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RfC: Was Cārvāka a Hindu Nastika system?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Result: Yes, Carvaka was a Hindu nastika system. There doesn't seem to be any remaining dispute about this. The sourcing is clear (I've also been able to verify it for myself) and editors seem to be in agreement that what was initially contentious - the use of "Hindu" - is appropriate. Additional issues have been raised about whether is might be misleading for readers who have only a basic understanding about Hinduism. I don't think it's necessary to address those in detail, because this is not what was originally asked and the article appears stable at the moment. FWIW, though, I don't find the lead as it is currently written misleading.

Is it correct to say that Cārvāka was a "Hindu" nastika system? --Rahul (talk) 17:55, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

The lead mentions that "Cārvāka is classified as a heterodox Hindu (Nāstika) system. However, the sources provided here seems to be unreliable or misrepresented. "Radhakrishnan and Moore" and "Galvin flood" does not support the assertion. "M.h.Siddiqui" is of dubious reliability and also does not directly say that it was a "Hindu" movement. I think the word "hindu" should be replaced with Indian.

The second line of the same paragraph states that "It is characterized as a materialistic and atheistic school of thought. While this branch of Indian philosophy is today not considered to be part of the six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy, some describe it as an atheistic or materialistic philosophical movement within Hinduism." The sources seem to be misrepresented again. The Jain monk Haribhadra, for example is a primary source. The other mentioned source also does not back up the assertion. --Rahul (talk) 17:55, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

References

1. "Philosophical & Socio" by M.h.Siddiqui, p. 63|quote="Carvaka is classified as a "heterodox" (nastika) system", "part of the six orthodox schools of Hinduism"
2. Radhakrishnan and Moore, "Contents".
3. p. 224. Flood, Gavin (1996). An Introduction to Hinduism. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press.
4. Though this school of thought is not commonly considered as a part of six orthodox schools of Indian Philosophy, Haribhadra Suri, a Jain mendicant from c. seventh century, considers this school as a part of those six in his book ShaDdarshan Samucchaya. Potter, Karl H. (2007). The Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies: Buddhist philosophy from 350 to 600 A.D. Delhi: Motilal Banarsidass Publications. pp. 435–436. ISBN 978-81-208-1968-9.
5. Sarvepalli Radhakrishnan and Charles A. Moore. A Source book in Indian Philosophy. (Princeton University Press: 1957, Twelfth Princeton Paperback printing 1989) pp. 227–49. ISBN 0-691-01958-4.

(( Add the reflist so we can see what sources the numbers refer to. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 15:08, 30 January 2014 (UTC) ))

Despite these sources seems to be large in amount, if you start mining for the sources, you may find many more reliable sources, that would be considering Carvaka as Hindu. Bladesmulti (talk) 18:06, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

• Follow Radhakrishnan and Moore, and Flood. Sources must not be misrepresented. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:42, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

I'm a little surprised that this rfc was requested, and then edits made before even giving a chance for discussion. It would be sensible Rahul to revert and discuss this. FMMonty (talk) 14:56, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I have self-reverted for now. --Rahul (talk) 15:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

• In my view after reading the link provided by Bladesmulti in "Further Notes", Radakrishnan did NOT regard Lokayata/Cervaka as within orthodox Vedanta, but paved the way for that school by demolishing the old patterns of thought.Arildnordby (talk) 16:41, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Looking into that source provided in Further Notes this philosophical school of thought died out around 1000 AD (+-30%). However (this is a poor summary please read the source to see where I'm going, to help I have added in a few page numbers) parts of the philosophy passed into Jainism and Hinayana Buddhism, as well as into the philosophical schools of Samkhya and Vaisesika (p76). As Samkhya is one of the six orthodox schools of Hindu philosophy (is it just me who finds a religion where you can be an atheist fascinating) I'm be inclined to make a couple of arguments.

• Cārvāka was a nastika system (is there any argument over this?).
• Elements of Cārvāka survive in Hindu philosophy as Samkhya (Samkhya is epistemologically very close to the Cārvāka system (p89), however it is Astika), Cārvāka sources were cited by Samkhya thinkers as authoritative (p84), so it was an accepted "Hindu" school of philosophy, if not orthodox Hindu.

I need to do a lot more reading, however on the grounds that Hinduism is variably a religion, a set of Indian philosophies, and a set of practices / way of life I think it'd be hard to find something you couldn't call Hindu rather than the other way round. FMMonty (talk) 11:15, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

There is no argument over the fact that Carvaka was a nastika system. The argument is whether it is a "Hindu" nastika system or not. I also agree that elements of Carvaka might have survived in Hindu philosophy, Jain philosophy and/or Buddhist philosophy. I think we can mention that Carvaka is an Indian nastika system in the lead (instead of Hindu). Also, either, we can remove the "Hinduism" template, or add "Jainism" and "Buddhism" templates too, since they also have parts of Carvaka philosophy. (Jainism, Buddhism and many other non-abrahamic religions are atheistic) I am in favor of removing Hinduism template. --Rahul (talk) 14:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Carvaka shares nothing so special with buddhism or Jainism. It is a heterodox Hindu nastika system. There isn't anything to argue, as the picture is clear. Tomorrow someone will make a new religion which will share similarities with Carvaka so we will need more templates? No. Bladesmulti (talk) 15:14, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Bladesmulti, if it was clear from what we currently have to hand this discussion wouldn't be continuing. Rahul and you do not share the same definition of Hindu. You can keep repeating it is a heterodox Hindu nastika system as often as you'd like, but unless you understand why Rahul disagrees you're setting yourself up for an eternal editwar.

