Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 21:54, 31 October 2015

The project page associated with this talk page is an official policy on Misplaced Pages. Policies have wide acceptance among editors and are considered a standard for all users to follow. Please review policy editing recommendations before making any substantive change to this page. Always remember to keep cool when editing, and don't panic.

view · edit Frequently asked questions I disagree with the definition of secondary source. Misplaced Pages mostly follows the definition in use by historians, which requires more than simply repeating information from some other source or rearranging information from the author's notes. The earliest definition of a secondary source in this policy was in February 2004 "one that analyzes, assimilates, evaluates, interprets, and/or synthesizes primary sources". This published, reliable source is engaging in original research. We allow our reliable sources to engage in original research of their own – indeed that's their job, and we rely on them to do so. Our job as Misplaced Pages editors is to put reliable sources' research into article form. I've proven that general relativity is wrong, but the physics journals won't publish my proof. Can I use Misplaced Pages to publish my ideas about how Einstein was wrong? I can cite lots of sources in the article to support each piece of the puzzle. No. If you want to put a whole idea in Misplaced Pages, you need to be able to cite a source that contains the whole idea, not just isolated bits of it.

This page has been cited as a source by a notable professional or academic publication: Stvilia, B. et al. Information Quality Discussions in Misplaced Pages. University of Illinois U-C.

Spoken Misplaced Pages

This page is within the scope of WikiProject Spoken Misplaced Pages, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles that are spoken on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Spoken WikipediaWikipedia:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaTemplate:WikiProject Spoken WikipediaSpoken Misplaced Pages

Archives

Index 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40 41, 42, 43, 44, 45, 46, 47, 48, 49, 50 51, 52, 53, 54, 55, 56, 57, 58, 59, 60 61, 62, 63, 64

Rewrite 2004-2005: Draft • Talk "Primary v. secondary sources" subpages "Change needed": Proposal • Talk "Various examples": Examples • Talk "Transclusion example": Example • Talk List all subpages

This page has archives. Sections older than 30 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 2 sections are present.

• WT:OR
• WT:NOR

Proposal to add a note to tertiary sources section

The section on tertiary sources currently reads as follows: "Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source. Many introductory undergraduate-level textbooks are regarded as tertiary sources because they sum up multiple secondary sources." I think that this excerpt may cause confusion to new editors because they may assume that since Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source, then they can cite one Misplaced Pages article as a source for a contribution to a second Misplaced Pages article. To prevent this confusion, I propose the following addition (emphasis added in bold, just for ease of reading here on the Talk page):"Tertiary sources are publications such as encyclopedias and other compendia that summarize primary and secondary sources. Misplaced Pages is a tertiary source.(Note that one Misplaced Pages article cannot be cited as a source for a contribution to another Misplaced Pages article) Many introductory undergraduate-level textbooks are regarded as tertiary sources because they sum up multiple secondary sources." OnBeyondZebrax • TALK 20:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Except that there are a few situations where we can cite one Misplaced Pages article in another - specifically in articles where Misplaced Pages itself is the article topic. Of course (just to confuse things) in such articles the cited Misplaced Pages article would be considered a Primary source for the information, not a Tertiary source. Yet another example of how the definitions are flawed. Blueboar (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

It already has footnote , which says essentially the same thing: "While it is a tertiary source, Misplaced Pages is not considered a reliable source for Misplaced Pages articles." – Margin1522 (talk) 09:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, doesn't seem to be a flaw in the definitions. WP writing about WP is an entity writing about itself. That's always a primary source, no matter what it is. If the New York Times (which mostly consists, aside from primary op-eds and movie/book reviews, of most secondary source material) publishes an overview of it's own history, that's a primary source, period. That is, the "primaryness" trumps the "teriariness" or "secondariness" of whatever the source might be otherwise. This holds generally for primary sources, not just autobiographical ones. For example, Geoffrey of Monmouth's Historia Regum Britanniae was essentially a secondary source when it was written, synthesizing Gildas, Bede, Nennius, etc., but it's so old (i.e., to our our eyes it is so close to the events on which it reports) that it's become a primary source, so we can't cite it as a secondary one even for points where it's really, really clear that it's a synthesis of previous work (the very nature of how to do that kind of work has changed since Geoffrey's time). There's no reason for confusion about these matters if one remembers that reliability, verifiability, and avoidance of original research are the goals: If something about a source introduces doubt about it, go with the doubt, don't try to hide the doubt.

