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Talk:Hindutva/Archive1

Who is a Hindutva?

The word Hindutva in common usage refers to one who is a Hindu extremist, fanatic or nationalist. This may not be the definition that one who calls themselves a Hindutva may agree on, but it the definition that the world understands from it's most common usage.

Interestingly the term Hindutva is also very commonly used in a simaler way that Communist was used during the McCarthy era in the United States. There is a witch hunt towards any person who has anything remotely nice to say about Hinduism as being a member of Hindutva; for example saying "I did some yoga today and it felt good" immediatly puts the subject under suspician. This is especially true if the subject is of South Asian decent (the term South Asian being the proper term, as Indian may be considered a racist term as it sounds very simaler to the derogatory appelation 'hindoo' or "Hindu" which so offends the many communities of that sub-continent).

Other ways of being labled Hindutva is by signing petitions against the harmless fun poked by California class textbooks that say "Have you seen any monkeys around you" in reference to the monkey (non-capitalised for text book accuracy)'god,' Hanuman. Even YOU can be considered an Hindutva for unwittingly using the appelation "guru" when referring to a computer specialist that you respect. Hindutva is a widely used term that you can use quickly to deflate any argument that you wish, the possibilities are endless.

Views on Hindutva

Hindu Nationalism is much scarier than the Nazi's, KKK, Khmer Rouge, Muslim Fundamentalist Terrorist groups and have killed more people than any of the above combined and so any article on WIKI that is connected to hinduism must feature a link on here. Dark skinned people should never have a reason to be proud, those savages!

Who has written this rubbish, this utterly racist blabber? Hindutva itself is definitely bad and horrible, but caling it scarier than Naziasm, KK, and even Muslim terrorists is the work of an egghead. How has Hindutva killed more people than the above combined, except in the anonymous's dream or figment of imagination (or cooked up proofs)?Cygnus_hansa 08:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

What if every article on Arabs links to terrorism or every article on Christianity links to KKK how would you feel? I checked the Zionism article out here and it seemed quite fair and I can learn about Judaism without any reference to the palestinian conflict quite well on this wikipedia. If a slave in the south before the Civil War raises his voice, must he be now considered an African American extremist?

There is something very suspicious going on here. Ok, call me an extremist, frame me for doing something I never did. Most Hindus won't even kill animals. But if you see words of protests on these boards, try to understand where they are coming from.

FWIW, some views on Hindutva are bit complex. IMO and AFAIK, there are 2 kinds of people: 1. Hindutva people who claim themselves as *true* Hindus/Hinduism followers, 2. Hindu people who don't accept Hindutva people (some people may even believe that Hindutva people are corrupting Hinduism and their philosophy. But, this view is bit less). Probably mentioning these two ideas may be worthful for this article. --Rrjanbiah 04:59, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I don't know where your 'this view is bit less' comes from. Hindutva is not religion, it is communalism. The brand of Hindutva preached is clearly not Hindu religion since it bases itself around creating Indian identities based not only Hinduism but Buddhism, Jainism and Sikhism and race consciousness. Why is it so difficult a concept to comprehend that no one calls the Christian right movement in America, for instance, a religion, but a group of extreme political views based on Christian communalism. The KKK, for example, is not a branch of Christianity but a group of extreme Christians. Hindutva is not a branch of Hinduism but a group of extreme Hindus. Both have their philosophies, and both claim to draw inspiration from religious philosophies and texts that are part of their respective religions. No one's arguing about their religion, but about whether their brand of social politics is religion or communalism. It is disappointing that similar communities in the West and the East are held to completely different standards. That is just bias.--LordSuryaofShropshire 13:20, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I understand that you belong to the second category I mentioned. --Rrjanbiah 13:40, 29 Apr 2004 (UTC)

THanks for your acknowledgement. But I'm not trying to convince you of my view. Rather, I'm making a statement that in the general community of journalists, academics, in social science and in the minds of Hindus in general, while no one argues that Hindutvadis aren't Hindu, the movement of Hindutva is never identified as part of the Hindu religion but as a political extremist communal movement of Hindus. --LordSuryaofShropshire 13:57, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Debate: Hindutva... nationalist ideology a la KKK or branch of Hinduism a la Vedanta

Alright, everyone's making these bogus claims about identifying Hinduism with Hindutva. Let's hear it from biased, unbiased sources alike, and straight from the horse's mouth. What is Hindutva? Is it a religious stream? Or is it a communalist, political movement?

1. "Hindutva or Cultural Nationalism presents the BJP's conception of Indian nationhood, as explained in the following set of articles. It must be noted that Hindutva is a nationalist, and not a religious or theocratic, concept." --- SOURCE: BJP PHilosophy Statement, BJP Homepage
2. Angana Chatterji is a professor of Social and Cultural Anthropology at the California Institute of Integral Studies in San Francisco calls Hindutva "nationalist ideology" and never idenitifies as Hindu religious philosophy because it is clearly a communal movement SOURCE:
3. "Last but not the least is the issue of Hindutva, the BJP ideology that the party swears by. Hindutva is a matter of grave concern not only for the Indian Muslims. The majority of Indian Hindus being temperamentally secular themselves have not accepted the ideology of Hindutva that believes in the supremacy of Hindu faith over other faiths. If the majority of Hindus would have voted for Hindutva, the BJP would have been in power without the crutches of the NDA. Ironically, Vajpayee had no word to spare about the rights and wrongs of his party ideology that clearly militates against the basic character of Indian constitution and Hindu cosmopolitan ethos." - Zafar Agha of the Indian Muslim Council
4. "The BJP is imbued with a far-right ideology that has its roots in the fascism of the 1930s. Trumpeting the slogan "one nation, one people, one culture," the party promotes Hindutva or "Hindu identity," a concept based on Hindu racial purity." Daphnee Dion-Viens (http://www.alternatives.ca/article231.html)
5. "The definition of a Hindu as given by Savarkar was that India had to be his pitribhumi (ancestral land) and his punyabhumi (the land of his religion). A Hindu therefore could not be descended from alien invaders. Since H indus sought a lineal descent from the Aryans, and a cultural heritage, the Aryans had to be indigenous. This definition of the Hindu excluded Muslims and Christians from being indigenous since their religion did not originate in India." "The Hindutva obsession with identity is not a problem related to the early history of India but arises out of an attempt to manipulate identities in contemporary politics." - Romila Thapar, Kluge chair holder in US Library of Congress (http://www.flonnet.com/fl1720/17200150.htm) .
6. Among others, an anti-war site (www.why-war.com), Chetan Bhatt, Senior Lecturer in Sociology, Goldsmiths College, University of London, see Hindutva as nationalist ideology, not religion itself.
7. An article on Hindutva vs. Hinduism: Semitizing Hinduism by Hindutva

Thus far, people from multiple ideological backgrounds all see Hindutva as political, nationalist ideology with racial and socialist, even fascist ideologies, using contorted and marginal interpretations Hindu culture and Aryan race theories to bolster themselves. The only people who see Hindutva as Hindu religion itself are a couple of Hindutvadis, and even they are split. Savarkar, who coined Hindutva, justified killing, even massacres, if done for revenge. You cannot find me one Hindu text or movement, especially Kshatriya creeds in the Bhagavad Gita, Ramayana etc. which accepts this. These kind of ideas are completely against the Hindu-Vedic creeds. How can you reconcile this, and current scholarship regarding Hindutva politics? Note: I am not arguing that Hindutvadis are not Hindus; they clearly are. But I am arguing that the majority of views see Hindutva as separate from Hinduism. Also, I am not just blustering an opinion, nor am I just putting up a wall of dogmatism. I am supporting my argument. I would like to see Graft, Sam Spade or Rjanbiah, proffer some credible political theorists, social scientists, or contemporary historians who identify Hindutva as a religious movement and not a political movement based on religious identity. --LordSuryaofShropshire 14:41, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Anyone interested in this debate on Hindus' opinions and Hindutva see this Outlook India poll: Hindutva, Hindus Pool --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:00, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

These are poll highlights (link above) that came from interviews conducted in major cities all around India (Delhi, Chennai, Mumbai, Kolkata, Bangalore, Ahmedabad) with a breakdown of people as follows: "A total of 738 Hindus were interviewed of which upper-caste respondents were 42 percent, backwards 35 percent and Dalits constituted 23 percent."

I believe that they prove that Hindutva policies and ideas about Hinduism and Indian national identity, including their actions in places like Gujurat, are not favored, and Hindus in Indian overwhelmingly separate nationalist Hindutva from the Hindu religion - POLL HIGHLIGHTS:

1. 68% feel that the most good for Hinduism has been done by people like Mahatma Gandhi and Swami Vivekananda.
2. 76% of Hindus favor a 'secular democracy' over a Hindu state.
3. 78% feel the Gujurat massacre was unjustified.
4. 66% feel comfortable with the idea of Muslim neighbors.
5. 79% feel Hindutva has given Hinduism a bad name.

These ideas, held by a majority of multi-class Hindus around India, show that Hindutva is clearly not in line with the majority of views of followers of Hindu religion. --LordSuryaofShropshire 19:33, Apr 29, 2004 (UTC)

Be that as it may, the argument is, at least as far as I am concerned, not whether Hindutva is a religion, but whether Hindutva philosophy can be said to be built upon Hinduism. I appreciate your Naziism analogy, but I do think it's overdrawn. Christianity had a relatively minor role in Nazi philosophy and rhetoric, whereas Hinduism is absolutely central to Hindutva.

Now, I've made the argument above that Hindutva can find adequate basis for a lot of its positions in Hindu canon, but I don't think this means (as I've hinted) that as a political philosophy Hindutva is -derived from- Hinduism. I think it's a particular outgrowth of other philosophies that draws heavily upon Hindu ideas to cloak those other ideologies. I've been reading through my "Bunch of Thoughts", which unfortunately is not very revealing - it's an exegesis of a fully-formed philosophy, but it doesn't shed light on the origins of the philosophy.

Ultimately Hindutva is a nationalist philosophy; the job of RSS is to stoke that national character and build national pride. This is not a Hindu concept, since desh-prem is not possible without a desh, which really did not exist in any sense before the British showed up (in the same way that the feudal kingdoms of Europe were not Nations).

But, as my reading of Golwalkar has demonstrated to me, Hindutva incessantly seeks justification from a single source - Golwalkar continually examines outside philosophies, but the only authority he will admit is Hindu saints (e.g. Ramakrishna Paramhansa is frequently quoted) and scripture. This is the essential point I want to get across - Hindutva is not Hinduism, but it does draw from that stream.

An apt analogy can be drawn to many American conservatives (of the Rush Limbaugh variety), who eulogize the "founding fathers", the framers of the Constitution, but are frequently at odds with the positions of those "fathers". However, this would NEVER cause them to repudiate their reverence for those figures, since they form the central basis of a coherent mythology and are critical to the movement. Graft 02:27, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)

An apt analogy is the KKK:Christianity as Hindutva:Hinduism.--LordSuryaofShropshire 03:01, Apr 30, 2004 (UTC)

Why Hindutva ?

People here have vented their misplaced concern about RSS and its ideology of Hindutva and try to white-wash it as a communal and racist organisation like KKK, Nazi and Muslim terrorist organisation that we see today in the middle-east. It’s true that Hindus are secular by nature and they don’t believe in forcible conversion that is been followed by other religions during past. From time immemorial this religion had no name since it was the first of all religion and mother most of the major religion like Buddhism, Sikhism and Jainism. In spite of constant pillaging and plunder by foreign rulers and country, this country stood test of time and still grows strong. This strength is derived for the individual factor called Hindutva or “Culture Nationalism of Hindus” as quoted by Deen Dayal Upadyaya the modern Hindu thinker and the founding father of BJP.

