| Revision as of 14:17, 23 June 2015 editCtrlXctrlV (talk | contribs)4,368 editsNo edit summary← Previous edit | Revision as of 20:03, 4 July 2015 edit undoAtsme (talk | contribs)Autopatrolled, Extended confirmed users, Page movers, New page reviewers, Pending changes reviewers, Rollbackers42,803 edits →aBan appeal and other issues: new sectionNext edit → | ||
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| == Thanks == | == Thanks == | ||
| Initially for the support, despite not knowing you, and now for the guidance I will follow. ] (]) 14:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | Initially for the support, despite not knowing you, and now for the guidance I will follow. ] (]) 14:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC) | ||
| == aBan appeal and other issues == | |||
| Hi, Lankiveil - first I want to thank you for reviewing my case at AN. I realize it is not an easy case considering I've been unable to change the focus from the short duration of the aBan to the events that led up to it, and of course there's Callan who is a well-liked, highly respected admin. I have no animosity toward Callan, but I do believe his bias and preconceived notions are a detriment where I'm concerned. I don't consider my request to be unreasonable. I also understand your perspective since you also work as an ARBCOM clerk which I do appreciate. I can only imagine it being a tedious and thankless job. I looked into applying as a clerk, but the selections had already been made. I now try to help at DRN when time permits, and I close at AN/I from time to time. Back on point - I actually tried my best to not include diffs that were overly incriminating because my purpose was not to get anyone in trouble. I just want the aBan removed from the log and for Callan to recuse himself from future admin interactions against me because of his bias, perceived or otherwise. I truly like Callan, and once trusted his judgment without question but I believe he has the wrong impression of me and that isn't going to change. I have also taken a lot of abuse from Guy and mistakenly believed he would somehow suddenly become more collegiate in his demeanor, but I see now that he will never change. He is who he is and because of his tenure, he will continuously be allowed to get away with things the rest of us will be banned for doing, even if it's to the detriment of the project. That's just how it goes and quite frankly, it's wiki-wide. We're losing editors by the droves - there's an article about ], and another article about the ], and we even have a very active project with the hopes of ending the systemic biases. Does that not speak volumes? Editors aren't supposed to be righting great wrongs but that is exactly what is happening when we see pods of editors (cabals) tag-teaming and justifying what they do citing ]. What we end up with is ] and also malleable ] which are now being applied as needed, and yes, it's truly a sad state of affairs. | |||
| Based on your response that the arguments used in the appeal were rather unimpressive, I decided to add a few of the more incriminating diffs at AN. You were wise to say that my "continuing to assert bias from those who say you don't want to hear is only going to make people dig in even further." You will get no argument from me in that regard. In retrospect, it appears I stepped right in the middle of what looks very much like a skeptic's advocacy group when I tried to expand the Griffin BLP, not knowing it was intended to be and will remain a coatrack despite the attempts of several experienced BLP editors to correct it. The issues are numerous, some of which clearly reflect both a skeptic and political bias, , , . Following are more examples of the attacks against me, , despite the science, , the latter of which also demonstrates the parallels with some of the same editors at the Kombucha article that resulted in my aBan. Guy has never tried to hide the fact that he is a skeptic. He has received accolades from the Guerrilla Skeptic advocacy, the latter of which I actually have no problem with at all. I truly believe they serve a good purpose in their fight against quackery and snake-oil cures. I believe they are trying to do the right thing but as with any organization there will always be the "overzealous" members and it appears GS may have more than their share. In light of it all, I made the decision to not take the behavioral issues to ARBCOM but I am now having second thoughts. I'm not the one who won't drop the stick, Lankiveil. I'm the one who is getting beaten by it no matter where I go and I just want the beatings to stop. | |||
| The sad part is that none of the allegations made against me are true, not one, but when a lie is repeated enough times, it becomes the truth, and that is exactly what's happening. It's also what I believe is the root cause for Callan's bias against me. I am not convinced that he has actually taken the time to analyze content or the root cause of the arguments. Few admins actually have the time to do so, therefore it is not inconceivable to think they pick sides and take whatever they are told at face value. Another very useful tactic is the age old attack and discredit deployment as the diffs I just uploaded to AN will evidence. I've also provided a few here: | |||
| * was rewarded with this , . | |||
| *, , , , , , , and there are numerous others, none of which reflects an ounce of accuracy and are full of misinformation which is why diffs never accompany the allegations. I've AGF, wrote an essay about what I perceive some of the problems to be, ], was attacked for writing it, and the attacks continue. Some of the same editors are now preventing me from expanding and improving the essay I created and co-authored, and have made false accusations against me. What is fair about any of this, Lankiveil? My edits are reverted by some of the same tag team members who reverted me at Griffin and Kombucha. One would have to be blind to see it's clearly a matter of "gaming of the system", and fooling admins into believing I'm the bad guy like what just happened to me with Callan. <font style="text-shadow:#F8F8FF 0.2em 0.2em 0.4em,#F4BBFF -0.2em -0.3em 0.6em,#BFFF00 0.8em 0.8em 0.6em;color:#A2006D">]</font><sup>]]</sup> 20:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC) | |||
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Hotel Okura Amsterdam
Hi, I am deeply unhappy with your decision in the AfD about Hotel Okura Amsterdam. I have never seen the discussion, otherwise I would have weight in. Is there any chance to change the outcome from "merge" to "delete"? After all, it would be rather strange to let the hotel article point to just one of the four well known restaurants (three with stars, one with Bib Gourmand). And reviewing the present article about the hotel, the most useful part is the address and this is/will be in the articles about the Michelin starred restaurants.
