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| #REDIRECT ] | |||
| ==Old discussion== | |||
| Your citing Benny Morris?? | |||
| There is no discussion page so I am starting it. | |||
| Zero, if you any sepcific reason to dispute any fact in the article please explain or suggest an alternative. ] 12:58, 11 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :This is ridiculous...purely biased. I dont even have time to change it because all of it biased. | |||
| : A large amount of your addition is historical rubbish. It never happened. I'm wondering if you are really a certain obsessive POV pusher who was banned last year. --] 13:26, 11 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: I am not obesssive. I am not pushing any POV. My edit is not rubbish. I can see an RfA coming. | |||
| :: If you have other account of these events, for example if you think that Jews remained in Hebron after 1929, feel free to source it and suggest that the clain of ] is wrong. It is always possible that historic events have more than one version, you are free to bring the minority view into this article. (keep in mind it is the disnabguity article for ] ] 13:30, 11 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: As I said repeatedly, the surviving Jews of Hebron were evacuated by the British after the massacre. None of them were expelled by the Arabs (which is what your sentences imply) even though of course it was the Arab violence that made the evacuation desirable. After about 2 years many of the Jews of Hebron returned there, but around 1936 the start of the Arab Rebellion made the security situation precarious again and the British authorities convinced those Jews to leave again. That's what happened; it's not an opinion and it is not equal in value to whatever rubbish you can find on the web. Unfortunately, you come across as an obsessive POV pusher with political opinions but no actual knowledge except a Google search box. --] 14:20, 11 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ::: I guess you were actually there and you know the truth. Google is something that we all use. Fell free to add any fact that I forgot. I will do it shortly if you do not. This is a coloborative editing effort and you are <b> more than welcome </b> to take part in it instead of just use the revert option or writing sarcstic comments. ] 14:49, 11 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: I see no attempt to highlight other wrong facts (corrected the one about the British). so id this page going to be protected forever ? ] 09:17, 12 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Claims== | |||
| Some brief comments on recent claims. | |||
| * Many of the additions consist entirely of vitriolic comment, devoid of facts. Some are simply lies, such as "Observers heard Husseini issue the call: Itback al-Yahud 'Slaughter the Jews!'" Let's see that one reported in a contemporary source or supported by an academic historian. Such crap illustrates the uselessness of the source from which this material is copied. | |||
| * "minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem" - that is not accurate. The disputes were about the ''manner'' of using the Wall. The Arabs insisted that the Jews observe the long-standing agreements (from Ottoman times) that allowed unlimited access but did not allow practices such as erecting barriers and blowing shofars. The Jews wanted to do those things. That's what the disputes were about. It is all meticulously documented in British reports. | |||
| * "proceeded to burn ] prayer books such as the ] and ]" - the two "examples" were added gratuitously without evidence. Actually Moslems would not knowingly burn the Torah. | |||
| * "On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa..." - that paragraph is almost entirely emotive repetition of the story which is told dispassionately elsewhere in the article. | |||
| * "The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern histo....mass of frenzied Arab rioters...bloody rampage" - there is no place in the article for such purple polemic. It sounds like a supermarket tabloid. | |||
| * "The dead Jews that day included Eliezer Dan Slonim..." - That's true but why does he deserve a whole paragraph of our little article? If he was really an important person, write an article on him. | |||
| * "He had many friends among the Arab elders, who had promised to protect him." - A nasty attack on unamed Arabs who may or may not have been in a position to help this person. Btw, there is a list in the Israeli archives of 435 Jews who were saved by Arabs, along with the names of the Arabs who saved them. | |||
| * "By the end of the riot, during which the British police did nothing to protect the Jews or stop the violence, sixty-seven Jews were dead and hundreds wounded." - an outrageous slander! There was only one British policeman in the whole town and he did everything he could. | |||