Anyway, If it were seen as necessary to clarify these points, OnBeyondZebrax's note would could be merged with footnote 8, and Blueboar's point, inline in the article or in a revised footnote, as something like: "Note that Misplaced Pages (and reuses of Misplaced Pages content) cannot be cited as such a tertiary source in our own articles, though article content about Misplaced Pages itself may cite a Misplaced Pages article, policy page, or other material as a primary source about the project."  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  21:36, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

If uncited information in one article is supported by citations in another article that is wikilinked from the first, verifiability is satisfied. It would be better to have citations in both articles, but WP:PRESERVE and WP:NORUSH would apply. Rhoark (talk) 13:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Re: "If uncited information in one article is supported by citations in another article that is wikilinked from the first, verifiability is satisfied." Actually no, it's not... I don't remember if it written down anywhere, but the "it's cited at the linked article" issue has been discussed many times before (I know it has been discussed in the context of WP:SAL) and there is strong consensus that a citation in one article does not satisfy WP:V in another article... citation in both articles is required. This is not an onerous requirement... simply copy the citation from one article and paste it into the other. Blueboar (talk) 14:13, 5 September 2015 (UTC)

"In Misplaced Pages, verifiability means that anyone using the encyclopedia can check that the information comes from a reliable source." At the most fundamental level that does not mean a citation on the same page, or necessarily any page at all. However, material that is "challenged or likely to be challenged" needs an inline citation, presumably on the same page. However in the case that its on a linked page, I reiterate WP:NORUSH and WP:COMMONSENSE for good measure. Rhoark (talk) 01:35, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wrong rules about primary vs. secondary sources

This is all wrong. You should not use UNREVIEWED primary AND secondary sources. It remains a mistery to me why you want to keep reviewed primary sources out of Misplaced Pages.

In fact, reviewed primary sources are much, much more reliable than any secondary source. Today, everybody can publish a book and write everything in it. Your "rules" really don't make sense and aren't scientific at all - rather ideological (...or economical...).

As such you should mention the real truth:

Do not analyze, evaluate, interpret, or synthesize material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so. Do not base an entire article on primary sources, and be cautious about basing large passages on them. Do not add unsourced material from your personal experience, because that would make Misplaced Pages a primary source of that material. And do not think on your own, be arrogant and unscientific just repeating what some other guy wrote and especially pharmaceutical companies tell you to do. And they're basically telling you this: "Don't use primary sources aka objective and independent research on Misplaced Pages." I only answer: "Nice try!" --81.6.59.42 (talk) 20:19, 14 September 2015 (UTC)

Where did you get the idea that primary sources are necessarily objective or independent? And while anyone can write a book, anyone can also publish a primary research paper in a bottom-feeding journal and get the "peer reviewed" star attached to it. Problems of reliability are why we restrict sourcing to publishers with reputations for fact checking and accuracy. Restricting controversial claims to secondary sources is largely to handle issues of significance. You can find otherwise-reliable primary sources for essentially every viewpoint - not all of them need to be mentioned. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:21, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Also where did you get the idea that we keep primary sources out of wikipedia? We do use them, with caution. The reasons are explained in great detail in our guidelines. Staszek Lem (talk) 02:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Come on boys, don't be rhetorical, there are many people on Misplaced Pages argumenting to remove any primary ressources "according to the guidelines", and also this guideline is basically suggesting it. One example can be read here (on the bottom): https://en.wikipedia.org/Talk:Pyrroloquinoline_quinone#Use_medical_reviews (it's about a neglected vitamin, proves are here: https://books.google.ch/books?id=FoDtCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA161). 

I am also not arguing about the quality of peer reviewed primary studies versus not-at-all reviewed secondary sources...it's too obvious that the latter is of much less quality. It doesn't even matter who wrote the secondary source, because nowadays even University professors have ties to the pharmaceutical industry which are sponsoring some of their labs or projects. In fact, only the quality of a study and its reproducibility is important, only this is real, empirical science.

