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ArbCom elections are now open!

Hi,
You appear to be eligible to vote in the current Arbitration Committee election. The Arbitration Committee is the panel of editors responsible for conducting the Misplaced Pages arbitration process. It has the authority to enact binding solutions for disputes between editors, primarily related to serious behavioural issues that the community has been unable to resolve. This includes the ability to impose site bans, topic bans, editing restrictions, and other measures needed to maintain our editing environment. The arbitration policy describes the Committee's roles and responsibilities in greater detail. If you wish to participate, you are welcome to review the candidates' statements and submit your choices on the voting page. For the Election committee, MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 13:46, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Iwane Matsui GAN

Iwane Matsui, an article that you or your project may be interested in, has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article.

It's that season again...

		Happy Saturnalia
		Wishing you and yours a Happy Holiday Season, from the horse and bishop person. May the year ahead be productive and troll-free. Ealdgyth - Talk 17:26, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

Warmest Wishes for Health, Wealth and Wisdom through the Holidays and the Coming Year! Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 00:12, 27 December 2015 (UTC)

I'd like some input

I've been asking around, but I'd like your take. In your view, what, other than a ban, would be a good outcome here? As for my interest, I'm a professional proofreader and editor. I've focused on pages that concern my area of expertise. Darkfrog24 (talk) 19:50, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

@Darkfrog24: The desired outcome is that any page that provides advice to editors (MoS) or reference to readers (article space) is free of disruption. I think protracted disagreements that play out in a production environment, rather than on Talk pages exclusively, are disruptive to any person who comes by seeking advice or reference. Your average editor doesn't know or care about the intricacies of LQ and whether it is a purely stylistic or possibly nationalistic issue. Nor should they be made to care by being privy to the dispute, when all they were trying to do is figure out where to put a period. I believe you want to do what's best for the encyclopedia, but I think you've lost sight of that goal in that you're personalizing the issues, you're focused on winning the dispute, and you haven't demonstrated that you know when to walk away and find something else to do. This may be selfish but if you're a proofreader and editor I'd rather you focus on helping us at WP:PR or WP:FAC. Proofread and edit some pages that might actually show up on the front page some day, you know? I detest solutions that amount to force (blocks and bans) but I don't see any other way forward that doesn't involve you continuing the same behavior. --Laser brain (talk) 20:43, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

You will see that most of the complaints made against me concern talk pages. In those that involve info page or articles, I'm usually the one initiating talk page discussions. The ones that I had with Dicklyon concerning MOS:SUPPORTS were highly productive and led to each of us compromising with the other on substantive points.

I happen to agree that the average editor doesn't care about this rule.

I actually stopped general gnoming on Misplaced Pages once I found I was not allowed to do so using correct English, and I don't feel like using punctuation that is incorrect per its context serves the reader. I still do a bit here and there. A few years ago, I tried to find a filter that I could use to edit articles on British subjects, in which the current rule would be correct, but I didn't find one.

The way I see it, I've done nothing wrong, but you clearly don't feel that way. So what do you see as a positive change that I could make here? Darkfrog24 (talk) 20:58, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I think you should lose the focus on getting your way and just edit some articles. However, your statement above "I found I was not allowed to do so using correct English" indicates that you're not willing to drop the issue. In my experience, editors who see Misplaced Pages through this kind of filter always end up disappointed at best, blocked/banned at worst. --Laser brain (talk) 12:10, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Here's what I mean by that. My aunt is a speech therapist. Spanish class drove her nuts because her teacher had a Castillian lisp. "But that's what I try to fix all day!" That's why I gave up gnoming. It feels too much like undoing my own work and that's just not how I want to spend my time.

So what do you see as something I could do here? Ed Johnson said he wanted me to make some kind of voluntary pledge, but he didn't say what he meant by that. You're the only one who's answered any of my questions. Darkfrog24 (talk) 12:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I think I've already answered that question, haven't I? Maybe you have a fundamentally different style of discourse from the people you've encountered in this community and that's the cause of your conflicts, but that's Rhetoric 101. I think people have gotten frustrated with you because it feels like you're being obtuse, but I can't really tell. I don't know what else to say, sorry. --Laser brain (talk) 15:58, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for what you've said so far, but I'll be more explicit: @EdJohnston: says he wants me to make a voluntary pledge. What does he want me to pledge to do or not do? Or you? I've asked him, but he hasn't answered. I get the impression that everyone wants me to just guess what they're thinking, but that hasn't worked out so well so far. Darkfrog24 (talk) 17:16, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