| * "The survivors were isolated in a police station for three days while the Arabs rampaged through their houses, stealing and destroying Jewish property, unmolested by the British authorities." - who says? Anyway, shouldn't the over-stretched British authorities have been protecting the lives of citizens from the riots that continued elsewhere, rather than looking after property? (Guess what; they were.) | |||
| That's a start. It gives the idea. The big problem is that the article should not be written emotively and should not sound as if it was written by the mothers of the victims. We are here to recount historical events, not to evoke tears or anger or any other emotion. --] 10:48, 12 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| This is great. I welcome the new spirit of cooperation. | |||
| I will address, each of youir points and remove or altrer the text as needed. | |||
| All this under one <b> very important guideline </b>: that the yardstick / policy used will be equal for articles or issues that address events that Palestinians care about in the same way we address the one Jews care about. | |||
| Let me give you an example: | |||
| * You say: | |||
| ::: "The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern histo....mass of frenzied Arab rioters...bloody rampage" - there is no place in the article for such purple polemic. It sounds like a supermarket tabloid." | |||
| On the other hand on article ] we find: | |||
| ::: (Palestinians suffer) "the most intricate and pervasive expression of persistent colonialism, apartheid, racism, and victimization. More than half a century ago , the Palestinians as a people were slated for national obliteration, cast outside the course of history, their identity denied, " | |||
| So when applying the same yardstick of "no place in the article for such purple polemic. It sounds like a supermarket tabloid." - <b> we will apply it equallly across the articles of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict </b>. | |||
| :::: One is a quote from a named person and the other is text you want to insert. Those are different things and go by different rules. When we quote we have to use exact words, but when we write ourselves we have to be concise and not emotive. --] 23:31, 12 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| * You say: | |||
| ::: "Such crap illustrates the uselessness of the source from which this material is copied." | |||
| We will apply this yard stick to quotes that arrived from sites that pure propeganda that no one accpet such as quotes from web sites or books of those who deny the holocaust (a claim known to be "crap and illustrates the uselessness of the source".) | |||
| * You also say: | |||
| ::: "article should not be written emotively and should not sound as if it was written by the mothers of the victims." | |||
| And I agree. We will write the facts in an encyclopediac manner and we will present both (sourced) sides when the two POV conflict with each other. This again would apply not just to this article. | |||
| Do we have an agreement and can go to work ? | |||
| Signed: ] 14:58, 12 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| Zero: | |||
| You wrote: "We are here to recount historical events, not to evoke tears or anger or any other emotion." | |||
| This should apply to the quotes we choose to use or not ? | |||
| ] 04:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == missing info == | |||
| The article on the conflict over the Western Wall should start with the general factors and concrete incidents that started it and those were: | |||
| Meaning of the place: | |||
| a) for the Jews the Wailing Wall is the most holy place of their religion because it is the last reminder of the site on which Solomon's temple once stood. | |||
| b) for the Muslims the wall is part of the third holiest site of their religion, the Haram al-Sharif or Temple Mount, on top of which stands the al-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock, where Mohammed once ascended to heaven. | |||
| Incidents leading up to the conflict: | |||
| In 1929 there were living quarters next to the wall and only a narrow street went along the wall. Already during the 19th century when the number of Jews praying at the wall was increasing, there were attempts to put up a screen in that street to separate women from men. This was objected by the local inhabitants as an obstruction to their use of the street. In 1919, under the British mandate then Zionist leaders proposed simply buying the wall. This was clearly opposed by the Supreme Muslim Council in Jerusalem, which in turn was supported tentatively by the British administration. | |||
| On September 24, 1928, a screen was installed along the wall to divide men from women while praying. The screen blocked the narrow street so the Arab inhabitants protested and British authorities removed the screen. That action was condemned internationally by Zionist officials and taken to the League of Nations. For both Jews and Muslims the issue had become very important and a political face down. Nevertheless for another year matters did not escalate. | |||