Rahul, do you have any specific reason to believe that Carvaka, with its deep roots in Hindu thought is not an unorthodox line of thinking within the body of Hindu philosophy? FMMonty (talk) 15:41, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

Carvaka, along with Ajivika, Jainism and Buddhism are some of the schools of thought which has their roots in Indian thought. Misplaced Pages relies on reliable sources, most of which clearly says that the above four philosophies are not part of Hinduism. We can write that Carvaka was an "Indian" hetrodox movement in the lead and discuss their precise relation with Hinduism, Buddhism, Jainism and other religions somewhere in the body of the article. --Rahul (talk) 18:24, 31 January 2014 (UTC)

No one is talking about Ajivika, Buddhism or Jainism. We already got reliable sources for confirming that Carvaka is classified as a heterodox Hindu (Nāstika) system, those I had posted on main page. They clearly confirm so. Hope you are not repeating yourself. Bladesmulti (talk) 04:36, 1 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, lets see if we can help with why it is hard to agree

• Reference 1, page 63, Indian philosophy that shows a strand of materialism in Hinduism, note doesn't directly call it Hindu philosophy. Haven't read outside of p63.

• Reference 2, Indian philosophy

• Reference 3, I don't have access to Flood without requesting it from the library.

@Bladesmulti, the reason that Rahul doesn't agree is that you've not made a clear enough argument from the sources. It is both a Hindu philosophy and an Indian philosophy, which makes you both right, yet you're both trying to tell the other that they are wrong! To a follower of Buddhism / Jainism, Carvaka would be seen through the lens of their beliefs as a philosophy rejecting the past and helping strengthen parts of their faith. To a Hindu it would be seen as part of the rich history of philosophies making up the Hindu body of thought.

That said, if you look at http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=SNYS_IlSXYsC&pg pages 67 and 82, http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=VYeAIM0d-KYC page 19, drawing from the more formal Halbfass, Wilhelm . (1988), India and Europe: An Essay in Understanding, State University of New York Press you'll find that we should probably keep Hindu (pretty much the same argument I made earlier but made by people who aren't me), but it would be good to mention it's importance to the other faiths. FMMonty (talk) 01:29, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

I am still in favor of keeping "Indian" philosophy. If possible, please have a look at the conversation here at Talk:Cārvāka#Carvaka.2C_a_Hindu_philosopher.3F. I have also left messages at the talk page of User:Mayasutra and User:Kenfyre for more opinion. --Rahul (talk) 08:44, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

As I said, according to the sources it's both, and it would not be in agreement with the sources to not include both Indian and Hindu. I would suggest Carvaka was an Indian philosophy that is usually classified as a non orthodox, atheist Hindu philosophy. Using the terms heterodox or nastika are unnecessarily confusing. FMMonty (talk) 08:56, 2 February 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, are we on the same page on what we mean by Hinduism? The ancient texts, which describe Carvaka, don't use the word Hindu. Because the word have not come into use then. Carvaka, if described as Hindu anywhere, are done so by some modern scholars. Originally, Hindu was used to describe all the people living east of the Indus. Later, it came to refer to the religion/set of philosophies. If we describe Hinduism as the set of all philosophies originating in India, it would include Jainism, Buddhism and Sikhism along with Carvaka. As some have mentioned, Carvaka, Buddhism and Jainism were categorised as Nastika philosophies, philosophies that were contrary to Vedic principles. Vedic religion was much different from modern Hinduism. I propose that if Carvaka has been called a Hindu philosophy, it should be explicitly mentioned by whom. But, it should be not be in the introductory sections. Kenfyre (talk) 03:31, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

No, I don't disagree with those sources. But, I am opposed to putting them in the introductory section. The Oxford Dictionary defines Hindusim as, "a major religious and cultural tradition of South Asia, which developed from Vedic religion". Thus, layperson arriving via a search will be left confused by such an introduction, if he is not aware of the intricacies of Hinduism. Kenfyre (talk) 17:12, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm glad we're all on the same page with the sources. Now all we need to do is agree the wording. I'm sorry, I'm not sure what you think people will find confusing, so I can't suggest some changes. What do you think would be confusing? FMMonty (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

If the word "Hindu", if means a follower of the religion of "Hinduism", then Charvaka cannot be described as a "Hindu". The authoritative books on Hinduism such as flood and Dongier does not mention Charvaka as hetrodox Hinduism. However, the word is ambiguous. For example, according to the constitution of India the followers of Hinduism, Jainism, Buddhism, Sikhism etc. are collectively called as Hindu. This might be the reason that Indian authors characterize charvaka as a Hindu movement, because the word "Hindu", in this sense is synonymous to the word "Indian". --Rahul (talk) 18:49, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Ah, I see your point. However I can't imagine anyone who doesn't have an interest in philosophy coming onto the page of a 1000 year old philosophy, that'd be a little like accidently stumbling onto Heraclitus. Actually Heraclitus is a good example simply because he wasn't considered to be within a school of thought at the time, however later followers were classified as Heracliteans, and eventually (somewhat changed) Stoics. I'm not convinced that avoiding the statement that these days it is usually classified as a Hindu philosophy is necessary, however I'd like to work with you guys on how that could best be worded. What we don't want is to give the idea that it is a Hindu religious sect, as that would be way off base. FMMonty (talk) 19:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