Finally, please no personal discussion about me and rhetorical questions like "where do I get these ideas from?", because it's not about me but rather about you and the Misplaced Pages. But again: "Nice try..." --81.6.59.42 (talk) 08:10, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

Who said we accept unreviewed secondary sources? Someguy1221 (talk) 08:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

For the record, that article you link to is god-awful - almost entirely based on primary research papers. It should be gutted and replaced with something that reflects the medical consensus, not a hodgepodge of preliminary studies. Someguy1221 (talk) 08:36, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

No, the Wiki article isn't "god-awful" but good science. And what about the Google-book link I gave you? Even with mouse and rat experiments and fotos for the blinders like you, Someguy1221. Just empirics, you know...furthermore you didn't even mention WHY this article should be "so bad" except that it is "only primary sourced" (for the record: Above you guys were asking me the question WHO is neglecting primary research and now YOU are doing all the same), but that's typical for unscientifical rhetoricians (anyway: Who are you working for? Since you were incorrectly using the term "preliminary research", it's probably a multi-billion dollar pharmaceutical company, right?). But if you wanted a secondary source about the topic (there are hundreds): https://books.google.ch/books?id=Whu_zOWPaTQC&pg=PA415&lpg=PA415&dq=pqq+%22vitamin+q%22

To answer your question: Because there ARE no reviewed secondary sources, and that's exactly the reason why I criticized these guidelines here as wrong and unscientific (the only exceptions are tertiary sources, but again: Any random guy can write a "tertiary" book!). You don't really know how medical publishers and scientifical magazins work and review empirical primary research, do you? And beside this: Why don't you do your own studies to PROVE that PQQ is no vitamin instead of wrongly judging basic science and useful scientific research??

The truth is: Although produced by intestinal flora, biotin and vitamin K are both considered vitamins, and as such also PQQ is a vitamin. There are no doubts about it, just people like you neglecting scientifical research and fundamental facts. So for the third time: "Nice try!" --81.6.59.42 (talk) 09:35, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand why you keep saying "nice try". You don't seem to understand how review work is generated. Review articles are indeed subject to peer review. And once again, we do not accept a source simply because it is secondary. You may wish to read our guideline on reliable sources. We know full well that anyone can write a book. That's why we only accept content from authors or publishers with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. You will not find an experienced editor on Misplaced Pages saying that something is a reliable source simply because it is secondary. Finally, you seem to deeply misunderstand the purpose of an encyclopedia. An encyclopedia is a tertiary source. It functions to share with readers the significant viewpoints on a topic as presented in reliable, secondary sources. It's function is most certainly not to mine the primary literature for what the editors personally feel is "good science". If you want to write a good secondary review of PQQ research, you'll have to do it somewhere other than Misplaced Pages. Ultimately, your beef seems to be with how Misplaced Pages works and why it exists, not this particular guideline, which isn't even a sensible place for your complaints anyway - the Original Research policy is to prevent Misplaced Pages itself from being the publisher of primary research content, not a restriction on what sources we can cite. Someguy1221 (talk) 10:15, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I still don't understand how people could think primary sources are never allowed. The policy explicitly states that we may use primary sources, as long as we do so with caution. The trick is to use primary sources appropriately. If a reliable primary source states something important... something that should be mentioned in an article... we can mention it. However, we should do so with in text attribution. This hedges the statement, and lets the reader know that any interpretation, analysis, conclusions or claims are the opinion of the author of the source, and not necessarily widely accepted fact. (Or to put it another way - we can report the fact that source X says "Y"... but Y itself is presented as opinion and not as fact). Blueboar (talk) 13:12, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

"People" think this simply because some Misplaced Pages editors are argumenting that way, and these guidelines here are also basically saying it (please consider reading what I've written at the beginning of this thread). However, if it's wrong to argument that way, then please change these guidelines here and start forbidding the rhetorical argumentating tricks on Misplaced Pages by some editors, immediately. Before this, I have to look at your answer as just rhetorical, too. --81.6.59.42 (talk) 13:39, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I think that actually you - Someguy1221 - don't understand how reviews work and how magazines review articles before publishing it: In fact, reviewed "primary" sources are always some kind of secondary sources because of the intense review they were going through. On the contrary, this isn't happening with secondary sources, they are reviewed - in this case - only by Misplaced Pages editors, who I mostly don't consider to be capable of doing correct scientific work (except if an editor has an University degree in the field he's active on Misplaced Pages). Furthermore, your answer clearly shows me that you didn't either read or understand what I wrote above. You're just blinding out all my scientific arguments and why these Misplaced Pages guidelines are wrong and unscientific. So again: Any scientific magazine certainly does better work than Misplaced Pages in reviewing "primary" research, only the Misplaced Pages editors themselves obviously think that they can do it better, unfortunately relying only on mostly unreviewed secondary sources. In the end we're ending up with rhetorical philosophy but not empirical science - the pure destruction of science, if you will.

