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An event mentioned in this article is a June 4 selected anniversary

Relevance of economic power in the introduction?

What make this so important that it needs to be included in the introduction?

The winning powers included one economic mainstream within Europe, that is the nations that had gone through rapid progress in the 19th century due to industrial revolution and, to a certain extent, to colonialism (Britain, France, and to a smaller extent Italy). Austria-Hungary also experienced economic progress especially in the late 19th century (without relying on colonization), but remained a European country with a relatively underdeveloped economy.

-- nyenyec ☎ 01:08, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Consequences

It should be mentioned how the effects of the treaty determined Hungarian foreign and military policy leading up to and including WW2. -- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

House of Terror

What does it have to do with the treaty of Trianon?

-- nyenyec ☎ 01:27, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Tragedy

As to the discussion about whether Trianon is considered as a national tragedy for Hungary or only for Hungarian nationalists, I can confirm the former. But to cite a neutral source, according to Loney Planet Hungary (by Steve Fallon, 2000): "Trianon became the singularly most hated word in Hungary, and the diktátum is often reviled today as if it were imposed on the nation only yesterday." Vay 13:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Is this a mainstream view or is it constrained to right-wing nationalists, similar to the Pan-Germanism still embraced e.g. by the Austrian FPÖ. Jbetak 14:50, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Considering it as a tragedy is fairly mainstream, seeking territorial revision is constrained to the extreme right (without representation in the Parliament). Vay 15:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. Would it be fair to compare the mainstream views of Trianon to those of the Battle of Mohács? Obviously, Trianon was not followed by an enemy invasion, but the similarities are IMHO striking. Jbetak 15:19, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Yes, it would be fair. It is common to describe Hungarian history as a sequence of tragedies (lost battles, failed revolutions): conquest of Tartars, Mohács, Világos (where the revolutionary army finally capitulated in 1849), Trianon, Nyilas takeover in 1944, and finally 1956. It would be interesting to know whether these experiences lead to the pessimism that is so all-pervading in Magyar culture, or this pessimism determined somehow the way of telling the story. BTW the period between 1867 and 1918 is among the few that is regarded as successful by most people (thus further distancing Magyar POV from that of others regarding this era primarily as the period of Magyarization). Vay 15:45, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Plebiscites

PANONIAN insists on the fact that plebiscites were held in Alba Iulia and Novi Sad, reverting a version by HunTomy. According to a neutral (Croatian) source: "For this reason, it is surprising that the winning forces of the First World War did not adopt the principle of self-determination (which they themselves emphasized in the context of Wilson’s 11 Points) and conduct a plebiscite in Vojvodina." 1 According to a Romanian source, there was indeed a plebiscite in Alba Iulia: a plebiscite of all Romanians in Transylvania and Hungary, and later an other one in Cernauti: a plebiscite of all Romanians. 2. It is fair to tell that this was not a vote by all inhabitants of the territories concerned, the electorate having been the Romanian community. I will not revert to HunTomy's version, but wait for PANONIAN's sources. Vay 19:43, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

It's disgusting how extreme nationalists hustling here who say that there were plebiscites in the historical Hungary. There was some congresses where some extreme sepetarists declared something supperted by foreign powers. Abominable.... HunTomy 2006.01.19.

I wrote now that there were no plebiscites held in the "Hungarian majority areas", because it is why you object to this, right? But to say that there were no any plebiscites and that non-Hungarian peoples were separated from Hungary against their will is simply wrong. They did said what is their will. PANONIAN (talk) 17:08, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Oops, I missed that edit. That is OK for me, of course I don't think Romanians were not happy to unite with Romania, etc. Vay 18:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

What "Hungarian majority areas" existed at that time? Vasile 17:24, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Roughly where Hungarian communities still live today. Szeklerland, eastern part of Partium, several cities of Partium and Transylvania (Oradea, Cluj, etc.), southern part of Slovakia including Kosice, and norther part of Vojvodina including Subotica. It would have been useful to held plebiscites in ethnically mixed areas like Bratislava, etc. as well. It's history now, so you might even admit that it wouldn't have been a bad idea after all. Vay 18:57, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

It would have been a very bad solution for those peoples. --Vasile 21:15, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Holding plebiscites? Why? Vay 22:28, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

How do imagine the peoples of 1918, after 4 years of war? Had any Alsace and Lorraine, Czech & Sudetland or Poland plebiscite? An unfriendly plebiscite was kept in Sopron, between friendly Hungary and Austria. --Vasile 23:28, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

Had plebiscites been held, there might have been no 2nd WW. Vay 00:18, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Not in 1939, but in 1919. --Vasile 00:21, 24 January 2006 (UTC)

Hmmm, there's an interesting article by one Sabin Gherman on the previous version of the page by HunTomy. Who is that guy? Maybe you should write an article about him... BTW, don't be naive, HunTomy, Romanians _were_ happy to unite, Wesselényi warned already before 1848 that the historic country was in danger... I guess Gherman is a Transylvanist, or simply a guy fed up with usual E-European provincialism (we could cite Endre Ady about Hungarians and the magyar ugar as well...) Vay 23:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm not naive. Who wants to live in a balcan level country? Transylvania became part of an Eastern Europen country, which is poor, undeveloped and corrupt. Vojvodina now belongs to the balcan. Very joyful. And i would not talk about the level of Subcarpathia (which is now belongs to Ukraine)... Endre Ady did not want to seperate from Hungary just wrote critics about the social system of the contemporary Hungary. Or you can read "És ha Erdélyt elveszik?" (And what will happen if they took Transylvania?) from Ady from 1912

And remember: the "magyarisation" was a natural process not dictatorial like romanians, czeckslovaks and yugoslavs did after 1920. This is a great difference...

