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Biography: Politics and Government Stub‑class

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Nationality

Silvius Magnago was Austrian-Italian, as Meran was part of Austria at the time of his birth. 14.200.158.57 (talk) 14:07, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Meran/-o

Tha article states at the moment: Magnago was born in Meran. Various IPs try to change that into Merano. I find that inapposite for the following reasons:

• When Magnago was born, Meran was still part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. At those times, Meran had only one single official name, and that was Meran. Merano was only introduced with the Regio decreto nr. 800 in 1923. Therefore, writing Merano in an 1914-context is an anachronism. Immanuel Kant's birthplace was Königsberg, Umberto D'Ancona's was Fiume, and so on: It seems to be good Misplaced Pages practice to avoid anachronisms.
• Both Meran and Merano are used in English language. Per WP:NOTBROKEN there is no need for exchanging one name with another.
• An IP also stated as an additional justification that Bolzano and Merano populations are made mainly of native Italian speakers... That is simply wrong and shows that the user behind the IPs has little or no knowledge about the subject. In fact, Merano has a German speaking majority. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 11:51, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I quote from Talk:Merano:

• "Misplaced Pages naming convention states to use the most common name in English which is in fact Merano"
• "Bozen and Meran are most commonly called Bolzano and Merano in modern English, so we use those"
• "What the English speakers do is of course more relevant for the English language Misplaced Pages, so Merano is the correct solution"

I quote from Talk:Bolzano:

• "Bolzano is the Italian name, Bozen is the German name, Bolzano is the English name; English wikipedia => English name"
• "While I am more than happy to call the city Bozen myself, for the English Misplaced Pages Bolzano is the proper name based on common usage and naming conventions"
• "All English language encyclopedia's will refer to Bolzano and all other cities that were formerly German by the name the country they are now part of calls them"

There isn't a single line where it was established that Merano/Bolzano must be called Meran/Bozen before 1923. It's just your personal, subjective opinion. If you think your opinion is correct, then create a new topic in Talk:Merano and Talk:Bolzano asking to change the consensus. If you succeed in persuading admins that the consensus needs to be changed, then you're free to edit these articles in that way, but now you're just going against consensus.
In order to reply what you wrote here:

• At those times, Meran had only one single official name, and that was Meran. Merano was only introduced with the Regio decreto nr. 800 in 1923 are you serious? You instst with this argument, and I keep answering: Italy was officially created in 1981, before it's always been just a clusted of statelets, some of them dominated by Austrians, French, Spanish, etc.... Are you saying that, wherever there's an Italian town name in an article about a previous period than 1981, we should use the name used in that period (Latin, ancient Italian, local dialect, foreign conqueror's language...)? Again: are you serious? Or just incoherent because this is all right just for Merano and Bolzano, or even just for those 2 articles? Please...
• Both Meran and Merano are used in English language > "Misplaced Pages naming convention states to use the most common name in English which is in fact Merano" + "Bozen and Meran are most commonly called Bolzano and Merano in modern English, so we use those" = "What the English speakers do is of course more relevant for the English language Misplaced Pages, so Merano is the correct solution"
• there is no need for exchanging one name with another so why do you keep exchanging ona name with another?

And about your last point: you're right. In Merano Italian speakers are "just" 49,26%, while the "German speaking majority" (sic!) is even 50,27! Crushing. Really. Well, until 1961 Italian speakers were 58,6%... Why don't we change all these town names in the encyclopedia renaming them all "Merano" from 1923 and 1961 and "Meran" before 1923 and after 1961? Not silly at all, not at all... Well, the consensus is Merano, not Meran, even if there's 1,01% of German speakers more than Italian speakers. Period. Again, and I hope for the last time: you're free to go on the talk page and ask for a change. Just a piece of news: the last one who asked for that change, the IP 131.159.0.47 from "Monaco di Baviera" (^^), is still waiting for someone to become aware of his topic after 1 year. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.20.2.95 (talk) 19:33, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

One more word, my Italian friend, and I'll erase every single Fiume I'll find on en.wikipedia ;-) No, sorry, just kidding, I won't, I'm not like you.

Regarding the stuff from the talk pages: Sorry, not interested. You say There isn't a single line where it was established that Merano/Bolzano must be called Meran/Bozen before 1923. I answer: There isn't a single line where it was established that Merano/Bolzano must be called Merano/Bolzano before 1923. In fact, nobody says anywhere anything about that question. If I'm wrong, please correct me.

