Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 01:16, 12 August 2015

WARNING: ACTIVE ARBITRATION REMEDIES This page is subject to discretionary sanctions; any editor who repeatedly or egregiously fails to adhere to applicable policies may be blocked, topic-banned, or otherwise restricted. Note also that editors on this article are subject to a limit of one revert per 24 hours (with exceptions for vandalism or BLP violations). Violation may result in blocks without further warning. Enforcement should be requested at WP:AE. Also, the article and this Talk page may not be edited by accounts with fewer than 500 edits, or by accounts that are less than 30 days old. Edits made by accounts that do not meet these qualifications may be removed. (Such removals are not subject to any "revert-rule" counting.)

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

This article has not yet been rated on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. It is of interest to multiple WikiProjects.

Video games Mid‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Video games, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of video games on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Video gamesWikipedia:WikiProject Video gamesTemplate:WikiProject Video gamesvideo game Mid This article has been rated as Mid-importance on the project's importance scale. Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks: Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks view watch edit history shell vg talk alerts purge AfDs Gameplay of Pokémon (4 participants) Lisette Titre-Montgomery (4 participants) Party royale game (3 participants) List of Minecraft characters (7 participants) Carlton Wilborn (5 participants) Cossacks (video games series) (2 participants; relisted) Rat Race (video game) (7 participants; relisted) Red Barrels (3 participants; relisted) Merge discussions Console game (discussion) Atari Interactive (discussion) Nintendo DS Lite (discussion) Pokémon Essentials (discussion) Input lag (discussion) Neo Geo Pocket (discussion) Minecraft – Volume Beta (discussion) Other discussions No major discussions Featured content candidates Donkey Kong (nom) Hotline Miami (nom) The Suicide of Rachel Foster (nom) Bejeweled (video game) (nom) Chris Redfield (nom) Good article nominations Pixel Piracy (start) River Raid (start) The Great Giana Sisters (nom) Dendy (start) Dark Urge (start) Jeanette Voerman (start) Deathloop (start) Quiver (video game) (nom) Regi (Pokémon) (start) Ridley (Metroid) (start) Blast Wind (start) Project Zero 2: Wii Edition (start) Barry Burton (start) Sea of Stars (start) Pokémon Stadium (nom) Otogirisō (start) Schim (start) Bit Pilot (start) Tom Clancy's The Division 2 (start) Unsighted (start) Gardevoir (start) Cybermania '94 (start) End Poem (nom) Nuzlocke (nom) Berzerk (video game) (start) Overcrowd: A Commute 'Em Up (start) Frostpunk (start) DYK nominations Sun Haven Reviews and reassessments A Space for the Unbound (rev) Bejeweled (video game) (rev) The Legend of Dragoon (rev) The Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past (nom) Appy Awards Articles that need... assessment (4) (0) reassessment (1) cleanup (3) infoboxes (9) cover art (250) screenshots (8,991) photos (70) translation from japan (187) creation merging Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Feminism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Feminism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Feminism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.FeminismWikipedia:WikiProject FeminismTemplate:WikiProject FeminismFeminism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Journalism Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Journalism, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of journalism on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.JournalismWikipedia:WikiProject JournalismTemplate:WikiProject JournalismJournalism Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details. Internet culture Low‑importance This article is within the scope of WikiProject Internet culture, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of internet culture on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Internet cultureWikipedia:WikiProject Internet cultureTemplate:WikiProject Internet cultureInternet culture Low This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale. WikiProject Internet culture To-do: edit history watch purge Here are some tasks awaiting attention: Article requests : View all requested internet culture articles Expand : Pick an article from here or here Photo : Category:Internet culture articles needing images Stubs : All stubs are located here Other : Category:Internet self-classification codes (!?); Try to get YouTube to FA; Tag all articles you find with {{WikiProject Internet culture}} See also Category:Internet culture articles needing attention

view · edit Frequently asked questions To view an answer, click the link to the right of the question. Q1: Can I use a particular article as a source? A1: What sources can be used in Misplaced Pages is governed by our reliable sources guideline, which requires "published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy". If you have a question about whether or not a particular source meets this policy, a good place to ask is the Reliable sources noticeboard. Q2: I found a YouTube video, a post on 4chan/Reddit/9GAG/8chan, or a blog that relates to Gamergate. Can I use it as a source in the article? A2: All sources used in the article must comply with Misplaced Pages's standards for reliable sources. Self-published sources cannot be used for biographical content on a living person. If such sources were used, then gossip, slander and libelous material may find its way into the article, which would a) tarnish the quality of Misplaced Pages's information and b) potentially open up Misplaced Pages to legal action. For further information, please read the guidelines for sources in biographies of living people. Q3: Why is Misplaced Pages preventing me from editing the article or talk page? Why is this article biased towards one party or the other? A3: Content on Misplaced Pages is required to maintain a neutral point of view as much as possible, and is based on information from reliable sources (Vox, The Wall Street Journal, etc.). The article and its talk page are under protection due to constant edit warring and addition of unsourced or unreliably sourced information prohibited by our policy on biographical content concerning living people (see WP:BLP). Q4: The "reliable sources" don't tell the full story. Why can't we use other sources? A4: Verifiability in reliable sources governs what we write. Misplaced Pages documents what the reliable sources say. If those sources are incorrect or inadequate, it is up to other reliable sources to correct this. Misplaced Pages's role is not to correct the mistakes of the world; it is to write an encyclopedia based on reliable, verifiable sources. In addition, this article falls under concerns relating to content on living persons. Sources that go into unverified or unsupported claims about living persons cannot be included at all. Editors should review the talk page archives here before suggesting a new source from non-mainstream sources to make sure that it hasn't been discussed previously.

Template:CollapsedShell Template:Copied multi

This article was nominated for deletion on 6 September 2014. The result of the discussion was Keep.

Discussions on this page often lead to previous arguments being restated. Please read recent comments, look in the archives, and review the FAQ before commenting.

The purpose of this Talkpage is to host ongoing discussion among interested editors regarding the Gamergate controversy article itself. This page is not for discussing this Talk page itself or any other meta-discussion; use the Talk:Gamergate controversy/Meta subpage for that. The subpage's creation is an Arbitration Enforcement action.

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62

This page has archives. Sections older than 5 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present.

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Gamergate (harassment campaign) article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic. New to Misplaced Pages? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help. Assume good faith Be polite and avoid personal attacks Be welcoming to newcomers Seek dispute resolution if needed Article policies Neutral point of view No original research Verifiability

Find video game sources: "Gamergate" harassment campaign – news · newspapers · books · scholar · JSTOR · free images · free news sources · TWL · NYT · WP reference · VG/RS · VG/RL · WPVG/Talk

Archives: Index, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60, 61, 62Auto-archiving period: 5 days

Sanctions enforcement

All articles related to the gamergate controversy are subject to discretionary sanctions.

Requests for enforcing sanctions may be made at: Misplaced Pages:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement.

RfC: Movement?

