power structure; they are held directly accountable to the community. There are plenty "real" organisations which operate horizontally. A candidate's feistiness serves as an indicator of the possibility of their abusing the tools; it is not the expectation that admins have otherwise got to behave better than the herd. Trying to get along with each other is important for everyone. Alakzi (talk) 18:15, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Again, we're getting lost in the obsessive focus on the "tools". Appropriate interaction is especially important from Admins. Admins should and must be held to a higher standard. Saying there isn't a "rigid power structure" doesn't negate that there is one, in fact. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 18:39, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I do not agree that admins should be held to a higher behavioural standard than the rest of us and hence I do not consider his frequent abrasiveness to be a reason to resign. You're begging the question; yes, if you claim that admins must behave better, then there is a power structure. Do note, I do think that admins need to be on their best behaviour when doing admin work. Alakzi (talk) 18:49, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Sure, my interpretation of that particular admin action was very similar to a recent one where an involved admin was overstepping the mark by shutting down ongoing discussion. It should have been down to someone else to do that. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:48, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
But the protection policy doesn't allow administrators to edit through full protection to express displeasure with the protection, or because they don't feel the protection is valid. --Laser brain(talk)17:55, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Should you resign? Yes. Have you abused your tools? Yes. Why should you resign and how have you abused the tools? You've abused the tools often through your bad behavior, negative attitude, your bully type tactics, and your vulgar language...especially when interacting with editors you dislike. For these reasons you should step down. Caden18:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Someone needs to learn what admin tools are then. If you think RM has abused them, please show diffs. If not, then you're just using this as an opportunity to make ad hominem comments. - SchroCat (talk) 18:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
You are are wonderful editor and a good admin. Sure, there was a bit of warring going on, but it was for the benefit of the project and there was no disruption in mind. I shan't comment specifically to Caden's remark, but I should treat it with the contempt it deserves if I were you. Cassianto|
Thank you Martin, helpful as ever. I really liked the original, ("you're in for a big surprise!" and Sharon Stone practising her serves) but the sequel sucked. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose self recall Long term user, relinquished 'crat rights so clearly not holding on to bits for the sake of them. One of our most active WP:ITN editors, a place that needs more admins. Yep, you're abrasive at times and I think you could knock some of the immediate snark on the head. But then again so could I. No tool misuse has been demonstrated (Caden makes allegations but provides no diffs or other facts) and only a net positive to the project. Pedro : Chat 19:12, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen any reason whatsoever for The Rambling Man to turn in his badge, with the possible exception of his own fatigue (as someone who had voted for his bureaucratship, I didn't see the need for him leaving that club either, personally, but he might have). Mostly per Pedro: The Rambling Man's experience and judgment at WP:ITN are valuable, also as an admin who is able to post hot items to the main page sooner rather than later. And I also agree with the other things Pedro said; more diplomacy and less condescension (and less sensitivity) while arguing wouldn't be undesirable, but that has nothing to do with whether The Rambling Man should remain an admin or not. ---Sluzzelintalk19:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The Oil drop experiment shows that even senior scientists will modify their own reported findings to fit them within the "orthodoxy" - even when scientists have put effort into attempting to be objective. Groupthink comes about in organizations that actively try to avoid it. Personally, I see this on ITN - three or four editors will remark adding support for a nomination, then an experienced editor will rubbish the proposal with brusque language - making others who support the idea more cautious and more likely to decide not to contribute. Bear in mind that for every senior admin that uses brusque, snide, sardonic, cynical, or dismissive comments, it's possible that more than one good faith editor decides not to engage in a topic area where they feel the quality of discourse is going downhill. I don't want TRM to cease adminship - but he should stop making facetious remarks in places that don't involve vandalism or edit wars (like ITN). -- Aronzak (talk) 19:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
If someone can show me specific diffs showing abuse of tools, I will try to evaluate them fairly despite my generally favorable opinion of TRM. Otherwise, I will assume that in this, as in most accusations of "administrator abuse", it is the admin who is being abused. --Guy Macon (talk) 20:05, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I have a faint awareness of some history of snippiness, so I applaud TRM for the promise to work on that. I also applaud TRM for the self-awareness that some have expressed concern which led to this request for feedback. I do not support the suggestion (made above) of the relinquishment of tools at this time. I haven't thought through whether this would qualify as "under a cloud" or not and I don't care to investigate it but I understand the possibility so I would not think it wise to resign the tools at this point. I also have too much to do to undertake a review on my own. If there are editors who have concerns they have been invited to provide evidence. I will review the evidence is presented but I won't go looking for myself. So far no evidence has been presented, the unsupported post of Caden notwithstanding. Caden, provide diffs and I'll look at them. If you don't your allegation is likely to be ignored.--S Philbrick(Talk)20:26, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Clarification: What I suggested above was a "sabbatical" or "leave of absence" not a "relinquishment". Sabbaticals are part of the job in that other field that involves lots of writing and researching: academia. They should not be viewed as "abnormal" or "unusual" here. How many first-hand reports have we seen from editors who say taking a break from Misplaced Pages was the best thing they've done? And I can think of at least one Admin who said the same thing about taking a break from the tools... --IJBall (contribs • talk) 20:33, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Just resign the tools and get on with editing, which is what this project is supposed to be all about anyway. You don't need a title and a block button to be validated as a Wikipedian. Carrite (talk) 20:37, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that had crossed my mind, problem is that on the odd occasion I do use the tools, it's normally to things like move ITN items to the main page, or fix errors there. I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian, I would prefer to keep it to assist the project. Perhaps someone could tell me how many times I've used admin tools outside the main page, DYK queue etc maintenance and how many times I've used it to block, protect or delete... The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
@The Rambling Man: "I don't need it to be validated as a Wikipedian" - no but others critically do see it that way - and it makes them less likely to want to vocally disagree in places like the ITN and DYK queue. This is an issue for editor retention, because novice editors feel uncomfortable disagreeing with a senior, longstanding admin. See Feynman's quote about how experienced scientists modify their findings to avoid disagreeing with a senior, published figure. Your admin powers may only be a small part of your time - but the fact that you're an admin makes non-admins cautious to come to the defence of non-admins you make abrasive comments towards, especially on DYK and ITN. Editor retention is one of the big issues with the project - and when junior editors are snapped at on ITN or DYK, they may be less likely to feel like contributing. I don't want you to lose your adminship, just appreciate that being an admin and making abrasive comments makes non-admins unwilling to challenge you, and that can drive down editor retention. I'd prefer TRM to commit to something like involving a wikiproject like editor retention in monthly reviews of conduct, and getting suggestions to improve ITN and DYK for new users. -- Aronzak (talk) 06:39, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I dislike The Rambling Man as an editor and as a person (at least the part of his person one can know from interacting with him on wiki - possibly he is a swell guy in person but that seems beside the point). On wiki he is perpetually abrasive, condescending and arrogant, dismissive of others' arguments and unwilling to engage in serious discussion, and when one responds to him in kind he is petulant and easily offended. Pretty much classic baiting behavior. I have had quite a few disputes with him, principally at ITN where I consider him to display consistently poor judgment and worse behavior in relation to other editors with whom he disagrees. In that context, I have made many personal attacks against him, all of which I consider to have been well deserved. I have seen him interact in similar ways with others at DYK, though fortunately I have not had to interact with him there. I have however not seen him ever abusing his admin tools. I myself resigned my tools because I realized it was too hard for me to keep civil during heated engagements and when confronted with baiting behavior. TRM is able not to use swearwords and direct personal attacks. But almost all of his comments in conflicts are veiled personal attacks, or passive aggressive baiting. I don't think that is a good way for an admin to interact with others. I dont think he has violated any rule, but I also don't consider him to be a good administrator. I think a good admin is also ideally a nice person who treats others better than the mere rules require, but I realize that being a nice person is not something that many consider a central aspect of wikipedia, and I assume it is possible to be a reasonably good admin without being one. Whether to resign one's tools is everyone's own business. ·maunus · snunɐɯ·20:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Cheers Maunus, overlooking your own contentious behaviour when interacting with me, your analysis of me is close to my own. Hence the pledge to do better in this regard. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:44, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
As a piece of advice I would note that I have found resigning the tools to be a relief and while sometimes I wish I could make a deletion in preparation for a move I honestly don't really need them. I think you are probably, like me, a better content writer than administrator.·maunus · snunɐɯ·21:11, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
My thoughts - If you feel you're not being a good admin, resign the tools without prejudice and take a break. Dennis Brown did this earlier in the year and it seemed to be a good deal. Your boat race articles are still at GA standard as far as I know, and they are a good bit of work. If you don't resign under a cloud, you can get the tools back easily enough. Ritchie33320:46, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, as mentioned above, there is a cloud here, that I was blocked by a fellow admin just a day or two ago for an alleged BLP violation. This is cloud territory. Moreover, it's not that I feel any of my "admin" tasks are beyond me or conducted poorly, just that I have been castigated far and wide for not being a "good" admin (seemingly for behaviour I exhibit outside the making of admin decisions). As for the Boat Race stuff, yes, as far as I know, I currently have 163 good articles (including two women's race articles) and 3 featured articles. More to come that way, but that's nothing really to do with this. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:50, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Mixed blessing It might be seen as under a cloud if it he resigned the bit now, Ritchie333, since he started the recall process (I handed mine in because I just had filed for divorce, so was distracted). That said, I will opine, in a way TRM will understand: I think you are a flaming pain in the ass. You are often too gruff, you can be dismissive of others, and often can be compared to a bull in a china shop. I disagree with you regularly, and I'm sure I piss you off frequently as well. That said, I've never seen or would expect you to abuse the tools and your demeanor when acting as admin is well within expectations. I am comfortable with you keeping the tools. Dennis Brown - 2¢20:59, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Regarding the Kww block: he got a lot of serious pushback for it, including multiple editors and admins calling for an arb case. I think the institutional memory of it will follow him around for a long time even if there's no formal reprisal for the specific incident. And the underlying issue on your side was basically lame edit warring, a venial sin in the scheme of things if it doesn't happen too often. If you really want to wear the hairshirt over it, report yourself for 3RR and ask for an uninvolved admin to block you for 24h, after which you're good to go.
I've been more seriously annoyed by the friction you've gotten into at Refdesk/ITN/DYK and I urge you to tone it down if that's still going on (I don't keep tabs). At other times I've seen good analysis and judgment from you, enough that (maybe since I haven't looked at the problem areas too closely) I'd generally prefer that you stay on, maybe after taking a temporary break from adminning as others have said. I generally want to preserve what's possible of the remaining "Old Republic" DNA in the admin corps as a foil against the present-day bureaucracy even if it means occasional ludicrous incidents like the Antonio Martin thing. So I'd encourage you to self-reflect for a while on the areas where you've gotten in friction, and work out how to either avoid those areas or do better in them, while still maintaining reasonable standards in other areas. If you can do that, I'm satisfied. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:45, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I would urge you to continue to be an admin but to work harder to set a better example. Specifically be more civil, refrain from personal attacks, and try to communicate in a manner the de-escalates conflicts rather than drive off those seeking to communicate. Also, please don't edit war. We need admins and I would far rather you clean up your act than give up the bit. Chillum22:41, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
I in contrast urge you to resign as an admin. I will repost from the closed section above regarding you: "Pretty comfortable throwing his weight around at WP:ITN, where I have been watching him for years, as he drifts into borderline abuse repeatedly. I banned him from my Talk page just yesterday for posting what is a fine example of WP:BAIT: here is an admin coming to my page looking for a fight. In my long term observation, TRM is a bully who should desysopped." I repeat: came to my page looking for a fight, because I had previously questioned your posting an ITN item you had !voted on per WP:INVOLVED. No admin should use the snarky, hostile and combative rhetoric your position as admin allows you to get away with, which is a deeply ingrained habit. You abuse your power, and should give up the extra buttons. Jusdafax00:15, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment If you want to take a break from adminship but don't want to give up the bit under a potential cloud, just don't use any admin tools for awhile. Edit as if you don't have them. Once this incident blows over, you can decide to resign if you want and there won't be any question about whether you can re-admin just by asking a bureaucrat. 207.38.156.219 (talk) 00:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
(Non-administrator comment) I personally think you should keep your Admin rights and spend more time editing and mopping WP:FOOTY related articled, especially Ipswich Town stuff. You are an asset to the project overall; yes you can loose your cool but I think 99% of the time it's justified. I have never seen you abuse your Admin tools, you just get very grumpy ;) JMHamo (talk) 00:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall. Lawd knows TRM and I do not often get along personally, and we often butt heads on many issues, but I have never once seen him misuse his admin tools. The measure of an admin should only be in how they use their tools. TRM has never misused them to my notion, and there's room in the big world of Misplaced Pages for a wide range of personalities and experiences on Misplaced Pages. We will never be friends, but I will defend his admin status to the ends of the earth. He's always been a model admin in terms of his measured, careful use of his tools. As a double endorsement of his worthiness, he recognizes his own shortcomings above, and a self-reflective, self-aware person who is willing to grow is exactly the kind of person we want as an admin. Again, I do not approve of much of his interpersonal approach in dealing with people he disagrees with. But he's never let that bleed into his admin work, and it would be a loss to the community for him to lose his tools. --Jayron3202:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
also oppose recall Certainly I have been warned several times by TRM and also helped in situations by him. Over the course of many years feathers will get ruffled from time to time. But I can't think of any instances where he has abused his administrative authority. Maybe his fuse is a bit shorter from when he started but he acknowledged as much. It would be quite a shame not to have his experience in solving issues. If he really wants to step back, take a 30-60 day vacation from administrative chores. Stay an admin, don't resign the tools, but just do editing and nothing else. If you're feeling unappreciated, maybe that month would recharge the batteries. Fyunck(click) (talk) 08:46, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Just a quick comment to follow up on what was said above — if you take a one-year sabbatical and request the tools back later, it won't be a problem. Your admin rights will have been removed for inactivity, which isn't considered under a cloud, and by definition it's several months separated from any conflicts you're in right now. Nyttend (talk) 13:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I could, but since my sysop tools include being able to edit the main page, I'd prefer that not to be the case. Right now I'm pretty much dedicated to putting quality items at ITN and fixing ERRORS. I do block the odd vandal and protect the odd page, but that's in the minority. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
A desysop would be a bad idea; you're not indispensable, but you're much less dispensable than others, particularly at ITN, but also elsewhere. The reserved approach with the admin tools is admirable, as is the ability to crank out an amazing number of solid, quality articles while being an admin. I have found your willingness to jump immediately into full snark mode depressing sometimes; God knows I don't expect perfection, but I wish it happened less often than it does. I'd grudgingly support a too-grumpy TRM as an admin; I'd wholeheartedly endorse a less-grumpy TRM as one. --Floquenbeam (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment There's now an arbitration request open so I'd say file a statement and answer the case if needed. If the case is declined or if it closes without desysopping, I think that means there is not a cloud and it is ok to resign temporarily if that's what you want to do. 50.0.136.194 (talk) 21:32, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I'm largely in agreement with most of the above. I don't think you should resign as an admin. You haven't misused the tools and we are short of admins in most areas, including the ones I generally see you in. That said, it definitely wouldn't hurt if you made a conscious effort to try and be less abrasive in your dealings with other editors. Jenks24 (talk) 21:34, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Abrasive and fighty to some and in certain areas, yes; trustworthy in terms of the tools, also yes. If you do genuinely make an effort to 'moderate "snippiness"', then I don't believe you should be (self-)recalled. In the future, if an issue do raise your temperature, try walking away for a bit. Reduce your stress level, and also better for the pedia. On a side note regarding any passing cloud, I would say any resignation now would be under a cloud, but not because of the recent block, but because of the open ArbCom case request where you are named as a party. -- KTC (talk) 22:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
The Rambling Man, I voted for you for adminship over eight years ago and for bureaucratship over seven years ago. Do I regret those votes? No. Do I want you desysopped? No. Do I think that you need to make a few changes? Yes - because I think you're a good person, good editor and good admin, and I think the project would be worse off without you. If you feel as though you're been dragged into disputes of which you want no part, there is no shame in backing away from them. Some people above have noted that you can sometimes be hostile (I prefer "grumpy" as it's a less hostile word than the word "hostile"!) when dealing with people, especially with those who are causing you trouble; my answer to that is if you feel other editors are stressing you out, honestly, there is no shame - no shame at all - in someone with as much experience as yourself asking someone else for assistance. If nothing else, I certainly do recommend taking a break: it's amazing how taking a week or two (or a month) off refreshes one's enthusiasm for editing. Again, I continue to hold my long-standing positive impression of you and it is my preference that you remain as an admin; just take on board the advice that people have given you here and I think you'll be fine. Best. Acalamari22:27, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Resign From what I've seen, The Rambling Man routinely violates our behavioural guidelines such as WP:CIVIL, WP:OWN, WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:INVOLVED but he shows restraint in his use of tools like blocking and deletion and so his bark is worse than his bite. I can cope as I'm quite thick-skinned but it seems likely that other editors would be provoked or driven off by this nastiness. As admins are supposed to show exemplary behaviour, he should please give the role a rest and try to find some more congenial corner of the project to work in. If the break is somewhat voluntary, he might reasonably return to admin duties at some future time. Andrew D. (talk) 22:54, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Resign. The Rambling Man drove me from contributing from WP:ITN/C, and partly drove me into my semi-retirement (I lost confidence in the admin system, I'd name a few other high up people I've lost confidence in too, but it's not the time for that) There are so many sections on AN/I's archives that contain the word TRM, I can't believe he still has tools, and that scares me. One of those AN/I sections is this, where I disastrously tried to get action taken against him. I don't understand why people here are blind to what I see. TRM has given far enough trouble. I can't really say when he's misused his admin tools, but only numerous abuse cases of his editing tools, and surely someone who abuses editing tools shouldn't be trusted with sysop tools. The community's handling of TRM's behavior is a reason that I think that Misplaced Pages doesn't have a bright future (and therefore discouraging me from contributing). This wiki-depresses me (seriously). --AmaryllisGardener02:05, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment Full disclosure; TRM and I are parties to the IBAN which TRM mentions in his opening statement as having been temporarily blocked for violating. (Baseball Bugs and I sought that IBAN when a dispute between TRM and myself at ITN ended up with TRM following me to other pages, especially the Reference Desks, where somehow BBB and I became conflated in his aggressive behaviour.) I'll speak here, given he has brought up the issue and invited comment. My opinion largely parallels the comments of Baseball Bugs and Jayron above. TRM has had some serious issues dealing civilly with other users as an editor himself. But I have never seen him once abuse his admin privileges.
It is largely for this reason that I argued TRM should not remain blocked when he violated the terms of our IBAN last autumn. There has been a little bit of gamesmanship by him since (and there was a lot when the IBAN was first instituted the prior winter, diffs upon request), but I felt at the time that the permanent mark should be and was enough. Given I don't see diffs regarding this latest issue, I cannot comment on it. But the bottom line is that the "problem" with TRM is not as an admin but as a user.
Had anyone asked me a year ago, my opinion would have been adamant that TRM should be desysopped. His behaviour is hostile enough in general that it is unbecoming an admin, and I cannot see that he would ever become an admin at this point were he not already grandfathered in. But that's a problem with adminship in general, not something that TRM has caused. My belief is that the admin system needs fixing, with term limits and a lottery giving some privileges to experienced users in good standing. Anything to break up the permanent old-boy's-club we have now, which I think drives away a lot of older and professional contributors with no desire to become wikilawyering experts.
But frankly, the loss of TRM's admin work at ITN would be a huge blow. I would suggest that something like a plea-bargained deal be arranged. Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn.
I see the point of those who call for TRM's resignation. I also see that while he's a frigging pain in the arse, he doesn't abuse his position other than by besmirching it with his unbecoming behaviour. I think something absolutely should be done, something or record here or at arbitration, and by decree if not voluntarily. But I think this thread is a good palm branch, TRM is a valuable contributor when he contributes, and we should keep the good of the project in mind above our own personal grievances.
