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Metal Unassessed

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It's Not About Your Favorite Band

I've been watching this article for a while, and it seems like people are too focused on particular bands. Some major figures such as Sabbath, Priest, Maiden, and Metallica are candidates for more lengthy discussion, but couldn't minor figures just get put on to a list at the end of each history section? Or maybe put a link to a more detailed article with a list of bands? Anon August 14, 2006

Queen

Queen have been recognized as pioneers of heavy metal. Queen(1973), Queen II(1974), and Sheer Heart Attack(1974) are heavy metal. A Night at the Opera, News of the World, and others have heavy metal on them. Thay have mixed heavy metal with arena rock, glam rock, progressive rock, punk rock, and even opera. - Mtmtmt 05:29, 18 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, that's true. But your point is . . . ? WesleyDodds 06:22, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

the article on alt. metal

is too short and really says nothing about the genre except that some people don't like it, list a few band names and mention the connection to grunge that only has to do with a few alt. metal and nu metal bands.

The appropriate venue to list your contentions is the Alternative metal page. WesleyDodds 22:44, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

"Metallian"

A spammer keeps adding this poor quality site to the links. If you have a look at their edits, their sole purpose on Misplaced Pages is adding this site to links of bands pages . - Deathrocker 19:13, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Classical influence exaggerated a bit (?)

This has been bothering me for a while. The infobox would lead you to believe that classical music is an overarching influence on metal, but the text within the article doesn't back the claim up, beyond mentioning Ritchie Blackmore, Yngwie, Randy Rhoads and the tenuous Iron Maiden bit at the end of the section. maxcap 23:41, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, the classical influence really doesn't come into metal until the late 70's, then becomes a bit pervasive in the 80s before becoming restricted to genres like power metal and gothic metal in the present day. Certainly the original metal bands didn't really have it; this encyclopedia of rock music assembled by the NME in 1977 I was looking at the other day referred to Led Zeppelin as the definitive heavy metal band, and they mainly came from a blues background. It's a major part of metal's history, but maybe it could be reworked a little. WesleyDodds 22:29, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

So, I've been having a hell of a time finding a reference for the 'Maiden Powerslave comparison in the last paragraph, can anyone help provide a source? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What?!? There's no Classical influences in metal. Classical music is restrained and controled. Romantic music is the previous type of music that you're looking for. JMan8088

Paul Gilbert deserves mention in this section, he did an article in total guitar on Bach and performed fugue in D major for that particular magazine, also to note many of the techniques and phrases he uses seem similar to the ones found throughout that song. Also Jason Becker (Cacophony) should be mentioned and he is well known for his performance of Paganini's 5th Caprice. Also I think Steve Vai has done a performance of Beethoven's 5th Symphony. Speed/thrash metal should get mention here in my opinion.

I don't agree with you, Paul Gilbert and Jason Becker probably aren't notable enough for the main article; Vai, maybe, but he isn't known for his classical influence. There is an article on shred guitar that could use some expansion though. maxcap 17:41, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

I was reffering to them being mentioned in the context of classical influence in heavy metal and nothing more.

So, why is Mozart grouped with Franz Lizst? Lizst wrote some of the most metal non-metal music ever, and lived a pretty metal lifestyle. Maybe he wasn't a specific influence, but I think a better example should be used as to what kind of "classical" music (speaking broadly, not periodically) was not influential to metal.

Also this is where speed metal and shred should be mentioned without a doubt, few mainstream bands actually took up much influence and it IS people like Paul Gilbert, Jason Becker, Marty Friedman, Dream Theatre, Joe Satriani etc that actually look to classical for some influence, this is grossly biased towards 70s mainstream metal.

Classical Music in the genrebox

I question the influence of classical music being pervasive enough to warrant it's inclusion as a primary influence in the genre box. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? maxcap 18:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

What is meant by "classical"?==== Metal has little to no classical influence, periodically speaking. It has LOADS of baroque influence as far as improvisation goes, and romantic influence in the general mindset, especially more symphonic metal bands.

I think it's being used as a generalization for all those periods, and I'm fully aware of it's influence on guitar playing; do you feel that this influence is enough to cite it as a primary influence, like it's being used in the genre-box? maxcap 01:45, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

maxcap - i reverted your change removing classical from the genre box because unfortunately a big chunk of the end of the article also got removed, which i assume was accidental. thought about removing the reference in the genrebox, but as i have no opinion on the matter, i figured i'd leave that to you--Ultranaut 06:26, 27 June 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps it should say European art music, or Western concert music, to avoid possible confusions about the word "classical"?

