Misplaced Pages

1. Should we change the current descriptive title to another descriptive title, by simply changing "2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict to "2006 Israel-Lebanon war" or something else with a lowercase "war"? It seems that many think so, because they (wrongly, in my opinion) think that the word "conflict" somehow is a weasel word that diminishes the gravity of the situation. The word "conflict" doesn't measure the gravity of a conflict. It can be used to cover anything from a minor disagreement between two persons to a world war. However, almost any other word for a conflict, including "crisis", contains a measure. You can't very well call a minor disagreement a "crisis", nor can you call a world war a "crisis". Similarly, you can't call a full-blown war a "disagreement" or call a minor disagreement "war". Consequently, "conflict" is the ideal NPOV word, while "war" definitely is POV, as it carries a measure. There is nothing wrong with the current article name, and it doesn't attempt to diminish the gravity of the situation in any way. Stating that "conflict" is a weasel word just shows that some people don't know their English well enough.
2. Should we change the current descriptive title and instead give the conflict a proper name, by changing "2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict to "2006 Israel-Lebanon War" or something else with an uppercase "War"? Definitely not! If we were to call this conflict "Something War" at this stage, we would be the first in the world to give the conflict a name. Not only would that be against the Misplaced Pages policy, which states that we should use established names for military conflicts, but as we are at the top of the Google hit list, such a decision would carry a great responsibility, as we would actively influence the perception of what this conflict should be called. That's not our job. Misplaced Pages is supposed to be an encyclopaedia, not a policy institute or a bloody "think tank".

What's important, when considering the name of this article, is what banners the TV news programmes and the newspapers are currently sticking on the material about the conflict, as their banners is the closest equivalent to a Misplaced Pages article name covering a developing story. Their headlines change by the hour, while their banners (if they have any) are static identifiers of which news category the articles or news pieces belong to. CNN, BBC and Sky News are all still using a banner saying "Middle East Crisis" when covering the Lebanese conflict, while Fox News have opted for "MidEast Turmoil". As for newspapers, both The Times and The Independent have banners saying "Middle East Crisis". Unfortunately I don't have access to any other major English-language newspapers right now, but I'm pretty sure hardly anyone have the word "war" in their banners yet. I agree with Cerejota, that when all the reliable sources, and all the leaders of the combatants are calling it war, then we should do so as well. But that is not yet the case. Not even Siniora, who has better reason than anyone else to call it war, has yet done so. This may change at any moment, however, following the hawks' killing of the doves in the Israeli cabinet this afternoon (well, actually yesterday afternoon, I just realised). So those who want to call it war may very soon have my support - but probably only for a new descriptive title. Good night. Thomas Blomberg 03:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move V: 2006 Israel-Lebanon Sectarian Violence

since nobody can get the name right, I am now proposing using the new dod terminology to classify the current events. --Stephenzhu 16:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

How is that title more accurate than the 2006 Israel-Lebanon Conflict?

Israel is at war with Lebanon, whose government is comprised of multiple religious sects and denominations.

This isn't a sectarian conflict, like the original Lebanese Civil War.

DOD?

Do you mean the Dept. of Defense?

Ruthfulbarbarity 17:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

FOR EVERYONE THAT THINK IT ISN'T A WAR YOU MUST SEE THIS... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPd-yubPdx4&mode=related&search=

--TheFEARgod 16:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Very good! Thomas Blomberg 13:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Nice. Hopefully not all medias follow CNN. Tazmaniacs 13:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about casualties

Earlier discussions

• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive8#Discussion about Casualties
  • Israeli casualties, Earlier discussions, Displaced Israelis, Other, Civilian vs Military casualities, Regarding hiding the reported number of Lebanese civilians killed, "Report of Attack on Canadians Unconfirmed", possible solution to the "civilians" edit war.
• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive11#Discssion about Casualties
  • Civilian casualties, Warship is not a casualty!, Casualty figures, Lebanese Casualties, Attacks on UNIFIL, Missing from the casualties section, Israeli soldiers killed.
• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive14#Discssion about Casualties
  • Archived info from discussion of lebanese casualty figures, Israeli Casualities, Amal Casualties?, Lebanese Civilian Casualties
• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive15#Discssion about Casualties
  • Lebanese Casualty Figures, lebanese civilian casualties, "treated for shock", Hezbollah casualties and Lebanese casualties:, American casualty.
• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive16#Discssion about Casualties
  • Infobox fatalties, question about hezbollah casualties
• Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive17#Discssion about Casualties
  • Syncing the two tables
  • Displaced persons
  • Israeli casualties during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict
  • Lebanese Civilian Casualties
  • Lebanese Civilian Casualties as of 6 August UTC

• Please do not change these archived discussions. Instead restart discussion on this talk page. Sijo Ripa 11:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Israeli casualties

• There is an official daily-upated governmental source , but it has one mistake. "Since July 12, 39 Israeli civilians and 63 IDF soldiers have been killed." If you DO REALLY COUNT the names of the IDF soldiers, you get 64 instead of 63. I alteady sent a feedback abount this mistake.
• There is another israeli source, but it is on russian . And it also has a problem, 'cause the link is dying every day. Instead of http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/08aug2006/shem.html, tomorow you'll have to look on http://www.newsru.co.il/israel/09aug2006/shem.html, and so on. 89.1.254.24 19:20, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Israeli military equipment losses during 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict

I think we should include another link with the exact number of israeli military equipment losses.By my calculations the Israeli military has suffered since August 09:

HMMWV vehicles:2 destroyed
Merkava tanks:6 destroyed, 6 damaged
Apache helicopter gunships:3 lost
Battleships:1 damaged
Armored bulldozers:1 destroyed

What are your opinions?

what happend to the 6th of august when 12 israeli soldiers where killed and 3-4 sivilians in Haifa ? It's not listed in the article "Just reward"

1 000 killed according to Lebanon

Tewfik, I'm sorry, but if Lebanon claims 1 000 dead including 1/3 children, then the box can't just say 500 dead and bypass that. Tazmaniacs 07:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Strangely Tewfik, you seemed to agree at one point that the range 400-800 had to be given, but the box now is 500, while Lebanon say 1000. Range should be 500-1000. Do not minimize losses from one side or another. Thanks. Best regards, Tazmaniacs 07:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) It doesn't bypass that, but rather gives range of reliable media estimates. I suggest you look at Talk:2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict#Lebanese Civilian Casualties as of 6 August UTC. Not that its completely relevant, but one of the reasons we do this is to prevent repeating a blunder that even PM Siniora made (40 casualties became 1). The news generally say what they can verify, but still preserve the context of the greater numbers. Cheers, Tewfik 07:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

(2nd Edit conflict):I agreed to 400 when it was the case. Whether and how we should include official Lebanese numbers should be discussed above, but we last decided not to include them in light of the lack of distinction of combatants and general lack of clarity surrounding their numbers. Cheers Tewfik 07:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Tewfik, I'm sure you realize why you can't continue saying "we decided". Misplaced Pages:No binding decisions. Who is this "we"? Not everybody. Yes, we should include the Lebanese claim that 1 000 civilians were killed including 1/3 children, it has been reported by Reuters & others news agencies. This is simple respect of reality. Tazmaniacs 07:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not saying "we decided and that's it," but I am saying that what was decided shouldn't be ignored. Take part in the discussion, a case could be made for including the Lebanese position to some degree (though as it stands now, I oppose that =D). However totally replacing the sourced range isn't appropriate. See you there, Tewfik 19:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Israeli/Lebanese casualties

Although the figure for people dead is (more or less) undisputed, we have a slight problem with figuring out the number of wounded/injured people and the severity of those cases. This is partially because "injured" is a grey-zone unlike dead (which is or is not!)

As numbers are running up, I would like to ask: Can we skip the injured, and let people deduce for themselves the numbers of injured from the numbers of dead? MX44 08:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I say "yes". I told it before: I, as Israeli, have no idea how many Israeli injured since the begining of the conflict, not mentiioning how many Lebanese injured. It is a grey-zone indeed, and we should not report the number of injured at all. Flayer 09:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I also agree here. There are big issues with what "injured" means. Lost a limb? Slightly upset by a bang in the distance? Stephen B Streater 09:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I will wait another 24h for other editors to voice their opinions before doing anything "bold."