| In July 1929 the mufti of Jerusalem, Hajj Amin al-Hussaini, ordered building activities to be resumed around the wall. This in turn aroused the Zionist protests by Betar on August 15, which then escalated into the Wailing Wall riots. | |||
| This whole part needs to be inserted in the beginning of the article or it doesn't make sense at all. TMSTAPF | |||
| === what else is missing === | |||
| From 1922 through 1928 the relationship between Jews and Arabs in Palestine was relatively peaceful. However, in late 1928 a new phase of violence began with minor disputes between Jews and Arabs about the right of Jews to pray at the Western Wall (Kotel) in Jerusalem. These arguments led to an outbreak of Arab violence in August 1929 when Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem, fomented Arab hatred by accusing the Jews of endangering the mosques and other sites holy to Islam. Observers heard Husseini issue the call: Itback al-Yahud "Slaughter the Jews!" | |||
| (we also need to cover the fact that he lost election to Nashibi and wanted to regain public support) the way he choose was to evoke religious hatred against the jews. | |||
| On August 15, 1929, rumors spread across the Arab comunity by leaflets - some apparently prepared in advance by Muslims -declared that the Jews were preparing to take control of the holy place and that Muslims should come to Jerusalem to defend them. | |||
| On Friday, August 16, 1929, after an inflammatory sermon, a demonstration organized by the Supreme Muslim Council, marched to the Wall and proceeded to burn Jewish prayer books that rae usually found near the wall (books such a "sidur" which include pareyrs from the Tora) supplicatory notes left in the Wall's cracks (considered sacred paryet between a person and his creator) were burned as well. | |||
| The acting High Commissioner Harry Luke answered to the jews compliants that "no prayer books had been burnt but only pages of prayer books". The Arab riots continued, and the next day one Jew was killed in the Bukharan Quarter. His funeral was turned into a political demonstration. | |||
| On August 20, Haganah leaders proposed to provide defense for 600 Jews of the Old Yishuv in Hebron or help them evacuate, but the community leaders declined these offers, insisting that they trust the A'yan (Arab leadership) to protect them. | |||
| On August 22, 1929 the leaders of the Yishuv (Jewish community in Palestine) met with the British Deputy High Commissioner to alert him of their fears of a large Arab riot. The British officials assured them that the government was in control of the situation. The following day the Riots of 1929 erupted throughout the Palestine Mandate, lasting for seven days. | |||
| On Friday, August 23, Arab mobs attacked Jews in Jerusalem, Motza, Hebron, Safed, Jaffa, and other parts of the country. The Old City of Jerusalem was hit particularly hard. By the next day, the Haganah was able to mount a defense and further attacks in Jerusalem were repulsed. But, the violence in Jerusalem generated rumors throughout the country, many carrying fabricated accounts of Jewish attempts to defile Muslim holy places, all to inflame the Arab residents. Villages were plundered and destroyed by Arab mobs. While attacks on Jews in Tel Aviv and Haifa were thwarted by Jewish defenses, there were Jewish deaths in Hebron, where 67 Jewish men and women were slaughtered and Safed, where 18 Jews were killed, as well as scattered other losses totaling 133 Jewish deaths, with more than 300 wounded. | |||
| The next Friday, August 23, 1929, Arabs, inflamed by false rumors that two Arabs had been killed by Jews started a murderous attack on Jews in the Old City. The violence quickly spread to other parts of the Palestine, Arab policemen often joining the mobs. The Arab violence in Hebron was one of the worst atrocities in the modern history of Palestine: Jerusalem Arabs came to Hebron with false reports of Jews murdering Arabs during the rioting there, even saying thousands of Arabs had been killed. Despite the fact that Jews and Arabs in Hebron had been on good terms, a mass of frenzied Arab rioters formed and proceeded to the Hebron Yeshiva where a lone student was murdered. The next day, the Jewish Sabbath, the killing continued as an Arab mob of hundreds surrounded homes where Jews sought refuge, broke in and murdered scores of Jews in a bloody rampage. | |||
| The dead Jews that day included Eliezer Dan Slonim, a man highly esteemed by the Arabs. He was the director of the local English-Palestine bank whose many clients were Arabs, and was the sole Jewish member of the Hebron Municipal Council. He had many friends among the Arab elders, who had promised to protect him. Twenty-two people died in Slonim's house that day including his wife and two young children. | |||
