Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 02:34, 16 August 2006

I changed the climate section to reflect the more insane nature of the weather in Memphis, which I believe every person who wants to move or visit should know about before hand. Also removed the description of the climate as humid subtropical, which is a myth spread by 1980s social studies books, and misleading to gardners. I know it's damn hot most of the year, but those sneaky winters are enough to prevent it from being subtropical, as is evident in the natural vegetation of the area, which is strictly temperate deciduous. Officially, a subtropical climate cannot freeze regularly.

I removed:

Burke's Book Store - Found at 1719 Poplar and Evergreen, this dog friendly, cozy store is staffed by a small, yet knowledgeable group of people. If you can’t find what you are looking for, someone would be happy to order it for you or redirect you to a better source. But, it is hard to leave empty handed with the store’s quirky selection of comics to civil war biographies.

The Wall of Graffiti at the Wild Things/Inz and Outz - 553 South Cooper St. The two stores are a gay/lesbian/straight friendly store and a neo-hippie paraphernalia store respectively. But, it is the wall along the parking lot that always provides plenty of aesthetic stimulation. One of the few places in Memphis to find vibrant graffiti, it never stagnates. Fresh images are added often.

Because it does not adhere to a NPOV. I don't think a listing of interesting places to visit in Memphis is a bad thing, but this is not the way to do it. It should be explained why these places are listed (i.e. biggest book store in Memphis, oldest whatever in the area, etc). This reads like advertising and shouldn't be here. Tuf-Kat 06:44, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

True, perhaps it should be put under Tourism. It does seem like advertising, yet huge cities such as New York advertise sites that run the gamut from stores to museums to parks. Just 'cause it has the same status as F.A.O. Shwartz doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned if it is relevant to the city. I must mention that I just discovered this site yesterday, so am still learning protocol. - Unifex

No problem, as it's not a big mistake. The issue is simply that this is one person's opinion and could be totally idiosyncratic. For example, I may believe that Burke's

• Employs large numbers of people
• The aforementioned people are not knowledgeable
• And are rude and unhelpful as well
• It's easy to leave the store without buying anything
• Because they have a limited selection

Neither your opinion nor my hypothetical one are verifiable. It can't even be proven that you really feel this way (you could be working for these companies). In any case, opinions like this need to be attributed to the people who believe them, and who must themselves be notable in some way (i.e. probably not you and definitely not I). Perhaps the Memphis Chamber of Commerce or tourism board maintains a list of interesting sites to visit, for example, or maybe a couple places are mentioned in most travel guides, or appeared on Insomniac with Dave Attell or something. These would be valid inclusions, but your (or my) opinions on the subject are not noteworthy or encyclopedic. Tuf-Kat 07:00, Dec 4, 2003 (UTC)

The Arts

I removed Isaac Hayes as he was mentioned twice in the same paragraph. Kenrus

Shelby Farms

why is there nothing mentioned about this massive park and the dont split shelby farms movement. I think we need some sort of statement about that park and/or a whole new article on the park. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barcode (talk • contribs) .

• I agree, there certainly needs to be something on Misplaced Pages about Shelby Farms. Not that I'm an expert on the subject, but I think it must be extremely rare for a large city to have a such a massive greenspace within its borders. I would be fine with either an article devoted exclusively to Shelby Farms, an explanation of what it is in this article, or both. - Jersyko talk 23:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

sections/suburbs

I think we need to reorginize this. Do we want to name each and every individidual neighborhood in this area: example: Victorian village which is debatably midtown/downtown and *The Village, East Memphis which is part of East Memphis.

I think we should stick to massive neighboorhoods that people refer to that part of town as. For example: even though Cordova has Countrywood, Berryhill, and several other subdivisions, many people still refer to it as Cordova. ditto for Whitehaven. same with Downtown memphis, midtown, Orange Mound etc. You can still make an article on the neighboorhoods but i think their should be a heirarchy of the links. We can put East Memphis on the memphis page, and when you get on the East Memphis Article there can be another list of the neighborhood encompassing East Memphis. same can go for Cordova, Germantown and whatever. I think this will clean that section of the Memphis article up a little bitBarcode 15:06, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

The sections do need a lot of cleanup ;) IMHO Orange_Mound,_Memphis is the only decently written article. mrh 04:14, 6 May 2006 (UTC)

Memphis Riots not mentioned

Shortly after the Civil War there was a major race riot in Memphis. I will research it a bit and try to update the article.

There was also a large riot where KKK members marched on MLK's birthday (or assaination?). Also on a somewhat related note is the mention of Forester (KKK founder) and problems with giving respect to a brilliant Civil War general but who created the fraternity which would turn into one of the largest hate groups in American history. But I dont know how worthy that is to mention.

Corrupt Mayor

What is this about the mayor being the most corrupt in America? Doesn't sound like a statement rooted in fact, more like an opinion...Should that be taken out?

Nicknames, image sizes, and so on.

The nickname section of city infoboxes is usually reserved for the more recognized nicknames of that city, so I removed a handful of the more obscure or less common ones. Many, many cities are referred to by their residents by the city's first initial or the first part of it's name followed by -town (Take 'nap-town' for Annapolis, MD for an amusing example,) and frequently by their area codes as well. There's no need to add every single nickname used for a given city - I think two is enough. New York City only has its primary nick, "The Big Apple" listed, even though it has several others. -- Vary | Talk 23:13, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Thanks to Jersyko for removing the unfree maps and resizing some of the bigger images. Chris2008 , I'd appreciate if you'd please discuss the disputed changes here with us so we can come to a consensus about what's the best format to use. I'm leaving the nicknames in for the time being to avoid an edit war, but it seems to me they really do not belong in the infobox. The infobox is a kind of quick reference for facts on the city, and an alternate name that a non-resident is unlikely to ever encounter is not useful there. Please do reply and let us know why you think the larger images and inclusion of the added nicks are important. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 05:20, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

• In order to build consensus, I would like to second all of Vary's comments regarding nicknames and images. - Jersyko talk 21:16, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree, most of the nicknames in question do not really belong in the infobox as nicknames. Some city articles have referred to the airport code, the area code, and a few other abbreviations as colloquialisms, usually referred to in the introductory paragraph (see Albuquerque, New Mexico or Richmond, Virginia as examples). But I think it's best to keep the nicknames list in the infobox pretty simple. Dr. Cash 23:11, 14 January 2006 (UTC)

Nicknames

Memphis nickname is not star of the southwest or whatever else is on there. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Chris2008 (talk • contribs) .