Well, Vojvodina "do not belong to the Balkans". As an native Vojvodinian I can tell you that Vojvodina is still in Central Europe where it always was, and present day Serbia is both, Balkanic and Central European country, as well as Serbs are both, Balkanic and Central European people. So, please do not teach me where I live, ok? PANONIAN (talk) 22:11, 26 January 2006 (UTC)

Ask some people from the real central or western europe about serbia. Serbia is primarily balcanic. I know what is the balcanic character.

The question was about Vojvodina. The geographical, physical and natural region Balkans (one of Europe's 11 such regions) ends at the Sava river and at the Danube in Serbia, i.o.w. Vojvodina is not part of the Balkans. If we add a historical point of view, it is not part of the Balkans all the more. Juro 20:23, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

From the "real" Central Europe? And I live in the "false" one then, right? Please... As Juro explained, geographical borders of Balkans are clear. As for cultural borders of Balkans some people claim that those are same as the borders of the former Ottoman Empire in Europe, thus most of the neighbouring parts of Hungary, Romania, and Croatia are culturally Balkanic too, but that was not the point. PANONIAN (talk) 20:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)

New Hungarian state vs continuity

I think it is wrong to put "new Hungarian state" in the first paragraph since the state following the Trianon dictate was the same Kingdom of Hungary, albeit dismembered. Also, instead of a simple "agreement", I would insist to put "enforced agreement" since Hungary did not voluntarily renounce two thirds of its historical territory but the country signed the treaty under duress.81.183.183.18 21:14, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Over-emphasizing the distinction between Hungary and Kingdom of Hungary is clearly POV - Kingdom of Hungary existed until the end of WW2. For Vasile: Whether Hungary having been independent or not, created as a "new state" or not, see the above discussion and the article and discussion on Kingdom of Hungary, where a compromise has been reached. Vay 03:33, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

The state of 1918 is clearly a continuation of that of 1867. It achieved the sovereignty and was totally separated by Austria: that was the sense of the expression "new independent state". Despite the name still in use until 1945, it seems that "kingdom of Hungary" ceased to exist in 1918. I doubt that kingdom of Hungary actually existed between 1867 and 1918. The army was the essential and traditional element connecting the monarchic institution with a people or nation in 19th century. (Info in Ausgleich article is very unclear anyway.) --Vasile 02:27, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

If the Kingdom of Hungary did not exist after the Compromise, what did the acronym k.u.k refer to? (just a brief question...). The truth is, the Kingdom of Hungary had retained its existence since St. Stephen's coronation, even the Austrian emperors ruled the country as Hungarian kings (they had to be crowned by St. Stephen's Holy Crown in order to be considered legal rulers). Thus Hungary was not a hereditary province of Austria, but as an independent kingdom, part of the Habsburg Empire. (As opposed to like Slovakia, which name is always used by Slovak nationalists for the medieval history of Northern Hungary, it never existed as a separate administrative entity, it was always an integral part of the Kingdom of Hungary.) 84.2.101.172 12:15, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear fascist, I can repeat that 100 times if you want. The term Slovakia exists at least from the 15th century. It is now used by ALL Slovaks and everybody else in Europe (not by "nationalists"). Regions in the world have their names, even if they are no administrative entities or states. And nobody has ever claimed that there was a POLITICAL entity called Slovakia, that is your personal invention to have at least something you could critise. Juro 20:31, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Dear "drótos tót", regions usually follow administrative or historical boundaries, and the region you calling Slovakia was called "Felsőmagyarország" or "Felföld" or "Felvidék" for the most part of history.

Dear nomadic Asian fascist (I hope I have used the equivalent of your above 19th century insult), "Felsőmagyarország" referred to eastern Slovakia and in the 19th century to the territory to the north of the Danube, Tisza and including the Carpathian Ruthenia (I see no similarity to the territory of Slovakia and no chronological relevance). And above all, it was completely inofficial in the second sense. And dear nothing-knowing fascist, "Felvidék", as you can read in Hungarian literature of the 19th century on this topic, did not mean anything, the word was a neologism and referred to "the territories to the north of the place of the speaker" or the "northern mountanous territories" or sometimes was just confused with "Felsőmagyarország". The Hungarian language name for Slovakia in the late 19th century was "Szlovenskó". Irrespective of this, this is an international encyclopedia, and English books, Czech, French, German etc. used (also) the term Slovakia for the "territory inhabited by Slovaks". It is that simple. Juro 02:25, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Wrong again, just as everywhere, first of all, "drótos (tinker) tót" was not an insult but an occupation, just as "szódás tót". The words "Felsőmagyarország, Felvidék and not the least, Felföld" have been extensively used throughout history, Felföld exactly meant the mountaineous area north of the Alföld (Plains), here is an example from a Hungarian literary gem: Péter Bornemissza: Siralmas énnékem

(Sorrowful song):

Az Felföldet bírják az kevély nímötök

Szerémséget bírják az fene törökök

(Rough translation:

Our upper land is in the hands of the haughty Germans

Szerémség is in the hands of the hellish Ottomans).