| By the end of the riot, during which the British police did nothing to protect the Jews or stop the violence, sixty-seven Jews were dead and hundreds wounded. The survivors were isolated in a police station for three days while the Arabs rampaged through their houses, stealing and destroying Jewish property, unmolested by the British authorities. At the end of the three days the survivers from the Jewish comumnity of Hebron were sent to Jerusalem, by the British authorities, who feared for their lives and were unable to protect them in Hebron. Hebron's ancient Jewish quarter was by that time empty and destroyed. | |||
| Throughout Palestine British authorities had only 292 policemen, fewer than 100 soldiers, six armored cars, and five or six aircraft. | |||
| While a number of Jews were being killed at the Jaffa Gate, British policemen did not open fire. By August 24, 17 Jews were killed in the Jerusalem area. | |||
| The massacre | |||
| The worst atrocities occurred in Hebron and Safed, where massacres of Jews occurred. In Hebron, Arab mobs killed 67 Jews and wounded many others. The lone British policeman in the town, Raymond Cafferata, was overwhelmed and the reinforcements he called for did not arrive for 5 hours (leading to bitter recriminations). | |||
| Cafferata later testified that: | |||
| "On hearing screams in a room I went up a sort of tunnel passage and saw an Arab in the act of cutting off a child's head with a sword. He had already hit him and was having another cut, but on seeing me he tried to aim the stroke at me, but missed; he was practically on the muzzle of my rifle. I shot him low in the groin. Behind him was a Jewish woman smothered in blood with a man I recognized as a police constable named Issa Sherif from Jaffa in mufti. He was standing over the woman with a dagger in his hand. He saw me and bolted into a room close by and tried to shut me out-shouting in Arabic, "Your Honor, I am a policeman." ... I got into the room and shot him." | |||
| On August 24, 1929 the violence reached its zenith with an attack on the Jewish community of Hebron, which numbered approximately 600 at the time. Violence was both imported and home-grown, with witnesses reporting both the arrival of outside elements and the rising up on locals against their neighbors. The worst attacks were carried out against the Slobodko Rabbinical College and a preparatory school in Hebron, 30 students were killed. A group of Arabs rushed into the college, killing, among others, twelve American citizens and wounding fifteen other American citizens. The Shaw commission reports that: About 9 o’clock on the morning of the 24th of August, Arabs in Hebron made a most ferocious attack on the Jewish ghetto and on isolated Jewish houses lying outside the crowded quarters of the town. More than 60 Jews—including many women and children—were murdered and more than 50 were wounded…Jewish Synagogues were desecrated, a Jewish hospital, which had provided treatment for Arabs, was attacked and ransacked" | |||
| Some Arab neighbors took in their Jewish friends and hid them from the mob —the family of Avrum Burg, former Speaker of the Israeli Knesset has reported that his family was saved in such a way. With time, the Haganah entered the fray and, together with British forces and mentionable numbers of Arab policemen, the violence was suppressed in Hebron. A British Colonial Office communiqué issued on August 26 stated that, “Up to the present the known casualties include forty-five Jews killed, while fifty-nine Jews were seriously wounded. Moslem casualties were eight killed and ten wounded. The town is now reported quiet, but 450 Jews have been temporarily accommodated in police barracks.” Describing the community, Joseph Levy of the New York Times wrote that “almost all of (the Jewish residents of Hebron) belonged to families who have lived there for three generations and always on the friendliest and most neighborly.” But by the time the riot was over the Jewish community had evacuated the city. | |||
| The other major centers of violence were in Safed, where 18 Jews were killed in a brief attack, and in Jerusalem. | |||
| During the week of riots, the fatalities were: | |||
| Killed: 133 Jews, 116 Arabs. | |||
| Wounded: 339 Jews, 232 Arabs. | |||
| The Jews were mostly killed by Arabs, while the Arabs were mostly killed by British-commanded police and soldiers. | |||
| On September 1, Sir John Chancellor condemned "the atrocious acts committed by bodies of ruthless and bloodthirsty evildoers... murders perpetrated upon defenseless members of the Jewish population... accompanied by acts of unspeakable savagery." | |||
| ] 08:16, 17 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| I don't get it. How is the Jews' demonstration to express their desire to blow the Shofar at the Wailing Wall justification for a bloody massacre? This eas nothing but a blood libel, no different from the pogroms of Europe. Why does this page perpetrate the lie that the Jews declared that they wanted to conquer the wall? | |||