Yes, I'm serious. And I can easily show you dozens of cases, where Misplaced Pages avoids anachronistic usage. Immanuel Kant's was born in Königsberg, Umberto D'Ancona's was born in Fiume, Constantine XI Palaiologos was born in Constantinople, etc. etc. Are you going to change all these articles, too?

so why do you keep exchanging ona name with another? I'm simply reverting your totally useless contributions. The article Silvius Magnago needs expansion, high quality sources, users with knowledge and linguistic skills. The article certainly doesn't need linguistic cleansing, just because you don't want to be bothered by the name Meran. There is even a special policy, that strongly encourages users not to annoy authors with useless changes. It's called WP:NOTBROKEN. Mettiti il cuore in pace, there is nothing wrong with using Meran.

About your last point: That is not comparable. The town has two names since World War II, so both of them could be used for that period. Before 1923 it had just one name. That doesn't mean, that Merano could not be used anywhere in pre-1923-contexts (maybe there are cases, where it is justified), but there is certainly no reason to erase the German name everwhere. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 20:06, 28 November 2015 (UTC)

I've removed your personal attacks (my "nationalist cleansing", "stubborness", "time wasting", etc).

Just because I removed your abusive comments earlier? I inserted my remarks again,without "nationalist" and "stubborn", but "time wasting" is certainly not a personal attack. The next time I see you removing harmless comments I will go and get a semi-protection of this talk page, too... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:09, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, but that's not, how it works. Dear user behind the IPs, why don't you stop with your behaviour? First you changed the sentence with Magnago's birthplace into:

• Magnago was born in Merano, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and named Meran. Sorry, but that implicates to the readers that the town was named Meran only under Austrian rule. That is factually wrong. Meran was the town's official name in 1914 as it is still today. Then you chose the following version:
• Magnago was born in Meran (today Merano)... Again, this implicates to the readers, that the town isn't called Meran anymore. And, again, that is factually wrong.

Come on, what is going on here? What's all this fuss about? Wouldn't you prefer to spend your time for more useful activities? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 19:58, 29 November 2015 (UTC)

All right. Then let's switch back to the original solution: Merano. Period. Since you are rejecting any attempt of compromise to use both names. So we'll use just the first one, the more correct, the consensus name. If that's what you prefer, no problem.

The "original solution" was Meran/Merano, but you didn't like that either :-) --Mai-Sachme (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

The original solution found by my friend and respectful of en.wikipedian consensus, which you keep ignoring, was Merano/Meran. Correct because Merano is the most used name in English. Correct because the main article is Merano while Meran is just a redirrect. Correct because in the main article I read "Merano or Meran" not "Meran or Merano". That's why the Merano/Meran solution would have been the best one. But you didn't even accept your very "original solution", Meran/Merano, you had to remove the absolutely correct name Merano. It's you the one who doesn't make compromise and acts against consensus. It's just true. Oh, it's obvious that this behaviour of yours doesn't make you a nationalist, nor an extremist, absolutely not at all, I want this opinion of mine to be clear enough.

No, the original solution was Meran/Merano and Bozen/Bolzano, as everyone can see. After noticing your heroic "improvements" (, ), I tried to avoid anachronisms and find a line of compromise, by changing one town name to the German (and at those times only official) version and the other town name to the Italian version, but all in vain... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 13:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Don't pretend you don't understand. Meran/Merano and Bozen/Bolzano was the very first article text, the solution found by my friend to respect the consensus was using first Merano-Bolzano and then Meran-Bozen. It wasn't like your "final solution" (pardon... Freudian lapsus) which consisted in totally removing the Italian name Merano refusing every compromise attempt such as "Meran (today Merano)" and "Merano, which was then part of the Austro-Hungarian Empire and named Meran". Deny it. Come on. Show me some more mirror-free-climbing.

No wonder I removed that, your "solution" implied a factual wrong statement, namely that Meran isn't called Meran anymore. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:03, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

I like Meran/Merano. Here in Switzerland we have an analogous case for Biel/Bienne, an originally German speaking town which became bilingual due to the massive immigration of French-speaking workers in the clock industry from the Bernese Jura. Alex2006 (talk) 13:52, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

But the page you're talking about is Biel/Bienne. Whilst the page we're talking about is Merano not Meran/Merano. Biel redirects to Biel/Bienne; Bienne redirects to Biel/Bienne: that's the consensus reached in Talk:Biel/Bienne. Meran redirects to Merano, that's the consensus reached in Talk:Merano. As I've repeated you're all free to go to Merano talk page and make your proposal for a consensus change.