There is also the "dead" vs "missing" figures giving me a hard time calculating anything reasonably. MX44 09:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

On second thought: The "missing" may or may not be dead/wounded/whatevever, so if I sum up the dead, that will be it! MX44 11:44, 9 August 2006 (UTC) (feeling uneasy, summarising tragedies to statistics)

I think we should just keep dead. Injured can mean anything and missing can lead to duplicating figures. --zero faults 12:00, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that was what intended to say, but to clerify: Agreed! :) MX44 12:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it strange for you to start by claiming that "the figure for people dead is (more or less) undisputed", although Reuters has reported that Lebanese claim 1000 dead (including 1/3 children) but that here some tireless editors decided 500 would be better? Tazmaniacs 14:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, that would be the "lesser" part of undisputed, but the lower numbers always comes with the qualifyer "at least." What can be said is that Lebanese gov now claims 1000+ dead and Israel claims 100+ The BBC reports as of today: More than 1,000 people, most of them civilians, have been killed in the month-old conflict, the Lebanese government has said. More than 100 Israelis, most of them soldiers, have also died. This is also in line with what Reuters reports: The war has cost the lives of at least 1,005 people in Lebanon, mostly civilians, and more than 100 Israelis. NY Times detailed the Israeli figures yesterday to be 36 civilian and 65 miltary, but since then 15 more Israeli soldiers have been killed. MX44 04:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Death Toll

I have to agree with you about the death tolls. We need to do a better job about handling the death tolls. For example, right at the beginning, Where it says cause belli: It states this "Hezbollah cross-border raid and shelling which resulted in the capture of two and killing of three other IDF soldiers" Do you see the error? "killing three other IDF soldiers" It was eight not three. Then under that it gives terrible statistics. Now come on. The deaths grow every day. We need to update this. But because there are hooligans who do stupid crap, we have to have censorship on the pages. So We can't keep it up to date, and that is the other issue.

The other five were killed in "hot-pursuit," but belligerence already existed by then, so I don't think they can be included in its cause. Tewfik 20:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel gave there reasons for the cause of it all, and that is the reason. Zonerocks22:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

RE: Updating death counts

We need to be able to keep up with the death counts. Also fix the beginning where it says cause belli: fix from 3 deaths to 8, to understand what im talking about, scroll up to death counts and read that. --zonerocks 19:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"Estimates" from the tourism minister, etc.

Do we need to include every prominent Israeli's "estimate" of the number of Hezbollah militants that have been/will be killed, when the IDF is releasing solid, confirmed kill numbers? I know of at least three different "estimates" from varying ministers (including the tourism minister, whose was the highest), and various editors keep removing any "estimate" save the tourism minister's (including removing Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz' 300 estimate). If we are going to include "estimates" in the infobox, we need to include them all, or decide to stick with only the confirmed kill numbers the IDF is now releasing. Also, if editors wish to only use a "+" figure ("300+," "500+") to cover all estimates, base estimate used must be the lowest. Thanks, Italiavivi 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion about the structure and general content of the article

Earlier discussions

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive1#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon crisis/Archive2#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive5#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive6#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive7#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
  • Article Size, Suggested Sub Articles, Why is there nothing on the gaza strip?, Hezbollah campaign, Historical Background, Relevance? - small posts about Russian language source, "Free Lebanon" and Robert Fisk, Operation Truthful/True/Fulfilled Promise?
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive9#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
  • Format of infobox (labeling of civilians, soldiers),Relevance?, "not sure as to the relevance.", External Links, Too many links - what stays?, Various sections about evacuation, International reaction, Infobox gives me a headache, Nothing is mentioned about foreign nationals being evacuated,
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive10#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
  • Video of Hezbollah firing missiles, Hezbollah rocket campaign, Criticism of both sides, pre-planning for the war, Hell in a Hand Basket, Discussion about strength of participants, Edits around 1948 and terms, WP:V and WP:RS, Blank references, Names of operations in the preamble?, Splitting up the article, "Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict", Introductory paragraph, Missing from this article, Some thoughts on the civilian section
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive13#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
  • Article is too long, Strike on UN chapter removed, POLL, What part shoul be moved, External links, Aims section, External links International reaction
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive15#Discussion about the structure and general content of the article
  • Casualties table
  • Length
  • Attacks on Civilians

These are archived discussions. Please do not edit them.

The article is too long

I moved some part of article to Targeting of civilian areas in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict, Because the length of this this article was more than 60 Kb.--Accessible 10:14, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This article becomes too long . Please add what you want in the main articles and try to shorten this article. I prefer to strat from "Targeting of civilian areas " and "Historical background " parts.--Accessible 11:03, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Great idea in theory, but you can't just cut the bottom half of the section off - you have to leave behind a summary and keep it balanced. Thats why I reverted your change. I've had another go at removing some stuff, feel free to cut it down some more if you think there's still some excess in there - as you say, we've got to get it down to about 60kb. --Iorek85 10:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I would guess the sources accounts for much of the size. If I just cut and paste the article text to notepad and save it is just 26 kB. Vints 20:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

We've done it! Down to 59kb! Now we just need to keep it there. (And yeah, those references are a biggie.) --Iorek85 00:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

And now it's been completely undone. Almost 80kb. --Iorek85 22:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Not to long to add in some bumpf about resolution 1559 :) Doesnt that belong in the article concerned with the res? 82.29.227.171 00:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I've done a lot of culling - lots of people like to add info, which is great, but not often do they remove it. Down to 66kb, which is still too long, but I can't find anywhere to lose it from. --Iorek85 11:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

General Discussion

Earlier discussions

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive10#Discussion about the talk page

Summary I am GOING THERE!, Front Line Photographs Section - concerns re clear breach of NPOV, edits by banned editor, Citecheck / Tens of thousands of Israelis displaced?, Iran's role isn't mentioned in the reference 185, Just ban the vandals already!, Fork for deletion Someone has vandalized the article again, Opinions on civilian attacks??, Am I the only one concerned with article quality?, User Hellznrg accusation of vandalism, Salvage French, Article becoming a JOKE and a BLOG, Adding Links, Where are the kidnapped soldiers?, New page, Video of the shot up ambulances, Lebanon's PM Praises Hezbollah, By Hezbollah, Disproportionate in what moral universe

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive12#General Discussion

Mediation, Changes in AP story on July 12, Pictoral bias?, Attacks on United Nations personnel, Claims about captured Hezbollah, July 2006 Seattle Jewish Center shooting

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive13#General Discussion

Bad footnote, IAF/IDF alleged attacks on convoys incl. UN convoy, BBC analysis of the effect of the war, Two more Un observers die Sorry, trying to fix intro, Unbalanced info box, Why no pictures of the destruction in Lebanon?, Categorisation, use of IDF leaflet is non Neutral, use of "Muslim Protests Against Israel" image is non Neutral, Breaking News: IDF going to suspend air operations for 48 hours, effective immediately, Added suspension of air operations to main page, Possible War Crimes, Sources, SOME ISRAELI KEEPS.. Anti Israel people/sites, Please help edit related articles, Infobox UN dead, Time to remove "AA -only" tag for Lebanon?, "Precision-guided", An Analysis on the way middle east "works" that is "jews vs muslims"-free., Oil Spill?