Thank you Medeis, this is one of the most useful and pragmatic contributions: "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." That seems entirely reasonable, and if it's formally documented exactly what behaviour is disallowed then that would be easier to manage than endless ANI complaints.-- Aronzak (talk) 18:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Do not resign. I asked for anyone here showing me specific diffs showing abuse of tools. None were provided. Resignation or desysoping is the answer when you cannot be trusted with the tools. The answer when multiple editors tell you that you have been acting like a jerk is to stop acting like a jerk. It really is that simple. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Guy, it's not just about the tools – Misplaced Pages:Administrators#Administrator conduct (aside: this needs a shortcut – I'd suggest WP:ADMINCON or WP:ADMINCOND or something...) is an actual thing: "However, sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages is incompatible with the status of administrator, and consistently or egregiously poor judgment may result in the removal of administrator status. Administrators should strive to model appropriate standards of courtesy and civility to other editors and to one another." This, and a recent statement at ArbCom, confirm that Admins can lose the bit for other than just straight "abuse of tools". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
My thanks to IJBall and to BMK for the pertinent shortcut. IJBall has said in different words, and citing the actual policy repeatedly violated by TRM, that I have tried to emphasize in my own statement here, and at the ArbCom case request. We also have a user stating they were driven away from ITN by the abusive comments TRM indulges in. Enough. TRM, you need to resign the tools at once. It's the decent thing to do. Jusdafax05:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Seriously? "Sustained or serious disruption of Misplaced Pages"? Evidence, please. Show me the diffs. All I have seen so far is some rudeness that, while undesirable, wouldn't get an ordinary editor blocked. Especially without being warned and given a chance to change his behavior. The words "triggerhappy" and "bloodthirsty" come to mind... --Guy Macon (talk) 05:37, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, the thing is, we aren't talking about "my" issues with TRM, so I can't provide much in the way of diffs (this is literally my only "semi-bad" interaction with TRM, and that didn't break my skin, though neither did I consider it "constructive"...). But neither am I going to ignore the comments of other editors here (especially in regards to the ITN section), nor can I ignore the numerous cases I've seen come through ANI about TRM. Again, it doesn't satisfy me that "an Admin hasn't abused the tools", as I expect more from an Admin than that. And creating enough of a "hostile environment" that it's a pervasive issue with a significant segment of the community is enough for me to see an Admin desysopped. I'm not saying that TRM is at the level – but if ArbCom is taking this case, I'd sure like them to look in to that, as well as Kww's block. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 06:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I have no problem with either ANI or arbcom opening a case, examining the evidence, and desysoping TRM if that's where the evidence leads. In this thread I am basically asking for the same thing. My message to everyone here is this: either post diffs that you believe are evidence of either misuse of tools or sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages, or don't ask TRM to resign as administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:24, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall This got started because of Kww's misuse of the tools. The fact that TRM refused to do the same shows who can be trusted. MarnetteD|Talk05:11, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall I've only skimmed the earlier ANI and comments here. It seems to me TRM didn't do anything particularly alarming or concerning besides argue with someone who appears to have been in the wrong. I also would like to see diffs - everyone (not that there are many) who has claimed TRM is disruptive, you should back up your claims with diffs! Show us what he's done! Otherwise I just have to assume it's something personal. —Мандичка 😜 06:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall. I oppose recalling TRM because I have never seem him abuse his admin powers, nor do I see evidence of him doing so here. Like all of us, he is not a perfect human being or Wikipedian and he admits the things he needs to work on and from what I know I believe he is doing so. I don't expect any editor or admin to act perfectly all the time. In the past we have had strong disagreements (which I likely am part responsible for) but they had nothing to do with his admin powers. I don't think they need to be removed. 331dot (talk) 12:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
@331dot: you stated "Your sarcasm toward other, especially new users, hardly helps improve Misplaced Pages." (this was linked in a previous ANI issue raising conduct complaints) - given that this is what people have an issue with, can you comment on Medeis's suggestion "Perhaps TRM can voluntarily accept a limit of no personal comments and no more than two comments per thread at ITN (and on other talk pages, if warranted)? Something significant along those lines would allow TRM to continue his good work, but would put a damper on the impulse to argue every point until blood is drawn." -- Aronzak (talk) 18:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
@Aronzak: From what I have seen since I made that comment, I think he has been trying to get better. Maybe he hasn't always been successful but what matters is that he seems to recognize that he needs to continue to improve. If he thinks such a voluntary restriction would help him improve, he should do it, but that is up to him. If done, I think a time limit on it would be reasonable, such as six months or a year. 331dot (talk) 18:26, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
All, how would this voluntary restriction work? I am being accused of being a piss-poor communicator and a grumpy old sod (which I've accepted in my opening statement), yet my admin actions are not being scrutinised in any way. I don't see how not fixing main page errors, not posting ready items to ITN, not tweaking TFA and TFL and TFP blurbs would help here? According to the "stats" I have made 60 admin actions over the past year which are logged as such, i.e. in deletes, protects and blocks. Not one of those has been brought into question. I could work sans bit for months, but it would just mean that ERRORS, TFL, ITN, DYK, TFA and TFP would have unaddressed issues for longer than necessary. Is that it? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:31, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Martin, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, your subtle comments are way beyond most of the readers here. They confuse a lot of people around here. Please restrict them to my talk page or other, more appropriate venues. And in the meantime, no, I'm not being sar'carstic in any way. Although I did spend some time with Neil Wheedon Watkins Pye's dad, about twenty years ago... I will try to fix things. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
The Rambling Man, one way is to limit where you participate, to limit the reasons to get grumpy. IE: Work at ITN but not at DYK. I quit doing any DYK work and removed all DYK pips from my user page, in part from your work there. My opinion is that you are overly rigid in your interpretation of the standards (as are a couple others), and it puts off off new editors. To me, that is an editor retention concern, and if given the chance, would vote to simply remove DYK as a liability. l quit and unwatched all pages because I have better things to fight over. I actively discourage new editors from participating at DYK. Dennis Brown - 2¢11:06, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks Dennis Brown. I restrict my edits at DYK now to simply copyediting every item that gets thrust into the preps and queues. Incidentally, new editors are more likely to be dissuaded by the arcane use of templates, QPQ process, transcluding, vetting, prepping and queueing than a more stringent adherence to writing in grammatically correct and encyclopedically toned English. But that is just my opinion. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:18, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure about which "voluntary restriction" you're talking about, but if you get your civility issues resolved, then this whole series of AN/I threads can have a good ending. I've said it before and I'll say it again, that would be a better ending than a desysoping. Regards, --AmaryllisGardener18:49, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, a number of people commenting have suggested I temporarily resign or refrain from using my admin rights, as a voluntary restriction imposed upon myself. My point above was that I generally "use" my admin rights to update the main page, ITN, DYK, ERRORS, etc etc, and don't usually use them to do anything else. I don't believe anyone has suggested my updates to the main page, or fixes from ERRORS has been mishandled. And yes, I've already committed to making a concerted effort to improve the indicated communication issues, that formed part of my opening statement in this very thread. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:10, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
A number of people commenting have suggested that you temporarily resign or refrain from using your admin rights while refusing to provide a single diff that shows a good reason why you should do that. Yes, you have been uncivil. Not enough to support even a 1-day block, but it is there. The solution to that is to talk it over with your colleagues (which you have done) and try to tone it down (which you have said you will do). Nothing else is required. We need you and we need your tools. Nobody else would have tried to address the PC2 issue on the PCI page. There is a case where your having the tools was invaluable (all I could have done is complained and gotten stonewalled). The only thing I would have changed is having you discuss controversial actions like that before doing them, (even if they shouldn't be controversial) but as far as what you did you did the right thing. And have you noticed the current protection level on that particular page? You have not misused the tools you have not engaged in sustained/serious disruption of Misplaced Pages. You should not resign. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:53, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall. You're a fantastic Wikipedian, who has contributed so much. Allow me to elaborate:
I think you've been a bit worn down by things in the last while, particularly, if I may suggest, by a perception that some Wikipedians tolerate (maintain, even fight for) low standards in various nooks and crannies of the pedia. I don't know whether imposing some kind of artificial restraints on yourself will help, I suspect not, but I do know that throwing aside the tools will not help you or Misplaced Pages.
Instead, I'll refer you back to User:Dweller/Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values, which you were the second person to sign up to. While any of us can fall short of the optimal standards of behaviour, we are after all, human, it's good to aspire to them.
This has been a courageous (if bonkers) thing to do, but I commend you on your self-analysis and look forward to seeing the shiny old TRM re-emerging - to be honest, the c.2007 version of TRM was pretty much the model for the Old Fashioned Wikipedian Values. --Dweller (talk) 09:12, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
There probably has been grumpiness and there have certainly been some comments that have been perceived as incivil, yet no-one is seriously suggesting misuse of the tools. Taking a break from tool use isn't the answer here, but it might be an idea to refocus for while on an area where you are less likely to get into disagreements. If we can get someone to refresh the report, I would suggest you spend some time doing a trawl of Misplaced Pages:Database reports/Editors eligible for Autopatrol privilege. No need to say anything to the editors on that list who don't yet merit the Autopatrol flag, but there are lots of overlooked uncontentious editors out there and it is difficult to be grumpy when you find them, set them as Autopatroller and say hi on their talkpage. You might even find a few who would be interested in DYK etc if they but knew of them. ϢereSpielChequers10:50, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Oppose recall. While I haven't interacted with TRM much, it looks like he hasn't abused his admin tools at all, and that the only problems with him are as an editor. Also, TRM's work at WP:ITN is appreciated. Epic Genius (talk) 12:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
None of your actions would make me think you are a bad admin. Your willing to work with the community and the recent issues should no use of admin tools only editorial judgement.BletheringScot22:02, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment: The Rambling Man has serious problems getting along with other editors, and ofttimes, the manner in which he reviews articles comes off as arrogant. These problems need to be addressed. But he resigning his tools ain't the way to do it. pbp22:23, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Do not resign as you've definitely been an overall net positive and are well-intentioned, even if your actions aren't always ideal. Snuggums (talk / edits) 07:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
How can that be? In an admin recall discussion, unless there are predetermined recall criteria – in which case an uninvolved editor could potentially close the discussion as having met or not met the recall conditions – the discussion is over when the admin in question either does or does not decide to turn in the bit. The only difference here is that the recall discussion was started by The Rambling Man himself, which changes nothing. Since TRM did not have a previously announced set of recall criteria, he is the only one who can judge the result of this discussion, by deciding whether he will step down or continue to be an admin. For that reason, I oppose the closing of this thread by anyone except TRM himself. BMK (talk) 02:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree with BMK. TRM is an admin and former bureaucrat. He should have (has, in my opinion) the ability to neutrally discern consensus even in a conversation about himself. TRM should close this, ideally with a short commentary and next steps (if any). Pedro : Chat 07:31, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Certainly agree with the above - that it's down to TRM, but if TRM would like a neutral closer, I'm available. Worm(talk) 13:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
As I said in my opening statement: "Naturally, I will stand by the result of the consensus as closed by an uninvolved admin". I thought that was pretty clear, I didn't feel the need to develop a set of recall criteria, it was "should I or should I not retain the admin flag" and many people have commented for and against. The Rambling Man (talk) 14:07, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
In the past few hours, Ali qahremani has done nothing but create articles which plagiarize different sources, under titles that are only related to the article topic, in may cases topics that should be covered by existing articles. User does not respond to any messages, even when a non-template one was sent. Conservation may not be the best option. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:02, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
In some cases, this is slightly more complicated than it appears at first blush. In some of these articles there is an indicator of the copyright problem but the duplication detector report shows no overlap. While not having confirmed this my guess is that the copied material comes from the text of the article as opposed to the abstract. In one case Oncogene virus I'm puzzled, as the attempted an article is clearly a copy of the abstract, yet the duplication detector report shows no overlap. I haven't fully investigated why but this puzzles me. However because the editor manages to include the copyright notice in the article, and in at least one case there is substantial overlap, it makes sense to stop this editor and make sure they engage in discussion.--S Philbrick(Talk)20:08, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
Eyeballing it confirms the copyvio (or at least enough of a copyvio), I'd have to guess that something's gone wrong with the copyvio detection software(s). Ian.thomson (talk) 20:57, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
The new batch of articles he has created seems almost exclusively machine translations from the equivalent Persian Misplaced Pages articles. Per WP:MACHINETRANSLATION, these really ought to be deleted. They also have no valid sources.--Anders Feder (talk) 19:12, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Like the articles I referred to above, User:Alidezhpasand/صفحه تمرین is also a machine translation of a Persian Misplaced Pages article (compare: ). McGeddon has raised the possibility that Alidezhpasand (contribs | filter log) is an alternate account of Alidezh1559 (contribs | filter log). Pages created by the latter are also based on machine translations of Persian Misplaced Pages (compare e.g. vs. ). It could be a coincidence that all these accounts decided to fill Misplaced Pages with machine translations within the span of the same two days, but I suspect it is not.--Anders Feder (talk) 02:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I apologize for the long post, but I feel it is necessary for the reader to get a full sense of the entire picture. A TL;DR summary is at the end for convenience.
AnulBanul (talk·contribs) is an account that demonstrably belongs to user Wüstenfuchs (talk·contribs) a fact that runs counter to his blatant lie that he has "no connection to the said user whatsoever". The user, in spite of his "Armenian who lived in Serbia" persona , has never once edited the Armenian Misplaced Pages (hy.wikipedia.org) or Serbian Misplaced Pages (sr.wikipedia.org). Note that Wüstenfuchs joined WikiProject Armenia and that later AnulBanul joined WikiProject Armenia as editing from Georgia then Russia . He then began building his persona changing his intitial name from Anulmanul to Anna Sahakyan , then Anushka , then Yerevani Axjik , and then to his current name AnulBanul. He then uploaded a selfie image to presumably impersonate a person named Anna Sahakyan from Yerevan that he took off a Facebook profile or VK (Russian social networking website). He proceeded to use that image on his userpage and refer to himself as "Anna" and created a backstory for the said individual. Numerous FB and VK profiles exist under that name, but I won't link any for their privacy.
Note that AnulBanul instead edits the Croatian Misplaced Pages which when he does concerns right-wing and far-right Croatian politicians and parties. which is quite odd when the user labels himself a liberal from the University of Belgrade. Indeed it's hard to believe it's anyone other than him when he does such obscure and specific edits such as (among the litany of other identical ones shown below). Note that the Wüstenfuchs account became inactive on 20 September 2014, two days later the AnulBanul account became active on 22 September 2014. The last edit of Wüstenfuchs (Bilal Bosnić, ISIL recruiter) and first edit of AnulBanul (Military intervention against ISIL) are both related to Islamic extremism. Further note that Wüstenfuchs' Mostar IP was blocked for block evading in order to edit war. That same IP (93.180.104.124 (talk·contribs)) edited three articles, all of which were created by Wüstenfuchs and all of which were later edited by AnulBanul/Wüstenfuchs with the same POV: Avdo Humo (IP: , AnulBanul: ), Hasan Brkić (IP: , Wüstenfuchs ), and Osman Karabegović (IP: , Wüstenfuchs: )
On 26 May AnulBanul was topic banned from anything related to Bosnia and Herzegovina for 3 months Immediately the day after he proceeded to vandalize a Bosnia and Herzegovina related userbox in order to troll. A week later he violated his topic ban via IPs 185.38.146.201 (talk·contribs) and 93.180.126.249 (talk·contribs) both Mostar IPs. Both have the same exact lines and POV on obscure articles with one of them being pushed against Dragodol, his edit warring buddy that was also topic banned, in the Nijaz Duraković article and in the Jovan Divjak article the same exact line of unsourced nonsense that he was a "show general". Note that the 93.180.126.249 Mostar IP's contributions on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He picks up where Wustenfuchs and AnulBanul left off on the Croatian Party of Rights of Bosnia and Herzegovina article and on the Croatian Democratic Union 1990 article where his Herr Ziffer (blocked) and Wustenfuchs accounts formerly edited and on the Croatian Party of Rights (Bosnia and Herzegovina) article where Wustenfuchs formerly edited. Another IP (blocked) that edited all those same articles in the same manner also created the Nijaz Duraković article on the Croatian Misplaced Pages. He later admitted that those were indeed his IPs however those were not the only topic ban evading IPs. Other discovered evading IPs that AnulBanul did not disclose include 85.94.128.192 (talk·contribs), 46.35.153.151 (talk·contribs), and 46.35.131.167 (talk·contribs) and there are more than likely many others out there. The story does not stop with using IPs to just topic ban evade as he has also used them to vandalize, commit BLP violations, edit war and circumvent 3RR, etc and the AnulBanul account is not the only sockpuppet he has and has used the K. Solin (talk·contribs) and RossaLuxx (talk·contribs) accounts to split his edits, evade scrutiny, and have sleeper accounts. There may be many more such accounts out there.
Evidence that ties the accounts together:
AnulBanul
First ever upload on commons by AnulBanul was uploading a map of the Croatian 2014 presidential election , this same map was added to the Croatian presidential election, 2014–15 article by a Mostar IP , the same Mostar IP created the Teroristički napad u Mostaru 1997. (1997 Terrorist Attack in Mostar) article on the Croatian Misplaced Pages which AnulBanul later created on the English Misplaced Pages as Mostar terrorist attack
Wüstenfuchs joined WikiProject Armenia , later AnulBanul joined the WP as editing from Georgia then Russia
Dragan Čović, AnulBanul uploaded an image of the Bosnian Croat politician and credited it to Herr Ziffer Herr Ziffer was Wustenfuchs' sockpuppet handle at commons
Talk:Croatian Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia, removal of WikiProject Former countries by Wüstenfuchs , later same removal of WikiProject Former countries by AnulBanul
addition of "illegitimate representative" content and reference stuffed by Wüstenfuchs , sources replaced (note sfn template) by K. Solin
removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by K. Solin , removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by Mostar IP , removal of information relating to Georgetown University degree by AnulBanul
Dragan Čović: infobox updated by K. Solin , infobox updated by AnulBanul
Milan Gorkić: created by Wüstenfuchs , updated by AnulBanul and K. Solin (note same HHVM tag)
Canton 10: cantonal assembly updated by K. Solin , by Mostar IP , by AnulBanul
Commons: Both at the University of Mostar specifically the Faculty of Philosophy/Humanities. Use identical name format using (1), (2), (3), etc. Use identical licensing and summary.
AnulBanul uploaded images of a speaker at the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar
AnulBanul uploaded images of the exterior of the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar
K. Solin uploaded images of a speaker at the Faculty of Philosophy, University of Mostar
K. Solin updated logo of Faculty of Law, University of Mostar intially uploaded by Herr Ziffer
RossaLuxx
First edit ever edit on Croatian Misplaced Pages was creating a sophisticated userpage with a gradient and image. Note the code in RossaLuxx's page <div style="background-color:{{prijelazna boja|top|#000000, #CC0000}};">
[[Datoteka: and compare to AnulBanul's page <div style="background-color:{{linear-gradient|top|#fdffe7, #FFFFFF}};">[[File:
Added category to AnulBanul's File:Croatia 2014 map results.PNG upload , then uploaded File:Croatia 2015 map results runoff.PNG in same style of original, same summary, and same license
Mostar IP added AnulBanul's File:Croatia 2014 map results.PNG upload , 13 days later RossaLuxx added File:Croatia 2015 map results runoff.PNG using near identical description
Herr Ziffer
Žitomislić: Herr Ziffer blaming destruction of a church on different army, , AnulBanul blaming destruction of same church on same army , later he claimed that he "wasn't aware" that he made the edit
Bitka za Karvačar: Herr Ziffer uploaded File:Bitka za Karvačar.jpg map on commons , the map was added to the article by Wüstenfuchs , article edited by K. Solin (note there are only 4 editors who have ever edited the page )
Dragan Čović: AnulBanul uploaded a crop of Herr Ziffer's copyvio image
Rafael Boban: image uploaded by Herr Ziffer , added to article by Wüstenfuchs
Note almost all of his discovered accounts have been indef blocked on various Wikis for tendentious editing and sockpuppetry:
Wüstenfuchs (hr)
AnulBanul (hr)
Herr Ziffer (bs, hr)
Wustefuchs (bs, commons)
Wustenfuchs (bs, commons)
K. Solin (hr)
RossaLuxx
Ayohayem
As shown above the user shows a propensity to evade scrutiny throughout Wikis by constant logged out IP hopping, fragmenting edit history among new accounts, and making sleeper accounts. In addition to this he has also:
Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul in order to commit sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, and libel by referring to a man as a "shithead" ("govnar") in Serbo-Croatian and pretending it's his surname
Used a Mostar IP of Anulbanul to immaturely troll on the Valentin Inzko article and has even vandalised a "on this day" template he personally dislikes while logged in
Used Mostar IPs to help initiate and facilitate edit wars, avoid 3RR, and then report the other user
His Wustefuchs and Wustenfuchs accounts were both blocked on commons "unfree files after warnings" and abuse of multiple accounts. Despite this he has evaded his block via sockpuppets and continued to purposefully upload copyrighted material under false CC licenses with his Herr Ziffer, AnulBanul, and K: Solin handles as the authors.
Uploading as AnulBanul an image crop of a file uploaded by Herr Ziffer which was removed for copyright violation
Uploading as K. Solin an image crop of a file uploaded by AnulBanul which was removed for copyright violation
Uploading an image taken from while claiming he made it and falsifying the license
Uploading an image taken from while claiming he made it and falsifying the license
Uploading several other copyright infringing images as sockpuppets Herr Ziffer and AnulBanul
TL;DR:
In summary his activity on Misplaced Pages involves:
The absolute denial of any connection to his sockpuppet AnulBanul account and creation and non-disclosure of any other sockpuppet and sleeper accounts (K. Solin, RosaLuxx, etc)
The impersonation of an Armenian female individual named Anna Sahakyan from Yerevan to appear more neutral, completely unrelated to past edits/accounts, and assume her identity (even going so far as to upload her selfie image) in order to deceive other users
The constant splitting of his past edit history through new accounts and IP hopping to game the system, sockpuppeteer, deceive users, vandalize, commit BLP violations, circumvent 3RR, and avoid scrutiny
The forging of a clean slate that is without previous ARBMAC warnings and blocks to appear in good standing and receive more leeway around admins
The willingness to repeatedly avoid blocks and topic bans if he was sure he wouldn't be caught
I have not once edited with any of those accounts at the English Misplaced Pages, except Wustenfuchs, and I have the right to do so, I can switch to another account for several personal reasons. This was in order to protect my privacy and to protect myself from vandal attacks and other attacks after I edited several pages related to the Syrian civil war back in 2012. It is not my fault that Wikimedia creates accounts on all wikis if you create an account on a Croatian one. Those accounts remained inactive and will remain so. I was blocked for using IPs on your report, and my block ended today. Moreover, I said those were my IPs. Another thing, you will respect my gender identity. I'm not "he". --AnulBanul (talk) 03:51, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
Good to know you that finally admit to the fact that Wüstenfuchs is indeed your account after claiming that you had "no connection to the said user whatsoever" and again admit to editing from Mostar and not Armenia, Serbia, Georgia, or Russia as you wished to purposely mislead others into believing.
The valid reasons for multiple accounts are listed here. None of them state that doing what you claim to have done it for is valid. In any event all the edits of the K. Solin, Herr Ziffer, RossaLux accounts were in 2014 and so have nothing to do with some 2012 harassment.
Nonsense those accounts have edits on English Misplaced Pages and correspond with your POV as demonstrated by a litany of diffs. Accounts are automatically made when you visit Misplaced Pages in another language (that's understandable), but you not only did this and edited on the English Misplaced Pages. You edited the Milan Gorkić page on 27 November 2014 as AnulBanul with HHVM (note tag in summary) and then three days later as K. Solin on 30 November 2014 with HHVM Adding content as AnulBanul and picking up where you left off as K. Solin with references you had previously added as Wüstenfuchs. But I suppose that the brand new account adding info in your POV in an obscure article that you created with the same 1984 Croatian work you used is not you?