• You're right. I apologize for reverting your change in its entirety, I will try to pay more attention next time. However, I have removed some of the nicknames you have added, per the comments in the above section of this talk page. - Jersyko talk 04:10, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Pictures

I would like to add pictures of the hernando desoto bridge and a skyline picute. When you first go to the page it should be a picture of the skyline of memphis, tennessee like every other major city has a picture of there skyline. There shouldn't be a picture of Beale St. when you first go to the page. It should go under Other Points of Interest. user:chris2008

• While the pictures of the bridge is admittedly nice, it and all other pictures taken from this website are not distributed under a free license. In fact, the website says "Downloads by others than the media or tour operators, if not permitted in writing by Tennessee Tourism, are illegal." Tennessee Tourism, despite the deceptive title of the page, is a private company, not a state department of Tennessee. Thus, use of the pictures, and any others from this website, on Misplaced Pages is copyright infringement (of course we still have a fair use claim . . . but better not to use that if we can avoid it). I do agree, however, that the Memphis skyline would be a better picture for the infobox, provided that a free license picture can be found. - Jersyko talk 23:22, 3 February 2006 (UTC)

• I did not get the picture of the new bridge during the day from that website so we still should beable to see that one. user:chris2008

Ive got some better pictures of the bridges that I took. I'll replace the two that are currently there in a few days. Barcode 16:53, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Saks picture

This article generally needs a LOT of cleanup work. While I think it is appropriate to mention David Saks in this article, this should not be done in the introductory paragraph (along with the massive list of musicians), but later in the article. That being the case, there *certainly* doesn't need to be a low-quality (as in, blurry, poorly white balanced, low resolution) picture in the intro. I will not remove the picture for now, as doing so would be in violation of the three revert rule, but I think it might be a good idea to do so . . . - Jersyko talk 03:46, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• I've done a little research on David Saks. This is his homepage. There is at least some corroboration that he wrote one of the "official songs of Memphis" (of which there appear to be several). There is not, however, much evidence of Mr. Saks' involvement in the Memphis community to such an extent that he warrants a mention in the intro to the article. I will not go further in my suggestions in this regard, but merely present the evidence for the perusal of others. - Jersyko talk 04:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to think we don't need a pic of Saks in this article at all. He's only mentioned breifly, and there aren't pictures of any of the other artists mentioned in the article. A picture of him would belong in his own article.

I agree on the intro; it's way too long, and most of the info on local artists can probably go under 'culture' or under a seperate heading (say, 'Local Artists'?) All we really need is the first paragraph, as is, and maybe a second one referencing the city's musical heritage?

Also, while the new picture in the citybox is an inprovement over the Beale Street one, I think the one that was in there up until mid-January or so is better. I'm not sure why it was moved, (it's now under 'Geography and Climate') but swaping it with the one that's in the citybox now might be a good idea. The code specifically requests a skyline, and the current image doesn't quite fit that description. Some of the other images in the article could use some adjusting, too. -- Vary | Talk 06:16, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

On the subject of cleanup, I think the next thing that should be tackled is the list of sections and suburbs. Should that maybe be broght in line with the style used in the state boxes, as at the bottom of the article? Putting the list on a few lines, rather than giving each item its own line, would go a long way towards making the article look neater. It can also probably go nearer to the bottom, I would think. -- 06:21, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not at all sure about my placement of the list of entertainers from the intro, but I know it didn't belong where it was. I hope someone else can think of a better place to put it. -- Vary | Talk 06:37, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I removed the picture because: 1) he is mentioned only briefly in the article, 2) he is not noteworthy enough (most people do not think of him when you mention "memphis"), and 3) considering all the important people in Memphis' history, such as Elvis and Martin Luther King, Jr., and considering their pictures are not in the article, then it is difficult to justify Saks' picture. If there is a Saks article, then that is where the picture would belong. - Dozenist talk 13:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. If we're going to have a picture of an artist, it should be someone along the lines of Elvis, Arethra Franklin, Jonny Cash, or B.B. King. -- Vary | Talk 17:33, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

• There is no mention of David Saks on the Commercial Appeal's website. A google search of "David Saks" and the word "Memphis" reveals: (1) his homepage, (2) links to realtor websites, and (3) links to web portals. Again, I'm only presenting this information for other editors to consider. I will not take any action in regard to Saks in this article or the article about Mr. Saks that was recently written ( this is why). - Jersyko talk 17:35, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Official Song

I can't find any reference to 'In Memphis' being an official song of the city, just 'One Last Bridge'. I'm going to go ahead and remove the other song pending confirmation of its status. If this was an 'Official Resolution' you'd think there would be some record of it somewhere. Mr. Saks's own web page doesn't even mention either song, at least as far as I can tell. If we don't get better confirmation of the status of "One Last Bridge" then the myspace account of a nn band, I'd say we should take that one out, too. -- Vary | Talk 17:59, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Okay, I did find the reference on his web site, claiming both songs as Official Songs, but I had to use google to find it - the site is a mess. "In Memphis" is too common a phrase for a google test to yield accurate results, but a search for 'Saks "One Last Bridge"' gets two hits, the aforementioned page on Saks's web site, and this article. Not a good sign for notability. -- Vary | Talk 18:28, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

As there has still been no evidence presented that "In Memphis" was ever even recorded, I've re-removed that song, and added the name of the artist who performed "One Last Bridge." If anyone can verify that "In Memphis" is in fact a co-official song of Memphis, please do put it back in. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 02:12, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

There most certainly is evidence of David Saks and his song "One Last Bridge" in The Commercial Appeal. You appear to be too hasty in removing Mr. Saks's name from the song "One Last Brisge". What a pity! Please see the following as proof:

No one has attempted to 'remove Mr. Saks's name from the song.' I've removed the text of the article you cited and replaced it with a web link, (which I'd like to add was not easy to find even when I knew where to look!) as the text is copyrighted and can't be reproduced here. It looks better on the web site, anyway. In future, please provide links rather than pasting content into wikipedia. Thanks.

I have to note that the article refers to One Last Bridge not simply as Memphis's official song, but as its "official song of 1990." As such, I'm not sure it even belongs in the article. What about the official songs of 1991-2006? , For the time being, though, I'm just going to update the article to include this new information. -- Vary | Talk 07:08, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

I vote to remove the Song of 1990 stuff... or make another article that states Offical songs of memphis. --Barcode 16:10, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

If you vote to remove "the song of 1990 stuff" then surely you'll vote to remove the information regarding New orleans and the Voodoo Music experience from annual events in Memphis as this was a one time event. No one knows if it will be annual as is stated in the article. So as you can see, this is not completely accurate being listed under Annual Events..... - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

You're quite right, at least in regard to the "annual" status of Voodoo in Memphis. Fixed, in that regard. I disagree, however, that it doesn't warrant a mention in this article, as the location of the event for 2005 received a decent amount of media coverage, quite a bit here in Memphis, and was attended by thousands of people. The New Orleans Saints, for example, are mentioned in the New York Giants article for a similar reason. - Jersyko talk 20:50, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

yes. but somewhere it needs to be noted that the Voodoo whatever music thing happened in memphis this year. perhaps in another article —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barcode (talk • contribs) .

You're correct. The Voodoo music thing should be mentioned in a New Orleans article and not Memphis since it surely belongs to and in New Orleans. - —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.70.152.126 (talk • contribs) .

"...it surely belongs to and in new orleans"? That sounds like a statement arguing an opinion. And all of us here, I am sure, value highly the issue of NPOV. Though the Voodoo fest was originally in New Orleans, the historic event of having it take place (partly) in Memphis with thousands of people attending is a good reason to have it mentioned in this article. At least for now. Perhaps I can be persuaded years from now when having a Voodoo fest in Memphis is a "blip" on the radar. Perhaps. Then again, we digress. The entire list of official songs of Memphis for every year is not something that should be listed in this article. A separate article could be created for such an endeavor, considering how easy it has been to track down this information. - Dozenist talk 00:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

I stand by my previous comment. The Voodoo Fest belongs in an article on New Orleans. The only reason that it was an "historic event" in Memphis was due sadly to Katrina and so many of the New Orleans musicians had been displaced by Katrina to Memphis. While it was inspiring that it attracted many people, Voodoo Fest only attracted thousands of people in Memphis because of the dire situation in New Orleans. The sooner that New Orleans can return to normal and claim all of Vooddoo Fest, the better. Memphis does not need to claim it too. Thoughts of Voodoo and Memphis? I think not! Official songs of Memphis written and composed by local musicians should be on the Memphis page. The information was not so difficult to track if you looked properly in "The Commerical Appeal". —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

I disagree. Someone researching Memphis today would be interested to learn how the city supported the people of New Orleans by hosting an even that is an important tradition for the city's residents when Katrina made holding the event in New Orleans impossible. Fifteen years from now the information might no longer be relevant, but that's the beauty of a wiki - old, outdated information can easily be removed by anyone.