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive14#General Discussion
  • Irrelevant facts, moving casualties, Megaphone Software & "the battle for the internet", References broken, If it's not war so what is war, Israeli soliders landing in Baalbeck, NPOV Tag Added, Pictures show clear POV, Asian Cup, OMG PWND!!!, International Law, I Was Thinking, New images every second, Where is the background to the conflict.
• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive15#General Discussion
  • POV terms used for Israel campaign

Why the Israel-Lebanon war?, Herald Sun's "smuggled pictures", The War between the Straits, War or Conflict, Introduction Numbers, Yesha Rabbinical Council: all Lebanese may be killed, Hizbollah offered a cease-fire?, Phosphorus & sub-articles, IDF casualties up to date (not 41), 12 Rhetorical support, Equating Hezbollah and IDF operations in this article, please don't add POV pictures, Can we add this photo?, Image use in this article, Beginning of conflict is June 9th Gaza explosion?, Moved the POW stuff to its article, Repeated Sentences, Good artile, Rabbinical Question, Ayta a Shaab Claim, Hezbollah KIA, other figures, Hadera instaed of Beit-Shean, Some statistics you might find interesting, Criticism of advanced warnings, Wounded soldiers and civilians, What's that? Where did it come from?? Flayer 11:43, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive16#General Discussion

"Hizbullah committing war crimes", To solve the disaster, Hizballah military capability, Escalation, Iranian and Syrian Support What section?, External links, Removal of POW stuff, Paring, Page Deletion, Uh, where is the article?, An Important Source Where is the history, Human Rights Watch claims, National Post as source?, Battlebox., Attack on Tel Aviv -- Escalation? Arab-Israeli Conflict Template, Not sure what to do with this, What to do with WHO?, Osama and Mustafa Muamar, Allegations of using civilians as Human Shields, Claimed Amal and PFLP-GC casualties, Semi-protection not working?

• Talk: 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict/Archive17#General Discussion
  • It is disputed the IDF soldiers were captured in Israel, War Planned a Year Ago
  • Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets
  • Article size
  • Page reverted to out of date version.
  • Depleted Uranium munitions
  • Hezbollah using civilians as human shields
  • Global
  • Proposed template.
  • Casualties infobox, again
  • omg
  • Typo in Reference
  • Iran Supplying Surface-To-Air Missiles To Hezbollah
  • Casualty Country Error
  • Factual accuracy
  • References
  • Dating schema - vote
  • Frivolity
  • Template Update needed
  • Updating the picture on the title
  • Hezbollah using civilians as human shields
  • "Targeting of Civilian Areas" section is completely POV
  • New proposal for the lead
  • Request for Arbitration on WP:EL-Links and Images
  • Re Cluster bombs allegations' section

Please do not modify these archived discussions.

Semi-Protected

The article is semi-protected because of the non-stop removal of pics. -- Szvest 19:12, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Megaphone Software is official Israel Gov policy

"is no evidence that this is official Israeli policy, only action of WUJS" Really? So when Director of 'Hasbara', Amir Gissin, aka Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director promotes it hes working freelance? Check the article on Megaphone software or the email sent out by Gissin . Quotes Gissin as saying: "Please go to www.giyus.org, download the Megaphone, and you will receive daily updates with instant links to important internet polls, problematic articles that require a talk back, etc. We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference. So, please distribute this mail to all Israel's supporters. Do it now. For Israel." Why is this now changed to make it appear like WUJS are the source of megaphone? 82.29.227.171 14:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Your comments while welcome need sources to support them. Since you have not proven it is, other then by your own original research and assumptions, its best to start again with sources stating it is official policy to convey your point. --zero faults 14:56, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Quoting a statement issued by Amir Gissin, Israeli Foreign Ministry’s public relations director promoting the use of the software is "original research"? LOL, im laughing at you. Didnt you read his comments? Looks like the Hasbara Dept of Israeli Foreign Ministry considers Hasbara policy to me. 82.29.227.171 15:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Can I see where it says using this software is their policy. I appreciate your juvenile comments, but please refrain from using them. --zero faults 15:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Even the webpage doesnt call it a policy ... --zero faults 15:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

When the Director of the Hasbara Department announces a drive to get 100,000 people using the software- "We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference", most would assume its policy, the announcement was made in his official capacity, making it policy. If youre looking for other policy statements on Hasbara then check some of the aims as outlined in 2005 82.29.227.171 15:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The announcement was made for the organization if I am reading your source correctly, not directly for the government. Doesnt the other source specifically mention it was not a gov policy, the cyber soldiers one? --zero faults 15:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Israel’s Foreign Ministry must avoid direct involvement with the campaign but is in contact with international Jewish and evangelical Christian groups, distributing internet information packs. " It seems he, or his department, is not the originators of the idea either, he just send emails out telling people about it. The source actually specifically states these points. --zero faults 15:25, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thats from the Times correspondant, not the Director of Hasbara in Israel, Amir Gissin. To repeat: When the Director of the Hasbara Department announces a drive to get 100,000 people using the software- "We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference", most would assume its policy, the announcement was made in his official capacity, making it policy. What the Times have to say about them avoiding "direct involvement" is redundant when the Director of the Hasbara Dept publicly announces it via one of the sites in question. 82.29.227.171 16:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The current formulation stating that the Times reported that Gissin made those comments, and assigning responsibility for the software to WUJS, is the best way to discuss this in an NPOV matter at the moment. Cheers, Tewfik 17:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

most would assume its policy, the announcement was made in his official capacity, making it policy.

— 82.29.227.171

No its just a reasonable assumption. Gissin is Director of Hasbara in Israel, he sends out a communique urging use of the software on 22nd July, (before Times gets a further quote from him on 28 July)-

"We need 100,000 Megaphone users to make a difference.. Do it now. For Israel.", We being who? Him and the WUJS? The Times was reporting that the WUJS students had joined the campaign AFTER Gissen's call to arms on the 22nd. Is Amir Gissin in the WUJS? Nope, he works for the Israeli Government, he signed the call to arms on their behalf, in his official capacity as Director of Hasbara in Israel, and his 'call to arms' is "For Israel". Here is his announcement, note his, not the WUJS's. Note the date- 22nd (before the Times article ). The IDF is spreading propaganda, the WUJS is in alliance with them following their 'call to arms'. Why the coded denial and attempt to make it out to be a WUJS initiative? 82.29.227.171 19:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I have to agree with Tewfik in this matter, hopefully others will chime in however. --zero faults 18:05, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Tewfik, thats what the source say. Now, Hasbara should be mentioned, as this is a widely acknowledged practice that goes back at leasts to the Jewish Authority and Haganah. Thats not OR, bayby. --Cerejota 06:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

1. The Times source article remarks on the WUJS rallying to the initial Hasbara Dept announcement made by Gissin. It is dated 27th July and refers to the period of the last 5 days when WUJS members began downloading and using Megaphone.
2. The Times article was written 5 days after Gissin made the initial announcement here.
3. The Times article does not say the WUJS created megaphone or that they started the campaign.
4. Gissin launched the campaign and policy of gathering support using Megaphone via standwithus.com on the 22nd July as the announcement posted there indicates

Is anyone reading that announcement or what?? Why weasel word the piece on Israeli Government Hasbara Dept. and try to make out the WUJS started it? 82.29.227.171 16:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

beginning of conflict

the original beginning is like this,

According to Haaretz at 9:05 AM local time on 12 July 2006, Hezbollah initiated a rocket and mortar attack on Israeli military positions and on the towns of Even Menahem and Mattat, injuring 5 civilians.

it has a defective citing and also I think using the Haaretz alone cannot be considered npov (it probably just cite idf sources). same can be said of using lebanon newspapers/al manar.

I change it to npov vesion.

--Stephenzhu 16:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

No, Haaretz is not like al-Manar. But nevermind, not Haaretz alone is used, several prominent sources are also mentioned. Al-Jazeerah also calls it cross-border here. --Yms 16:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am only saying it seems that both Israeli/Lebanese sources are suspect as wiki sources. Also, I am aware of prominent sources calling it cross-border but it doesn't mean the notation is not in dispute. -Stephenzhu 16:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

If both Ha'aretz AND Al-Jazeerah call it cross border, I think it is no longer reasonable to consider still in dispute. -- Avi 17:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I am only using a neutral sense here. I am not subscribing either version of the story yet. As I said, if AP and AFP explicitly repudiate their earlier reports and the Lebanon source repudiated it as well, we can consider it not in dispute. Al-Jazeerah doesn't really count since they don't have people witnessing the causing events. --Stephenzhu 18:46, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

They don't need to explicitly repudiate, as they have not repeated the claims. And none of the agencies had people watching the event; as an extreme defining its limit, Al Jazeera is absolutely credible in this instance. Tewfik 18:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You are missing my point. The practice of medias like AP and AFP is that they will post a correction if the original report is wrong. You see that all the time. I am not saying the current Al Jazeera is not credible in general, only saying that they don't have the first person reporting on that event so the specific reporting on the causing event has no weight in this issue. It seems only two sources are relevent here, IDF and Lebanon/Hezballah sources. Everbody else gets their info from them.--Stephenzhu 19:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

12th of July is not the "beginning of conflict." 12th of July is the beginning of the regime in Beirut to have a real world problem (with Hezbollah/Israel.) MX44 07:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Journalists determine what is WP:Verifiable, and us based on their reliability. Those are the principles at play here. Cheers, Tewfik 19:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was Rafik Hariri International Airport bombed?