An other point is that mixing two subjects in one article (restaurant and hotel) is not the best idea. Hope to hear soon. The Banner talk 10:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @The Banner: I think that the consensus was pretty clear for Merge, although I'm happy for you to exercise whatever discretion you like in deciding what to merge, and picking additional targets like Yamazato if you wish. Lankiveil 10:48, 8 June 2015 (UTC).
Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/2012–13 Hyde F.C. season
I'm surprised that you deleted 2012–13 Hyde F.C. season given that there was no refutation of my argument that the article met WP:GNG and the case against it was on other grounds. I'm even more surprised that you didn't address that in the closing statement. Can you please expand on your closing statement? Nfitz (talk) 11:15, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: I feel that User:Number 57 fairly conclusively refuted your argument. I also took note of the fact that you were the only one dissenting in a fairly well attended discussion from the proposal to delete the article. Lankiveil 11:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC).
- How did User:Number 57 refute my argument at all, let alone conclusively? My argument is that based on the references in the article, and other provided, that the subject meets WP:GNG. User:Number 57 didn't even attempt to refute that, but simply repeated other claims - which aren't relevant, because WP:GNG trumps those claims. In addition, after I pointed to sources that supported the WP:GNG claim, no other editor even commented - other than User:Number 57. As such, I think the closing statement needs more detail. And the more I look at this, it looks like a bad close, that should be going to DRV. Nfitz (talk) 15:27, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: Your record at AfD and of deprodding articles (look at your deleted user contributions) suggests that you do not understand GNG, or have a rather different interpretation of it to the majority of other editors. I suggest that rather than continue to waste editors time by forcing AfDs or DRVs when the outcome is fairly predictable, you accept the apparent consensus that certain topics are not deemed notable by other editors, and instead concentrate on topics that are notable. Although your behaviour in this sphere has been regarded as a problem for years, it really looks like you now appear to be little more than a WP:SPA dedicated to removing prods and arguing keep at AfDs – I can't see a single edit in your last 50 (since mid-May) that isn't in some way related to doing this. Number 57 15:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hang on. That's a completely unnecessary personal attack. Also the link you provided is broken (for me at least). Please provide a version I can review. I can't recall DRVing an article in a long time - I'm not sure what's that in reference too. The last couple I can think of were simple restoration requests that were done without much debate. Many of the articles I've deprodded that ended up in consensus that the articles should exist; some haven't. I'd suggest that User:Number 57 is completely out-of-line here with WP:AFG violations. It also completely fails to address the argument that this particular article does indeed meet WP:GNG. In addition #57 implies I'm a serial DRVer; I can only find 2 DRVs I've raised in the last 5 years. One was quickly overturned (article restored), and the other was withdrawn and the article restored as the player got a professional start. Going further back I raised a single DRV in 2009 that was overturned (article was returned to AFD and subsequently kept). I did raise some in 2008 ... is that relevant though? Nfitz (talk) 16:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: I'm not sure how stating the facts constitute a personal attack; you are not a serial DRVer (I never said you were), but you are a serial deprodder (your contributions history clearly show you do little else these days; your last edit not related to an AfD or prod was on 4 May, since which you have made 85 edits, including removing prods from seven articles that were subsequently deleted at AfD) and have forced tens of pointless AfDs. I wasn't aware that non-admins wouldn't be able to see that link, but basically it shows all the articles you deprodded (often claiming GNG) that were subsequently deleted. Your behaviour has even previously been reported on ANI. Number 57 18:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- That doesn't seven make sense. 7 articles deleted at AFD since May 4th but 10s of AFDs? That suggests that many were kept after going to AFD. And off-hand I can see about 10 in that time that didn't even go to AFD, because no one thought it was worth deleting after my deprod comments. Sure, I make mistake some times, but more of the articles I deprod are kept, then deleted. I've certainly had plenty of edits that aren't deletion-related ... though certainly less lately now that the soccer season has started ... I'm not sure why you are focussing only on the last few weeks ... I've got a decade of editing, with some very long breaks, and only a few edits in recent weeks. Though even since May 4th, I've done some article clean-up after it's clear an article won't be deleted; But none of this has any relevance to this discussion, for which you've done everything but refute the claim that the article in question meets . Perhaps we should for the moderator to comment, rather than you persisting in WP:AGF violations. Nfitz (talk) 19:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: Read again and check where parts of sentences are in parentheses. This has been a problem since at least 2008, so any GF was lost many moons ago. Number 57 19:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- This is all very interesting, but I think I've answered the original question sufficiently, and anyone who thinks I have erred is welcome to go to DRV. In the meantime, it would be good if you could take this new discussion off of my talkpage. Thanks, Lankiveil 23:34, 8 June 2015 (UTC).