Examples like this exists galore. And btw, the "Land inhabited by Slovaks" would have had no meaning in the Middle Ages (it could have only represented some villages in the North), since the urban population and the intelligentsia was mainly composed of Hungarian and (mostly) German ethnics.Enigma1 22:22, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

"Szlovenszkó" was used briefly after WW1, when everybody was shocked by the emergence of the new state, and they simply translated the Slovak term. As for Slovakia, it couldn't have been a widespread indication, if even 1911 Britannica (with a clear pro-Slovak bias thanks to Scotus Viator) does not mention it: ]. Vay 05:03, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Szlovenszkó was also used before WW1, however rarely, sure, I just wanted to point out that it even exists in Hungarian. As for Britannica, no the encyclopedia has the opposite bias, quite naturally, and it does not mention it (I have not checked that I have to believe you) because it was no administrative unit or state at that time. The biggest Czech encyclopedia, for example, mentions it. There are even encyclopedias in the 17th century that mention it, again - rarely, sure. Irrespective of this "encyclopedias", the term was used as a completely normal term at least from the 15th ncetury onward by the locals, especially by the Germans (Slowakey etc.). And, a Slovak nationalist would inform you that the term "Slovak land" occurs in the documents even in the middle ages (the translation of the Latin term is however disputed for that time). As for Upper Hungary, in the 19th century, even the Slovaks used ALSO to say that they live in Upper Hungary (i.e. in northern Hungary), since Slovakia and Upper Hungary are different terms, but intercept in a part. My point above was that nobody has ever claimed that there was a STATE called Slovakia in 1917, so I do not understand, what I have to react to this constant heckling here, actually. Juro 01:11, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

You can not seriously assert the independece of KH between 1867 and 1918 without proving the existence of aspects of a modern sovereign state: national citizenship, external policy, national army and security force, and international recognition of the independent state. --Vasile 12:29, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

During the millennial history of the Hungarian Kingdom, the utmost sovereignty was exercised by the Holy Crown of St. Stephen, according to the Holy Crown Doctrine (Szent Korona Tan), even kings were subjected to the Crown (this is a unique feature of the Kingdom of Hungary, since no other nation had a crown that had such a sacred connotation), even Habsburgs had to be crowned with the Holy Crown in order to be accepted as legitimate rulers. Also an important aspect that the Hungarian kings were called "Apostolic King of Hungary", hence the apostolic cross in the Hungarian coat of arms. The main point is that the Kingdom of Hungary clearly existed separately from the hereditary provinces of Austria, like Bohemia (Czechia) for example, which had been an integral part of the German (and later, the Austrian Empire for most of the Middle Ages).Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

It is interesting that Hungarians themselves claimed in 1918/1919 that their new independent state have no continuity with the Habsburg Kingdom of Hungary, and therefor their new state was not a kingdom, but REPUBLIC (Hungarian Democratic Republic and Hungarian Soviet Republic after it). Problem is that Hungarians in that time did not know what will be the borders of their new independent state. When borders of independent Hungary were defined in 1920, Hungarian nationalists who were not satisfied with these borders changed the story about the continuity and now claimed that Hungary have continuity with the former kingdom (the country was even officially named kingdom again, no matter that it did not had a king, but only regent). Thus, the whole story about continuity is a story about "right" to territories outside of the Hungarian borders, and its purpose is to justify border changes in favor of Hungary. Of course, the real question is why now in the 21st century somebody have need to talk about continuity of Hungary. Just imagine how would look if somebody would start talking about continuity of France or continuity of United Kingdom. PANONIAN (talk) 00:55, 27 February 2006 (UTC)

This has nothing to do with continuity, since in 1918/1919, for a brief period, Hungary was a republic and a Soviet republic, so obviously, they rejected any kind of continuity with the old kingdom (the Communists even went as far as renouncing their claim to Hungarian territorial integrity, however it is true that later on, Béla Kun's army beat the crap out of the Czechs and nearly liberated Felvidék, but this is off topic). As soon as legitimacy was restored in the name of the Holy Crown, continuity was restored, as well. Enigma1 22:10, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

Apart from continuity, a section detailing the economic and cultural consequences of the Trianon Dictate would be most welcome, describing that the main driving force behind the treaty was to disempower a united, and highly prosperous economic region by dissolving the historical Hungary into more backward puppet states. Also, a forced and systematic destruction of Hungarian cultural instututions (schools, theaters, universities - like in Pozsony and Kolozsvár), mass expulsion and deportation of Hungarians should be documented objectively. Enigma1 22:31, 4 March 2006 (UTC)

The country was NOT a prosperous region, it was a very backward country, especially Hungary. People were leaving the country in masses (hundreds of thousands). So, read a book of fairy tales or something and let normal people do their work, OK ? Juro 06:13, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

You don't like the truth very much now, do you? Yes, there was mass emigration to America (mostly from poverty-ridden areas which were mostly inhabited by Rusyns or - incidentally - Slovaks) but the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy and Hungary as a whole underwent its most prosperous growth period in the area, much of the current infrastructure (roads, railways, does the Kassa-Oderberg railway ring a bell?) was built in that period. But even after the dissolution of the Monarchy, Hungary always remained much more prosperous and westernized than the successor states. Take Czechoslovakia for instance in which the so-called "state-forming" nations were much less advanced than the "subjugated" Germans and Hungarians. 81.182.209.170 20:30, 5 March 2006 (UTC)

Cease fire lines or borders

Hello PANONIAN (talk)! I think these borders became international borders by signing of the Treaty of Trianon by all sides. There were a lot of military movement in the region after November 1918 and I don't think, that you would accept that the border of Romania was in the middle of Budapest. I agree however, that there were only little clashes with the Serbian Army after December 1918 and the Serbian occupation zone existed as Serbian territory in this period (incuding today's South Hungary). The fully recognized international borders of Hungary were set by the Treaty of Trianon.