Hello,

at this point nor the article Rafic Hariri International Airport nor this article provide a reason for bombing that airport. I know that this is a controversial topic but it could be done in an objective way by providing Hezbollah's and Olmert's explanation for instance.

Thanks.

Evilbu 23:36, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

This was the official justification for that strike,

Israel said it targeted the airport because it is a transfer point for weapons and supplies to Hezbollah. The airport was closed and all flights were diverted.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/13/mideast/index.html

Ruthfulbarbarity 00:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, well (but there is a lock now) that is something we could add. Evilbu 21:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Why was the lighthouse in Beirut eradicated?

Eye-wittnesses have said that it looked like some boored out IAF crew having a local competition between themselves? MX44 10:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Tewfik please discuss removing sources here before

Relating to this last edit, could you explain it here? Please adress important casualties problem above. See also discussions concerning term "war": everybody calls it a war, we should follow use. Please do not claim your POV is "consensus", it's a war, "consensus" is not the correct term to use when you revert 1 000 dead to 500 and change "war" by "conflict". Peace brother, Tazmaniacs 07:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This edit has nothing to do with the "war" issue; I only removed a redundant source due to space issues and changed the characterisation of "all" to a more encyclopedic and verifiable "most."

In terms of the "war" issue though, we should only make a change once the entire procedure finishes. This has nothing to do with POV - as can be evidenced by supporters for competeing titles on both sides of the spectrum. There's just no rush. When we change the page title, we should change the internal reference, but to call it war when the consensus has not arrived at it is pointless. I do hope you understand. Cheers, Tewfik 07:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The edit shown was the reason of the name of this section: why did you remove that source without discussion? Concerning the term "war", do not mix together the issue of the title of this article which is no emergency, and the content of this entry. All mainstream news agency, the Israeli governemnt and Lebanon call it a war. No, I do not understand your support of Tasc's revert of my edits, which include lowering 1 000 killed to 500 and erasing the term "war". Regards, Tazmaniacs 07:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I believe the terms "conflict" and "war" can be used interchangeably, although I honestly don't think it's a major issue. Most observers will characterize these events as a war regardless of how Misplaced Pages, or Reuters, or The Guardian choose to describe them.

I think insisting that 1,000 fatalities is an accurate and reliable figure is another matter altogether.

As someone's already pointed out, several major news agencies-and the current prime minister of Lebanon-have already been caught exaggerating the casualty figures on the Lebanese side. I don't think it's Misplaced Pages's job to elicit sympathy for one side of this conflict, especially not one that is accomplishing that task quite well on its own.

Ruthfulbarbarity 07:40, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Although I do agree with your common sense, you can't argue in favor of the exclusion of the word "war" under the grounds that it doesn't makes any difference. It does. Words have sense. Regarding the 1000, Reuters has deemed the information noteworthy enough to be said. I make no judgment on its reliability, but the fact is that the war is ongoing in Lebanon, and that, as far as I know, the Lebanon government is as valid a source as the Israeli army. Dividing numbers by two is lying. Period. Tazmaniacs 08:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You're right that it matters a great deal, that is reflected in the ongoing discussion about the name. There aren't two separate discussions; if its a war, than it is one in both the title and the content, and if not, likewise. We don't call things by one name in their title and another in their body. Cheers, Tewfik 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Article

Another intresting article. this information needs to be added to ensure NPOV. It echoes Galloways information. --Striver 08:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Ehh .. Would you care to quote what is missing? MX44 09:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

suitable lead

We have 2 edition for some part of lead:

1- On 12 July 2006 Hezbollah initiated Operation Truthful Promise, consisting of a alleged cross-border raid resulting in the capture of two soldiers and shelling into Israel as a diversionary tactic. Israel then responded with Operation Just Reward, later renamed Operation Change of Direction. Israel's strike has included massive bombing raids by the Israeli Air Force (IAF), an air and Israeli Sea Corps naval blockade of Lebanon (especially southern Lebanon and Beirut), a force of tanks and armored personnel carriers, and some small raids into southern Lebanon by IDF ground troops. Meanwhile, Hezbollah has engaged in artillery rocket bombardment of Israel's northern cities and towns, including Haifa.

2- Triggered by a cross-border Hezbollah raid and shelling across the Blue Line into Israel, which resulted in the capture of two and killing of three Israeli soldiers, Israel retaliated with an air and naval blockade of Lebanon, massive airstrikes across the whole country, and ground incursions into southern Lebanon . Hezbollah in turn immediately responded with large-scale rocket attacks into Northern Israel .

I think the first one is more suitable.--Accessible 14:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The first one is more suitable, but the word "alleged" sounds like it is not proven yet. It is proven.... 89.0.219.66 15:46, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Don't propose to answer the question of whether it is or isn't proven, but "alleged" (implying they might not have done it) seems inconsistent with "initiated" (implying they did it).--82.69.133.230 16:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The important difference is that the first version is a mile long. We need to keep this already long article down by not including rather irrelevant details in the intro that are repeated further down anyway, like the names of the various operations and different branches of the IDF. The fact that some Lebanese policemen initially claimed that the Israeli soldiers were taken on the Lebanese side is also something explained further down. As that claim is not supported by the Hezbollah announcements or by the Lebanese government (and they would repeat it over and over again if they felt that the claim was valid), indicates that we do not need to write "alleged" in the intro. Thomas Blomberg 17:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I think the second one is suitable for "Begining of the conflict" not "Lead".--212.6.32.3 07:15, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't understand. Everytime I check the lead there is written a new thing. But nobody participate in this debate. If the talk page is a joke, Please tell me too.--Accessible 09:52, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The name of the Operations is not the most interesting, and, at any cases, they is no reason to put them in bold. These are military details, which is not like the 1000 dead (which concerns civilians). Tazmaniacs 14:25, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Removing Nasrallah quotation and Hezbollah actions

This part is removed frequently.:

On 25 July Nasrallah has announced the launch of the "second phase of our struggle" in which his long-range rockets would "go beyond Haifa," Israel's third-largest city. Israeli officials have been bracing for possible rocket attacks on Tel Aviv. On 29 July in a televised address to the Lebanese nation Nasrallah said:

"I tell the Lebanese that no one among you should be afraid of the victory of the resistance.. I assert that the victory will be for all of Lebanon, for every Arab, Muslim and honorable Christian, who stood with Lebanon and defended it."

30 July reportedly saw 140-146 rockets fired from Hezbollah positions into Israel- the most fired on a single day since IDF Operation Change Direction began. On 2 August rockets also landed near the town of Beit Shean, about 70 kilometres (43 miles) from the border. Reports of rocket attacks reached 300 striking 15 targets inside Israel despite the IDF's claim that the three-week offensive in Lebanon had eroded Hezbollah's firepower.