In his famous work, 'Glimpses of World History', Jawaharlal Nehru wrote to the same effect by attributing India's integrity to some 'invisible silken bond' that from time immemorial has united the people of India from Kanyakumari to the Himalayas. There is no such thing as an invisible silken bond that unites India. Such vague reasons, especially from a self-proclaimed agnostic like Nehru, hide the real fact that the integrity of India really springs from the sole reason of India being the sacred land of tolerant Hindus who, despite the language, caste and other differences among them, take pride in being, first and foremost, devout followers of ancient Hindu religion.

It is the de facto 'Hindutva' among Indians, from north to south and east to west, which lies at the root of the Indian integrity. But for the tolerant Hindu majority, India would have disintegrated long back. It is for this realistic reason that BJP has been striving hard to put 'Hindutva' above the foreign concept of secularism that can only damage Indian integrity in the long run. 'Hindutva' embraces Indians of all faiths and excludes none. It also stands for eradication of the scourge of untouchability that is an embarrassment to Hindu religion.

All attempts in the past to break up India on the grounds of race or religion died a natural death. For instance, the formation of DK and DMK was originally intended to pursue the goal of an independent Dravida Nadu which floundered at the very start since there were no takers for the same in Andhra, Karnataka and Kerala. The so called 'Khalistan' movement engineered by Pakistan met with the same fate. The insurgency by the rebels in Nagaland and Mizoram that was fuelled by the mischievous foreign missionaries in India has had little success. In all such cases, it is the 'Hindutva' spirit that won the battle against separatist tendencies.

'Hindutva' is not anti-muslim or anti-christian. If there is one religion in the world that abhors proselytization and is based on tolerance and respect for other faiths, it is Hinduism. The term Hindu fundamentalism is therefore a misnomer and a contradiction in terms. There were no non-Hindu minorities in India prior to the muslim invasion of India from the north west and the start of British colonialism which alone are responsible for creating the muslim and christian minority in India through conversion of Hindus by force and enticement. Despite the above fact, 'Hindutva' does not consider Indian muslims as some aliens from Saudi Arabia or other muslim countries in the Middle East. It recognizes that India is as much the home of the Indian muslims as it is for the majority Hindus.

The sole concern of 'Hindutva' is that Islamic militancy and fundamentalism that is worrying the entire world should not sow seeds of separatism among Indian muslims who have shared a common cultural bondage and lived amicably with the majority Hindus for centuries. There is a real threat of militant Islam in Pakistan in the west and Bangladesh in the east posing a danger to India's integrity. Under the circumstances, the concept of 'Hindutva' championed by the BJP is timely and appropriate for safeguarding Indian integrity. BJP should be hailed and not condemned for its 'Hindutva' approach to restore the age-old national unity and integrity. --Kautilyaa Speaking 12:33, Feb 18, 2004 (GMT)

Hindutva is a legitimate expression of the concerns of Hindus

I agree strongly with this statement, and find much of the "debate" on this page to be rude and offensively anti-Hindu. Sam 21:54, 4 Jun 2004 (UTC)

The article linked to here, possibly offers some more insight to anyone else following this debate: The invention of the Hindu - Pankaj Mishra --Phil R 03:33, 23 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I just read the article. It is an interesting view, but there are several points that are misleading. Off the top of my head, his comments about more inter-Vishnu-Shiva worshipper tensions than Hindu-Muslim is ludicrous. In the most objective of reports thousands of Hindus were killed or forcefully converted by Muslim invaders and a jiziyah tax levied for most of Mughal rule, reinstated by Aurangzeb inspite of Akbar's influence. One major outbreak of Shaiva-Vaishnav tensions in a fight is well-known, and that to but a mote in comparison to the Muslim-Hindu dynamic. As for modernized Hinduism, Hinduism represents Vedic and Vedantic progressions with nastika orthodox schools and Mishra tends to forget the revival of purer Vedantic and Yogic Hinduism, philosophies whose rationalism exceeds (in pure philosophical terms) that of monotheist religions with their pure monist bases. Also, the use of "Hindu" as an appellation for followers of vedic/vedantic religion is to be seen as far back as in the 15th century in someone as well-known as Kabir's writings. It seems a stretch to say that Hindu is first used as a term by the British. A pretty close association between Vedic schools and non-Vedic schools was known before the Qu'ran was written.

While I have listed these objections, I would say that ideas of syncretistic religion seem to have also been ignored. While I can't say which 'Sufi' saint Mishra was referencing, saints like Sheikh Muhammad, Kabir and Shirdi Sai Baba, none of whom could be called Hindu, Muslim, Bhakti, Vedantist or Sufi definitively are well-documented (and often worshipped or revered) without hesitancy by Hindus and Muslims alike. "all paths" mentalities are common to Hindus and part of the religious outlook. I would agree that polarizing of communal groups like Muslims and Hindus has a lot to do with British and partition politics, but this has less (in my mind) to do with artificial religious tweaking by outsiders than mere communal markers. As for Sam Spade's comment, I don't know how he saw anything 'anti-Hindu' in the foregoing discussions. --LordSuryaofShropshire 04

13, Jun 23, 2004 (UTC)

deletions

Why so many deletions of seemingly good content? Do you say what you deleted was false, or what? (I refer specifically to this, but also generally refer to a number of other deltions). Sam 18:03, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Well, mostly because I didn't consider them to be good content. In the case of the definition, I'm not sure why it was included... do you mean to say that it's difficult to define "Hindutva"? That there's dispute over who should carry the label or that adherents disagree on what it means? I don't think this is true, any more than it's true of any label (e.g. "Fascist" or "Communist"), and thus such equivocation is unnecessary and distracting, and needlessly confuses what is a relatively unclouded thing. Graft 18:44, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

I find it helpful when we have discussion like the above, where extreme insults are being hurled around. The definition provides some objectivity, IMO. Sam 18:54, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Graft: I don't it's as cut and dried as you seem to project. Can you give me a good approximation, just be state and general socio-economic background, who are Hindutvadis? As voting suggests, it's not just "middle-class Hindus." It's not at all aligned with the religion as the preponderance see Hinduism. As for Sam Spade, I don't know where these insults you're talking about are? Earlier, you spoke of prejudice against Hinduism evident in the discussion and I'd like to know exactly to what you're referring. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:09, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

What is offensive

Your comparisons to Nazism and KKK, etc. Perhaps these were made due to cultural ignorance, but due to your worldliness (your personal information suggests you to be well travelled) and obvious intellect I somehow doubt that. Sam 20:27, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

See, what you said about 'perhaps cultural ignorance' is insulting. What I was doing was creating an analogue between the relationship between Hinduism and Hindutva, comparing it to that between Christianity and the KKK. It is clear that Hindutva, like the KKK, relies strongly on religious texts, figures and symbols (Ram and the Cross, Vivekananda and Jesus, Mahabharta and the Bible, etc.) and yet they project an often violent and communalist framework which excludes them from inclusion as a mere 'sect' of Hinduism or Christianity but in reality reveals them to be social groups. I think you need to read what I wrote more thoughtfully. --LordSuryaofShropshire 20:35, Jun 28, 2004 (UTC)

I see it for what it is, anti-hindutva, and anti-hindu. I think you need to be more thoughtful. Sam 05:08, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sam Spade: I think you're blissfully myopic and have no clue about true discernment. You're under a horrific haze of misapprehension of you think that I am anti-Hindu. You may bask in a self-righteous crapulent idea of your moral and politically correct superiority, but my posts had more to do with distancing the pure religion and spiritual system of Hinduism from the proven racist fundamentalism of Hindutva than anything else. You may be right that I dislike Hindutva, but to say I'm anti-Hindu is a gross (and misplaced) presumption of understanding on your part. Frankly, you're pretty stupid if you can't tell what it means to compare Christianity and Hinduism, both ostensibly moralistic and innocuous faith-systems, and then project KKK and Hindutva as radical communalist movements claiming to derive some spurious base of support from those religions. Before you go spinning off at a Hindu for being anti-Hindu, I think you should go brush up on your English and comprehension skills. --LordSuryaofShropshire 14:38, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

By the way, maybe you were too busy indulging your preconceived notions and apparently pro-Hindutva stance to read the statistics and quotations I listed above, but your ludicrous statement that Hindutva legitimately represents the views and concerns of Hindus is laughable at best, retarded at worst. There's a reason BJP was voted out and that much of the (practicing) Hindu population in India doesn't call itself Hindutva. Apparently, most Hindus disagree that Hindutva in any qualifies as legitimate Hindu philosophy, and any neutral or even genuinely biased scholar asserts that Hindutva is a political movement. It was for this reason that I mentioned the KKK, since Hindutva is as much a legitimate expression of Hinduism as the Ku Klux Klan and the Crusades were legitimate expressions of Jesus' love. --LordSuryaofShropshire 14:44, Jun 30, 2004 (UTC)

Your ad hominem's and extremist POV do nothing to improve the article. I suggest you focus on neutral, encyclopedic discourse, and save the insults for the playground. It is acceptable for you to have any opinion, or any politics, but you must be polite if you are to take part in a rational dialogue. Sam 18:20, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Ouch. Sam Spade and Lord Surya, you both have now insulted each other now. There is no need to argue: Lord Surya, simply wait patiently for Sam to present evidence. Sam Spade, I'd love to see some evidence of your claims. Do you have any sources? If you did, then one could at least consider this to be contested. However, right now we have a great deal of evidence that Hindutva is not what you claim it to be, and none that it is what you claim it to be. Hyacinth 20:12, 30 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Sam Spade; once again, your misplaced indignity is ridiculous. I recall you were the first to cast the ad hominem by calling me anti-Hindu, which is not only an indictment of me as a prejudiced bigot, but is further ludicrous since I myself am a Hindu. Secondly, you need to learn polity yourself, and I thank you for your further didacticisms, which it seems you are zealous to give out. You need to learn how to read what I was writing. Not only did you insult and draw first blood, but you completely misread what I said and thereby revealed your quick urge to correct others without yourself supplying anything of use to the discussion. I do, I mean it, appreciate Hyacinth's mediation, and I think it serves as a necessary buffer. Spade, you have all to often launched nonsensical accusations at me and have never been able to textually verify them in my posts. --LordSuryaofShropshire 02:45, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

This is far too silly for me to waste further time with. Have fun with each other, I'll keep an eye on the article. Sam 02:50, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

"Have fun with each other" real mature Mr. Spade. You've really acquitted yourself quite famously. Started the misreading and end with a perfunctory quip so you have the last word. Nice. Who's silly and childish now? --LordSuryaofShropshire 03:39, Jul 1, 2004 (UTC)

I appreciate that you welcome my mediation, though you have yet to take my advice: calm down, stop arguing. I also offer you a new analogy. May Hindutva be comparble not to the KKK but to the Christian Coalition? I do not imply that this, either, is a valid comparison, but it seems to be much closer to the truth than your analogy, and far less baiting. Hyacinth 06:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Is there any common ground between Mister Spade and Lord Surya? Hyacinth 06:40, 1 Jul 2004 (UTC)

Contested excerpts

• It also may include the traditional religions of Indian tribals, although orthodox Hindus treat these as untouchables.

• In fact, the three most important enemies of Hindutva are, in order of priority, Muslims, Christians and Communists.