kelenbp 13:17, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

As I said, the SCS Kingdom was internationally recognized as a country in 1919, and all its provinces that belonged to former Austria-Hungary were recognized as part of this country (The Treaty of Trianon only confirmed this with minor border corrections in the north). The point is that, the cease-fire lines from November 1918 were international borders (temporar ones of course) of SCS Kingdom when it was recognized as a country. Also, the Serbian occupation zone you mentioned officially was called like this only until November 25, 1918, when the area officially became part of Serbia. I do not know much about borders of Slovakia and Romania, but in the case of SCS Kingdom, it were not only cease fire lines. PANONIAN (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Whatever we say, the SCS Kingdom has fallen apart twice in history (in 1941 and in the 90's), the penultimate product of Trianon (except for Romania) is finding a miserable end right before our eyes, it is a question of time before Bácska votes for independence and reunion with Hungary Árpád 22:51, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

Hahahaha. Good joke. You made my day. :))) PANONIAN (talk) 02:07, 7 June 2006 (UTC)

Just watch it happening, Kosovo is next. What will remain afterwards from the Balkan's "pariah state"? Árpád 02:58, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Right, what ever you say... However, this is an encyclopaedia, not a political forum, thus, you should find some other place to present your "opinion". PANONIAN (talk) 20:44, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Then stick to the truth and stop claiming ridiculous things like Pécs being a Serbian town while objective statistics prove that the Hungarian ethnic area went as far down as Újvidék...

There is no conflikt between my and your data. Your data is from 1910 and mine is from 1715 (much has changed during these 200 years because of the Magyarization policy). PANONIAN (talk) 12:34, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

There are also data before the Turkish occupation when the population of the territory of the current Vojvodina was overwhelmingly Hungarian. The beginning of the 18th century shows a low number of Hungarians because they took the lion's share of fighting against the Turks so obviously their share in the population dwindled. This can also be ascribed to the settlement policy of the Habsburg Empire.

You only forgot to mention that before the Hungarian conquest in the 10th century, the population of present-day Vojvodina was overwhelmingly Slavic, and the research of the toponyms showed that these Slavs spoke the same language as Serbs. It is questionable whether all of them were Serbs by their national feeling (some of them certainly did), but linguistically and ethnologically they were no different than Serbs. PANONIAN (talk) 22:06, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

There were Slavic population all in the Pannonian Plain between the 8-10th centuries but they were not modern nations like Serbs or Slovaks. In the case of the Slovaks it is sure that they are descendants of this Slavic population (although there were constants migration over the Carpathian Mountains in the Middle Ages). But the Serbs became an independent nation in the 9-10th century deep in the Balkan Peninsula, and the Slavs of the Great Plain assimilated into the Magyars in the early Middle Ages. I don't think there is any continuity of population between them and the Serbs. Zello 22:43, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

And I did not said that there was a continuity between most of the Serbs who migrated from Rascia in the 14th century and their ethnic cousins that lived in Vojvodina in the 10th century, but there is also no continuity between Magyars who lived in Vojvodina in the 16th century and Magyars who migrated to Vojvodina from the north in the 18th and 19th century. PANONIAN (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2006 (UTC)

Only one important difference: although the Magyars of Bácska were killed or fled in the Turkish Wars, and you are right that there is no continuity in persons, the Magyars as a nation or ethnicity are continous with themselves since the 10th century until now. Serbs are similary continous with themselves since the 9th century - but Serbs are not continous as a nation with the SLAVS of the Pannonian Plain. At most they are related to them as they are related to Croats, Slovenes etc. Zello 00:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, that is where you wrong because present-day Serbs are continuous as a nation with the Slavs of the Pannonian Plain. It is part of these Slavs that moved from the Pannonian plain to Balkans in the 6th century, and present-day Serbs are descendants of these Slavs. The Serbs that settled in Balkans a century latter were in fact the Sorbs (Lusatian Serbs), who mixed with Pannonian-Balkan Slavs, and transfered their name to them, but lost their Sorbian language. Present day Serbian language did not derived from Sorbian, but rather from Ukrainian, which confirm the Slavic migration from western Ukraine to Pannonian plain and Balkans. Present-day Serbs, Croats and Slovenes are all descendants of these Slavs. PANONIAN (talk) 01:52, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Obviously what you wrote is the best argument against the national continuity between Serbs and Pannonian Slavs. These people didn't form a specific nation - they were a branch of that ancient Slavic people that migrated and settled in different areas of Central-Europe and later formed different nations. Every Slavic people are related to each other. But related is not "the same" - this is what I say. Even the Croats are not Serbs but a different nation. So you cannot claim that Pannonian Slavs were Serbs, they were Pannonian Slavs. They lost the opportunity to develop into a unique Slav nation and establish their own country because of the arrival of the Magyars. So they disappered in an early stage. But the medieval Magyars of Bácska were Magyars because the Magyar nation already took shape around the 11th century in the Pannonian Plain (as the Serb also but not in Vojvodina). Zello 02:30, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Seems that we do not have same difinition of a term nation. It is not name that define a nation, but common culture, language, religion, etc. The point is that ancestors of the Serbs lived in Pannonian plain before they settled in Balkans and the question whether they in that time called themselves Serbs, Slavs, Wends or Russians is really irrelevant for this question. Of course, I agree that these early Pannonian Slavs are also ancestors of Hungarians, thus the continuity of both nations would be the same. However, only Serbs kept the language and culture of their ancestors (Pannonian Slavs), while Pannonian Slavs who became Hungarians lost that language and culture and adopted language and culture of Hungarians instead. The second question is about that medieval Serb and Hungarian nation. The modern nations were formed in the 18th and 19th century, and in medieval times the term nation had very different meaning. When we speak about medieval Hungarians and Serbs we rather speak about citizens of Hungary and Serbia than about modern nations. In that time, the Hungarian was simply somebody who lived in Hungary, and the Serb was somebody who lived in Serbia. Much more important question is what language was spoken by people who lived there because modern ethnology classify nations by the language they speak. If we compare the language situation in Vojvodina in history, we can see that from the arrival of the Slavs in the 5th century to the 13th century (800 years), dominant language of population of Vojvodina was Slavic (and not just any Slavic, but exactly that which was later called Serbo-Croatian), between 13th and 16th century dominant language was Hungarian (300 years), and after 16th century until the present day it was Slavic again (500 years). Point is, if somebody was called Hungarian because he lived in medieval Hungarian state, but if Hungarian was not his native language, we cannot say that he was same with modern Hungarians, neither you can claim continuity between those people and modern Hungarians. PANONIAN (talk) 10:54, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Another very interesting question is a dialect spoken by Serbs in Vojvodina. See the map of Serbo-Croatian dialects: http://sr.wikipedia.org/%D0%A1%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0:DijalektiStok.jpg The Serbs in Vojvodina speak their own dialect, which is, besides Vojvodina, spoken elsewhere only in the territory of former banovina of Mačva which also belonged to the medieval Hungarian state. If Serbs of Vojvodina and Mačva were only migrants from the south, they would speak some of the southern dialects, but they do not (as opposite example, it is evident that Serbs of Bosanska Krajina and Croatia speak the same dialect as Serbs of Herzegovina, thus it is clear that they migrated from there). It is also important that all these dialects from the map are very old - Serbs settled in Bosanska Krajina and Croatia in the 16th century and they still speak the Herzegovinian dialect, still not formed their own. PANONIAN (talk) 11:12, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