- @Nfitz: Read again and check where parts of sentences are in parentheses. This has been a problem since at least 2008, so any GF was lost many moons ago. Number 57 19:28, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- That doesn't seven make sense. 7 articles deleted at AFD since May 4th but 10s of AFDs? That suggests that many were kept after going to AFD. And off-hand I can see about 10 in that time that didn't even go to AFD, because no one thought it was worth deleting after my deprod comments. Sure, I make mistake some times, but more of the articles I deprod are kept, then deleted. I've certainly had plenty of edits that aren't deletion-related ... though certainly less lately now that the soccer season has started ... I'm not sure why you are focussing only on the last few weeks ... I've got a decade of editing, with some very long breaks, and only a few edits in recent weeks. Though even since May 4th, I've done some article clean-up after it's clear an article won't be deleted; But none of this has any relevance to this discussion, for which you've done everything but refute the claim that the article in question meets . Perhaps we should for the moderator to comment, rather than you persisting in WP:AGF violations. Nfitz (talk) 19:16, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: I'm not sure how stating the facts constitute a personal attack; you are not a serial DRVer (I never said you were), but you are a serial deprodder (your contributions history clearly show you do little else these days; your last edit not related to an AfD or prod was on 4 May, since which you have made 85 edits, including removing prods from seven articles that were subsequently deleted at AfD) and have forced tens of pointless AfDs. I wasn't aware that non-admins wouldn't be able to see that link, but basically it shows all the articles you deprodded (often claiming GNG) that were subsequently deleted. Your behaviour has even previously been reported on ANI. Number 57 18:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Hang on. That's a completely unnecessary personal attack. Also the link you provided is broken (for me at least). Please provide a version I can review. I can't recall DRVing an article in a long time - I'm not sure what's that in reference too. The last couple I can think of were simple restoration requests that were done without much debate. Many of the articles I've deprodded that ended up in consensus that the articles should exist; some haven't. I'd suggest that User:Number 57 is completely out-of-line here with WP:AFG violations. It also completely fails to address the argument that this particular article does indeed meet WP:GNG. In addition #57 implies I'm a serial DRVer; I can only find 2 DRVs I've raised in the last 5 years. One was quickly overturned (article restored), and the other was withdrawn and the article restored as the player got a professional start. Going further back I raised a single DRV in 2009 that was overturned (article was returned to AFD and subsequently kept). I did raise some in 2008 ... is that relevant though? Nfitz (talk) 16:06, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- @Nfitz: Your record at AfD and of deprodding articles (look at your deleted user contributions) suggests that you do not understand GNG, or have a rather different interpretation of it to the majority of other editors. I suggest that rather than continue to waste editors time by forcing AfDs or DRVs when the outcome is fairly predictable, you accept the apparent consensus that certain topics are not deemed notable by other editors, and instead concentrate on topics that are notable. Although your behaviour in this sphere has been regarded as a problem for years, it really looks like you now appear to be little more than a WP:SPA dedicated to removing prods and arguing keep at AfDs – I can't see a single edit in your last 50 (since mid-May) that isn't in some way related to doing this. Number 57 15:53, 8 June 2015 (UTC)
- Back to original question. Can you point to where anyone refuted WP:GNG argument? Sorry to belabour this, but I'm perplexed by all the chaff, but no substance. Nfitz (talk) 00:43, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
- Again, all I have to offer is that obviously every other participant in the discussion did not agree with your assertion that the topic met the GNG. These things are subjective, and it is possible to disagree on them. However, the consensus in this one was pretty clear I thought. Lankiveil 14:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC).