In my past correspondences to you as Wüstenfuchs I referred to you in male pronouns (Misplaced Pages is overwhelmingly male) and you never raised this issue, and up until this point the same with your AnulBanul account. I have a hard time believing that you're a female... or that your name is actually Anna, or that you are Armenian, or that you studied at the University of Belgrade, or that you were born and lived in Yerevan, or that that is your selfie image. More likely you are impersonating some poor girl using her name, photo, and location to deceive users. --Potočnik (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
It is clearly my name is not Anna, as I said, I used this previous account. You can proceede with sock puppet investigation, if you wish. I'll admit I used K. Solin as my account. But had no intention of hiding my edit history. If that's wrongful, I'll suffer the consequences. --AnulBanul (talk) 08:17, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be shocked if others don't jump in on this, very much TLDR. Let me clear up a couple of things here and allow you to restate the things that really matter: First, whatever happens at Commons or other Wikis, we don't really care so much here. We have no authority there, the rules are different on different wikis, so our focus is really on activity HERE, under most circumstances. Having the account does't matter, only what you do with it matters.
Next, ANI is the wrong venue for a sockpuppet investigation, and in fact, it is the worst possible venue because it doesn't generate all the autolinks for investigating and ANI isn't a formal board like SPI. Regardless it is here, but you've made it more difficult to investigate.
What really matters most is overlapping edits on the same article, etc. Secondarily, a clear showing of avoiding scrutiny. If they are avoiding an Arb warning, you can typically just add that Arb warning to their page and be done with it. If they are using multiple accounts for reasons under WP:SOCK that are acceptable, then they aren't sanctionable. It isn't clear because you have focused on quantity rather than simple linkage here. Can you please narrow it down to what really matters. Dennis Brown - 2¢06:45, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I mentioned commons and the other Wikipedias to demonstrate that the behavior isn't restricted to a single language or part of Misplaced Pages and to show what he has a propensity for doing. I didn't dwell on it much. A sockpuppet investigation shouldn't be necessary in the first place as users who do have multiple accounts are supposed to have them "fully and openly disclosed" and not create personas for them, deny any connection to them, and keep them hidden. But if you insist then I'll post the matter there also. None of the valid reasons for using multiple accounts is applicable here. As shown above he has been "avoiding scrutiny" by "using alternative accounts that are not fully and openly disclosed to split your editing history means that other editors may not be able to detect patterns in your contributions. (...) it is a violation of this policy to create alternative accounts to confuse or deceive editors who may have a legitimate interest in reviewing your contributions" (AnulBanul, K. Solin) and "editing logged out to mislead" by "editing under multiple IP addresses may be treated the same as editing under multiple accounts where it is done deceptively or otherwise violates the principles of this policy." (edit war and avoid 3RR, delete sourced info, POV push, sneaky vandalism, a BLP violation, troll) --Potočnik (talk) 14:24, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
The point is, you muddy the waters when you add all that extra stuff. Show links to articles where he edited first as an editor, then as another editor or IP. Those are facts, all the other stuff just makes it too long to read and determine. Sockpuppet investigating is about dry facts, no opinions. Honestly, WP:SPI is where it needs to go, as you are claiming four accounts, and there is the need for a formal board where random input from other editors isn't an issue. They key is getting it right, not getting it fast or in the ANI crowd. Dennis Brown - 2¢15:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
I agree this goes beyond sockpuppet as it seems to be all about long-term gaming the system and may need to go to arbitration. Even if it's tl;dr, I read and it's good detective work. The whole back story doesn't matter (there's no problem to invent an identity, outside of taking someone else's photo) except it's very easy to prove untrue and thus provides no plausible alternative as to another identity. Additionally, someone who goes to extravagant lengths to edit here is not likely to be dissuaded by the usual sock blocks. AnulBanul, if you are an Armenian (or Russian-Armenian, by your name Anushka) would you prefer to discuss this situation in Armenian or Russian? You only edited one article on the Russian Misplaced Pages and I can't understand it - in the infobox, you changed the link to Split (town) to Split (the disambiguation)... a bit odd. —Мандичка 😜 07:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
No. The one where I said, that I created additional account in order to distance myself from possible vandalisms made on my old Wustenfuchs account, after editing Syrian civil war topic. --AnulBanul (talk) 13:07, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
What vandalism against Wüstenfuchs? Your account was already blocked! You made AnulBanul in September 2014, right after Wüstenfuchs was finally blocked on the Croatian Wiki. (Btw, Wüstenfuchs was blocked for two-years after 19 PREVIOUS blocks on the Croatian Wiki. Wüstenfuchs was also blocked eight times on the English Wiki.) Then you made K. Solin in November 2014. So you didn't just make one additional account, you made at least two.... all to "protect yourself" from retribution against edits you made two years earlier? —Мандичка 😜 14:25, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Keep picking and it all falls apart. First he claimed he had "no connection whatsoever" to the Wüstenfuchs account and that it wasn't his, then claimed all accounts but the Wüstenfuchs account weren't his, and then claimed all but the Wüstenfuchs and K. Solin accounts weren't his. Note he's deleted his AnulBanul userpage likely to make evidentiary diffs of his user page null and to make the RossaLuxx claim unverifiable. --Potočnik (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Proposal to take this to arbitration. I have been trying to go through all this information across the various wikis and admin reports, admissions of using multiple accounts without disclosure, admissions of ban evasion, admissions of violating topic bans, etc. I don't think ANI or SPI is the right place for either as the response will be "tl;dr" which is benefiting AnulBanul, as is the "different wikis have different policies" reasoning. He created the AnulBanul account after being given a two-year ban on the Croatian Misplaced Pages, in order to evade the ban (behavior not allowed on any Misplaced Pages) and AnulBanul was indeffed on the Croatian Wiki after being caught. As AnulBanul's favorite topics are areas under oversight, I think it needs to be taken to arbitration. Taking a random person's someone's photo off the Internet and uploading it to Commons as a "self-portrait" in order to use it on the a Misplaced Pages userpage to disguise oneself (sorry, this is not you ) is a significant violation of the rules, and should be investigated. —Мандичка 😜 12:33, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You don't propose to take it to Arb, you either take it there or you don't. Please note that if you haven't even filed an SPI so a formal investigation can be done (and likely completely deal with since they can deal with anything, even behavior, and use Checkuser) then it will surely get thrown out. Arb is the final step after everything else has failed, not the first. Dennis Brown - 2¢15:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
See my comment to Мандичка above. SPI is unnecessary and the evidence against the other two accounts are just as definitive. --Potočnik (talk) 16:55, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
OK struck out the proposal part. But my intention was to ask the people more familiar if they would like to take it to Arbitration. I just became aware of this situation, but it seems to me that the usual check user/ANI is not being effective in this case and are only of slight inconvenience to this editor. There are not enough people interested in taking the time to wade through this information on ANI. There is considerable, very aggressive gaming the system to avoid blocks and topic bans on multiple wikis, going back to at least 2008, all in order to make disruptive posts, and IMO there needs to be some kind of global checkuser to see the full extent. I've never created an Arb case so I don't know how to proceed. —Мандичка 😜 19:54, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Well, this is certainly cut-and-dried. The report is a bit TLDR, but its pretty blatant when you take a look. Uh.. will someone step in? -- Director (talk) 09:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Director, I honestly don't know what it is going to take for anyone to actually pay attention. Dennis Brown's response ("that's too long for me to be expected to read") is indicative of the apathy that has allowed this to go on. —Мандичка 😜 09:04, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Given his personal hostility to a known and established writer, his insistence on smearing him, I ask that he be sanctioned by being asked to refrain from editing any articles or pages where Blumenthal is being cited or discussed.Nishidani (talk) 17:29, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This means that you think striking out a smear is not compliance with policy, but bending to a threat by another editor who is acting as a censor. If you believe Blumenthal, against all the evidence, is an anti-Semite, and a bigot (as opposed to a critic of bigotry, you shouldn't be editing anywhere near articles where he is cited, or discussions boards regarding him as a source. My sensitivities have nothing to do with it.Nishidani (talk) 17:43, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
This is a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent. Notice the sanction being requested (for an alleged first offense by a relatively new user) would solve a problem for Nishidani, not the encyclopedia. The encyclopedia's problem, as far as there is one, was solved when "bigot" was struck out. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Another personal attack, as several on the page. I am asking for an independent judgement not a partisan harangue by either side. Nishidani (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Ok, Nishidani. I recognize I made a mistake. I should have chosen my words more carefully. Strong words like "antisemite" and "bigoted" are not appropriate, even when they were written in the heat of discussion, as you may understand (in response to the "repulsive Jewish state" you mentioned). I won't repeat those words again. Could we move on with the main subject of the debate, which is to determine whether Blumenthal is a reliable source or not?--Averysoda (talk) 19:01, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Did you read his comment just above yours? You neglected to mention he removed the comment you reference above, 15 minutes after posting it and before you brought it up here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:59, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Did you follow the sequence of events before claiming a pretty clear attempt to get rid of an opponent? Cus I see the user declining to strike claims that a living person is a bigoted anti-semite until this was brought here. Might be a better idea to advise your pal to not smear living people on Misplaced Pages instead of arguing with the people who specifically asked him to remove the comment at his or her talk page before anyone brought it up here. And even after being brought here, its not that the smear has no place here, its that Averysoda thinks the problem is offending sensitivities. You know what is pretty clear here? When a user goes through these acrobatics at AN/I it isnt because they actually recognize a mistake, its that they are worried about being sanctioned so they say whatever they think they need to so that they may avoid that. Oh, and its also pretty clear that a support network will come to their aid in waving off any problem instead of trying to take them aside and informing them that we have certain standards of behavior here, and insulting living people without basis violates that. nableezy - 16:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
It's pretty clear that most of your edits in the last month were either reverting or talking about edits by the subject of this report, regardless of a BLP violation. I doubt your ability to read their mind (or perhaps you were just projecting). It's also pretty clear that a new editor is unlikely to respond well to this kind of "request". And lastly, it's pretty clear that treating new editors harshly doesn't serve Misplaced Pages's dwindling editor count that well, either.
He made a minor BLP violation and corrected it. Please explain why you are agitating for a sanction for a first offence that was corrected fairly quickly. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I didnt know my edits were the subject here. Or yours for that matter. Calling a living person an anti-semite and a bigot is not a minor BLP violation and refusing to take it down when asked to by 2 editors until an AN/I report is filed, and then saying that they are taking it down to rectify the offense to another's sensitivities is not correcting it fairly quickly. I havent agitated for anything by the way. Id just like to see a Misplaced Pages in which people dont rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating, and instead tries to advise them what the proper thing to do is. Guess that aint what this place is yet tho. nableezy - 20:17, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A. He called him a bigot, not an anti-semite. B. It was corrected within 2 hours and 7 minutes. That's fairly quickly in my book. C. I'm fairly certain he now understands what he can and can't say re living persons. D. Do I need to show some examples of you "rush to the side of somebody who has clearly done something that violates the policies of this website by hand waving and obfuscating"? Because that won't be hard to do. So kindly cut the bullshit. Thanks. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:11, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
A. he also said And I don't care if that guy is Jewish ... I doubt a non-Jewish antisemite can be worse than him. B. It might be fairly quickly if it hadn't been a shade under 2 hours from when this notice was posted. A notice that was answered in 2 minutes with a I'm going to completely ignore the issue comment. And then another request that the material be removed was likewise fairly quicklyshrugged off as "meaningless". It only was fairly quickly removed when it was brought here, when a praise the heavens Saul has fallen off his ass moment appears to have struck, and either it was that the user self-reflected during the 15 minutes between the last time the user decided that it was meaningless to call smearing a living person offensive and come to the conclusion that it really is against out policies to use such language, or it was fear of being sanctioned and doing whatever they felt necessary to reduce that chance. Im gonna take a shot in the dark and say it was the latter. C. Im not. D. Go right ahead, though that would once again fall under obfuscating from the issue at hand, but I would be interested in seeing what you come up with. Because I, nor you, are under discussion here. And as much as you would like to deflect from what is, the fact remains that it is Averysoda's actions that are pertinent here. nableezy - 21:39, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
That was very long and I kinda lost interest somewhere in the middle. What's your point? That he should receive some kind of serious sanction because for two hours it said on a talk page that a living person was a bigot, and that Averysoda didn't respond well to someone who was a complete jerk to him? What do you want exactly? I think the fact you follow him around and revert him on pages you've never edited before is quite relevant to why you're here, btw. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:06, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Well maybe if you pay attention and make it past somewhere in the middle youll see I havent actually asked for sanctions. As far as following him around, when a user repeatedly makes poor edits and says dishonest things in their edit summaries which result in unambiguous violations of policy, I sometimes check where else that has happened and correct those issues. I think you should actually read WP:HOUND and see the part about fixing unambiguous errors or violations of Misplaced Pages policy, or correcting related problems on multiple articles. But again, my edits arent the subject of this report. Deflect all you like, but your pal is the one that has been editing poorly. nableezy - 16:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Averysoda seems to be engaged with various editors on a number of pages, he seems not interested in dialogue but to create various edits to suit a POV or nationalist agenda. Another report has been added on his page today, I fear this will only escalate as obviously Averysoda has been caught up in a very serious nationalist agenda. I see no alternative but to a 6 month topic ban in relations to History of Israel, conflicts in involving Israel including pre-modern state and all Arab-Israeli conflicts. --Rockybiggs (talk) 08:25, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This was a WP:BLP violation, but in my limited interaction with Averysoda, he seems to be amenable to reasonable argument. For instance, he reverted his edit here, after I explained policy to him, and also he understood my explanation of WP:PRESERVEhere. He seems to be a new user, so a bit of leeway is fine. Kingsindian♝♚08:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Kingsindian, I think this latest edit sums up what we are dealing with here. Averysoda actually broke a 1RR rule, but then relised his mistake reversed this, and wait until today to revert without breaking the rules. Surely if we were dealing with a constructive and friendly editor in the time awaiting to revert within the rules, he could have taken to the talk pages. This will only get worse. When I have more time I will go through his full history --Rockybiggs (talk) 11:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Kingsindian, I've now started to look at his history, I can say with full confidence Averysoda is fully aware edit-waring isn't allowed, there has been enough warnings on his page. He has also demonstrated he is not willing to engage with anyone in the talk pages, as I'm really struggling to find any talk page comments from this user. Clearly has set himself on a path of editing and edit warring until pages look how he wishes with very little engagement with other users.--Rockybiggs (talk) 13:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Far from pot kettle, this was clearly edit warring by yourself, I've engaged on the talk page and a consensus was reached by a majority. You have taken no interest in that talk page or any page you edit, I cannot find one talk page comment. This causes myself and others great concern, as your actions go against the community, and why I strongly back a topic ban and until you prove otherwise--Rockybiggs (talk) 08:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I noticed now that you are plunking, without reading the text, a blob or two from a dated book by a novelist who ventured into the intricate history of the PLO, on several pages, and whose book is so dated she only got it back into print by self-republishing it. This is becoming a behavioural issue. At South Lebanon conflict (1985–2000)here and here. This broke 1R. The same blob is introduced now at 1982 Lebanon War
That article has a well documented section which reads:
Between July 1981 and June 1982, as a result of the Habib ceasefire, the Lebanese-Israeli border "enjoyed a state of calm unprecedented since 1968." But the 'calm' was tense. US Secretary of State, Alexander Haig filed a report with US President Ronald Reagan on Saturday 30 January 1982 that revealed Secretary Haig's fear that Israel might, at the slightest provocation, start a war against Lebanon. The 'calm' lasted nine months. Then, on 21 April 1982, after a landmine killed an Israeli officer while he was visiting a South Lebanese Army gun emplacement in Taibe, Lebanon, the Israeli Air Force attacked the Palestinian-controlled coastal town of Damour, killing 23 people
The blobs you introduced from then read:
after constant attacks from the PLO on the civilian population of Galilee in northern Israel.(lead
From the ceasefire, established in July 1981, until the start of the war, the Israeli government reported 270 terrorist attacks by the PLO in Israel, the occupied territories, and the Jordanian and Lebanese border (in addition to 20 attacks on Israeli interests abroad).Becker, Jillian (1984). PLO: The Rise and Fall of the Palestine Liberation Organization. AuthorHouse. p. 257. ISBN978-1-4918-4435-9.
I.e. we have sources saying there was calm on the borders preceding the war. And you come up with a source with an outdated piece of official propaganda no one takes seriously any more, which says the exact opposite, a piece of hasbara at the time which was buried by later research, and edit-war to keep it in.
(a) Becker's work is so dated, and is only the Israeli official line which historiography doesn't accept, even in Israel, that the edition you cite is 'self-published'.
(b)You haven't even troubled to read the text. The figures you introduce stand in start contrast to the actual data given by the UN peacekeeping body observing Israeli and Palestinian behavior on both sides of the border. Articles are meant to have internal cogency and be neutral. You cannot plunk 'stuff' in that implies the documented remainder of the text is false. You are hyperactively dumping 'stuff' without considering the mess it causes, as here. Sheer POV-pushing in multiple articles, with very little talk page justification. Any attempt to revert you gets reverted.Nishidani (talk) 21:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Becker is a reliable journalist that was on the ground during the Lebanon conflict. In addition, I found two more reliable sources (from books) in just a few minutes, also reporting PLO attacks from Lebanon as a reason for the 1982 Israeli invasion. In any case, I don't understand why you refuse to discuss this on the talk page of the article instead of here.--Averysoda (talk) 22:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Don't be disruptive. Anyone critical of Israel's policies regarding Palestinians is ipso facto anti-Semite in a certain quarterbaked lowbrow variety of polemics that thrive on smear for want of arguments. Nishidani (talk) 19:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"reasons given (by Simon Wiesenthal Center --Igorp_lj (talk)) being that chapter titles in the book Goliath were used to "equate Israel with the Nazi regime" and that Blumenthal had quoted "approvingly characterizations of Israeli soldiers as 'Judeo-Nazis.'"
Outside persuasion and canvassing from /r/pcmasterrace
There appears to be a co-ordinated effort from the subreddit /r/pcmasterrace to add derogatory information to a variety of video game related articles, and erase historical context from one other. A search for "wikipedia" provides some idea of the problem One prominent example:
In this thread the creation of new console list articles is proposed, with the purpose of "showing the peasants how small their collections really are". These articles were subsequently created by User:Wikinium but later redirected by other users. Paid exclusivity was also targeted by /r/pcmasterrace. It was nominated for deletion in April. The result was redirect to console exclusivity. User Wikinium ignored the result and quietly restored the page after attention had been diverted. (diff) The recent addition of criticism to Xbox One by Wikinium (diff) also correlates to a boastful submission on /r/pcmasterrace the same day.
And today, the same editor is behaving in a disruptive manner on PC Master Race. In order to describe the development of the term, and how it was coined, a fleeting reference to Nazi ideology is made. This linguistic context is supported by reliable sources, such as PC Gamer's executive editor Tyler Wilde, who observes:
"It began as a joke from Ben “Yahtzee” Croshaw, who was mocking our elitist attitude with the internet’s favorite analogy: the Nazi analogy. That was seven years ago, but the phrase is still everywhere, said without any consideration (or perhaps understanding) of the historical context, without any consideration of the original context, and without any of the original self-mockery. I obviously realize that no one is actually saying that PC gamers are the preferred people of Hitler. That’s absurd, and it’s supposed to be absurd. It’s a joke. I’d be mortified if my friends and family thought I were part of something called the “PC Master Race.” They don’t get the context, and even if I explained it to them, a half-forgotten seven-year-old internet joke doesn’t expunge the historical meaning from the phrase, which refers to the Aryan race, which is a term still used by people with swastika tattoos."
I'm not sure which editor elaborated its etymology and popular usage, but our single sentence description appears reasonable. Wikinium nevertheless deleted the above citation, and others similar to it, without explanation (diff) It was restored by myself on the 26th (diff) but deleted by the same user, who described my restoration as "vandalism". (diff) It was reinserted again on the 27th, with a clear and helpful edit summary (diff) only to be deleted again by Wikinium without explanation. (diff) (diff) And once again today (diff) reverted as "troll edits" (diff).
