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view · edit Frequently asked questions Some common points of argument are addressed in the FAQ below, which represents the consensus of editors here. Please remember that this page is only for discussing Misplaced Pages's encyclopedia article about Homeopathy. To view an explanation to the answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the article? (Yes.) A1: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy must be included in the article. The articles on Misplaced Pages include information from all significant points of view. This is summarized in the policy pages which can be accessed from the Neutral point of view policy. This article strives to conform to Misplaced Pages policies, which dictate that a substantial fraction of articles in fringe areas be devoted to mainstream views of those topics. Q2: Should material critical of homeopathy be in the lead? (Yes.) A2: Yes. Material critical of homeopathy belongs in the lead section. The lead must contain a summary of all the material in the article, including the critical material. This is described further in the Lead section guideline. Q3: Is the negative material in the article NPOV? (Yes.) A3: Yes. Including negative material is part of achieving a neutral article. A neutral point of view does not necessarily equate to a sympathetic point of view. Neutrality is achieved by including all points of view – both positive and negative – in rough proportion to their prominence. Q4: Does Misplaced Pages consider homeopathy a fringe theory? (Yes.) A4: Yes. Homeopathy is described as a fringe medical system in sources reliable to make the distinction. This is defined by the Fringe theories guideline, which explains: We use the term fringe theory in a very broad sense to describe ideas that depart significantly from the prevailing or mainstream view in its particular field of study. Since the collective weight of peer-reviewed studies does not support the efficacy of homeopathy, it departs significantly enough from the mainstream view of science to be considered a fringe theory. References Jonas, WB; Ives, JA (February 2008). "Should we explore the clinical utility of hormesis". Human & Experimental Toxicology. 27 (2): 123–127. PMID 18480136. Q5: Should studies that show that homeopathy does not work go into the article? (Yes.) A5: Yes. Studies that show that homeopathy does not work are part of a full treatment of the topic and should go into the article. Misplaced Pages is not the place to right great wrongs. Non-experts have suggested that all the studies that show homeopathy does not work are faulty studies and are biased, but this has not been borne out by the mainstream scientific community. Q6: Should another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" be created? (No.) A6: No. Another article called "Criticism of homeopathy" should not be created. 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Homeopathy was one of the Natural sciences good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.

Article milestones Date Process Result September 14, 2006 Good article nominee Not listed September 27, 2007 Good article nominee Listed October 8, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 13, 2007 Good article reassessment Delisted October 19, 2007 Peer review Reviewed October 25, 2007 Good article nominee Listed February 9, 2008 Peer review Reviewed March 2, 2009 Peer review Reviewed April 4, 2009 Featured article candidate Not promoted November 2, 2012 Good article reassessment Delisted Current status: Delisted good article

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History

I think the present article is weak in the area of the history of homeopathy and could be improved by (at the least) including some reference to Wilhelm Heinrich Schüßler and the debates and evolution of ideas over more than a century. I'm not part of some "Schussler fan club" but that stream of homeopathy (a smallish set of Biochemic tissue salts and perhaps 3X to 12X dilution) was a significant part of the history in the mid-late 20th Century. There is a risk that, without the historical context, the article may give readers the impression the homeopathy is essentially dilution-to-the-point-of-nothing-left and devoid of debates and "splinter groups" with quite a few differences between them.

At the minimum, the paragraph beginning "Not all homeopaths advocate high dilutions" could do with pointing out that it is not just the degree of dilution that has been a point of difference but the list of which substances to use, along with quite significant approaches to what homeopathy is. Maitchy (talk) 00:49, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Maitchy, just a reminder - you're more likely to get a quick response if you list new topics at the end of the page instead of in the middle amongst already settled discussions.