Any basis for these claims? Are they agreed to generally? Any Hindutva available to lend a hand? Sam Spade 01:22, 6 May 2005 (UTC)

Muslims are seen as a direct because of their open warfare and bombings. Plus, there is no Uniform civil code. Xtians are seen as cultural threat because they convert the poor, starving, and uneducated. Commies are seen as a threat because they want to eliminate religion. --Dangerous-Boy

"saffronisation"

Is this a real term? ¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸¸,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,¸ 01:16, 27 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Fascism

Why is this under Fascism? --Dangerous-Boy

Hindu Nationalism: Why it should not re-direct here, but to the article Hindu Nationalism

I've worked to create a bigger, grander article: Hindu Nationalism. This addresses a wider expression of Hindu nationalism that goes beyond Hindutva.

My main case, as the author and creator of the article project Hindu Nationalism's disctinction from Hindutva rests on three points:

(1) There are large numbers of Hindus in India who do not accept Hindutva as their political expression or idea of patriotism or nationalism. Yet these are Hindus, and impact the expression of Hindu society and India as a whole.

(2) Hindu nationalism is far more diverse than the just expanding the formulations of Savarkar, Syama Prasad Mookerjee and the RSS, VHP and the BJP. It is rooted in the ancient history of India, with the period of Islamic invasions and empires.

(3) Lokmanya Tilak, Mahatma Gandhi, Sardar Patel and Purushottam Das Tandon were not Hindutva adherents, but were with a different kind of Hindu pride. Why should they be crammed into Hindutva?

Please check out Hindu Nationalism and Indian Nationalism. Thank you - Nirav Maurya.

POV

{{POV check}} I was just reading throught this page and I noticed this particular paragraph. Well, apart from the misspelling (which I've corrected), um.. current colonizers?? communists??. Methinks, there needs to be some rephrasing of this para, or at least a reference given. Regards Kaushik twin 16:26, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The RSS worldview views India as the fount of civilisation, from where a lot of knowledge spread to the rest of the world. Such a view is only now being acknowledged by the larger scientific community. To this end one of its goals is to correct the distortions in history currently being taught in Indian universities, which was authored primarily by the Britishors, and then the communists, their former and current colonizers, respectively.

Edited once more to add. authored primarily by the Britons?, um.. since there's no reference for this, and from my personal experience, most books are authored by Indians, deletion of this part? The only reason I'm not making these changes already is that since, this page has been nominated for possible POV content, I thought, I'd see consensus opinion and then edit. Regards, Kaushik twin 16:30, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

• I've moved the POV check from here to the section in question so that it might get some attention. POV checks in "talk space" seldom get broader attention. FWIW, I think the entire section has neutrality problems. -- ShinmaWa 21:11, 22 January 2006 (UTC)

Why is this under facism?

Pretty much thats it. I'll remove it from category in 96hrs if no explaination is given. अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 19:21, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

As per the article on facism, Hindutva doesnt even come close to qualifying for it! List of fascist movements by country. It is not totalitarian, nor do they pledge alleigence to one leader. Yes they have used violence but they arent for corporatism. BJP methinks is largely democratic, though extremist envertheless. अमेय आर्यन DaBroodey 19:34, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

No, Hindutva should not be placed in the fascist category. This category was obviously placed by someone who opposes the BJP and RSS. Hindutva is simply a belief of greater Hindu representation in the international community and particularly within India, the homeland of the Hindus. Nobleeagle (Talk) 02:14, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Hindutva is nationalism but not fascism. It is rubbish that BJP is compared with Hitler and Mussolini. Gizza 04:19, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Some users have the habit of taking the meaning of terms verbally when it suits them,if you do a simple search on fascist on Webster's dictionary, it gives the following results:

Noun 1. An adherent of fascism or other right-wing authoritarian views.

Similarly Oxford dictionary says: fascism /fashiz’m/

 *noun 1 an authoritarian and nationalistic right-wing system of government. 
 *2 extreme right-wing, authoritarian, or intolerant views or practice. 

From above it is clear that any political group that exhibits the cited traits is called fascist.

Some of the BJP supporters here have time and again removed the fascist reference to this party by saying "Fascism calls for Centralised administration but BJP has not done so,as if this was the central trait for which fascism is known..Nah..any movement that has extreme nationalistic - chaunvinsitic tendencies and has supremacist discourse particularly at the expense of other groups is called Fascist and rightly so BJP as a political party and Hindutva as a view deserve place in this list.

Lkadvani 19:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Hindi article on Hindutva with praise and criticism

Those of you who know Hindi, please read this Hindi article on Hindutva, written almost entirely by me hi:हिंदुत्व. It contains both praise and criticism. Please give your comments, because I am soon going to put up an english translation of praise and criticism on this article.Cygnus_hansa 08:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

Encyclopedias aren't for praise or criticism. Just describe it. --Krsont 18:06, 5 May 2006 (UTC)

I find the praise and criticism lobby on all Indian Hindu-Muslim related articles,its like a machine that goes on adding factual inaccuracy templates and then adding praise and criticism..

Lkadvani 19:48, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Anwar's edits

While clearly POV, please avoid automatically reverting them as it seems there is some useful information there. In particular, the information on Christian adoption law and so on. Also, replacing lines like , "and then the communists, their former and current colonizers, respectively" and putting 'widesapread' in for 'some' that "It (the rss) has widespread support among Indian Hindus." is clearly POV. Please engage with the other editor. Hornplease 07:34, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I trust you've seen User talk:Anwar saadat and know about the negotiations that are taking place... Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:38, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I withdraw the last sentence of the above comment. Clearly much engaging is happening. However, please do engage with his edits as well! As I said, some of them are not without merit. I am not getting into editing it myself, because I dont want to enter into the negotiations already in progress. Once its sorted, please do consider incorporating some of the edits he made. Hornplease 07:43, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

Gujarat riots

The website that the User had given does not give the number of people killed as 2000 muslims. One reference i found is Chrisitan Science monitor-report.In this report it is "more than 1000 people , mostly muslims. Besides this , the figure government of India( present Congress -I led govt) through a statement in parliament was abt seven hundred muslims & 200 hindus totalling abt 1000. SO I am going to revert it to 1000 people. If you have any other sources, you can provide that.Bharatveer 06:07, 22 May 2006 (UTC)

POV?

There is this statement in the article that seems like a Point of view :- " Many feel that Hindutva speaks for the Hindu majority in India. They also often feel that secular democracy implies equality for all religions, and want a Uniform Civil Code passed for the same reason." This does not clarify who the "many" are and seems to say that the Hindu majority subscribe to this point of view. Haphar 13:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Hindu Fundamentalism

Hindu Fundamentalism should not be redirecting to this page. The most common example given of hindu fundamentalism is that of an individual who considers his chosen diety superior/supreme to all others hence derides the worship of dieties other than his.

Furthermore, fundamentalism is described as

"Although the term fundamentalism in popular usage sometimes refers derogatorily to any fringe religious group, or to extremist ethnic movements with only nominally religious motivations, the term does have a more precise denotation. "Fundamentalist" describes a movement to return to what is considered the defining or founding principles of the religion. It has especially come to refer to any religious enclave that intentionally resists identification with the larger religious group in which it originally arose, on the basis that fundamental principles upon which the larger religious group is supposedly founded have become corrupt or displaced by alternative principles hostile to its identity.

This formation of a separate identity is deemed necessary on account of a perception that the religious community has surrendered its ability to define itself in religious terms. The "fundamentals" of the religion have been jettisoned by neglect, lost through compromise and inattention, so that the general religious community's explanation of itself appears to the separatist to be in terms that are completely alien and fundamentally hostile to the religion itself. Fundamentalist movements are therefore founded upon the same religious principles as the larger group, but the fundamentalists more self-consciously attempt to build an entire approach to the modern world based on strict fidelity to those principles, to preserve a distinctness both of doctrine and of life."

Another clarification

"Some argue that the religious idea of fundamentalism is limited to "Abrahamic religions", and have connected the phenomenon specifically to the notion of revealed religion. However, the answer to the question, Who is a fundamentalist? is in the eye of the beholder. It is not uncommon for detractors to apply the fundamentalist label to Wiccans or virtually anything else religious, describing an attitude rather than a self-perception or a doctrine. In the landmark series on fundamentalism, scholars led by liberal Christian scholar Martin Marty have identified fundamentalism also in Hinduism.

Followers of Hinduism generally adhere to the Vedic statement, "Truth is One, though the sages know it variously", which would seem to make relativism practically a fundamental tenet. However, a few sects within Hinduism do have a tendency to dogmatically view the Vedas as divinely inspired, superior or even flawless. Regardless, some claim that no Hindu can be found who considers his/her name of God to be that of the "only true God" or their scriptures to be the "only scriptures truly inspired by God" or their prophet to be the "final one". In fact it is normal that Hinduism is itself divided into many different sects and groups with new sects and new philosophies continuously being added; consequently, the fundamentalist enclaves identified by The Fundamentalism Project, which claim to be purer than others, are regarded as aberrant within Hinduism."

A believe a separate article needs to be created for Hindu Fundamentalism chrisJonas 15:53, 19 June 2006 (UTC)ChrisJonas

Pseudosecularism

"The advocates of Hindutva often use the term pseudo-secularism to refer to the Indian Constitution's provisions for minority rights."

This sentence is completely wrong and misleading. They are not against any of the constitutional rights provided for the minorities. But they oppose the delay in the implementation of Universal Civil Code (art.44) which should have been implemented by the successive governments . This being the case, how can one say they are against the minority rights provided by the Indian constitution?/ Haphar, If you feel they are against any particular article /law of Indian constitution . pls list them here. Bharatveer 14:03, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

In sensitive articles such as these, I personally feel that it is best to just mention the events and leave it at that. For example, the UCC issue, I'd just say "Supreme Court said that UCC should be implemented..."; "P. V. Narasimha Rao (as a reply) observed in his Independence day speech Yadyapi shuddham loka viruddham naa aacharaneeyam naa karaneeyam - However good an ideal is, if (sections of) people are against it, it should not be pushed"; "RSS leaders said that it was another act of appeasement" etc. For sensitive articles, it is always better to cite reliable sources and stick to one-revert rule. --Gurubrahma 16:38, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

"The advocates of Hindutva often use the term pseudo-secularism to refer to the policies of the successive governments which they believe are very favourable towards the minorities.They point to the different standards for Hindus, Muslims and Christians."

This statement is the one used by Bharatveer to replace the Constitution one. All examples in the paragraph refer to separate "laws" and there are no "standards" or "policies" explained. Which does not bear with the examples quoted in the paragraph.

In response to Bharatveer's question asking for laws opposed, as mentioned in the text of the paragraph, the laws they are against are the laws that allow Muslims to marry 4 times. Seperate divorce laws for Christians and laws being different for different religions ( to name just a few). And if Bharatveer can mention the "standards" and "policies" that he has been reverting to it would end this conversation. This has been asked 4 times now, in response reverts are done but no explanations are given of these "standards" and/or "policies". Haphar 15:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Instances of laws asked for by bharatveer have been provided( see above), multiple mentions of laws are present in the paragraph being discussed, no standards/ policies examples are provided by bharatveer and the reverts continue, at least back the reverts with substance. Haphar 14:47, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

My reason for not using the word "laws" is because the "pseudosecularism" is not limited to religious laws i.e UCC but it also covers issues like government intervention in the management of Hindu temples, exclusive Use of temple funds for government's " secular " etc etc. That is why "The advocates of Hindutva often use the term pseudo-secularism to refer to the policies of the successive governments which they believe are very favourable towards the minorities.They point to the different standards for Hindus, Muslims and Christians." is better than what you suggested.Bharatveer 15:08, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

Pls dont mark your reverts as minor edits . SEE Minor editsBharatveer 15:14, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Bharatveer here, advocates of Hindutva simply disagree with the fact that Muslims can live a more lenient life than Hindus...and if they don't get to live such a life there is violence inside the nation. Weren't there riots recently because a plan was organized to remove religious places along roads, many temples were removed but when it came to Muslim religious places they got to protest and eventually there was some case of violence... Nobleeagle (Talk) 23:53, 26 June 2006 (UTC)

There are statements in the paragraph that states "They point to the different standards for Hindu's Muslims and Chrisitians" This is presented as fact, and is not supported by anything written so far. There still are no "policies" or "standards" of the governement that are mentioned.So what temple funds are used for secular purposes ? Tirupati temples collections ? Sabarimala ?Or is it Vaishno Devi collections ? and is there a "law" that allows this to happen or a policy ? . NobleEagle there were riots by Muslims and NOT by the government when it came to removing mosque's for road widening, that does not make the government policies biased. All examples quoted are related to Muslims, the paragraph refers to other religions, so is Hindutva focussed on being anti muslim ? The title of the para refers to other faiths, and the focus of the para is Muslims.

