Talk:Indian nationalism: Difference between revisions

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Revision as of 01:50, 21 August 2006 editCiteCop (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users717 edits →I requested sources for this material over a week ago and somebody just rv'd it back in w/o providing sources ← Previous edit		Revision as of 02:11, 21 August 2006 edit undoShiva's Trident (talk \| contribs)2,622 edits →I requested sources for this material over a week ago and somebody just rv'd it back in w/o providing sources Next edit →
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	{{cquote\|*Ancient Indian town of ] was home to the ], the world's oldest university.		{{cquote\|*Ancient Indian town of ] was home to the ], the world's oldest university.

			:This is mentioned by Megasthenes. Read ROMILA THAPAR's (ugh!) "Ashoka and the decline of the Mauryas" (for once, that vaulted old hag got something right).] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
⚫	*It is now generally accepted that India was the birth place of several mathematical concepts, including ], the ],], ], ] and ]. The concept of zero origininated in Indian philosophy's concept of "sunya", literally "void". ] referred to Algebra (as Bijaganitam) in his treatise on mathematics named '''Aryabhattiya'''. A 12th century mathematician, ], authored several mathematical treatises; one of them, '''Siddantha Shiromani''', has a chapter on algebra. He is known to have given the basic idea of ] and was the first to conceive of ]. In 1816, ] translated Bhaskaracharya's Leelavati into English.
			*It is now generally accepted that India was the birth place of several mathematical concepts, including ], the ],], ], ] and ].
			:Look at the index page of the NCERT text book on maths (tenth standard). All the shlokas that they cite from ancient texts clearly show cube-root and square-root calculations (sqrt(2) was calculated to 3rd place of decimal).] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)


		⚫	The concept of zero origininated in Indian philosophy's concept of "sunya", literally "void". ] referred to Algebra (as Bijaganitam) in his treatise on mathematics named '''Aryabhattiya'''. A 12th century mathematician, ], authored several mathematical treatises; one of them, '''Siddantha Shiromani''', has a chapter on algebra. He is known to have given the basic idea of ] and was the first to conceive of ]. In 1816, ] translated Bhaskaracharya's Leelavati into English.
			:This is well known man.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

	The ] and ] internationalized these mathematical concepts. Persian mathematician] developed a technique of calculation that became known as "algorism." Al-Khwarizmi’s work was translated into ] under the title Algoritmi de numero Indorum, meaning "The System of Indian Numerals." A mathematician in Arabic is called Hindsa, which means "from India."		The ] and ] internationalized these mathematical concepts. Persian mathematician] developed a technique of calculation that became known as "algorism." Al-Khwarizmi’s work was translated into ] under the title Algoritmi de numero Indorum, meaning "The System of Indian Numerals." A mathematician in Arabic is called Hindsa, which means "from India."
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	# Theorizing about ].		# Theorizing about ].
	#Determining that ] is a ].		#Determining that ] is a ].
			:Fine up until here.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
	# Determining the number of planets in the ].		# Determining the number of planets in the ].
			:Ancient Indians did not (could not) know abt Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. These planets can only be detected by modern telescopes or gravimetric measurements, and they didnot have the equipment back then. They knew abt the rings of satun. You can see them with the naked eye even today (on a clear night).] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
	*Indian philosopher, Pakudha ], a contemporary of ], also propounded the ideas of atomic constitution of the material world.		*Indian philosopher, Pakudha ], a contemporary of ], also propounded the ideas of atomic constitution of the material world.
			:Crudely, but correctly.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

	:Similarly, the ] (not to be confused with Einstein's theory of relativity) was available in the ancient Indian philosophical concept of "''sapekshavadam''" (c. 6th century BC), literally "''theory of relativity''" in Sanskrit.		:Similarly, the ] (not to be confused with Einstein's theory of relativity) was available in the ancient Indian philosophical concept of "''sapekshavadam''" (c. 6th century BC), literally "''theory of relativity''" in Sanskrit.
			::Not buying this though. This assertion is dubious.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

