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LoL

Excuse me, but I had a great laugh reading the discussion on the talk page. So much heated discussions on a historically "dead" topic? Nowadays, no researcher or professor of History wastes a single minute on this "Aryan Theory". As a result, politicians and theologians are now writing on this topic.

1)If Mughals, Kushans, Greeks, Huns, Scythian can come from outside, why not "Aryans"?

2)If they came, did they come once or in many waves/ chains?

3)Is every coming - invasion or migration or intrusion or sneaking? Who can confirm absolutely? This debate will have no end.(BTW, Invasion theory is almost dead now)

4)The impact of the "Aryans" (meaning just "Noble" in Sanskrit) on India, as viewed by most historians, is mainly on culture and language rather than on the formation of a race or nation.

5)No race on this earth is pure. Every race is now a mixed race. The sooner understood, the better.

Thank you. :-):-):-)Ghatus (talk) 06:29, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Point 4, "The impact of the "Aryans" on the formation of a race or nation" is the most interesting point. The Kuru Kingdom is most relevant in this respect, since that's the place and the time when the "Vedic fold" was formed, which has enveloped most of India, it's culture, and it's societal organisation. Although "the Aryans" form the starting-point in many narratives on India, the Kuru Kingdom is the real turning point, as far as I can see. These two sources were highly informative for me, on this topic:

• Witzel, Michael (1995), "Early Sanskritization: Origin and Development of the Kuru state" (PDF), EJVS vol. 1 no. 4 (1995)
• Samuel, Geoffrey (2010), The Origins of Yoga and Tantra. Indic Religions to the Thirteenth Century, Cambridge University Press

Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 06:52, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Culture and language rather than race or nation? Ghatus, my friend, you have some reading to do on nationalism. You might start by reading the History section of Hindutva that I wrote a few days ago. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 07:51, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I liked the picture. hahaha.Ghatus (talk) 11:15, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

It's funny, it just popped-up in my mind. But actually it's a very strong image for the strenght of India, and the value of diversity. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:26, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, the nationalists would do well to read Girilal Jain's Hindu Phenomenon. Abebooks has a few copies for throw-away prices. Kautilya3 (talk) 11:41, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, yes I read it. What's your point?Ghatus (talk) 11:22, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

The point is that Hindu nationalism is a form of ethnic nationalism. So, culture and language have everything to do with it. In fact, Hindu revivalism, which is a close relative of Hindu nationalism, only cares about culture, language and religion, and nothing about nationalism. So, yes, the Aryan debate is quite central to both the groups. If the Vedic people came from the outside, then their culture, language and religion are "foreign", not indigenous. This strikes at the heart of the ideology. But I think there is no reason for them to worry because nobody has claimed that the Vedas themselves were composed outside India. And, I also believe (a minority view) that the Vedic religion is not particularly central to Hinduism. Kautilya3 (talk) 11:37, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan, @Kautilya3 The story of India-
"My heart, awake in this holy land of India; it is a place of pilgrimage for nations to mingle in a confluence of humanity. Nobody knows who urged them yet they came from different lands and merged in a single body – the Aryans, the non-Aryans, the Dravidians, the Chinese, the Scythians, the Huns, the Pathans and the Mughals – all of them like so many separate streams flowing irresistibly to lose at the end of their journeys their individual identities in one vast sea. Now the West has opened up its gates, all are collecting its prized gifts and the same irreversible process of mutual exchange and assimilation is taking place once again in that holy confluence of humanity."- Bharat Tirtha, (a poem by Rabindranath Tagore, says it all about India's past).Ghatus (talk) 11:45, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Wauw! That's great. In more than one way. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:50, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Ghatus. Beautiful sentiment! Kautilya3 (talk) 12:09, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan, @Kautilya3 Believe me, after studying India's past as a student of History for years and going through all kinds of narratives-historiographies-ideologies-interpretations , I reached this conclusion. But, it does not mean that we should sugarcoat/hide any bitter incident or conflicts of the past. History must be told as it happened. Actually, there is no good history or bad history - only HISTORY.Ghatus (talk) 12:31, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

@Joshua Jonathan, @Kautilya3, Swami Vivekananda echoed the same thought,

"I am thoroughly convinced that no individual or nation can live by holding itself apart from the community of others, and wherever such an attempt has been made under false ideas of greatness, policy or holiness-the result has always been disastrous to the secluding one.... The fact of our isolation from all the other nations of the world is the cause of our degeneration and its only remedy is getting back into the current of the rest of the world. Motion is the sign of life."