I'd have a few things to say but once we can follow the discussion in a more proper place, for example the History of Vojvodina article :) Zello 14:25, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Whatever. Wherever you find it suitable. PANONIAN (talk) 15:28, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

"national tragedy" clause

The sentence "Many Hungarians consider the treaty a national tragedy still today." is correct. I can't find any sources right now asserting this, but in fact if you google for "Trianon" and see the bulk quantity of heated discussions in Hungarian going on on various sites, that should be proof enough. KissL 07:53, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

From the Hungarian viewpoint, it can be considered a national tragedy: dismemberment of a major regional power, loss of 2/3 of territory and population, establishment of an artificial border cutting through organically developed regions.Árpád 11:32, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Minorities

Speaking about Trianon only the 1920 official census numbers matter not before or later ten years, although the 1930 and 1941 censuses are mentioned to indicate the process of slow decline until WW2. This is not a place for Czechoslovakian propaganda numbers which lack any official census background. In Hungarian sources I didn't find any distinction in the 1920 census like Slovak or "Slovak-speaking" so present any evidence that these higher numbers were part of the 1920 official census and not a Czechoslovakian claim. Zello 19:21, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

And did you find them for 1910 (e.g.)? Because it is very difficult to find such detailed data in full - I myself found them (for 1910) only by coincidence. Secondly, it is interesting that you call Hungarian figures "Czechoslovak propaganda numbers" as soon as you do not like them. (If I added real "propaganda" numbers the whole list would be even much worse for you) Finally, I have given the source; and after all, I can even delete the Czechoslovak estimate, the Hungarian numbers are quite enough.Juro 19:30, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Ah, yes, and as for your notice board remark regarding the "slow decline": 1920: 145 000 Slovaks vs. 1930: 100 000 Slovaks - do you call this a "slow" decline??? I got used to Hungarian propaganda in the meantime, but this cannot be even qualified as an exaggeration.Juro 19:41, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The "wrong" numbers are from Romsics' book about Hungary in the 20th century. He says that these numbers show the the minorities according to the MOTHER-LANGUAGE data of the 1920 census. So where are your higher numbers from és what they mean? Zello 19:50, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Quote from the source "the official Hungarian statistical data from 1920 say that 399,170 citizens speak of the Slovak language. In reality there were far more Slovaks living in Hungary....". I do not think that someone is able to invent such an number (the other numbers in the book are correct) and given that determining the "Slovak etc. speaking Hungarians" (that was the official name in 1910 at least) was a standard in Hungary (both in 1910 and in 1930), I see no reason to assume that this was not the case in 1920. Juro 20:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

The whole population of Hungary increased between 1920 and 1930 so higher numbers are natural for minorities. There is no reason to use misleading 1930 data for 1920 when we have an official census in 1920. Zello 19:57, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Firstly, note that I do not have the "speaking" data for 1920 except for the Slovaks (unfortunately), therefore you cannot compare the 1920 "non-speaking" data and the 1930 "speaking" data (other type of question). E.g. the number of Germans cannot have increased and did not increase from 500 000 to 800 000 - that would countradict historic facts and demographic rules. In reality, the lower number are persons where it cannot be denied that they are Germans, while the 300 000 difference are those Germans where something has been found to declare them not "fully" German although they spoke German. Secondly, I have rounded down the figures. Thirdly, I could agree with you if the differences would be in several percentage points or so, but they are always at least in 50 p.p. or much higher and that cannot be explained by a general population increase. And after all, if the whole population increased, how does it come than that the percentage of Slovaks decreased by 1/3 then (a remark: in reality it stayed at around 400 000 - 500 000 all the time until after WWII, because that number was counted (be)for the population exchange and it perfectly fits the higher figures).Juro 20:13, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Juro, the total population of Hungary was 7,9 million in 1920, 8,6 million in 1930 and 9,3 million in 1941 (without regained territories). This is a rapid increase in absolute numbers so highly misleading to use 1930 data for 1920. It is possible that the situation was different with the different nationalities ie. probably Germans increased in absolute numbers and Slovaks decreased, I don't know. But the only possible way to establish post-Trianon data is to use the 1920 census numbers and mention in brackets your claim that "the official Hungarian statistical data from 1920 say that 399,170 citizens speak of the Slovak language" together with the citation. Although I don't understand at all - if the 1920 census numbers show "mother-language" as Romsics said what is this 400 000? Probably there were another question for second language knowledge or I don't know. Zello 05:50, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