This starts to get into the current phenomenon of labeling non-homeopathic preparations as homeopathic, simply on account of how they were made. There are a variety of products on the market which list "1X" or "2X" dilutions of an active ingredient and claim that it is homeopathic. This is just normal pharmacology at that dilution and appears to be nothing more than an attempt to skirt regulation. Unfortunately, it also leads to consumers assessing that homeopathy actually works simply on account of loose labeling laws. What must be recognized is that succussion of a concentrated solution is no more expected to affect the pharmacological activity of the substance than succussion of an ultra-dilute preparation is expected to impart activity. In other words, just as much as a spade is not a shovel, a shovel is not a spade. Indeed, one must wonder how the "proving" was carried out when the concentrated preparation is used as the treatment - isn't the concentrated substance supposed to cause symptoms of the disease? Instead of listing every historical attempt to co-opt the term "homeopathy" by people who are trying to conveniently redefine it to serve whatever end (and pass it off as legitimate debate), I think our article should simply point out the current practice of mislabeling concentrated solutions as homeopathic as the sheer flimflam that it is. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 14:38, 27 June 2015 (UTC)

The Biochemic tissue salt article fails to meet the WP:GNG notability guideline and so I have nominated it for deletion, participate in discussion here. AadaamS (talk) 05:57, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the other articles and the sources they cite the principle behind "tissue salts" seems entirely different from homeopathy, being based on the idea of deficiencies, or perhaps "imbalances", of particular salts rather than symptoms. Schuessler's idea seems to have involved administering a remedy to address alleged deficiencies, while homeopathy would try to select a remedy alleged to cause similar symptoms to those exhibited by the patient. The only thing they seem to have in common is the use of "potentised" remedies. And if you want to include information about tissue salts being "a significant part of the history in the mid-late 20th Century" you will need RS for this - it seems to have been a rather obscure offshoot (see AadaamS's comment on the Articles for deletion page). Brunton (talk) 08:03, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Contradictory information in the lead

Regarding this change sourced to Jonas et al,

Three independent systematic reviews of clinical trials of homeopathy reported that it appears to be more effective than placebo, while another review found the evidence compatible with it being no more effective than placebo.

The first citing paper from Google Scholar says "the measurable effects tend to be greater with smaller samples and in lower-quality trials", with citation to Jonas et al.

Elsewhere the lead is clear that homeopathy is no better than placebo. Reporting the few positive reviews in the lead, especially without noting the problem of small sample sizes and poorer controls, is undue when weighed against the rest of the literature. WP:REDFLAG comes into play. (The Jonas paper is also twelve years old.) Manul ~ talk 00:03, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Arbitrarily quoting from one review which compares 4 other reviews, while ignoring the bulk of the literature and the repeatedly acknowledged shortcomings of studies that find positive results (small sample size, poor quality, etc.) is certainly in violation of WP:UNDUE. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 04:23, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

There must be more than 4 studies out there so only using 4 hardly constitutes presenting the majority view of the medical expert community. AadaamS (talk) 06:51, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The sentence added to the lede is a direct quotation from the abstract of the review. The text of the review itself is rather more nuanced in its discussion of the systematic reviews, concluding its discussion of them with the comment that because of various factors it is "impossible to draw definitive conclusions" from them. This has often been discussed here in the past, by the way, as a search of the archives for the phrase "three independent systematic reviews" will confirm. Brunton (talk) 08:16, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

The lead states that "Although some clinical trials produce positive results, systematic reviews reveal that this is because of chance, flawed research methods, and reporting bias." The implication is that the systematic reviews of homeopathy are all negative. That is not true, as Jonas et al. demonstrated, and so this sentence should be reworded to more accurately reflect the literature. Everymorning talk 11:45, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

How about "...multiple systematic reviews indicate that this is because of chance..."? The solution surely is not to cherry pick a single review and quote it out of context. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 16:13, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

Good idea, I've boldly made that change. Everymorning, I've looked at several of your edits to the article, and they often appear to be framing homeopathy as debatable or possibly plausible (e.g ). As mentioned in this thread and the previous thread #Louis_Rey, this is a matter of WP:REDFLAG and disproportionate WP:WEIGHT. The article can't suggest a false balance that would be reminiscent of "teach the controversy". Manul ~ talk 19:11, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