I think the reason should be written.--Accessible 09:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Because we are trying to keep the article short. That section is a summary of the main article, where this information is (or if it isn't, should be) included already. July 25 was two weeks ago, and his comments are old, and also irrelivent - his actions speak for themselves. Details of his speeches are not needed in a summary. July 30 was over a week ago, and it is already mentioned that Hezbollah have fired a lot of rockets into Israel - the specfic number fired on one day is of no concern here. Please, remember this is a summary - and all of the main info in there (that Hezbollah have fired a lot of rockets on northern towns, and that they have reached quite far south) is already in the section. --Iorek85 10:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Haim Ramon's Comments under "Israeli Position"

Earlier I removed Israeli Justice Minister Haim Ramon's comments from under "Israeli position". In my opinion their mention a few sections below is sufficient and placing them in that context is highly misleading, as regardless of Ramon's words "all civilians in southern Lebanon are terrorists" and "villages should be flattened by air force before ground troops move in" are not Israeli policy in any shape or form, let alone an official one. My changes were reverted by user:El C with the explanation that the comments are "historically significant". I think that still doesn't change the fact that Ramon was merely expressing his opinion of what should be done and not in any way voicing official policy, so the quote should be included but in another part of the article. --AceMyth 13:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Agree, not every comment from a person with a government position is expresing said governments views and policies. --zero faults 13:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Meanwhile I changed the "X but Y" syntax (which is basically an underhanded way to say X, but disregard X, because Y), and replaced the very rough paraphrase of Ramon's words with his actual phrasing. I think it's less jarring now, but should still be moved elsewhere. --AceMyth 13:56, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

He was expressing his "opinion" in his official capacity at an Israeli Government cabinet meeting. As a member of the Government currently in power it might be assumed that his views go towards forming policy on the ground. I believe Ramon's comments are valuable because they go some way to explaning this idea that South Lebanon is a free fire zone. Yesterday it was announced that it was IDF open season on all moving vehicles. Conflict of policy? Drop leaflets telling people to flee then blow up any vehicles moving? 82.29.227.171 16:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The fact that you are assuming is whats wrong. Furthermore there was a warning given regarding moving vehicles and an explanation why. Lastly they were told to flee some weeks ago, those still there I doubt have just been packing bags all this time. Again, stop "assuming" as assumptions are not appropriate for encyclopedia articles. --zero faults 17:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Its a fair assumption. Assuming that the Justice Minister's views count for something isnt farfetched at all. If it is why is he in the post? Why assume his views are ignored in cabinet meetings?

The warnings are quite useless when faced with bombed roads/bridges/convoys, a lack of living drivers, a lack of money to pay them, a lack of vehicles which arent on the "strafe on sight list". Even when people do flee they get shot at. PLUS we now have examples of areas being bombed without leaflet drops. Check this article which provides examples to back up everything I just stated. Although based on your comments I think youre more likely to agree with Ramon when he said "all those in South Lebanon are terrorists" 82.29.227.171 21:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

"might be assumed that his views go towards forming policy on the ground" I am tired of arguing with all the anon's that dont understand how Misplaced Pages works, just provide sources stating his views are guiding policy and its acceptable, else please stop assuming as it doesnt contribute anything to the article.. --zero faults 13:18, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Why assume his views are ignored in cabinet meetings? Provide a source that says they are. His own words as a member of the Government indicate Government policy. His own words tally with whats happening on the ground. Commonsensical. RandomGalen 22:58, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Widing of the War

Where should it be mentioned that the Israel's Security Cabinet approved the widing of the war? Israel Security Council OKs Wider Ground Offensive in Lebanon Red1530 13:53, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

BUTTTTTT Israel said it would widen the war if and only if diplomacy at the UN doesn't work. It's not an immediate green light to widen the war. --68.1.182.215 16:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Request that "Civilians..." section be cleaned up

I am unable to edit right now, so I would like to draw a more senior user's attention on this matter:

This paragraph needs to be changed to use less inflammatory wording:

Strikes on Lebanon's civilian population and infrastructure include Beirut airport, residential buildings, clearly marked ambulances, fleeing civilians prominently waving white flags, United Nations posts and personnel, ports, a lighthouse, grain silos, bridges, roads, factories, medical and relief trucks, mobile telephone and television stations, fuel containers and service stations, and the country's largest dairy farm Liban Lait.

"clearly marked ambulances" and "fleeing civilians prominently waving white flags" is ridiculous wording, clearly showing an Anti-Israel bias.

It is fine to say that there have been confirmed instances of ambulances and fleeing civilians being hit, but to use language like "clearly marked" and "prominently waving white flags" is completely unacceptable and should be removed.

Also, I will request again that some mention be made of Hezbollah's use of warheads filled with ball bearings (whihc are designed to maximize human casualties). All mention of this was removed, apparently by POV vandals. 19:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)Gidklio

The part about the ball bearings was moved down and is now next to the part about Hezbollah using civilians as human shields, I believe. --AceMyth 15:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Check this article which provides examples to back the wording up. Is it "anti-Israel bias" when its factual? The detail on the shrapnel rockets does belong in this article. 82.29.227.171 16:26, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

1. I think the objection he expressed was regarding the tone, not necessarily the content. 2. I can't access the source for the civilians "prominently waving white flags", for example, because I'm not registered on the NYT website, but as it stands the article implies basically that Israel attacked civilians waving white flags and Hospitals and so forth for no reason in particular except that it sounded like a fun thing to do at the time. I mean, is that it? Has Israel denied these allegations, issued any official response, anything?... I smell PoV by omission. --AceMyth 16:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Haven't Israeli "ports...roads...factories...telephone and television...service stations" also been hit? At the rate of 150-200 Katyushas fired per day, there's no way that Israeli roads have been magically spared the destruction from cheap inacurate rockets. Why is this list put under Lebanon if it's not also put under Israel? And in that case it should be removed entirely because it's expected that in an air war, roads will be damaged.Gidklio 19:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Karen Kwiatkowski

This belongs in Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict where you will find corroborating evidence on NSA sharing SIGINT with the IDF- check the Salon.com article cited there 82.29.227.171 16:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Use of weapons with wide blast patterns

The merging of Hezbollah's ball-bearing use into a section with other critiques of Hezbollah while creating a section just for claims against Israeli cluster-bomb use creates a skewed presentation of facts, and minimises Hezbollah's problems while highlighting problems with Israel. This is especially true in this case where Human Rights Watch feels that the two issues are related and deals with both under one subheading. While I'm sure this wasn't the intent, the outcome is an extremely POV section. Please address, Tewfik 18:21, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

This section should be renamed—the title naïvely misrepresents the issues with these weapons.

Ball-bearings are a normal feature of certain high-explosive fragmenting warheads, HE-Frag—others use metal fragmentation casings designed to turn into shrapnel. These are conventional antipersonnel weapons intended to be most effective against unarmoured targets, including unprotected civilians. Cluster bombs release a series of grenades or minelets, particular ones are be designed for antipersonnel or anti-armour use, or both—like antipersonnel land mines, they may leave behind unexploded munitions which render the ground dangerous, and may indiscriminately maim or kill civilians long after a conflict.

It also should be explicitly mentioned that the Katyusha-type artillery rocket launchers being used by Hezbollah are bargain-basement area weapons, sacrificing accuracy for the economy of their launchers and ammunition, and for a high volume of fire. One of their characteristics is their shock action against even experienced, prepared soldiers, when they are used en masse. Launching them at inhabited areas is an indiscriminate attack on civilians, and in my opinion practically constitutes a terror attack by definition. —Michael Z. 2006-08-09 19:14 Z

Nasrallah - spiritual leader

Are you sure? Isn't it old Fadlallah? 89.1.208.97 21:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point.

Nasrallah's title-to the best of my recollection-is "Secretary-General" of Hezbollah.

Ruthfulbarbarity 22:03, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

IRGC should be readded as a combatant

Reuters story says that IRGC members were found by Israeli soliders. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hello32020 (talk • contribs)

There were reports they were fighting before, and this is proof that they are there, so it makes since to include them in my oppinion. ~Rangeley (talk) 22:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is denying that Iran is supplying Hezbollah with weaponry, not even the Iranian government itself.

And the fact that their have been Iranian casualties, most likely Pasderan, has also been well-established, IMO.

Ruthfulbarbarity 22:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops forgot to add name before

We should readd if we get one or two more people due to consensus. Hello32020 22:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

While Iran is involved to an extent (documented somewhat at Roles of non-combatant State and non-State actors in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict - though more detail would be appreciated), I'm not sure that they should be considered a combatant yet, just like China was not considered a combatant in Viet Nam. I don't claim to know the line they must cross to be considered, but this, like so many other issues here, may be subject to the Elephant test. Cheers, Tewfik 00:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Criticisms of the allegation that Hezbollah is using human shields

Someone removed the subsection Criticisms of the allegation that Hezbollah is using human shields. i have put it back in.

Please explain why the criticisms of the allegations should not be present in the article. The allegations are disputed, so WP:NPOV means we have to present the arguments for and against. i don't understand how someone can remove this, unless s/he is attempting to present only one POV in this section.