FMMonty, the other way someone might arrive at Talk:Cārvāka is via AN/I.  :-)   The discussion seems to have trailed off, but without decisions being finalized into mainspace. Currently the article is in the somewhat-confusing state of having the Hindu-infoboxen up top, as preferred by Bladesmulti, and the "Indian" keyword in the first sentence, as preferred by Rahul. We might end up with Sophists infoboxen, if we aren't careful! Can you please suggest a compromise-wording, that covers what you think the sources are telling us here? I had never heard of Cārvāka before, and am not versed in either the ancient or the modern languages that describe it best, plus as Rahul says the original primaries are lost, so I have little to put forward in the way of prose-suggestions of my own at the moment. But if you are willing, please put forward some suggested wordings, either one at a time or several in a bunch, and we'll see what folks think is closest to the sources. Thanks for improving wikipedia, please drop a note on my talkpage if you reply, and I don't respond promptly. p.s. Suggest making an arbitrary section break since this is getting pretty long in the tooth. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 00:06, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Further notes

Radhakrishnan viewed Carvaka as orthodox vedantin. Bladesmulti (talk) 10:24, 24 January 2014 (UTC)

References

1. James Thrower. The Alternative Tradition: Religion and the Rejection of Religion in the Ancient World]. Walter de Gruyter. p. 54. ISBN 9789027979971. {{cite book}}: Check |url= value (help)

Haribhadra and Carvaka

Ogress: I checked Karl Potter, and there is no mention at all of "Haribhadra, from circa the seventh century, considers Carvaka school as a part of six orthodox schools of Hinduism in his book, Shaddarsana-samuccaya", on pages 435-436 or anywhere else. I have removed it from the lead, though you added it here. It needs a source, as this fringe claim is simply very different than the widely accepted scholarly view on Carvakas. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:05, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Ogress: I have also reverted several of your Sarvasiddhanta Samgraha and Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha edits because it does not match what the source states, but left two instances of change where your and 59.88.255.116's corrections matched the source. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 16:47, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

@Ms Sarah Welch: I didn't add those sources, I took one giant REF tag full of stuff and split it into individual REFs, placing statements from that tag directly into the text. I attest to no truth of the matter and I agree. I literally just separated it into separate tags and/or put sentences onto the page so problematic things like this could be found. Thank you. As for the Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha, is there some reason we aren't citing onto the quote but rather putting the REF before it? That seems like a weird decision? I changed the text to Sarvadarśanasaṃgraha for technical reasons but I erred in changing the content of that quote: my apologies for that oversight. I do a lot of wikignome and errors do happen. Ogress _smash! 17:26, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Cārvāka

While the consensus in the original discussion was that the Cārvāka philosophy, unlike Buddhism, Jainism and Ajivikism, was a nastika Hindu philosophy, it has been discovered recently that User:Bladesmulti was a sockpuppet of a master of masters puppeteer, OccultZone. OZ had 225000+ edits on his main account alone and staggering thousands more on puppets (one alone had 5000) as well as 16,000 edits alone as Bladesmulti. It seems he did reliable work but also gamed the living heck out of the system, especially on Indian-related issues. Should we reexamine that evidence to check if in general it appears to support the conclusion? Ogress _smash! 20:08, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

@Ogress: I was not part of the RFC discussion. Could you explain your concern in the light of at least five reliable sources cited in the article, that state "Carvaka to be a heterodox Hindu philosophy"? Several of them have embedded quotes. If you have equivalent reliable sources that state something different, please add it with those sources. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:26, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

I do not understand the level of hostility you have aimed at me on this and other pages today. In the light of a current conflict on this and another page - which one participant wanted me to get involved in, assuming I stood for their position-, I wanted to examine those edits and the conclusion of the vote. I did not edit the page and change what it already says about its Hindu/non-Hindu status; I simply am aware Bladesmulti gamed the heck out of Misplaced Pages votes. I have not yet examined the material.

As I stated earlier, I routinely examine quotes to check that they actually say what they claim or that they exist. You could simply have stated that "five reliable sources cited in the article state that Carvaka is a heterodox Hindu philosophy".

If you want to change the name of the page, run a vote. In the meantime, the fact that I standardised the page's spelling of Carvaka is not cause for a revert of my work on both pages. If you don't like it, discuss changing the name. I didn't change any quotes or titles. There's no cause for you to do that. Ogress _smash! 23:55, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Cārvāka and Carvaka

Both spellings are in use in reliable sources (see, for example, KK Chakrabarti (1995), Definition and Induction: A Historical and Comparative Study, University of Hawaii Press, ISBN 978-0824816582, page 141). Lets keep both spellings in the article. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 23:30, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Why? Ogress _smash! 23:56, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Because both spellings are in use in reliable sources. Why pick one spelling, why pick a side? Is there a wikipedia policy or guideline page that requires this? I am fine with either spelling, and have no particular preference for the title being Cārvāka or Carvaka. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:09, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Cārvāka is the vṛddhi or patronymic form of Carvaka (i.e., Cārvāka can mean "of or related to or descending from Carvaka"), just as Vāsudeva is the vṛddhi form of Vasudeva. The latter (Carvaka), unfortunately, is also the diacritic-free form. So we must be careful in a given instance *both* whether that source is using the "ancestor" or "descendent" form, and whether that source is using IAST/marked-up spellings at all. Shreevatsa (talk) 14:42, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