Prince... metal?

The solo at the end of "Let's Go Crazy" might be a swell bit of guitar virtuosity, but the song itself isn't metal. The most we can say is that the track is a bouncy pop song smacked with a tasteful edge. However, we can't expect anyone to argue that it is a "metal" song. Making a reference to it on the Heavy Metal entry is just baffling.

I think perhaps somebody was joking? - Deathrocker 20:03, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Danzig and Type O Negative

I think the two were significantly relevent enough during the 90s to warrant a mention in the article, and perhaps a mention of the high level of heavy metal influence in Alice In Chains music too.

It wouldn't really fit in with the nu-metal section, anybody have any ideas? - Deathrocker 20:06, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, Danzig Alice in Chains are examples of Alternative metal; Danzig influenced by gothic rock, deathrock and punk (with Glenn Danmzigs history in The Misfits and Samhain (band), and Alice with grunge/alternative rock. Both were part of the wave of alternative metal that also included bands that would eventually influence nu metal. Type O Negative were part of a brief revival of early heavy metal that Danzig are arguably also part of - Type O Neg's metal was slow and scary more than fast and angry, like Black Sabbath. I'll edit the article now. --Switch 00:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Well I just noticed that Pantera aren't really mentioned either, and I remimber them being massively popular in the early 90's, maybe something could be worked together with all those bands? maxcap 01:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, a brief mention of groove metal happening via Pantera should be included too. --Switch 05:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The section on Type O Negative is probably a little too thorough for this article's scope. A sentence or two should be fine. WesleyDodds 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Is it wise....

To have the subgenres abreviated in the info box as so...

If somebody is just reading through the article, it could be confusing, as it says "Folk" rather than "Folk metal" as a subgenre, and "Glam" rather than "Glam Metal", for example. Shouldn't it be fully typed out, to avoid confusion for those who are just reading this article? - Deathrocker 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

So unabbreviate them if it makes sense, but dont violate policy and projects in the process. Ley Shade 23:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Regarding the edit summary, You do realise WP:HMM isn't an official authority on Misplaced Pages articles don't you?.. decisions for articles are made on their appropriate talkpages, after discussion... like HERE for example (that is what the talkpages are for). WP:HMM is just an unofficial group for people on Misplaced Pages who say they like some form of metal music... and wish to work together on/create some articles.

You do not have to be part of WP:HMM to edit metal articles on here, its an open encyclopedia, not an (invisible) democracy to quote Jimbo Wales. If people who are members of WP:HMM wish to come over to this article and discuss the inclusion of certain information logically then, cool, lets see them do so.. a "yes, no" poll on some unofficial group not even on the articles talkpage doesn't have authority over articles.

In this articles info box it states "-- Note: Due to major debate that springs up from time to time and edits that might compromise the article's integrity, please discuss any major changes to this article on the Talk Page first. --" this was not done yet for such large sections to be blanked. - Deathrocker 23:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree, the "poll" is inherently biased. maxcap 00:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Not to mention all the fusion genres are removed, which are supposed to be included in the infobox. Plus, as far as I remember, the original Wikiproject discussion only concerned the footer that's placed on every genre page, no the main infobox that tries to tie everything together and is inherently more detailed and informative. WesleyDodds 03:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The poll was advertised on this page, and messaged most everyone who was doing work on this article about it as well. If they chose not take part before closing, thats their problem. Consensus still stands. 81.157.94.111 11:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't advertised very well, and this link doesn't show this page linking in. I would think it would be evident to someone who refers to NPOV as consistantly as you, that the poll is biased. It's like polling conservative Christians on the validity of evolution. My biggest problem is the same as Wesley's, the fusion genres, they need to stay. Regardless of how "true metal" they are, they are related enough to warrant inclusion. Plus, and this is important, it makes exploring wikipedia fun. maxcap 16:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The problem with the Fusion Genres is that most of the ones listed are either Non-Existant or not fusion genres. 23:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Ley Shade