Ever since discovering links from /r/PCMasterRace to Misplaced Pages in recent weeks, TPX has had a vendetta against the page and users related to these pages, and is attempting to include what I believe to be (partially) irrelevant material (the claims about Naziism, Master Race, and Holocaust are not entirely sourced within the article written by Tyler Wilde - he only briefly mentions "Nazi pastiches"). I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time I reverted the section back to its original state. The fact of the matter is, the term was not created for and has never been used in a racial context. I stand by my suggestion that most of this be placed in a Misconceptions section, because that's exactly what it is. Wikinium (talk) 20:52, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
When did you make your proposal? I agree that adding Fanboy in the 'See also' subsection was not suitable. However the inclusion of Fandom does seem appropriate to describe the intense level of enthusiasm among some PC gamers. Can you point to another example of my vendetta, Wikinium? — TPX21:02, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
I actually made it just earlier today. I think it's a good idea to make a Misconceptions section. The information you want to include can be included (I was never against that), but it can be placed in a more appropriate section, rather than at the very front of the section that's meant to document the usage of the term "PC Master Race". Placing it in the absolute front of the section meant for "PC Master Race" kind of makes it look like the term has a racial or ethnic context. I don't want to dig for more edits (I referenced them in the talk page). It was edits like that that made me think you were there to vandalize it rather than actually help improve the clarity of the article. Wikinium (talk) 21:28, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
Are you are referring to the talk page proposal you submitted literally as I was filing my complaint? (diff) If the answer is Yes, it does not support your contention (above) that "I proposed putting the section he wrote about Naziism and the Holocaust in a "Misconceptions" section, but he has forcefully put it back in the same section every time", as the editing dispute occurred at a time earlier than your proposition. Please clarify this point. — TPX21:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You're telling me... I think 90% of the red links added to these lists are people just trying to catalog their own game rather than contribute a good item to the list. Wikinium (talk) 01:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
I apologize if my comments are not the proper manner for the notice board, but I wanted to 'bump' this section as it were, as the page in question has now been full protected as a result of the offsite canvasing and edit warring. @Ged UK:, not sure if you were aware of this section when protecting, just FYI. -- ferret (talk) 12:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I haven't created a list page in a very long time. I created those hoping that people capable of adding things to the list, but a lot of them ended up being redundant due to pages like List of video game exclusives (eighth generation). Some ended up not being duplicates, and others did. You won't have to worry about me creating any more of the sort. Now that I've seen them all and worked on the majority of them, I believe every platform-related game list now exists on Misplaced Pages in some form or another. Wikinium (talk) 15:27, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
What does this have to do with the PC Master Race article? Nothing. If this is an issue, it should be addressed in a seperate discussion. Omegastar (talk) 22:21, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Only a cautionary note, though I'm not aware of any specific organized attempt to affect this, but some of these edits like the PC Master Race article has also been discussed on Gamergate-related boards. --MASEM (t) 15:31, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the troll harassment and canvasing board "GamerGhazi" picked it up recently, which means the kind of troll edits that got us the frankly embarrassingly biased GamerGate Controversy article will be spilling over to this one. KiTA (talk) 19:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You predicted correctly. A request for deletion was started around the same time that GamerGhazi picked it up. Wikinium (talk) 18:12, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Pudeo
User:Pudeo
The user is currently engaged in repeated vandalism-Blanking(potentially) by inserting his potential biased opinion into his reason for doings so; I don't particularly blame him however. We are currently debating Misplaced Pages's rules/position regarding WP:BLP vs Verifiability of a source article establishing a living person's applicability to a wiki when a news source agrees with a label; we are both uncertain whom is correct on this discussion/situation. All concerned would appreciate an experienced editor or administrative perspective.
We are both adhering to WP:BRD in our perspectives in the .
Hi. In my opinion the right venue is Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard, as we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand John Key a hair fetishist. Based on the source, it says " has been labelled a hair fetishist", but not by whom. Was it a single Twitter user or so? The BLP implications on a vague source are more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist. --Pudeo'03:48, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
While your opinion is nice and all, it is not fact or a source. "we're labeling the incumbent Prime Minister of New Zealand John Key a hair fetishist." This is an incorrect statement, 3_News is labeling John Key as such on behalf of their undisclosed sources in a published article and we are referencing their article. The user does not appear to distinguish the difference in his own opinion. As such, the "repeated" implications of his actions and argument would jeopardise the integrity of all credible news sources based on Verifiability on Wiki. "more serious than what can be gained by listing a prime minister as a hair fetishist" what is considered more/gained/serious, is not for you to be judge, jury and executioner of, it is what can be referenced correctly. Thus your action's appear to be a biased attempt at blanking and in need of administrative clarification. Or potentially my own, not my place to judge. NZ4Life (talk) 04:37, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Pudeo has done nothing wrong. The content is probably not appropriate content for that article - see WP:COATRACK. It is not vandalism to remove inappropriate content - see WP:NOT VANDALISM. The appropriate place (if any) for that content is John Key, where I see it already occupies about one and a half lines - about all it actually warrants. Daveosaurus (talk) 06:15, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
This would appear to also involve London bus route 295, created June 25, which appears to restore the pre-redirected London Buses route 295 article under the new, slightly different title, while retaining the bold "London Buses route 295" in the article's lead. Both articles, along with a great many others, were deemed non-notable and redirected to the List of bus routes in London article, yet the same eventually blocked user (Ibsiadkgneoeb, Asbeto4, SeatF22, Delboy18) kept bringing them back. I'm guessing that the slight variation in article names from the standard is designed to prevent the articles from showing up in Watchlists. I have redirected both to the List of bus routes in London article. I expect to submit a sockpuppet investigation shortly (WP:DUCK if nothing else). BlueMoonset (talk) 16:30, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Indef blocked (for socking) now by Dennis Brown. Am still wondering whether this should also go to WP:LTA yet(?)... This can probably be closed in the meantime now. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Request for deletion
Serious uncited accusations should be removed, also at pt WP (content still in last revision and on talk page, also here still in article. Private blog snapshot, which gives some clues on conflicts. However the content here is not referenced and per BLP. prokaryotes (talk) 22:40, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
This looks like a BLP vio to quick review. An acusation of murder is indeed serious and a BLP violation if not cited; I am about to leave work and don't do complex edits while mobile. Another editor should review with an eye towards BLP deletion of the claim, but look at all the details. Georgewilliamherbert (talk) 03:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I've gone ahead with revision deletion and have sent an email requesting oversight. If anyone who speaks the other languages cares to notify the other wikis (es.wiki and pt.wiki) that would be helpful. -- Diannaa (talk) 03:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I have looked through the Portuguese version of the article and there are no mentions of murder accusations? Unless the comments are about something else? @Diannaa: Is it possible you tell me what was in the edits you deleted? Callmemirela (Talk) ♑15:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I blocked User:Captain JT Verity MBA indefinitely per WP:NOTHERE on June 26, for being a new single-purpose account on the topic of race, whose main focus since June 16 has been revert-warring on article leads that concern race. For example Race (human classification) and Race (biology). He came to my attention by making five reverts in 24 hours on one of these articles, constantly changing the lead to insist that race is a biological reality. On 18 June, two days after beginning his race campaign, he opened an ANI thread which can be seen at WP:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive889#User:danielkueh playing games on Talk:Race (human classification). Some participants in that thread warned him about WP:BOOMERANG. Accounts that are this aggressive and have catchy names are often socks, in my experience, so I opted not to work up through a graduated sequence of block lengths. As far as I know all his changes get reverted by others. He posted a request for unblock on June 27, stating
I hope my block is going to be reviewed. Clearly I have been dogpiled by a PC clique who refuse to address anything outside their fallacious echo chamber. Captain JT Verity MBA (talk) 07:20, 27 June 2015 (UTC)
It would be appreciated if another admin would review the unblock request and decide on it one way or the other. I haven't proposed any unblock conditions myself because I can't actually see any way they could make useful contributions here, but another admin might think differently. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 01:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
They're doing the same thing and inserting an older photos of living people across a variety of articles, for example here and here and here, without any explanation, and re-inserting them if removed. A look at the talk page shows that this is not a new issue and they've received multiple requests to stop this sort of behavior and they've also had instances with disruptive editing and other image policy issues. Through it all, and despite their high edit count they've made virtually no significant effort to communicate with other members of the community, save for their recent, blatantly uncivil remarks. They've gotten away with this sort of disruption for too long and have made no effort to improve their behavior so based on that I am blocking for a week. I agree that they're skirting NOTHERE as well. Swarm06:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Please could an admin take a look at the Dog meat article - it seems to have attracted the attention of a disruptive editor. Thanks in advance.DrChrissy 11:49, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Switzerland was originally included in wikipedia "dog meat" before Yulin festival was a hot topic on the news but someone removed it maybe because the western people were shame that the list had European country in dog eating list! Switzerland has 3% people who eat dogs and cats meat, don't believe me, google it! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lilin19892706 (talk • contribs) 11:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not an admin, but I'm trying to help the user understand the reliable source issue with the Daily Mail here. I get where they're coming from, but I think it's a case of user not understanding our policies, rather than a deliberate bad faith attempt to disrupt. Valenciano (talk) 12:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You might be right - let's see if they respond to our messages on the Talk page.DrChrissy 12:07, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I've advised them on their talk page of WP:BRD, WP:3RR and to stop edit warring and to use the talk page to discuss, if they ignore that, then a short block may be in order to stop further edit warring and disruption. Given what they've said on their own talk page, there may be linguistic competence issues there. Valenciano (talk) 12:40, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I've bolstered up the previous warnings with some links and the information that they will get blocked if they continue. It needs to be taken to the article talk page though, not his talk page. Dennis Brown - 2¢14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
The editor I'm talking with clearly fails to remain civil. He threatens to report me and calls me a fascist, and debating with him is a joke. He treats the Handbook of the IPA as an unreliable source without a word of explanation. Peter238 (talk) 13:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Now your behavior will be also in the spot. Please, can someone stop him on the article . He has changed the article. I have said to him that his changes are false, but he ignored that, also he ignored the fact that he does not speak, nor Croatian, nor Bosnian, nor Serbian and still he thinks that he is a bigger authority then someone who speaks this languages. He has fabricated evidence and presented a book that does not support his argument, as if so that this book does support his argument. It is really frustrating to be forced to explain to a person, who does not speak BHS, who to speak BHS. If I have really made bad remarks I am really sorry for that. Also in a instance I was joking. I remember that I have asked him nicely to show some good faith and revert the edits he made until we resolve this. But he ignored that, he did not show any good faith. He introduced changes to the article. I have reverted the because they are false, and then he started a edit war. I really don't know how to deal with him, because he ignores everything I say. And I stand behind my words, if someone who does not speak my language tries to force me to pronounce a word incorrectly, is a form of fascism. I am not saying that he is a fascist and everybody can see that but maybe not on purpose he is doing exactly that. Also fabricating sources and ignoring the Misplaced Pages rules. Tnx --Tuvixer (talk) 13:44, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC):::I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I have provided sources in which you can hear people pronouncing "Josip Broz Tito" not "Josip Bros Tito", I can also find videos on the Youtube, where people from ex-Yugoslavia say "Josip Broz Tito". This is really crazy. --Tuvixer (talk) 13:47, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I did not call him a fascist. I said that what he is doing is a form of fascism. Everyone can see that. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:03, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
What's "pasaran" mean?... Anyway, it's worth nothing that Tuvixer has mentioned around ANI before (here and here), and seems to have been brought up at WP:ANEW on a number of occasions (leading to a couple of blocks for edit warring)... I dunno if the most recent WP:NPA is bad enough for a block, but editor Tuvixer seems to have established an unfortunate pattern on Misplaced Pages. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 13:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You are still under the illusion that being a native speaker means being an authority on the nuances of pronunciation. It does not. About fabricating the evidence (which I've never done!), I've already answered you here. Also, you've failed to say which Misplaced Pages rules I am breaking.
And I've already explained to you why Forvo is not a reliable source (and indeed, the Serbian (Lutalac's) pronunciation on Forvo partially supports my transcription, which I've already said as well.) Youtube is also not a reliable source. Please read Misplaced Pages:Identifying Reliable Sources.
"Too bad, mate. I was faster." alludes to the fact that before my report, you threatened to report me two times. No idea how is that uncivil, maybe somewhat cheeky. Peter238 (talk) 13:57, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I am really sorry if I have offended someone, it was really not my intention at all. I maybe have a "professional dysfunction" because I was raised and live in a town where they teach us to be tolerant, but that we can't be tolerant to those who are intolerant. That is maybe why something I write sounds bad. He has accuses me that I threatened him. I never did that. I did not break the 3RR. Look what he is doing, he is introducing false information to the article. And I have repeatedly even begged him to show some good faith, and he did not. What should have I done. Report him immediately? --Tuvixer (talk) 13:59, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It was not a threat, I said that you will leave me no other option. How is that a treat? Did I report you? And I have repeatedly said that I will have to, but I did not. You are the whole time mean and you did, not even once, shown some good faith. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:01, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I also probably know why you have reported me. You are loosing the argument and now this is the only thing that you can do, block me so that you can put false information in the article. --Tuvixer (talk) 14:05, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You are the one who says that the Handbook of the IPA (International Phonetic Association) is not a reliable source. I wouldn't say that's "intolerant", but that it is ignorant to the extreme. Especially given the fact that you've never explained why it is unreliable. You told me you'll report me (twice), and I was faster. That's semantics, no big deal. Neither of us have broken the 3RR.
And here we go with the lies. It's convenient to ignore Landau et al., isn't it?
That book, or atl least that page does not prove that "J. Broz Tito" is pronounced "J. Bros Tito". That is a personal name, and it is no on me to prove something, it is on you to prove that what you are saying is correct. But I think it is over now. :) --Tuvixer (talk) 14:16, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Both of you, please don't rehash the content dispute here. That is what the article talk page is for. This is to discuss conduct. Neither of you have behaved perfectly but from a non-admin POV, Peter provided a source, Tuvixer didn't like the source and so edit warred over it. Peter responded with an edit war. Tuvixer resorted to insults. As mentioned above Tuvixer seems to have some history of this sort of thing and so probably requires sanction. Peter probably only needs instruction on how to appropriately deal with edit wars. SPACKlick (talk) 16:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I don't see how I have started a edit war? :/ He has changed the article, I have reverted it because the edit was incorrect, and then he did not go to the talk page to discuss the matter but started to edit war. He has changed the article, I did not. Also I did not violate the 3RR, and if I have really insulted him, I am really really sorry. This matter is now resolved and there is no more conflict in the article. I was really thinking that he was trying to introduce the pronunciation "Bros" because it sounds funny like Warner Bros or Mario Bros. Look at the history of that article and you will find a lot of vandalism. Again I am really sorry. But I think you can understand, it was really frustrating to listen to someone, who does not speak my language, trying to explain to me (a native speaker) how my language is spoken. --Tuvixer (talk) 10:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Actually, Bros has final /z/ in English :P Anyway, sorry for the edit warring. I reverted my changes after finally hearing a convincing argument (see the talk page). I don't think he needs a block, the issue was not that serious. Peter238 (talk) 10:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Inappropriate NAC
First, note that the reason for having admin close contentious discussions is primarily due to accountability, not skill. Per general practice, non-admin should avoid closing any XFD discussion where there is likely to be controversy or contention on the merits. for this reason. In this instance, the only contention is that the close is a non-admin. This complaint isn't supported in policy sans a showing of potential contention. As for reverting the close, policy is pretty clear that the person that opens a discussion should never revert the close, be it at ANI or XFD, and should instead appeal it. While PBP89's close may fall on the cusp for potential contention in a NAC, the lack of any meaningful contention about the merits since the close tells us that it is within policy and should stand. Dennis Brown - 2¢16:53, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Purplebackpack89 (talk·contribs) has, in my opinion, inappropriately closed a CFD discussion that I had started. I re-opened (in the hope an admin would come by and make a decision) and left a note at PBP89's talk page confirming the same. Instead of leaving it, PBP89 has instead re-closed the same discussion. Please can an uninvolved admin review a) the CFD and b) PBP89's conduct? Their reason for closing as they have done, as well as the fact that they have removed deletion tags from affected categories even with the knowledge that their close was questioned, are both extremely concerning. GiantSnowman18:29, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I would suggest that you should read WP:CLOSECHALLENGE as you proceed GiantSnowman. IMO it is unlikely that an admin will respond to this until you have followed the procedures listed there. Of course, I could be wrong, so, as I said, this is just a suggestion. MarnetteD|Talk18:41, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Also have a look at WP:NAC and especially at WP:NACD, specifically articipants, including participating administrators, should not reopen non-admin closures. If you disagree with the close then what you want is WP:DRV. (Non-administrator comment) Ivanvector (talk) 18:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC) (Adding after edit conflict) You can't just reopen non-admin-closed discussions, per consensus at this RfC. Ivanvector (talk) 18:50, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Statement by closer: It's clear that there couldn't be any outcome other than keep. The votes fell 7-2 in favor of keeping the categories. It is unlikely that anybody, admin or not, would have closed the discussion as anything but keep. There was both a consensus that it was appropriate to categorize Italians by region, and concerns that the CfD may have been too broad in scope. It was also inappropriate for GiantSnowman, as nominator, to reopen the discussion in the manner that he did; particularly since the close doesn't satisfy any of the five rationales of WP:CLOSECHALLENGE. And there's some leeway for GiantSnowman to renominate underpopulated categories in my revised closing rationale here, which I would note is different than the closing rationale I used last week when I originally closed. pbp18:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I'm not challenging the fact it was a 'keep' outcome; I'm challenging the fact that it was an inappropriate NAC (which, by the way, you didn't even note as such). Not quite as bad as non-admins closing TFDs as 'delete', but still not ideal. GiantSnowman18:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
(edit conflict) Unless I'm missing something, there's no special prohibitions on NAC closers who close as "keep". The only issue with NAC closers is in those cases where the consensus is "delete". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 19:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
So you think pbp shouldn't have closed, but you don't dispute the result, correct? Or to put it another way, if an admin had closed, we wouldn't be here? And if that's the case, can you let this go? Or are you here to insist that pbp be punished? If so, I will be happy to WP:TROUT them, with their consent, and then let's move on. Ivanvector (talk) 19:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
FWIW if I were to re-close the discussion it would be the same outcome, there is a clear consensus to keep the categories. Sam Walton (talk) 07:48, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Onel5969 repeated removal of WikiProject talk page banner
After the reported user first deleted the WikiProject Organized Labour banner, I sought feedback from my fellow project members at our project talk page, at which time I discovered that the reported user had nominated the article for exclusion from the project. Please see Misplaced Pages talk:WikiProject Organized Labour#Americans for Prosperity. Significantly, the reported user made no mention of his anti-nomination at article talk. Please see Talk:Americans for Prosperity#Article Wikiprojects and rating.3F. I nominated the article for inclusion in the project, briefly summarizing the evidence for inclusion. A fellow project member concurred for inclusion, as did a third editor. Subsequent to an explanation of WP:PROJSCOPE from another editor at article talk, and subsequent to a consensus for inclusion at project talk, in which both threads the reported user participated, the reported user reverted the project add five more times. Reported user's article talk page comments and edit summaries seem to indicate familiarity with WP:PROJSCOPE; possible WP:IDHT. Respectfully request administrator clarification of WP:PROJSCOPE to reported user. Thank you for your attention to this issue. Hugh (talk) 18:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
"This issue has just been resolved" No, this issue was referred here from WP:EWN by the closing administrator Darkwind, who explained that repeated removal of a WikiProject banner from an article talk page was beyond the core scope of WP:EWN, of article space edit warring, please see the closing comment. Respectfully request assistance with a WP:IDHT issue with guideline WP:PROJSCOPE. Respectfully request administrator clarification of WP:PROJSCOPE to reported user. "A WikiProject's participants define the scope of their project (the articles that they volunteer to track and support), which includes defining an article as being outside the scope of the project. Similarly, if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then do not edit-war to remove the banner." Thank you in advance for your time in addressing this issue. Hugh (talk) 20:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You really don't get it, do you HughD? That's not what the closing admin said. The issue regarding the revert was closed on that page, as per the closing comment by Darkwind at the top of the discussion. Period. Darkwind's comment to which you allude, was at the end of the discussion, and was referring to your ludicrous request, here's the quote, "The admonishment/warning you seek is beyond the scope of this noticeboard". But again, not shocked to see you misrepresenting stuff once again. And continuing to fail to acknowledge consensus. Onel596920:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
If you honestly believe that Misplaced Pages guidelines are not being followed, and the disruption is severe enough to warrant administrative action, open a thread at WP:ANI. is pretty clear. --Izno (talk) 21:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
WP:WikiProject Council/Guide clearly lays out that a WikiProject ("WP") can choose to include (or disinclude) a page in its scope. A consensus-gathering action is presently ongoing at WT:WP OL regarding this subject, so from that point ANI is clearly the wrong discussion forum.
On the point of whether the guideline was not followed, so much so as to warrant administrator action against Onel, I would disagree, and personally find the edit restriction as provided for at AN3 to be sufficient for now. Suggest closing this discussion. --Izno (talk) 21:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Checking myself, it appears to me as if the discussion at WT:WP OL has stalled as of June 18, and some of the reverts above are from later in June. There seem to be editors on the talk page of the article who (perhaps?) still disagree with inclusion. I disagree with the aspersion of WP:CANVASS - the use of the WikiProject's talk page to discuss the article in question certainly un-cavass-like to me, even if the contesting editors were not invited to join in the discussion at WT:WP OL for the second go-around.