| See the book of Rabbi Moshe Segal, who organized the march. The demonstration lasted one day and the "perpetrators", incl. R' Moshe, obm, were jailed. The march was aimed at the Brits who had put stringent controls on the prayer rights of the Jews at the Wailing Wall to appease the Arabs. This included the famous ban on blowing the shofar on Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur, which R' Moshe was the first to break. His book, מדור לדור is very worth reading if you understand Hebrew well enough. | |||
| This information should be added, instead of the vague implication that the Jews were threatening to conquer the Wall. | |||
| : Sounds like R' Moshe was an agitator who contributed to the climate of tension. I'm not surprised the Brits arrested him. Btw, you are wrong about ban on shofar blowing. The Brits didn't invent it, they just continued the Ottoman rules. And nobody here, nor the article, said anything about anything justifying the massacre; that's just your imagination. --] 14:08, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: Prefect OR by Zero ] 15:27, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: To start an article about the massacre of jews by "on .., Jews marching shouted...." does not suggest anything ... sure. | |||
| :: This from a person that deleted the line that started "from 1922 to 1928 relations were good betwen jews and arabs" | |||
| :: The truth is of course that HUsseni (who was defeted in his arce from Jerusalem township council) by Nashibi decided to create tension that he could lead. As an Imam religion gave him the perfect pretext. The text will refelct that. ] 15:30, 14 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| == Unprotected == | |||
| I've unprotected this page - please do not resort to revert wars if you still don't see eye to eye over everything. If there is a dispute, try one of the established ] procedures. Thanks. ] 12:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| : As expected, Zeq just put back the same purple text that started this fuss, complete with "frenzied Arab rioters" and similar unacceptable phrases. --] 13:52, 29 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :: "frenzied Arab rioters" is a cut and paste from other web site but in any case please explain what is wrong with it if it describe what took place. We are talkingabout a mob that comited a massacre so please help me understand why are you complaing . I am listening. ] 21:59, 29 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::Cutting and pasting is generally against Misplaced Pages rules. Also, remember that you have to present each POV in a NPOV fashion. Describing "frenzied Arab rioters" is not NPOV, it is a description of the right-wing page you got it from, and not suitable as is for a Misplaced Pages article. You could for example, provide a quotation from a notable newscaster back then who "described the rioters as frenzied" (just as an example). But cutting and pasting a POV from a website does not contribute to NPOV. Each POV has to be presented neutrally. It's not hard to understand. ] <sup><small><font color="DarkBlue">]</font></small></sup> 22:49, 29 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| :::: You are 100% correct. I did this in a rush way and the result is wrong. ] 07:20, 30 December 2005 (UTC) | |||
| ==Unthinkable title for this page== | |||
| The page should be named "Masscare of 1929 in Hebron" and other areas. The atrocious acts done by the arabs to the Jewish communinty is very well documented and although chilling and very sad, this is the truth and it should not be covered up as "riots" which sounds neutral as if both sides are to blame or something (!) ] 02:00, 19 July 2006 (UTC) | |||
| : I agree, and sionce there was no objections I went ahead and changed the title. In light of ], ], etc., it is wrong to imply that while the Jews repeatedly commit "massacres", the Arabs merely "riot". ←] <sup>]</sup> 21:49, 8 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::thank you. ] 11:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| And we start all over again. I renamed the page ]. That is what happened: a simple massacre of Jews by Arabs. It didn't only happen in Hebron; it happened in Jerusalem and Safed also. I assume everybody agrees on the current title. --] 21:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Isn't Hebron massacre the name by which it is most commonly known? ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :A quite Google search gives about 10,000 hits for +"Hebron massacre"+1929, vs. about 300 for +"Palestine riots"+1929, and 1 for "Palestine massacre"+1929. I suggest it be moved back to the common name, following Misplaced Pages naming conventions. ]<sup><small><font color="DarkGreen">]</font></small></sup> 22:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::I agree and I also prefer ]. However, some don't agree and want it to be ]. My version is a (bad) compromise. I prefer Hebron massacre. --] 23:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::And if anybody wishes to have 'massacre' replaced by 'riots', we will change ] into ], ] into ] etc. --] 07:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :::You are talking here about individual events, not a series or riots, demonstrations and massacres such as occured during the 1929 Palestine riots. --] 07:35, 10 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ==POV== | |||