- I thought decisions were made on strength of argument, not number of votes. I'm not actually seeing anywhere in the debate where anyone challenges the WP:GNG claim I made after I provided references. Nfitz (talk) 03:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- Also note that Misplaced Pages guidlines such as Misplaced Pages:Guide to deletion#Closure say that during closure "A good admin will transparently explain how the decision was reached" - surely then there is an expection of some kind of closing statement in an AFD, where no one contested the Keep argument after it was made. I'm not asking you to revert; I'm simply asking you to complete the closure as per Misplaced Pages guidelines. Nfitz (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- As I said, if the article was a slamdunk GNG case, then I'd expect that more than a single participant would have pointed that out. I think your argument is a lot weaker than you think it is. There was no way that anyone was going to close a case with such a strong consensus for delete in any other way, sorry. As for explaining it, no admin gives a detailed rationale for every discussion, I have met the guidelines by responding to you here. Lankiveil 01:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC).
- I'd always assumed that guideline applied to the closing statement, rather than post-closing discussion - but you have fulfilled the guideline. I don't think it's a slamdunk GNG case either - but I think there is a case, and the debate is worth having, as I'm not aware of much debate on this (GNG) aspect of 5th tier clubs that operate on a national level (though I'd be happy if someone was to point me one - the ones that I've pointed too have made no claims of GNG). No, I don't think it would have been closed as a keep either, based on the debate - I'd have assumed it would have been relisted for further debate. Only one editor commented after I provided references supporting GNG - and they never mentioned the GNG aspect of this. In addition, no attempt was made at any time during the process to contact any of the stakeholders (anyone who has ever edited the article) - WP:DGFA notes that If the major stakeholders have not been notified of the proposed deletion or given time to respond, reliable consensus determinations will rarely be possible; finally at about midnight BST on June 8th, I contacted a single stakeholder however you closed the discussion about 8 hours later at 8 AM BST without any participation (or probably any knowledge) of the stakeholder. I'd have thought that the discussion should be relisted for further debate. Though it's presumably too late to do this at this stage; so I assume we are looking at DRV (which isn't a place I really want to go - mostly from a time perspective) - though I wonder if perhaps debating subject in another forum might be appropriate. Nfitz (talk) 16:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
- As I said, if the article was a slamdunk GNG case, then I'd expect that more than a single participant would have pointed that out. I think your argument is a lot weaker than you think it is. There was no way that anyone was going to close a case with such a strong consensus for delete in any other way, sorry. As for explaining it, no admin gives a detailed rationale for every discussion, I have met the guidelines by responding to you here. Lankiveil 01:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC).
- Also note that Misplaced Pages guidlines such as Misplaced Pages:Guide to deletion#Closure say that during closure "A good admin will transparently explain how the decision was reached" - surely then there is an expection of some kind of closing statement in an AFD, where no one contested the Keep argument after it was made. I'm not asking you to revert; I'm simply asking you to complete the closure as per Misplaced Pages guidelines. Nfitz (talk) 16:34, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
- I thought decisions were made on strength of argument, not number of votes. I'm not actually seeing anywhere in the debate where anyone challenges the WP:GNG claim I made after I provided references. Nfitz (talk) 03:38, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
- Again, all I have to offer is that obviously every other participant in the discussion did not agree with your assertion that the topic met the GNG. These things are subjective, and it is possible to disagree on them. However, the consensus in this one was pretty clear I thought. Lankiveil 14:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC).