Can we settle this with an RfC? ForbiddenRocky (talk) 02:17, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's necessary to go over this again for the benefit of Masem or others who feel there is still discussion to be had, you're welcome to start one. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:19, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

I kind of hope this would be the last time. Optimistic, I know. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 03:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi ForbiddenRocky, I think you might mean WP:RfC (request for comments); and have amended the section header accordingly. I concur that a discussion is preferable to edit warring. - Ryk72 02:43, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah RfC. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 03:53, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Having just looked at the previous arguments / discussion it has been consistently completely derailed with nonsense about what criteria Gamergate needs to have to be a movement. It has been an exercise in claiming reliable sources are reliable for every other word they say but "movement", followed by a lot of special pleading. Koncorde (talk) 21:55, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

Sources

Without parsing the context of the reference too much (a lot of the sources use the phrase "campaign") the below is the beginning of a list of the currently used sources that refer to the "Gamergate movement", and those that don't. I'm not holding any level of truthiness to the accuracy, and adding no weight based on the reliability of the source or context the phrase is used.

It demonstrates that removing "movement" from paragraphs where sources use that phrase - but using alternative phrases from other sources - is not representative. This does not indicate the need to change the title of the article, or the content, but arguing over the word movement when it is being used in referenced reliable sources is bizarre logic. Koncorde (talk) 23:16, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

You do know the index numbers will change if someone adds, removes, or moves a source? Putting in the name the author would help people use this list, should that happen. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:14, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I know, but for the sake of demonstration it'll do, and it's bad enough I'm reading the bloody things. Koncorde (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• 1. No use, pre-Gamergate
• 2. No use (use of horde, mob, saboteurs etc)
• 3. Multiple use of movement
• 4. Multiple use of movement
• 5. No use
• 6. No use
• 7. No use
• 8. No use
• 9. Single use
• 10. No use
• 11. No use, pre-gamergate
• 12. Multiple use of movement
• 13. Multiple use of movement
• 14. Multiple use of movement (including "hate movement")
• 15. Multiple use of movement
• 16. Used twice, once to refer to a counter-GG "movement"
• 17. Uses the word, never in reference to gamergate (Longform, Kony)
• 18. No use
• 19. Sorry I don't have a copy of this Multiple uses of movement Brustopher (talk) 23:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
• 20. Used twice once for GG, once for #notyourshield
• 21. Multiple use of movement
• 22. Generally refers to other movements (gamergate discussed as an aspect of larger MRA movement)
• 23. No use
• 24. No use, pre-gamergate
• 25. No use
• 26. Used twice
• 27. No use
• 28. No use, pre-gamergate
• 29. No use
• 30. No use, pre-gamergate
• 31. No use, pre-gamergate
• 32. No use, pre-gamergate
• 33. No use, pre-gamergate
• 34. No use
• 35. No use
• 36. No use
• 37. No use
• 38. No use
• 39. No use
• 40. No use
• 41. Multiple use of movement
• 42. No use
• 43. Multiple use of movement
• 44. Public statement by Utah University, no use
• 45. Multiple use of movement
• 46. Multiple use of movement
• 47. Single use, but clear reference
• 48. No use
• 49. Single use, but clear reference
• 50. No use
• 51. No mention, largely about 8chan
• 52. Single use, but clear reference
• 53. Multiple use of movement
• 54. No mention, largely about Wu
• 55. No use
• 56. Single use, but clear reference
• 57. Single use, but clear reference
• 58. No use, but the feed of other articles is headered by a description of Gamergate as a movement twice
• 59. No use
• 60. No mention of gamergate at all
• 61. Multiple use of movement
• 62. Multiple use of movement
• 63. Multiple use of movement, specifically refers to "hashtag movement"
• 64. Multiple use of movement, specifically refers to "loosely defined" and links to their own summary of gamergate as a movement
• 65. Multiple use of movement
• 66. Multiple use of movement
• 67. Multiple use of movement
• 68. No use
• 69. No use (but is referring to harassment of a Gamergate supporter)
• 70. Multiple use of movement
• 71. Not about gamergate
• 72. Multiple use of movement
• 73. Multiple use of movement (beautiful sentence "...Web-based campaign of harassment against women who make, write about and enjoy video games, masquerading as a movement of gamers upset about a perceived lack of ethics among games journalists. The movement, insofar as a group of people obsessively complaining about something on Twitter deserves to be called a movement...")
• 74. No use
• 75. Multiple use of movement (and use of "of sorts" and "so called")
• 76. No use
• 77. Multiple use of movement
• 78. No mention of gamergate at all
• 79. Multiple use of movement (and describes how video gamers were labelled “a terrorist movement,” “a hate group,” “a bunch of fascists,” and “recreational misogynists and bigots”)
• 80. Multiple use of movement
• 81. Multiple use of movement
• 82. No use
• 83. Multiple use of movement
• 84. Multiple use of movement
• 85. Multiple use of movement
• 86. No use
• 87. Multiple use of movement
• 88. Multiple use of movement
• 89. Single use
• 90. Multiple use of movement
• 91. Multiple use of movement
• 92. Multiple use of movement, including reference to an equivalent "SJW movement"
• 93. German article, can someone please vet as I don't trust translation services. @Krano:@ForbiddenRocky: both of you can understand German if I recall correctly? Pinging for judgement. Brustopher (talk) 21:10, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

• No use of movement. The auto=translation would probably have been enough for your purposes. (Though the what is written does suggest "activism" and "discussion".) ForbiddenRocky (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC) PS I don't think the ping worked. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 04:10, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

• 94. No use
• 95. No mention of gamergate at all
• 96. Multiple use of movement
• 97. No use, links to articles that do
• 98. No use
• 99. No use
• 100. No mention of gamergate at all

What do you mean by "movement" and how do the various RS align to that? It's easy to think that the appearance of the word "movement" is enough, but how it's used and what it means in context is just as important. PS I'm really busy, may not be able to respond for a while. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 03:28, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

In short, each of these is a reliable source, we currently use for any number of other words. When they say movement they are calling Gamergate a movement - the context is "gamergate movement" in almost 100% of the cases. There is occasionally a qualifier "ostensible" or "so called" (rare). The significant majority of those that don't use movement either just refer to Gamergate (with no descriptive element) or campaign. Someone else can go through and check if they wish or have some objection, but I intend to do every single source. Koncorde (talk) 08:39, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The point I'm making isn't going to be clear, but how many places would "Gamergate Movement" get translated into another language and then back into English with a different wording. When I was reading the German piece I had to check if they translated "movement" as something else - e.g. "activism" or "discussion" or "group". Just using the word "movement" alone isn't really what makes something a social or political movement - as a fact or as a usage. Also, it might be useful to follow the sources to their sources. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:07, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I reviewed the article one more time, as I did so I noticed that Gamergate could also be called a: war, debate, discussion, opinion, controversy, organization, group, trolls, advocates/advocacy, conspiracy, campaign, banner, representation, backlash, identity, hijacking, conflict, escalation, community, orchestration, commentary, protest, critics, distension, vandals, theorists, etc. This is a mighty work you're doing here, but without listing the other possible appellations, it's not as useful as you think for determining DUE weight of the use. Also, those modifiers you're not considering "ostensible" and "so called"? Those two particular ones may or may not matter, but many others would e.g. conspiracy theorist v. theorist. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 16:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not asking for "due weight", I'm making the point that we're happy to use any other word BUT movement and the arguments against its use are (frankly) terrible. Koncorde (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Forgive me, I am still struggling to understand. I would certainly oppose renaming the article, or if we were to systematically use the phrase "gamergate movement," but if we occasionally use it as a shorthand for a group of people, why is that so bad? Many sources do so (granted, not all, and not systematically). Sometimes I feel like I'm watching the war of Lilliput and Blefuscu, though I will not be surprised at all if I am simply being short-sighted. Thank you. Dumuzid (talk) 17:08, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The point I'm making is that this isn't the tool to use to determine if "movement" (or any other word) is the right word to use. It's not a question of bad, but correct and informative per RS. Words don't mean things in isolation - the question becomes "what's the context?". The points I'm making here isn't really about the use of "movement" but about the meaning trying to be conveyed. I find most places where movement was edit from the GGC entry to be unproblematic one way or the other. But this work Koncorde is doing, isn't as informative, clear cut, and simple as it seems. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not attempting to identify the right word. I am making the point that many reliable sources use the word movement and we appear to be pedantic only when it comes to this one particular phrase. For instance all the changes made by Mark, and then Peter (after I reverted) are in a section where every single source refers to gamergate as a movement (which is what started this in the end). Koncorde (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Shorter: This tool isn't going to convince people. Nor should it. However, I'm not saying the people you're trying to convince are correct either. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:04, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