Alternative metal - Christian metal - Funk metal - Grindcore - Industrial metal - Metalcore - Nu metal - Rapcore - Stoner metal - Symphonic metal Out of these which do you consider non-fusion or non existant? the only ones I question are syphonic metal, christian metal ; rapcore is probably more derivitive of alt metal, as is nu-metal. I don't know anything about stoner metal so i can't say. maxcap 23:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Stoner metal should be listed under subgenres. It's not a fusion with anything. WesleyDodds 06:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

It´s interesting, but Symphonic Metal is to me a tangible and clear sub-genre. So, I think it´s better to try to enconpass all so-called subgenres, because it´s better to include something wrong than missing something right :-) Loudenvier 16:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I agree with that, I'm just completely ignorant regarding Symphonic Metal so I can't voice any sort of educated opinion on it. Same with stoner metal, except that I own a couple of Clutch albums.maxcap 17:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

lost some data (yikes!)

I lost some data in the process of archiving, and I'm not able to edit a previous version to move it over. Can anyone help? maxcap 00:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I've left a message at the village pump hopefully someone will fix it, sorry folks. maxcap 01:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I'll sort it out... keeping more recent/crreunt discussions on this page, the rest archieved. - Deathrocker 01:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

OK... that should be better now, got the data back and kept some of the more current discussion on here. - Deathrocker 01:52, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Awesome! thank you maxcap 02:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

simple rhythms

This seems inaccurate. What about progressive metal, technical death, and many other VERY rhythmically complex subgenresgenres? Metal now contains some of the most rhythmically complex music in existence. Even in less complex subgenres, the rhythms are more complex than in many other forms of music - guitar rhythms, at least, in thrash, etc. I would say that the majority of metal is far more rhythmically complex than most mainstream rock!

I know this is a load of crap, if heavy metal (let alone sub genres such as speed metal) have simple rhythms then what does music like rap or pop have?!

A few users have deleted it (including me) but a couple of users have also restored. Shouldn't there be a consensus in regards to that part of the article as well as a much better and more in depth paragraph to replace the current under "characteristics"

Yeah, I just deleted part of that quote again - even the heavy distortion thing isn't always true, just look at Queensryche's Operation Mindcrime. Then again, that's pretty relative. There are lots of non-metal genres now that have far heavier guitars than some metal, especially early stuff.

External links

We need to seriously discuss what should be in the external links section of this page. Links keep getting removed and inserted on a regular basis by both registered and unregistered users. WesleyDodds 00:46, 20 June 2006 (UTC)

Regional Scenes

It seems that Gothenburg Metal now redirects to Melodic Death Metal, in my opinion we need something that seperates the early Scandavian Metal Scene from other early extreme ends, Perhaps we can fix Scandavian Death Metal to a more generic Scandavian Metal, which would include the early Norweigan Dark Metal and the Gothenburg Scene? I realize that the main page for this may not be the best place for the discussion, but the infobox includes Gotheburg as a region and its not longer a seperate page. Atechi 23:42 24 June 2006

Eurovision

Is the small part on eurovision all that necessary? Lordi are by no means an important part of heavy metal nor is the eurovision win a milestone in heavy metal.

Lordi is not heavy metal or any subgenre of it either. They should be mentioned only in -maybe- hard rock. --EpiC-- 22:28, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's all that notable in the greater context of heavy metal, especially given that the page is already big enough. I could stand to lose it. WesleyDodds 08:44, 18 July 2006 (UTC)

Now it's been moved to the Characteristics section. That just makes the Eurovision section more superfluous than before. WesleyDodds 08:34, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Lordi are deffinetly part of heavy metal. And Eurovision is a high key international event... it should be mentioned somewhere in the article as it is notable. - Deathrocker 10:29, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Eurovision is a high key international event? Don't think so, Lordi was barely mentioned in the news and there was the odd reference in tv shows at the time but the thing pretty much blew over by the end of that week

It may be a "key international event", but is it really that notable in the greater context of the article. And if so, does it deserve the amount of space afforded to it? WesleyDodds 21:47, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Deathrocker, Eurovision is a much hyped high key event. You will understand the extent of Eurovision's popularity when I will tell you one thing. That being, Lordi winning Eurovision was one of the big news in my native country India, which happens to be a third world country. And let me tell you, the news coverage was extensive, not to mention coverage in the newspapers. "Lordi happens to be the first heavy metal group to win Eurovision" roared the international sections. Now, I am back in Europe and I can tell that the hype here is pretty much big as well. So, let the section remain.