In conclusion, I would suggest someone get an RFC or similar together on one of the talk page to consider inclusion, ensuring they also notify all of the original editors who are interested in the (dis)inclusion of the topic under that WikiProject, as well as maybe also notifying the editors of the other listed WikiProjects. --Izno (talk) 21:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments and suggestions. The discussion at WT:WP OL did not so much stall out as end once two project members and a non-member concurred on inclusion, which simply seemed sufficient to us for satisfying the antecedent condition to "do not remove" in WP:PROJSCOPE. If WP:EWN is not the forum for repeated reversions of a project banner, and WP:ANI is not, what is? I recognize I have many, many RfCs in my future if Americans for Prosperity is to make it to good, so I am not adverse to that recommendation, but frankly I was hoping a project banner add might not be one of them. WP:PROJSCOPE reads to me as if the intention was that an RfC for a banner add should not be necessary. My humble read of WP:PROJSCOPE is that the clear request not to edit war was us all more or less agreeing with each other that project adds are way too silly to war over. I filed this hoping someone would simply say to the reported user "please stop," and we could all move on. I am not seeking a block or official wrist slap of any kind, just a little help educating an editor. Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 23:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
You misunderstood me somewhere in there. ANI is the appropriate place for discussion of the content dispute from a behavioral standpoint, and my opinion on that should already be clear per my second paragraph in my comment at 21:22. (You'll note I said nothing of your behavior…. )
As for the recommendation regarding an RFC, you did not include the editors who disagreed with you when you posed the re-raised question at WT:WP OL. This means I do not find it clear myself whether there is consensus for the project to include or not the project banner in question, and this is why you were slapped with an allegation of canvassing. --Izno (talk) 23:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply. Please help me understand how the edit restriction addresses the problem of this report? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 02:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"...you did not include the editors who disagreed with you when you posed the re-raised question at WT:WP OL." An RfC is our mechanism for assessing community-wide consensus on a issue. A thread on project talk is our mechanism for assessing project-wide consensus. WP:PROJSCOPE is rather strongly worded; a project's scope in terms of article inclusion is unusual in guidelines in that it is specifically exempted from community-wide consensus: "A WikiProject's participants define the scope of their project...if a WikiProject says that an article is within their scope, then do not edit-war to remove the banner. No editor may prohibit a group of editors from showing their interest in an article..." Reasonable persons may disagree with this, but there it is. In asking me to RfC a project banner add, are you asking me to right some perceived wrong? WP:PROJSCOPE does not require an RfC for inclusion of an article in a project. In fact, I read WP:PROJSCOPE as in effect us saying to each other, look, guys, adding an article to a project is way too trivial to edit war about, and it is way too trivial to RfC. What is your read? In asking me to RfC a project banner add, you are asking me to jump through a hoop beyond guideline. A key point in filing this report is that the reported user participated in a thread at project talk at which project members concurred on the project banner add, with no dissenting project members, and subsequently deleted the project banner five more times. The antecedent condition for "do not edit war" in guideline was met. Respectfully, please reconsider your recommendation. Respectfully, I came here seeking a very little help with a simple issue of an editor needing a straight-forward clarification of a guideline that is clearly intended to help prevent edit warring, and upon reflection I still think it is a reasonable request, and I ask again for help here. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 11:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Please help me understand how in your view an RfC is necessary for a project participant to add a project banner to an article talk page. Thank you. Hugh (talk) 15:14, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
For the record, I did advise HughD (tc) to post here about his request for someone to admonish Onel5969 (tc) about the WikiProject banner situation if he still felt it was necessary, because his request was out of scope for WP:ANEW where he originally posted -- not because I find merit in any of the allegations. I encourage everyone to avoid seeing this as forum shopping. Regarding the removal of the WikiProject banners, I have already determined that the removal was not edit warring per se a violation of WP:3RR, although it may be considered a very slow edit war due to the number of reverts. (corrected by —Darkwind (talk) 18:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)) I placed the 1RR restriction on the article and its talk page simply because the contentious behavior related to this article, and the ensuing allegations, are getting out of hand—not specifically (added by —Darkwind (talk) 18:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)) because this instance was edit warring. —Darkwind (talk) 22:15, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Thank you very much for commenting to confirm the referral and to refute the reported user's defense of charging the reporting user with forum shopping. Thank you very much for your efforts to restore a collaborative environment at Americans for Prosperity. I am committed to restoring a collaborative environment and I look forward to your continued engagement. I view making explicit the broader stakeholders in a good Americans for Prosperity article, beyond WikiProject Conservatism, as a small but important step toward improving the collaborative environment, and I ask all for support here in that. Hugh (talk) 12:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"Regarding the removal of the WikiProject banners, I have already determined that the removal was not edit warring per se." When you suggested WP:ANI, I thought fine, whatever, wrong forum, live & learn, I'll refile. Respectfully, upon reflection I find I do not understand how this is not edit warring. I understand it is not 3RR, but there was a 2RR in 6 hours on 18 June, and I understand there is such a thing as a slow edit war. Is it not an edit war because it is talk page editing? Thanks again. Hugh (talk) 12:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm not sure exactly why I phrased my comment above that way; in my ANEW closing I did not actually state my view on whether there was an edit war in this case. Reviewing it again, it could probably be called a slow edit war, but that would not have changed the action I took of applying a page restriction under discretionary sanctions. I'm also not sure why you're so eager to call it an edit war, HughD (tc); since you're the one who was putting the project banners back in, you'd be equally guilty of edit warring. —Darkwind (talk) 18:28, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Can someone nip this in the bud? User:TripWire insist on restoring Google Earth images to the article 2012 Siachen Glacier avalanche. It is my understanding, and I'm pretty sure I'm right, that Google Earth images are not free according to WP:IUP. For an image to be considered free it must be possible to remove the Google Earth logo, which GE policy specifically prohibits. If I'm wrong on this please correct me. If I'm right will someone lease tell User:TripWire that these images are not free since they're unlikely to listen to me (discussion is here); the user in general is argumentative, non-cooperative and not easy to discuss disagreements with.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I have asked for clarifications at Media copyright questions here, if they are not permitted, I have no problem with it.—TripWire20:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
THis is pretty much solved since the images have been deleted from Commons as a copyright violation. -- GBfan20:22, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Comment: I was reported it to Commons, thanks for deleting. TripWire is also involved in misusing orange Rollback , . User TrimWire is known for his nationalist views, and calling every other editor as sock , . --Human3015 knock knock • 20:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
First, this discussion was opened for the copyright images and not on my personality on how you perceive it. I have called a declared sock as sock as proved here. Whereas, Human3015 having reported me for being a sock and being unable to prove his allegation is now probably unable to bear the investigations by the admins and hence is resorting to WP:NPA. As for the use of rollback, I havent used it after it was clarified by the Media Copyrights Questions board here that I was wrong. This user is unnecessarily getting personal with me especially since his accusations of labeling me a sock did not work and were disapproved by the SPI admins.—TripWire21:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Those do appear to be improper uses of rollback TripWire, is there a particular reason you thought those were vandalism, or did you not understand what Rollbacker status mean, or something else? And yes, if you call someone a sock without being willing to back it up with an SPI filing, that is considered unWP:CIVIL, and can draw a sanction. Can you explain? Dennis Brown - 2¢21:28, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Explanation As can be seen here the IP is indeed a sock. Also the SPI investigation has proved this here. I did not call ANYONE a sock EXCEPT the IP whose edits were being reverted AFTER he was proven a sock. Human3015 knows this very well but he is deliberately trying to twist the facts, primarily because his bad-faith effort, which he did at the behest of a declared sock diff to prove me as a sock back-fired and he is unable to face the truth. I will request the admins that this user is asking penalties for me just because i called a sock as a sock, but why didnt the admins not block or penalized Human3015 for actually putting me up for an SPI which did not prove anything? I am sure there are no double standards here at wikipedia, and hence I will request the admins to look into this matter, please.—TripWire21:46, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
As for the misuse of rollback, first, the rollbacks referred to as 275 and 276 were done on edits by two blocked IPs as can bee seen here and here. This sock was using multiple IPs from multiple cafes as can be seen in the
Even if the IP was a sock, the thing is that User:TripWire is using this as an excuse to make highly POV edits of their own to various pages related to India-Pakistan relations (which is all they edit, with a very blatant and skewed POV). As in "some sock made some edits to this page therefore I get to revert them and anyone else on this article and write it up to suit my POV". But yeah, that may be a topic of discussion for a different time.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:52, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Dear Sir, you began with copyrightvio, went to accusing me of things I did not do and ended up talking about socks edits which were otherwise required to be edited, what exactly do you want? What you have said about me can exactly be said about you as you were the one who have been reading the sock edits over and again despite the discussion at the talk page, thus pushing a skewed POV. You have been explained by other editors too that the edits y the sock were wrong and did not fit the scope of the page and were thus reverted. You were even offered to open up a RfC which you did not. The disucssion is still open at the talk page with no consensus at all, then how can you reinsert the same info over and again? It's a simple question, sir.—TripWire22:04, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Stop it, everyone, this isn't a pissing match. I asked him to explain he did. Now I will say that you are responsible for knowing how to use a tool before you get it, not after, so using revert outside of it's intended purpose will result in the bit being removed. As to what should or shouldn't be removed, take it to the talk page of the article, admin don't deal with content. Dennis Brown - 2¢22:14, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
It's pretty common to "not get" exactly where and when rollback should and shouldn't be used. I even had an arbitrator use it incorrectly a few months ago, who plead ignorance. I'm sure User:TripWire will look carefully at the guideline at WP:ROLLBACK and ensure he doesn't misuse the feature again. All the best: RichFarmbrough, 00:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC).
(Non-administrator comment) Well Rollback is problematic enough that I've never had any desire to ask for it. Heck, I recall there was an Admin that was asking how to disable Rollback on their end! (I think I'd be tempted to do the same thing!) Besides, it's not particularly difficult to "manually" rollback (and you're less likely to make mistakes that way too...). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This is a request to topic-ban User:Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice and arguing with editors who say not to offer medical advice.
Support - At first I thought this was a bit much, but after reading the thread and watching Count Iblis actually make a holocaust comparison (thus violating Godwin's Law) it seems we kind of have to do this to protect Misplaced Pages's interests. Dennis Brown - 2¢21:34, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Support - based on skimming the thread and in particular Count Iblis' responses, it's clear that there is no argument that the comment was medical advice, which would be kind of bad, but that Iblis insists they should be allowed to give medical advice notwithstanding the guideline, which is clearly wrong. They should therefore absolutely be topic-banned. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 21:36, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Support. Count Iblis has caused enormous problems in the last few years on the Ref Desk. I have lost count how many times we have been here discussing his behavior. Despite all these discussions he still causes problems. We never ever had any other Ref Desk contributor causing any sort of problems during the entire existence of Misplaced Pages. If you search the archives of the Ref Desk talk page, you see virtually no discussions about editors' conduct exept when the topic is Count Iblis' disgraceful behavior. In fact, if you skim past all the threads there, you are left with just a few threads in total since the start of Misplaced Pages! Count Iblis has given medical advice to people a countless number of times, the WMF has been sued and found liable by a Court in Florida and ordered to pay hundreds of millions in damage. Jimbo Wales had to raise extra funds due to this. So, in short we're better of kicking Count Iblis out of here,. With him gone the Ref Desks can finally return to the good old peaceful times. Good bye Count Iblis, we hope to never see you again here! Count Iblis (talk) 21:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Clarify, please, as to whether this means banning Iblis from the ref desks altogether, or merely banning him from anything that is in any way medically-related. ←Baseball Bugscarrots→ 21:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Yup: He either agrees to comply by the rules, or he doesn't post at all - I see no reason to provide an opening for yet more Wikilawyering over what exactly is or isn't 'medical'. There has been enough time wasted over this already. AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:17, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Support topic-bannning Count Iblis from the Reference Desk for offering medical advice against consensus. I do not support any lesser restrictions that still allow Count Iblis to edit at the Reference Desk; that would simply simply allow him to explore new and innovative ways of being disruptive. --Guy Macon (talk) 22:18, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
I intended my earlier comment as support for a complete topic-ban from the Reference Desk as well, and I'm now wondering if Iblis' trolling here points to a stronger sanction required. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:30, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Sure, ban him form Misplaced Pages indefinitely, remove all of his contributions because who knows what kind of dangerous medical advice is hidden in there. Count Iblis (talk) 22:37, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Indeed, because if it were just this incident (that he has agreed to stop engaging in), it would be a different mater. But we've been discussing him for many years now and this is the final straw. Medical issues arise regularly and Count Iblis is always the first to respond on those threads, edit waring to keep his content in, and that's just unacceptable. Count Iblis (talk) 22:24, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Support - (of course, given my role in the linked threads). Will add more when I get home later if the thread is still open Actually it doesn't seem like there's much more that needs to be said. Iblis kind of summarized the problem, irrespective of any of the particulars, with So, it should be clear that I will continue to answer any questions anywhere in the way I see fit, regardless of any restrictions. — Rhododendrites \\ 23:48, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Support topic ban and expect a hefty block if this continues anywhere on Misplaced Pages. We are not doctors and cannot take that responsibility on. The advice was reckless. Chillum01:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment - My original proposal was for a complete topic-ban from the Reference Desk, to prevent his providing comments that he would wikilawyer as not medical advice, to prevent him from giving legal advice, etc. (I had requested at the Reference Desk talk page that the thread be closed with a warning, but when he persisted in arguing his own right, I didn't see compromise as possible.) Robert McClenon (talk) 01:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Support - Under no circumstances should anyone be giving medical advice on here, If CI can give reckless advice like that then christ knows what he'll say if god forbid someone perhaps asks about suicide (I never visit the Ref Desk so I have no idea what people ask!), It seems the best idea here is to ban him entirely from the Desk. –Davey201002:02, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Support the mental gymnastics that have been performed in order to accomplish the level of ultimatiums and back and forth wikilawyering only indicates that CI needs to be restricted until such time that they can demonstrate (or the community decides to give him a opportunity) that they will not be disruptive on the Reference desks any further. Hasteur (talk) 01:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support, and given the continued lengthy disruption, misdirection, and game-playing on this interminable thread, support further, more stringent sanctions if the disruptive behavior merely moves to another venue. Softlavender (talk) 05:53, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support the topic ban from the Reference Desk. It took a long time to read and ponder this whole thread, but after doing so, I do not want to see any more medical advice, or bizarre self justifications, or rationalizations, or weird logical contortions from this editor. I consider the editor's assurances worthless, and expect formal sanctions to prevent the disruptive behavior documented here. CullenLet's discuss it06:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support ban based on Robert McClenon's argument and the possibility of him evading scrutiny using an IP. —Soap—11:14, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment I have already moved to another venue, much more prominent than the Ref Desk here. You all have been misled by Robert McClenon into thinking that this was some sort of a big disruption of the Ref Desk, when in fact it was just a minor incident compared to the almost weekly infighting there which unlike this case does involve hugely disruptive reverts on the main ref desk pages. I did not edit war, and while my comments on the talk page might have been polemic, that was in the context of the older dispute where many have taken the very unreasonable position that you can't even tell an OP to go to the doctor because the issue may be more serious they think it is. Robert McClenon painted a false picture of me wanting to push dangerous medical advice, what happened is that people there are engaging in a faux outrage to get me banned because they much more prefer fighting their own battles.
Much more prominent sites like StackExchange that unlike our Ref Desk don't have the almost daily infightings, the content of which does turn up on Google searches, also have a Medical Disclaimer except that they won't hyperventilate over irrelevant issue. If there were any truth about what Robert McClenon and others are saying about this being dangerous medical advice, then such far more prominent sites where people like Peter Shor, Terrence Tao contribute, would pretty much all have adopted the same rules. The reason the rules on the Ref Desk are what they are in this case has little to do with preventing dangerous medical advice, it is just that it keeps the peace there. So, by making a subject taboo you can get from a big fight every day to once every few days.
I have pointed out the problem of the lack of prominence of the Ref Desk during the last few years, made the link to the very frequent fights, pointed that StackExchange could serve as a better model to make the Ref Desk more prominent. My position made me very impopular among the regulars at the Ref Desk. That's why notorious edit warriors from there typically don't end up here for their huge disruptions, and when they do get here, they still get support against the proposed sanctions. For me, things are different, not because I have created much disruption there (any disruption from my part is infinitesimal by the usual Ref Desk standards), rather because I don't belong to any of the gangs there.
It is this behavior of the regulars at the Ref Desk that has caused it to go down the drain. That also motivated me to stand my ground a bit more on this particular issue as a last ditch attempt to get people finally thinking there. Unfortunately that did not happen, they decided to get me railroaded over a non-issue here (non issue because when my contribution was hatted and removed, I did not edit war about that and the comment wasn't a big deal in the first place).
If that were indeed true, but is it? Is there scientific research that has considered the best way non professionals should interact with people on medical issues to prevent problems? Is the Ref Desk following guidelines based on such research that have strong scientific consensus these other sides are so unethical in rejecting? Count Iblis (talk) 16:57, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I have been asking myself the same questions. Count Iblis is reporting themselves for everything. They even supported the topic ban. Probably playing a game or I am to naive to know what's going on. Callmemirela (Talk) ♑22:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Count Iblis, you are bordering on WP:DE, which you already know, and know the consequences of. If you have something constructive to say, or something to change someone's mind, by all means, say it. If you only want to disrupt, you will be blocked. Dennis Brown - 2¢22:42, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
This is an editor who muses on their talk page about ignoring policies and ArbCom rulings, encouraging other users to do the same, and celebrating logged-out editing by blocked users. I suspect this is someone who has no intention to respect whatever sanction comes out of this discussion, and question whether this is someone interested in building an encyclopedia at all, or just having a laugh at our expense. Ivanvector 🍁 (talk) 22:54, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
(ec) Count Iblis is being sarcastic above, but he's actually hit the nail squarely on the head: we have been discussing him for many years now, and when a problem with him in one area is cleared up he simply moves to another. For his entire Misplaced Pages career his Mainspace (article+talk) edits are only 3852 (36.8%) while his Misplaced Pages space (Misplaced Pages+talk) edits are 5,225 (51.7%). For a non-admin, that's not indicative of someone here to improve the encyclopedia. BMK (talk) 23:43, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Not sure if you have counted Ref Desk contributions here, and also you can't just consider all mainpage contributions as equal. My contributions have been significant edits to math and science articles, most of which are still there. You just can't compare someone who edits sections like this once per year or so to someone who does very frequent copy editing work here. These are two totally different disciplines. Also, it's quite natural that the former type of editor would also be interested in hanging out at other math and science venues on the internet, or here at the Ref Desk. Oh, and all these discussions about me, what was that all about actually? Count Iblis (talk) 01:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Please don't be disingenuous - you were there, you are aware of the sanctions you received, you know what they were about. Your playing coy and innocent isn't going to help you here. BMK (talk) 02:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I never ever received a justified sanction here. My experience here is that we have a mob justice system here where people tend to gang up on each other. That's just a fact and I won't stay shy of saying that just because you issue threats against me. Count Iblis (talk) 03:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Just to repeat, so it will not be missed, Count Iblis says that of the sanctions imposed on him by ArbCom, at AE, and elsewhere on Misplaced Pages: I never ever received a justified sanction here. Count Iblis never did anything wrong, ever, and did not deserve any of the 4 blocks imposed on him by four different admins. BMK (talk) 06:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
That's indeed my position, 3 of the 4 blocks were outright unjust. The first was imposed by an Admin who had the habit of frivolously blocking users, he was later sanctioned because of that and has long since left Misplaced Pages. The next incident was about Brews Ohare, who had problems editing some physics articles. It was blown out of proportions and the total physics ban led to more problems than it solved. When a few editors argued in favor of him, they were all restricted from doing so, despite the fact that only one or two of the four ever went over the top doing so. If you disagree with that assessment, go find some diffs that point to unacceptable postings by me at AE, suggesting alternative restrictions for Brews. Never ever did a clerk there refactor, or remove my comments, despite having zero tolerance for problematic comments there. Nevertheless, I stuck to the restriction of not being allowed to post at AE on behalf of Brews for a while. The next block was related to that, but reversed as the restriction had expired (see summary by blocking admin). The block after that was due to some comments on my userpage, that are still standing today. That block was reversed by Sandstein out of all Admins, so that tells you that I didn't do anything wrong. The latest block was about a misunderstanding about euthanasia, I mentioned that somewhere in the Ref Desk in the meaning it has in countries were it is legal, but some detractors misinterpreted by comments in the meaning of unlawful killing or murder. In that reading, I agree that my comments would be unacceptable. But they then hatted the comments with a reference suggesting that their interpretation was what I meant. Of course, making me say things I would never say, made me angry and I reverted a few times too much to my version. That led to the last block, and I don't think it was something worthy of a block if you just sit down and talk it over. Count Iblis (talk) 19:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The vast number of Ref Desk contributions are missing from there, and these are exactly the point of contention. We do need to dig those up to see his allegedly disruptive actions. Count Iblis (talk) 23:38, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
Despite however much medical experience he/you may have, it would still be best for the ref desk inquirer to see a doctor or pharmacologist in the flesh. There might be things he/you is not aware of about the user in question that would cause him to not prescribe certain medications. How many of the users have informed him/you about their weight, which I've heard can affect some things? Unless he is willing to call up the respondent's doctor and ask about what medications the person is taking, family history of disease, as well as inform the physician about what he recommends, so they know if it can conflict with something else, I'm going to say I question his behaviour a little. Discuss-Dubious (t/c) 02:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Where did I say that the OP should not consult with his doctor? Anything I wrote on the Ref Desk is always in the context of the OP seeking medical attention in case of a medical problem. Usually questions where that would be an issue are removed or hatted. But sometimes you have borderline cases, if the question remains open then whatever we write is always in the context of any medical intervention being done by a health care professional. If there is any question about that, then someone will spell that out for the OP. Never ever have I disputed that in a Ref Desk posting. Count Iblis (talk) 03:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
While I like to see people working on the actual encyclopaedia, it is clear that the community as a whole, appreciates other tasks need to be done (as do I). Moreover the community supports Reference Desk, otherwise everyone would be MfD'ing that instead. Therefore we can't (much as we might like) make WP:NOTHERE arguments because users who spend most, or even all their time away from article-space.
Given that he is now talking about himself in the third person, perhaps Count Iblis might like to give himself a large trout, and take a suitable wikibreak? All the best: RichFarmbrough, 23:58, 30 June 2015 (UTC).
The whole point here is not disruptive editing of the actual pages, it's just that in the talk page I re-opened the old debate on medical advice. This has been discussed previously, and you have people who claim consensus for some restrictive policy, but it's not clear that anything else than clear cut medical advice (saying e.g. to someone to take 50 mg of X twice daily is obviously clear cut medical advice) is actually medical advice. If you e.g. say that you can treat cancer using chemotherapy, then would that be medical advice? I think not, but suppose that I write that on the science ref desk and someone makes problem about that. They are then free to remove or hat the particular question and my answer, I won't revert that (unlike quite a few other Ref Desk posters, I don't have a history of edit warring there). The dispute seems to center around my refusal to bow to the people on the talk page who insist that I was wrong to have written that and that I dared to re-open the debate on medical advice based on the example.
As far as I can see there is nothing more to the dispute than a single, by Ref Desk standards normal, debate on the talk page where I refused to acknowledge that the opposing view is correct. That's just ridiculous, you may have a consensus where 95% agrees and 5% disagrees, so the edit will be removed, but the 5% are never forced to change their view, they are never forced to swear allegiance to the majority party. They must, however, accept that they can't have it their way when in an actual edit made, their edits won't stick. Now, I always stick to 1RR or even 0RR, so there isn't much of a problem in this respect.