I suspect the real issue here for many people is whether or not calling GG a movement lends it legitimacy. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 17:25, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If it's a legitimacy issue then someone should have a word with all the reliable sources already using the word. If we reflect the reliable sources, and the reliable sources use the word movement, and we trust these reliable sources for the use of the words "war, debate, discussion, opinion, controversy, organization, group, trolls, advocates/advocacy, conspiracy, campaign, banner, representation, backlash, identity, hijacking, conflict, escalation, community, orchestration, commentary, protest, critics, distension, vandals, theorists" without question then what are we doing? Just whose hoops exactly are wikipedia editors having to jump through? Koncorde (talk) 17:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't argue with me about it. I'm just pointing out what appears to be the sticking point. I think maybe the people who care should RfC it. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 18:04, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry didn't mean to come across as arguing with you - I'm not. I could have summarised more simply but didn't want to re-factor your independent replies and responses. I'm waiting happily for the RFC, which is why I have not just gone and reverted Peters changes, until such time I will continue to expand the list. If someone chooses to go through the list and make a greater claim as to why we should not be able to use the word movement then they can have at it. Koncorde (talk) 18:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, I'm not going to RfC it, and the editors who have the status quo aren't either. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 19:16, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

The way that one can view it is that everyone (ourselves and the press alike) is struggling to find a word to describe this group of people and their ideals (as opposed to the situation overall, which we are calling the controversy). Of the words even suggested, the three that perhaps stand out the most is "movement", "campaign", and "conspiracy" in the news. And when you do a google news search to survey those terms, if you search on the phrase "Gamergate (term)", movement gets 300+ hits, "conspiracy" 20-some, and "campaign" 40-some. It shows that the press have, to some degree, opted to call the group the movement, just as the group itself self-identifies itself as a movement, even if the press believe this term is ironic or is far from an example of what they envision a movement is. (This is separate from the point about in considering the definition of a social movement, which arguably might be original research to force GG to be classified as that without the presence of RSes doing that for us). And that also gives us simple wording that helps make the article readable - it is comparable to establishing an acronym at the start of an article to avoid typing out the long name every time. "Movement" is also a very neutral word as "controversy", since movements can be both redeeming or irrational entities. "Campaign" may be neutral too, but "conspiracy" is not and we'd need a lot more evidence to pick that as our working term.

If the issue is to avoid giving the group legitimacy, the first time the word that movement would be used we can make sure it is clear that this is a self-assigned label by GG, and that avoids giving the term full legitimacy. But I will stress that as a neutral and objective work, we should care little if a self-claimed statement creates legitimacy or not, as along as we establish it as a claim to avoid stating it as fact. If John Q Smith claimed he was innocent of a crime, inclusion of this as a self-claim doesn't legitimize his innocence. --MASEM (t) 19:19, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If what the sources say lends Gamergate legitimacy, then we just have to go with what the sources say. Although mind you, the whole idea of the word movement giving legitimacy is absurd in my eyes. If someone completely unacquainted with the subject read through this entire article as it was back when the word "movement" popped up a lot more, I'm fairly certain they'd come to the same conclusion regarding the topic as they would from reading the article as it stands today. The article will not suddenly present Gamergate as a bastion of legitimacy and ethics if the "movement" is used. Going through all this mental gymnastics just to stop Gamergate from having the most dubious, suspect and unwinning of wins is just pointless. Brustopher (talk) 19:42, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

"Going through all this mental gymnastics is just pointless." I agree. I just want this settled and then to go away. Ha! I'm so optimistic. I don't see the point of calling it a movement or not calling it a movement. But if examining the issues will settle it, then I hope it gets settled. Really, a representative sample of GG clearly has plenty of douchenozzles - that's pretty clear from the RS. If GG is a movement then it's a movement with plenty of harassing, doxing, sexist assholes in it- that's pretty clear in the WP:GGC entry. ForbiddenRocky (talk) 08:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Gjoni gag order

Hey. Kung Fu Man added a little bit to the article stating that Zoe Quinn sought and received a gag order against Eron Gjoni- I'm not sure the article we use as a source includes anything other than Gjoni's assertion that this happened, and in fact casts doubt on it by virtue of the fact that it's an interview. The sentence in the article is "The first thing Eron Gjoni said after sitting down across from me at Veggie Galaxy in December was that he would probably violate his gag order if he talked to me. Then he talked for the next three hours, and again and again over the next three months." - I'm not sure we can use that to state the 'sought and received a gag order' thing. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:00, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Hm...yeah I'll concede that other than his statement and this tweet (https://twitter.com/thequinnspiracy/status/540666146706300929) I am finding little reliable sources here to back this up. I have no problems pulling it back if that is the case, though may be worth looking into. I've been out of the loop for some times...could court documents be of use here?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't believe we should be using primary documents as a source, but if we can find court documents that prove this then I'm fine using Gjoni's statement in the interview as a source for it. PeterTheFourth (talk) 08:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I can understand that, personally I assume nothing on either the parts of Ms. Quinn nor Ms. Gjoni as a neutral editor. For the time being I'll do some research on the matter but will remove the statement calling it a gag order.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 08:24, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The same Boston Magazine article goes on to describe the court proceeding and gag order as a matter of fact, not in Gjoni's words. Rhoark (talk) 13:35, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Harassment and attribution

Hey! Kung Fu Man and I were having a discussion at his talk page- initially because I believed he was skirting more than a bit too close to 1RR, but it developed into a discussion on how we should be describing Gamergate's harassment and how to properly phrase it in Misplaced Pages's voice. I believe that we don't need to provide citations every time we mention Gamergate's harassment, and I believe a good essay to refer to here is WP:BLUE. I'd rather let Kung Fu Man phrase his POV himself. PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:56, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll lead this off by illustrating it as such. These two sentences convey a very different meaning despite the subtle word choice:

• "Commentators felt that this was a response to Gamergate, some noting it as a rejection of the misogynistic harassment it perpetrated."
• "Commentators felt that this was a response to Gamergate, some noting it as a rejection of the misogynistic harassment attributed to it."