I agree with Dozenist that, if a more complete list of the annually selected Official Songs of Memphis can be compiled, a separate article might be appropriate. Does anyone know what the current year's official song is, or if the honor is even still awarded annually? -- Vary | Talk 03:03, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

There doesn't appear to be any other mention of an "official song" of Memphis in the Commercial Appeal's archives, nor in the Memphis Flyer's (the city's only other somewhat widely read daily besides the Memphis Business Journal). In looking at the city council's actions for 2004 and 2005, I don't see anything about other adopted official songs. I suppose the only way to compile a list would be to trek to city hall and ask to look at the relevant records. - Jersyko talk 03:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Has anyone considered that Mr. Saks's song is the only Official Song of Memphis? "One Last Bridge" was proclaimed the Official Song in 1990 and deserves to be mentioned on the Memphis site. It is as relevant as Tallest Buildings. It doesn't make much sense that the Memphis City Council would proclaim an official song every year.

Regarding someone researching Memphis and learning that the city supported New Orleans with a Voodoo Fest, I don't think it would be of much interest as Voodoo Fest is too new to be considered a "tradition" even by the New Orleans natives. If Memphis were to host Jazz Fest or Mardi Gras, true New Orleans traditions, this would be noteworthy. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.248.228.85 (talk • contribs) .

Please sign your posts. You can do so with ~~~~. Regarding whether there is only one official song, well, the article in the commercial appeal makes it clear that it is only the official song of 1990. Thus, it stands to reason that there's at least a good chance that there are others, for other years. Additionally, the editor who originally added the information on Mr. Saks to the article also mentioned another song, titled "In Memphis," as an "official song of Memphis" (though this was not able to be confirmed through online research). There seems to be a decent amount of evidence that there is more than one song, but we certainly can't conclude one way or the other without looking at what the city council has done. - Jersyko talk 04:33, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh! Now we are getting somewhere. Mr. Saks had two songs proclaimed songs of the year by the Memphis City Council in 1990. How many other Memphis composers can claim this honor? Not many! He is the composer of "In Memphis" as well as "One Last Bridge". This is even more of a reason that he deserve to be on the Memphis page...--70.248.228.85 13:49, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out, however, this claim as to the second song was completely unverified, except on his homepage. It seems that you're arguing two different things at the same time: (1) "One Last Bridge" is the only official song of Memphis, and (2) there are multiple songs, two of which have been written by Mr. Saks, thus they should be mentioned in this article. These arguments are, of course, mutually exclusive. The safest course to take at this point is to not draw any premature conclusions 'as to the number of songs but to do further research with the city council to figure out exactly what the city's official songs are. If my schedule permits it, I will swing by city hall in the next couple weeks or so and see what I can find. - Jersyko talk 14:39, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

That would be a great idea. Because so far, there is very little reason to have him mentioned on the Memphis page as it is. I have been asking everyone I know that have lived here for a long time, none of which know this guy. If instead he is only really known in smaller circles in the Memphis music scene, then that is not enough of a reason to have his name in the article about Memphis. Tell me if I can help with going to the City Council, Jersyko. - Dozenist talk 16:16, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Memphis is a large city and asking everyone "you know" may not be the right people to ask. Mr. Saks was born in Memphis and has lived there all of his life. Checking with the Mempis City Council is a terrific idea. Once you verify that Mr. Saks is the recipient of two awards from the Memphis City Council for two songs of the year, then his name should remain on this site. He represents the city more than a mention of Voodoo Fest. Why not mention a Stones concert, they attracted thousands to Memphis as well.--70.248.228.85 16:58, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

You're mentioning him on the page because Memphis has "Official Songs of the Year" and he is the composer of these songs. In this case, it makes no difference who is familiar with Mr. Saks. This information is as interesting as any of the other categories that are listed under Memphis.--70.248.228.85 17:34, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

The Voodoo Music Experience is unquestionably notable and belongs in the Memphis article. The search string '"voodoo music experience" Memphis' yields 23,000 results. The search string '"david saks" memphis' yields 358. While an in-depth discussion of the event and its history would not belong on this page, the brief mention we have there now is appropriate.

He has had two songs - one verifiable and one unverifiable - that were made official songs of the year in Memphis. There has so far only been one source cited that would be considered authoritative under Misplaced Pages:Citing sources is from a small local paper, Commercial Appeal, and it is not an announcement of the award, but discusses the author and producer's disappointment that the song was not used in an advertising campaign for the city. I will wait to see the outcome of the AFD for the Saks page, to see if he is determined to be notable under WP:MUSIC, but if not, I would say that the reference should come out of the article. Again, if someone is able and willing to do the research to find out the rest of the songs that have been awarded this honor, and if it is an award that was given for a reasonable number of years, it might be appropriate to create a separate article listing these songs. This would be an ideal project for a Memphis resident with knowledge of the local music scene.

Again, it's not a good sign for notability when you can find only one reputable reference from a relatively minor publication. If Mr. Saks and his work are as well known in Memphis as the user who's advocating for keeping his article feels, it should be easy to provide links to more articles in commercial appeal and other local publications citing his notability as a musician and composer. (I repeat, links, please, as I'm not going to go digging out the link on my own again, and any copyrighted material that is pasted onto this or any other page will have to be removed per WP:Copyrights.) If any of this is unclear, please see the notability requirements linked to above. -- Vary | Talk 20:37, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

How many "hits" have the other categories, Tallest Buildings for example received? I'm sure they've not received the 23,0000 that you cite for "Voodoo Memphis nor the 348 that Mr. Saks has received. "Commercial Appeal", small, local newpaper? It is the oldest and only major newspaper in Memphis. It does not matter that Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis. What is notable is that his two songs "One Last Bridge" and "In Memphis" were cited by the Memphis City Council as Official Songs of Memphis. Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs. Official Songs of Memphis and Mr. Saks listed as the composer is as relevant and notable in the Memphis article as some of the other categories. I stand by my --207.70.152.126 22:52, 8 February 2006 (UTC)earlier statement that "Voodoo Experience" ranks up there with a Stones concert and is not pertinent to Memphis. The Stones site receives more than 23,000 hits and though they performed to thousands of people their concert is not listed on the Memphis site. Mr. Saks is a Memphian, the majority of the performers at the "Voodoo Fest" are from other cities.