	:Several ancient ]n texts speak of the relativity of time and space. The ] and astronomer ] (476-550) was aware of the relativity of motion, which is clear from a passage in his book: "''Just as a man in a boat sees the trees on the bank move in the opposite direction, so an observer on the equator sees the stationary stars as moving precisely toward the west.''"		:Several ancient ]n texts speak of the relativity of time and space. The ] and astronomer ] (476-550) was aware of the relativity of motion, which is clear from a passage in his book: "''Just as a man in a boat sees the trees on the bank move in the opposite direction, so an observer on the equator sees the stationary stars as moving precisely toward the west.''"
			::Also dubious.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
			:These theories have attracted attention of the Indologists, and veteran Australian Indologist ] has concluded that "they were brilliant imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics.}}
			:::Fact.] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

	:These theories have attracted attention of the Indologists, and veteran Australian Indologist ] has concluded that "they were brilliant imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics.}}I'll be frank. I find this material very doubtful. But as a ''courtesy'', instead of removing this material outright, I have instead moved it to this talk page to give people a chance to provide ].<br>] 01:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)		I'll be frank. I find this material very doubtful. But as a ''courtesy'', instead of removing this material outright, I have instead moved it to this talk page to give people a chance to provide ].<br>] 01:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
			::Most of these are well-known in the academic community. The only people who question them are:
			:White Nationalists
			:Fundamentalist Muslims
			:Marxists (Even Marxists like Romila Thapar have scholarly proof as to the veracity of most of the above claims)
			] 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Revision as of 02:11, 21 August 2006

Template:WikiProject Politics of India

List of archived discussions
Archive 1

A fresh start

And hopefully a good one, feedback on inclusion of Indian cuisine and fashion would be appreciated. Freedom skies 03:16, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

D'you reckon the dot points should be prosified? Nobleeagle (Talk) 07:32, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

The dot points should go in the Indian military achievements but it's my opinion that they stay in the belief in the ancient nature section, as they highlight the nature of the Indian civilization and it's achievements. What I don't get is why the encylopedic squad highlighted the depressing aspect of history with a sombre tone to boot in an article that's about indian pride, anyways I edited that.Freedom skies 03:22, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Belief in the ancient nature of the Indian civilization

"This sentiment may catch new momentum if the archeological survey near Dwarka completes the unearthing of a civilization which might be the oldest in human history, thereby making India the cradle of human civilization."

Mehrgarh, Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa are all older than Dwarka.

"India is one of the cradles of mathematics, the Indian civilization is credited with mathematical inventions including zero, the decimal number system, algebra, trigonometry and calculus. Indians such as Bhaskaracharya calculated the time taken by the earth to orbit the Sun hundreds of years before the astronomer Smart. According to his calculation, the time taken by the Earth to orbit the Sun was 365.258756484 days. The value of "pi" was first calculated by the Indian mathematician Baudhayana, and he explained the concept of what is known as the Pythagorean theorem. He discovered this in the 8th-7th centuries BC, long before the European mathematicians."

I could not find citations for this bullet. The sources kept giving credit to others. Perhaps another editor will have better luck.

Regarding the decimal system, base-ten number systems are nearly universal because people are generally born with 10 fingers.

With regard to zero, Seife and Kaplan, in separate works devoted to the history of zero, both give credit to the Babylonians for the invention of zero. Both were published in autumn of 2000, which means they're relatively up to date.

As for algebra, trigonometry, calculus, etc., other ancient civilizations—the Babylonians, Egyptians, Greeks and Chinese—each have a claim to at least one of these and without sources these attributions can't be verified or compared.

For the rest, we are given specifics, such as attributions to named individuals, but again, these can't be verified w/o sources. CiteCop 18:20, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Zero invented by Babylonians --- what bull.... Even the Arabs who overran Babylon credited the hindu arabic numeral system to India. I'm not sure about Algebra, calculus etc, but the hindu arabic numeral system is one Indian invention that the world needs to be grateful for.

1. There is NO need to be rude.

2. If you'll note, I did not remove 'The numerals called "Arabic" in the West actually come from the Indian Brahmi script' so your comment about the Hindu Arabic numeral system is irrelevant.

3. Zero: The Biography of a Dangerous Idea and The Nothing That Is: A Natural History of Zero, two books focused entirely on the history of zero, give credit to the Babylonians, so it is not "generally accepted" that India is the birthplace of zero.