Now, you could still say that I'm intent to give medical advice here, but that's flat out wrong. I will never do anything on the ref desk that amounts to encouraging someone to self-doctor, or do something else outside of the usual medical channels. It's simply about where exactly you draw the line between clear cut unacceptable medical advice and writing that e.g. chemotherapy is commonly used to treat cancer. The line must be drawn somewhere and the usual way that's done is by hatting or removing the question so you don't get answers or the answers already given are then also hatted or removed. I've no problems with that, even if in any such case I believe I was still correct to give an answer.
Now, my slightly more liberal than average POV about where to draw the line is consistent with the policy of many other prominent websites such as stackexchange, where I also contribute. While one can argue that what StackExchange does is of no concern to us, you have to consider here that StackExchange is a prominent site with many promiment professors as its contributors. They maintain proper standards that work in practice, they have good rules against medical advice that are pretty much similar to our rules when you read what it actually says. In contrast, our Ref Desk is not prominent at all, it is plagued with a lot of infighting and I got caught up in one such fight on the talk page. Our rules for medical advice,while similar are often used as sticks to fight (edit) wars with and usually I'm not involved in those disputes. These disputes don't typically come to AN/I because the other regulars are more involved there and they have some mutual understandings of each other red lines. Basically it's how in a Wolf Pack you have alpha males and females that will settle their disputes they tend to pick on other wolves with lesser prominent status in the group.
Now, I made the decision that I'm not going to bow to any irrational rule here on Misplaced Pages, where we have a rule that says that you don't have to do that. So, I will just continue to make edits to e.g. the Math Ref Desk because by any stretch of the imagination I can't see how making an edit like like this here could be a problem. I don't see it, but if I get banned for doing that, then so be it, because that then implies that this place isn't worth contributing to. Count Iblis (talk) 02:47, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
An example to make my general point in the general dispute about medical advice clear
Suppose someone asks on the Ref Desk that he is constantly feeling hungry and asks for advice on diets that contain more calories but are still healthy. If that were to happen then any responses aimed at attending the OP that there are actually potential medical dimension to this that he might not be aware of that may need to be checked out (e.g. diabetes or thyroid problems) is not allowed. So, those responses would be removed or the question would be hatted. Now, I never edit warred in such cases and I never will. My point is simply that the current rules are not perfect, that they can prevent a person from going to the doctor when they should (because if you are only feeling hungry, you may not be aware that this may actually be potentially more serious medically than it seems). So, the rules do merit discussion on the talk page. Now, apart from the last few days' I'm not someone who frequently starts discussions on the talk page there. It's not that I have been at this constantly over and over again in a disruptive way.
So, if I now get topic banned simply for having this position, not the position that the people who disagree with me ascribe to me (Count Iblis wants to play doctor at the Ref Desk) then that would be unjust. Even if what they say were true, wanting to play the doctor isn't the same as actually playing the doctor. Count Iblis (talk) 04:51, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The issue is your behavior -- the things you have done -- as opposed to what you might do in a certain situation. "See your doctor" is allowed. suggesting a specific drug is not. --Guy Macon (talk) 11:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I did not suggest a specific drug, merely pointing out that certain classes of drugs, that can only be prescribed by a doctor can work. Now if that's then still considered to be medical advice and the question hatted, then so be it. Did I revert that hatting to keep my comments in? No, that did not happen. What did happen were lengthy arguments (before the hatting) about why doctors should not prescribe the drug, which is also medical advice. Because if someone is prescribed that drug for this reason, then you are now giving the advice to stop taking them. It is simply incomprehensible how the same person who objects to my comments on the grounds of "medical advice" can write in the same thread why doctors should not prescribe that drug. It's this sort of inconsistent behavior that motivated me to discuss things on the talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 17:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Warning given
Based on our existing disruption guidelines, my discretion as an admin, and what I think is the clear intent of the community I have given Count Iblis an only warning about this behaviour: User_talk:Count_Iblis#Only_warning_regarding_medical_advice. This is not intended to effect the discussion of the topic ban from the ref desk but rather to make clear that even if there is a topic ban that this sort of thing is not acceptable anywhere on Misplaced Pages. This was prompted by Count Iblis' continued insistence that their comments were not medical advice. As always I welcome community review of my decision. Chillum15:39, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Good call. Whenever possible, established users should be given a final warning and the chance to stop doing what they are doing I know I would not be happy if I was blocked with no warning. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:04, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
At the Reference Desk talk page, Count Iblis referred more than once to the Soviet Union and at least once to Nazi Germany. The point of those references was probably to say that the rule against medical comments was a violation of freedom of speech. Freedom of speech in the United States, and Misplaced Pages's servers are located in the United States, is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. That is true but irrelevant. The First Amendment to the United States Constitution doesn't give an editor the right to free speech on Misplaced Pages. It only gives the Wikimedia Foundation the right to free speech on Misplaced Pages. Various principles of US constitutional law including the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution define the right of property in the United States, and an editor doesn't own the servers. The WMF does, and the WMF has the right to make its own rules about its own servers. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You may not have a legal right to free speech on Misplaced Pages, but free speech is a really good idea for any society, real or virtual. I don't support free speech because of legal documents, but because I consider it an unalienable basic human right, and, despite occasional inconveniences cause, overall a large boon to us. A free knowledge project like Misplaced Pages should embrace it to the largest degree possible without disrupting its core purpose. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 16:50, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The community has already put its opinion about free speech into policy: WP:NOTFREESPEECH. The talk page of WP:NOT would be the place to challenge that consensus. There is also a nice essay here: Misplaced Pages:Free_speech. Basically free speech means you can say what you want on your own website, not somebody else's website. Chillum16:54, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
When you are working in an "official capacity", at the reference desk, where a new user might think you are a person of authority, then there is a vested interest in Misplaced Pages insuring you don't say anything that could harm someone. Allowing medical advice at the reference desk is akin to yelling "fire!" in a crowded theater. Both have the potential to injure or cause death, no matter how much you cry "free speech!". Even the seemingly innocent advice to "take an aspirin" can cause death for asthmatics or anyone allergic to NSAIDs. Plus, we are not doctors, so we shouldn't practice medicine without a license, which is what it resembles when done from a quasi-official station like the reference desk. Unquestionably, it is against policy. Dennis Brown - 2¢17:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
But that's the complete opposite of the problem. It's never ever been about self medication. It's always been about cases where the OP should or could go to the doctor, when giving some additional information why the OP should take that serious is branded as medical advice. Count Iblis (talk) 17:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
What you don't seem to understand is that if we have to choose between 1. Providing too much info or 2. Providing too little info, we choose 2 when it comes to public safety and WMF liability. If you erred on the side of caution, or even acknowledged that we should err on the side of caution, this discussion would have had a very different tone. You screwed up, but that isn't the bad part. The bad part is that you can't acknowledge the mistake and pledge to be more careful. This is why I can't trust you in the future, and likely why others can't either. Dennis Brown - 2¢18:00, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
But my comments were removed and I never contested that by reverting. I don't understand how disagreeing with a position but not acting on it (i.e. restoring the comments) can be a problem . As I explain below, I'm totally against suggesting the OP to self-medicate, totally. The brouhaha on the talk page about the mention of drugs by me (which never happened before) was in the context of the old discussions where you can't mention anything at all, so e.g. pain in your arm when exercising can be a reason to seek medical advice because that pain may be due to heart problems. You can't mention that (as a consequence the OP may not seek medical advice as "it's just arm pain"), that's what the current rules are (it is considered to be a diagnosis and we're not allowed to do that) and that's always has been my long term disagreement with the others on the ref desk. And almost never does this actually lead to an editing dispute involving me, and never ever a suggestion of self-medication a suggestion, or that the OP doesn't need to seek medical advice. Never ever has that happened. My dispute centers precisely around the problem that cases where the OP ends up not seeking medical advice is far more likely to happen under the present system. Count Iblis (talk) 18:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
No, the free speech issue, comparing things to the Soviet Union did not happen in that context. What I meant is that a discussion about the real issues is always derailed using the "rules = rules", "we say so therefore it is so" etc. arguments. This is similar to the Soviet Union where any argument in favor of capitalism would be shot down for all sorts of reasons, but it would never be evaluated on its merits. The same is true in this case.
Fundamentally, my core argument now and a few years back on the Ref Desk was always that in borderline cases the OP should always be pointed to the fact that we're not doctors, that only medical professionals can give medical advice. The way the rules are implemented are that we're not allowed to write anything about potential medical issues. But as I've pointed out in the infrequent discussions over the last few years, that can cause problems. E.g. if someone asks a question about pain in his arm when exercising, then we are not allowed to point to the fact that while this issue seems quite innocent, it may actually point top heart problems therefore the OP should reconsider his approach (not going to the doctor instead asking us for advice).
Then what also makes the argument about the Soviet Union apply here is that despite everyone on the Ref Desk knowing the details about my position, they come here and make propaganda about me wanting to give dangerous medical advice. They misrepresent my position, they pretend as if I'm in favor of telling people how to self medicate, when in fact I'm the one who is usually far more inclined to present arguments why it would be wise for the OP to go to the doctor. The problem is then that this does involve discussing some things with the OP, raising some options, but never ever in the context of self-medication. Count Iblis (talk) 18:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Telling a user, there could be deeper problems and he needs to see a doctor, is one thing. Recommending a particular drug is another. It's unethical and potentially dangerous. ←Baseball Bugscarrots→ 18:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah this defence is bizzare. I'm actually fairly sympathetic to the view it may sometimes be helpful to suggest seeing a doctor as a matter of urgency when an OP thinks their problem is a minor thing that isn't urgent but there's reason to think it could be, without being too alarmist or attempting to diagnose the OPs problem. And I'm fairly sure I'm not the only one. But I have no idea how you go from that, to suddenly suggesting random treatments particularly treatments with serious possible side effects, even more so when such a treatment wasn't even what was being sought. As for the holocaust, Soviet Union and communist China, issue, well those were just stupid examples to bring up a guaranteed way to ensure people would think you had no good argument. Nil Einne (talk) 18:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
SSRIs are not OTC drugs, they can only be prescribed by medical professionals. In this case, the deeper problem could well be related to problems with the seratonin system which can cause all sorts of other symptoms for which doctors (so, not us, not Count Iblis, but only doctors) can prescribe such drugs. The only realistic effect of mentioning a serious drug like that which can only be prescribed by doctors, is not that somehow the OP would start to use those drugs without being prescribed such drugs. That defies logic, because how on earth could the OP self-medicate on drugs that are only available on prescription? The only realistic effect is that the OP would read a few of our wiki articles and perhaps go to a doctor if the OP thinks that's useful.
Given that the latter has been opposed tooth and nail in general (not in the context of mentioning any drug), for me this was simply a re-opening the old discussion on the talk page. Count Iblis (talk) 18:55, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"Not OTC drugs, they can only be prescribed by medical professionals" is not an exception to our policy. First, many people have access to prescription drugs. They can buy them on the Internet, get them from a family member who has a prescription, etc. Second, absolute claims like "they can only be prescribed by medical professionals" don't hold water on Misplaced Pages. We have readers who live in places like Somalia where there are essentially no authorities willing to enforce drug laws. As Baseball Bugs correctly pointed out above, recommending a particular drug is unethical and potentially dangerous.
Your continued refusal to accept the decision of the community on this means that you need to be topic-banned from the help desks, with the standard offer of being allowed back when you convince an administrator that you understand what you did wrong and are unlikely to do it again. --Guy Macon (talk) 19:20, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Since it is a community ban, no admin may override it. He will need to go to WP:AN to get it removed, at the appropriate time. Dennis Brown - 2¢19:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
First, I already explained that it is extremely unlikely to happen every again, I'm not sure why you make the assumption that it is likely to happen. Me disagreeing with a policy doesn't mean that I edit against consensus. Your argument about the OP using someone else's prescription drugs is where the comparison to the CCCP came from. There you could not discuss capitalism because of "See all those poor homeless people freezing to death in Chicago" sort of arguments. Count Iblis (talk) 19:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Me disagreeing with a policy doesn't mean that I edit against consensus. -- directly contradicts your stated perspectives/attitudes/plans. e.g. saying you'll say whatever you want regardless of restrictions. — Rhododendrites \\ 23:13, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The way I edit an article or the Ref Desk has almost always been consistent with the consensus view of the other editors, or else I would have been kicked out of Misplaced Pages a long time ago. But that doesn't mean that I have to agree with the consensus view. What I've now promised to do is to take the views of others on the medical advice issue into account a priori. It's exactly similar to how you could have disagreed with the ban on gay marriage but still stay within the law and not proceed with unlawful ceremonies for gay weddings. Count Iblis (talk) 01:30, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Again one doesn't automatically follow the other. All that can be said if someone hasn't been community banned, is that no one has made a succesful proposal for such a ban. This could be because the community won't agree to such a ban because their behaviour is according consensus. It could be because there is insufficient consensus about their behaviour. It could also be because the editor has snuck under the radar. It could also be because people have noticed, but no one has cared enough to start a successful thread (which requires diffs, explainations etc). It could be because their behaviour is borderline against consensus but they've gotten lucky and/or have enough supporters. In fact, many of these are related. And often, but not always, people are less likely to bother if there has already been one or more unsuccessful attempts, even if those attempts likely failed due to the person starting them not spending enough time finding the evidence. Nil Einne (talk) 02:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The CCCP thing doesn't follow your argument. Saying people shouldn't offer random treatment advice, because their defence against the advice is that that the OP will have to see a doctor to follow that advice, when in reality it's quite common people will not see a doctor; is quite different from the CCCP refusing to discuss the benefits of capitalism because of people freezing to death in Chicago. For starters, that's not even closely the reason they don't discuss capitalism. Secondly, people die in China for many reasons too, and you can't discuss the relative merits of the different systems (and modern day China is actually quite capitalist anyway) without discussing the merits of the different systems. You can offer help to the OP, without giving completely random treatment advice based on extremely scant evidence. As I said below, even saying the OP has a seretonin imbalance and needs to see a doctor is frankly far better even if not acceptable than offering random treatment advice. And discussing the merits of the different systems isn't going to suddenly mean China changes overnight to the wrong system. In fact, if the discussion is held properly, it would ideally lead to a good decision being made which is mostly under the control of the people holding the discussion (who we presume are the ones who will make the decision). Meanwhile, there is a resonable risk that random treatment advice could easily lead to the OP going on medicine which could do them harm, and Count Iblis has absolutely no control over that, particularly given that they gave almost no explaination for their suggestion (and the only initial explainaion was in fact a simplistic suggestion that they would work well, despite there being so little evidence that even any doctor who said the same thing is the sort of doctor who shouldn't be working without supervision, if working at all). Nil Einne (talk) 02:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, the fact that prescription drugs can and are obtained without a prescription has been mentioned before. It also seems blindingly obvious. And giving random drug treatment advice like that, without any explaination is exceptionally stupid. If the OP had genuine problems, there are far better ways to approach it then offering random advice to take SSRIs. Frankly even the OP diagnosed the OP as having a possible serotonin imbalance and suggested they see a doctor, that would be far, far better (even if still not acceptabled) than offering such random treatment advice. Frankly, if Count Iblis still doesn't understand any of this, it's even more reason they shouldn't touch anything remotely related to prescriptions with a 10 foot barge pole. Nil Einne (talk) 02:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
If the consensus is that it should not be done, then fine, I won't do it. But arguments assuming an irresponsible OP doing dangerous things and then arguing how that can have a bad outcome are problematic arguments as I explain in detail in the section below. So, while I do understand your argument, all I'm saying is that it belongs to the same class as e.g. the "let's do the abstinence only sex education program because you don't want teenagers to know too much" arguments. The only valid arguments are arguments that are backed up by the results of rigorous scientific studies. If you can find studies were people were exposed to various forms of medical advice and they support the conclusion that mentioning efficacy of drugs leads to inappropriate self medication in some significant fraction of the cases, then that would be a valid argument. Better still would be review articles that go into details of how best to deal with this problem based on such research results. Count Iblis (talk) 02:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
But it's not the same. No one is saying the OP shouldn't learn about SSRIs. (It's true if someone comes to the RD and says they want to know whether they should take SSRIs/Cialis/whatever, many people would oppose even a link to the SSRI/Cialis/whatever article and MEDRS about these drugs. But that's a more subtle argument which isn't under discussion here. And also, even in those case, no one is saying they shouldn't learn about SSRIs/Cialis/whatever, but rather given their question, they should learn about it from a competent medical professional.) However they didn't ask about SSRIs, and there's no real reason to think SSRIs are at significantly relevant to their question. Further you didn't actually offer any info about SSRIs just said they would work well with no explaination. Sex education is often intended to be as complete as possible. While it's desirable if people would talk to someone about questions, it's recognised that many will not. For some things, such as birth control pills, they will hopeful receive medical advice before using these, although given the various risks involved, many discussions will give some medical information. For others th8ings, like condoms they may receive no further advice. And even with fairly liberal systems, it's unlikely if a girl says "a boy is cute" anyone is going to say, birth control pills will work well. Depending on the age and other factors, it's possible there will be a discussion about contraception and other things, but not such a simple suggestion with zero explaination as you offered. In fact, your evidence was really less than a girl saying a boy is cute. Nil Einne (talk) 02:55, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I did give the wikilink, the OP could and did seem to have read the article based on his later comments. I agree that there would have been better ways to proceed, but then the more you talk about medical issues the more you stray away from the borderline to forbidden territory. As I explained here earlier, there is a good case to be made for giving more details in certain cases, but that then does fall foul of the policy in a rather unambiguous way (Kainaw's rule etc.). But if you keep things vague then that has traditionally always been acceptable. So, by just saying X could work for Y as a general statement, instead of divulging into why and how in the OP's case, I thought that the OP would both be helped to some degree without that falling foul of the policy. Count Iblis (talk) 03:09, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Count Iblis will stick to the Ref Desk consensus
Now that two regulars have changed their position on the main issue that was discussed years earlier (for me the particular issue discussed here is just the prolongation of the old argument), I'm ready to write down here that I will stick to the views of the other regulars regarding medical advice, specifically not mentioning medicines in replies to questions on the Ref Desk. Count Iblis (talk) 19:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand how this follows from any of the above. It contradicts everything you've said over the past few days -- and said with great conviction. Which issue are you talking about and why would it have the effect of completely changing your mind about many of the above statements? Are you saying you were being disruptive to make a point about some past disagreement about some aspect of the "no medical advice" rule? — Rhododendrites \\ 23:18, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I haven't changed my mind on anything except one one thing, i.e. that I'm not going to edit the Ref Desk in any way that amounts to stepping on the toes of the other regulars there. I don't accept the argument that mentioning a class of drugs is a problem. However, I'm going to edit the Ref Desk according to how the others feel about that (and other) issues.
Having read the arguments presented here and elsewhere, I still don't agree with the argument against mentioning treatments in general. One obvious weakness here is the assumption of the irresponsible OP. So, to argue why the OP could end up in a bad situation (e.g. using someone else's medicines instead of going to the doctor who may or may not give him prescription), you need to assume that the OP is someone who is inclined to do bad things right from the start. Now, we've all heard those arguments before. E.g. conservatives have argued for a long time that sexual education for teenagers can only discuss abstinence. Telling them how to have safe sex is taboo, because that may lead to bad outcomes. In their argument it is crucial to consider the irresponsible teenagers and then frame the entire policy based on that. But, of course, what is missing is a rigorous scientific evaluation of the pros and cons of such an approach. The same is true for people who argue against the legalization of pot. They present some evidence that it may be bad for teenagers if they smoke pot very frequently. But that doesn't address the question if it is better to legalize it or to keep it illegal. Good arguments should be based on peer reviewed scientific results, it's no good to come up with scary arguments that make all sorts of hidden assumptions that play well for the public. Count Iblis (talk) 01:07, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
People often look elsewhere besides a doctor, for fear of what they might find out. OP's who ask for medical advice are trying to get around going. It is not our place to encourage that mindset. ←Baseball Bugscarrots→ 01:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
But why are you assuming it has to be a "bad thing"? If someone is in a country with a poorly regulated medical system and where a competent doctor in the matter of SSRIs is likely to be expensive and difficult for them to afford, it's quite rude to say it's a "bad thing" for them to take SSRIs without seeking competent medical advice if they're sure they will be of benefit. It may be a dumb thing, if the only evidence they have is someone randomly saying they would work well with no explaination but people have different levels of competence and trust. Nil Einne (talk) 03:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
These people tend to be far more susceptible to local opinion. That's why it is so hard to stamp out the trade in rhino horns. Local alternative medicine practitioners in China keep on telling lies about the powders made from rhino horns, and the locals just keep on buying it. Count Iblis (talk) 03:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Given the behavior we have seen here and the following comments supporting a topic ban...
"After reading the thread ... it seems we kind of have to do this to protect Misplaced Pages's interests."
"Iblis insists they should be allowed to give medical advice notwithstanding the guideline, which is clearly wrong. They should therefore absolutely be topic-banned."
"Count Iblis is bound by the same rules as the rest of us, whether he acknowledges it or not"
"Iblis kind of summarized the problem, irrespective of any of the particulars, with "So, it should be clear that I will continue to answer any questions anywhere in the way I see fit, regardless of any restrictions."
"Doesn't get it."
"Support per nom's evidence and CI's own deliberate disruption within this thread."
"The mental gymnastics that have been performed in order to accomplish the level of ultimatiums and back and forth wikilawyering only indicates that CI needs to be restricted until such time that they can demonstrate (or the community decides to give him a opportunity) that they will not be disruptive on the Reference desks any further."
"Given the continued lengthy disruption, misdirection, and game-playing on this interminable thread, support further, more stringent sanctions if the disruptive behavior merely moves to another venue."
"It took a long time to read and ponder this whole thread, but after doing so, I do not want to see any more medical advice, or bizarre self justifications, or rationalizations, or weird logical contortions from this editor. I consider the editor's assurances worthless, and expect formal sanctions to prevent the disruptive behavior documented here."
Accept Count Iblis's assurance ("I'm going to edit the Ref Desk according to how the others feel about that (and other) issues.") and take no action other than issuing a warning.