Thankfully, we have more than just one person working on this article to try to get this straightened out. As it stands, we are now agreeing on things that would make Saks not notable for the Memphis article. For example, 1) "Most people are not familiar with the composers of songs", 2) "Mr. Saks's work is not well known in Memphis", and 3) There is not much sign of widespread acclaim of Mr. Saks as evident by the google search. The most important aspect of Mr. Saks is that he is the composer of one song that was the official song of Memphis in 1990 (The only thing verified so far, if I am up to date with the discussion). That being the case, it is still only noteworthy if it is the only song (or one of a very few) that is Memphis' official song. If there are many songs, then "One Last Bridge" is not as noteworthy. Thankfully, we have access to city hall, and we will be able to gather that information soon. Concerning everything else mentioned here, not only do most people in Memphis recognize the names of Voodoo Fest and Clark Tower, the majority of them would also say those things are important to Memphis--- more important than one of many Stones concerts occuring in any number of cities. Any argument otherwise stands against the majority of views here. - Dozenist talk 14:40, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

The majority of viewers here did not know where to find Mr. Saks's name mentioned in the Commercial Appeal. It had to be shown to them. Many Memphians recognize the name "Mr. Bingle", which is also important to many Memphians, but I don't see him mentioned. Like a Stones concert, "Voodoo Fest" is also being held in "any number of cities", New Orleans. It does still count as a city, doesn't it? I stand by my previous comments--70.248.228.85 16:23, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

Another article has been located in the archives of The Commercial Appeal, dated November 26, 1992, by Peggy McKenzie. This article is titled "Passion is Stamped In Collector's Hobby". In addition ti stamp collecting, the article states that Mr. Saks is the recipient from the Memphis City Council for two of his songs, one in 1990 and one in 1991. After further research, the two songs in question, "One Last Bridge" was named the Official Song on May 22, 1990 and the other song, "In Memphis" received this prestigious award on May 24, 1991. After checking with Pamela Crislip, Assistant City Administrator, for the Memphis City Council, no other songs have received this award in the fourteen years that she has been working for the City of Memphis.--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)--70.248.228.85 00:48, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

That's useful information, thanks for providing it. Did you happen to ask about pre-1990 songs? - Jersyko talk 00:50, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

I'd appreciate a link to the article, please. For info on adding links to Misplaced Pages, please see Misplaced Pages:How to edit a page. Thanks -- Vary | Talk 00:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

You're welcome. Ms. Crislip stated that she has been working for the City of Memphis since 1992, and was not aware that the City Council had named official songs in the fourteen years that she has held in this position. I'm awaiting a response for pre-1990. I'll try to send you the link for the above article. --70.248.228.85 01:54, 10 February 2006 (UTC)

We're still waiting for that source. Unsourced information in an article may be challenged and removed. Additionally, Misplaced Pages:Notability (songs) seems to provide some guidance here. Thus, the source must, at the very least, prove the content of the information asserted, but it should also prove the notability of the information asserted. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 17:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm surprised this stayed in the article as long as it did; I thought it had been removed. Even if this were credibly sourced, it wouldn't be notable enough for inclusion. And the personal attacks from the anon who wants the reference in are not helping the song's case. -- Vary | Talk 20:52, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Neighborhoods

The listing of neighborhoods is seriously messed up! North Memphis and Raliegh are two separate neighborhoods, with Raliegh lying several miles to the east of North Memphis. Cordova is not anywhere near "southeast Memphis." Cordova is, in fact, the furthest east section of Memphis, lying neither north nor south of town, but instead along Germantown Parkway between the town of Germantown and US-64. Southeast Memphis is called Hickory Hill and is the area served by TN-385 (Nonconnah/Bill Morris Parkway). I don't really know the computer language necessary to edit the page, so if somebody could do this for me, I'd appreciate it.

Photo of St Judes

The photo of St Judes on this page is being claimed fair use. However the justification on the fair use tag being used states that the image is only fair use "in the absence of free images that could serve such a purpose". It should be a relatively easy task for a wikipedian in the Memphis area to go and get a photo of the hospital, meaning that the fair use in this case isn't really justified. JeremyA 00:44, 3 April 2006 (UTC)

Memphis Metro

I am thinking of creating an article about Memphis Metropolitan area, similer to Atlanta metropolitan area. this is to remove some clutter on this article. primarily the suburbs, and districts of memphis, which are poorly organized and in some cases just wrong. any thoughts anyone? Barcode 16:16, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Last week I posted a link on this site and no longer than a couple hours later it was taken off the site. I understand why the link was removed because of the dangers of spam, but I would like to try to repost my link http://memphis.tennessee.com/ I have some very useful information on Memphis that would benefit this website and the link I am posting goes to a very informative site in just about anything in Memphis, TN. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Problems in Memphis

The article looks terrific but omits all facts that would deemed as derogatory toward Memphis. Such as: Memphis ranks number one in the nation for infant mortality. Memphis ranks number one in the nation for child pedestrian deaths. Memphis ranks forth in the nation for high crime, and a few others.

I'll add this section later this week. If anyone has WP:OWN sentiments, please speak your mind now. Any advice on a section title and content would be appreciated. Thanks. Scribner 19:47, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps you could use the Detroit, Michigan article as a guide in one respect: there's a subsection titled "Crime." Perhaps it could be a subsection of a subsection in this article, maybe under "people and culture." The other information should probably be noted in pre-existing subsections of the "people and culture" section, perhaps under "demographics." · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 19:56, 28 June 2006 (UTC)

In the Matter of Memphis Musician David Saks

To User Jersyko:

Specific sources are noted, verified and proven in the discussion. 

The addition to the article has been in place for nearly a year until it was flagged because an unknown user with an IP in Virginia deleted it. You apparently have forgotten the condescensions you demonstrated in February of this year in the rather lengthy, time consuming and unnecessary bantering about of this matter that was proven with reliable resources, including the documents provided by Ms. Crislip, the secretary of the Memphis City Council. Again, rather than resort to the hero-worshipped Google for information, try http://search.msn.com and type in: "David Saks" Memphis. You might find the validation your seeking without the despair of continually resorting to obsessive-compulsive deletion of the addition. It's rather childish behavior at this stage. Call the Memphis City Council at area code 901-576-6815. They'll be glad to verify it for you. Song notability and the history of Memphis are two different entities. The Official Song of Finger, Tennessee isn't notable although it is a vital part of the history of Finger and deserves as much recognition in the written history of that community as the native flower, flag or bird. There are many facts about Memphis that aren't notable or nationally recognizable but are indigenous to the awareness of it's citizens, as the case of the song of Finger. Your argument is cockeyed lending itself to to an incongruous demonstration of logic, almost ludicrous inviting ridicule. It's a waste of time arguing with you, as I said earlier this year. I suggest you and Vary try using "Wikipediatri", more suitable venue for immaturity.66.239.212.90 20:48, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Anon, please don't make personal attacks. We're here to discus the article, not your opinion of me and Jersyko. You're in violation of the three revert rule. Please stop reverting the article, and please keep it civil. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 21:08, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

You have the burden to prove verifiability per WP:V. Note that, in our discussion above, I said the information you allegedly received from the Council secretary is "interesting," I never agreed that it is sufficient as a source. WP:V requires that a source be published. I'm asking for a published source that can be added as a reference in the article text itself, and you haven't added that reference in the article. Secondly, Misplaced Pages:Notability (songs) indicates that the source *should* also prove the song's notability for it to warrant inclusion. If all it takes is a msn search to find such a reliable source, well, you should have no trouble finding one and adding it to the article, right? Cut the personal atacks; they are a blockable offense. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 21:13, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The proof was presented in February of this year. Mr.Saks' webpages and the articles in the Commercial Appeal have been referenced and verified. It doesn't surprise me that you resort to to whistle blowing and small handbook rules and regulation citation to justify lackey, sycophantic crawling. Refer to the comment from the user in New Orleans who provided the links to the articles by Peggey McKenzie in the Commercial Appeal about Mr. Saks. No one ever said anything about adding a reference in the article text, and if it had been it probably would have been deleted by vandals ! Since your the penultimate authority, Jersyko, why don't you attest your merit and assist the validation process ? Perhaps you'll become a notable person one day because you were capable of demonstrating that you were motivated by consideration, understanding and generosity. 66.239.212.55 01:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