The editor has a point. Also, who is picking a side? I'm just organising the spelling. What "side"? Is there some war going on? I'm trying to prevent confusion. Ogress _smash! 15:55, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Carvaka not part of Hinduism

Carvaka is not part of Hinduism. This is clear from referring to one of the most celebrated studies of Carvaka/Lokayata philosophy by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya, Lokayata: A Study in Ancient Indian Materialism. Bladesmulti was a disingenuous editor, a sockpuppet and a POV pusher. The decision arrived at on the basis of statements made by him (and perhaps by his socks) above, about Carvaka being a heterodox Hindu philosophy, is hence no longer valid. Concerned editors/reviewers may verify my claim by consulting Chattopadhyay's book mentioned above. -Mohanbhan (talk) 19:07, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya is an interesting but dated Marxist-POV scholar. Minority views can be included in this article, but not by suppressing the majority scholarly view. The article has multiple recent reliable sources, with embedded quotes, that state Carvaka is a Hindu philosophy. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: Please identify the page number where Chattopadhyaya states "Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The entire book Sarah Welch is a thesis which shows that Carvaka was a materialist school of philosophy in ancient India which challenged Brahminical orthodoxy (much like the materialist school of Epicureanism was a challenge to Christianity.) The word Hinduism FYI has not been used in 1.the Vedas 2. the Upanishads 3. the Puranas 4. the Brahmanas 5. the epics Ramayana and Mahabharata 6. the Bhagavad Gita... in none of the Hindu texts until the 19th century. The first mention of the word "Hindooism" is by the social reformer Ram Mohun Roy in 1816 (See David Lorenzen's "Who Invented Hinduism"), and Hinduism itself as a collection of sects as we know it today is a late 19th century development. So you will not come across simple textbook sentences like "Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy" but read at least the first chapter of Debiprasad Chattopadhyay and it will be clear to you why Carvaka is not part of Hindu philosophy. And it is not fair to make flippant comments like Marxist-POV dated etc when the only two book-length studies of Carvaka philosophy are by Debiprasad Chattopadhyay and Ramkrishna Bhattacharya. And both of them come to the same conclusion: that Carvaka was a materialist philosophy which was completely antagonistic to the Vedas and the Upanishads. -Mohanbhan (talk) 01:31, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I will ignore your discursive forum-like lecture and your opinions. You are doing original research when you derive new conclusions such as "Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy" after "reading this or that chapter" of a book by Debiprasad Chattopadhyay, Ramkrishna Bhattacharya or someone else.

Policy: "Misplaced Pages articles must not contain original research. This includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to reach or imply a conclusion not stated by the sources. To demonstrate that you are not adding OR, you must be able to cite reliable, published sources that are directly related to the topic of the article, and directly support the material being presented."

You must find and present a source, or a specific page from the published Debiprasad Chattopadhyay book where he reaches or implies the conclusion "Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:59, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

You are lecturing me Sarah Welch without reading the book I have cited. The book clearly shows that Carvaka philosophy refuted the claims made in the Vedas and challenged Vedic authority. The central texts of Hinduism are the Vedas and any philosophy which is completely antagonistic to the Vedas can't be part of Hinduism. This is not original research, this is how you reason to categorize something as belonging to one class or the other. (This is the reasoning used to class almost all the scriptures, texts, sects and philosophies as part of Hinduism as the word "Hinduism" itself was not used until 19th century.) The first chapter of Chattopadhyaya's book does make it very clear that Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy.

Here is an excerpt from the book which implies that Carvaka is not a Hindu philosophy: "To the Vedantist sruti or revelation was the highest authority. Arguments alone could not prove any thesis; these had validity only as subservient to sruti. Therefore, for a Vedantist, the surest proof for a statement is some quotation from the Upanisadic texts. But this was exactly the opposite of the Lokayatika attitude. Even on Madhava's own admission, the Lokayatikas looked at the sruti as but fabrications of the lazy cheats." (p.22) -Mohanbhan (talk) 05:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Hinduism is not Vedanta. You're taking a source that might say that Charvaka was against Vedanta/Upanishads, and applying original research to conclude that it is therefore not part of Hinduism. For example, when you say that "The central texts of Hinduism are the Vedas and any philosophy which is completely antagonistic to the Vedas can't be part of Hinduism", this is an argument of your own, not something from a reliable source. Shreevatsa (talk) 08:42, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: That excerpt does not reach or imply the conclusion, "Carvaka was not a Hindu philosophy". Your conclusion is OR. Your excerpt is unacceptable, your lecturing tendentious. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:21, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@Shreevatsa: Indeed. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:48, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