Both of these are very similar statements, but I believe the latter maintains a much more neutral tone for the article to take. While we cannot deny that harassment has taken place the attribution of it is less factual and more opinionated, as pointed out by videos such as this on the Huffington Post discussing gamergate in which the host acknowledges that such attacks against he had no certainty that attacks against him came from gamergate or indeed third-party trolls. Additionally there was an event covered by Kotaku's Jason Schreier where several in gamergate pointed out an individual that led a personal campaign against Ms. Sarkeesian with no ties to GamerGate yet the blame was pointed towards them. The point of the matter is, looking at this article as it is now it is outright making claims: it is saying all those in Gamergate are responsible for such attacks, that every accusation is true. Which raises a red flag for me and should for anyone regardless of gamergate in that no article should treat a consensus as a fact.

I believe it's very important for the tone of the article to make it clear that for good or ill of the impact of gamergate that these are individuals making these claims, journalists making these attributions and not the article itself. As we see here two sources bring into question some of the claims of harassment, and over time more retrospectives may occur. How could these be worked in without changing the article entirely, given it's entire stance appears to even the most casual reader to say "Gamergate is absolutely this?"

I believe writing the article in a tone that makes attribution of claims good or ill will go miles to improve the neutrality of this article and give us hopefully something we can all agree with that caters to neither side over the other.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 10:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

This is a point that I've been trying to point out, and that Rhoark's list of sources from about a month or so ago has also pointed out: the high quality RSes very carefully do not directly attribute the harassment to the group of GG supporters that say they are about ethics and are against harassment, though 1) they do not dismiss the possibility that some of them may be lying and using ethics to cover up and 2) do not dismiss them of any guilt for creating an environment that enables whomever is doing the harassing due to their dehumanization of Quinn, etc. and other factors. But they also note that there are third parties that may be involved doing this to stir the pot. Our article should be making it clear that factually, harassment and threats are actions are done by some agencies using the GG hashtag, but the connection to this to anyone that is a GG ethics movement supporter is unknown. That's also why it is necessary in relationship to the movement aspect above to make sure we are distinct (as most sources do) to understand that we have the GG hashtag users (which include those engaged in harassment), and as a subset of those, the GG ethics movement users, though obviously who is in what group, we (WP and the press alike) have no clue. The more-reliable sources are very careful from directly assigning blame here to those that say they aren't doing it (though have more than enough condemnation of other factors to that same group as clear opinions). --MASEM (t) 12:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem here is that the harassment is all Gamergate is about. There is no scandal, only a vain attempt to excuse disgusting behaviour by blaming "ethics". That's what our reliable sources tell us, overwhelmingly. --TS 14:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The sources may call it an vain attempt, but as we are objective and neutral, we can't accept that tone as fact. We clearly have to include this predominant claim, but only as a claim. --MASEM (t) 14:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, we can say it was a vain attempt. This is a statement of fact. The attempt failed. There was no scandal. Attempts to excuse misogynistic attacks by saying the victims were corrupt comprehensively failed. In fact our article is largely a catalogue of how comprehensively the ruse failed. --TS 20:08, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Something worth consideration too is that these claims of harassment are sometimes overshot by the articles. For example, Buzzfeed took the word of one individual that during the Baltimore riots that Gamergate was inciting racial hatred and the 'color cabal' was an enforcement branch of the movement; after some pushing they only added a disclaimer than the person presenting the information "admitted to being dishonest". Jezebel ran an article on youtube reviewer Charlanahzard contacting the mothers of online harassers but attributed it to Gamergate. She herself stated otherwise and the writer admitted she based the information on information from The Guardian and would amend the article (seen here). This is one very good reason why such statements should be treated as being attributed to the group than as straight out 'facts'.

Additionally there are sources such as the above HuffPost video as well as this one, these lengthy comments by Stephen Totilo and Jason Schreier where he acknowledges that the argument for ethics in journalism is a factor for the movement. There are statements too by C. H. Sommers, Mark Kern, Dennis Dyack, Brad Wardell, Daniel Vávra, Liana Kerzner, and The Fine Young Capitalists in both written and interview form that discuss much of the details are they themselves citable (Kerzner herself is neutral towards the movement and just as critical as she is supportive). There's an article discussing the bomb threat made against a meetup in Washington D.C. that in it's closing paragraph even acknowledged the ethics in journalism aspect in light of other other criticisms. Several prominent internet reviewers such as John Bain (TotalBiscuit), Stephen Williams (Boogie2988) and Joe Vargas (AngryJoe) have all offered opinions on Gamergate and discussions on the matter positive and negative, with Bain even interviewing Totilo on several things seen as ethical breaches. There is even an upcoming Airplay debate with the society of professional journalists this very month discussing gamergate and the media's handling of it. Even a purported response by the guy running this very site, Jimmy Wales, has weighed in on this subject of the group, harassment, ethics in journalism and its leaderless aspect. These are all things that should have a place in this article to cover it by all aspects.

But in its current form? It's taking a side on an issue it should be neutral. Rather than covering it in an encyclopedic manner it instead approaches it entirely as a harassment narrative to the point that almost all of the above does not fit the article's tone whatsoever, despite their validity. We're not here to take a stance, simply to give the movement the proper and fair encyclopedic coverage it deserves, good and bad, regardless of our personal feelings. That's why we're editors.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:12, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Gamergate was a harassment campaign. That's what the reliable sources tell us (and even what we have experienced here on Misplaced Pages). How is there a "good" side to that? Kaldari (talk) 21:09, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Again, that's a claim. If GG states they are not a harassment campaign, it doesn't matter how many RSes try to claim it is, it is a contentious state, a labeling statement, and one that must remain as a claim to stay neutral and objective. If in the future some law agency (people in the position to be able to determine this directly) issue a report that GG was a harassment campaign, then at that point we should treat it as fact, but not before when we're only going off reports in the media. We certainly have to present the strong opinion GG only exists as a harassment campaign by mainstream media, obviously. --MASEM (t) 21:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're saying is right Kung Fu Man. The article as it stands mentions the bomb threat, and other harassment faced by GG supporters, presents analysis and commentary on the ethics issues. As for the Airplay issue, I believe we're waiting for that to happen and more sources to be generated before putting that in the article. A lot of the things you mention do actually have a place in the article. Brustopher (talk) 21:21, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I guess I may have missed them. The overall tone just seems to focus entirely on online harassment, to the point the article itself feels more like it's discussing that online harassment exists than the Gamergate movement itself. In fact I'll go so far as to argue that some of it may be received undue weight and certain sections either needs to be consolidated or rewritten entirely as the subjects they're covering seem to be online harassment.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The media is not judge and jury to determining the validity of a scandal, particularly one that involves the media. The media certainly believe that there is none, wanting to instead focus on the harassment, but that's demonstrating the implicit bias by nature of the industry that the media has in covering a story that involves all these counter-culture elements to it. It is the predominant opinion but by no means necessarily the right, factual one. This is a social situation where there likely is no right answer so we cannot right pretending there is one. --MASEM (t) 21:10, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe I just haven't been paying attention, but what actual scandal did gamergate expose? If there was one, I still haven't heard about it. Kaldari (talk) 21:23, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Well several sites have taken up disclosure policies in light of it, including PC Gamer which was in response to people citing that a reviewer was covering Ubisoft products while married to an employee. Bain brought up disclosure issues in his discusion with Totilo including those by Patricia Hernandez, and Kotaku staff member's own statements in light of Gamergate's accusations. There's meat there, but even with just these sources it's hard not to say ethics aren't a factor to the movement. Not to mention the whole Gamejournopros mailing list, which showed evidence of several sites agreeing on how to handle stories amongst themselves. I honestly believe more in-depth research could rapidly flesh this out easily.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 21:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Then by all means, do such research, and present your findings here. I'd like to read that. Dumuzid (talk) 22:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