There are three stages of scientific discoveries: Unreviewed (published), Reviewed (published) and Reproduced. There might be a fourth one, which is Patented, but patents often aren't reviewed very well at all. Beside these stages, there are four evolutionary stages of discoveries: Ignored, Disputed, Accepted and Truncated. For instance, the history of quanta mechanics is a nice example of the first three stages, and if the QM theories would turn out to be correct, it would never be truncated. Now, PQQ is in stage 2 for about 20 years or so. This is interesting, because it shows us that modern science stalls and is not even able to integrate a newly discovered vitamin. It looks as if today there are too much unimportant informations cycling around and being teached, and the mass media has its unfaithful responsabilities, too (I personally would forbid TV by law for children under 14...because it destroys the brain of childs).

But back to the Misplaced Pages: I have to disagree with you what the Misplaced Pages is: It's not just an encyclopedia as e.g. Brockhaus, but an open online-encyclopedia, where "online" stands for "more than just an encyclopedia". As such, it could be used to transfer real scientific knowledge (aka "primary sources") and not just viewpoints of people (aka "secondary/tertiary sources"). By forbidding primary sources you're basically truncating the hole idea of a free and open internet information exchange platform. And as such you're simply not using all the possibilities and advantages the internet could provide for scientific researchers.

Science, it could be used to solve all our problems. But instead of that, we're using it to create more and more problems (of which I'm not going into details here). I know that there are a group of psychopaths behind most of it. But we could use science even to produce pills for these people, containing compounds and neurotransmitters which they're lacking, or enzymes activating their brains aso., to heal them and make them healthy humans again. Though, the problem is that psychopaths have not only a lack of emotions and empathy, but also a lack of learning and understanding (they just memorize everything, even have very good memories giving them some advantages in - mostly memory-oriented - school tests, but are incapable of being creative in most cases, as such totally relying on the creativity of others and parasiting them, including stealing ideas aso.). And that's the main source of all problems in our world: People who don't ask themselves the questions which they should ask themselves: "What am I doing, really? Why am I doing this? What could I do to improve myself? Why do I always give other people the blame instead of myself? Maybe it's just me who is all wrong and doing the wrong things? Maybe I should invest my time and efforts into improving myself and this world instead of destroying it? Maybe there are normal humans out there who would like to help me and my condition, instead of blaming me and holding me responsible for the bad things I'm doing? Maybe there are scientists who would like to develop pills against psychopathy and I should invest money into their efforts, for that they can produce substances and pills that help me and improve my insane condition?"

However, even as a normal person it takes a long, long time of training and thinking to reach a point where you can ask yourself such questions. I'm not even saying that if I would be a psychopath, that I would be a better person than other psychopaths. Because I can understand now how difficult it is to overcome certain diseases - of body and mind - and how difficult it is to overcome the hatred of other, normal and feeling people. So, I'm just saying: "Use your time and money for the advantage of yourself AND other people, not for the disadvantage." Anything else is just short-sighted, stupid and pure (self-)destruction. --81.6.59.42 (talk) 13:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

• Sigh... I suspect that this may be yet another case of confusion caused by the fact that different academic disciplines use the term "Primary source" in different ways... It is important to understand that this policy was primarily written by editors familiar with the terminology as used in the Humanities, and not by editors familiar with the terminology as used in the Sciences. In the Humanities, the type of source under discussion (peer reviewed journal articles) are not considered Primary sources at all... they are by definition secondary sources.