| I have found this page to be seriously flawed and biased, using exaggerated and emotionally charged language and citing specious sources. In line with civilised debate, I have made some edits to the page to make it less biased, but keeping many unsubstantiated claims for the sake civility. However, I have found my edits disrespectfully cancelled. Therefore, I am marking this page as NPOV diputed and would like to invite various contributors to an intellegent debate over its content.--] 15:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :Your edits did not consist of anything constructive. Yes, the victims in Hebron were anti-Zionist Orthodox Jews. That deserves mentioning and I put that back, though not in the introduction. I also added some other background information, such as the fact that Muslims control(led) the entire Temple Mount yet refused to grant the Jews the right to pray even just at the Western Well. --] 16:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::Thank you for incorporating some of my edits, but I still find other problems with the text: | |||
| ::1. The introduction is very misleading: "The Hebron massacre refers to the violent destruction of the ancient Jewish community of Hebron by Arab rioters in late August of 1929." The massacre was not the destruction of an ancient Jewish community. Check the entry ], does it say it is the destruction of the German Jewish community? Although in the latter it was actually about anihilating the Jews, but not in the former. The massacre was about killing some Orthodox Jews in Hebron in retaliation for a perceived Zionist plan to take over Muslim Holy sites, no more, no less. | |||
| ::2.The part which talks about them being Anti-Zionist Jews is ver important. Well, perhaps it should not be put in the introduction, but it should be highlighted to stress how the ignorant mobs failed to differentiate between Zionist and non-Zionist Jews. | |||
| ::3. Some parts of the text are pure tautology (e.g. "unsubstantiated rumors". All rumors are unsubstantiated, that's why they are called rumors. You cannot say they are "false" either because that can only be said post factum) | |||
| ::4. Some of the sources cited are specious. The parts about burning prayer books and rape of women are ridiculous. Only credible sources should be cited, or else the credibilty of quotes put in doubt. | |||
| ::I would like to keep the NPOV mark on the article until we are through with our discussion. I hope you do not mind.--] 16:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: the killing and raping of the Jewish people in Hebron is all very thoroughly documented. | |||
| ::: the anti zionist claim if not only untrue, but it's irrelevant. | |||
| ::: the intro doesn't suggest it was premedidated (in fact the article says the opposite), but the result was the destruction of the old community. your POV about muslim holy sites is ridicolous. you have shown nothing concrete and provided no citations for your abuse of the article. I don't mind leaving the npov for a while , but only temporary to see if someone has something concrete to say and not just anti-semitic propaganda. ] 16:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Amoruso, you asked for a citation about Zionist attempts to but the wailing wall and the fact that the massacred Jews were Anti-Zionist. I refer you to Anita Shapira, "Land and Power: The Zionist Resort to Force, 1881–1948" (New York: OxfordUniversity Press, 1992), pp. 176–77. The fact that they were Anti-Zionist is not irrelevant (cf. #2 above). Moreover, even if the result was the destruction of that community, that does not equate the massacre with the destruction. Some sensible replies please :-) --] 16:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: if you want, you can add her opinion then. Only one not being sensible is you. ] 17:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| :: Amoruso, you claim that the killing and raping in Hebron is thoroughly documented. Could you please offer some proper citation for that. I am afraid the sources cited are dubious. They are all web-pages that list some anonymous eyewitness accounts. I am sure you know that eyewitness accounts (even when properly identified) are hardly considered evidence, both academically and legally (cf. ]). I shall give a full list of unsubstantiated claims in this entry that need proper support before being stated. Who said writing an encyclopedia was easy? Any historians around?--] 18:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
| ::: the witness reports have been documented by established historians time and again. It's not at all dubious sources. ] 19:11, 9 August 2006 (UTC) | |||
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