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Vandalism by User:Samee
One Vandal namely User:Samee nominated article namely Rehmat Aziz for deletion. After consensus the decision was strong keep. Now the Vandal Samee removed all content from article Rehmat Aziz, deleted all references, all photos, all sources, all external links for his personal enmity with the renowned personality Rehmat Aziz. It is pertinent to mention here that he is the confirmed vandal in urdu wikipedia and the administrator of urdu wikipedia revoked his admin rights due to his vandalism in Urdu Misplaced Pages and his username has been banned. He is a confirmed sock puppet of User:Farhad Uddin, User:Deepak Chitrali and User:Najaf ali bhayo and they have moved article Rehmat Aziz Chitrali to Rehmat Aziz without any reason. The three users are the same person. User:Samee has been blocked for his vandalism by the administrator of Urdu wiki. Please blockUser:Samee and remove his adminship access and block him for abuse of admin access. I don't think he is qualified for admin or any access in Misplaced Pages. Please revert all his edits done by the vandalUser:Samee and restore all article to their original position--Abdulqayyumfsc (talk) 13:34, 15 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks
Initially for the support, despite not knowing you, and now for the guidance I will follow. CtrlXctrlV (talk) 14:17, 23 June 2015 (UTC)
aBan appeal and other issues
Hi, Lankiveil - first I want to thank you for reviewing my case at AN. I realize it is not an easy case considering I've been unable to change the focus from the short duration of the aBan to the events that led up to it, and of course there's Callan who is a well-liked, highly respected admin. I have no animosity toward Callan, but I do believe his bias and preconceived notions are a detriment where I'm concerned. I don't consider my request to be unreasonable. I also understand your perspective since you also work as an ARBCOM clerk which I do appreciate. I can only imagine it being a tedious and thankless job. I looked into applying as a clerk, but the selections had already been made. I now try to help at DRN when time permits, and I close at AN/I from time to time. Back on point - I actually tried my best to not include diffs that were overly incriminating because my purpose was not to get anyone in trouble. I just want the aBan removed from the log and for Callan to recuse himself from future admin interactions against me because of his bias, perceived or otherwise. I truly like Callan, and once trusted his judgment without question but I believe he has the wrong impression of me and that isn't going to change. I have also taken a lot of abuse from Guy and mistakenly believed he would somehow suddenly become more collegiate in his demeanor, but I see now that he will never change. He is who he is and because of his tenure, he will continuously be allowed to get away with things the rest of us will be banned for doing, even if it's to the detriment of the project. That's just how it goes and quite frankly, it's wiki-wide. We're losing editors by the droves - there's an article about Gender_bias_on_Wikipedia, and another article about the Criticism_of_Wikipedia, and we even have a very active project with the hopes of ending the systemic biases. Does that not speak volumes? Editors aren't supposed to be righting great wrongs but that is exactly what is happening when we see pods of editors (cabals) tag-teaming and justifying what they do citing WP:IAR. What we end up with is WP:BRD_misuse and also malleable WP:MEDRS which are now being applied as needed, and yes, it's truly a sad state of affairs.
Based on your response that the arguments used in the appeal were rather unimpressive, I decided to add a few of the more incriminating diffs at AN. You were wise to say that my "continuing to assert bias from those who say you don't want to hear is only going to make people dig in even further." You will get no argument from me in that regard. In retrospect, it appears I stepped right in the middle of what looks very much like a skeptic's advocacy group when I tried to expand the Griffin BLP, not knowing it was intended to be and will remain a coatrack despite the attempts of several experienced BLP editors to correct it. The issues are numerous, some of which clearly reflect both a skeptic and political bias, , , . Following are more examples of the attacks against me, , despite the science, , the latter of which also demonstrates the parallels with some of the same editors at the Kombucha article that resulted in my aBan. Guy has never tried to hide the fact that he is a skeptic. He has received accolades from the Guerrilla Skeptic advocacy, the latter of which I actually have no problem with at all. I truly believe they serve a good purpose in their fight against quackery and snake-oil cures. I believe they are trying to do the right thing but as with any organization there will always be the "overzealous" members and it appears GS may have more than their share. In light of it all, I made the decision to not take the behavioral issues to ARBCOM but I am now having second thoughts. I'm not the one who won't drop the stick, Lankiveil. I'm the one who is getting beaten by it no matter where I go and I just want the beatings to stop.
The sad part is that none of the allegations made against me are true, not one, but when a lie is repeated enough times, it becomes the truth, and that is exactly what's happening. It's also what I believe is the root cause for Callan's bias against me. I am not convinced that he has actually taken the time to analyze content or the root cause of the arguments. Few admins actually have the time to do so, therefore it is not inconceivable to think they pick sides and take whatever they are told at face value. Another very useful tactic is the age old attack and discredit deployment as the diffs I just uploaded to AN will evidence. I've also provided a few here:
- was rewarded with this , .
- , , , , , , , and there are numerous others, none of which reflects an ounce of accuracy and are full of misinformation which is why diffs never accompany the allegations. I've AGF, wrote an essay about what I perceive some of the problems to be, WP:AVDUCK, was attacked for writing it, and the attacks continue. Some of the same editors are now preventing me from expanding and improving the essay I created and co-authored, and have made false accusations against me. What is fair about any of this, Lankiveil? My edits are reverted by some of the same tag team members who reverted me at Griffin and Kombucha. One would have to be blind to see it's clearly a matter of "gaming of the system", and fooling admins into believing I'm the bad guy like what just happened to me with Callan. Atsme 20:03, 4 July 2015 (UTC)