To understand the intent of this policy, you have to understand which definition is being used. Blueboar (talk) 15:43, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It's true, there is a misunderstanding. I'll carefully re-read the guidelines again but as a first impression I must say that primary sources as a concept is not entirely clear here. For me primary source is the first (for Misplaced Pages, purpose, published) work that stated something. 😊 But this is not the case here if I'm not mistaken? I come from linguistics, and this is the meaning we intend for "primary source". I think what is meant here is "primary data" in general scientific terminology, am I wrong? --SynConlanger (talk) 21:00, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

It's unclear. Certain things are certainly primary sources, such as experimental data, historical documents, legal proceedings, statutes, legislative transcripts, etc. Other things are almost certainly secondary sources, such as literature reviews and meta-analyses. It can be less clear if a publication analyzes primary sources, but makes completely novel claims that appear nowhere else. Sources may certainly be a bit of both: a scientific paper, which I would normally refer to as a primary source, typically contains both experimental data as well as analysis of that data, and a brief introduction to the subject citing other primary and secondary sources. So it certainly has aspects of both a primary and a secondary source. A source can even be primary in some contexts and secondary in others - if we have an article about a book, for example, then that book would be treated as a primary source on its own article, no matter what the book would be treated as elsewhere. And finally, primary/secondary/tertiary aside, we are always left with the question of significance. If a viewpoint appears in precisely one secondary source, it may be deemed insignificant and left out of Misplaced Pages, much the same as if it had only appeared in primary sources, regardless of its verifiability. Someguy1221 (talk) 22:05, 15 September 2015 (UTC)

In the field of history, an old manuscript would be considered Primary (the manuscript is the historical equivalent of raw data in the sciences)... a published journal article that analyzes and interprets that manuscript and states conclusions about it would be considered Secondary (even if the conclusions are novel). When you understand that distinction, I think the policy is much clearer. Blueboar (talk) 00:42, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Right, the definition is slightly distinct in my own field of Biology (see ). The distinction may be caused by the fact that the people who write the article analyzing the primary data are the ones generating the primary data in the first place. But our IP friend is speaking in the context of a medical article to begin with. Someguy1221 (talk) 01:19, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

So if the IP cited primary sources in the science sense that give raw data and analyse them, and the analysis given in the Misplaced Pages article is the one from the articles, that should be ok, right? --SynConlanger (talk) 09:20, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Correct... as far as WP:NOR is concerned. Our sources can engage in original research, analyze data, and form novel conclusions (in fact, we rely on them to do so)... NOR says that we (Misplaced Pages's editors) can not. In other words... We can not analyse the data for ourselves... but if an analysis or conclusion is contained within a source, it is not Original Research for us to mention that analysis in an article... as it did not originate on Misplaced Pages.

That said, remember that passing WP:NOR is not the be-all-and-end-all of inclusion... The information also has to pass all of our other policies and guidelines... If an analysis is published in a journal with a poor reputation, we might reject it on reliability grounds. And if the analysis of data contained in a source is too novel (and challenges accepted wisdom) it may be considered fringe (in which case, mentioning it at all would give it UNUDE weight). And finally... novel conclusions (even those published in reliable journals) are best treated as opinion, and not accepted fact... and opinion should always be attributed. Blueboar (talk) 12:28, 16 September 2015 (UTC)

Not only can we not "engage in original research, analyze data, and form novel conclusions", we cannot line up a bunch of research papers to imply a conclusion that is not explicit in any one of the sources. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 17:40, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

I disagree with the "No original research" policy

I doubt that I'll convince anyone, but I think this policy impoverishes Misplaced Pages, rather than making it better and more reliable. It leads to ridiculous situations in which, for example, the author of a book cannot say what is in his or her own book; some third party has to say it.

Original research is anything but unverifiable. If I wrote, based on my own research, "combining compound A with compound B at a temperature of X degrees produces resulting compound C", that is something someone could definitely verify. Or if I read the correspondence of some person and wrote "X frequently discusses Y in his/her correspondence", and said what correspondence I read and where I read it, that is also verifiable. It's not the same as looking it up in a published article, but it's still verifiable.