You will not believe me, but I perfectly understand what you mean (the first thing I looked at was the 7.9 vs. 8.6 difference). I will try to divide this into several points:

• Point 1: Forget the 1941 numbers
• Point 2: The problem is that Hungarian censi distinguished between "true" (e.g.) Slovaks (what they classified by mother tongue, the most frequently spoken language etc. - whatever) and "untrue" Slovaks (what was classified as "Slovak speaking Hungarians" in 1910 and "Slovak speaking persons (minus "Slovaks")" in 1930). In reality however, this distinction does not make sense, because no Magyar would make himself "Slovak speaking", because using Slovak was virtually prohibited in practise and Slovaks were literally hated ("shepherds" etc.) and there was no reason to learn that language (rather the opposite). In other words the true number of Slovaks is the second number, i.e. that including "Slovak speaking Hungarians" (or whatever the name).
• Point 3: I am not sure that the "mother tongue" is what was really asked in 1920; it also frequently claimed that the mother tongue was asked in 1910, but that is not quite correct, the actual fact inserted in the forms was the most frequently spoken language in everyday life.
• Point 4: Now, the problem is that we could forget these differences between the lower and the higher numbers, if they were low (and that would be nothing new in the field of ethnicities), but the differences are huge both absolutely and relatively (more than 50% up to more than 100 % ) and this cannot be ignored.
• Point 5: As for the population increase: (1) There were no substantial population moves from /to abroad between 1920 and 1930 - at least not in these magnitudes. (2) The total population change between 1920 and 1930 was 8% - now compare that with the 50% and more differences for the minorities - that just does not make any sense. It is evident that this is a pure issue of census definitions. (3) The fertility of Slovaks was higher than average, therefore they would have to increase and not decrease. The fertility of Germans was lower than average, therefore they would have to decrease and not increase etc.
• Point 5: Let me repeat the official Hungarian numbers for Slovaks (rounded): 1910 (in 7 counties only) - 128 000 "Slovaks" + 158 700 "Slovak speaking Hungarians"; 1920 - 141 882 "Slovaks" + (399 000 - 141 882) "Slovak speaking Hungarians"; 1930 - 104 819 "Slovaks" + n/a (n/a for Slovaks; 473 000 counted for the population exchange in 1946). This clearly shows that 300 000 - 400 000 is a minimum estimate for the true number of Slovaks.
• Point 6: It would be very helpful to have the "speaking" (or whatever the names) numbers for the other nationalities for 1920 as well, but I am unable to find them. Don't you have detailed results for the 1920 census somewhere in a library or so? (Libraries are a problem in the summer, I know).

Juro 18:17, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

I also understand your point but I think the distinction wasn't between "true" Slovaks and "untrue" Slovaks but Slovaks by mother tongue/most frequently spoken language and Slovaks by national identity. The first should be the higher number because in the post-Trianon atmosphere it wasn't very popular to declare yourself Slovak although the language remained. There are other reasons mostly the process of assimiliation, merging of Hungarian (citizen) identity with Magyar identity etc.

But you are right: the only way to decide in the numbers is to look up more data. The National Library is open yet (until 1 August) so I will go there in Saturday and try to collect every information we need from the 1920 and 1930 census publications together with exact questions. Zello 14:25, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Excellent (and note that I put the word true under quotation marks). Juro 15:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

This is good work you are both doing, but I must say some of it borders on OR. Aren't there any systematic studies of these data by academics with clear conclusions we can cite? Perhaps multiple differing views? Dsol 14:48, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Searching for official census data is no original research. And as for analyses, I do not know such analyses, I only know mentions in (other) texts; in any case, there are no well-known studies or so about this. Juro 15:59, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Correct data

I went to the National Library and found the census data at last.

There were the same two questions in 1920 and 1930:

• "What is your mother language?"
• "What languages do you speak?"

There was no question about nationality in Hungarian censi until 1941.

The second question was about bilingualism and produced much higher data for minorities as the first one (of course the same is true for the Magyar language - it was mother language for 7'147'053 people in 1920 and was spoken by 7'722'441 people at the same time).

It is true that the percentage, the absolute numbers and even bilingualism was decreasing in the next decade. I have the same data for 1930 and all numbers are lower.

There is no way to establish the number of minorities from the second question. That question only shows how much people were able to speak Slovak. Among them certainly were people whose parents or grandparents spoke Slovak as a mother language but the family began assimilation. But there were people also who lived together with Slovaks and were able to express themselves on the language of their neighbours. It is the same as many Slovaks in present-day Komárno and Csallóköz speak some Hungarian but they are not Magyars at all. The high number of German speakers is obviosly a cultural phenomenon as German was widely taught in Hungarian secondary schools (ie. the same as the high number of English speakers now). We are not able to separate these two groups among the bilinguals in lack of other data. The problem wasn't raised by me but demographic historian József Kovacsics who presented the census data. Zello 18:37, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Does that mean that the second question (if it really went exactly like you are presenting it here - you probably mean "speak" not "spoke") resulted in data like "xy speak French", "xy speak English" etc., or what? This is very strange for a population census, if this was really the whole question without any additions. I can hardly imagine that the results contain the numbers of e.g. English speakers, but they should then... And as for Slovaks, the situation was different in 1910, there were no Slovak schools whatsoever anymore and it is impossible that there were 150 000 Slovaks, but also 150 000 (!) Magyars (unless they have at least a Slovak parent) speaking that language just because they are their neighbours, especially given that in 1910 the use of the language in the public was sanctioned (although officially not, of course). Such numbers - i.e. resulting only from "neigbourship" - would be impossible even in present-day Finland or so. Juro 19:18, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are English-speakers, French-speakers, Italian-speakers also (with smaller numbers as these languages were only spoken by the elite). As for the Slovaks there can be different groups among this plus 250 000 people:

• People with Slovak ancestry who were more fluent in Magyar than Slovak but they didn't forget the language of their parents totally
• Magyars living in Slovak villages who learned some Slovak
• Magyar civil servants who lived in Upper Hungary, learned Slovak there but left after Trianon (or anybody living in former Upper Hungary in the decades before Trianon)

I'm sure that the most populous of this groups were people with Slovak ancestry but 1, nobody knows their number; 2, they declared themselves that their mother language was already Magyar that time. Zello 20:28, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I'm not able to insert my references but here are:

• József Kovacsics: Magyarország történeti demográfiája : Magyarország népessége a honfoglalástól 1949-ig, Budapest : Közgazd. és Jogi Kiadó ; 1963 Budapest Kossuth Ny.

• Lajos Thirring: Az 1869-1980. évi népszámlálások története és jellemzői , Bp. : SKV, 1983

Zello 20:40, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "unable to insert" ??? Juro 03:21, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Although I see in the history section that you gave your reference but I don't see it in the article. But why? Zello 12:39, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Because I deleted it yesterday :)) (it is not used in the article anymore as a source). Juro 18:20, 23 July 2006 (UTC)

Juro is right here. --Eliade 19:57, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Weasel words

The article is full of them:

• Some demographers believe...
• On the other hand, many argue that ...
• Many Hungarians consider ...
• Some claim that the real motive...

etc. bogdan 15:56, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Second-class country

It's well accepted the idea that Austria-Hungary became a second-class country. Indeed Austria-Hungary also experienced economic progress especially in the late 19th century (without relying on colonization), but remained a European country with a relatively underdeveloped economy, a second-class regional power. Can one argue that is not true? --Eliade 07:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

(I wrote this before reading Zello's contribution:) Basically, this part is correct, but the question is: How is this relevant for the treaty? Because whether A-H grew or not in the late 19th century (it grew like all poor countries do when catching up with the advanced countries), the point is that it remained a very poor country compared to the west. Also, the development and level in Hungary was different than the development and level in the Austrian part and even within these parts there were huge differences in some cases. So, as far as I am concerned, I do not get the point here. Juro 17:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the treaty had economic consequences and there is reliable literature about this. If somebody have time and sources it is possible to make good contributions in this topic. Now this is not the case, we have only a simplified sentence that doesn't make the article better. The article was fairly NPOV until now and I would like preseverve this against attempts like "second-class country" or "ouright racist treaty". Zello 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the rest of course, but note that economic CONSEQUENCES (i.e. changes after the treaty) for the countries in question are something totally different from the general economic situation BEFORE the treaty, especially given that the sentence referred to a territory covering not only the KoH. Such issues belong to the A-H article (and actually they are already there).Juro 18:40, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Absolutely agree - this is why I deleted the sentence with my revert together with the other problematic new paragraph inserted by Giordano. Zello 18:49, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There were big differences in the economic development of the countries and provinces of Austria-Hungary. We are speaking about a country which was so varied that contained Tyrol and Bukovina. These differences were several hundred years old and products of totally different historical development. The Monarchy as an integrated econimic unit had a positive effect on the underdeveloped provinces in the second half of 19th century. There was a process of regional integration and economic development which was broken by WW1. As for second-class country - Austria-Hungary was traditionally a member of the "European concert", one of the main powers of the continent because of it size and military strength. Tsarist Russia was more underdeveloped than Austria-Hungary but wasn't considered a second-class country at all. Zello 17:43, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

I think the way it decayed and desintegrate very quickly after only some decades, it's a measure of "great" it was.--Eliade 17:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Austria-Hungary was the successor of the Habsburg Empire which existed in Europe almost 500 years. That's not some decades. Zello 18:32, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Here it's about something else. Austria lost so much during Habsburg so that they accepted an alliance with Hungary. Even this solution proved to be a temporary solution. --Eliade 10:36, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Every solution is "temporary" because every country disappear sooner or later. The Habsburg Empire with its 500 years lifetime certainly existed long enough to shape the history of Europe. Zello 16:00, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

It may also be worthwhile to enter into the analysis that today many of the successor states are economic disasters. The only consistent exception to this is Austria (and even that only after WWII). Slovenia has been successful for the last decade, if this tendency keeps up, all the better, on the other hand Transylvania nowadays is much more below the European average than it was during Habsburg times, it is hardly above the Third World. One has to wonder whether the purpose of the treaty was to create a new Dark Ages. And as far as Juro's comment: no, Czechoslovakia was never an economic superpower. The Czech side was reasonably industrialized, and this had some benefits, but to consider CS among the world's strongest economies is a severe overstatement. (Have you driven a Skoda before it became VW?)

The A-H was a regional superpower with a reasonable economic status. It was not behind the "West" economically: the situation of those who emigrated to the US was hardly better after emigration, since they usually fell for the "in America the streets are paved with gold" myth. It is also questionable in the case of Fiume, Istria, Friuli, Trieste whether they were better off during the monarchy than afterwards. Considering ethnic strife certainly not.