--NRS 13:42, 19 July 2006 (UTC)

Maybe an section titled "awards" or "industry recognition" or something like that could be created that way the Eurovision thing could be integrated with othe awards of note. maxcap 21:53, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

To quote the Eurovision article "It is also the world's biggest song contest in terms of audience figures, which in recent years have been quoted as anything between 100 million and 600 million internationally."... it may not have been as widely spread in the United States (As it is a European event), but the rest of the world seem to have been watching.

I do agree with the above comment too... about perhaps implomenting an "industry recognition", some metal bands have made it to the Rock N' Roll Hall of Fame for example. - Deathrocker 23:40, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

uh

Metal is a genre, heavy metal is a sub genre

Actually, Heavy Metal is considered as a subgenre in spoken language; today. But originally (in 80's) it's the full name of whole metal genre. It's better to use original one. While refering the early metal, we could use Classical Metal instead (which we did in here). --EpiC-- 22:34, 16 July 2006 (UTC)

Uh, don't you mean "Classic", not "Classical"? Either way, I would say much of "classic" metal could be called something else. e.g.: Black Sabbath doom (or proto-doom) metal, Iron Maiden proto-power metal.

Don't make us go through this debate again. :D (You see, quite a while ago there was a big argument about this exact thing. It took a long time for a decision to be reached, put it that way.) :P

--FrasierC 21:59, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Quotation?

The last sentence in paragraph 4 under "Themes", is that supposed to be a quotation? If so, it's not structured very well. Shall that be changed?

Manowar?

Surely no definitive Heavy Metal article can ignore Manowar?

they're not that important in an overview of the genre. WesleyDodds 11:51, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

I agree they wern't innovative nor were they all that popular

They kind of influenced all of power metal, didn't they? They deserve a mention. And they're quite popular, just not in the United States. --AaronS 22:16, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Manowar encapsulated the essence of a certain concept of heavy metal that is fundamental to the genre. They may not be as influential as defining bands such as Black Sabbath, Iron Maiden or Metallica but Manowar certainly are a unique and hardly insignificant component of the Heavy Metal zeitgeist. --MichaelTurley 13:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

No they don't; they consider themselves "true metal". They're not as important as you make them out to be. WesleyDodds 07:48, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Manowars, admittedly self-proclaimed, crusade for "true metal" is merely an extrapolation of the natural antagonism which exponents of extreme art will often outwardly declare towards less challenging art forms. Manowar exemplified this artistic antagonism (expressed purely in terms that a teenager could understand) and indeed wore it as a badge of honour, or perhaps more relevantly, utilized it as a market differentiator. This, however, is only one of many interesting facets of a band which, even amongst heavy metal aficionados, inspires polar reactions in either direction. --MichaelTurley 13:58, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Claiming Manowar is not important to metal is simply absurd! I´m not a fan of them, but they were very important to the scene. They´ve done power metal before power metal came to be. Please, refrain from POV :-) (all right, it´s a talk page...you can POV it all!) But I agree they do not deserve a mention on the intro... But they deserve mention. Regards Loudenvier 13:46, 2 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I'm afraid Manowar was both influential and popular, a classic band whether you like them or not. Also, they introduced "Viking" and neo-pagan lyrical themes years before all the so-caleed "Viking metal" that is being churned out today: I remember this thematic elemnt being very influential at the time; nobody else was doing that in c.1982. Indeed, Manowar beat Bathory to this stuff, and at a time when Satan was a all the rage in underground metal!

This sounds like the case of someone simply not liking Manowar and holding it against them. Manowar was EXTREMLY ( and still is ) popular in Europe. However, to say they weren't influential is asinine. If you listen to their 4 albums from 82-84, you can hear that they were indeed the first epic power metal band. Songs like Battle Hymns, Dark Avenger, and Valhalla were way ahead of it's time. Also, Manowar have sold 8 million records. Now, that's not as much as Maiden or Metallica, but they're definitly popular.

Template

Heya I created a template page for the genre box. Could someone replace the one on the main page with it (my browser cuts the bottom of the page off).

Metal Unassessed

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Metal, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of heavy metal music on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.MetalWikipedia:WikiProject MetalTemplate:WikiProject MetalHeavy Metal ??? This article has not yet received a rating on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale.