The burden of proof is on you Sarah Welch. Please show me which book on Carvaka (and don't quote from books on Hinduism) says Carvaka is a school of Hindu philosophy. Books on Astika philosophy (by people like S. Radhakrishnan) are written by Idealists, and books on Carvaka are written by Materialists (Marxists/dialectical materialists). Idealists cannot decide what Carvaka is and call it a subsidiary rebel sect of their religion. Their opinions hold no water. The materialists' definition of their materialism is what matters and none of the Carvaka philosophers like Brihaspati, or its modern dialectical materialist interlocutors like Chattopadhyay and Bhattacharya, call Carvaka a Hindu philosophy. If you impose a Hindu identity on Carvaka based on Hindu sources you would be adopting a fascist and hegemonic approach. This is a serious matter. This affects the ethos of the whole of wikipedia and the non-fascist democratic spirit of the internet. -Mohanbhan (talk) 13:21, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: Scholarly secondary and tertiary sources such as recent books on Hinduism, and peer reviewed publications are reliable sources for wikipedia. The article already meets the "burden of proof", it has multiple RS that state, "Carvaka is a Hindu philosophy". RS doesn't mean "the Chattopadhyay book you, @Mohanbhan, likes".

As I noted earlier, if you find any reliable source that verifiably concludes, "Carvaka was not a Hindu philosophy", we can include that minority opinion somewhere in this article. So far you have only offered OR, tendentious lectures, and in your latest reply a confusing spiel about "fascist and hegemonic approach". Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 15:36, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

RS, in this case, would be books written by Materialists for the reasons stated above. You have reduced my argument to "RS means a book that I like." What can I say to this? Radhakrishnan and Moore's book is a survey of Indian philosophy, for an article like this one has to look at specialist works on Carvaka philosophy. -Mohanbhan (talk) 15:57, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Every Hindu believes that Vedas are supreme and that anyone who denies Vedas are not Hindus. Charvaka simply denies Vedas and Hindu orthodoxy. So how can it be considered as a Atheistic school of Hinduism. The term "Hindu" is a recent origin. It did not existed at the timne of Philospher Charavaka. Charvaka never claimed himself to be a Hindu just like Buddha never claimed to be an Avatar of Vishnu. So on what basis you can claim a philosophy which never claimed himself to be a Hindu and denied their orthodox medthods. Mohanbhan I agree with your thoughts. Terabar (talk) 00:18, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of what is happening on the talk page, Terabar, it is not appropriate to continue an edit war, and especially not to mark it as a minor edit. Ogress _smash! 00:29, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Hinduism and Vedic religion are different things, if you want to keep sidebar of Hinduism then delete symbol of "om" from it, because it is symbol of "Vedic religion" not Hinduism. There is no mention of word "Hindu" in Vedas. Hindu is very recent geographic term. Or simple create new sidebar of "Indian religions" or "Indian philosophies" and keep all religions(theist+atheist) in it. We can call it as "part of series of Indian philosophies". --Human3015 knock knock • 00:43, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@Terabar: I respect your right to believe in whatever you want – however profound or absurd it might be, but content in Misplaced Pages is based on reliable verifiable sources. Read the discussion above, respond constructively with pages numbers and reliable sources. Please do not delete the template from the article, because the template is supported by the content and reliable sources cited therein, and because this issue is being actively discussed. Your edit was disruptive. Please do not engage in such behavior. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:48, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch: This is from the Carvaka article. "Cārvākas rejected religious conceptions of Hindus, Buddhists and Jains, such as those of the afterlife, reincarnation, samsara, karma and religious rites. They were critical of the Vedas, as well as Buddhist scriptures.Source: name=Richard Hayes (2000), The Question of Doctrinalism in the Buddhist Epistemologists, in Philosophy of Religion: Indian Philosophy (Editor:Roy Perrett), Routledge, ISBN 978-0815336112, pages 187-212" Now what do you say to this, if the Carvakas had rejected Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religions how can they be identified as belonging to Hindu philosophy? What carries greater weight? What the Carvakas themselves claimed or what some 20th century non-materialist Hindu scholars, privileging the Hindu POV, say about them? -Mohanbhan (talk) 08:27, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: This, as you note, is already in the article. I checked the source again, and clarified the language. A sub-school can reject traditions, concepts and/or beliefs, and still be included under the same umbrella concept. A heterodox school of any philosophy/religion, by definition, does not conform with orthodox standards or beliefs - yet is included in the study of that philosophy/religion. Just a reminder: Misplaced Pages articles are not RS, this talk page is not a forum, and you need to provide an "external", reliable source that verifies the content you wish to add. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 12:07, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Proposal to Change the title of article to Lokayata

I don't know what "sub-school" you are talking about. I have already provided RS: Chattopadhyay's Lokayata. This is what some of the world's great thinkers had to say about the book:

• Joseph Needham, best known for his multi-volume Science and Civilisation in China, wrote to the author: “Your book will have a truly treasured place on my shelves. It is truly extraordinary that we should have approached ancient Chinese and ancient Indian civilisations with such similar results....”
• Louis Renou, the then doyen of French Indologists, said: “The book is of definite value and deserves to be carefully studied by Indologists and sociologists.”
• George Thomson, Professor of Greek, University of Birmingham, UK, spoke of it as “the work of a creative Marxist who knows and loves his subject.”
• Walter Ruben was of the opinion that Chattopadhyaya’s “books are indicative of a new period of Indian investigation of Indian philosophy.” Source: Fifty Years of Lokayata by Ramakrishna Bhattacharya What can I do if you won't look at it?