There is no doubt the fear that if this policy were changed Wikpedia would be inundated with garbage. I don't know what the best solution would be, but I want to state my dissatisfaction with the current policy. deisenbe (talk) 04:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

This is not something special to Misplaced Pages, that is just how encyclopedias work. We are a tertiary source. HighInBC 04:17, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

That's not true at all. Encyclopedia articles are written by experts and frequently contain their own research, or their own perspective. Then there is the real question if whether Misplaced Pages is in fact still an encyclopedia, or should conform to practices of other encyclopedias, or whether it should be a tertiary source and nothing more. deisenbe (talk) 04:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Besides that discussion, original research should be of sufficient quality. Misplaced Pages has no quality system in place to review original research at anything close to the level expertise that would be required, nor have experts the authority to remove substandard original research against majority opinion. The generally accepted and enforced original research policy guarantees at least some quality. Unless we are willing to identify experts (and who would that be? Requiring at least a PhD on topic, or even a facultry position, and how would we get sufficient of those) and give those extra powers (and how would that look like). Without such quality system in place we basically open ourselves up for fringe theories and outright nonsense if we allow original research. Therefore we should accept that the current system is sub-optimal but that the solution would be worse than the problem.

Your complaint that Misplaced Pages has been taken up by others, who have created alternatives like Scholarpedia or Citizendium, both of which only host a few thousand articles and are struggling to keep editorship active. Arnoutf (talk) 07:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

@Deisenbe: I agree with you that, contrary to the view expressed by HighInBC, traditional encyclopedias do frequently contain expert views that would here be called "original research". However, this isn't a traditional encyclopedia. The key point is that anyone can edit Misplaced Pages, with the result that expertise in the topic concerned is frequently (in some areas almost always) lacking. Arnoutf is right: the present policy is the best we can do given Misplaced Pages's structure.

However, it is important that the policy is applied sensibly. I wish that WP:NOTOR were also policy, an not just an essay. Peter coxhead (talk) 08:16, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I stand corrected. HighInBC 14:26, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the support and for the reference to WP:NOTOR, which I was unaware of. As a practical matter, WP is chockablock full of OR, if you get off the heavily scrutinized articles. And I want to go on record as saying that within those limited areas in which I have personal expertise, I see the policy doing a lot of harm, and much less good. And I'm not talking about things I've written myself. deisenbe (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I do see the problem. Even in heavily scrutinized articles the OR-pushers who manage to find allies are often happier to edit-war than concede the point; while on the other hand important text edits or paraphrases are frequently butchered incorrectly invoking the OR rules. Nevertheless, imperfect as Misplaced Pages is, I still think that allowing original research in would make the project worse rather than better. Arnoutf (talk) 11:40, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Deisenbe, WP:Original research does not simply mean "unsourced." See Misplaced Pages talk:Verifiability/Archive 63#How wide is the "original research" exception for articles on fictional works?, which is very clear about that. So if you wrote, based on your own research, "combining compound A with compound B at a temperature of X degrees produces resulting compound C", and that is supported by a WP:Reliable source somewhere out there, even if not on Misplaced Pages, that is not WP:Original research. The WP:Original research policy has a note/reference right after the word exist in its introduction; that note/reference states, "By 'exists', the community means that the reliable source must have been published and still exist—somewhere in the world, in any language, whether or not it is reachable online—even if no source is currently named in the article. Articles that currently name zero references of any type may be fully compliant with this policy—so long as there is a reasonable expectation that every bit of material is supported by a published, reliable source."

Furthermore, you already addressed your disagreement with the WP:Original research policy earlier this year, and got your answers then; see Misplaced Pages talk:No original research/Archive 60#No OR is a bad policy, in my view.. In fact, that was the last time I commented at this policy talk page...until now. Flyer22 (talk) 20:21, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Flyer22: Your memory is much better than mine. Congratulations! As it is a WP principle to "assume the best", I'm going to assume that you're not intending to publicly embarrass and chastise me yet again.

You don't need to restate the policy to me. I know what the policy is, though you no doubt know its details much better than I. My point was that I disagree with the policy. But I'm just one lowly editor. deisenbe (talk) 23:20, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Deisenbe, pointing out Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines to you and expecting you to follow them, especially after you've been repeatedly pointed to them either on your talk page or elsewhere on Misplaced Pages, and getting annoyed/frustrated when you repeatedly ignore/disregard them, has never been about trying to embarrass you. I understand that you feel that I've been condescending to you, but we've already been over that on my talk page; I see no need to rehash it. Flyer22 (talk) 04:27, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Your disagreement is duly noted, but since you are suggesting nothing newer and better, I don't see the point in this discussion beyond personal blogging. Staszek Lem (talk) 17:12, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree, let's either talk relevantly about content and not contributors or stop this. The only thing I learned is, that although I had forgotten the previous discussion flagged up by Flyer22, my comments there are remarkedly similar to the ones here. So I do have a consistent opinion on this :-) Arnoutf (talk) 17:18, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree 100% with the original comment at the top above and have written the following on a talk page:

