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Primary sources for BLPs via OTRS

Hi, guys.

Of potential interest here, given that living people are often the one who reach out to OTRS, is a new RFC on whether OTRS should be permitted to receive primary sources for content changes to articles. Please see WP:VPP#RfC - should we allow primary sources sent in to OTRS and participate there if you have input on this question. --Moonriddengirl 15:59, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Preparing two proposals that would change transgender policy

A recent proposal at the Village Pump: Policy about how to refer to Caitlyn Jenner in an article about the 1976 Olympics ended with the recommendation 1) that MOS:IDENTITY's policy on transgender individuals be revisited and 2) that the issue of how to refer to transgender individuals who are mentioned in passing in articles of which they are not the principal subject be resolved. We want help working out the wording before we post them to WP:VPP.

We are preparing two separate proposals for the Village Pump, one about whether the main MOS:IDENTITY should be kept or changed, and one about drafting a new rule for transgender individuals who are mentioned in passing. Here's where we could use a little help: We don't want this to confuse anyone or to have too many moving parts, and we don't want to ask the community "Do you want bananas or apples?" if half of them have been yelling "Oranges! Oranges!" for years. You guys have probably worked on more articles about transgender subjects than the MOS regulars have, so you probably know what issues actually come up and what just looks like it would.

For Proposal 1, are the two options that we're offering actually what the community wants? Are they phrased well? Are they easy to understand? Did we leave anything out? Could we trim anything back?

For Proposal 2, are the four/five options that we're offering actually things that people say they want? Should any of them be discarded? Are they easy to understand? Are the examples easy to understand? Did we leave anything out? Could we trim anything back?

Your contribution is welcome. Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:48, 8 October 2015 (UTC)

A Village Pump thread has opened (link) to determine how the Manual of Style should guide editors to refer to transgender people in articles about themselves. Concurrently, a thread has opened (link) to determine how to guide editors to refer to transgender people when they are mentioned in passing in other articles. Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:50, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

Correct process for actioning subject request for removal of a BLP?

Can someone please remind me of the correct process for how to remove a BLP when the subject requests it. Does there have to be anything through OTRS? Is it simpler if it's just taking out a few paragraphs from a broader article?

How does this apply to corporations too? Specifically schools. Does that vary for US or UK bodies?

Thanks Andy Dingley (talk) 09:06, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Deletion of the article has to go through AfD; the outcome might be affected by the subject's wishes (as communicated via OTRS), but it might not. Removing paragraphs at the request of a subject would be very odd; what matters is whether the text in question adheres to the usual set of policies. If a COI-editor wants to participate in discussion along those lines, fine -- but a simple request from the subject is unlikely to sway things. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 09:14, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

It's just a normal WP:AFD. See WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE. Many editors are happy to vote delete if the subject of an article is only marginally notable, and has requested deletion. Others aren't. I would post at WP:BLPN for assistance in removing trivia or undue negativity from a BLP. Johnuniq (talk) 09:27, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

As above. If there is no consensus at AFD it would usually get deleted in line with the BLP's wishes. Corporations and schools are not a BLP issue (unless they are made up of a very small group of identifiable people). You might not get a school deleted at AFD due to the 'All schools are notable!' crowd, regardless of lack of notability. Corporations if you can demonstrate not-notable are much more likely to be deleted due to the anti-corp bias amongst wikipedia editors. Removing mention of a living person from another article would be highly context dependant and could be more difficult than removing a BLP itself. EG: It looks like Kim Davis's BLP will go due to BLP1E, however there is no way she would be removed from an article around the controversy itself due to its notability and her part in it. If you can link to the specific situation you want advice on, it would be easier to give a more concrete answer. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:45, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but what if it's a uncomplimentary BLP and the subject just wants it gone as too embarrassing? What's the process for doing this because of their request? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:21, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

There isn't a process of that sort. Deletion happens via AfD (or prod, or a speedy if it meets the criteria). If it's "uncomplimentary" to the point of being an attack page, then fine -- a speedy nomination should take care of it. But otherwise we're not going to delete something just because the subject wants it gone. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:25, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

What Nomoskedasticity said. Again it would depend on the person. Some people have no positive things that can be said about them and are very notable. 'Attack Page' generally requires that the negative material be unsourced to qualify (as an attack page). What is the page you are thinking of? Then we could be more specific as to if it needs speedy or AFD Only in death does duty end (talk) 15:31, 9 October 2015 (UTC)

re BLPPRIMARY

re: Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth,

IMO these rules require some rationale added to this paragraph, because they look puzzling at the first glance. What's wrong with citing the D.O.B. from a public record? This does not involve any interpretation from the side of a wikipedian. Staszek Lem (talk) 19:53, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Well it does. Our article says John Smith, an athlete from Texas, was aged 25 in 2015. A public record says there is John Smith born in Texas in 1990. But there's also a John Smith born in Texas in 1989. Which is the correct one? No original research. GiantSnowman 11:14, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I agree that more rationale, as well as more qualification, would be useful. Does this mean that court records can never be used as sources? If someone is arrested for a criminal offense and later pleads guilty, what is the problem with using the court record as a source for the event? Uranographer (talk) 12:02, 28 October 2015 (UTC)

Demi Lovato

Demi Lovato has way too many categories listed, I removed a few. Someone who knows the guidelines better may want to lay down the law on the talk page. Darx9url (talk) 07:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

RfC announce: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

RfC announce: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

There is a current RfC that concerns which claims should be sourced under WP:RS and which claims should be sourced under WP:MEDRS. This has the potential to affect sourcing rules for a large number of articles, so please help us to arrive at a clear consensus on this issue.

RfC:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RfC: What claims are governed by WP:MEDRS?

Related:

• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Does MEDRS apply to Epidemiology?
• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#Clarifying "biomedical"
• Misplaced Pages talk:Identifying reliable sources (medicine)#RS/N
• Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Domestic Violence article

--Guy Macon (talk) 21:54, 31 October 2015 (UTC)