You're asking me to provide a source for information you, and only you, want in the article. No thanks. Please provide the links if you want to have further discussion about whether the sourced material warrants inclusion. Right now, we don't even have a source to put in the article to verify the information per the verifiability policy. If we have them, we can go on to a discussion of notability, though I'm skeptical that it will warrant inclusion unless the sources are convincing otherwise. Finally, Saks' webpage is by no means a reliable source; personal webpages are mentioned explicitly. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 02:38, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Jersyko, you've forgotten that others requested the inclusion of this information in the article and provided ample proof, per the submission of the many and varied entires in the discussion above, meeting the the verifiability policy and providing reliable source nearly a year ago. Take the time from your busy editing schedule to review the entire discussion. Otherwise, it's beginning to appear that your repetitive deletion of the entry is being made with prejudice. All of the links were provided and it's not up to me to prove this to you if the data is to extensive for your review. We're waiting for your next handbook referral that exempts you from the process of reexamination and places the burden of reaffirmation elsewhere, justifying your compulsion to delete the information. 'If every user of Misplaced Pages decided to delete an article or information contained within because they wanted every detail of the entry validated at each viewing to suit their need to prove by example, explanation or source, Misplaced Pages would be reduced to a burned out cinder.' Leave the article alone; although whistleblowing appears likely because the needs of one haven't been acquiesced. We'll keep adding the entry while you keep searching for truth. Call the Memphis City Council at area code 901-576-6815 and ask for Ms. Crislip as she has the truth waiting for your personal review, including information about Mr.Saks' notability to the good citizens of the City of Good Abode. It might interest you that Mr.Saks was the featured guest artist on Sirius Satellite Radio Channel 13, the Elvis Channel, last week. In addition to being the composer of the '"Official Songs of Memphis"', Mr. Saks was at Elvis' home, Graceland, the day Elvis passed away, visiting. Elvis Presley was found dead a few minutes after Mr.Saks left Graceland.66.239.212.37 15:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid that the one passing reference to the song in an article on another subject that was provided in February does not constitute 'ample proof.' Even if the song could be verified as having been named the official song of 1990, that would not make it notable enough for inclusion, because there's no context for the claim, no reference to it on the city council web site, and no articles available announcing the event itself (that is, there's no article in, for example, 'Commercial Appeal' announcing that the song was named the official song of 1990.) Please see Talk:Memphis,_Tennessee#Official_Song for the relevant discussion.

The other information you've provided about Mr. Saks has nothing to do with the song's notability or verifiability.

Please stop reverting this article against consensus. You have reverted six times in the past 24 hours. Please see WP:3RR for a thorough explanation of the rule and its purpose. It would be helpful if you would log in when editing Misplaced Pages, as you have a non-static IP, and every time it changes, so does the location of your talk page. This makes it difficult for other editors to contact you directly, as you may miss messages that were left on the talk pages of IPs that are no longer assigned to you. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 15:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for confirming your ignorance in the matter, Vary. The article proclaiming the city council resolution was printed in The Commercial Appeal on Thursday, May 24th, 1990 under the section "Local Government Briefs" in an article entitled "Council Approves 1990 Song".Take a moment from your busy cycle of deletion and censorship as a Misplaced Pages Cop to indicate when the twenty four hour cycle begins and ends. Once you've exhausted your right to remove it three times it'll be tough for you for the remainder of the day until the next twenty-four hour period returns allowing you a refreshed period of deletion privileges. Until then, continue to tag team with your cronies. Otherwise we'll wait until tomorrow to return the item to it's rightful place in the wake of your insignificant perusal. Incidentally, this isn't a personal attack on you, Vary, although you seem to be rather clueless and somewhat rashly impulsive. Additionally, I'm not interested in speaking with you directly.66.239.212.101 17:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a link to that reference? Does the reference demonstrate notability per Misplaced Pages:Notability (songs)? And that was most definitely a despicable personal attack on Vary. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 17:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

In answer to your question about the 3RR: as stated in the policy I linked to and requested you read, the three revert rule extends to any given 24 hour period. Additionally, the policy states:

(The 3RR) does not grant users an inalienable right to three reverts every 24 hours or endorse reverts as an editing technique. Persistent reversion remains strongly discouraged and is unlikely to constitute working properly with others. The fact that users may be blocked for excessive reverting does not necessarily mean that they will be blocked. Equally, reverting fewer than four times may result in a block depending on context.

Your statement of your intention to continue to add the line to the article against consensus and without providing evidence of notability per Misplaced Pages:Notability (songs) is a violation of policy, just as much as your excessive reverts and personal attacks. -- Vary | Talk 17:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Send the Commercial Appeal a couple of bucks for the reprint like we did, Jersyko. And whine to someone else about it. What's more despicable than what you believe a personal attack on Vary is your blatant display of ignorance, reprehensible and unworthy of recognition. You don't sound like a friendly individual, nor helpful because of your persistent deletion of the addition, which has long since been verified. Perhaps information pertaining to this matter was removed in similar fashion by one of your sidekicks. The attacks have been narrowed and persistent by the same three, Jersyko, Dozenist and Vary, marked by a narrow focus on a display of learning, especially its trivial aspects. Regrettfully, and respectfully, you bore me, Jersyko. I'm speaking honestly and not with malice. I hope Mr. Saks never reads any of this. Mr. Saks is a kind, thoughtful individual that wouldn't want any part of this argument. This has been an effort by Mr.Saks' friends in Memphis to help him gain a small bit of recognition because of his contributions to the arts. Jersyko, your an embarrassing, obnoxious despot, another pseudo-WikiCop hell bent on having your way by tiresome attrition, as much Anon as I am with your cute user name. Again, this is my personal observation. The way you interpret it is your business. We'll young man, it's not going away, now, is it ? Maybe your cronie, the dentist Dozenist has a prescription, because, as a dentist, he might know how to treat bad breath, which is all we've been getting from you and the other two Wiki-Cops with your ridiculous, repetitive cry for proof, finger-pointing, and Wiki rules citation. One thing's for sure, you'll never forget David Saks when it's all said and done. Maybe, if you call him, he might speak with you, like I did. He's a great person, and, I might add, being a woman, that he's very handsome, very athletic and continues to run in spite of his recent eye surgery. I've never heard anyone play the piano like he does and can safely say I never will. His skill is nothing short of astonishing. I've had the privilege of seeing him at the Peabody Hotel, the Overton Park Shell, have seen and heard him in recordings and on television and radio. Sorry you haven't had the same privilege. Otherwise, you might end your demonstration of compulsive deletion. I noticed, above, that the user from New Orleans had issues with your ignorance of the matter in February, in addition to your persistent deletion. Get it together, Jersyko, Mr.Saks made musical history, and get over it. You might even take the time to search through his music manuscripts that are deposited in the Library of Congress. You can see the links to them on his terrific web site. Your a person, as Vary, who pays more attention to formal rules than they merit because of the evidence already clearly in view. I'm not your cyber-laser cane. Open your eyes and read the evidence. Mr. Saks is notable, and modest, his song is notable, his community recognizes him as notable.66.239.212.68 23:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Addendum...'Quote Jersyko: "While I think it is appropriate to mention David Saks in this article, this should not be done in the introductory paragraph (along with the massive list of musicians), but later in the article..."' under Saks Picture February 4, 2006.66.239.212.64 23:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

First, stop the personal attacks. Now. Thank you.

Second, the quote you provided was the first mention of Mr. Saks on this talk page. Not to put words in Jersyko's mouth, but at that time, the article stated that Saks wrote the official song of Memphis, rather than the official song of 1990. If that had been true, then it might belong in the article. But, as Jersyko later discovered and referenced in his subsequent comments, it's the official song of a single year. And the fact that it is so difficult to find any evidence online that the song was even named the official song of 1990, beyond Myspace and Mr. Saks's web site, does not speak well for the song's notability.