In all honesty Dumuzid it'll do little unless the tone of the article can be addressed first.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The article already mentions gamejournopros and changes to ethics policies. I strongly suggest that you carefully read the article all the way through at least once, and then come back to the talk page with proposals. That way you can acquaint yourself better with the source material and the article itself, and thereby make more productive proposals.Brustopher (talk) 22:14, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I believe you misinterpreted my statement that I may have 'missed some sources' to mean 'I didn't fully read the article'. I've read it over and it really does come across as favoring one party over the other. It states several times throughout the article that "gamergate harassed", not "accusations of harassment by gamergate" which is what these are. There are several quotes in here pulling quotes by Quinn, Wu, and Sarkeesian as factual observations and not their own stance on the matter. So yes I have paid attention to it. It's a behemoth, and certainly not a fair one.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 22:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

So the "scandal" that set the gaming world aflame is that 1 PC Gamer reviewer failed to disclose a potential COI, Patricia Hernandez was friends with some of the developers whose games she reviewed on a blog, and "several sites agreed on how to handle stories amongst themselves" (huh)? How does any of that count as a scandal? Kaldari (talk) 22:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Scandal" (implying one event) is probably the wrong word; it is fair that the GG side believe there is a conspiracy between (what they call) "SWJ"-aligned developers and journalists that want to force ideas like feminism into the video game industry via video games, and are accomplishing this by using their relationships (any that go beyond a professional one) to get other journalists and the like to elevate the cover of these games to make them seem better than they are as to increase sales/reputation/etc; by doing this, they are "eliminating" hard-core gamers from the gaming community (see their reaction to the "death of gamer" articles). I'm sure there's more nuances to their points but that's why "conspiracy" is a better term (and why they are dismissed as conspiracy theories by the press). The thing is - it is impossible to prove this is or isn't the case without a full investigation of the gaming press by third parties, which hasn't been done. And we do have the members of the industry that have admitted there are ethical problems in the industry, though likely not the same as those GG has stated there are. So we can't say that the conclusions of GG are flat out wrong as fact, but we can including overwhelming press that says they are far-fetched and debunked by those they have accused. --MASEM (t) 00:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

The article states several times that "Gamergate harassed" various people because (a) this is true, (b) this is widely reported by reliable sources, and (c) this is notable. We do not need to say that there were "accusations of harassment by Gamergate" because there is no question whatsoever that those accusations were true. Of course, statements by Quinn, Wu, and Sarkeesian are their statements. There never was a scandal; there's no need to weasel. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:38, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

It is absolutely true and well-reported and notable that "Users under the #gamergate hashtag harassed various people". The problem is that this article wants to called the movement "Gamergate" (as opposed to the Gamergate movement) and then called "users under the #gamergate hashtag" as "Gamergate", such that they appear to be one and the same group, effectively calling the people in the movement directly responsible for the harassment when they have said claimed they are not. Just as we should be very clear that calling the ethics side a movement is not breaking down the walls of NPOV or NOR for the article, we have to be aware that making the distinction between the movement and the harassers is not going to displace the WEIGHT of sources on the harsh criticism of the harassment side. We know the press are accusing them of harassment, but that's not the same as factually saying the movement is engaged in harassment, and hence the need to say it is accusations. --MASEM (t) 22:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Who, exactly, are these Gamergate “people” who say Gamergate is not responsible for harassing female software developers? Are the hundreds of #Gamergate threats all from some other conspiracy that happens to share the same name? Have all the reliable sources, from The New Yorker and the Guardian and the New York Times on down, been duped? By whom? What reliable sources report this, and also report that these "people" speak for or represent Gamergate? All we know of Gamergate are their public actions -- the actions attributed to #Gamergate. They’re not actions "under the hashtag," they’re Gamergate’s actions. If Gamergate wishes to disavow those actions, they can do so, and when reliable sources report that those actions have been convincingly disavowed, we’ll weigh that with the other sources. Until then, the actions are Gamergate actions. The press is accusing no one of harassment; the press is reporting harassment which attributes itself to Gamergate. There is no distinction between the so-called “movement” and harassment: harassment is what Gamergate is known for, and all that it has accomplished. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:22, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

"Are the hundreds of #Gamergate threats all from some other conspiracy that happens to share the same name?" Yes - remember that we have a pretty significant section already that talks about how the word "gamergate" is tainted, advice from the press to those that want to talk ethics that they should abandon that name and use one without the stigma of harassment, and the fact that there is a resistance within the GG movement from moving away from that name. And no, none of the major press source is being dupped, as Rhoark identified last month with his analysis of the sources, these press sources are very clear that there is the movement that is a subset of the users under the hashtag that claim they aren't involved in harassment; the press still blame the movement for enabling the harassment but that's not the same as performing it. So the press does make a distinction, and we need to make that clear. There has been harassment done within the Gamergate controversy, but for the group that considers themselves the GG movement, they claim they aren't part of that. This distinction is clearly documented in mainstream sources, even if no one can figure out the distinct between who is and isn't in the movement. This is why the removal of "movement" baised the article because it removed that necessary distinction, because while the press has accused the broad "Gamergate" aspect of harassment, they have not blamed the movement as fact (though they throw many strong opinions towards that). --MASEM (t) 23:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

And to be clear, here is a prime example of how the highest RS, the NYtimes, presents it: "The threats against Ms. Sarkeesian are the most noxious example of a weekslong campaign to discredit or intimidate outspoken critics of the male-dominated gaming industry and its culture. The instigators of the campaign are allied with a broader movement that has rallied around the Twitter hashtag #GamerGate, a term adopted by those who see ethical problems among game journalists and political correctness in their coverage. The more extreme threats, though, seem to be the work of a much smaller faction and aimed at women". If the NYTimes can identify that there are (at least ) two different groups at play here, there's no reason we should try to avoid that either. --MASEM (t) 00:42, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

This is the root of all conflict around the article. Some editors want to follow the reliable sources, and some want to say Gamergate is exclusively a harassment campaign. Rhoark (talk) 13:39, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't think that's quite true Rhoark (although I agree with the sentiment that there's an attempt to control narrative). I think, more accurately, that people don't want the achievements of the movement overblown compared to what is actually notable i.e. the harassment. Sans harassment, the movement wouldn't warrant an encyclopedic article (it'd be a stub, or a subsection of another article) and so this whole fiasco of an article wouldn't exist. As it stands this article is a narrative piece of "news" which should be dealt with within the respective BLP's (and already is). The rest of the crap needs culling back to Gamer, Sexism in video gaming, Women and video games, Internet activism, Video game journalism etc where it can be dealt within in a historical context.