FDA section

I've chopped it down quite a bit, but I think it's still a bit wordy (and UNDUE, to be honest). We should be able to cover this in a paragraph. I'll have another look at it later, but if anyone else can do anything with it, go for it. Black Kite (talk) 11:21, 29 June 2015 (UTC)

units of concentration in the article

As we are writing for the layman reader, I think the use of the homeopathic dilution scale is unsuitable, shouldn't we just mention that homeopaths have their own terminology and scale but the article could otherwise refer to concentrations like 1:10 and so forth. AadaamS (talk) 06:25, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I fear the layman will have just as much difficulty with exponents and scientific notation. The article should be as clear as possible in defining C, X, D and so forth, but I don't know that the terminology should be changed. 24.12.123.170 (talk) 16:16, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

The random layman is more likely to have come across scientific definitions of concentrations, like concentrations in the Misplaced Pages article than homeopathic concentrations. Science is a lot more widespread than homeopathy. There should be a section that briefly explains the concentration scale and otherwise refer to the main article for homeopathic dilutions. So yes, I think the article should be changed. AadaamS (talk) 17:49, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Who says homeopathy is pseudoscience?

"Homeopathy is a pseudoscience" suggests that Misplaced Pages is judging homeopathy to be pseudoscience. (That's how it reads to me: YMMV.) I think that changing it to "Homeopathy is considered a pseudoscience" make it clear (taken in conjunction with the sources referenced for this assertion) that Misplaced Pages is merely reporting the views of reliable sources on pseudoscience as to whether homeopathy qualifies as such. — Preceding unsigned comment added by John Stumbles (talk • contribs) 00:10, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

This has been covered. See the section in yellow at the top of this talk page:

"2. Generally considered pseudoscience: Theories which have a following, such as astrology, but which are generally considered pseudoscience by the scientific community, may properly contain that information and may be categorized as pseudoscience." EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 02:09, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

More false balance

Re ,

Some studies have been able to replicate the results of Benveniste's original 1988 paper, while others have failed to do so.

This comes after a summary of the high-profile scrutiny the Benveniste paper received in 1988 that showed problems with the controls. The import of the paragraph is clear: no homeopathic effects have been verified. The addition above, referring to subsequent replication attempts which haven't received such attention, looks undue. We can't say, effectively, "But hey, there may be something to it after all. We report, you decide."

This is another recent case where citing a source that cites sources has the effect of circumventing WP:WEIGHT. We have to weigh sources against the rest of the literature in order to avoid a WP:FALSEBALANCE. There is also a WP:REDFLAG issue, also recently discussed.

Everymorning, would you please review the previous threads #Louis_Rey #Contradictory_information_in_the_lead. The same problems keep appearing. Manul ~ talk 18:49, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

• I don't see what's wrong with the cited source . I don't think that papers having received relatively little attention is reason enough to say that they must be disregarded. The paper itself is published in The American Journal of Pharmaceutical Education, which is indexed by Medline. There is nothing wrong with the source or the content other than that it conflicts with what some editors think about homeopathy, namely that it is "just water". Everymorning talk 11:17, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• The article doesn't reflect "what some editors think", it reflects scientific consensus. If that consensus is that homeopathy is just water, then that's what we say. Black Kite (talk) 11:33, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• I didn't say there was anything wrong with the Johnson paper. Encyclopedias are all about elision -- keeping things in proportion. Your comment above is similar to what you said last month, "there is nothing medical about saying that homeopathic dilutions are not just water". I've pointed to WP:REDFLAG several times since then, and sorry but I don't see an indication that you understand the issue. Would you please revisit this and other policies that have been mentioned. Manul ~ talk 13:57, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