At last: to suggest ethnic bias or racism is not inappropriate nor is it POV. After all the article itself states that Sopron was the only place allowed to have a plebiscite (this fact renders the censuses made after the treaty somewhat questionable, since the new countries forced its citizens to take loyalty oaths: for example the family of the writer Hamvas refused to take the Slovak nationality oath, and were for this reason expelled from Slovakia). Giordano Giordani 09:06, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

The truth is that even Benes himself conceded that with a plebiscite, they would never have been able to create Czechoslovakia, especially in the present-day eastern Slovakia (which still has a sizeable Rusyn population), the people were more Magyar-oriented.

The fact that present-day countries that were part of the former Yugoslavia are today economic disasters have nothing to do with the Treaty of Trianon. It is simply a consequence of the Yugoslav wars during the 1990s. Before these wars Yugoslavia was economicaly developed country. For example, Vojvodina was economically most developed in 1974-1990 period (most developed in its history I mean). On the contrary, it was poorest when it was ruled by Austria-Hungary. PANONIAN (talk) 12:40, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, other countries such as Romania, Ukraine, or Slovakia also do not have bad economy because of this treaty, but because of the former communist regimes that ruled over these countries. Tell me, why Austria do not have bad economy if this treaty affected it so much? PANONIAN (talk) 12:45, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Can you tell me why Hungary's economy is not "bad" even if it was a communist country itself?

I am sure that you will tell me. PANONIAN (talk) 23:34, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

For one, the Kádár regime was more liberal and less dogmatic than all of the other Communist countries of the world, I remember in the 80s, taking a trip to Romania or Czechoslovakia was like a trip back in time. I'm sure you have heard of the expression "Goulash Communism".

Giordano XY, the best answer to your edits and comments is that they are just a big mess and collection of nonsense. What Panonian says is very trivial and clear to everybody from Central Europe, but obviously someone has to tell you that explicitely. As for Czechoslovakia, if you need a number it was among the 10 most advanced countries in the whole world between the two world wars. And we could go on like this endlessly. So just do no try to invent associations where there are no associations. A treaty is not responsible for the history of the 20th century. Juro 15:43, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

So you are saying that the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy was a backward country but somehow, after the creation of Czechoslovakia, this situation changed suddenly and miraculously, giving rise to one of the superpowers of the world. Go figure!

If a sub-chapter on the nationalities of post-Trianon Hungary is included, a similar sub-chapter should detail the history of the Hungarian minorities in the successor states. Árpád 08:03, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear fascist vandal, first of all you as a person that should have been banned 6 mpnths ago, should go to h...; secondly, obviously - like always - you have problems with basic rational thinking (things like bigger territory, smaller territory, uneven spread of production inputs etc. are too difficult for you, I know - because everything that does not concern Hungary or Hungarians is too difficult for you). So as an "answer", visit an elementary school again, such an institution will provide you with the necessary answers. Juro 03:19, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

The answer is again very simple: the country named Czechoslovakia was created from two parts of the Austro-Hungarian Monarchy which were indeed undergoing rapid industrialization during the Monarchy years but the cultural elite in the former Bohemia was German (Prague itself was a German speaking city for much of its history, and for a long time in history, Bohemia itself had belonged to the German empire, to the point that the Bohemian king was an elector of the emperor) and in the former Felvidék it was Hungarian (and to a lesser part, German). Incidentally, even elements of popular culture like Czech beer (Pilsner, Budweiser) were developed by Germans, not to mention Becherovka, which is originally Karlsbader Becherbitter. As for Slovak folk culture, one just needs to listen to typical Slovak folk music to appreciate that much of it has been derived from Hungarian folk music (like csárdás, verbunkos) except that this fact (again, just simple facts, no personal attacks or deletion of the comments of others) has been suppressed by the forced cultural assimilation policies that were going on in present-day Slovakia since 1920. Whatever insults you may write, I can corroborate each of my statements with hard core facts. Moreover, the destruction of the economic unity of the Central European space (or the Carpathian basin for that matter where - as Apponyi put it - the rivers were still flowing towards the Hungarian plain and not towards Prague, but the problem of the Tot rafters trying to sell their merchandise was not the only one that caused the economic and cultural decline of the former Felvidék - a perfect natural geographic and economic unity was dismembered). Finally, if Czechoslovakia was so perfect, how come the greatest Slovak national heros (like Hlinka who ended up on the fascist side) complained about the fictitious "Czechoslovak" nation and being treated as a colony by Prague or having suffered as much during several month of Czech occupation as during decades of Hungarian rule. See this link for instance, written by an independent author: http://www.hungarian-history.hu/lib/bonsal/bonsal11.htm. Meanwhile, it is also important to point out the double standard applied at the peace conference: Bohemia was allowed to retain its historical borders despite including millions of Germans... (in fact it is also worth mentioning that the ratio of the German population was much higher than the Slovaks at that time, since the latter didn't even form an absolute majority in what was to become Slovakia). Árpád 03:11, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

Jesus, like always with you: every single sentence you are saying is a lie - in other words it is so wrong that actually the exact opposite holds (current Hungarian "folk" is mostly derived from the lokal Slavic folk and not vice versa etc. etc.). Irrespective of this: Like always, you have written a typical irrational long fascist hypernational elaborate here that is completeley unrelated to the very technical topic at hand. But even if 0you wrote a poem, that does not change the fact that what you have been trying to deny above holds because these are pure numbers and logics. You can equally claim that the Earth is plane, that is the same. And like always: Any further such lies will be deleted by me, if this wikipedia and other Hungarian users are unable to cope with you, this is the only way how to prevent the spread of fascism and idiotism in this wikipedia. Juro 12:49, 18 August 2006 (UTC)