Thanks. Boud 22:18, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I didn't remove it, but I'm about to vastly shorten both sections. That section is a summary of the sub article, where the larger quotes and details can be found. The article is currently far too long. Iorek85 22:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Which "sub article"? The present version looks something like an NPOV summary, though i agree that more splitting off into a new article and then bringing a better summary back here would make more sense. Boud 23:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Boud I believe this needs its own article to be dealt with, there is both too much detail on it and too much criticism. It is overpowering both this article and the article on Targeting civilian areas. I will leave a message on your talk. 82.29.227.171 22:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Breaking off into a separate article X sounds fine to me - then NPOV debate can happen in the discussion of the new article X and this article (2006_Israel...) can have whatever the latest NPOV summary of article X is and we can tell people to stop doing things here which could sound POV since the debate is happening there. So then the main question is: what title? (one that delete-maniacs will not try to delete). How about:

Allegations of human shield usage in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict ?

i think you'll find in Jonathan Cook's article, that there's something like an allegation that Israel has deliberately built military facitilies close to Israeli-Arab population centres - so that's more or less an allegation that Israel has been using human shields, in which case the allegations go both ways (that doesn't mean that they are equally true, just as "Israel-Lebanon" conflict does not claim that one side is more morally/legally right than the other). Anyway, the point is the allegations go both ways enough for NPOV to require that the title go both ways.

IMHO, part of the article would be documenting the rhetoric by "both" sides and other parties, and the title reflects this, and (briefly) its relation to human rights law, the geneva conventions etc, some comments by analysts (not wikipedians ;) about whether or not the concept of "human shields" makes any sense or not, the history of the term itself (AFAIK it only dates back to the 1991 attack on Iraq, when it was used to show that Saddam Hussein was not just a US-installed dictator, but he was also a really evil man - but don't quote me on this, i'm just saying this from neural memory). It would be necessary to avoid too much overlap with the numbers of civilian victims, though of course, that a summary of civilian victims would presumably be part of the article.

i can't promise much work on the article, but i think we have enough material as it is and then the NPOV + NOR process can go on from there... Boud 23:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Great Boud, thank you for your help. In a fork article it will be more manageable and easier to NPOV/NOR as you said. (User:82.29.227.171) RandomGalen 13:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The quote in the article that says not using human shields would be "like standing in an open field waiting to be shot" is absurd. Hezbollah could build bunkers, tunnels, etc., in which to hide, they don't need to hide behind women and children. That is, of course, not true if their real goal is to maximize Lebanese civilian casualties to try to elicit world sympathy and/or to excuse their own killing of Israeli civilians. StuRat 23:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Israeli use of human shields: a look at the other side of the coin & a New light on Hezbollah

Firstly this is an article by a jounralist in Israel who has managed to give some information, as little as it is, that proves Hezbollah is not deliberately targeting Israeli civilians, at least yet. It is in depth and covers the issue through a military analysis with verification. If you will all take the time to read it you will agree and see. It is also neutral and looks at both sides with critique.

Hypocrisy About Hezbollah by Jonathan Cook http://www.antiwar.com/orig/cook.php?articleid=9511

Now as for the missile claims and Hezbollah using civilian shields this has been rebuked as false almost totally by the local population, observers, international aids, the Red Cross, Lebanese government officials, on-site journalists, relgious leaders (Christian & Muslim) and Hezbollah.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060803&articleId=2899

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=JAM20060801&articleId=2883

http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=20060730&articleId=2860

69.196.164.190

Antiwar.com doesnt seem like a WP:RS source of information. Furthermore its an opinion peace by a non expert in the field. Take it as it is, one mans opinion. --zero faults 13:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually you have no idea what you are talking about; firstly it is a ledding jounralist talking about basically how Hezbollah is not attacking civilians, but targets in Israel that are industrial or military. It says a lot maybe you should read it. Secondly it was not written for ant-War.com, it is featured there. 69.196.164.190

Odd there are no credits for it coming from somewhere else, so either you are misunderstanding or its a copywrite violation. WP:RS doesnt extend to the journalist themself, but the agency in which they write for, perhaps there is a reason he isnt writing for his normal outlet. Its also still an opinion piece by a non-expert. --zero faults 20:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hezbollah-Pasderan Links

Here are some of the sources that lend credibility to this assertion:

http://www.nysun.com/article/36326

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/5242566.stm?ls

http://english.farsnews.com/newstext.php?nn=8505160247

http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-09T215844Z_01_L09100220_RTRUKOC_0_UK-MIDEAST-LEBANON-IRANIANS.xml

Ruthfulbarbarity 22:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've just heard reports on WABC news that reporters were shown Iranian identity papers discovered on the person(s) of individuals killed in S. Lebanon.

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:07, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hezbollah-Pasderan Links Seem to be Propganda

These claims seem to be propaganda because;

• Military personal of a covert natural wil never wear or have anything that can be traced back to their nation

• The Israelis are making a claim, nothing has been proven and verified by a neutral party

• Hezbollah & the Iranian government have said there are no Iranian troops in Lebanon; this are official statements to 'consider', but also NOTE the fact that so far Hezbollah has been more honest than Israel has.

• It is a clear Israeli and White House objective to produce a smoking gun for Iran; meaning blame Iran for the attacks for justification of somesort of future conflict with Iran and /or Syria.

• The claims are made about dead bodies; how can they tell they are Iranian? Even if they are they are not wearing any Iranian uniforms, etc.

• So far a lot of the Israeli claims have either proven to be false and/or contradictory

I also want it to be noted by all impartial and fair editors that there is a strong and repeteaded eagerness to involve Iran in this conflict by Israel and the White House as part of their PR, there are also certain editors who wish to do the same and their history and actions have given strong indications to where they stand on the issue and who they favour. Also remeber that it has been discovered that Israel and the Israeli lobby have declared a cyber-war where they are lunching a campaing to manipulate the internet with propganda. Just checking a lot of these IP histories and so on will confirm what is being said. Thank You

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20079382-23109,00.html http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-09T233401Z_01_L09130902_RTRUKOC_0_US-MIDEAST-LEBANON-HIZBOLLAH-DENIAL.xml&WTmodLoc=NewsHome-C1-topNews-3 http://today.reuters.com/News/CrisesArticle.aspx?storyId=L10130494 http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/09805695-3577-421D-BC35-8FE01E8EAD06.htm http://www.socialistworker.org/2006-2/597/597_10_MythsLies.shtml 69.196.164.190 Bold text

I believe the impartial and fair editors of Misplaced Pages are perfectly able to judge PoV from NPoV and tell propaganda from well-cited material without your generous, neutral efforts to point them in the right direction, thank you very much. This is a discussion forum, not a soapbox. --AceMyth 11:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Proposed UN resolution

Is there a Misplaced Pages article on the proposed UN resolution? I've started to write something at Lebanon and the United Nations but don't know if that's the best place for it. HieronyMouse 02:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Not the United Nations per se, but an article about the reaction of international organizations does exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/International_reactions_to_the_2006_Israel-Lebanon_conflict_by_Organizations

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I have started 2006 United Nations Security Council resolution on Lebanon and need help with it. HieronyMouse 02:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Some reading material,

http://www.boston.com/news/world/articles/2006/08/08/diplomatic_divide_on_halt_to_fighting_stalls_new_proposal/

http://www.nysun.com/article/37518

http://www.concordmonitor.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060726/REPOSITORY/607260363/1043/NEWS01

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=7f9a2caa-5e39-48e5-8d4d-760139d63710&k=71041

http://www.ledger-enquirer.com/mld/ledgerenquirer/news/world/15148142.htm

Ruthfulbarbarity 02:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please note that there is already an article called Negotiations for ceasefire in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict which the 2006 United Nations Security Council resolution on Lebanon should be linked to, just as the Siniora Plan already is. Negotiations for ceasefire in the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict is in desperate need of a re-write, by the way. As for the first UN draft text, you'll find it at the Democracy in Lebanon website. However, judging from what's happening in New York right now, that text will either be re-written a lot, or totally scrapped, as France and the US are quickly moving in opposite directions. Regards Thomas Blomberg 03:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Big bias against Hezbollah