The real issue with the article is the fact that it exists only because motivated individuals insisted it was notable enough to warrant its own article (it wasn't) and the response was to create the only article that could exist - one about the controversy - cue edit war for the last 12 months. Koncorde (talk) 17:34, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Nearly all the points about moving things to other articles would make much actually WP:FRINGE at those articles (for example, the complains that the GG movement had made about VG journalism is most certainly fringe in the context of video game journalism and would never be covered there). The topic is too diverse in what it involves that separating it into its parts would likely cause much of it to be wiped away. Yet, for better or worse, the GG situation has created change in the video game industry (for example, the industry taking its own retrospective look to recognize issues with diversity within their own ranks), and the harassment and coverage of it by mainstream brought this to mainstream. So this is clearly a notable topic as long as it is covering the whole of the situation and not just the movement. We definitely do not want to try to force the balance of coverage of the movement itself since that simply doesn't exist in depth in reliable sources, but we should be treating the movement with a much more objective tone that does require to read past the vitriol that the press have expressed. It should be stressed that making sure that any "positive" coverage of the movement should still be expressed as claims by the movement or the individual speaking, as that will keep WP from appearing to endorse that view (just as we need to do with the press's take). --MASEM (t) 18:06, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

That's the point Masem, this is "Fringe" strapped together to try and create an article from what is effectively not much of anything of any notability. If it's made a significant change to anything then it should go in the proper wiki articles. If it doesn't go into those wiki articles then what are we doing? If Gamergate is fringe to sexism in video gaming and women and video games and gamer then why do we pipe to those wiki's? Why are they categories for the page? We are not presenting this as fringe. Koncorde (talk) 21:38, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

The GG event is notable - what has transpired has caused major changes in the video game industry. Not in the way GG supporters might have wanted, but in positive directions in terms of addressing existing issues of diversity and sexism. This needs to be a standalone article to document why this is a notable event, and to that point, that means we have to explain the attention that the situation got due to harassment and that we have to explain the group that in central to the events. This is the only article on WP where that makes sense. Being a fringe view for another topic does not mean it is a fringe view in a different article (otherwise, we should delete the Flatearthers article right now). A key point though is while the event is notable, it is very difficult to assign notability on the GG movement; the movement only has coverage due to the event, because of whatever that group is being key actors in the events (harassment, advocacy or otherwise). --MASEM (t) 21:56, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

If there have been major changes then surely those major changes would also be significant to sexism in video gaming and women in video games too? Surely major changes like that are notable? However this article certainly does not outline any quantifiable "major changes", no section of major changes exists, they are not mentioned in the lede, and I can't find any reference to such changes in the body or reflected in RS, so to what are you referring? The Gaming industry response section in the article basically has 6 examples of people saying "we're not commenting, but harassment is bad", an update of ethics policies by the Escapist and Arkham Knight trolling. Your argument carries no water.

You cannot make an argument for fringe and also make an argument for major changes to the very topics about which it is fringe, we shouldn't be piping to those articles or categories if we're saying that none of this content has weight. If it has no weight other than in the context of harassing 3 BLP individuals then what is the notability?

There could be a very grown up discussion about the impact of gamergate, or their can be this awful edit-warring article, but in its current guise this article is poorly written and full of its own self importance in a way only a viral internet thing can be. Koncorde (talk) 06:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

First, it is going to take time for the positive changes that the industry stated they need to make to actually occur to where they can be documented (eg the first interesting data point I suspect will be the gender ratios/percents of professionals working in the industry). We have some statements of companies being proactive, but its not something that happens overnight.

Second, GG is the net result of something that has been lurking in the industry and community for some time, and as such, its result and impact has been a moment of catharsis for many involved. The event touches (either due to being an issue or that it is suggested by either side to be an issue) on many many areas from sexism, harassment, feminish, ethics, the video game industry's immaturity, games as works of art, social messages, and so on. It is not an isolated thing: for example, while sexism in video gaming should include a mention of GG, GG is nothing like the examples given there, such as the harassment Sarkaasian got when she launched the KS for the Women vs Tropes series 2 years ago; that is pretty clearly isolated as sexism. GG has hit a much broader range of topics that it can't be broken out to its components in the manner you describe without making it difficult to understand the full thing.

Finally, given that there's been a strong stress on using the most reliable sources, its very hard to consider this just some "viral internet thing". I've written articles on viral phenomenon before, and trust me, this article is far more stronger in sourcing than any of those to demonstrate the importance and significance of what transpired instead of a random spur-of-the-moment thing. There is still improvements to be made but its far from the self-importance that I've seen put in viral meme articles. --MASEM (t) 14:00, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

First, your point is ridiculous. There are no reliable sources in this article suggesting any such change is about to happen (we have many reliable sources suggesting it was already happening) or that it can be attributed to gamergate and not wider cultural impact of social justice (against which gamergate, MRA movements and the like are a symptom - not the origin). This is dictionary definition of fluff. By your own admission you have "some statements of companies being proactive, but its not something that happens overnight" - right, so you're admitting that there are no major changes. So why does this exist? What exactly is the point of traipsing through reams of documented harassment?

Second, how can you at once say it has been lurking in the industry and then not also see that what we have here are the grafted remains of 5 related topics thrust together with the bloated narrative of the harassment. If it has been lurking in the industry, and yet excised from those same articles, then its true context is lost in place of trying to establish a new context where gamergate actually matters. You see you don't need to understand the full thing for gamergate to be mentioned, in the same way we don't need to explain Jack Thompson or Donald Trump to understand their comments. Crafting an article around harassment was needless. When the movement actually achieves anything let it stand on its own two feet.

Finally, it is exactly a viral thing. The whole name of the subject is a catchphrase built of a self replicating meme the "-gate" suffix, and numerous new phrases and adoptions. It has no popular traction other than within its own subculture. Numerous reliable sources talk about gamergate - but you will note they never talk about it in the absence of the greater context. This entire article is deprived of context. It is neutered, a mule, it cannot grow anything of its own that wont immediately have more relevance to either the protagonists or the movement itself. This is the article equivalent of talking about the Beer Hall Putsch by referring only to the march and not the wider social implications.

The more accurate truth is that this is a sump of material, filled with innuendo and unclear references to larger topics with all coherence stripped out of it in order to justify having an article with the name gamergate in it. Koncorde (talk) 17:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Given the RSes covering GG and the issues involved, this is really not a compatible view of the situation. No editor is mashes this various issues together - this is the fallout from the various angles that the RS are covering it. Other points: on my first point about change in the industry, I implied that this is change caused by the GG situation but not necessary the change that proGG were trying to ask for. None of the industry changes that have been documented in this article are predicated on the demand for better ethics (outside of the disclosure policies), in as far as we can document these. That's still means its important. It is the industry making the most of a bad situation. On the second point about this being a symptom of long-standing problems, sources have pointed this out, harassment, sexism have been issues plaguing the industry, and the public coverage of GG brought them to light; there have been problems with ethics in the industry though not those identified by GG supporters. These are all points our sources have brought up. No editor is going out of their way to force inclusion of something coat-racking off GG - these secondary sources have framed the GG situation as dealing with this issue which is good material for us to include.