Support. Example support !vote
Community imposed topic-ban of Count Iblis from the Reference Desks, warning to not repeat behavior elsewhere. Misplaced Pages:Standard offer applies.
Support. Example support !vote
Support - After several days of insisting on his own rightness, his change of mind in stating that he will follow community consensus is not persuasive. Assume good faith is not a suicide pact. If he had been willing to follow the Ref Desk consensus, he could have done so at the Ref Desk talk page instead of filibustering and forcing the issue to come here. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Community imposed block of Count Iblis from Misplaced Pages. Misplaced Pages:Standard offer applies, with the understanding that an unblock may be a full unblock or a conversion to the topic ban above.
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
On the 11th June I added some questions to the User Talk page for Contribsx. On the 14th June this was removed. I then added it back in again, saying in the edit summary that it was a unique case.
This seemed fine for over two weeks, with no further edits to this page taking place, until the 29th June when Vordrak removed the post. He explained himself on my User Talk page. I gave a detailed response to this which originally I added to his Talk page. Rather than engaging in debate, he removed it within 4 minutes. (I then added it to my Talk page.)
I therefore felt I had no choice but to simply add the post back to the Talk page for Contribsx. This was reverted by William M. Connolley, who merely said in the edit summary "per others". This was a lie as there weren't "others" plural, there was only RegentsPark who had actually left an edit summary. Additionally, RegentsPark has at no point got in touch after I reverted their removal. So this was a wholly inadequate explanation by William M. Connolley. So I reverted the removal again.
Finally, Joel B. Lewis removed the post. He merely said in the edit summary that it was "obviously inappropriate". As I saw nothing inappropriate about it, I then reverted the removal once more. I wrote in the edit summary that if it was obviously inappropriate then why hadn't he reverted it at any point between the 14th and 29th June? And why not debate this? He has since reverted the addition again.
(Redacted)
To summarise, not one of the three editors who has removed my comment from the Talk page for Contribsx has been willing to discuss it. I wrote a lengthy reply for Vordrak who just ignored it. William M. Connolley has not so far been willing to discuss it. And JBL has not been willing to discuss it. Additionally, there is the issue of why William M. Connolley and JBL have only felt the need to do something about this after Vordrak - a Conservative blogger - got involved. Again, the page was left unedited between the 14th June and the 29th June.
We have a situation where it appears that three editors are engaging in tag team reverting, while not being willing to discuss the issue. I therefore have no choice but to ask an uninvolved administrator to become involved. Kookiethebird (talk) 02:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
It appears that Kookiethebird believes the definition of "tag team" is "more than one editor who disagrees with me." An alternative view is that Kookiethebird is editing disruptively against consensus. Short Brigade Harvester Boris (talk) 02:32, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
- Working together to circumvent the three revert rule
- WP:NINJA editing – terse comments, little talk page justification"
It appears that you are another editor who refuses to discuss the issue at hand, while at the same time trying to make out that other people are at fault. Kookiethebird (talk) 02:40, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
"In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever."
"If you find the rule sensible, you will understand why the other editor suggested it should be followed. If you do not see the sense in it, however, you should explain why you disagree with it."
Also, "Editors should attempt to follow guidelines, though they are best treated with common sense, and occasional exceptions may apply." WP:PGKookiethebird (talk) 03:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
You are trying to ask a fellow editor to out their true identity. Not cool. It's no wonder you've been reverted by an Admin and several others. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 03:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
I have RevDel'ed the edits as they are outing attempts. Kookiethebird, if you do that again, I will block you for an indef period of time, no talk page, and you can use WP:BASC for an appeal. If you post that same information elsewhere, the same result. As this information is subject to an Arbitration action, there is no debate to be had. You are free to appeal to them at arbcom-l@lists.wikimedia.org if you disagree with my action here. Dennis Brown - 2¢08:45, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you Dennis Brown. For thoroughness could you please Del the edits made to my talk page by Kookiethebird on this topic and also RevDel the conversation on Kookiethebird's talk page due to obvious BLP breaches? Vordrak (talk) 09:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Your page is why I called in Oversight. I don't have those tools, and this is their specialty. They should respond shortly. Dennis Brown - 2¢09:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
@Dennis Brown: Thanks. I removed all Kookiethebird's comments from my page, they just need oversighting. Can you delete them in the meantime? The whole conversation is still live on Kookiethebird's talk page, including his lengthy defence which violates the policies we previously discussed. Can you delete those? Vordrak (talk) 10:36, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
OS has responded and is taking the steps they feel are necessary. That is a decision for them to make, not me. Assuming he doesn't OUT anyone again, I think we are done. If he does, just ping my talk page and I will take care of it from there. Dennis Brown - 2¢13:30, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Since May, Scientus has been pushing the POV that the word "antisemitism" discriminates against Arabs and any other non-Jewish Semites. In its place, Scientus has been promoting the obscure term "Judeophobia" despite an overwhelming consensus against it (see both articles' Talk pages, including recent archives, especially the failed Requested move initiated by Scientus at Talk:Islam and antisemitism).
Last week, Scientus deleted the assertion that Israel has universal suffrage. When the assertion was restored, Scientus rightly started a Talk page discussion on the subject. When every editor in the discussion disagreed with Scientus, the editor started changing the article against consensus and edit-warring to preserve her/his changes. Israel is subject to a 1RR restriction, which Scientus has (barely) respected, making reversions 24 hours apart.
On June 20, Scientus rewrote the lead of Libya. The changes made by Scientus were reverted by three editors (one of whom was me), each of whom asked Scientus to use the Talk page to discuss the changes. No discussion at Talk:Libya. On June 28, Scientus started making the same changes to the lead and, not surprisingly, was reverted. Scientus started a Talk page discussion. On June 30, after nobody had replied on the Talk page in 29 hours, Scientus restored her/his favored version of the lead. When that change was reverted (by an IP editor), Scientus went ahead and deleted part of the lead, saying "please find a source for this i couldnt find one".
I brought this complaint here, as opposed to WP:ANEW, because this is a broader issue than violating 1RR or 3RR. Scientus evidently has a hard time listening to others and that is becoming a growing problem. I would appreciate other editors' thoughts on the matter. Thank you. — Malik Shabazz /Stalk05:49, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment: Given the number of warnings by reputable users on the user's talk page since June 19 (some of which have been deleted by the user), I'm surprised he hasn't been blocked already. I can however understand that Malik Shabazz has refrained from doing so, as an involved admin. It seems at present the user is here to push an agenda and edit war rather than to build an encyclopedia or edit collaboratively and learn and abide by Misplaced Pages policies. It seems clear to me that he has had enough cumulative warnings and that the next step is probably a block, the only question being how long. Softlavender (talk) 06:06, 1 July 2015 (UTC); edited 06:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Comment: As per my experience Scientus is nice editor and he can be useful for Misplaced Pages, but he should learn policies of Misplaced Pages, I have already given my advice to him on his talk page. And Softlavender please don't use word "reputable users" here, Misplaced Pages is not about reputation and senior-junior like in colleges. Sometimes even IPs can act more sensible than admins. Read article WP:IPs are human too for more detail. We have to go by wikipedia policies and if Scientus is breaking the rules then we should advice him instead of playing game of senior-junior or reputation. Today's IP can be tomorrows admin if he opens account. Or every admin was once a un-confirmed user. --Human3015 knock knock • 18:01, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Is there a source for that removed sentence of Libya? If not, I do not see what the problem is. That sentence was my real issue, but I was changing other things at the same time, which apparently irritated people.
There was no debate on the basic facts regarding "universal suffrage" for Israel. If the admin Milik Shabazz insists getting me banned because there are no facts backing up his dislike of removing or clarifying the term "universal suffrage" when he clearly knows better then Misplaced Pages is not a website I want to contribute to. My current suggestion would be to clarify to "universal suffrage except for citizens of the West Bank, Gaza, and other Arab countries.",or "universal suffrage within the non-disputed territories" (which isn't strictly true as is discussed at Citizenship and Entry into Israel Law), or simply removing "universal suffrage".To claim that a country where 1/3rd of the population (irrespective of age) is excluding from voting rights "universal suffrage" is preposterous.Scientus (talk) 18:19, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Scientus is not an IP, nor is he a new user, so I don't see the relevance of User:Human3015's comments. He's been editing since 2009, but seems to have become somewhat, shall we say idiosyncratic, recently. Though his primary interest is Jewish/Israeli-related content. He has also edit warred on other unrelated articles. For some reason he decided that there should be a picture by El Greco on the Angels in art article. Fine, but he chose to include a portrait of a Pope Cardinal Don Fernando Niño in which no angels are to be seen, on the basis that Robert Prisig said that it was in some metaphorical sense a portrayal of an angel. At least that had some rationale, but it was then replaced by a picture of Jesus, for no apparent reason other than the fact that Jesus has a halo . He edit warred, admittedly in a minor way, to keep this image. He seems to be fascinated by a fairly obscure spelling project called Unspell, and repeatedly tried to insert it into English alphabet against consensus. He has waged a war across several articles to replace the term "anti-Semitism" with "Judeophobia" because he thinks it is more accurate, despite a mass of evidence that the former is overwhelmingly the most common term per WP:NAME. The main problem with this editor is that he acts as though his pet likes and dislikes should override all relevant policies and guidelines. Paul B (talk) 18:43, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, of course we need another halo at "Halo (religious iconography", just in case readers haven't already twigged what they look like from the 32 other illustrations of halos that article already had. Paul B (talk) 19:29, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
This is exactly what's wrong with Scientus. He seems to like El Greco. Well, great. So do I. But we don't want to smear an article on halos that already has over thirty illustrations, with a bunch of El Grecos that don't depict halos. He's added El Greco's portrait of Cardinal Don Fernando Niño again. Cardinal Don has no halo. He's added another El Greco of the holy family, in which they have no visible halos (the light is coming from the glow of a cloth around Jesus - not a halo). See the additions at Halo_(religious_iconography)#Philosophy_of_Halos. This is madness. We also have some utter drivel added from Robert Prisig, an author with no expertise in religious iconography whatever. Paul B (talk) 20:09, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
To be fair, I was acting as an editor, not an admin, as I have been heavily involved in Scientus' latest disputes. But yes, the attack was uncalled for and the reasoning behind some of his edits is very idiosyncratic. --NeilN23:08, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Pretty clear Scientus has gone off the rails at this point and the only question is what to do about it, since numerous cumulative warnings and even this ANI haven't gotten through to him. If no admin wants to take action quite yet without a community consensus, perhaps someone should start a proposal/poll below with a suggestion and then allow !voting. Softlavender (talk) 02:33, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
My recommendation is that an administrator craft a carefully worded topic ban that prevents this editor from participating in editing pertaining to anti-Semitism, halos, angels, El Greco, or any other darned topic where their input has been disruptive. I support such a topic ban. CullenLet's discuss it07:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
While it's clear that Scientus's edits in particular subject areas are problematic, it's not clear to me that this actually has anything to do with the subject areas, as opposed to a general competency/noncollaborativity issue. --JBL (talk) 16:21, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
One block for IP hopper and semi-protected the talk page for a week, something I don't normally do but seemed the best solution here. Dennis Brown - 2¢11:59, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
(EC) I presume you're referring to the talk page itself rather then the article? It looks to me like the IP's removal of the comments is plain wrong. The editor who left them isn't blocked. And both comments seem on topic and constructive. If the IP disagrees with any of the comments, they're welcome to leave a response. Since the IP is hopping and possibly with a wide range, blocking looks like it will be difficult (one IP was already blocked before they started hopping). So semiprotecting the talk page is the only remaining option (or I guess an edit filter, but I don't think those are used for things like this), or alternatively just hoping the IP gives up. And I just noticed it looks like the talk page has been semiprotected so I guess there's nothing more to do Nil Einne (talk) 12:03, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
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Recently, a lot of similar vandalism on similar pages has occurred. All vandalism came from IP's that all start with the number 173.209.211, a full list of IP's involved:
I initially started a sockpuppet investigation, although I now feel that may have not been the best route to take, as the issue seems too severe. All the IP's have vandalized at least one of the four following pages: Kreayshawn, Lil Debbie, V-Nasty, 21st Century Girl (Willow song). All of the vandalism is pretty concurrent in theme, usually changing the main image to something inappropriate (A fleshlight, an Ape (now deleted from public view at Whip My Hair), the confederate flag, the nazi flag, a rectum etc) One IP had not vandalized any of the aforementioned pages, but randomly vandalized two of my sandboxes (1,2) in the same way all previous IP's have to articles, and includes the similar IP to other reported IP's. I do believe all the IP's are the same person, basically confirmed by one IP's vandalism to 21st Century Girl (Willow song), who changed the picture to a fleshlight, the IP had never done it before, but the edit summary was "Im going to keep doing it" Not really sure how to handle the situation, so brought it here. Azealia911talk14:25, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
173.209.211.128/27 would hit them all but with 113 other potential users blocked.
173.209.211.132 173.209.211.143 173.209.211.144/28 (13 potential others) 173.209.211.192/29 (5 others) 173.209.211.211 173.209.21.216/29 (6 others) 173.209.211.224/28 (14 others) and finally 173.209.211.240 would block these ones. WP:RFPP might be a better option though as that'll lock ths IP's out of the articles in question. Amortias (T)(C) 14:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
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This is the continuation of a previous, now archived thread. The IP in question, 108.65.249.149, refuses to discuss his or her edits and continues with threats in the edit summaries to track editors down and kill them. Can something be done apart from revdeling the edit summaries? --Epipelagic (talk) 16:42, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Made it two weeks, then saw the one summary, changed to indef, although I can only block the permanent IP for 6 months. RevDel'ed the two summaries, let me know if I missed something, via a ping. Dennis Brown - 2¢17:11, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
If I read this correctly, I made Scolaire come to my talk page. And when he was there he told me not to comment on his talk page. This was triggered by me NOT commenting on his talk page.
2. At this point I cleaned my entire talk page of discussion, not just Scolaire's point.
3. I responded to his comment at his talk page only for him to blank it saying that he didn't want to discuss any further.
4. Then responds at my page. I responded to his comment then blanked my page as I no longer wanted to engage with a user with such erratic behavior.
5. Fast forward 2 weeks at he's back at my page again, telling to stop baiting him. Baiting him into coming to my page to shower me with abuse? He also told me not to comment at his page. I don't think he is in a position to come to my talk page unprovoked by anything at his own page, to tell me NOT to post at his page. I blanked my page.
6. He baited me into responding to his comment at his page. If he was so offended by my edit, why then did he respond?
7. Now I find myself at ANI because Scolaire can't keep off my page.
All the while a discussion has been going on at Talk:Derry. A discussion in which Scolaire has exhibited irrational behaviour, first by claiming the original RFC had failed, then claiming that the RFC wasn't a failure with a vote count, then goes on to say that an RFC is not a vote. Hard to follow.Dubs boy (talk) 19:15, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
To add that Scolaire has been extremely dismissive of my comments at Talk:Derry, and demeaning of my opinion, without presenting any physical opposition argument, this along with claiming I am a minority in a phoney 11-4 RFC vote, would make anyone struggle to believe that I am the bully and oppressor. I think action should be taken against this user and his disruptive approach to dealing with issues and other peoples opinions.Dubs boy (talk) 19:27, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Scolaire has come across as a user going out of his way to be offended but was happy to laugh at a similar situation here.Dubs boy (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Scolaire had also made a blind revert of this edit with the reasoning "no, it's not". Valid point? My edit was restored and had support at a discussion I had started at the same article talk page. Note that Scolaire did not join the conversation.Dubs boy (talk) 19:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Nick, please read this Talk again and show me exactly where you have stated a preference. All you have stated is that the decision was based on WP:CONSENSUS. Quoting policy is not quite the same as stating your own preference, nor a reason for keeping something the same. Scolaire has come to my page twice to pester and harass me, not the other way around.Dubs boy (talk) 21:35, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh, for God's sake. You presented several options, one of which was "Title:Derry - nothing changes". I wrote, repeatedly, in favour of that option, and I explained my reasons - because it's a long-standing agreed compromise which satisfies most editors on a question that cannot be definitively resolved, and there is no consensus to change it. For some reason you refuse to accept that, and like a really annoying toddler you bleat "but why? but why? but why?" every time I tell you.
WP:CONSENSUS is "the primary way decisions are made on Misplaced Pages". If you continue to behave the way you have behaved over this issue, refusing to WP:LISTEN to what others are saying and repeatedly pestering them to give different replies to your question because you don't like the one they've given, you will give yourself such a reputation for disruptiveness you'll struggle to get consensus that the sky is blue. --Nicknack009 (talk) 06:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Simply saying that consensus hasn't changed is not a reason. Tell me why you think the article is neutral in its current form? Tell me why we have ignored the results of an Equality Impact Assessment? This is going off topic. Scolaire trolled me to my page twice and is now trying to get me blocked for responding to his harassment. Ridiculouso.Dubs boy (talk) 14:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
See what I mean? he just will not accept the answers he receives. He's either trolling or incompetent. Admin action, please. --Nicknack009 (talk) 15:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Are you serious? Ok. I honestly thought that there would be some onus on an editor to present an opposition argument. Someone explain to me how stating "consensus hasn't changed" is a reason for not making a change. Surely those opposed to a suggestion have to provide a tangible reason as to why they are opposed? This is still off topic but here we have 2 users ganging up on me yet I am the "bully". Scolaire has raised this issue, obviously skipping some of the key events. I have presented a timeline. Let the admins decide. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dubs boy (talk • contribs) 16:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Just to add - very odd how Dubs Boy complains above that Scolaire has been "dismissive of his input" at Talk:Derry, and doesn't see the irony making (which he knows is on a different topic relating to inseting/removing the term British Isles). His comment is clearly designed to shut down my participation and belittle/devalue any disenting voices. Looking at the history of Dubs Boy's editing, it certaing appears that he is disruptive and combative at all times and does not not the meaning of how to collegiately reach consensus and/or edit. I am not suggesting this course of action as some petty "revenge" (although no doubt it might be seen as such by some) but may I suggest (as I believe) a temporary Topic Ban on his participation at Derry related topics might be in order. Perhaps if he tries editing other topics where he is not so emotionally involved, not only will WP improve overall, but perhaps it would do him some good also. -- HighKing19:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
And where there is 1 there is always another. Birds of a feather. Very odd that you should show up here Popaice. I honestly was just asking? I assumed that when you didn't respond that you were in fact topic banned. If you had responded with "No, I am not topic banned", then you would have nothing to worry about. In saying that, its very hard to keep up with your blocks and sockpuppettry.Dubs boy (talk) 19:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I indef blocked as a vandalism only account, although technically, its more of a harassment only account. I get the feeling this is a sock of someone else. Dennis Brown - 2¢20:58, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
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User:Христо Зарев Игнатов (talk, contribs) has engaged in an array of disruptive editing over the past five days, edit warring and violating 3RR on numerous pages. He has also used roving unlogged-IP addresses to evade 3RR (mostly of the series 212.5.158.xxx). He violated 3RR at Tervel of Bulgaria (history) on 26-27 June. He was blocked from editing for a day on 27 June for edit warring and misuse of logged-out editing at Kardam of Bulgaria (history). On 1 July he engaged in further disruption at Kardam and at several other pages: for example, Krum (history), Malamir of Bulgaria (history), and Kotrag (history). The editor repeatedly adds POV content and non-RS sources. This has been explained to him on multiple talk pages: especially here, but also here, here, and on his user talk page. WP guidelines such as RS have been pointed out to the user, but he has ignored them. His edits have required users such as myself, User:Cplakidas, User:TodorBozhinov, and others to track and remove them and repeatedly explain WP policy to him, to no avail. The initial block on his editing privileges clearly has not stopped his disruptive behavior, and a further block should be instituted. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 23:38, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
User is currently evading their block by using IP's (212.5.158.188 and 212.5.158.218) to edit the articles and leave disruptive user talk page message. I've added one month page protection to the articles. Bgwhite (talk) 08:17, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
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Hello I propose that the Jack Tretton article be unprotected. It was protected in June 2013 due to multiple vandalism in a single day (related to a presentation he gave) but I feel there should not be any harm in unprotecting the article now due to the fact the subject has left Sony since 2014.--Richard (Talk - Contribs) 02:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Richard, talk to the protecting admin Jauerback first. They're not that active so if they don't respond within a couple days, file a request at RFPP or post to my talk page. --NeilN03:04, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
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Legal threat against Nigel Ish by block-evading IP
Here's the legal threat against Nigel Ish, which is enough to block the guy. However, what is needed here is a rangeblock to stop this persistent IP-hopper who has also used the account Philm540. Here are some examples of the IPs he has used in the last two months:
So for a rangeblock, it looks like it would have to be as broad as 2600:1002:Bxxx. Settling for 2600:1002:B0xx would get most of these IPs, as there are only a few 2600:1002:B1s. I have not seen any other activity at these IPs so I am not worried about collateral damage. Binksternet (talk) 03:02, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
All seem to be Verizon Wireless IPs. Would 2600:1002::/47 work, or is that too big? Still having the troubles with figuring the IPv6 rangeblocks. The IPv4 range is a /20 for the 70.192.x.x group, and that might be too broad. KrakatoaKatie04:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
@KrakatoaKatie:, that would be far too small. I think you would need to do 2600:1002:B000::/39 which would cover 2600:1002:B000::-2600:1002:B1FF:: if my understanding is correct. Your proposed block would block 2600:1002:0000::-2600:1002:0002:: *I think*. Monty84504:46, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
@Monty845: you're right - it's 2600:1002:B000::/39. Until/unless he gives us more data and we can narrow it down we should block the IPv4 addresses individually. KrakatoaKatie05:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I should show my work in connecting Philm540 to the IPs. First, I cannot say what I know about the real life identity of Philm540, but I can say that the person lives in Pennsylvania, the same area to which the IPs geolocate. Second, Philm540 made this strange edit, which is a copy and paste of this edit by one of the IP6s. Third, Philm540 made this edit with Saipan spelled Siapan, and AAF written Aaf, and Group spelled Goup. All of the IPs listed here have spelling and typography which is equally bad, such as "engiine fire extingusher", and this tangle of typos. If I find the exact above-listed typos in the hundreds of posts by IPs I will be surprised. Binksternet (talk) 06:28, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This user has been blocked previously for personal attacks and disruptive edits, due to the nature of IP hopping I have had to block the pop-up IPs sometimes one or two times a day, I and others have tried to discuss his edits and blocks but it is has been clear that the user doesnt understand how wikipedia works and the requirements for reliable sourcing. Thanks to the work of Binksternet he has tied the IP use to User:Philm540, also note that at he uses the Philm540 identity while logged in as an IP. Perhaps after the legal threat and previous personal attacks we should consider a site ban of user. MilborneOne (talk) 10:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree, it does look as though we need a rangeblock. If there is collateral damage it is unfortunate, but necessary. The alternative is going to long-term semi protection of all affected articles. An action which would appear to involve more collateral damage than the proposed rangeblock. Mjroots (talk) 12:37, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
2600:1002:B000::/39 blocked one month for sockpuppetry. Holding on the Philm540 account because I think a site ban proposal is a good idea. KrakatoaKatie13:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I can do 70.192.141.0/24, which is 256 addresses, then block the other IPv4 addresses individually for now. Opinions? KrakatoaKatie16:03, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Proposed site ban of Philm540
Because of his insulting personal communication style, his refusal to work with Misplaced Pages's reliable sources policy and no original research policy, and especially because of the legal threat made against Nigel Ish, I propose that Philm540 be banned from English-language Misplaced Pages. Binksternet (talk) 15:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support the user is clearly not here to work with others, refuses to listen and attacks other editors including legal threats. MilborneOne (talk) 18:20, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
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Lachlan Foley, genre warring again
Lachlan Foley has resumed genre warring after his week-long block a few weeks ago, received as a result of this ANI post. They are edit-warring at the article Marquee Moon, attempting to rearrange the order of the genres listed in the infobox. I suspect they have some prejudice against "post-punk" as a genre since they tagged it for needing a citation at Pornography (album) but not the other genre listed there (). This editor is becoming a disruptive annoyance. My warnings to their talk page have been useless as they have not responded or taken accountability for the genre changes they've made. Block them, warn them effectively... do something, seriously *sigh* Dan56 (talk) 05:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This Incident nomination should be about @Dan56, not me.