Even in the paragraph all the examples quoted are of laws. All the aspects of "policies" and "standards" is totally a POV and does not yet seem to be fact based as there still are no policies or standards described but laws. So if there are instances of "standards" or "policies" ( to help let me offer an example- allowing entry to the disputed temple/mosque at Ayodhya was a policy and not a law (and one which was more pro hindu)) . So this claim on policies or standards is not yet supported by facts and has no references to these policies or standards in the passage, so request that the standards are added, and as the passage is about other faiths please try and get some "other religions" into the ambit or specify that the Hindutva grouse is mainly anti muslim. Or change the heading of the paragraph into Hindutva's views on government policies.

Haphar 08:33, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Standards vs law debate

If one goes to the history page of the article, there is a change put in on 25th June by NobleEagle as an example of differing standards, to quote : " They believe these standards have been in place in the united India since Partition, where Hindus living in Pakistan were forced to evacuate and Muslims living in India were not "

What Pakistan does to it's minorities does not decide laws in India. Non muslims moving out of Pakistan was not an Indian government policy.(and please note "Non Muslims" as it was not just Hindus who moved to India from Pakistan)- Attacks by "mobs" forced most non muslims out of West Pakistan. Conversely mobs in Indian Punjab forced muslims out too. Who was first to start it is conjecture, both parties were equally brutal.

This was painful to both parties and impacted largely an equal amount of people on both ends. So if it is pain caused to the other that is a moot point both sides suffered equally.

However Muslims not being forced out of India being seen by NobleEagle as a differing "standard" does point that he subscribes to the POV that Muslims should have been pushed out of India. Why ? was India pushing out Hindus that it had to be equal to both religions and push out Muslims ? This "Push out Muslims" is the "secular" vision of Hindutva. This movement has slogans like "Bharat mein rahna hoga to Vande Matram kehna hoga" (then scrap Jan Gan Man and make Vande Matram the national anthem first).

This term "psuedosecularism" is actually against equality to minorities. The paragraph "view on other faiths" seems to present only Hindutva's POV and that is the moot point in this standard vs law debate. All imagined ill's or causes for Hindutva's extreme right views are mentioned but not the lack of facts to support this POV Haphar 10:03, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Hey, I didn't want to cause uproar, I was simply looking for an example. No, I don't believe Muslims should be kicked out of India, how many times has Mohammed Kaif saved the Indian cricket team from embarrassment? In fact, I reckon Irfan Pathan is the next big thing in world cricket. I feel pride when I read about Sania Mirza in Western newspapers...So many Bollywood stars are Muslim...so you can get that misconception out of your head. Although this is unrelated to the actual topic, here is my POV: there should have been no partition, the Indian civilization began in the Indus Valley, the fact that the people that now live there do not call themselves Indian is saddenning. I wish a land in which so many tolerant religions were founded would be able to have a tolerant population without splitting in two. But that's just my POV.

To the topic, my point was that in India, note that India was larger before partition and that the RSS existed before partition, Hindutva organizations have felt that there has not been equality between religions. Do you remember the motive behind the assisination of Gandhiji, the reason was mainly because of Gandhi's allowance and assistance in Partition. Those are the different standards Hindtuva organizations point to, tolerance vs intolerance, Gandhi would've never supported moving the Muslims out of India, yet he managed to allow moving the Hindus out of Pakistan. Do you get my point...if not I'll try and clarify tomorrow...Nobleeagle (Talk) 10:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the POV that we have a common heritage here, and almost all of us have a Hindu and/or Budhist ancestor if we are from this land, and there is no point in denying these origins. I see your perspective on Gandhi, Though if you have to hold something against him as an Indian, one could hold a grudge against him for forcing Nehru to give Pakistan's portion of the British Indian treasury to Pakistan after the latter had invaded Kashmir. But my point in relation to the article is that there are no examples that seem to substantiate the claims of biased govt standards and policies .( successive governments as the article puts it) Haphar 13:01, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I see my mistake, although it was only one line that was quickly removed so I can't imagine why this huge fuss. But what I am talking about is not really the standards of the Indian Government on Indian Muslims and Indian Hindus. Its either the Indian Government's early attitudes towards Pakistan or the way the religions have treated each other as opposed to the way the govt. Again, I'm sorry for any hurt I may have caused by my comments on the Partition, I truly felt bad when I read the accusation that was placed on me above, I believe religious tolerance is an integral part of Hinduism. I'm not even far-right, according to the . Nobleeagle (Talk) 23:09, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

I thank you all for pointing out that all this is POV. My personal POV is that if we had not cauterized Pakistan out of our country, Osama bin-Laden would be in my back yard (so to speak), as would the American bombers. So I'm glad we got rid of them, and that we are a rapidly growing nation and they're an Islamist toilet of terrorists in hiding. Just make sure that none of this goes into the article, consciously or subconsciously. I urge all wikipedia authors watching this article to look at edits critically, irrespective of whether they conform to their POV or not. (Netaji 09:07, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

Link removals

Please do not remove any links, but instead arrange them and describe them if they support one side, since most websites about Hindutva support one side. By the way, Hindutva is the DOMINANT party in India, meaning Yes, it Is, a Majority movement. Basawala 01:12, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

What utter rubbish. You need to read some papers. The dominant party id the Indian National Congress, a socialist party. They won the elections, remember? Referring the link I removed is like putting a link to an antisemetic website in an article about the Arab-israeli conflict. It is POV and out of place.(Netaji 01:21, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

But the Bharatiya Janata Party won the election before that, did they not? We can at least safely say that around half of the Indian population support Hindutva... Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:27, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

The BJP does not officially support hindutva. Hindutva was coined by VD Savarkar and does not have any linkage with the BJP. The RSS does officially support Hindutva, and they never won any national elections. Where does it say in the charter of the BJP that they support hindutva? Provide links to their party charter or manifesto and highlight any endorsement of hindutva. Until you do, the site linked to is POV, unsubstantiated, and stays out. Please do some research in reality and not in dreams. (Netaji 01:30, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

Even so, in the link that was deleted without warning, there was NO MENTION of Hindutva being a majority movement, from what I could find. This link should be put back on the article. Basawala 01:38, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course the BJP supports Hindutva, I can happily provide proof: all here. Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:40, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

See below:

• Doesn't change the fact that the website is a lie. It says (and I quote)
  • "In Modi’s Gujarat, Hitler is a textbook hero "

In fact, the favorable mention of the erstwhile chancellor has nothing to do with modi, but an addition of the Congress (http://www.sulekha.com/news/nhc.aspx?cid=423798).

• • "It must be remembered that these fanatics are not small in number".Relative to the population of India, they are small in number, another deliberate lie.
  • Plus, the website has no legitimate or scholarly standing. It is, in fact, a muslim site (big surprise) , has a high risk rating by netcraft inc (7/10) , and is POV, ill frequented, and potentially contains dangerous code that could hijack client computers to disseminate viruses written by terrorist orgs.

It stays out. (Netaji 01:52, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

I'm not debating removal of the site, simply debating the idea that Hindutva is not a majority movement. It is at least a majority movement amongst Hindus, as most Non-Hindus would not have voted for a Hindutva-party in the election before last. Nobleeagle (Talk) 01:57, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Says who? Koenraad Elst is not a Hindu, yet he supports Hindutva. Ariel Sharon is not a Hindu, yet he supports Hindutva. The middle class voted for the BJP because they were modernising the country away from the communist economy of the Congress, not because of hindutva. Many Buddhists and Sikhs support Hindutva, as evidenced by the Khalsa, VHP alliance in Britain. Sikhs are pissed at congress atrocities on them. Hindutva, despite its support, is opposed by the pseudosecularist self-hating left-wing moonbats who form the majority in India.(Netaji 02:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

Let me rephrase, Hindutva does not have majority support in non-Hindu religions. Remember that Hindutva ideologies includes Buddhists, Jains and Sikhs as Hindus. Basically those whose religion traces back to India. Or are you trying to tell me that its a majority movement in all religions! :) Nobleeagle (Talk) 02:04, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct, hindutva is a generic term for all indegenously Indian cultures, be it Shaivites, Vaishnavites,whatever caste (including legitimate Indian gentiles), Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists, Santhals, Aadivasis, Andamanis, whoever. It does not include communists, muslim terrorists, crosspuggers and pinko liberals, who dominate the Indian political landscape. Pinkos collude with crosspuggers and muslims in order to secure the minority vote bank against the interests of the Hindu majority. Most Hindus are too self-hating to see that (long story as to why), so they run behind them like the mules of Stalinist Russia. Thus, hindutva is NOT a majority ideology at present, though it will be very soon. However, hindutva speaks for the majority, whether they know it or not. See the difference? Obviously, Hindutva is not a majority ideology among non-Hindus, though we have many supporters among devout Jews, the AIPAC committee, sympathizers of Zionism, and Occidental friends of Hindutva such as Koenraad Elst and Daniel Pipes.(Netaji 02:39, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

American English?

This article has many Americanisms and spellings in it, and since its an Indic-related topic, it should be "converted" into British English. Thank you. Basawala 18:11, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

No, it shouldn't. Like it or not, more Indians are adopting American English. America is very popular and well-liked in India. Too bad, Osama.(Netaji 20:15, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

No, actually it should. India-related articles should be written in Indian English which basically is the same as British English (Commonwealth English if you would). This is Misplaced Pages policy see WP:INWNB for further details. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 16:42, 2 July 2006 (UTC)

Why? Three centuries ago, nobody had evn heard of English in India. Now, all of a sudden, you want to advance "British English" upon us because Indians were forced to use it as slaves? Why shouldn't this article give credence to the fact that India, now a budding friend of the United States, is CHANGING to adapt to American English, which is the lingua-franca of the future, whether a bunch of stiff-assed Brits like it or not.(Netaji 12:25, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

Three centuries ago, lots of things were different and so that's not really a valid argument. Yes, because I want to enslave you with British English - of course, you can't be enslaved with the increasing Americanisation (or is that Americanization)? If you want to attempt a reform you can tell the Indian government to teach American English in schools instead of the Imperialist English being taught at the moment. But in all seriousness, I'm not bothered which is used (even though I prefer British English), and if you wish to bring this issue up you can - the place to go is WT:INWNB. If enough Wikipedians agree with your wish to change it, then we can come to some sort of agreement. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:33, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

American multinationals are not the cabal of gangsters and prostitutes that the East India Company was. We need to eradicate all British influence on Indian Culture and migrate to sympathize with a country that is our ally. You're trying to enslave me with British English? Dunno if you're trying to be sarcastic or what, but last time I checked, babu, the British regard Sikhs with little respect. In the US and Canada, Sikh boys are allowed to wear their Kirpans to School.(Netaji 01:45, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

The East India company is a long gone entity my friend. Times have changed. But yes, I was being sarcastic in my comment.