It looks like the international media suppresses news of big jewish losses. The chief of zionist army in the area was sacked the day before yesterday, because he was deemed "overly cautious and slow-acting". Major-General Mose Kaplinski replaced him. During first night following this leadership change FIFTEEN zionists soldiers were killed by hezbollah warriors, which is a huge loss for such a short time. Even if it is true that jews killed 40 hezbolah warriors in the same clashes, the proportion is still very good for the jihadists, considering the vast equipment overpower of jews due to tens of billions of dollars in free american weapon shipments. The fact that Hezbollah is not an underdog is not properly represented in this article. Hezbollah is the best muslim army, besides Pakistan.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 195.70.32.136 (talk • contribs) 04:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please provide sources, I know people want to help balance the article and add information, but you have to post links or some other information for anything to be included in the article. --zero faults 13:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes I read that he was fired, first time this had happened the media said. Although what they expect him or his men to do against such well trained and well equipped Guerilla is beyond me. A former leader of 'Peace Now' who protested the previous invasions and an 'military correspondant' as prime minister may not be the best candidates for the job :D RandomGalen 13:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Who would give a military job to someone who wants peace ... that is not sarcasm, seriously who would do such a thing? --zero faults 13:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

((removed rhetoric)) Please keep in mind this is not a political forum. Discuss the article in question directly. --zero faults 20:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Various hits, situation not exactly as 195.70.32.136 describes, but close. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747986.html mdf 20:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Hezbollah Action

What's wrong with the last sentence in this section on the main page? Precis 11:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Haaretz References are not acceptable

References from haaretz are weakning the reliability of article. Abulfazl 11:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Abulfazl 11:22, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you make a good point. Haaretz and JPost are in the business of selling papers to a public in battle, they are also under restrictions from the censors in Israel. Haaretz does report well but the JPost has frequently inserted words into the IDF spokesmans mouth which give a misleading impression. Editors should take care to check the actual IDF press releases/video and Hezbollah output which the journalists write about. I always take care when a strange statement, figure, or remark is reported to use the qualifier "reportedly this happened"- this alerts the reader that this may not be the entire picture. This protects wikipedia from journalistic bias in combatant nations. Just as you would not take comment from journalist in Lebanon Daily Star reports about "Israeli crimes" so you should do the same for all sources. RandomGalen 13:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:RS and argue there if they are sources that meet the standards. Until a concensus forms on WP:RS that they are to no longer meeting the requirements, they are acceptable. Also if you have reports from Lebanese news sources that are in english, feel free to add them, they are more then welcomed as has been pointed out numerous times. --zero faults 13:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"the censors in Israel"? Are you kidding? It's front page news around that world if Israel's Cabinet votes to expand or not expand operations! The Israeli press is incredibly loose (how else would everyone know that Dimona-of-peace-power is actually Dimona-of-don't-tell-them-we-have-the-bomb)? Gidklio 19:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Because of Mordechai Vanunu telling it to the british press? My point is that their media is operating in national conflict, with some journalistic reportage and some censor control. I accept your point. RandomGalen 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Reference 22

It's a dead link... 84.109.52.88 17:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Section: International Reaction

• In addition, Tehran reportedly sends Hezbollah $60-100 million per year. In contrast, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan criticized Hezbollah's actions, as well as Iran and Syria for extending support to the organization, although they are under pressure to change their stance. This part of the article needs to be fixed. First off let's repalce tehran and put Iran. Then Iran gives 100 million exactly, not 60-100 million a year.

http://daily.stanford.edu/article/2006/8/3/israellebanonConflictStirsLocalTensionResponse

• http://www.forward.com/articles/8123]] [[http://www.cfr.org/publication/11122/ http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601070&sid=aDBGipyREFes&refer=home I could give you more. So my point is made. So this part in the section should read... In addition, Iran reportedly sends Hezbollah $100 million per year. In contrast, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Jordan criticized Hezbollah's actions, as well as Iran and Syria for extending support to the organization, although they are under pressure to change their stance.

Political Correctness BS

Should someone add that the IRA ( Iranian Revolutionary Army) Has been found amognst the dead bodies of hezbollah terrorists, and that they (IRA) should be added to the death count, and this leads to the issue of political correctness in this article. Fact is what i said above should be added to the article. Also let's stop labeling Hezbollah, Amal, and PFlP-GC as militas, let's cut the political Correctness BS and label them what they are.... TERRORISTS, Come on guys. Add this stuff and be fair like wikipedia is supposed to be. If we can agree on the stuff on the stuff that I posted all above on deathtoll, section:International Reaction and, political correctness. I would like to have open debate on this and have and it the fair way, and i think the death toll needs to be configured within three to five days. Zonerocks 17:23 (UTC)

First I heard of this, are their sources to support? --zero faults 17:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The issue of using "terrorists" or "militants" is much more trouble than it's worth. Why all the fuss when the word "militants" has basically become a shorthand for "considered terrorists by most of the people they blow up, considered legitimate by some of the people they don't", which is NPoV par excellance. --AceMyth 17:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Considering their operate illegally under the UN Charter, they should at least be labeled an illegal militia, can a militia be legal? --zero faults 17:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"...are their sources to support this?"

Look upthread.

Ruthfulbarbarity 17:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, didnt notice this was a break off from another discussion, seeing some of the sources are highly reliable I think it should be added, they all seem to say Iran denies it however so that should probably be included, until proof is offered that is beyond the point of doubts. --zero faults 18:02, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Man someone had to write something. now i lost everything i typed in my response. ok lets try again. Hey I understand, But not everyone know this ace. The sooner people understand that groups like hezbollah aren't legit, and they are more like terrorists, the sooner people will understand that what hezbollah is doing, are terrorists acts. This article is very politically correct, and it paints the picture that, HEZBOLLAH IS A MILITIA DEFENDING THE PEOPLE OF LEBANON BY FIGHTING THE BIG, BAD ISRAELIS. Where in this article does it say hezbollah is the probelm and isn't supposed to be there. Ruth those articles are legit. Also ruth the un charter says alot of things, and brings the point on why shouldn't the things the charter says not be in this article, and if we don't put terrorists, then we need to put illegal milita. --zonerocks

Ruth the sources are legit so let's move to the next stage and edit the money and im ok with adding iran denies it. Also What do yall think about adding The IRA to the casualty list. Read the entire beginning of political correctness to know what i am talking about. --zonerocks

Depends if there is an accurate count and further if its ever verified or proof offered I would say. I wouldnt add them if its like 5 soldiers, but if its bordering on 20 or so, then I think it should be added. However barring Iran stops denying or mass media stops believing they are not there. --zero faults 18:16, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ruth well in that case then why do we have that one "Milita" that has one casualty, and ruth how are we going to edit this stuff it won't allow it. Do we ask to temporarily allow us to do it. --zonerocks

I don't think we should add anything about IRA as it is an Israeli claim, Hezbollah and Iran denies it. If it's added, then the article will become biased, which it shouldn't. Unless there is real proof coming from non-propaganda media, the Iranian soldiers being part of Hezbollah's army are to be considered as being false information. At least, that's my opinion. Also, about this "call them terrorists" thing, I wonder why people still have the guts to call Hezbollah terrorists.. Who calls them like that ? the US, UK, Israel ? why ? because they're against them, that's it. And it's public opinion because Israel+US govern the media... If you read other people's opinion, you'll see that Israel is a terrorist state, it used many of the Holocaust's strategies against the Arab world and if Hitler was wrong (and he was), Israel is also wrong. -- KaKaRoTo

US, UK, Australia, Netherlands, Israel, Canada consider them a terrorist organization and EU considers their senior intelligence officer a terrorist, Russia has condemned their tactics as "terrorist methods" and EU has recognized clear evidence of terrorist activities. That is just to answer your question. --zero faults 18:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The first bullet point in the first pretty pastel-shaded box in this page reads "Please do not use as a forum for general discussion about the article's subject". Please take note, and acknowledge that exactly this sort of unwanted discussion is what tends to get started when you go around calling a whole country "terrorist" and comparing it to Nazi Germany. Personally I came here exactly because I find a psychological refuge in the tenets of Misplaced Pages, where even people involved in highly controversial subjects are committed to NPoV and searching for the truth instead of hurling around emotionally-resounding accusations. So... Please. --AceMyth 18:40, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Begining of the conflict