Dan56 reverted my completely harmless, inconsequential edit which can be seen in the Marquee Moon article history, and had the temerity to call it "genre warring". He also has failed to realise – and has since been corrected by another user – that post-punk was not cited at the Pornography (album) page, and gothic rock, indeed, is. I think he is grasping at straws looking for things I am doing to complain about and is reverting my changes on the Marquee Moon article out of spite. Lachlan Foley (talk) 05:42, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Where was "gothic rock" cited at the time you edited Pornography (album)? And where was the consensus or discussion you created to support rearranging and revising the genres at Marquee Moon? Nowhere is where, because you are nothing but a genre warrior, an editor who spends 99% of their time making revisions to the genre parameter of the infobox. I do not know enough to want to "spite" you for something because I don't know anything about you, except for your pattern of behavior as an editor, and your edit history doesn't lie. If your edit is "completely harmless, inconsequential", then stop restoring it, and refrain from revising the genre parameter of the infobox at album articles because you clearly have a disruptive obsession for it. Again, your edit history is made up almost entirely of those kind of edits. Dan56 (talk) 06:12, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Seeing as these articles are either GA or FA, then the minimum LF should do is raise the issue on the talkpage(s), instead of going back to exactly the same behaviour that got him blocked only last month. Lugnuts08:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Disruptive editing by Joshua Jonathan
NO ACTION
This is a content/style dispute that does not require admin intervention at this stage. As Abecedare suggests, these matters can be discussed on the appropriate article talk page. Philg88
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Joshua Jonathan is indulging in disruptive editing at the following talk page: . The modus operandi is to move comments he had already made in one section of the talk page (Shankara's Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism--Joshua has now deleted this section header) to another section of the talk page (Shankara and Buddhism). His own comments and also my own comments are also freely placed in a new section('Headers') in the talk page that he has created. A previous section header (Shankara's Vedanta and Mahayana Buddhism) with his comments and also my comments has been removed by Joshua as i mentioned. All this is resulting in confusion. I have tried to impress upon him the need to retain content that has already been written in one section of the talk page and not create confusion by moving content in the talk page from one section to another section, removing section headers, placing old content (of his posts and also my posts) in newly created section headers, etc. but he is not prepared to listen to me. Soham321 (talk) 06:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The only way i could impress upon Joshua not to play around on the talk page moving edits from one section to another, removing section headers, placing edits from a section to a newly created section was to revert his edits where he was doing this. This seems to have made him very angry going by his comments in the edit summary of the talk page where he reverts me, and also his comments in the talk page. Soham321 (talk) 06:22, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
After a short while, Jonathan (using common-sense IMO) merged the two talkpage sections on the exact same topic, w/o deleting any content.
Soham responded by not only undoing Joshua's merger but also deleting Joshua's subsequent replies, not once but twice!
Frankly this is all very silly, and I hope that this ANI is closed with editors told to simply get back to discussing the article content, and not get lost in discussing how the discussion sections are organized on the article talkpage. No admin action should be needed, unless Soham's disruption and needless escalation continues. Abecedare (talk) 06:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I am unable to participate in the talk page if edits are moved around freely from one section to another, section headers are removed, and edits in an older section (in this case, my edits and also Jonathan's edits) are placed in a newly created section header. I appreciate the fact that Abecedare--who has also been commenting on the talk page--has participated in this discussion. My understanding though is that majority does not constitute consensus in some cases. And this is one such case. Soham321 (talk) 06:31, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
This is the height of WP:IRONY. Soham321 doesn't even know how to indent. I don't know how many times @Ogress: and I had to correct his indentation. He would combine his post with other editors, despite explanations not to do so.VictoriaGrayson 06:40, 2 July 2015 (UTC)What Victoria is accusing me of doing is making a post in the way i am making right now. It is true that i have done this occasionally (not always). But there is a big difference between this, and moving edits from one section to another, removing section headers and placing edits (in this case, my edits and also Joshua's edits) written in a particular section into a newly created section. As i mentioned earlier, majority does not constitute consensus in some cases, and it is my belief that this is one such case. Soham321 (talk) 06:45, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Wow Soham321, just did it on this ANI page! He just jammed his comment into mine. Soham321 engages in the most disruptive editing of any editor I have encountered on Misplaced Pages.VictoriaGrayson06:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
King's tactics in discussion, attacking people's motives, accusing people of meat and sock puppetry, accusing people of being "conspiracy" minded, and so forth are contrary to the Misplaced Pages:Good faith. As will be seen a number of times in these histories, King prods other editors of good intent until they (unwisely) strike back, then he calmly lectures them about civility, as though the whole scenario were a deliberate strategy. The long-term, relentless, single-purpose history of reducing carefully constructed articles and attacking other editors suggests WP:LONG and WP:ANTIWP. Reluctantly, I am requesting a block on King's account. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 07:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC) (updated Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 08:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC))
Sfarney is being aggressive and assumptive about all that. That particular talk page and now this have gotten very intense. If I am at fault somehow I apologize. As far as I know my editing skills stress reliable sources.
My goal on Misplaced Pages is grunt worker with interests but keeping my own interests, not noticeable. The Zeitgeist article is an intense spot partly because of the call from the group organizers to come to Misplaced Pages to edit There more calls on various related sites that specifically point out myself as a gatekeeper which to me does not make a lot of sense. I hope I am not a single purpose editor. It might seem like that because once this article is on your watch list it seems to require a lot of attention if one is willing to give it attention. Earl King Jr. (talk) 09:26, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Proposal for topic ban
The last AN discussion was where Earl just wore everyone down. He is an SPA that causes more problems than benefit. I'm tired of the constant friction, so it seems the logical choice is to just act and be done with this instead of droning on about it for weeks and everyone gets tired and he gets his way. If we are here to prevent disruption, let's prevent disruption using the tools we have:
Earl King Jr. is topic banned from all subjects related to the Zeitgeist movie, movement or any persons related to this topic (construed broadly), on article, talk pages, or any other page on Misplaced Pages. This is for an indefinite period of time and may be appealed at WP:AN after a period of one year.
Oppose I have been editing on the Zeitgeist page for about two weeks (drawn by RFC), during that period I have agreed with EKJr on almost nothing. However my experience of his behaviour has been that he 'backs off' when reasonable arguments are presented calmly. In contrast, other editors on talk don't simply 'lose their cool' occasionally, but appear to prefer a 'gladitorial' approach, of which this ANI and the recent BLP are manifestations. I invite others to examine the recent talk page and come to their own judgements as to whether banning EKJr, would achieve anything.Pincrete (talk) 12:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Hmmmm The original complaint here is that EKJ is "dedicated for the last year (almost) exclusively to reducing Zeitgeist (film series) and related articles (Peter Joseph, Zeitgeist Movement, etc. to a single article. Well, as for the Zeitgeist Movement, looking at the last version, pretty much 90% of the content and sources were actually about the movies. So in that case, EKJ appears to be correct. And that article, since its redirection, has seen nothing but sockpuppets trying to restore it. Meanwhile, looking at Peter Joseph, he looks a bit marginal in notability terms as well. Black Kite (talk)14:35, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support (response to Pincrete's oppose) Two weeks isn't nearly enough, I think. I've been watching this topic for years and EKJ really stands out with his relentless efforts to make these articles as negative and crappy as possible, and argues over damn near everything he possibly can. Look at his edit analysis and top edited pages to see the extent of this. From what I've seen, he interprets policy to fit his own agenda (i.e. he's not being truly neutral), and his own improvements to the articles have often been sloppy/poorly written. The Zeitgeist talk pages are full of angry arguments every single day and this has been going on for ages now, literally years. I think the rest of us really deserve a vacation from him. There have been plenty of other editors active on these pages who are neutral (I mean, not-pro-Zeitgeist) who are perfectly capable of keeping these articles in line with policy and dealing with the occasional pro-Zeitgeist SPAs that show up every now and then. EKJs participation isn't necessary and frankly I think he's the one who has wasted the most of our collective time (and nerves). The topic itself isn't worth it. These movies are relatively old by now. Why is it such a big deal? I don't know. A forced topic ban seems like the best way to deal with this. Pincrete, I completely understand why you see that "the level of abuse AGAINST this editor has exceeded any that he has initiated" -- it's happening now because we've finally had enough of him and we feel the need to make it very obvious. — Jeraphine Gryphon14:43, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support I think EKJ deserves credit for combating zealous pro-Zeitgeist SPAs screwing with the page, especially when it was at the height of its popularity, but his contributions outside of that have been mired in consistently pushing sloppy anti-Zeitgeist content to such extreme lengths. It is a polarizing article/topic and emotions run high, but when it gets to where you'd use capitalization as a weapon, it's time to find another article to work on. He has demonstrated he is capable of spotting poor/weak content when it fits his agenda, so I believe he'd be an asset to any collaboration on a mainstream article. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 17:41, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Support. EKJ has a long history of using Zietgeist-related talk pages as a soapbox for venting his own personal opinions, routinely characterises contributors who disagree with him as 'SPAs' or claims thet they have been canvassed to edit, and as a matter of habit assesses sources not on their reliability and significance, but instead on whether they conform with his personal perspective - see for example his recent attempt to use a conspiracy-theorists forum in support of arguments, (see the first link - to here ), and his attempt (in the same post) to cite a source as evidence that TZM is 'right wing', when the source actually writes "in the case of Zeitgeist the labels “left” and “right” are pretty useless descriptors." AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Send to ArbCom - The community has been unable to deal with disruptive editing by multiple editors on this subject in the recent past. It is true that EKJ has engaged in tendentious editing on Zeitgeist. At the same time, User:AndyTheGrump has engaged in over-the-top personal attacks on EKJ. A previous WP:AN thread was archived without action. Singling out any one editor for sanctions would oversimplify the scope of the problem. A full evidentiary case is needed to identify multiple problematic editing patterns. While some of the topics of Zeitgeist are already within the scope of discretionary sanctions under either September 11 conspiracy theories, American politics since 1933, or biographies of living persons, imposing discretionary sanctions on all aspects of Zeitgeist would be helpful also. A full evidentiary hearing should be requested to identify multiple patterns of disruptive editing. (My own involvement is that I attempted to mediate at the dispute resolution noticeboard. Mediation resulted in three RFCs and was unpleasant due to battleground editing.) Robert McClenon (talk) 18:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I will readily admit that my behaviour over this issue hasn't always been ideal - I would however prefer it if Robert McClenon didn't single me out , and then go on to imply that I was engaging in 'battleground editing' in a DRN discussion I took no part in whatsoever - it should be noted that I wasn't involved at all in the 'unpleasant' DRN discussion. As for taking this to ArbCom, I personally don't think it would be necessary if EKJ is topic banned, and will reiterate what I said in the last ANI discussion - that if EKJ is topic banned, I am happy to stay away from the topic myself. I had voluntarily stayed away from the topic for a long period, and only returned to it as a result of seeing the way EKJ's behaviour was affecting encyclopaedic coverage in a clearly unacceptable manner - the fact that few people apparently like the movies, the movement, or Peter Joseph isn't in my opinion a legitimate reason to cherry-pick sources in an entirely partisan manner. Either the subject is notable, in which case it deserves balanced treatment, or it isn't, in which case it doesn't merit coverage at all. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:10, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Discussion
I think you have to go back more than two weeks to get the full picture. He's been under the eye of the last report for the last 4 weeks. Dennis Brown - 2¢13:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Dennis Brown I have only skimmed past discussions and so will not comment, beyond saying that if the purpose of a ban is not to punish, but to effect change, even less is it as an excuse to punish for 'stale' crimes. Could we have the diffs to make our own assesments? My own judgement over the last few weeks is that the level of abuse AGAINST this editor has exceeded any that he has initiated.Pincrete (talk) 14:28, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The diffs are in the discussion, the archives and the previous ANI that was linked. And the purpose of a topic ban, like a block, isn't to effect change. It is to prevent disruption. Unlike a block, a topic ban lets them contribute elsewhere, and in time, show they can eventually edit in that area again. Dennis Brown - 2¢15:18, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Dennis Brown, clarification, I didn't mean to affect change to the individual, rather to the 'climate' on the article, so in that sense we agree.Pincrete (talk) 15:52, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
That makes sense, it just wasn't in the typical "wikispeak" I'm used to. That said, I know very little about the editor except he is a regular source of controversy. Either the community will support or oppose, but hopefully we will be done bickering either way. Sometimes you have to just put it on the line. Dennis Brown - 2¢16:28, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I'm an IP, so I don't expect my opinion matters much, but in the short time I've been active I've noticed lots of sloppy edits in the article, that, if not originate from EKJ, are/were defended doggedly by him. Like including cherry picked from unrelated sources, blanking synopsis and recommending negative film review take it's place, weird edits that push POV OR that article should stress over the top that films/organization/name are owned by the director 1, 2, edit warring on capitalizing proper noun, and inserting flamebait which probably makes article the source of so much vandalism. That said, I think his greatest contributions have been keeping out FRINGE Zeitgeist supporting primary source content. I don't know if that excuses the sloppy anti-Zeitgeist POV pushing that ends up creating just as much work to wade through and clean up though. I'm pretty sure any of the neutral editors that hang around article would be capable of improving quality of article without fueling as much drama. 70.36.233.104 (talk) 16:00, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I have been directly involved in many of the discussions mentioned in the opening statement regarding the Zeitgeist articles and Earl's desire to see them merged together (as such I feel this is a valid exemption as outlined in my conduct noticeboard ban). To respond to what Black Kite is saying, a big part of the reason the article on The Zeitgeist Movement was mostly about the movies is because of Earl's editing. See these twodiscussions I previously had over his edits to minimize material about the movement in favor of material about the movies in the article on the movement. When these articles were merged it was actually because an RfC I initiated over whether the reception section should be about the movement or the movies got hijacked into a merge discussion. My involvement in this has included past discussions of Earl's behavior in this topic area. You can see some evidence I presented in that thread from a few months ago regarding his edits, a link to a past discussion about his conduct where I was involved, and evidence of him engaging in copy-right infringing edits on multiple articles related to Cambodia, which still remains a problem.--The Devil's Advocatetlk.cntrb.17:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
AndyTheGrump cites King's copyright violations in an earlier ANI: on this page.
Community General Sanctions
I have, above, said that this case should be sent to ArbCom as a matter that the community has been unable to resolve. However, there is one step that the community can take toward resolution. That is to impose community general sanctions, to allow any uninvolved administrator to act against any disruptive editor. If ArbCom takes this case, then in the final decision they can convert the general sanctions to ArbCom sanctions. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Can a few admins have a look at Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Douglas Todd? There seem to be an awful lot of strong opinions on the debate, which in itself is not necessarily an issue, but the proliferation of redlinked users and IPs leads me to wonder if there's a sock farm at work here. (I haven't pinged anyone aside from the two obvious main protagonists, Stuart lyster (talk·contribs) and 142.59.217.7 (talk·contribs) because I'm not complaining about any specific editor, rather just the general progression of the debate, but please advise if I should). Ritchie33312:59, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've tagged it with {{notavote}} although that is of questionable value. Socking is a real possibility, but hard to tell without CU with so few edits. Dennis Brown - 2¢13:16, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Also, I have seen AFDs get semi-protected, but not under this situation. Has to be pretty extreme. Like serious vandalism, or when 4chan comes to town, trolling. Dennis Brown - 2¢13:25, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I think it could be meatpuppetry. The IPs look to be from Vancouver Telus and Verizon in Fredericksburg, Virginia. Unless he's crossing over the US/Canada border with the international data plan to beat all data plans, it's probably not the same guy. But the closing admin can take all that into account. KrakatoaKatie14:32, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, these are static broadband IPs. You'd need CU to see which one could be the Stuart Iyster account. That last SPA !vote looks suspicious too. KrakatoaKatie14:38, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Having spent a little time sussing things out, it looks like this is a messy canvas involving mostly Canadian single-purpose editors, most for keep, a couple against. There is probably a discussion about this debate somewhere on the internets. Aside from the non-standard "Do Not Delete" language, it seems at a glance that most of these are different accounts opining about a widely-read religious columnist in a large Canadian newspaper. I'd advise Ritchie333 to step back and let nature take its course, as I don't see sources that will get this article over the GNG bar. I do question the need to delete such an article, but then again I do have a soft spot for journalist biographies, which are notoriously hard to source out. Carrite (talk) 17:54, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
This version of Daniel iwuji was tagged for speedy deletion as a hoax. However, there is an indication from the web that this is basically an attack page on a real person (a non-notable secondary school student), no doubt created by a "friend". A new editor, trying to be helpful, removed the speedy deletion and actually redirected it to Michael Essien (the entirely spurious redirect added by the article's creator). Given the content in the history and BLP implications, this page should be completely deleted. Does it really have to go to RFD or can an administrator simply delete it now? Voceditenore (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User:Handpolk
Hi,
I want to report User:Handpolk. He keeps harassing me, reverting all of my recent edits, calling all my edits vandalism/spam/etc. He also stalks my every move on Misplaced Pages, makes personal attacks on my talk page and other talk pages where I try to discuss with other people.
I tried to dicuss disputes with this person, but I couldn't as he keeps writing the same thing all over again and you can't make a proper dicussion with him on anything. He also keeps deleting my every message from his talk page and spams my talk page.
There are more examples of his similar behaviour related to me, but 3 examples should be enough for now. I call this stalking, harassment, vandalism. This user is doing all that on purpose and is trying to engage me in an edit war which I won't take. – Sabbatino (talk) 15:47, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Do you really want to be accusing Handpolk of needlessly calling your edits vandalism? Anyway, near as I can tell, these two are disagreeing over a pair of NBA-related disputes. First, How to describe the current champions in their article, and second, mentioning certain players who have been elected to the NBA Hall of Fame but not yet inducted on team articles. And if this thread is any indication, neither is the other's actions in good faith. However, there does appear to be merit to Sabbatino's arguments. I came somewhat involved in this when noting Sabbatino's removal of an uncited piece of trivia on a hockey article with the summary of "No source + not relevant". Handpolk reverted that 23 minutes later, then immediately reverted another one of Sabbatino's edits with the same "No source + not relevant" summary, despite the fact that the only thing Sabbatino did was convert a plain date into a template format in an infobox. IMO, that was a bad faith revert by Handpolk designed to anger Sabbatino. And I don't get the impression the latter needs much help in that regard. Both are acting in bad faith, but Handpolk does seem to be stalking here. Resolute17:23, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I've watched this for a bit, and I agree that both editors are not behaving well. Neither Handpolk, nor Sabbatino have engaged in any article talk page discussion regarding their edits. Handpolk has followed to Sabbatino to other articles, however they all appear to be sports related. He has not changed any edit that Sabbatino has done to non-sports related articles. Also note that Sabbatino has filed at WP: AIV against Handpolk, and a long term harrassment complaint against Handpolk. Neither editor has acted very well, and both editors should be reminded to use the talk page to resolve their dispute instead of constant reverts, and accusations of vandalism. --Kyohyi (talk) 17:36, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
I didn't disagree with anything. He just started editing everything I edit. That's all. He also started harassing me when he became a stalker. Then he called me a troll and said I personally attacked him. And he didn't even asked to go to talk page as he just started his "fun". Normal users always ask me why I did this or why I did that, but not this person as he just started all those wars for no reason (maybe to make me angry, but I was/am/will be calm, because some people just don't know what discussion means). – Sabbatino (talk) 19:02, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
, That said even if it was mentioned right up the top it wouldn't made a blind bit of difference unfortunately . –Davey2010 01:37, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
--IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:43, 26 June 2015 (UTC)
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