Also, I think the title of this article has to be changed to "Lokayata", because that is what they called themselves and what it was known as. Carvaka was the name given to it by outsiders and critics. -Mohanbhan (talk) 12:50, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

I oppose your title change proposal. Read WP:TITLE. The policy is, "Generally, article titles are based on what the subject is called in reliable sources." The numerous reliable sources cited in this article confirm that the term Carvaka is the predominant usage. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 14:56, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

The "numerous reliable sources" also mention the word Lokayata, if you look at them. But it is Lokayata which is the popular and more acceptable term. Google search for Lokayata yields 1,01,000 hits while for Carvaka it is only 48,300.

These are the titles of book-length studies on Lokayata philosophy which use Lokayata as the title:

1. Lokayata: A Study in Ancient Indian Materialism by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya
2. Studies in Carvaka/Lokayata by Ramakrishna Bhattacharya
3. The Philosophy of Lokayata by Bijayananda Kar
4. Athena's Loom: A Collection of Modern Lokayata Sutras by Wade Rawluk
5. Athena's Loom: A Modern Lokayata Tantra by Wade Rawluk
6. Lokayata, a critical study: Indian spiritualism reaffirmed (Sri Garib Das oriental series) by Shubhada A Joshi
7. Carvaka/Lokayata: An Anthology of Source Materials and Some Recent Studies by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya

5 Books use Lokayata as their title while 2 use both Carvaka and Lokayata. A total of 7 books use the word Lokayata as title.

These are the titles of book-length studies on Lokayata philosophy which use Carvaka as the title:

1. Studies in Carvaka/Lokayata by Ramakrishna Bhattacharya
2. Carvaka/Lokayata: An Anthology of Source Materials and Some Recent Studies by Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya
3. Uniqueness of Carvaka Philosophy in Indian Traditional Thought by Heera Bhupendra
4. Scepticism In Indian Thought : Carvaka Philosophy Reexamined by Latika Chattopadhyaya
5. Cärväka by Russell Jesse

3 books use Carvaka as the title while 2 books use both Carvaka and Lokayata as the title. A total of 5 books use Carvaka as title.

It is very clear which is the more popular word, both among the public and in the academia. So following WP:TITLE the article has to be retitled Lokayata. -Mohanbhan (talk) 16:56, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: You claim, "Google search for Lokayata yields 101,000 hits". But this search includes hits irrelevant to the ancient school of materialism in India. Vast majority of the search hits include shop and galleries with the same name, such as 1, 2 and others.

Your list of books is incomplete. Here are a few I can remember having come across some while ago, 1. Carvaka Darsana Ki Sástriya Samiksa (a Critical Study); 2. Carvaka: Barhaspatya Sutras, Jayarasi Bhata, Astika; 3. The Tale of Carvaka: The Hindu Hedonist-philosopher; 4. Carvaka, Jaina, Buddha; 6. Carvaka Philosophy Truth Inquirer; and many more. Your list also ignores numerous scholarly books and peer reviewed journal articles that include Carvakas, as a chapter or section, in their scope. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Well I have restricted myself to books in English, if you start adding books in non-English languages then the list would be long and unverifiable. Also, I have only included scholarly studies of Lokayata philosophy. "The Tale of Carvaka: The Hindu Hedonist-philosopher" is not a scholarly work but a fictional (or semi-fictional) story of Carvaka, the character who appears in the Mahabharata. But yes the hits on Google books and Google scholar are more for Carvaka than for Lokayata, so I will not pursue the matter any further. -Mohanbhan (talk) 19:20, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

There is also a book in Bengali titled 'Lokayata Debiprasad' which includes the writings of Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya and also other contributors (this is not the same book as the english Lokayata): http://www.gettextbooks.com/isbn/9788185479323

Tentative Support. The best chronicler of this philosophy has been Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya. He has written the book Lokayata (which has been praised and endorsed by many international scholars of world wide reputation including Joseph Needham, Louis Renou and others). In explaining the word Lokayata, Chattopadhyaya refers to a sanskrit saying: Lokesu ayata Lokayata--it was called Lokayata because it was prevalent among the people. Charvaka, argues Chattopadhyaya, was a term coined by the opponents of these philosophers. The word Charvaka seems to be derived from the root word charva meaning to chew. That is, that according to the opponents of these philosophers the Lokayata philosophers were hedonists. Additionally, Lokayata was always categorized as a Nastika philosophy along with Jainism and Buddhism throughout the history of Indian philosophy. However, i would also suggest that we could change the title to 'Charvaka/Lokayata'. But if we have to choose only one word, i would go with Lokayata. Soham321 (talk) 17:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Oppose: as per WP:COMMONNAME, most of people know him by name Carvaka. Article mentions that his original name is "Lokayata", also Lokayata redirects here and I think that much importance is enough for name Lokayata. --Human3015 knock knock • 19:17, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

• Comment Both names are obviously acceptable, and one can selectively cite sources to support either, but overall Cārvāka appears to be the more commonly used name in academic literature. For example see this bibliography of 125 secondary sources on the subject (an online version/update of The Encyclopedia of Indian Philosophies, vol I), in which Cārvāka is used almost thrice as often as Lokāyata in the titles (43 vs 15 by my count using page-search). Btw, if editors cannot agree, a formal WP:RM should be opened instead of voting "support" and "oppose" as part of a discussion. Abecedare (talk) 19:51, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya as a source for this article

Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya's has been an important, interesting and useful source on Carvakas/Lokayata, particularly his 1959 book. He is a dated source though, and per the critical review of Dale Riepe, Chattopadhyaya wrote with a Marxist-perspective and his book highlight his communist ideological leanings. Chattopadhyaya published his book 50+ years ago with People's Publishing House, a small publisher in India that is not known for having an editorial process. It is a primary source in many parts, and caution is necessary given Misplaced Pages's policy on primary sources. His views if and where included must be checked and balanced out with recent scholarly publications. Jessica Frazier's chapter published in 2014 by Oxford University Press, Ramkrishna Bhattacharya's recent books on Carvakas, and the like are examples of good recent sources. It is worth noting that Ramkrishna Bhattacharya, the prolific modern writer on Carvakas sparingly cites Chattopadhyaya as his source, and cites other scholars more frequently.

Debiprasad Chattopadhyaya, in 1969, published a book titled, "Hindu Atheism" through a Calcutta publisher, which included Carvaka/Lokayata as the thematic example in it (check page 378, second last line of Stephen Bullivant and Michael Ruse (2014), The Oxford Handbook of Atheism, ISBN 978-0199644650). This book is out of print and now rare. Chattopadhyaya in 1973 traced what he called, "ancient Hindu materialist thought" (Carvaka) to Chandogya and Brihadaranyaka Upanishads (check page 156 of Ramkrishna Bhattacharya (2011), Studies on the Carvaka/Lokayata, ISBN 978-0857284334).

Chattopadhyaya is known for some good pioneering work, but also for strange writings. For example, Ramkrishna Bhattacharya writes, Chattopadhyaya did not deny Ajita Kesakambali was a materialist, but Chattopadhyaya chose to emphasize that "Ajita was no less a philosopher of futility and moral collapse than the Buddha, Mahavira, Purana ..."(check page 27 of Ramkrishna Bhattacharya (2011), Studies on the Carvaka/Lokayata). Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 00:53, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I am not really worried about the publisher of Chattopadhayaya's work, since its notability is well established by the numerous secondary citations. But you are right that while Chattopadhayaya did yeoman work in studying the materialist schools and bringing them to prominence in 1950s-60s, his work is dated and sometimes blinkered by his political ideology. See Gerald Larson's write-up on Chattopadhyaya for example (pages 63-66). Best to use him with care, and in conjunction with more recent scholarship, such as Bhattacharya that you already mentioned or others listed here. Abecedare (talk) 01:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Abecedare: Indeed. Yours is a useful link to Karl Potter's bibliography. I will add it to this article's external links section. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:21, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The 1969 book is titled 'Indian Atheism' and not 'Hindu Atheism'. Chattopadhyaya continued to write on the Charvaka/Lokayata philosophy into the 1990s. In his books and articles, Dale Riepe praises Chattopadhyay's writings on Indian philosophy. Your claim that Dale Riepe is criticizing Chattopadhyaya only undermines your credibility here. Also, tearing stray sentences out of context just so that you can slam Chattopadhyaya are clearly inappropriate. See the book 'History of Science and Technology' volume 2 for for his detailed analysis of Ajita Kesakambli. Soham321 (talk) 04:18, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

And Chattopadhyay's book 'Indian Atheism' does not have a single chapter about the Charvaka/Lokayata philosophers. He writes about Sankhya Atheism, Nyaya-Vasiesika Atheism, Mimansa Atheism, Atheism of the Buddha, Mahyayana and Hinayana Buddhism, and Jain Atheism. He also talks a bit about the Advaita Vedants should not be regarded as theism since it denies the existence of a personal god who is the creator and moral governor of the world. Sara Welch's claim that Chattopadhyaya talks of the Lokayata/Charvaka in his book (which she has wrongly spelled) only goes to undermine her credibility here. It is true that Chattopadhyaya had leftist views when it came to politics, but so did Bertrand Russell. So did many people of their generation. Sara Welch seems to have a very strong bias and prejudice against Chattopadhyaya. This was first seen in the talk page on Adi Shankara where she was refusing to accept him as a source on Indian philosophy and demanded that i give references to peer reviewed philosophical material which accepts him as an authority. I have done so on the Adi Shankara talk page.Soham321 (talk) 05:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Tagging and edits by User:Mohanbhan