And, for the record, Britain has for a long time protected the rights of baptised Sikhs (including the right to wear the Kirpan at school). And arguably, it goes much further than the protections granted by the US and Canada. In the UK, the Sikhs were recognised in a landmark ruling by the House of Lords (1982; Jews are the only other religious group to have this same protection) as an ethnic group and hence they are protected by racial discrimination laws. Therefore it would actually be *racist* for a British school (be it a public (private in Amerian English!) or state school) to prevent a baptised Sikh student from wearing a kirpan without just cause. The same goes for all positions within the government, including positions in the army.

But back to the original point. If you want to change the policy (which you are perfectly entitled to do) then please bring it up on WT:INWNB. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, and not that I want to get into a rant about this nor do I necessarily subscribe to this view, but many baptised Sikhs would contend that Sikhs have been treated far better by Britain in the last 20 years than they have by the government in their own country (the congress that is...). Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 18:23, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with this view. The bloody useless Congress government has been despicable to the Sikh people. It is but part of their pseudosecularist agenda to delitimize the Great Khalsa. Sikhism is a uniquely Indian religion and embodies the Indian ethos perfectly in Sikh principles. Hindutva activists wish nothing but coexistence with the Great Khalsa. In fact, I believe that Sikh members of the B.N.P. have formed an alliance of sorts with Hindu members of the B.N.P. in order to speak out against the massive atrocities inflicted on both peoples by muslims.(Pusyamitra Sunga 10:04, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

historians and personal attacks

I have been referred to as a "pinko" because I pointed out that Koenraad Elst's views are viewed as false by the entirety of Indo-European studies? I understand this is is a very heated issue, but I don't understand why anyone who disagrees with Indian nationalism is labelled either an imperialist or a communist. --Krsont 08:14, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Because they usually are. Sorry if I flew off the handle, but wikipedia is not the place to defame scholars. Please leave defamation to terrorist-sympathizers. Plus, I have no interest in this wikipedia article become a "Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion" against Hindus, so please do not delete the facts in favor of biased information or biased tone. Thanks. (Netaji 08:17, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

There is nothing in my additions that defames Hindus or Hinduism, and I am very sorry if you feel that way. The fact of the matter is that most linguists and historians agree that Indo-Aryan languages, and some elements of culture, did enter India at some point after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civilization. These views are not intended to discredit Hinduism, or support terrorists(!), merely to represent history and pre-history as best we can.

also: I'm confused with the continued addition of the term "Aryan Invasion Theory" or "AIT" to this page. As far as I can tell this phrase and concept is only mentioned as current in Indian nationalist literature, wheras in reality the melodramatic idea of an invasion was abandoned long ago in mainstream history and linguistics. The term "Indo-Aryan migration" is much more appropriate and accurate. --Krsont 08:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Wrong, and wrong. Read Romila Thapar's "Ashoka and the Decline of the Mauryas". In it, she keeps mentioning all that "Aryan Race Invasion" nonsense. It's like a bloody Nazi propaganda leaflet written by Joseph Goebbels, for Krishna's sake. Many historians do criticise the entire concept of the "Aryan Race" as a total lie (as do many Jewish Scholars like Abraham Foxman and Allan Dershowitz) deliberately created by 19th century race theorists to advace colonialism and anti-semitism. And yes, this IS pertinent to the Hindu Rashtra issue, as the AIT is a canard used by anti-Hindu haters to delegitimize our legitimate claim to India, just like anti-semites use race-theories to delegitimize the Jewish claim to Israel. It's the same basic deal.(Netaji 08:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

I would agree with you entirely, that the Aryans where not a race, and that genetic influence on India from Central Asia is minimal to none (as recent studies such as that by the Human Genographic project have shown). But again, it is an ingress of Indo-Aryan culture and language that is the question here, not genetics or "race". And, as I have stated, mainstream scholarship is unified on the issue - all the evidence points to it having happened. To attack this fact as anti-Hindu racism is ridiculous. Politics does not come into it. --Krsont 08:35, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

"Mainstream Scholarship" once was unified on the fact that the Earth was flat, that heat was conducted by a fluid called 'phlogiston', that sperm cells contained little dwarves, and that Jews ate people and secretly conspired to take over the world. As long as there is no universal consensus to a claim, it remains disputed. There is no dispute over categorically verified facts in academia, like the postulates of Quantum Mechanics. The 'Aryan Race Invasion' garbage cannot be given the same degree of respect as the postulates of Quantum Mechanics, as it is still disputed. So is any sanitized variation of the "Indo-Aryan" Theory. If one aspect, any aspect, of an idea or concept is tainted, the entire theory is suspect.(Netaji 08:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

The evidence is not nearly as easy to dispute as you claim. The Indo-Aryan languages clearly show a Dravidian substrate in their phonology and vocabulary, something which is not present anywhere else in the Indo-European languages. This shows the original languages of North India where Dravidian, and that Indo-Aryan language came into India from outside and was adopted by a mostly Dravidian language speaking populace. There is nothing Eurocentric about this theory - the same methods have shown a substrate in the Germanic languages (see Germanic substrate hypothesis) that show that the original Germans did not speak an Indo-European language either. Infact, it is probably more correct to characterise the Hindutva theories of Indo-European origins as outdated fairy tales. When the language family was first proposed, most European scholars believed that the language family originated in India, based primarily on the percieved age of the Vedas. It was only later that they realised the evidence showed an origin somewhere further to the West/North, as the finding of the Hittite language (the earliest evidence of which is dated earlier than the Vedas) has shown to be a correct assumption. --Krsont 09:03, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Please read a small but undeniable number of papers and books written by Arun Shourie and other historians that provide alternate explanations to most of your points above. It is also equally possible tha the evolution of language went the other way (an error in sign ,perhaps?), FROM India TO the rest of Eurasia. There are few reliable documents in India (other than the Vedas, Mahabharata, Ramayana, and Gita) that date before 350 BC, and the dating of the documents that may establish that the Eurasian languages predated ours are done by imprecise means that can be questioned. The linguistic links don't establish a temporal order of evolution without documentation, they only establish a link. It could have gone either way. Fact remains that history is not mathematics, and as long as you can't CATEGORICALLY prove (evidence is not proof, only a substantiation) that the Indic languages came from outside India, and if alternate theories can explain your data with reasonable accuracy, the claims remain disputed.(Netaji 09:15, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

The evidence does quite clearly demonstrate a temporal link: a Dravidian substrate is found within India, but no-where else. If the Indo-European languages had come from India these Dravidian elements would be found outside of India. They are not. However even if we accept that this hypothesis is disputed, and that alternate explanations exist, that does not mean that it is fair to categorize mainstream views as divided, or that it is wrong to point out that these opposing views come almost exclusively from and supported by nationalist individuals and groups. This is a similar issue to the creationist/evolutionist debate - while there is a strong current of anti-evolutionist thought in many groups, this does not mean that biologists themselves are truly divided on the issue. --Krsont 09:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The fact also remains that the AIT is a theory that is touted primarily by westerners. Many Indians do not buy into it, and Indians are more in touch with their culture and their history to have at least some say in the theories of their origins. After all, we don't dispute that Jews came from Israel (muslims do), or that Lief Ericsson discovered America (Spaniards do). Also, you made the following statement:

• • • • • If the Indo-European languages had come from India these Dravidian elements would be found outside of India.

The logical fallacy in this claim is obvious if you can draw some Venn Diagrams.Your argument is problematic. The contrapositive of a logical statement WOULD be true if you have firmly established that EVERY INSTANCE OF set A leads to EVERY INSTANCE of set B, and you haven't established that at all.None of these so called "scholars" (with no background in mathematics or logic it would seem) have.(Netaji 11:00, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

I'm going to admit I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Please define what set a, set be, and set c represent. The fact is Dravidian linguistic influences only exist in the Indo-Aryan branch of the Indo-European linguistic family. They acquired this after they entered India. These Dravidian elements are not found any where else. I don't see how a venn diagram disproves this. As for your claims of the "AIT" being proposed by westerners, I really have no idea what you mean. The invasion claim is a discredited view of history, the term is only found in Indian literature. Linguistics is not the study of invasions, despite what the rather melodramatic, and (yes) racist views of 19th century Europeans claimed. Modern linguistics has put these things behind them them. And your examples given of nationalist denials of facts only strengthen my claim - just as the Arab view that Jews do not belong in Israel, or the (apparently, I've never heard Spanish people claim this) Spanish claim that the Vikings never got to America, are nationalist, so to is the divergent and non-mainstream Indian view that Indo-European languages came from India. This view flies in the face of the linguistic facts, and is based, as far as I can tell, soley on nationalism, nothing more. --Krsont 11:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Let me make my argument a bit clearer (I was a bit vague and made a mistake in the last post). You say that, the fact that certain aspects of Indic languages (Indo-Aryan) are common to those outside India, and others (Dravidian) are not. Thus, it follows that the languages outside India are the origins of the Indic Language family. This is logically fallacious, as you have said (A represents Indic languages, E represents Eurasian languages , let us assume A = I U D where I is Indo-Aryan and D is Dravidian).Now, let me try to condense your argument into logical statements:

D \intersection E is null, ok ;

I \intersection E is not null, ok ;

On the basis of this, you are trying to prove the following:

• • A is a subset of E (this is just plain false, draw a Venn Diagram to see for yourself)
  • there is a causal relationship between A & E that is established by the above claims (please try and prove this, you can't. You don't have enough information)

In addition, you make claims that if statement X (Dravidian Substrate is found within India) and Y (Dravidian substrate is NOT found outside India) being true, plus X` (Indo-Aryan languages found in India) and Y`(They are also found outside) are true, it automatically follows that XUY --> X' U Y', then that is also false.

I could just as easily claim that Indo-Aryan languages originated in India together with the Dravidian family (influencing each other marginally), but the Aryan languages advanced to Eurasia during this time, and the Dravidian influence has been diluted to the point that you can't detect any. Then, as time went by, Dravidian languages influenced Aryan ones in India more (without influencing foreign languages much), making THAT detectable.(Netaji)

I'm not a logician, so I regret to say I understood little of the above. But I must point out that your idea that Dravidian languages could have influenced Indo-Aryan ones by adstratum rather than substratum effects is false - the nature of the Dravidian influences in Indo-Aryan makes this extremely unlikely. The influence was far too large, and at far too basic a level (phonological and some aspects of morphology) to merely be adstratum resulting from mutual influence/a common sprachbund. Such adstratum influence did certainly also occur, but after the initial establishment of Indo-Aryan languages in India. Of note also is the existence of Mitanni, an apparently Indo-Aryan language, spoken in the ancient near east, that shows no evidence of a Dravidian substrate (having split off from an earlier stage before Indo-Aryan languages entered India). So also do the closely related Iranian languages show no evidence whatsoever of Dravidian influence at any point in their history. Does it really make sense to dismiss all possible Dravidian influences as having "diluted" away so quickly, and so completely, and that the Dravidian languages waited until after Indo-European languages had spread into "Eurasia" before influencing it further to the point where it is so obvious today? The only logical explanation, and the one that the comparative linguistic community have arrived at, is that Indo-Aryan languages came into India from outside. Anything else just doesn't make sense.--Krsont 13:39, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Trying to make sense out of an originial senseless theory (which you admitted earlier) is also senseless .Bharatveer 13:52, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I assume the "senseless theory" you are referring to is the "Aryan invasion" that keeps being mentioned. Yes, it is senseless, but it has nothing to do with modern linguistics. As I also "admitted earlier". --Krsont 13:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Its no good trying to seperate Modern linguists from AIT. Almost all "Modern Linguists" still BELIEVE , I repeat BELIEVE and SUPPORT ARYAN INVASION THEORY , which is a fact which you cannot deny. Bharatveer 14:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I just did deny it. The Aryans never invaded India. at most they migrated, but even then it was in small numbers. All they gave was language. See this study by the human genographic project (which i also posted earlier). No genetic evidence of large scale invasion or migration was found. The change was linguistic only. There is no, i repeat no, conspiracy among linguists to secretly believe blond-haired blue-eyed pretty Germans guys invaded India. I don't know how I can put it any clearer. --Krsont 14:08, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Many blond haired blue eyed (but not sure abt "prettiness)+ one or two germ ans "ultra modern Linguists" + some brown haired brown/black eyed commies from India got together very "recently" in CALIFORNIA and announced their whole hearted support for AIT . Did You forget that??? Bharatveer 14:20, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

are you referring to the Californian Hindu textbook controversy? Again, you are confusing the issue of migration with invasion. Teaching the fact of a possible migration (note also that they now teach that some disagree with the migration theory) does not mean that they are a) teaching an Aryan invasion as it was invisioned by racist British Imperialists or b) that they are a bunch of commies/racists/racist commies/"germ mans" trying to put down Hinduism/India or deligitimise the Indian state. Again, linguistics has nothing to do with politics. --Krsont 14:27, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Linguistics have EVERYTHING to do about politics.