Just click edit on this section and copy from here and paste to the main. Thanks! maxcap 18:53, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The so-called "mid 2000's Traditional Metal Revival"

I have removed this section, with the following reasoning:

- This is an extremely new phenomenon; it is yet to be seen whether or not it will have any impact on the genre, especially to a degree that would warrant its placement in the main article.

- Many of those so-called "revival" bands that were mentioned do not "take influence from the original 1970s and 1980s pioneers of the genre" nor do they play in that style. Rather, the music itself is much more in line with the sound of stoner rock (or, sometimes, stoner metal) sounds, already established as a sub-genre/movement in its own right in the 1990s with artists like Fu Manchu and Kyuss. The Sword, for example, insist that Black Sabbath is not an influence ; the official Myspace page for Wolfmother cites zero heavy metal bands among their list of influences and they openly claim that they were never influenced by any "'70s rock" band, nor have they ever intended to sound like one.

- The leading bands in this so-called "heavy metal revival" wave come from outside the genre, with a pedigree based in the indie-rock or modern hardcore scenes. Their audiences, accordingly, can mainly be found within the indie-rock (and even hipster) crowds. The phenomenon they represent is not part of heavy metal as a genre and a movement, but has more to do with the general trend towards irony-laden retro-isms in the contemporary music industry as a whole. To illustrate by comparison - if bands like Franz Ferdinand or Bloc Party are not mentioned in the post-punk article (and rightly so!), neither should their "metal" counterparts be mentioned in the heavy metal one.

- In heavy metal circles, both the credibility of these bands and their "heavy metal" identity are widely contested. This sudden "revival" (much celebrated in certain media outlets) is generally seen as fiction, concocted by industry PR men and out-of-touch music critics for the purpose of having something to package and sell as "new", ignoring the fact that actual traditional heavy metal has never really ceased to flourish within the metal scene in its 30+ years of existence; for examples of this attitude and for further reading, see , , (search for "boswell" especially), , .

Trends that have proved immensely more important and influential to heavy metal than this, like 1990's Scandinavian black metal or even the Gothenburg scene of melodic metal, are either mentioned in a sentence or two in the article, or not mentioned at all; in light of this - and of the reasons listed above - having this section is ludicrous. Unless there is a really convincing counter-argument, I posit that it should stay out of the article.

- 80.178.76.86 18:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I going to throw my view on this, even though I'm new. I'd say ther has been a movement of many new bands playing Trad. Metal these days, but the deleted examples certainly aren't the ones I'd have used. I don'think the movement is that notable, it's small even within Metal, but bands like Twisted Tower Dire, Ironsword, Battleroar, etc. And older bands like Overlorde and Attacker reformed and releasing new stuff in the past few years. It might be worth a line or two, even if it's not that big/important. But certainly no more if most views are against the idea. Dace59 18:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree with your point regarding the bands you mentioned. However, they represent a phenomenon entirely different from the one which was trumpeted in the "revival" section (with bands like Wolfmother, The Sword, 3 Inches of Blood, Early Man, Witch, The Illuminati, and so on). New bands like the ones you mentioned, and older bands like Pentagram and Manilla Road which have existed for decades and are still going strong, are proof that traditional metal has always been alive and well - they should be separated as clearly as possible from this new, hipsterized pseudo-"revival" wave. 80.178.76.86 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

3 Inches of Blood are fun sometimes, but hardly a major or moving band. As for the others, I've only heard Wolfmother and they certainly aren't a Metal band. The others are apprently Doom/Rock/Stoner hybrids. Guess other people need to make their views know on this. I'd be all for noting Trad. Metal staying strong and the influx of new or reforming bands into the genre, certainly. Dace59 19:05, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with you that it's kind of trendy and nostalgia/irony ridden; it's jumping the gun a bit to dedicate a section to the article. But isn't it a bit superficial to say that because a bands audience is associated with another genre their music is that genre? That sort of offhand rejection is just as shallow as the trend don't you think? maxcap 20:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Ugh, the less irony has to do with music the better, every use of it just sticks out as hipsters trying to look smart and be cool (But that's my rampent POV so moving on...). But on the point, wouldn't it be better to be using bands that are Metal, without a doubt? Rather than trusting to some media claims. Or using bands that bring up cries of "but they're not Metal!" I'm looking at the likes of Wolfmother on this one. EDIT:- I realise this would need wiki to list enough notable good examples to use and such. Dace59 20:15, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