• And the same problem again. My response is to repeat what I have said in this thread and the previous ones mentioned. Everymorning, I would like you to show some indication that you understand what is being discussed here before editing further. Manul ~ talk 21:59, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
• This is different. The paper I added from the respected journal Expert Opinion on Drug Discovery is a review article, so it meets MEDRS. The JACM paper is also a review article. Your ideological opposition to homeopathy is not a reason to censor any positive evidence for it if this evidence can be found in reliable sources, as is the case here. Everymorning talk 22:09, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Different from what? Would you please explain why you think WP:REDFLAG, WP:WEIGHT, and WP:FALSEBALANCE do not apply here. Manul ~ talk 22:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Well when I said different I meant compared with the Louis Rey discussion on this page that took place previously. The reason it is different is that the paper in Expert Opinion on Drug Discovery is a review paper. This means it meets MEDRS, while the paper by Rey did not, since it was primary research. I will acknowledge that REDFLAG appears to be an issue because only one source was provided, while REDFLAG says that multiple sources are needed. Accordingly, I suppose it shouldn't be included without another source, so I won't add it back in until I find such a source. Everymorning talk 00:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

My objection to Louis Rey was not MEDRS but REDFLAG. Above you thought I was objecting to the Johnson paper, but again my point was REDFLAG, WEIGHT, and FALSEBALANCE. Then you thought I was objecting to EODD, but again I said the problem was REDFLAG, WEIGHT, and FALSEBALANCE. I haven't even assessed the JACM paper and didn't revert it.

So ... now you are going to look for another paper that has "validated the effects of homeopathic dilutions in numerous different organisms"? If there were a fundamental change in scientists' understanding of the universe recently, then we would know about it, at least I would. There is a large disconnect here that probably can't be fixed any time soon. In the interim, would you please stop promoting homeopathy here? Manul ~ talk 01:22, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

While the abstract of the Expert Opinion paper states that:

"Although some areas of concern remain, research carried out so far both in vitro and in vivo validates the effects of highly diluted homeopathic medicines in a wide variety of organisms.",

the first sentence of the "conclusions" section of the same paper states that:

"There is no conclusive evidence that highly diluted homeopathic remedies are different from placebo;"

The article is actually just an overview of various studies that have been carried out. There is no declaration of how papers were selected for inclusion in the review and no indication that any of the material was critically assessed by the authors (giving no way to establish the risk of bias) and there is no statistical assessment of any data to establish significance of any of the reported findings (it's an informational narative review, not a meta analysis). In short, the article is nothing more than a list and brief summary of arbitrarily selected papers. We already know these papers exist, their inclusion in this review article does nothing to establish their value or further inform us on the value of homeopathy. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 17:09, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

I dont't think we should care about your personal opinion about the paper. You are not a reliable source. The paper is a reliable source. I think everymorning is correct - I support his edit. . --EDtoHW (talk) 18:17, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

And is your statement that it is a reliable source based on anything but your opinion? This isn't a vote, and if you are going to participate in the discussion, you need to explain your reasoning. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

As per WP:MEDRS:

"Broadly speaking, reviews may be narrative or systematic (and sometimes both). Narrative reviews often set out to provide a general summary of a topic based on a survey of the literature. Systematic reviews tend to use sophisticated methodology to address a particular clinical question in as balanced (unbiased) a way as possible. Some systematic reviews also include a statistical meta-analysis to combine the results of several clinical trials to provide stronger quantitative evidence about how well a treatment works for a particular purpose. Systematic reviews and meta-analyses of randomized comparative (or controlled) trials can provide strong evidence of the clinical efficacy of particular treatments in given scenarios, which may in turn be incorporated into medical guidelines or institutional position papers (ideal sources for clinical evidence). More general narrative reviews can be useful sources when outlining a topic."