On the final point: if there was zero harassment involved with GG, but we still had a group of users calling themselves GG and pushing for ethics changes, I would have expected nearly no coverage of any sort to have an article, given that their views are generally fringe to any other pre-existing topic on WP. (As a data point, keep in mind that there are cases of harassment before GG started against people like Sarkeesian and others that had some coverage in gaming sources but absolutely nothing in the mainstream. It was when that harassment turned to violent threats at USU that the mainstream press sat up and took notice. If those threats never happened, this still might have gone too far under the radar to have an article). The thing is that harassment and threats happens, it attracted public attention, and it would be completely ignorant of us not to cover this as an encyclopedia. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that the bulk of this article is not about the fringe theories that the GG supporters have presented, but about the wider perception of what has gone done. I would agree that if we were doing what some of the earlier pro-GG editors wanted on this page (before and at ArbCom) to try to insert the complete statements and manifests that GG supporters have made, and then coat-racking the bit of criticism of GG atop that, that would have been a problem. But no, instead, we have a situation that has been the subject of major discussion in the press and academic sources, and with a few avenues to try to explain why the pro GG is arguing what they argue. That is far from what you are describing. --MASEM (t) 18:15, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Koncorde hits the nail on the head here. Protonk (talk) 18:37, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

Submitted for your consideration: Gamergate goes to AfD and, after much discussion, the consensus is Delete. (Yes, we are in the Twilight Zone.) Never mind that it's hard to imagine reaching this consensus; just assume it's there. The next day, someone's bound to write a weblog post or two. Someone’s bound to Twitter. Some reporters are going to call Brianna Wu and Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn for comment. There will be news stories: “Misplaced Pages deletes Gamergate!" There will be subheads: feminists banned, history rewritten, critics silenced. You might not think that fair, you might not think it just, but you can see the headlines. The Guardian, Gawker, DailyKOS, Scalzi, Will Wheaton, and off we go. Within the week, people would have ample sources for The ‘Gamergate Controversy’ Controversy. And here we’d be.

For better or worse, the trolls who decided to launch an “operation” to harass women in computing caught the imagination of the world. They didn’t secure the praise of the world, for which they long, but everyone knows about Gamergate and its harassment campaign -- and a ton of people know about Gamergate and its campaign to pervert Misplaced Pages. I doubt this page could be deleted, but if it were, the public outcry would itself be a notable controversy. Shall we save the project a lot of time and trouble by avoiding a debate which Gamergate cannot win, and if it did somehow win, would itself likely generate a new page that is no better for Gamergate? MarkBernstein (talk) 18:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

As long we are clear that the article has to be framed around the history of the harassments and threats, the results it has had on the people involved and the industry as a whole, and the analysis of why this situation occurred - the bulk of what the reliable sources on GG present - there's no reason to consider deletion. We've certainly got heated disagreements about what the rest of the content of this article should be and other tone and style issues, but even with what we have, the wealth of sources documenting this topic as I have framed it above is all very much encyclopedic and still summarizes the situation very well. Deletion just because editors can't agree is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. --MASEM (t) 18:28, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

To add another (unnecessary) opinion, it occurs to me that a big problem is the effort of the article to describe gamergate as an ongoing phenomenon. On a purely anecdotal level, I have noticed more and more references to GG in the past tense. I would definitely agree with this; I think all of GG's notability is now in the rear-view mirror. I am certainly cognizant of the problems with "cutting off" the article, but the sooner this mess is understood as a discrete event which is over, the better by my lights. Dumuzid (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

There's no discussion here of deletion, I am suggesting it's a crap article written poorly of insufficient depth or content. Marks example is pure drama, as if the existence of the harassment in and of itself justifies a need to talk about the harassment on an encyclopedia at great length and cite each instance in a narrative form. It's the worst possible justification "well we're going to get trolled so we may as well have a crap article about it". Really, that's the solution? Get a grip people, we don't do this sort of crap about any other controversy.

At the moment the notability of gamergate is within the context of harassing people. In the context of those peoples own articles the vast amount of detail here would never be allowed as undue, unnecessary, and overwhelming. The sections dedicated to "reaction" pieces from the media serve no purpose other than to pillory the whole and further reinforce the established viewpoint, we quote at length but offer almost no analysis (some of the more reliable sources have attempted to be more high brow about it, but significant majority of sources are just mirrors of the same talking points) while the discussions of gamergate are wholly within the context of harassing people.

At what point will all this get talked about in its context? It needs the vast majority of its content paring back and discussing within the context it is delivered with due weight to the greater topics that are at hand, rather than justifying talking about minimally significant events because they are notable within the context of gamergate.

With regards to Dumuzids point - this is also an element of the same issue. Lets start treating this article as a mature topic and cull the drama. Writing an encyclopaedic article will require making a genuine effort to expand upon the larger topics with context and due weight on those primary-pages. Koncorde (talk) 22:45, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I would agree that while the sources should not be lost, several details and a lot of the analysis section (particularly on opinion points) can be heavily trimmed down. We had to go through and do a lot of quote stripping before, but we're still there where a sentence seems to be devoted to each major opinion which really isn't necessary. But to me, the major concepts that are discussed in the analysis still need to be addressed, because as I noted above, GG is an intersection of several different issues in VG and journalism and the RSes have gone into depth on these. There is also a need to be a bit careful and stay detailed on certain parts of the history due to the complications between who actually did what, BLP issues, and the like, and that summarizing too far may report something incorrectly. But I do want to stress that the overall situation is not as trivial as Koncode describes. This is one of those major events that is affecting the billion-dollar video game industry, it's not a simple TMZ-type celebrity scandal that we'd normally just sweep away if no major sources cover it.

Also I would support based on the present sources calling this a past event, but I would caution that we're far from being able to write it as a mature topic. Things are still happened, questions are still unanswered. We can't write it like it is resolved (even if the press wants to put it to bed) as there are still academics exploring the behavior and like from this. It is going to take years to actually reflect how GG affected the industry at the long-term. At which point we can come back and cull down if it really was a tiny road bump or expand out if it had serious impact. That's the benefit of WP being a living document and we can follow the sources. It is easier to trim down after the fact when we have added information when it was fresh, rather than to try to build up later and struggle to recall the details. --MASEM (t) 23:17, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

I imagine that Gamergate would prefer lots of the article to be trimmed -- especially the sections critical of its harassment "operations". That’s not going to happen. We might want to cull all the most shameful episodes as "drama", but that’s not going to happen, either, especially as law enforcement becomes more engaged. I suppose that Gamergate would be happy if Misplaced Pages suggested that the harassment was all in the past, except new reports continue to surface -- and there's no other reason to talk about Gamergate because it hasn't accomplished anything else of note. This entire discussion has wandered off into meta-land, predicting what the future of the article might someday be; that belongs on the meta page or Village Pump, not here. MarkBernstein (talk) 23:53, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

It's about improving the article (at least, individual editor's opinions of how to improve it), so 100% this discussion belongs here. --MASEM (t) 00:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

• Note that the attacks on Schafer are specifically described as 'harassment' and 'abuse' in the two articles used on sources for it, respectively; we have to cover that accurately, when reliable sources us those terms. --Aquillion (talk) 02:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Attacks on Fish

So I tried to fix this mess of a sentence. If we really must say it was done by 4chan members, maybe add a new sentence. We also don't have to say it was "attributed" to 4chan. We can say the attackers claimed to be 4chan members and that it was in retaliation for Fish's support of Quinn. — Strongjam (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

We absolutely need to keep out that phrase in that diff - it is a BLP violation (even if RSes have reiterated that claim, including the Boston Magazine article on Quinn and Gjoni). --MASEM (t) 14:02, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't have an issue with Strongman's suggestion, but Masem is emphatically wrong. If reliable sources tell us something then if it's pertinent to the facts, it is absolutely not against the BLP to write about it. That's BLP 101. --TS 14:20, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