I will cite 2 from the many examples. In India : remember the GREAT LINGUIST Robert Caldwell and his relation with DRAVIDIAN MOVEMENT politics of Tamil nadu. (Too bad nothing much came out of it.)

In Rwanda , Hamitic Theory of Races & Rwandan Genocide. (You got something like 10 million souls ). Bharatveer 14:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

language definately has something to do with politics, because it's a defining charecteristic of culture. When Robert Caldwell identified the Dravidian language group, it allowed the peoples that spoke those languages to develop their regional identity. It's only natural that led to a seperatist movement. But it was not linguists that led the seperatists movement, it was politicians. It is not linguists who continue the violence in Sri Lanka, it is the Tamil seperatists. Language may be a rallying cry for various political movements, often seperatist ones, but that does not mean linguistics is a tool of government or any other political organization - or at least it shouldn't be. Thankfully in the past few hundred years a lot of the world has come to the realisation that science shouldn't be told what to think or study by governments. As for the Rwandan Genocide, again you are confusing race/ethnicity with linguistics. Infact both Hutus and Tutsis speak the same languages, none of which are "hamitic" (I'm assuming you meant "Afro-Asiatic" here). --Krsont 15:23, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nope I meant " Hamitic " itself . Linguists doesnt do anything , they just say or write as instructed by their employers.If the next question is who is the employer , then look for some "Cross" relation between Mueller , Caldwell and Rwandan Genocide. The relation is not that difficult to find .Bharatveer 16:06, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh, of course! The British. I guess we can settle this then. The British Empire invented linguistics so they could make people the world over feel bad about themselves, and then move in to take over their country. Why did you not say so sooner? it all makes perfect sense! Infact, it goes right back to the foundations of Britain itself - linguists must have invented the Celtic languages of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, just so the native peoples would feel really bad about themselves and submit to the rule of England. And now that I think about it, there are many notable linguists the world over who actually speak English! Clearly this conspiracy runs very deep. The Ministry of Linguistics at Westminster must be shaking with fear that someone has finally uncovered their dastardly scheme. who knows, they may have, as we speak, been inventing a new language for Iraq in order to divide it and cause a civil war, just so the Britishers could rule it better! Looks like you really averted a disaster there. And I guess all those linguists in the employ of HRH should be looking for new jobs. --Krsont 16:31, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

You know very well that i was not talking about the british.But Holy C (ow) , i know you will not like to mention it here . Since I think this is not place to discuss all these kind of issues. I will stop this discussion for now. Bharatveer 17:02, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

fair enough, although I really did think you where talking about the British there. Either that or Christianity (and that'd be a lot harder for me to argue with, cos I'm a complete anti-christian myself). --Krsont 17:56, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

racism

my edits regarding the nature of claims of racism on western scholars keeps being reverted. Note I am not the one who said that this writer has called western historians racist, this was added by another contributor. Is it not true? and is it really that controversial an idea that calling people racist is an attack? how could there possibly be a disagreement on this? --Krsont 10:01, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

AIT was( and is even now with modified AMT or ATT) clearly a RACIST theory .So calling it as such will not make it an "attack". Bharatveer 10:09, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

This is entirely your minority and fringe POV. There is nothing racist about it; quite simply because the theory does not concern genetics or race. Language and culture is not genetic, and to claim otherwise is itself racist. --Krsont 10:10, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Shaheb. The AIT is RACIST! I second the motion and suggest that you stop defaming our people for the sake of advancing your Eurocentric agenda on wikipedia.(Netaji 10:48, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

When have I ever defamed Hindus or Hinduism? and what evidence is there for this supposed Eurocentric agenda? There is nothing Eurocentric whatsoever about the Indo-European hypothesis - the two main contenders for the Indo-European homeland place it either in Turkey or Central Asia. Not in Europe. Europe was Indo-Europeanised in exactly the same as North India and Iran where. So if Europeans can accept that their civilization was not the source of Indo-European language and culture, then why can't Indians? Is it not more accurate to say your view is the more ethnocentric one, dismissing all evidence of outside influence on Indian culture as either racist or communist? --Krsont 10:53, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

What evidence of Eurocentricity? How about the gas chambers of Auschwitz? The 60lakh Jews that suddenly 'vanished' from Eastern Europe? Now what about the endless litany of pamphlets, essays, and books written by Alfred Rosenberg, Joseph Goebbels and dozens of others in the erstwhile "Third Reich" touting the glory of the "Aryan" supremacy? Not enough evidence of what the "Aryan Invasion" Theory was meant to accomplish in Europe at least? Now go to Indian history and rad about the massive scale of genocide, slavery and brutal atrocities committed by the British in the name of "Aryanism". Still not enough?(Netaji 11:04, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

Read origin of AIT & Philology - Bharatveer 11:13, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nazis and British Imperialists are not the same as the modern day international linguistics community. Comparing a theory of linguistics to genocide is beyond ridiculous. There is nothing political about this theory. It is not designed to defame or harm Hinduism, and it does not discredit the legitimate right for Hindus, or Jews, or any other peoples, to exist in peace. Yes, elements of it in the past was incorperated into the ideology and policies of the Nazis and British in India, but that has nothing whatsoever to do with modern linguistics, or the fact that the theory itself is still true. What you're saying is not even an ad hominem attack, because the Nazis version of the Indo-European hypothesis was at odds with even the Indo-European theories of the time. It's like saying all vegetarians are Nazis because Hitler claimed to be one, despite the fact he actually regularly ate meat. --Krsont 11:18, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

I reiterate Bharatveer's post, read origin of AIT & Philology. BTW I'm putting that up as a link in the article. The AIT is nothing more than "The Protocols of the Learned Elders of India". (Netaji 11:22, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

I completely agree. The invasion theory was a horrifically racist explanation for the existence of Indo-European languages in India. Except of course, no serious linguist or historian still advocates the invasion theory. Genetic evidence has disproved it, archeological evidence has disproved it. The continued insistance on the term "invasion theory" only shows how out of touch the nationalist view is. As I have said before, Indo-Europeanization of India was no different from the same process in Europe and Iran. A cultural transformation. Nothing more. You're just attacking something the rest of the world has long gotten over. --Krsont 11:30, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Nein, mein Freund. This article is not about AIT. It's about Hindutva. I'm challenging the claim made by anti-Hindu "scholars" of the west that Hinduism is not native to India because white people brought it from Europe through this "Aryan Invasion" <insert Hakenkreuse here> thingie, which is utter donkey-poo.(Netaji 11:33, 4 July 2006 (UTC))

you're right, it is bullshit. Outdated imperialist bullshit. But Hindutva isn't just attacking that. The Hindutva view rejects all forms of the Indo-European hypothesis as it concerns India, even the modern view that says Indo-Aryan languages where introduced into India from Afghanistan after the collapse of the Indus Valley Civ.. (Would you say this is an example of Afghanocentric imperialism?) Fair enough, Hindutva reject a modern historical and linguistics theory. That's something to note in the article. But to say that the people who support these facts are the same as the racists and nazis of the past is defemation, and an attack. It is not valid criticism, anymore than calling all modern Germans Nazis is. --Krsont 11:41, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

Here is the point, let's not debate about the AIT. Debate about the issue...there are some scholars who oppose the AIT, OK? So just leave it at that, those who follow Hindutva believe in Indian origin of Hinduism and they are backed by some scholars (add examples), although others still refute their claims as religiously or politically motivated. Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:27, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I think the page as it now is represents a fair compromise on this subject. --Krsont 10:40, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Page protected

I have locked the page due to excessive reverting. Blnguyen | rant-line 00:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Some points to consider from WP:3RR

• The policy states that an editor must not perform more than three reversions, in whole or in part, on a single Misplaced Pages article within a 24 hour period. This does not imply that reverting three times or fewer is acceptable. In excessive cases, people can be blocked for edit warring or disruption even if they do not revert more than three times per day.

• Reverting, in this context, means undoing the actions of another editor or other editors in whole or part. It does not necessarily mean taking a previous version from history and editing that. A revert may involve as little as adding or deleting a few words or even one word. Even if you are making other changes at the same time, continually undoing other editors' work counts as reverting. "Complex partial reverts" refer to reverts that remove or re-add only some of the disputed material while adding new material at the same time, which is often done in an effort to disguise the reverting. This type of edit counts toward 3RR, regardless of the editor's intention.

• Note: There is no requirement for the reverts to be related: any four reverts on the same page count.

• The three-revert rule is not an entitlement, but an "electric fence"; the 3RR is intended to stop edit wars. It does not grant users an inalienable right to three reverts every 24 hours or endorse reverts as an editing technique. Persistent reversion remains strongly discouraged and is unlikely to constitute working properly with others. The fact that users may be blocked for excessive reverting does not necessarily mean that they will be blocked. Equally, reverting fewer than four times may result in a block depending on context.

Noting the part about "Complex partial reverts", this is often unknown to a lot of users, who think that there must be 4 identical reverts to count for 3RR, which is incorrect; otherwise people can game the system by rephrasing each revert. I note that several users have overstepped the mark, with more than three reversions (although not identical), so I didn't bother blocking anybody because people may not be aware of the fact that the reverts need not be identical. I have locked the page instead so that genuine discussion will have to occur.Blnguyen | rant-line 00:36, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree that editing should be restricted until consensus is reached (which I fear, may not come to pass due to the deep-seated hatred that many editors here have for Hindus). Anywho I believe that my opponent and I have reached reasonably common ground regarding our last edits. (Netaji 00:49, 5 July 2006 (UTC))

I agree, I too felt that a reasonable compromise had been reached. --Krsont 01:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)

Genetics and linguists vs opinion

The above discussions show that "opinion" over fact is a problem not just unique to born again Christians ( evolution vs intelligent design. The obviously American Inspired right wingers here ( I guess fascism was too european for someone rejecting European influence on India) show that very clearly , even Arun Shourie is made a historian to get a point of view across. Haphar 09:13, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm very sorry you feel that way. Let me enlighten you (you're ignorance is understandable) as to the fact that Hindutva does not satisfy the litmus test for fascism. For instance, Fascism implies for big government (3rd Reich had a HUGE-ass government), whereas Hindutva activists want small government (village panchayats, decentralized administration etc.). Please read Koenraad Elsts essays on the subject and you will see that Hindutva has nothing to do with fascism. As for your American "Right Wingers" , you might want to hear the Neoconservative point of view in America. We believe in many of the things they do (A large fraction of American neocons are of Jewish culture, are you accusing Jewish people of fascism? That would be a massive historical irony). We believe in democracy, but, like Neoconservatives, we do not believe in secularism. Secularism and democracy do not go hand in hand. That is a false contention. We aim to be a democratic Hindu Rashtra, much like Israel is a democratic Jewish State, otr the US a democratic Christian one. We do not desire a Hindu Theocracy. The very idea is absurd, as the Hindu Dharma, being non-doctrinal, cannot set up a theocracy (unlike Islam, which can, see Iran). We want Hindu Vedic, pauranic,Shastric, and karmic values incorporated into the executive, lgislative and Judiciary systems in India for the benefit of all Indians and to create a uniquely Indian democracy (instead of imitating a useless and outdated british system, as India is doing today).