@Mohanbhan: You tagged "The origins of Cārvāka can be traced to the Rigveda" for citation needed here. The source is clearly provided at the end of that sentence. I checked, and it is in the first paragraph of the referenced Radhakrishnan's book on page 227. The chapter is titled Carvaka, and the second sentence reads, "Its origin can be traced as far back as the Rg veda...". Concerns? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 01:37, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch, I had removed original research in which dictionary meanings were provided to explain the meaning of Carvaka and Lokayata. OR as you know very well is not acceptable. When I had cited the reason for removal with a link to WP:NOR, that is when my deletion was in accordance with wiki policy, you should not have reverted those. You are clearly indulging in disruptive edits and edit-warring and then going on the offensive by asking me not to edit war. This is not done. You should have discussed the changes on the talk page before resorting to disruptive edits. I had deleted nothing from the article except repetitions and had just reordered content to elucidate the meaning of Carvaka philosophy. Your only point seems to be to show that it is part of Hinduism and that it is not antagonistic to the Vedas. It is clear to me that you are pushing a POV and spoiling the article. Please don't do it. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: Once again, just like Radhakrishnan's book above on Rig Veda, you are refusing to check Natalia Isaeva's book (Shankara and Indian Philosophy, 1993, SUNY Press, ISBN 978-0791412817) which is referenced at the end of the paragraph. On page 27, footnote 18, she explains the etymological origin of Carvaka as sweet talker, and Lokayata as worldly. But you deleted it again. I am puzzled. I will give you some time to explain you action or concern, before I reinstate that well sourced content. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Natalia Isaeva's book is on Shankara who was clearly antagonistic to Carvaka philosophy; so the etymology of Carvaka as sweet talkers is not "well sourced content". As I said, for an article on Carvaka we have rely on expert studies on the subject and Chattopadhyaya, a renowned expert, offers a different etymology for Carvaka. That could be added to the article. -Mohanbhan (talk) 02:32, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: That is not a reasonable explanation. "The book @Mohanbhan likes" is not Misplaced Pages's definition of RS. Natalia Isaeva's book is a reliable scholarly source. FWIW, you mentioned Bhattacharya's book on this talk page as a source for Carvaka/Lokayata. Have you read it? On pages 166-167, it discusses etymology of Carvaka and cites Monier Williams? Isaeva and Bhattacharya books both support the paragraph you deleted more than once. @Abecedare: your thoughts? Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 02:47, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Again quoting selectively in order to deceive the community. Here is the link to the said page. Is Bhattacharya supporting that etymology? He is discussing many etymologies, and he is calling this particular derivation "an irregular construction" and that it is "definitely not known whether the word caru is to be taken as an adjective (meaning agreeable, pleasant, etc) or as a noun (which is another name of Brihaspati)" Why would you add such a problematic derivation? And why would you select only this from among the many derivations that he is discussing? It is clear to me that you are pushing a POV. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: If there are more than one side, don't call it problematic and delete it. Don't pick and choose content you like or don't like. Don't take sides. Just summarize all the sides. That is NPOV policy of Misplaced Pages. I have added a summary from Bhattacharya. If you have concerns, discuss it on this talk page before deleting sources and sourced content. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:28, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I am sorry you jumped the gun and added that problematic etymology while we were still discussing it. You are picking and choosing from many etymologies, not me. You are violating the NPOV, not me. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:34, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

The point is you have not added "a summary from Bhattacharya", it is evident from the above link. You have picked and added a particular (problematic) etymology to push a POV. That is not OK. -Mohanbhan (talk) 03:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: in your latest revert here, where you deleted, "Bhattacharya notes that the word Carvaka is of irregular construction, as cara as an adjective means "agreeable, pleasant", but as a noun is another name of Brihaspati, and both derivations are plausible." (Bhattacharya (2011), page 166). Please explain your concern. Alternatively, suggest a different etymological summary from Bhattacharya. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 03:41, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch: My concern is clearly stated above. It is a problematic etymology and doesn't clarify anything. Bhattacharya also states, "All the derivations proposed are plausible in so far as the formation of the word is admitted to be irregular." Carvaka, as I have already stated, is not a word that the Lokayatas gave themselves; it is derogatory label given to them by their opponents. This is stated in Chattopadhyaya which you, for some strange reason, call a primary source. It is a secondary source and the chief source of reference for the IEP article on Lokayata/Carvaka. This article too mentions the accepted etymology, "Literally, "Lokāyata" means philosophy of the people." Etymology is quoted to clarify and extend the meaning of a concept, not to distort it. May I know your reasons for wanting to add a problematic etymology? -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:06, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Mohanbhan: You ask, "May I know your reasons for wanting to add a problematic etymology?" Reasons: Carvaka etymology is discussed in recent scholarly sources, and this is an article on Carvaka. An encyclopedia tries to comprehensively presents information, it does not avoid problematic perspectives about the topic. As the veteran contributor and admin @Abecedare above on this talk page, and I have earlier noted, "Chattopadhyaya work is dated and sometimes blinkered by his political ideology." This article should include, but not exclusively present Chattopadhyaya's dated POV. Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 04:29, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Sarah Welch: You are deliberately distorting Chattopadhayay's standing and stature as an expert of Lokayata philosophy to suit your purposes. His work is not "dated", Bhattacharya considers him the greatest authority on the subject. You disregard him as "strange" and problematic and try to include an etymology that Bhattacharya himself concedes is not definitive. You have avoided Chattopadhyaya because he offers what you think are problematic perspectives on the topic; if that is your rationale for excluding content why do want to add an etymology which is decidedly problematic? Either you include all "problematic" content or you include none--you cannot be selective about including problematic content. -Mohanbhan (talk) 04:52, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Agree completely with Mohanbhan. Sarah Welch comes across as a Vedantin based on my interaction with her on the talk page of Adi Shankara. I am disturbed by her repeated denunciation of Chattopadhyaya as an authority despite my showing her peer reviewed philosophical material which accepts him as an authority. In my opinion people who have a strong affiliation with the Vedanta philosophy do not have a neutral point of view when it comes to the Lokayata/Charvaka philosophy and for this reason should refrain from editing this page. Soham321 (talk) 05:12, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

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