"I think that this issue highlights one of the problems of Misplaced Pages. There is (thus far) an almost robotic adherence to the policy of referencing published resources. However, the publication of statements in magazine or book form does not in itself constitute evidence of reliability or accuracy. Far from it !

Ultimately the most reliable sources of information for matters of a historical nature are original, contemporary documents. There is no real substitute for these. Even then, there are times when, for political or selfish reasons, individuals may lie, but in this case, the context of the document and the date is evidence enough of reliability.

I think, indeed I hope that it will in time be recognised that original research, backed up (as in this case) by references that can easily be checked, is not only acceptable, but extremely valuable in improving the reputation of Misplaced Pages as an information resource.

I am very disappointed in general with Wikipedians and I find posting on Misplaced Pages - despite the fact that it is supposedly a place where any interested parties are free to edit articles - an extremely frustrating and generally very depressing experience."

I emphasise strongly again:

"the publication of statements in magazine or book form does not in itself constitute evidence of reliability or accuracy"

The quality and reliability of published material is extremely variable. It depends on many factors. The age of the material for one. Can a book first published in 1700 be a reliable source just because it is printed? And who should be the arbiter of whether it is a reliable source?

Are magazine articles a reliable source of information? Again, who should be the judge of that?

In matters of a historical nature, original research, especially research carried out by private individuals can be of great value. But all the same it must be referenced clearly. For example, a particular piece of research may highlight a previously unknown fact about a historical figure. (Probably a minor historical figure). If that research can be verified by a clear reference to a document that is held in a public place (such as an archive or library) and can easily be either read or digitally copied for verification by anyone then it is just as acceptable as a published source! Indeed it may be more so.

A published source is reliable - why? A published source may be very old. It may have been published privately. The appearance of a piece of research in book form does not make it reliable. There are not bunches of Misplaced Pages Editors installed in publishing houses making sure everything is done properly! There seems to be an assumption that editors in publishing houses are paragons of virtue. Custodians of absolute truth and accuracy. Well, are they? I doubt it!

I found a recent case of where the opinion (a controversial opinion) of an individual who had written an article in a magazine was being used in a Misplaced Pages article. That is not acceptable. Opinion is not fact. Its was publication in a magazine does not make that statement reliable or truth.

There is much more I could say. I hope that my comments will at least be read and noted. John2o2o2o (talk) 09:28, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

@John2o2o2o: you are actually making two points, I think.

1. Material which has been published but is wrong should not be included. On this we can agree entirely. You can challenge an unreliable source, based on reliable sources, and remove such material (or include text to the effect that although X has been claimed to be true, it is not).
2. It should be possible to include material based on original research, provided this is sourced. I'm not sure how you are interpreting "original research". If you mean by "research" searching though sources to find factual information, like someone's date of birth, which can then be attributed to a source, then there's usually no problem in adding it to an article. But this isn't really "research". The prohibition on "original research" is directed at original analysis, interpretation, evaluation, and the like. It's this that is rightly prohibited in Misplaced Pages, because there's no control on the expertise of the editor carrying out the analysis, interpretation, evaluation, etc.

Peter coxhead (talk) 12:39, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

This page appears blank on my browser

What is going on?--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:20, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I had pages like that at the same time as you; it's gone now – a server bug?? Peter coxhead (talk) 18:28, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, gone now -- maybe it was a server bug. I had been considering reverting an edit.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 18:30, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC announce: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

RfC announce: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

There is a current RfC that concerns which claims should be sourced under WP:RS and which claims should be sourced under WP:MEDRS. This has the potential to affect sourcing rules for a large number of articles, so please help us to arrive at a clear consensus on this issue.

RfC:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RfC: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

Related:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Does MEDRS apply to Epidemiology?
• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Clarifying "biomedical"
• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RS/N
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Domestic Violence article

--Guy Macon (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2015 (UTC)