maxcap: Yes, that would be rather inaccurate - that is why I noted that there is a certain disparity between those bands' scenes of origin (indie-rock, modern hardcore punk, etc) and the music that they actually play (stoner rock/metal). The point is, though, that most of those aforementioned bands cannot truly be classified as traditional heavy metal, on purely musical grounds. And even if they could, their position as "revivalists" is debunked by their own words, by the fact that both the style that the actually play and the style that they are supposedly "resurrecting" have been thriving for a while now, and by the fact that the very talk of this "revival" seems to originate from circles that are out of touch with the actual happenings within the genre. Add that to relative lack of impact/notability - and that's the gist of what I was saying. 80.178.76.86 22:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is Doom Metal (and other important sub-genres) missing from history section?

in the section dealing with the development of metal in the 1980's, why has death and thrash metal been mentioned whist doom metal been left out? Nemesis, Pentagram, St. Vitus and WItchfinder General were produceing doom *very* early in the 1980's! Furthermore, Doom may be argued to be one of *the* first directions metal took (Black Sabbath) when it was in its 1969 fledling state (see Black Sabbath's debut album with eponymous song - its not even written in pentatonic or hexatonic blues scales!) Doom metal remains a vibrant style today, and developed (esp. in the UK) through the 1990's (eg. Paradise Lost, Anathema, Count Raven, My Dying Bride, Type O Negative etc.)

Why we are on the topic of forgotten sub-styles, where is the technical metal/techno-thrash (eg. Voivod, Watchtower?) The discussion of Black Metal seems cursory at best, and is in fact completely absent from the discussion on developments during the 1990's, and from the section on cultural influence - most insufficient considering the church burning and murder crime wave that began in Norway in the early 90's: This became international news.

I myself tire rapidly of obsessive and idiotic over-taxonymising of music and art in general, but these are well-recognized and influential developments in Heavy Metal, and not just the preserve of DJ lexicon or a handful of obscure bands.

"Forgotten sub-styles"? When did Doom, or any real part of Metal roll over and die? Dace59 13:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

I meant forgotten from *this* Wikkipedia article for goodness sake - couldn't you ascertain that from both the current context (ie an article discussion area!) and from what I was overtly arguing for!?!?

Simple: scope. It's not the job of this article to go into detail into every subgenre of metal. That's what the template and links to other articles are for. Plus there are recommended size limits for articles (due to browser capabilities) and this article is about 10KB past it; adding stuff about doom metal would be unnecessary and hinder readability. WesleyDodds 22:00, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, there are limits, obviously, but Doom Metal is not - as you appear to imply - some obscure "subgenre". Other metal styles are mentioned at this point in the article (eg. both Thrash and Death) and it is true that Doom pre-dated both these styles and has been developing concurrently since the late 1960's, as the above comment correctly asserts. The point about the eponymous song "Black Sabbath" is an excellent one: Black Sabbath were one of the grandfathers of heavy metal music, and it was in this Doom style that they first expressed the new terrain that they were transversing. I agree that we don't need 500 words on doom right here, but it definately needs to be at least mentioned - if only so that you can mark-up the words "Doom Metal", add your link, and fulfil the "function" of this latter article...

Dusksailor 15:14, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Black Sabbath weren't a doom metal band. If anything they were just the inspirations for it. WesleyDodds 07:25, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, from *that* perspective, they weren't a Metal band either, but rather "just the inspirations for it" - to borrow a phrase from you. After all, Black Sabbath were referred to simply as "rock and roll" at the time, by themselves, their listeners and by the music press. If we can apply the label of "heavy metal" to Black Sabbath in retrospect, then surely we can also identify them as a "doom metal band" with the benefit of hindsight. At any rate, many listeners and musicians today - and during the 1980's - describe the band's music as doom.Dusksailor 12:28, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Mercyful Fate?

As it stands right now, Mercyful Fate is only mentioned as the originators of the corpse paint in the underground scene. Anyone into the underground scene in 81-84 knows that Mercyful Fate was one of the most important bands, along with Venom and Celtic Frost. The barrage of riffs, shifting song structures and strong rythem section is what spawned Thrash Metal in the first place. The Neo-classical guitar work raised the bar for guitarists everywhere! King Diamond's shifting 7 octave vocal range raised the bar for metal vocalists. Everyone knows they were Metallica's ( And Megadeth's ) biggest influence. Their heavy Satanic lyrics at the time were new, unmatched ( and legit ) and heavily inspired black and death metal. Also, I'll go out on a limb and say King Diamond's extreme way of screaming falsetto is what created the Black Metal guttural screech ( along with Chronos and Tom Warrior's vocal style ). Surely, Mercyful Fate deserve a atleast a small paragraph to themselves.