Uffa...

• One more word, my Italian friend...

You're free to do it. I'll revert you. Because I'm not like you. I'm not ereasing every single Meran I'll find on en.wikipedia. Just reverting your wrong edits. The one who did that was the other IP, which isn't me. Anche se non mi credi.

• Regarding the stuff from...

If I was talking to someone else whom I didn't know well enough, I would think he had a comprehension deficit, which of course I'm sure you don't have. In the talk pages is clearly said that the forms "Merano" and "Bolzano" must be used. You say that it's not true before 1923. Nowhere is written such a thing. There's no need for a line where it's established that "Merano" and "Bolzano" must be called like that before 1923, because it was already been said that "Merano" and "Bolzano" must be called like that, period. Ti faccio un disegnino?

• Yes, I'm serious...

Oh my God... I quote from Königsberg: "This article is about the city before 1945. For after 1945, see Kaliningrad". I quote from Kaliningrad: "This article is about the city since 1945. For detailed history before 1945, see Königsberg". No comment. You've just given me one more reason to believe I'm right. If you want to use your personal criterion of naming South Tyrol towns, then create a Meran page about the town before 1923 (and maybe after 1961). Otherwise, the consensus is to call it Merano, period. Tu avere capito buono sì?

• I'm simply reverting your totally useless...

Why would my contributions be useless and yours useful? If there's no need to change a name, then why do you keep changing it? And you know that Merano and Bolzano are the standard names in en.wikipedia, so your contributions are not only useless but also less constructive than mine. I'm not even interested in finding every single German name of Italian towns in order to change it, maybe just a few, but what I want is to keep an eye on you. And you know why.

• About your last point...

Again: I'm not ereasing the German name everywhere, just there, you know, it seems to be so important to you, at least as important as asking an admin to block my previous IP which had never ever had anything to do with you before that one single edit... Now: Merano is the most used name in English, there's a consensus about using Merano instead of Meran, nowhere is written that it must be used Meran before 1923, and everybody is free to ask to change this convention. The way you act is the wrong one. You do exactly what I do, the difference is that I do it towards the preferred form so nobody can contest it. There's no way you're being right in this, da qualunque parte rigiri la frittata, main froint.~

Dear user behind the plethora of IPs: It's very simple. Please show me a piece of policy or guideline, which states, that it is forbidden to use Meran in a 1914-context. If you can't show me anything like that, the discussion is closed. You failed to make any useful contribution here. What follows, is a complete list of your edits:

• 1st edit: useless change from German-Italian town names to Italian-German town names
• 2nd edit: useless change from German-Italian town names to Italian-German town names
• 3rd edit: exchange of a German name with an Italian name (and that is an anachronism, as I explained on the talk page)
• 4th edit: exchange of a German name with an Italian name
• 5th edit: exchange of a German name with an Italian name
• 6th edit: exchange of a German name with an Italian name
• 7th edit: jumbling the German and Italian town names introducing a factually wrong implication (as I explained on the talk page)
• 8th edit: jumbling the German and Italian town names introducing a factually wrong implication

It's difficult for me to understand, what your goal is. But whatever it might be, please stop it now. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 09:57, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh my God! If you're an intelligent person in full possession of his mental faculties (and I have no doubts you are) why are you making me repeat the same things every time you reply? Now follow this reasoning, step by step:

• In Talk:Merano it's said: "Misplaced Pages naming convention states to use the most common name in English which is in fact Merano" "Bozen and Meran are most commonly called Bolzano and Merano in modern English, so we use those" "What the English speakers do is of course more relevant for the English language Misplaced Pages, so Merano is the correct solution". It's all right so far? Have you understood that these sentences are taken from there? Do you want to control by yourself I'm saying the truth? Well. Next step...
• The meaning of those sentences is that the name Merano must be preferred to Meran in this English encyclopedia. Do you agree with that? I don't mean wether you agree with the sentences or not, but wether you agree that the meaning of the senences is that or not. So, do you agree? If you do, it means that: you agree it's correct to use Merano instead of Meran (even if not always strongly necessary) while it's uncorrect or at least very inadvisable to change the name Merano to Meran; and that this conventions is valid "always". A-L-W-A-Y-S. Because, if this convention wasn't always valid, we should have read something like "Merano is the correct name to use in an English Wiki BUT not before 1923" or "EXCEPT for the 1914-period" or "ONLY after its name (already in use) became the offical name". So, do you agree with that meaning of the sentences is that or not?
• As the meaning of the sentences from the talk page IS that, your changing the name from Merano to Meran, and even removing the correct Merano from the 2 names solution, is wrong. Your behaviour is WRONG. Have you understood that? If you haven't, please restart reading from the beginning until you understand.
• Since I'm not like you, I've always told you that this hasn't to be perforce the only solution: you can go to Talk:Merano and make a proposal, such as creating 2 different pages, Merano and Meran, or to establish that the name Merano can only be used in a post-1945-context, even if this encyclopedia was created for XXI century English-speaking people who mostly know the town as Merano, or to invert the consensus and call the town Meran because there's 1,01% more German speakers than Italian speakers, you're free to do it. But until that moment, until you reach a new consensus, en.wikipedia consensus which you keep ignoring (and I don't know how many times I've said that) establishes that the name used must be Merano. "Merano is the correct solution". Period.

Oh, I see, you can't cite a policy which forbids the usage of Meran in 1914-contexts. Fine. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 17:10, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Oh, I see, you can't cite a policy which forbids the usage of Merano in 1914-contexts. Fine.

(id est: te l'ho detto, gira che ti rigira sempre lì s'arriva, non c'è modo che tu possa aver ragione a sostituire Merano con Meran, fine)

I think, you've heard now 3 different users. Your case couldn't convince neither zzuuzz (I take the view that the IP should do something more constructive) nor Alessandro57 (Since here we refer to a time prior to 1919, the name "Meran" is in this case appropriate.) nor me. How many more opinions do you want. 5? 8? 12? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 22:51, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Before dismantling your house of cards, let me ask you a question: why don't you and your admin friends make a consensus change request in Talk:Merano, where it's ESTABLISHED that the name we must use is "Merano" and no Wikipedian's mere opinion can go against such a consensus??? Answer me, please. This is the... 5th? 8th? 12th? I don't remember how many times I've already asked you. Maybe this time I'll be luck and shall receive an answer.

Oh, right, the dismantling... 1st: The IP editor is correct in linking directly to the article rather than via a redirect (ouch!) 2nd: it's your opinion, and I agree: in fact I'm also doing other constructive edits which have nothing to do with South Tyrol, as I've always done (ouch!!) 3rd: Personally I am still for keeping the status-quo, mainly because the German majority is weak, the usage of the two forms is almost 50 - 50 and the two forms practically coincide. Last but not least, this modus vivendi has worked fairly well until now. I know, what I am writing is not very encyclopedic, but in my job area we say "Never touch the running system" :-), and I think that the price that we should pay for this move would be an increase in edit warring. Cheers (ouch!!!) i.e.: so far, just one (1) person has agreed with your behaviour, and not in general but just regarding this single edit of yours. Unluckily, normally cases like this are dealt in a different way in this Wiki: born in Fiume (today Rijeka)/Born in Rijeka (back then still named Fiume and part of the Kingdom of Italy) (thanks for the hint) (by the way, what about my last quotes, that is "This article is about the city before 1945. For after 1945, see Kaliningrad" and "This article is about the city since 1945. For detailed history before 1945, see Königsberg"? I bet ignoring them and shifting attention to "language center" jokes is the best solution when you have no way to reply, isn't it?)!

Mhm, and since I've been dismantling myself, a semi-protection of the page has come into affect, in order to stop your edit warring with a plethora of IPs... The difference between Fiume and Meran is, that Fiume isn't called Fiume anymore, while Meran is still one of the town's official names. The wording Born in Merano (back then still named Meran and part of Austria-Hungary) would imply to readers, that the town isn't called Meran anymore, which is factually wrong. Still no policy in sight which forbids the usage of Meran in 1914-contexts? --Mai-Sachme (talk) 13:05, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Still no policy in sight which forbids the usage of Merano in 1914-contexts?

(id est: te l'ho detto, gira che ti rigira sempre lì s'arriva, non c'è modo che tu possa aver ragione a sostituire Merano con Meran, fine)

No, certainly not. Neither Meran nor Merano are forbidden. The current text says Meran. I find that reasonable in an 1914-context, Alex finds that reasonable in an 1914-context, you're the only one here, who doesn't find that reasonable. Since you can't cite any policy giving weight to your argumentation, that means, that you don't have a mandate to change the article text unilaterally. Case closed. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:41, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

A little remark from my side:

• For long standing consensus (this is the nth time with n>10 which I observe these silly nationalistic disputes) and according to WP:COMMONNAME, Merano and Bolzano are the names commonly used at enwiki for this two cities in South-Tyrol;
• Since here we refer to a time prior to 1919, the name "Meran" is in this case appropriate.