This particular phrase, while used in the source, is probably best if left out of the article. — Strongjam (talk) 14:28, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

The phrase that is included is a reference from Gjoni's post that is an accusation against Quinn and (what he believed) her cheating on him. While we can source the phrase to RSes, it is one of those accusations that has very little bearing on the actual events of GG while also a BLP that is never addressed/commented on by sources (compared to the initial accusation about Quinn and Grayson that has been thoroughly dismissed). --MASEM (t) 14:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

(Specifically you can read what I mean at this link Boston Mag, page 2 of the article, to understand why we absolutely should not use this phrase.) --MASEM (t) 14:31, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

While I agree with TS that Masem is wrong about it being a BLP violation, I think this is an error in terminology rather than substance. While the phrase is unquestionably well sourced, I think the WP:BLP exhortations to avoid gossip and to write conservatively make a compelling case to keep it out of the article. Dumuzid (talk) 14:34, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

To be clear, how it was included (as the name of the group) alone and no other known context, it wouldn't be a BLP violation, but with the knowledge of the origin of that phrase and its implications, we should avoid including it both as a BLP issue (particularly since the point is not addressed/countered by anyone involved so it is wild speculation/accusation) and as being a trivial part of the situation overall. It doesn't matter the name of the group that doxxed Fish, only that he was doxxed and the apparent origin of the doxxing. --MASEM (t) 14:42, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

When the name of the group itself perpetuates an attack, then it might be best to leave it out per BLP. In my opinion, I'm not sure it needs to be in the article unless a consensus of editors agree that there is a compelling reason to include it. Basically, I guess you should ask whether or not just attributing it to 4chan is sufficient. Gamaliel (talk) 15:07, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps then the wording should mention that they named themselves in a fashion to personally attack Quinn, but definitely keep the attribution to 4chan in the article. Personally I see little harm it does to point out the name as it was a prominent part of the harassment Quinn received and articles certainly didn't omit mentioning it, but if BLP is a concern here I can see that as well.--Kung Fu Man (talk) 20:16, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Georgina Young

I notice someone reinserted a reference to her opinion on the controversy -- who is she? Why are we citing her opinions here? It feels to me like we're giving her WP:UNDUE weight by pulling one opinion from her from an interview and dropping it in the article. --Aquillion (talk) 03:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Aquillion on this, seems undue to me. @Kung Fu Man: please self-revert. Page is under 1RR restrictions and this is at least your second revert I count. — Strongjam (talk) 03:12, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I'm going to press this one: she's being cited in the capacity as a games journalist for TechRaptr and for her statements regarding Notyourshield. She was present in both Huffington Post interviews for her opinion, and offers a balancing point to a section, and to my knowledge the Huffington Post is still a citable source. I will also point out this very section cites Arthur Chu as a source...yet this is considered WP:UNDUE?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Arthur Chu is clearly notable and writes for a reliable source, and we should be careful of creating a false balance by over-weighting an opinion. — Strongjam (talk) 03:23, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this. TechRaptor is simply not as reliable as Salon -- it lacks an established reputation for fact-checking, for instance. Singling one (and only one) voice from an interview like that is plainly giving her WP:UNDUE weight, especially if you feel that you're doing it to "offer a balancing point." We're not supposed to include obscure opinions simply because they provide what an editor feels is a "balancing point"; that's false balance and a violation of WP:VALID. Neutrality means that we need to cover aspects as they appear in reliable, mainstream sources; if an opinion is too obscure to get significant coverage there, then it is WP:UNDUE to highlight it. --Aquillion (talk) 03:31, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

But we're not discussing an obscure opinion: if this was on TechRaptr itself I wouldn't cite it. However it was done in an interview on a website we can cite as a reliable source. The Huffington Post asked for their opinions, debated them, and posted the interview. In effect despite the Post being a valid source for the article, we're saying if the person interviewed isn't notable enough it cannot be used? But yet an opinion piece somehow is?--Kung Fu Man (talk) 03:38, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd invite you to have a look at Misplaced Pages:Interviews and see what you think afterward. Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dumuzid (talk • contribs) 03:55, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Hi Dumuzid, That is a very interesting essay; I extend my compliments to the authors. Having read it in its entirety (and fixed a typo), I'm not sure, however, that it detracts from the points that Kung Fu Man is making here. Would you be able to identify the sections that you feel are pertinent, and how they are so? Thanks in advance. - Ryk72 11:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

@Ryk72: certainly. I don't think anything in that essay is particularly dispositive, but on balance, in my opinion it tends to militate towards leaving out Ms. Young's interview. I think it should be, in essence, treated like a self-published source, and the sort of free-wheeling nature of this interview does not give me great faith in its editorial strictures (this is not exactly investigative journalism). Thus, for me, this is a bit like citing a YouTube video by Ms. Young or some such. It would be fine for certain uses, but as proposed here, it strikes me as being accorded undue weight, if not downright unreliable (in the Misplaced Pages sense, of course). Of course, that's simply my opinion. And I'll actually even sign this comment! Thanks. Dumuzid (talk) 12:07, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Fortune: Despite industry growth, game developers worry about jobs

"Diversity has long been an issue in gaming, but it’s one that has sprung to the forefront in the past year, thanks in part to the Gamergate controversy. The intimidation of and attacks on women who spoke out about equality in the video game industry actually proved to be an amplifier for the cause of diversity in gaming, forcing video game companies to look at their own practices." http://fortune.com/2015/08/06/video-game-developer-jobs/ ForbiddenRocky (talk) 07:15, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

aljazeera: The invisible hordes of online feminist bullies (opinion)

http://america.aljazeera.com/opinions/2015/8/the-invisible-hordes-of-online-feminist-bullies.html ForbiddenRocky (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Sure, because Al-Jazeera is not in the least bit misogynist, the ruling family of Qatar - its owners - are famously progressive and supportive of gender equality. Oh, wait, no they aren't. Guy (Help!) 22:11, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, having already read this, the article is clearly written to chastise the GG supporters for their claims that there's feminists out there to indoctrine the video game world (eg in line with nearly every other press source). That said, I didn't see anything to really grab on that is a unique opinion that other sources already offer for this. --MASEM (t) 22:16, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Fair enough. Guy (Help!) 23:14, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't know if Al-Jazeera America is a reliable source or not, but it would strike me that the political beliefs of its owners (odious though they may be) are, at best, a subsidiary inquiry in an overall RS analysis. Dumuzid (talk) 01:01, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually Al Jazeera has a pretty good reputation for solid journalism in my country. Is Al Jazeera America supposed to be some kind of rogue version, "odious" somebody called it in a comment above? Is the Arabian name somehow causing some people to rush to judgement? I would honestly expect it to be a reliable source, all things being equal.

This piece is commentary by Megan Condis. Why is she? Here she is:

• Megan Condis blog.

A relatively minor commentator, so probably not a suitable source. --TS 01:15, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages controversial topics
• Biography articles of living people
• All unassessed articles
• B-Class video game articles
• Mid-importance video game articles
• WikiProject Video games articles
• B-Class Feminism articles
• Low-importance Feminism articles
• WikiProject Feminism articles
• B-Class Journalism articles
• Low-importance Journalism articles
• WikiProject Journalism articles
• B-Class Internet culture articles
• Low-importance Internet culture articles
• WikiProject Internet culture articles