Yes, Merciful Fate are important in their own right, but Metallica's and Megadeth's "biggest" influence? "Everyone knows" you say? I think you are out on your own there! Ever heard of Diamond Head? Or Budgie or Motorhead or Iron Maiden for that matter? Lets not get carried away to prove a good point. I also think that yes, you are way out on a limb with the claim that King Diamond "created" the BM vocal style. He vocal style seems to receive amused dersion from the majority of metal listeners, especially those into the more "extreme" forms of metal, back then and today. More likely that KD was initially attempting to mimic the NWOBHM style of vocals that his musical compositions are clearly derivative of. Have a listen to Merciful Fate demos, and I think you'll hear an attempt at a much more convential NWOBHM vocal style there. Goodness, you might as well claim that Rob Halford or Robert Plant "created" the BM vocal style using this argument!

Dusksailor 15:11, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, I've followed Metallica since the beginning and I've heard them say countless times Mercyful Fate was their biggest influence ( I thought their Mercyful Fate Medley on Garage INC. and them playing it in their live sets was proof enough? ) , but Diamond Head and Motorhead were definitly up there too. I've actually heard them say Iron Maiden wasen't a big influence but that's not relevant right now. I know King was mimicking the NWOBHM style in some songs, however in Nuns have no fun, in the line "They never fail" he does a proto-black/death style growl, and that's the earliest of that kind of growl I could find. I believe that the trio of King, Warrior and Cronos is what spawned the black/death metal style.

I hadn't noticed that claim about KD's "7 octave vocal range"! Haha, that would "raise the bar" as you put it for the human race! Seven octaves? Surely you jest. Raise the bar for digital pitch shifting technology perhaps, but this is beyond the verified capacities of any known human male voice. And while we are on the point of "raising the bar", guitarists had many much more accomplished classical guitarists to inspire them long before (and since) King Diamond quit playing soccer and Merciful Fate started recording in the 1980's! Dusksailor 15:35, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard King has a 7 octave range many times, but I can't confirm it. Do you know the exact number? I can never find a confirmation, usually people cite it's 5-7. I know there are more inspiration guitarists that predate Mercyful Fate, however listening to their early demos and first two records, I can definitly see alot of inspirational in the guitar work as a whole - especially the riffs. Mercyful Fate has got to be the most important link between NWOBHM and thrash.

Genres

It seems evident to me that Neo-classical and folk metal should both be listed as fusion genres. Also, I think that the sub-genres should be limited to the great 8 of classic, doom, death, gothic, thrash, power, progressive and black, as of now. Groove metal, rapcore, etc. are dubious subgenres at best that have not been established to the extent that, say, melodic death, Viking metal, etc. have. In addition, speed metal is not a real genre. I've usually heard it used to mean thrash metal, and "speed" is simply not accurate, because much of thrash is NOT particularly fast. A lot of Metallica, especially. (Walri)

Speed Metal "kind of" does exist... It is quite visible that it would split into both THRASH and POWER metal. Just look at the early, early Blind Guardian stuff, or even Motorhead and Judas Priest. Granted those bands moved out of that. I don't agree with Gamma Ray being classed under Speed Metal though, they're definitely what I would call Power Metal. Vegetaman 19:30, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Alright, seems there was a misunderstanding of what I thought the term referred to. Still, I don't think it is a major sub-genre. I would consider Motorhead to be "Classic" metal.