Regarding the Aryan invasion hoax, it IS a hoax, and it is perpetrated by a virulently racist and anti-semitic left wing academia of the west as part of an agenda to delegitimize our right to exist. It has been co-opted by Indians in a massive bout of self-hatred that is increasingly commonplace in Indian society. Because of centuries of colonialism and brutal slavery under the heel of the Anglo-Saxon race(s), Indians have been indoctrinated into believing that any claim made by the archetypal "white scholar" must be correct, and cannot be questioned. Especially if it is an attack on Indian cultural ethos (you may read the wikipedia article on Self Hatred to understand this peculiar phenomenon yourself). it is this self-hatred that lead Indians into embracing a horrible travesty of a political/economic system that is socialism, and it has led Indians to slowly bastardize their society in a fit of gutter multiculturalism. I am disappointed in the western academia, that they have not gotten over their violent and ethnocentric views against the Indian civilization. Hindus have been the objects of hate and the victims of massive genocides for centuries. Particularly this one, such as in Kashmir, and Bangladesh. This is, in part, because of the stateless nature of Hindus (when every other major religious denomination in the world DOES have states of their own). These are precisely the problems that Hindutva, as an ideology, means to resolve.

Arun Shourie is a historian. He is recognized as one. The University of Texas at Austin (where I study) lists his books in it's history section. His publications are given merit as a historian. Onlu in his homeland, dominated by Indians in denial of their own heritage, is he lambasted. He is an intellectual refugee from his own country, a country where Indians are so blinded by left-wing half-truths and lies that they cannot see the imminent danger faced by the forces of pseudosecularism and Islamic terrorist aggression upon our nation, and sings in praise of bin-Laden and other terrorists as a 'hero' while they plot to destroy us all.(Pusyamitra Sunga 09:43, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Your ignorance of what I know or do not know is more understandable but not your assumptions that I am ignorant. Fascism was of Italian origin, and the Nazis went much beyond the Italian model. It is not neccecarily of the govt ( whatever the size of it's ass), a fascist movement remains one even if out of power. There may be some sane elements in Hindutva and it's ideologies but there are also the Shiv Sainiks and the Bajrang Dal and elements of the VHP like Togadia who are more fascist than tolerant. So there is where the distrust of a " Hindu" state comes in. Even now they attack cinema halls showing movies they do not agree with, as well as gift shops over valentine day ( something that the Dukhtaran E millat picked up from them- talk about teaching the islamic right wingers new ways of intolerance). So this denial of the right wing element is what is the scary part. That is where fear over the "Mukhota" comes in. Islamic fundamentalisism is also scary and bad bt having a Hindu one is not justified just because Islam has it. Wrong is wrong for both sides.

Coming to the invasion part, the counterview that the culture evolved here and had no outside influence is way more erroneous than the earlier Aryan invasion one. There is an Aryan influence, how it came about can be debated and found out more with the genome project making head way ( incidentally North India has more Central asian and european haplotypes than the rest of India it is not in a majority but is significantly higher than the rest of India, so there was migration to these parts).

About Jews and fascism, if Hindu rashtra's views on minorities are the same as Israel that denies even voting rights to Palestinians, then all I can say is you make the intent clear, thankfully you are honest enough to reject secularism and admit you are against it, without the shadow boxing of "psuedosecularism" vs your version of true secularism. Thank you for that, and that is the whole element, to cater to the intelligensia the hardliners pretend to be rational and say they are for secularsim but this is not true secularism, wheras at heart they are against secularism. I once again thank you for being honest on this point. Coming back, why should the minorities accept this marginalisation like the Palestinians ? And what the state of Israel has done to the Palestinians is also not right. What Europe did to them was wrong but does not justify what they are doing to the Palestinians.

I hate socialism, but that does not mean we jump into a right wing religion based system, that is the other extreme. And you are wrong that there is no Hindu nation, Hindu's do have their own "country", it is Nepal.

Arun Shourie is a journalist maybe a politician as his second calling an could be also called an author, A Historian is not his primary definition. As much as "Discovery of India" by Jawaharlal Nehru might be in the "History" section, but that does not make him a historian, he remains a politician. And who says Arun Shourie is lambasted in India ? He did a great job as a journalist and an equally good one as a minister for disinvestment. He has a right wing persepctive in his POV that some disagree with, but he also has a huge amount of respect, including mine, I wish the country had more people like him, still all the respect he gets does not make him into an historian. Haphar 14:38, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

First off, Palestine doesn't exist. There is no such place. There is only Israel.Israelis don't give voting rights to Palestinians? Funny I seem to recall them 'voting' terrorists to power in their nonexistent country. Plus, they have no voting rights in Israel because they are terrorist mass-murderers and child-soldiers. Only Indians are foolish enough to give muslims any rights. That is why israel is one of 4 developed countries in Asia, and India is a stinkhole.

Secondly, nepal is no longer constitutionally Hindu. Your communist friends have ruined her.

Thirdly, Jawaharlal Henru had a degree in history. He was a professional historian.

Arun Shourie is not a historian? Funny, then why does the Perry Castaneda library of the University of Texas at Austin have his books in the 'history' section, eh????? Netaji 19:47, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

I had responded to your sockpuppet on the history aspect, but to reiterate :- Some of Arun Shourie's books are books you would get in the history of India section ( and a degree in history making one a "Historian" should make all arts degree holders artists and science degree holders scientists). So if he has written books that deal with history, those would be in the history section. Like Erich von Däniken's books might get covered in Archaeology or even anthropology, as well as history it does not make him an archeologist, and anthropologist or an historian. Arun Shourie delves into history to try and bring about support for a very selective POV.

Secondly your "Hindu Kingdom" friends did more damage to Nepal than the communists. The communists did not gun down an entire royal family, a Hindu royal did. A Communist did not dismiss a Parliament, a Hindu king did.

Third- Hindu rashtra does not exist, you still talk of it, and if Palestine does not exist where did they vote the "terrorists" into power ? How are the muslim murderers and terrorists any different from people who kill in the name of religion in riots ? Here is an article for you to read on who all are terrorists. Haphar 12:37, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

Palestine does not exist. USA and Israel don't recognize them. Only Arabs do. USA and Israel are more important than YOU. Are you a closet anti-semite? Muslim murderers and terrorists kill innocents. Ritoers kill other rioters. No accredited organization in the world recognises Hindutva as a terrorist movement. Plenty of them recognize muslim orgs as terrorist movement. Too bad, my dear Osama fan.Netaji 18:08, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Neither does the Hindu Rashtra exist, does not stop some people from mooning about it ( or dreaming about it). And in case you missed it let me repeat myself ( again) Where were the elections held that you talked of ? a place called Palestine. After advocating democracy when the Hamas won the US cut the Palestine funding. It has to be an entitity for some funds to be cut or a government to be elected, funding is not cut for dreams or imagination but for real things. USA and Israel may be more important than his own nation (India is a stinkhole) for a desi boy trumpeting the glory of America ( and Israel) ,spouting a cant one can already get on Fox news. But both have diminished the goodwill they have had and continue to do so. Israel was the "occupier" in the 40's in Palestine but it built up a huge goodwill in the 60's and 70's when the Munich and Entebbe like events showed them to be an underdog defying the odds. They won great admiration and following then, but in the last decade their intransigence has frittered that admiration and following. Today the Palestinian is the underdog , and Israel the bully. Europe sees it, but USA and it's Jewish lobbies do not, and the USA does not see how the blank Check they give to Israel erodes their own goodwill.

And as far as importance of Individuals goes forget nations, Osama or Hezbollah or even Hamas would get more importance from the USA and Israel than a collegite anywhere in the world. ( That includes YOU too my friend, Austin Texas will not help, your skin is the wrong colour there and you are from the wrong religion for them to care ). What is more laughable about the whole discussion is when there is no logic or answers available you resort to name calling and accusations. You have indulged in name calling, accusing other religions, running down countries, and then you call others anti something ? That is indeed rich.But what am I doing talking logic to you ? does not work with you. So are you a closet white supremacist ? Hail all things white and run down the heathen non whites ( including your "stinkhole" country ). ?

I am warning you one last time. Do not resort to insults or ad-hominem attacks again or you will be violating wikipedia rules and I will act accordingly. Remain civil and courteous and I will be so as well. You have demonstrated a clear anti-semitic bias by attacking Israel needlessly. Jewish lobby? There is no such thing. Another anti-Semitic lie. Typical of anti-semites, to blame everything on the 'Joooooo's'. You have been around too many muslims. Jews in this country are too powerful and well connected to care about you and what you think. They have made this country what it is, and are rightly fighting for their homeland in Israel. They support us because the enemy of an enemy is an ally. Too bad again...

Sorry, but Palestine still doesn't exist as far as anyone important is concerned.And yes, we Hindus have many powerful friends here in the USA. Neoconservatives are on the side of Hindutva as far as India is concerned, and they are the REAL opinion makers in this country. Too bad again. Plus, Hindutva is not regarded by any accredited organization as fascist. Too bad for you again. No amount of ranting and chest-beating will change that.Netaji 11:20, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

I am warning you that your language and personal attacks which have lead to bans in the past are repeating themselves here and with other users. You ARE violating wiki rules, and I have acted in response to your blatant personal attacks.

"Desi" is not an insult "bubba" is.

If you find "closet white supremacist" insulting please look at your own "closet anti semite".

"What's the F'ing problem" is also offensive ( on Talk:Hinduism_and_the_Sikh_Panth)

I have not attacked Israel "Denying voting rights to palestinians" is not an attack on Israel. It is an attack on one policy of Israel. Does not make a person an anti semite and you are not the world's policeman or decision maker on semitism or anti semitism, I have an opinion that Israel is wrong on that point, you can disagree with it without accusations that are personal. You did not and I responded in kind, so if you can't take it then watch what you dish out.

USA and Israel are more important than YOU" is also a personal attack.

"India is a stinkhole" is an offensive thing to say to someone who lives in India and is proud of it- warts and all (and then you give lectures on self hatred).

"Dear Osama fan" is insulting and personal.

Here is the western media's opinion on Jewish lobby ( might not get coverage on Fox). Your not agreeing to a thing does not remove it's existence, as is the case with Palestine and Palestinians. You can deny their existence won't change the facts that Palestinans won't go away.