Since there is a concern with WP:False Balance in our article, it is important that we choose the best available evidence to support the text we include. WP:MEDRS suggests that narrative reviews (such as the one in question) can be useful when outlining a topic, but that systematic reviews and meta-analyses should be used to establish specific claims. We don't need any more articles to outline what homeopathy is and this isn't the type of article we should be using to assess the value of homeopathy (according to WP:MEDRS, not my opinion). EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 19:15, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I concur with everymorning that your ideological opposition to homeopathy is the sole reason to censor any positive evidence for it if this evidence can be found in reliable sources, as is the case here. Meds say "More general narrative reviews can be useful sources when outlining a topic" -- they do not say censor them if they provide evidence for homeopathy. By the way I see the same users who point at MEDS and conduct this crusade against homeopathy to be really active in .....creating these policies .. Is not that interesting ? --EDtoHW (talk) 21:52, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

I appreciate your vote of confidence and marvel at your ability to read minds. WP:MEDRS explicitly states what sort of information is appropriate for extraction from meta analyses and systematic reviews. It also explicitly states what sort of information is appropriate for extraction from narrative reviews. The article in question is a narrative review. Can you give us any reason, in accordance with WP:MEDRS, why we should use a narrative review to bolster claims which WP:MEDRS explicitly states are to be supported by an entirely different variety of source material (which is to say, a systematic review or meta analysis)? This is not censorship - it is an honest and objective assessment of the suggested source material and an attempt to adhere to the guidance of WP:MEDRS. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 22:15, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

You don/t need to read minds to see the same users who continuously crusade against homeopathy to be extremely active in shaping the policies they are calling us to follow. A glance in the edit history ( homeopathy and meds ) will convince the unbiased reader instantly about the "game" here, Even these policies do NOT say exclude or censor info on a x topic because a review is narrative especially when this info conflicts with perceived consensus about homeopathy. They say use them to outline the topic ----An encyclopedia should inform by including notable views even if they conflict not run propaganda against or for a method. --EDtoHW (talk) 22:34, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

There has been a considerable amount of discussion as to how Misplaced Pages should cover fringe medical topics, and this article in particular has received much scrutiny from Misplaced Pages contributors. If it didn't comply with policy, you can be assured that this would have been discussed before. As the histories of both the article and this talk page show however, the only significant disagreement regarding content has come from individuals who refuse to accept that as an encyclopaedia, Misplaced Pages should reflect the scientific consensus on the topic, rather than 'balancing' the overwhelming scientific consensus with poorly-sourced content which pro-homoeopathy contributors wish to include in order to misrepresent the reality of the situation. In the unlikely circumstance that the scientific consensus changes, Misplaced Pages will of course reflect the matter in the article - but until then, the argument that homoeopathy promoters have is with science, not with Misplaced Pages. This is an encyclopaedia. We represent the facts. An the simple undeniable facts are that science sees homoeopathy as pseudoscience. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:04, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

In a quick glance, I didn't see any of the contributors to this particular thread making any contributions on the WP:MEDRS page. Some editors who have worked on the homeopathy article have also contributed to the WP:MEDRS page, but so have many, many others, which suggests that nothing is being written by homeopathy editors to serve their own ends without passing the scrutiny of other editors. If you want to simply complain about WP:MEDRS, you will be best served to leave Misplaced Pages all together, since we adhere to those policies. If you want to change WP:MEDRS, have at it, though I don't suspect you will have much luck since the policies reflect the input of a wide range of editors and reflect the practices of evidence based medicine as encountered in the real world beyond the confines of Misplaced Pages. If you want to make changes to the homeopathy article, please explain why a narrative review should be used as evidence to support any novel conclusions - without attacking other editors or hinting at some grand conspiracy - and keeping in mind that, the sole reason this is even being discussed is because there are NO high quality systematic reviews or meta analyses (read: appropriate sources) which draw these conclusions. The reason why these papers don't exist is no big mystery, but we are not here to fill that void with inappropriate references. EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 23:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