Glad to see you agree with me on Doom metal. However, I have a few points of contention: Speed metal certainly is (or at least was) an important movement in the early-mid 1980's; for example those San Fransico "Bay Area" scene bands (like Metalllica, Exodus, Anthrax, Megadeth) were called Speed Metal at the time...they were essentially the evolutionary bridge between NWOBHM and Thrash - indeed some of those bands mutated over time into thrash bands. Both Speed and Thrash were almost a kind of "fusion" with Punk Hardcore at the time - it was a cross-pollination process. Speaking of which, you totally ignore NWOBHM in your "great 8" list; this is, I think, a serious omission. Death Metal evolved in like fashion from Thrash in turn, as did (what is now called) "Black" Metal. I cannot agree with the inclusion of "Gothic Metal". What is this really? Gothic rock is really evolved from Punk - or post-punk stricly, and as such has no place here. Other than that, bands like Paradise Lost, Anathema and My Dying Bride are (or were when some of these acts were still playing metal) A 1990's incarnation of Doom Metal - "3rd wave Doom" you might call them. Similarly with much of Type O Negative's metal sound - to the degree that they can be pidgeonholed at all. Power Metal, I suppose I can agree with, but "Progressive Metal" is always a problematic taxonomy: it ususally seems to be applied to any metalish band that cannot be neatly taxonomised by the music press! I have seen it applied in desperation to Type O Negative, Watchtower, Voivod, Janes Addiction, Queensryche, Fates Warning, Absrakt Algebra, Dio, Yngwie Malmsteen...etc. See the problem here? Original art always tends to be "progressing" somewhere new by definition! Finally, what do you mean by "Classic"? Malmsteen-kind of stuff, or just "older" bands by today's standards?

Keep out the "Viking metal" for sure. And subsume that Rapcore or whatever into NU-Metal if it must be discussed at all.

It is worth noting that in the early-mid 1980's, before this obsessive taxonomising took hold of the metal scene, there were really just three kinds of metal usually described by the average listener or musician, and this seemed to suffice (and I did say "usually"): Metal, Thrash and "Glam", Glam was not respected as a kind of metal at all; rather, it was an accusation. "Black Metal" meant an album by Venom; Posessed, Death, Venom, Celtic Frost, Slayer, Megadeth and Bathroy were all just thrash bands; "Hardcore-crossover" was a clumsy way that the music press had for describing a number of thrashy bands like DRI and Tankard; "Death Metal" meant thrash with especially gorey or violent lyrics; Candlemass did depressing songs, ("some a bit thrashy, some slow but still heavy, you know?"); and King Diamond was just a weird Danish man with Kiss makeup singing falsetto in an Iron Maiden-ish Metal band.

Oh, and Motorhead, then as now, just called themselves a "rock and roll" band; loudness and a gothic script alone are not sufficient to make a metal band, at least not in Lemmy's view.

Dusksailor 14:21, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Classic heavy metal (Late 1970s and early 1980s) section

The claims contained in the sentence..."the late-70s cross-fertilization of heavy metal with fast-paced, youthful punk rock (e.g. Sex Pistols), culminating in the New Wave of British Heavy Metal around the year 1980, led by bands like Judas Priest and Iron Maiden." is fallacious for three reasons. Firstly, NWOBHM is NOT regarded as being a product of Punk "cross-fertilization", as its origins predated the Punk movement's rise in the mid-late 1970's. (It is ususally understood that NWOBHM and punk influenced one another during the 1980's and this exchange of musical ideas gave birth to Thrash Metal). Secondly, the NWOBHM did not "culminate" "around the year 1980", but rather somewhat after that. (In fact, Iron maiden had only released a demo, a few singles and their first album by 1980.) Thirdly, Judas Priest, stricly speaking were NOT a NWOBHM band at all, and predate this movement by years: they released a 2-track demo in 1973, their first album ("Rocka Rolla") in 1974, and according to Mark Hale (1993) they formed way back 1969. Nothing New Wave about Judas Priest - they were well ahead of the breaker, recording back in the Lommi-Osbourne-Butler-Ward Black Sabbath period, years before the Punk craze had even begun. Dusksailor 14:25, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Judas Priest were lumped in with the movement (their most influential music was released around that period), and many other band besides Maiden had released albums by then. WesleyDodds 21:18, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

...and your point is...what, precisely? Dusksailor 12:18, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

A rebuttal to your points? WesleyDodds 15:21, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

User:Dusksailor is User:Leyasu's sockpuppet

Ha Ha ! Didn't you guys understand ? The way Dusksailor is going about things, it is pretty obvious that he is Leyasu's sockpuppet. Leyasu is banned, so he comes here in disguise and pretends to reason and dicuss hiding his original tendency to vandalise and his vanity. Please report and ban this user.

--Leyasu Sockpuppet Killer 16:10, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

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