CiteCop 01:35, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The new stuff

The citations are there in the new links and related books are mentioned as well, which should be available in any public library of repute if you want to see them. Anyways, try to shorten up the article a bit, after all this work I'm too tired to summarize the article. Also, brilliant work for the editor who does all the grammer editing around here, the language is great and does not have the sombre funeral tone of the earlier encyclopedic squad. Good Work.Freedom skies 22:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

INDIAN PATRIOTISM

This article should either be moved to Indian Patriotism or renamed to Indian forms of Nationalism and Patriotism to reduce the level of emphasis on Ethnic difference within the Indian subcontinent. In particular, it is useful and necessary to consider the scientific basis of nationalisms both historically and currently (in relation to genetic similarity and the cladistic foundations of racial classifications).

The concept of Indian Nationalism does not need to be precarious (especially in regards to their surrounding populations - Indians can certainly claim that they have a variety of distinguishing features that make them significantly different from those that surround them), so overly emphasising the sub-nationalisms of other groups within India is not advisable. In fact, if anything productive is to be done with this article, perhaps the phrase India Nationalism can be further justified through various aspects that unite the Indian people (which may/may not involve foreign threats, competition and the fact that India is still a developing country in a world which a far over-representative power capability for the Old Industrial North). AxSingh 22:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

However, the primary logical basis for thi

If you want to say it...

...cite it. JFD 17:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The martial practices at the temple of Shaolin were initiated by Indian monk Bodhidharma. Martial arts such as Kung Fu, Jujutsu, Karate and Judo trace it's origins to Indian martial arts. Indian martial arts have also influenced relatively modern martial arts such as catch wrestling, shoot wrestling and Brazillian Jiu Jitsu.

Before you go all "Cite it", try reading the articles on catch wrestling and shoot wrestling on wikipedia itself. You should find all your "Cite it" answers there. In other words, before you try removing things from people's articles "READ IT" Freedom skies 20:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Reliable sources: "Misplaced Pages cannot cite itself as a source—that would be a self-reference." JFD 22:38, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Try reading the articles before you go all lawyer-ish, you should find a few links that should have enough citation, that and a membership to scientificwrestling.com should help. Freedom skies 03:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

This is a citation:

"Indian wrestling dates back at least to the eleventh century AD (Alter 1992:2).

Alter, Joseph S. (1992). The Wrestler's Body: Identity and Ideology in North India. Berkeley: University of California Press. ISBN 0-520-07697."

Or even this would suffice:

"Joseph Alter dates wrestling in India at least to the eleventh century AD."

Also note the source: a book published by a university press by a faculty professor writing about his area of recognized academic expertise—Indian physical culture, about which he has authored or edited several other works—as opposed to professors of linguistics opining about politics or computer science pontificating about ancient history. Sources with this level of authority, though not always available, are preferred when they are. JFD 05:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The second example is merely attribution, not true citation, though it is better than nothing. It tells the reader that Joseph Alter is the source for the date given, but does not give the reader enough information to verify whether the source is, in fact, being correctly cited, as the first example does. CiteCop 23:25, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

npov

This article seems to state that indian nationalism revolves around a certain set of ideas... the problem is that most indians do not believe in these ideas. There is no evidence that any indian historians of note support any of these historical ideas that this article is stating. Further, it seems that some indian historians like tharpa at harvard disagree with many of these ideas. They seem to be the ideas of a minority of indians grouped together into one article. Some of them are sort of ridiculous and the factual content questionable as is discussed above. This article is similar to writing an article on american nationalism and then stating that most americans believe in "white supremacy," that america is the "best country in the world", and that america is the "birthplace of democracy"... those ideas that i mentioned of course are NOT held by the majority of americans. Steelhead 21:50, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes, America IS the birthplace of democracy.Netaji 21:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

American Nationalists say nothing of the sort. American nationalism is not the same as "White Nationalism", which is what you refer to above. America, like India, is a synthesis of many races. The comparison of Indian nationalism with WN does not apply here as the strengths of Indian Nationalism are precisely the points which WN people condemn (diversity). They are virtual opposites in ideology. American Nationalists are perfectly aware of the multi-ethnic nature of their country.Netaji 21:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

this article does not really discuss the subject of indian nationalism as in other articles on nationalism (like chinese nationalism) so much as it presents supposed "facts" that are questionable in its truthfullness that supposedly, the vast majority of indians believe in. if you want to talk about indian nationalism then you should talk about the history of indian nationalism and the nationlistic movement. You shouldn't present supposed "facts" that indians believe in (with no proof that the majority of indians believe in it) and supposed versions of history. this article seems to present views that the writer of the article believes in. Steelhead 20:58, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Quite frankly, Thapar is a biased pseudoscholar who can't be quoted without qualification as to her Marxist leanings (Plus, she has nothing to do with Harvard).Plus, all the claims here are properly referenced from legit sources. There are many academics like Will Durant, Rajiv Malhotra, Edwin Bryant and Jawaharlal Nehru, for instance, who support many of these facts quite adequately, thank you.Netaji 21:02, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

I requested sources for this material over a week ago and somebody just rv'd it back in w/o providing sources

“

Ancient Indian town of Taxila was home to the Takshashila University, the world's oldest university.