Third, above you say:

This has been an effort by Mr.Saks' friends in Memphis to help him gain a small bit of recognition because of his contributions to the arts.

Misplaced Pages is not a place to gain recognition. If someone or something needs to be on Misplaced Pages to gain recognition, it doesn't belong on Misplaced Pages yet. I'm sure Mr. Saks is a very nice person, but his personality, his appearance, and his athleticism are not the issue here, and neither is your opinion of his musical ability. The former are not qualifications for notability, and the latter is original research.

And I'm going to ask you once again to stick to the subject of the article. It's very difficult to have a discussion with you when I have to wade through dozens of personal attacks on myself and other editors just to find the actual point you are trying to make. Remove the personal attacks, and your above comment is less than half as long and much more readable. Ad hominum attacks won't win you any arguments here or anywhere else. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 01:19, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Vary is quite correct regarding my first comment on Saks; I, assuming good faith, presumed that the edit adding Saks' song as Memphis' "official song" (with no qualification) was truthful and correct, even without a reference. Later evidence disproved my original assumption, which makes my original comment irrelevant. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 01:40, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Did you mean Ad Hominem, Vary, appealing to personal considerations (rather than to fact or reason)? My attempt at polite personal observation is once again met with Wiki-Cop, automaton-like fashion; not surprsing for someone who responds in a mechanical or apathetic way, and who carries the dispostion to respond as the mouthpiece for the other tag-team members. Recognition is the state or quality of being recognized or acknowledged, coming to understand something clearly and distinctly; in this case David Saks. Is the inclusion in the article disregarded as an acknowledgement ? Are facts not acknowledgements ? Would a statement acknowledging something or someone not be considered a fact ? Is an acceptance (as of a claim) as true and valid not considered recognition ? What do you gain, if not recognition, by your reasoning ? Banishment, brush-off, non-acceptance, apostasy, censure, repudiation, rebuff, exclusion, reprobation ? Is this what you 'recognize' in the matter of Mr. Saks ?Shame....66.239.212.46 02:04, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Jersyko says: "(rv - this is ridiculous, there is still no source cited, and none has been provided on talk either.)" in his recent deletion. Is Jersyko completely uninformed? No other song has or will be recognized as an Official Song of Memphis according to the Memphis City Council Secretary, Ms. Crislip. 'Mr. Saks' musical contribution is, has been, and will be the only Official Song of Memphis'.66.239.212.46 02:18, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Ms. Crislip is not a published source. Note that none of us has ever called your personal character into question in any of our discussion, yet you persist in doing so, calling us all sorts of nasty things from "uninformed" to "apathetic" to "cronies". Consider for a moment that if that is the only argument you are left with in our discussions, you have irretrievably lost. Perhaps it's time to move on. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 04:15, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The Commercial Appeal is a published source and the reference to the article is noted. Sore Loser is more appropriate in your case, Jersyko, since you've demonstrated your inability to discern the reference. by virtue of your manifestly void cognitive content, which is the sum of what you've perceived, discovered, or learned about it.66.239.212.23 11:05, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

The Commercial Appeal does not confirm your assertion that 'One Last Bridge' is the only official song of Memphis, which you claimed was confirmed by Ms. Crislip. What about 'In Memphis?' That is, I believe, another song of Mr. Saks's that was supposed to have been named the official song of a different year, although it proved even harder to verify than 'One Last Bridge.'

If the song were the only official song of Memphis, as in the official song of 1990 and all years since, then there would be credible references calling it such. If it were the only official song of Memphis, you'd think there would be some mention of it somewhere on the city government's web pages. Even if no other song had ever been named the official song of a given year, then 'One Last Bridge' would still only be the official song of 1990.

The issue here is not that the song is not verifiable, but that it has had no major references in any article other than the relatively minor one which you've cited, which was unfortunately published just about a month before the start of the Commercial Appeal's online archive. One of the qualifications in WP:MUSIC calls for the subject to have been "featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc.)" If this song were a major part of Memphis culture or history, it would be cited elsewhere.

Please stop making personal attacks. Please keep your comments to the subject of the article. If we need to take this dispute to rfc, your attitude will not win you any points with the other editors who come here to comment on the issue. -- Vary | Talk 13:45, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are additional sources. More will follow as they become available. See The Hebrew Watchman, another weekly Memphis newspaper, Thursday, February 8, 1991, "City Council Honors Saks". Also, The Atlanta Constitution, article by Al Levine, "One Person in Memphis Hasn't Given Up", in the news section A-3, Tuesday, November 30, 1993. See also, The Commercial Appeal, Thursday, November 26, 1992, "Passion is Stamped on Collector's Hobby", by Peggy McKenzie. Whether or not the circulation size of the publication or length of the article meets with your approval doesn't matter, and is ludricous to presume that notability is merited by the quality of circulation. These are major publications with large circulation. You informed me of another matter of which you apparently felt the need to condescend,if I'm safe in assuming rather than lower yourself, of which I'm uncertain if you've made receptive or willing by action, attitude or belief to substantiate the claim as a helpful party at this stage, of which I'm still skeptical that: Mr. Saks' song "In Memphis" was adopted as another "Official Song of Memphis" in 1991. This fact was recorded in the Memphis City Council Archive on January 24th, 1991. These are modest awards that aren't fit for banner headlines, only modest recognition which is in keeping with the demeanor of the composer. On another note, your sensitivity to this discussion is disturbing and I suggest you take a break if you continue to engage in this forum. Perhaps your a bit paranoid, and it comes with the nature of a program like Misplaced Pages due to the fact that most all users are anon, whether you log in with a nick name or not. I see it doing you more harm than good, an impediment to your psychological wellness. I am in agreement with you, however: Vary said:'Even if no other song had ever been named the official song of a given year, then 'One Last Bridge' would still only be the official song of 1990.' You're correct ! Stop deleting the article. Edit it as you feel, however, leaving it in place. This isn't a game and I'm not interested in "winning points". I'm not trying to "win" anything. Substantiation of historical inadequacy is the nature of this negotiation, of which you desperately seek to undermine, with great urgency.66.239.212.34 16:49, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I am unable to find any of the articles you referenced online. Could you provide links if they are available? I think we've discussed, too, that the discussion is not about Saks' notability generally (this was already discussed at the Afd on Saks' article by the community at large), so the articles about his stamp collection aren't really doing anything to further the notability of his song. If there are no online links to the articles, can you tell us, based on your reading of the articles, whether they prove notability of the song per Misplaced Pages:Notability (songs), and, if so, how? I have requested semi-protection for this page, fyi. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 18:44, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

If you had taken the time to read the entire two page article about the stamp collection, mentioned in the discussions above and cited, which was a Thanksgiving Day tribute to Mr. Saks in the Commercial Appeal in 1992, you would have known of the references to the City Council Resolutions that were mentioned by Ms. McKenzie, i.e. quote Ms. Mckenzie pp.13, November 26, 1992, The Commercial Appeal, "He is also a musician and songwriter whose songs have won local awards, including City Council Songs of the Year in 1990 and 1991". What else has Mr. Saks won, Jersyko ? Perhaps you could enlighten us. You judge the book by the cover, Jersyko, and continue to demonstrate persistently shallow conclusions, non sequitur and insulting, somewhat assailing and unimpressive. If I were your English professor you'd get an F. Call the Wiki-Cops like you always do when your feathers get ruffled. Notability may take the form of a celebrity who is an inspiration to others, widely known and esteemed, worthy of notice. Mr. Saks meets this criterion, and he is the basis for comparison; a reference point against which other things can be evaluated. Must he be celebrated, having an illustrious past in your mind ? Must he be a luminary, another type of celebrity who is an inspiration to others ? Would you prefer lionization of Mr. Saks, assigning great social importance to his life and his work ? Or is there something redoubtable, enervating and challenging about this search for David Saks to you, Jersyko, and it inspires fear ? We're eagerly awaiting your next entry filled with great social redemption and importance in your search for truth, justice and the American way. Your Wiki contributions are a gift to mankind and have a profound impact on all who read them...not.66.239.212.85 23:34, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