Alex2006 (talk) 09:26, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

May be unrelated to the current discussion, just as a note: It seems to me , as if Meran has been by far the most common English name of the town. Since 1945 both names are almost equally used, so given the German language majority and by the standards of WP:NBZ the article should probably be moved... --Mai-Sachme (talk) 10:07, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Personally I am still for keeping the status-quo, mainly because the German majority is weak, the usage of the two forms is almost 50 - 50 and the two forms practically coincide. Meran/-o is really a "Grenzfall". :-) Last but not least, this modus vivendi has worked fairly well until now. I know, what I am writing is not very encyclopedic, but in my job area we say "Never touch the running system" :-), and I think that - provided that one can find the necessary consensus (and I strongly doubt it, since all the Italian nationalists would be against it) - the price that we should pay for this move would be an increase in edit warring. Cheers, Alex2006 (talk) 10:22, 30 November 2015 (UTC)

Third Opinion

A third opinion has been requested. I see lengthy discussion, but, because it is so lengthy, I don't see a concise question. What is the question? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:04, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: Thanks for your interest. The article states at the moment: Magnago was born in Meran. Various IPs try to change that into Merano. I find that inapposite for the following reasons:

• When Magnago was born, Meran was still part of the Austro-Hungarian empire. At those times, Meran had only one single official name, and that was Meran. The name Merano was only introduced in 1923. Therefore, writing Merano in an 1914-context is an anachronism. Immanuel Kant's birthplace was Königsberg, Umberto D'Ancona's was Fiume, and so on: It seems to be good Misplaced Pages practice to avoid anachronisms.
• Nowadays, both Meran and Merano are official and both are used in English language. Per WP:NOTBROKEN there is no need for exchanging one name with another.

Generally, I find the IPs' behaviour tremendously unreasonable, since their one and only interest consists in the naming dispute, brought forward with continued edit warring that made a semi-protection of the page necessary. --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:14, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

How many editors are involved in this dispute, anyway? I see two named editors and an IP. Is one of the named editors also editing logged out, or is this a dispute between three editors? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:20, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

It is mainly a dispute between me and an editor using a plethora of IPs (here you can find a list of some of the involved IPs, here a full list of the IPs' "contribution" to the article). --Mai-Sachme (talk) 16:29, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

@Robert McClenon: The question is: have we got to use the consensus name (Merano) or the other one (Meran)? My opinion is to use the consensus name, which is the most common in English (this is an English encyclopedia). The user who made the requests is German-speaking and wants to use Meran. He argues that the Italian name mustn't be used because in that year Merano was not yet the official name although already used. I replied that: in Talk:Merano was established to use Merano, not to use Merano only after it became the official name of the town; if we do what he wants, this would mean changing all Italian towns names according to the period they're referred to, because Italy was born in 1861 and before that year the official languages were a lot, from Latin to dialects, from ancient Italian to foreign conquerors' languages; he can make a request for a consensus change in Merano talk page, but he kept ignoring it, saying that there's written nowhere that Meran can't be used for that period, in fact it's just written that Merano must be used in place of Meran, nowhere is written that there's an exception for such period; I proposed to use both names, as it's already being done for other towns in en.wikipedia, but he refused and removed the Italian name which was next to the German name. That's all. Consensus version of the encyclopedia vs. secondary name in the encyclopedia. To answer your last question, the editors are Mai-Sachme and me (my IP always starts with 151.20.0-1-2-3), but the first edit was done by a friend of mine, and if you like I can ask him to come here discussing too.

That's a third opinion. I will be removing the third opinion request. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:40, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me chip in here: I assume I am the only editor actually from Meran/Merano... there is a consensus on wikipedia to use a city's name as it was used when a person was born: hence Rudyard Kipling was born in Bombay, as was Salman Rushdie and Zubin Mehta. Bombay was renamed in 1995 to Mumbai, but the consensus is to keep Bombay for the people born before that. Same goes for Beijing. Sometimes people put (now named xyz) behind the old name. In that context I suggest to stick with Meran for the Magnago article. noclador (talk) 17:13, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

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