This is mentioned by Megasthenes. Read ROMILA THAPAR's (ugh!) "Ashoka and the decline of the Mauryas" (for once, that vaulted old hag got something right).Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

It is now generally accepted that India was the birth place of several mathematical concepts, including zero, the decimal system,algebra, algorithm, square root and cube root.

Look at the index page of the NCERT text book on maths (tenth standard). All the shlokas that they cite from ancient texts clearly show cube-root and square-root calculations (sqrt(2) was calculated to 3rd place of decimal).Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The concept of zero origininated in Indian philosophy's concept of "sunya", literally "void". Aryabhatta referred to Algebra (as Bijaganitam) in his treatise on mathematics named Aryabhattiya. A 12th century mathematician, Bhaskaracharya, authored several mathematical treatises; one of them, Siddantha Shiromani, has a chapter on algebra. He is known to have given the basic idea of Rolle's Theorem and was the first to conceive of differential calculus. In 1816, James Taylor translated Bhaskaracharya's Leelavati into English.

This is well known man.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

The Arabs and Persians internationalized these mathematical concepts. Persian mathematicianAl-Khawarizmi developed a technique of calculation that became known as "algorism." Al-Khwarizmi’s work was translated into Latin under the title Algoritmi de numero Indorum, meaning "The System of Indian Numerals." A mathematician in Arabic is called Hindsa, which means "from India."

Ancient India’s contributions to astronomy are well known and documented. The earliest references to astronomy are found in the Rig Veda, which dates back to 1500 BC. By 500 AD, ancient Indian astronomy emerged as an important part of Indian studies and its affect is seen in several treatises of that period. In some instances, astronomical principles were borrowed to explain matters pertaining to astrology, like casting of a horoscope. Apart from this link of astronomy to astrology in ancient India, science of astronomy continued to develop independently, and culminated in original findings, like:

The calculation of occurrences of eclipses.
Calculation of Earth’s circumference.
Theorizing about gravity.
Determining that Sun is a star.

Fine up until here.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Determining the number of planets in the Solar System.

Ancient Indians did not (could not) know abt Uranus, Neptune, Pluto. These planets can only be detected by modern telescopes or gravimetric measurements, and they didnot have the equipment back then. They knew abt the rings of satun. You can see them with the naked eye even today (on a clear night).Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Indian philosopher, Pakudha Katyayana, a contemporary of Buddha, also propounded the ideas of atomic constitution of the material world.

Crudely, but correctly.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Similarly, the principle of relativity (not to be confused with Einstein's theory of relativity) was available in the ancient Indian philosophical concept of "sapekshavadam" (c. 6th century BC), literally "theory of relativity" in Sanskrit.

Not buying this though. This assertion is dubious.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Several ancient Indian texts speak of the relativity of time and space. The mathematician and astronomer Aryabhata (476-550) was aware of the relativity of motion, which is clear from a passage in his book: "Just as a man in a boat sees the trees on the bank move in the opposite direction, so an observer on the equator sees the stationary stars as moving precisely toward the west."

Also dubious.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

These theories have attracted attention of the Indologists, and veteran Australian Indologist A. L. Basham has concluded that "they were brilliant imaginative explanations of the physical structure of the world, and in a large measure, agreed with the discoveries of modern physics.

”

Fact.Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll be frank. I find this material very doubtful. But as a courtesy, instead of removing this material outright, I have instead moved it to this talk page to give people a chance to provide reliable sources.
CiteCop 01:48, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of these are well-known in the academic community. The only people who question them are:

White Nationalists

Fundamentalist Muslims

Marxists (Even Marxists like Romila Thapar have scholarly proof as to the veracity of most of the above claims)

Netaji 02:11, 21 August 2006 (UTC)