'Tribute'? It looks more like a human interest story to me. If it were a tribute, his name would be in the headline. The reference in the stamp collection article doesn't help with WP:MUSIC because the songs are not the reason the article was written, the stamp collection is. The fact that this award is referenced in an unrelated article on Mr. Saks doesn't make it germane to an article on Memphis. If there were 'multiple, non-trivial' references in articles not about Mr. Saks's stamp collection or other non-music related activities, that would help the songs' notability. The references you've provided would make the songs appropriate for inclusion in an article on Mr. Saks, had the discussion in afd not already decided against including the article.

It has been explained to you repeatedly why this information is not appropriate for the article. You have been repeatedly asked not to resort to personal attacks during this discussion. It's not about 'ruffled feathers' or hurt feelings, it's about civility. Jersyko and I are managing to keep our tempers, and I'm sure you're able to do the same. Calling us names will not keep your preferred version of the article in place.

Also, if you think that these new articles you've mentioned support your position, please provide links to the articles that you're using as sources. Don't just tell us they exist, show us. It's incumbent on you to provide links, not on us to go digging through newspaper archives to find them ourselves. I have spent enough time on Commercial Appeal's web site as it is, and I'm not going to do your homework for you. If you want to use the articles as evidence, provide us with working links. Thanks. -- Vary | Talk 00:21, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

"Jersyko, your an embarrassing, obnoxious despot", that's hilarious, how did you come up with that one? Ok, I think that's plenty of that. I've asked the administrators to review your actions regarding personal attacks on this page. I hope you can cool down and, if you like, come back at a later date and actually contribute to Misplaced Pages constructively. I won't be discussing this with you any more for now, as it is clear you are primarily intersted in defaming Vary and me. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 00:59, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Vary, I've satisfied my end of the arrangement and have done my homework. Should Ms. McKenzie have headlined the story, "Passion Stamped on David Saks' Stamp Collection" ? Would that have made it notable even though the two page article was about him exclusively ? Some years ago Pat Boone recorded an album entitled "Pat Boone Sings Guess Who?" because Colonel Tom Parker wouldn't let him use Elvis' name on the album cover. Does that make the album unworthy of notabality for Elvis ? In acknowledgement of your temper, it's not my concern. I've not demonstrated any sudden outburst or anger. If you have problems consult with a behavior modification specialist if this is a characteristic (habitual or relatively temporary) state of feeling. You refuse to recognize the information and reliable proof already assimilated in volume because this matter has escalated to a personal crisis that robs you of your psuedo-authority permiting you to delete parts of publications or correspondence as it suits you annonymously. You've been told that some of these links are not available on the web, yet you persist in demanding evidence. Your not interested in Mr. Saks at this point, only the refusal to acknowledge him with this entry. Are you afraid of exposure by falseness or pretension that challenges the trait of being spurred on by a dislike of falling below your standard ? As for Jersko, I'm not interested in proclaiming his ignorance of the matter or spurring him on to contact the Wiki Anti-defamation league. Does this mean that I'll have to see the principal now and receive a spanking ? Stop removing the article about Mr. Saks. Again, edit it with a highly developed state of perfection if you must; giving it a flawless or impeccable quality. Your not interested in the result of improving something which already has an essential and distinguishing attribute, only eliminating it. Although there may be a subtle difference in meaning or opinion or attitude, the quality of excellence in thought, manners and taste would demonstrate that your part of a society in an advanced state of social development. Please demonstrate these characteristics rather than resort to threats and deletion. Good evening.66.239.212.73 03:42, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Anon, under your edit David Saks receives more mention than any other artist on the entire Memphis article, are you aware of this? Why are the songs listed as "an" and "the" official songs of Memphis for the specified years, which of these correct?

Mr. Saks' abilities and artistic contributions to Memphis can't even be acknowledged, let alone verified in this article. While meritable on a local level, Mr. Saks' accomplishments do not warrant mention in an encyclopedia. WP:MUSIC/SONG--Scribner 13:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Scribner, if you had taken the time to review the validation above you would have observed that Mr.Saks has had two songs adopted by the Memphis City Council as the Official Songs of Memphis, which eluded us. In addition, his abilities and artistic contributions, as of which you refer, have amply, sufficiently, more than adequately been verified, including his music manuscripts in the Library of Congress. Perhaps the reason Mr. Saks receives more mention on the Talk page than any other issue is due to some level of notability that he's attained elsewhere, or, perhaps regrettfully, as a result of this forum, which of course, in the manner of Misplaced Pages citation, is a level of recognition within the mind of the editor of who he or she believes they're comfortable by their pseudo-authoritative process of reaching a decision or drawing conclusions, albeit a compulsive or passive judgement. Much of the deletion is malicious because the editor doesn't have the fortitude to examine the facts, nor the strength of mind that enables one to endure adversity. I've spoken with Mr. Saks at length. He's flattered by the issue and finds it very amusing. On the other hand, he has friends that have made this issue a basic generalization that is accepted as true and that will be used as a basis for reasoning and conduct. There hasn't been the establishment of dominance through legal authority, and it seems ludicrous, preposterous to treat this matter along these lines in the fashion of Wiki whistle-blowing. Misplaced Pages is filled with, crammed with informants who thrive on exposing wrongdoing, whether declared and not proven or actual, within this organization in the hope of stopping it, such as Jesyko, Vary and Dozenist. Sometimes of necessity, and other times as a sadistic need to bully the newbie. The city council has indicated that Mr. Saks' two songs, In Memphis, and One Last Bridge will stand as the only songs adopted by the Memphis City Council as the Official Songs of Memphis until a council vote reverses the issue, which appears highly unlikely. I agree with you that Mr. Saks' accomplshments are meritable on a local level. So is demographic information and the information about the Seal of the City. David Saks has earned a place in the history of Memphis music, and deserves inclusion in Misplaced Pages.66.239.212.63 23:39, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Scribner was referring to the article, not the talk page. Under your preferred version, the article would spend more time talking about David Saks than it would about any other artist, including a large number of artists who are far more notable than Mr. Saks but are mentioned only briefly.