My answer is more or less the same as KillerChihuahua's. I can't guess what Ed meant exactly, but if it were me, I'd ask you to formulate your own voluntary restriction so one doesn't have to be thrust upon you. I think it's a moot point, though, because you haven't instilled any neutral administrators at AE with confidence that you even recognize the problems with your behavior, let alone are capable of crafting a meaningful voluntary restriction. --Laser brain (talk) 17:57, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• See also: User_talk:KillerChihuahua § .22Voluntary.22_means_what_exactly.3F KillerChihuahua 17:44, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Killer C suggested one edit a day for a specific period. That's the sort of thing that I'd find feasible. As for "figure it out on your own," that's where I got the "support but don't initiate" policy that I've been using for the past few years, but it doesn't seem to meet everyone's standards. Expecting me to perform or stop performing an action is one thing, but I can't read anyone's mind. I can only ask them to tell me what they think. Or look at it this way. I heard "Jump." Now I'm asking "How high?" Darkfrog24 (talk) 18:14, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

• It's not correct that the complaints about this editor are primarily about their talk page disruption. They're about editwarring and PoV pushing in MOS itself, in the FAQ and other pages relating to MOS, and most importantly in mainspace at Quotation marks in English; plus also (since Sept. 2015) now even Wiktionary. It's just incidental that the largest amount of evidence for tendentious campaigning comes from the associated talk pages. This is almost always the case, because WP:3RR prevents constant revertwarring. A "one edit per day" restriction would, for someone playing a 6-year WP:CIVILPOV and slow-editwar long game like this, not really be a restriction at all, but an invitation to continue the campaign for another 6 years with the "legal imprimatur" that they're allowed to raise the matter tendentiously anew every single day for eternity. This TB needs to be cross-namespace, and to result in the editor taking a lengthy break (under indef terms that require a showing that their understanding has changed and behavior will differ per WP:STANDARDOFFER) from the topic area in which their behavior has resulted in them chasing off other editors' participation so that they effectively dominate MOS, MOS:FAQ, MOS:SUPPORTS, MOS:REGISTER, the article, and all their associated talk pages, on this topic.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽ⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ≼  22:28, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

You cannot trust what SmC says. You think I've got a problem with WP:LQ? Well SmC has a problem with me. As for the article space, he wants to use his biased wording and his own conclusions in Quotation marks in English, and he's annoyed that I told him he needed a source and not just his own beliefs. In that page's older, heavily inaccurate form, it was mirrored and cited by several off-Misplaced Pages sites. If I get topic banned, someone needs to keep an eye on it.

Everything I've done to QMiE and other pages has been fully consistent with WP:V, WP:NPOV and all other regulations. I don't think I should be topic banned at all, but even people who do should see that the I've been an asset in the article space. My problem is with Misplaced Pages's rule requiring writers to use only British punctuation. The only relationship that has to the articles is that I was able to use the sources I dug up to improve them. Darkfrog24 (talk) 23:23, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

I assure that I am capable of reviewing the facts and making up my own mind about things. I can also assure you that I'm uninterested in the content dispute aside from its effect on other people. I wish you would reflect on that fact that you continue to personalize disputes and focus on winning, which is why you're going to end up with this topic ban. You've set it up so it's the only way forward. --Laser brain (talk) 23:54, 21 January 2016 (UTC)

Reviewing the facts for yourself sounds great. Here's the effect it's had on other people: .

I assure you, it took a lot for me to say anything even this personal about SMC. I've been turning the other cheek for months. But frankly I'm not sure how I'm supposed to defend myself from his accusations if he's doing and saying things that I'm not allowed to do and say. He's outright called me a liar and delusional, and I'm a bit at a loss for how to respond to all that. This is why I asked for advice on AE etiquette at the AN noticeboard. Look at what Izno is saying. Look at Dicklyon and Tony. None of those people agree with me about WP:LQ either. Then look at SmC.

I don't know what you mean by "focus on winning." I am saying this because I want to understand your thought process. What do you think I'm trying to win? Which of my actions do you find "focus on winning"? Darkfrog24 (talk) 00:43, 22 January 2016 (UTC)

Regarding topic ban of Darkfrog24

I am contacting you because of your involvement in the topic ban that was placed against me. I would like to make the best of the next six months and am requesting your input on how best to do so.

What do you see as the appropriate way to oppose a longstanding Misplaced Pages MoS rule? My own take was to initiate no new threads or RfCs but participate in those started by others (which happens once or twice a year). This clearly was not something that you guys consider acceptable. What do you think I should do instead? Is it just that there was too much of it?

I notice that my offers to engage in a voluntary restriction were not accepted. What would you have seen as more suitable? Is it that I was asking you guys what you wanted me to do instead of making my own guesses?

What can I do over the next six months to give you guys confidence that I can be allowed to return to work?

I am understanding the topic ban to cover both MoS pages, articles concerning quotation marks, and their respective talk pages. Is this the case? Before I became involved, both Quotation marks in English and Full stop contained significant amounts of unsourced material and I am worried that that content will be returned. If I should happen to see such a case, am I allowed to notify someone else that the unsourced material is there?

I also feel that user SMcCandlish was not honest with you and should be treated as an outlier. Darkfrog24 (talk) 14:58, 22 January 2016 (UTC)