people can look for themselves and decide that whether almost the same users who continuously crusade against homeopathy are extremely active in shaping the same policies they are calling us to follow. I answered your question- Per Meds ( even if in their present state) "More general narrative reviews can be useful sources when outlining a topic" therefore part of outlining of an x topic is including all these information since it is presented in such a reliable source- not to imply that this is the true. That would improve the article which today reads as anti-homeopathy propaganda and not as an encyclopedia. --EDtoHW (talk) 08:07, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Absolutely, you are completely correct, there is an overwhelming consensus among WP editors that the scientific view should prevail over the pseudoscientific view. As encyclopedians, we should not keep our readers guessing, we should present the best knowledge available about a subject and that, according to consensus, is the scientific view. There are other outlets with less stringent ideas about verifiability of information, such as Wikia, if you feel that the guidelines and rules of WP aren't very friendly to homeopathy. AadaamS (talk) 10:35, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

It is interesting that whatever sources do not concur with anti homeopathy views are automatically considered pseudo scientific --- not matter how reliable and high quality the sources are. Do you think that when they say "More general narrative reviews can be useful sources when outlining a topic" does not apply when it is about homeopathy? --EDtoHW (talk) 11:37, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

It is up to you to challenge the basis of WP:MEDRS. Now that the discussion has drifted from the quality of available sources into the realm of conspiracies, I find it conspicuous that your account was registered only yesterday. AadaamS (talk) 13:48, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

If you want to contribute to the discussion ( and not to speculations ) you have to try to respond to what it is being discussed - I asked " Do you think that when they say "More general narrative reviews can be useful sources when outlining a topic" does not apply when it is about homeopathy? I hope you have something say more than that. --EDtoHW (talk) 14:20, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

It absolutely applies to our homeopathy article. The problem is that the proposed edit:

"...a 2008 review found that in vitro and in vivo studies had validated the effects of homeopathic dilutions in numerous different organisms."

is stating that novel conclusions can be drawn from the cited paper. This would not be an instance of "outlining" the topic, but rather one of introducing undue weight. The authors did not conduct any original research, or at least they didn't describe any in the paper, so how can we use it to claim something in opposition of the best available information as presented by properly designed, high quality studies? Additionally, when the references used to write that paper have been analyzed as part of systematic reviews and meta analyses (i.e. subjected to stringent and well defined analysis), the conclusions have been that positive findings generally come from poor quality, smaller trials. WP:MEDRS is very clear that a narrative review should not be cited in efforts to supplant these more robust studies. Having to repeatedly explain this to you has become a big waste of time and is starting to look like a case of IDHT.EditorFormerlyKnownAsPuddin' (talk) 17:14, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

There is also this review. Would this be considered acceptable for this article? The journal is Medline indexed. Everymorning talk 16:01, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Don't be ridiculous. It is nothing but a summary of the authors own research, on plants. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:08, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

If a review is published in good journal it is not wiki pedia editors to question its credibility. i think this is clear ( unless the editors who several of them are active both in homeopathy and in MEDS decide to change these rules )

It is an unfortunate but all-too-common problem that editors who are not familiar with the scientific literature attempt to blindly apply the guidance in MEDRS as a mechanical checklist. "MEDLINE...whirr...review article...clunk...no more than 4 years 11 months old...bing!...It's reliable for all purposes and statements, in any article!" TenOfAllTrades(talk) 18:28, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

One would say the same for your approach - Does a study provide evidence for homeopathy "bing" ----- out. Is it anti-homeopathy enough .clunk yes let 's cite.it. Furthermore, no one suggested to use this review to supplant these more robust studies and again it is not your place to judge its quality-- since it is published in a high quality reliable source you have to accept it. The suggestion was is to use them to inform and to outline the topic as MEDS dictate. Now (talk) you seem to be calling for ....a "little help from your friends" who by the way are totally .....uninvolved so you can ban whoever disagrees with you through these codes you are using are you running out of arguments ? --EDtoHW (talk) 07:36, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

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