I wonder if you'd elaborate on what you mean by "There hasn't been the establishment of dominance through legal authority". What legal authority should be establishing dominance, and whose dominance over what? -- Vary | Talk 02:54, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

—It is ridiculous that this discussion regarding Mr. Saks has reached a sophomoric level. This is not a popularity contest on who knows Mr. Saks or how many articles have been published regarding his songs "One Last Bridge" and "In Memphis". Verifiable proof was given months ago that his two songs were recognized by the Memphis City Council as Official Songs of Memphis. There should be a heading for Official Songs of Memphis. This is as pertinent as Tallest Buildings. 70.248.232.236 03:33, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

As I've said before, information in wikipedia articles has to be not only verifiable, but also notable and encyclopedic. Misplaced Pages is not an indiscriminate collection of information. See WP:MUSIC/SONG -- Vary | Talk 04:20, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

The article on Tennessee has a "Trivia" section and handles inclusion of the seven state songs as such, with an eight word sentence and a hyperlink. Anon, please look at this to gain some perspective on your edit.--Scribner 05:08, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't this collection of dissemblers wonderful? Quote WP:MUSIC/SONGA song is definitely notable if it meets any one of the following standards: '1.Has won a major award.' '2.Is an official anthem of a notable state, region, province or territory.' Scribner, are you the kind of individual that intends to misrepresent the true nature of this matter in the familiar fashion of cronyism ? Why quote the source if you intend to either conceal of misrepresent the facts with an artificial or obviously contrived arrangement of the details ?66.239.212.120 14:47, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

(1) Being named the "official song of Memphis" for one year is not a "major award." A Grammy is a major award. I do not mean to belittle the accomplishment, not many people achieve such an award, I'm sure, but that does not mean that it is therefore a "major award" and encyclopedic. (2) Being named the "official song of Memphis" for one year does not make the song the "official anthem" of the city. Even if it did, Memphis is not a state (the United States), region (the South), province (Tennessee or Ontario), or territory (Northwest Territory), it is a city. · j·e·r·s·y·k·o talk · 15:03, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

It appears that these editors are losing track of the subject at hand. The issue is not how many major awards these songs have received in order to to be included in a Wikipeida article regarding Memphis, Tennessee. They are of merit and should be included because they are official songs of Memphis and deserve to be noted. Jersyko, item number #1 appears to be your opinion regarding what constitutes a major award. I'm sure many people will beg to differ with you.--70.248.232.236 17:35, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Acutally, no, it's not Jersyko's opinion. The Grammy Awards are specifically mentioned as an example of a major award in WP:MUSIC, along with the Juno and Mercury Music Award. -- Vary | Talk 17:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm not trying to slam this down your throat, Vary, but open your ears to these facts in reference to your venerated citation of WP:MUSIC, David Saks: 1.Has been the subject of a half hour or longer broadcast on a national radio network. (Featured subject and guest in one hour interview July 24th, 2006 on Sirius Satellite Radio at Graceland, an international broadcast, in addition to many more radio and television interviews throughout the years). 2.Has become the most prominent representative of a notable style or the local scene of a city.(Official song of Memphis) 3.Has won a major music award, such as a Grammy, Juno or Mercury Music Award. (Memphis City Council Search for the Official Song of Memphis) 4.Has won or placed in a major music competition. (Memphis City Council search for The Official Song of Memphis) 5.Has composed a number of melodies, tunes or standards used in a notable genre, or tradition or school within a notable genre. ( Library of Congress depository: collected works for solo piano (notable genre), "Impressions of Memphis") 6.Has been featured in multiple non-trivial published works in reliable and reputable media (excludes things like school newspapers, personal blogs, etc...). The Commercial Appeal, The Atlanta Constitution, etc. Vary, once again, your pseudo-authoritative display of arbitration resorts to consortia by cronyism demonstrating prejudicial determination of a dispute and not by an impartial referee agreed to by all parties. And please, let the pseudo-editor Jersyko, a person who believes he's responsible for the editorial aspects of publications, the person who determines the final content of this text (especially of an encyclopedia) speak for himself. He's a lawyer, and has practice being a 'mouthpiece'.66.239.212.22 18:44, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

I and other editors have responded to each of the above points more than once, and I don't see any point in continuing to discuss this with you. The reference simply can not stay in against consensus. If you still think your claims have any merit, I'd suggest filing a request for comment to bring in some fresh editors to the discussion. That should satisfy your concerns about 'cronyism'.

And If you can't make your points without resorting to personal attacks, maybe you should step back completely and let the additional editors that an rfc should bring in determine the matter. -- Vary | Talk 19:15, 15 August 2006

'Perhaps this issue should be decided by the additional editors that an rfc should bring in to determine the matter as the current editors are exhibiting bias. It matters not how popular a song is or what prestigious awards it has received to be included under the heading 'Official Songs of Memphis". --70.248.232.236 01:01, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

The Mayor of Memphis' office confirmed to me today that there are no "official songs of Memphis." Additionally, the City of Memphis library information center, confirmed that there are no "official songs of Memphis." Anon, you and David Saks are mistaken or lying by claiming here and on David Saks' personal website that David Saks has written "The official song of Memphis." It reflects poorly on David Saks to represent this claim as fact.--Scribner 01:53, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, that would explain the difficulty there's been in finding current references for the song as the official song. Thank you for going the extra mile to try to find verification, Scribner. -- Vary | Talk 02:07, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

This reflects poorly on you, Scribner, that you did not do your homework. This award was given to Mr. Saks by the Memphis City Council on January 24, 1991. Had you checked with Pamela Crislip, Assistant City Administrator, for the Memphis City Council instead of the Mayor's Office, these facts would have been verified for you. Have you not been following the discussion that verified this information months ago? At issue is that there should be a heading for Official Songs of Memphis and not the popularity of Mr. Saks or his songs. Please do not resort to name calling. See Misplaced Pages rules.--70.248.232.236 02:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC}

Vary, To wit, I, and many others, have responded to each of the above points more than once, many, many times, and there isn't any distinct part that can be specified separately in a group of things that could be enumerated by your constituency in the fashion of a Memphians notoriety. You absolutely fail in that manner. And there is absolutely no need to continue to discuss this with you, either, because of your tenacious unwillingness to yield. At this point you've more than amply demonstrated this and your becoming unpleasant. The evidence has been presented on numerous occasions, by several others throughout this forum and the ones preceeding it, who believe that Mr. Saks deserves a place in the article, as I will always believe. This is not just nonfictional prose forming an independent part of a publication. It's fact. Your persistence to deny this is ludicrous. The reference will be returned in some manner as regards eventually, in spite of the lock-down. Your unrelenting whining about personal attacks suggests that your weak. I repeat, for your benefit Vary: 'In acknowledgement of your temper issue, it's not my concern. I've not demonstrated any sudden outburst or anger. If you have problems consult with a behavior modification specialist if this is a characteristic (habitual or relatively temporary) state of feeling. You refuse to recognize the information and reliable proof already assimilated in volume because this matter has escalated to a personal crisis that robs you of your psuedo-authority permiting you to delete parts of publications or correspondence as it suits you annonymously. You've been told that some of these links are not available on the web, yet you persist in demanding evidence.' It's suspect that the article about Mr. Saks was fine for many months until an Anon deleted it on August 8th. It's also coincidental that some of the college swots that participated earlier this year are back. Mr. Saks deserves a place in the history of the City of Memphis.' Vary, Best wishes with your Wiki-editing career, although I hope you don't give up your day job.' Read Misplaced Pages:Assume good faith. There hasn't been any vandalism.66.239.212.41 02:31, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

W.C. Handy

W.C. Handy's song, "Mr. Crump" might be a fitting mention at some point,with a link. The article's getting pretty large now.

"In 1909, Handy and his band were asked to play for the campaign of the Memphis political boss, Edward H. Crump. At the time, the most popular song in their repertoire was a piece called "Mr. Crump" which contained some lines not exactly complimentary to their patron:

'Mr. Crump doan allow no easy riders here. We doan care what Mr. Crump doan allow, We gonna Barrel-house anyhow. Mr. Crump can go and catch himself some air.'"

As you know the song's title was later changed to, "The Memphis Blues." --Scribner 19:50, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a fun piece of trivia. It gets a quick mention in Handy's article, but it could work here, too, although I can't think how too incorporate it. -- Vary | Talk 02:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Formatted content: (--70.248.232.236 01:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)--70.248.232.236 01:04, 16 August 2006 (UTC)