You can imagine US support for Hindutva ( and the USA spoils things by signing a nuclear deal with the Socialist leftist Congress UPA government- so much for supporting Hindutva). Forget supporting Hindutva 99.99999999% Neoconservative American Christians would not be able to find India on the map let alone know what Hindu is, don't even talk of Hindutva. A guy in a white dhoti and head shaven going "Hare Krishna" they would identify as a hippy.They are internally focussed and want USA to be US centric and keep the world ( including immigrants who do not have the right religion or skin colour. Even "off White not quite white Mexicans won't do even if they are Christian) outside. You can claim them to be friends they won't claim you.

Haphar 14:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

HA!HA! Palestinians will go away when they are a hole in the ground, made there by Israel. Here is the truth about the nonexistent Jewish Lobby . They have completely annihiliated two anti-semites who tried to tout this 'Jewish Lobby' nonsense. Neoconservative Americans DO support Hindus. Check Daniel Pipes's website. He has repeatedly said that Hindus should be supported against muslims in America. Plus, this neocon blog is a classic example of growing support for Hindus among neocons . Who cares about standard conservatives? It's NEO-conservatives that count. They are the REAL opinion makers in this country. Too bad my friend. America is waking up to the truth.Netaji 19:15, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Do you have any non jaundiced source, Koenraad Erst is not even remotely an expert, and Daniel Pipes is known to be jaundiced. Neocon is Ann Coulter, she won't be able to spell Hindu forget liking Hindutva. Try Rush Limbaugh ( proof that right wingers do take drugs) They won't even know the direction that India is in.

ADL is your source for debunking the lobby ? A website dedicated for protecting a religion is a neutral party to claims that the religion manipulates the media ? This is where the Ha Ha with caps lock and cymbal clashing should happen, in a deep rich baritone.And you expect ADL to fall at the feet of two guys showing the extent of the Jewsih lobby ? That's like giving a Pakistani website's analysis in response to an Indian claim of Pakistan supporting Terrorsim in India. Non even worth considering. A blog is all you have to show for support for 800 million people ? That's all ? And this is the great awakening.Boo ha ha hum to dar gaye (in your words but with the cymbals and the deep baritone). Haphar 19:37, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

The blog is representative. I have interacted with neocons on a fairly regular basis and they support Hindus.Daniel Pipes is a think tank leader and is US government financed. Too bad. Secularists can yell and scream all the epithets, insults and personal atatcks that they want. It gives life meaning to them, I know. Too bad for them that their opponents are too powerful for them to handle.

Elst IS an expert and has degrees and experience to prove it. No way you can debunk him without scholarly support. Without that, it's original research at best, character assassination at worst. More anti-semitism is expressed by attacking ADL and veiled accusations of a 'Jewish Conspiracy' (a fantasy of which ADL is a part of too ,presumably. Whose next, The Templars? Aliens? The Banks? Elvis Presley? Perhaps everybody who exposes your bias is a Jewish pawn, eh? These are standard rubbish touted by anti-semites),like white supremacists do on their web sites.Netaji 11:21, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Sure it is representative, representative of a few extreme right wing fringe elements who get on there. Elst is an expert on voice of dharma site, No one but loony right wingers (who swear by Varsha Bhosle) quote him and his laughable comments like " Teesta has secretly converted to Islam" are made without any data. So much of an expert that not even right wing rags like Saamna have repeated this slander.

ADL is a site that is for defence of Jews, so it is for Jews, it cannot be seen as a neutral party in an issue regarding Jews. That is not any veiled accusation, the site itself mentions it. A site proposed to defends Jews is not neutral on an issue where Jews are involved. It can have an opinion or POV but it would not be seen as unbiased. So like one does not expect the RSS or the Shiv Sena or the VHP to be neutral parties on Ayodhya, ADL is not neutral on an issue talking of a Jewish Lobby. Well you want to bring the Templars and Aliens and Banks as well as Elvis to the party you can do so, they would be better than the sorry list of sources you have sourced so far. So get of your hysterical name calling horse,just shows that you have run out of facts again

Haphar 15:20, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

While this debate is fascinating and edifying, and I can feel my hair growing thicker and curlier just by reading it, it doesn't seem to be directed at improving the article in any way. Would you mind, therefore, desisting from posting off-topic discussions here, and take them to your respective talk pages, or even better, to e-mail or some other web forum? There are plenty of places on the web for this sort of thing. This is not the purpose of Misplaced Pages. Graft 16:17, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

German Hindutva

The germans practised real hindutva. (Why they chose to be aryan & adopted swastika?) They were inspired by Helena Blavatsky and Max Muller. The germany in WWII was real Hindu Rastra. The article is silent about german phenomenon. Let some wise guy expose it.--Anirudh777 10:11, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Quod erat demonstrantum. See section above. (Pusyamitra Sunga 11:09, 7 July 2006 (UTC))

That comment shows your ignornace of the subject. Hitler was Christian, the Germans exploted the AIT and Swastika for their own Racist thought. This page is about Hindutva, not Nazism. Nobleeagle (Talk) 00:32, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

Laughable content

I am sure Subhash is busy wrecking this article too by this propoganda, just like the Shiv Sena article. Hindus believe India to be their "fatherland"? This echoes Hitler's refering Germany as fatherland. Let us purge this article of charged and propoganda based statements like these.--Wikindian 17:26, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

All backed by references. Shouldn't you be cleaning Osama's dialysis machine, mate?Netaji 17:45, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

The pitribhumi claim in in veer Savarkar's writings. Your constant houndings remind people of Yasser Arafat.Netaji 17:47, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Subhash, you should rephrase the statement as "according to Savarkar...." and not state it as a fact. By saying that "Hindus believe India to be their pitrubhum...," you are claiming that all Hindu nationalists hold this view. Maybe you should put an intro in the section like "Views on Hindutva by prominent Hindu nationalists (like Savarkar)." It is subtle changes like these that wreck the article. And, where is the source for this statement? Which book, or newspaper etc. quoted Savarkar?

--Wikindian 21:48, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

Here. Google is a friend of the Gods.Netaji 21:52, 25 July 2006 (UTC)

As per the Article quoted above "To Savarkar, Hindutva was akin to a national ideology of all those who regarded India as its pitribhumi (fatherland) and punyabhumi (holy land). " Does not talk of Hindus here.( er and the net seems friendly to ALL gods, not just one religion) Haphar 11:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

He talks of Hindus as a race, not as a religion.Defamation won't work. Savarkar spoke of Hindus as 'those of the hind-land' ie all those who adhered to native Indian religions and cultures.Hindu can be used in two ways.Remember 'Taraana-e-Hind' again? Don't try to muddle the issue with your hate.Netaji 11:04, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

He said Hindutva- Quoting from the source you provided from the Divine Google. This is specific to the fatherland issue and the link provided. So as per this he his talking of Hindutva only and not just Hindu's. Where is the "hate" coming from ? Just clarifying what has been provided as a link by you is saying about this topic. Don't create a muddle by getting racial here, the religion angle is causing enough of a debate. Haphar 14:51, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

All right, I apologize for this post for overreacting; I should have read that section more carefully. But I am sure that there is plenty of Hindu nationalist propoganda in this article that needs to be neutralized. --Wikindian 16:46, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

'Hindu' in 'Hindutva' is meant to be used in the tarana-e-hind context ie ethnic Hindus.This is an article ON HINDU NATIONALISM. Therefore, it's point of view needs to be represented and given credence. There is no propaganda here. There is more secular propaganda on Hindu articles. A criticism section is also there, where anti-Hindus are free to vent all the hate that they want.Netaji 11:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Another flagrant personal attack from me

Yes, their views hold no logic, all they want to do is to strangle Mother India, who is already being violated by Muslims. After all Hindus are beautiful and innocent angels and Muslims bloodlusting jackals, aren't they? Aha!, finally goccha! Wonder why it took so long, though. Probably couldn't digest sweeping generalizations, that's why.

Well, Hindus didn't ram planes into buildings or bomb trains. We never instigated, only retaliate when the stupid UPA government failed to do it's duty and protect the people of India from terrorism.Netaji 05:01, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikindian's disgusting attempts to excrete hate

Stop adding rubbish and nonsense to this talk page. Either argue civilly, or leaveNetaji 11:12, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

My experience with you Neta has been that you have been uncivil, insulting and derogatory. For you to talk of civility is not fair. I can vouch that the loss of civility is almost always in response to your insults. Would request you to cool down and you would find that the rest would do so too. Haphar 14:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

When users engage in coordinated acts of character assassination, vandalism, ad-hominem attacks and repeated and unchecked derogation, there is often no choice but to respond.Netaji 11:13, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Who are you to preach civility then? And are you trying to enforce civility by being even more uncivil? --Wikindian 03:42, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

In order to fight bad people sometimes one must be equally bad.Netaji 04:59, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Which is why we have stopped to your level Haphar 14:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

THERAPY FOR THE CHAUVINISTS

I find it unfortunate that a few rhino-skinned Hindu chauvinists are wrecking articles on Hinduism in Misplaced Pages. The basic problem with them is that they are so distanced from the street reality and politics of India that they have carved fantastic dreams about Hindutva and the evilness of all Muslims in India. Everything is black and white for them. They have become so hooked to the propoganda that it is like drug-addiction. Anything that has the effect of neutralizing this addiction is dubbed as "liberal propoganda." So, they ignore most of the news sources today. Instead, they base their serpentine scholarship on blind pro-Hindu propoganda from dubious and extremist sources. And then, in all their holy fervor and righteousness, they infect articles such as this one with dysentric and jaundiced views. Anyone who seeks to neutralize their wild language becomes a terrorist-lover, Osama's right hand. The fact is that most politicians, including the all-mighty, fuerher-like Thackeray (who claims that he is a devotee of Lord Vitthala) have only one aim: to stay in power by making the puppett-population dance. And the chauvinists are the most agile puppets, it seems to me. So, PLEASE don't wreck this articles, and, if you think that you have this disease, consult the talk page before inserting any pro-blind-Hindutva propoganda. Thanks for your attention.--Wikindian 18:00, 26 July 2006 (UTC)

Don't engage in off-topic rants against Balasaheb. It detracts from your credibility (already pretty weak from your ad-hominem attack above). Character assassination seems to be the forte of many in the liberal left when they can't counter with legitimate arguments...Netaji 11:09, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

As if you are paying heed to the piles of arguments that I made on the Talk:Shiv Sena page. Don't twist the issue. --Wikindian 16:23, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Rhino-skinned haha. Black, white, gray? Please define the skin colorBakaman%% 03:35, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Your capital-lettered threat to Hindus shows that you are a chauvinist yourself. As I've said below, the primary sources of Sangh Parivar publications should be cited and quoted. A lot of nonsensical secondary sources have been quoted on the talk page. These must be at best put aside for a criticsim and allegations section. Otherwise, there is no way to improve this article. Misplaced Pages is not a site for hatred or propaganda. Let us keep this "strictly business, not personal". --→Talk 07:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

All three of you get a warning

Please stop these pointless personal attacks. Don't think the other person has insulted you more than you insulted them, all three of you are uncivil in your 'dispute resolution'. Consider this a warning. Next time I see this I'll report the uncivil ones and they are likely to get a block. Nobleeagle (Talk) 10:08, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for monitoring this issue.Netaji 11:10, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Request to add template

{Editprotected} Request to add {{Template:Hindu reform movements}}. This would be apt. --→Talk 01:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Done.--Commander Keane 04:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Suggestions towards removing POV

1. Rely on primary sources (Sangh parivar publications and Hindu authors)
2. Make a criticism section and dump all the criticisms of secondary and tertiary sources there
3. Avoid ad hominem attacks on talk page.
4. Delete/ modify these attacks as per Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith and Misplaced Pages:Civility

--→Talk 04:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

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