Hi, why is it that the begining of the conflict states that Hezbollah attacked Israel with Katyushas and mortar? I never heard of that and I see no source proving this. The only source there is a 404 link. This should be corrected. If two versions of the story are available (from Israel and from Hezbollah) then both versions should be stated, not the 'pro-israel, anti-hezbollah' version. This article really looked biased and non-neutral. KaKaRoTo

(Personal attack removed)

It's like clamoring for equal numbers of pro-heliocentric and pro-geocentric editorials in the Times. Would we say a paper is biased because it runs off a thousand and one heliocentric aritcles before printing a geocentric one? Gidklio 19:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel is a terrorist entity, all the people of the Middle East; Arabs, Greeks, Turks, Armenians, and Iranians alike are committed to freedom, which Israel is trying to take away from them. There were no Iranian soilders amongst the Lebanese Resistance fighting the Israeli invasion to grab more land and take water. Israel lies and has provided no proof. Israel atacks civilians, the unarmed U.N. observers, and Red Cross. 69.196.164.190

Won't respond. Too busy oppressing Greeks and Turks. --AceMyth 21:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This is not a political forum. --zero faults 20:10, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Background of conflict

I think that some key points regarding the background of the conflict should go to the introduction instead of being stuck in the obscure lower regions of the article. Like the declared aim of Israel in initiating its attack, the status quo between Israel and Hezbollah prior to this conflict (including UN resolution 1559 and its implementation or rather lack thereof) and Hezbollah's aims in general in occupying the border. A lot of important things about this conflict stem from the historical context in which it is taking place. --AceMyth 18:32, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm able to edit the article (it's only sprotected, not fully protected). I just wanted to bring this to the talk page and see whether maybe anybody has some valid reasons against before I mess around with the article's structure like this. --AceMyth 19:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

How can you edit it? So i guess i object cause i want to know.

Sprotection only lets "established" users (accounts over 4 days old) edit articles. --AceMyth 19:09, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

How much background information regarding the historical context should be included?

If we want to trace this back to its root causes we can go back all the way to 1975, when the Lebanese civil war began, or to Black September and the Palestinian exodus from Jordan, but something tells me that isn't the direction you were suggesting.

Actually, Lebanon (along with other Arab nations) attacked Israel in 1948 and has never — unlike Jordan and Egypt — made peace.пан Бостон-Київський 23:27, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ruthfulbarbarity 19:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

hwo do you get Sprotection

I guess it might be to late to object. But im going to object anyway. First im sure all of would want to know what "structual" things you will be doing, and I think before you add it, we should all be able to see it, and then come to an agreement. --zonerocks 19:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me but Israel was the one that crossed the border

There are certain editors that are helping put an Israeli POV, which is based on falsehood and propganda into this article,

Please look up where the Israeli soilders were captured...it was in South Lebanon according to Lebanese officials, the Lebanese Police, and Hezbollah. This was reported widely in Europe and the Middle East but started getting covered up...The Agence France-Presse (AFP), one of the three largest news agencies in the world...not to mention the Associated Press and the Hindustan Times have also reported this and I have provided a link within a link to them...

Check

http://uruknet.info/?p=m25034&hd=0&size=1&l=e http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hezbollah_soldiers.html http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m24913&hd=0&size=1&l=e http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=COO20060720&articleId=2767 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=FRA20060725&articleId=2813 http://www.voltairenet.org/article142056.html

These links themselves have links to even more significant sources...

Also two of those sites are world famous for their work, by leading experts and adacemics. Two of those links also had other links on them, plus one of the verifications is The Agence France-Presse (AFP), one of the three largest news agencies in the world...not to mention the Associated Press and the Hindustan Times.

I also want you to note that the Israeli media has proven to be censored and used for propaganda purposes...all their reports of advancement into Lebanon have turned out to be bogus. Or even reading this says it all; http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1153291980307&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I noticed that there is a lot of pro-Israeli rhetoric on the site that is trying to give the world a false image of the attacks on Lebanon and Lebanese civilians.

God Bless 69.196.164.190

The link you posted leads to an article that has nothing whatsoever to do with Israeli military progress in South Lebanon, or censorship related to military operations.

Also, I don't think Uruknet is a valid, let alone unbiased, source.

You are not objecting to the impartiality of this article, simply insisting that your biases be included.

Ruthfulbarbarity 20:03, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You are trying to mislead others or are not lookig at the wrong link. The last link shows how low and stupid Israeli propganda is. All the links are listed. 69.196.164.190

So we have one Forbes story of all those sources against every other source that says otherwise ... I think its safe to conclude that if it was the way you say, more then Urukunet and GlobalResearch would have said so by now. --zero faults 20:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

You are clearly trying to add misinformation on this site on behalf of Israel. It is Israel that attacked Lebanon, it is Israel that continually kidnapped people from Lebanpon, it is Israel tht continually according to the UN and ionternational observers shlled and killed Lebanese farmers before the conflict and violated Lebanese soverignty (you think any nation will allow another nations jets to fly over its territory unchallenged whenever it wishes? And this was before this conflict!); it is Israel that has invaded Lebanon 3 times; it is Israel that has used car bombs to kill Lebanese officialsand even people going to courts to testify against Israeli war crimes; it is Israel that was stealing Lebanese natural resources for years; it is Israel that does not respect international laws; it is Israel that has massacred unarmed civilians before this war; it is Israel that attacked American saiolrs on the U.S.S. Liberty and tried to frame the Egyptians; it is Israel that assasinated Red Cross workers and European diplomats trying to forge peace in the Holy Land; it is Israel that uses collective punishment; it is ISrael that uses Canadian passports for assasinations; it is Israel that has been caught fabricating and lying over and over again.

69.196.164.190

You have one link that really doest prove much. Also, please be a member of wikipedia before you post your thoughts. Your post seems to be more of an opinon then a fair unbiased add to the article. Your jpos link is bull, you can't fool people on here, because we will actually check it out. This is not a forum to spew BS. Zonerocks22:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

What is Terrorism?

Terrorism is consisely defined by WordNet as:

terrorism, act of terrorism, terrorist act -- (the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence)
against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature;
this is done through intimidation or coercion or instilling fear)

Hezbollah admits, nay, is quite unabashed about doing just that in the words of its envoy to Iran:

"We are going to make Israel not safe for Israelis. We will expand attacks. The people who came to Israel, (they) moved there to live, not to die. If we continue to attack, they will leave."

Calling such deliberate targeting of civilians "terrorism" is not expressing a POV — it is stating a fact.

Whether or not Israel does the same is irrelevant. пан Бостон-Київський 20:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Exactly, and it gives another reason why we should take out milita and add terrorists. Zonerocks 22:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Israel shopuld be added as a Terrorist state... 69.196.164.190

Timeline

This article rather bombastically states that "Triggered by a cross-border Hezbollah raid and shelling". This particular version of the timeline is disputed by many. Here is a good article by George Monbiot in the CIF section of The Guardian. 84.48.108.238 22:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Your "good article" link states:

The assault on Lebanon was premeditated - the soldiers' capture simply provided the excuse. (emphasis mine)

Thus it is, in fact, correct to say, as the article currently does, that the response was triggered by the soldiers' capture. That Israel — having suffered steady stream of attacks for six years since its complete UN-certified withdrawal — had a plan prepared to respond for real (as opposite to pass the sound barrier above a village) at the time of their choosing, changes nothing.

Every country's military maintains plans for all plausible military operations, so that when the government decides to act, the military can do so in minutes.

пан Бостон-Київський 23:14, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Lebanon claims IDF troops have captured around 350 Lebanese soldiers

We should add this to the table in the front of the article. In the combatants section where it says lebanon and under where is says casualties, we need to add 350 lebanese soldiers captured in the lebanese city of Marj Ayoun. Here is an article http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/748556.html to support this claim. So let's act quick and add it, and let's think about adding it to the section: Israeli action. Hope we can have a good, and open discussion about it. --Zonerocks 23:34, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

THIS USER, Zonerocks, IS AN ISRAELI PROPGANDA ARTIST HERE; WHO HAS BEEN TRYING TO MISLEAD EVERYONE AND HIDE ISRAELI WAR CRIMES AND ISRAELI TERRORISM! 69.196.164.190

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