He added,

"occultism, and mysticism... these creepy things; there may be great truths in them, but they have nearly destroyed us.... And here is the test of truth - anything that makes you weak physically, intellectually and spiritually, reject as poison, there is no life in it, it cannot be true. Truth is strengthening. Truth is purity, truth is all-knowledge.... These mysticisms, in spite of some grains of truth in them, are generally weakening.... Go back to your Upanishads, the shining, the strengthening, the bright philosophy, and part from all these mysterious things, all these weakening things. Take up this philosophy; the greatest truths are the simplest things in the world, simple as your own existence."

"I would rather see everyone of you rank atheists than superstitious fools, for the atheist is alive, and you can make something of him. But if superstition enters, the brain is gone, the brain is softening, degradation has seized upon the life.... Mystery mongering and superstition are always signs of weakness." (From Lectures from Colombo to Almora by Swami Vivekananda and Letters of Swami Vivekananda)

I know I am becoming philosophical, but these are universal truths. You can't change your history.Ghatus (talk) 12:46, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Genetics

Before we start inserting the genetics-arguments, we should first evaluate the value of those studies, and reach an overview of reseacrh worthfull of inclusion. Genetics have too often been used already to push a point of view.
For what I know about it: genetics show an influx of female DNA up to ca 50,000 years ago; there-after, there's no influx of matriarchal DNA, but there still is influx of male DNA. This is perfectly in line with the IAMt, and the basic facts of Indian history: a continuous influx of non-Indian armies - armies consist mainly of man, remember?
The IAMt proposes that male elites migrated to India, married local woman, who took over the Aryan languages, and whose children also were "Aryan" in this respect.
By the way: this info is better at place at Indo-Aryan migration debate. But first an overview at a talkpage of relevant research, including the research which makes clear that there's always been an inlux of male DNA. Best regards, Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:25, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Here's the section: Talk:Indo-Aryan_migration_theory#Reviewing_the_Genetics_literature. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:35, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Genetics of Aryans

Section contributed by User:DMR Sekhar . Copied here for discussion

"The word “Arya” is found in Sanskrit text, Rig Veda (1500-1200 BCE) which is cognate with Aryan in English. Sanskrit is a refined Indo – European language a proto of which might have entered India around 2000 BCE. Incidentally West Eurasians carrying R1a haplogroup genetically mixed up in a major way with Native Indians around 2000 BCE ,and it may be assumed that proto Indo European languages were brought into India by the migrating West Eurasians. The migration of West Eurasians might be in several waves both minor and major. As such Sanskrit contains Dravidian loan words.

There are genetic studies that tried to suggest that R1a haplogroup is of Indian origin but Klyosov, AA and Rozhanskii wrote, “Some studies alleged that the most ancient common ancestors of R1a haplotypes were Indian; however, the results were flawed by erroneous calculations of timespans using incorrect “population mutation rates” (see their descrip- tion and discussion in Klyosov, 2009a, 2009c, and references therein), which routinely converted the actual 3600 - 4000 ybp (“Indo-European” R1a1 in India) into 12,000 - 15,000 ybp. This was erroneously claimed as the proof of “origin of R1a in India.” Furthermore, high percentages of R1a in some regions in India or in some ethnic and/or religious groups (such as Brahmins) were incorrectly claimed as the proof of the origin of R1a in India (Kivisild et al., 2003; Sengupta et al., 2006; Sahoo et al., 2006; Sharma et al., 2009; Thanseem et al., 2006; For-narino et al., 2009). The application of the flawed approach resulted in confusion amongst researchers in the field of human population genetics over the last decade.” Klyosov, AA and Rozhanskii also show that the original R1a carriers migrated from Siberia. Underhill et al conclude, “Our phylogeographic data lead us to conclude that the initial episodes of R1a-M420 diversification occurred in the vicinity of Iran and Eastern Turkey, and we estimate that diversification downstream of M417/Page7 occurred 5800 years ago…..”

Thus Vedic Aryans are a genetic mix of Native Indians and West Eurasians for example Ved Vyasa the splitter (read editor) of the Vedas himself is born to Satyavati (a fisher woman,probably Bhil Meena. Meen means fish) and sage Parashar. Naturally Vedic Aryans inherited the culture/language of both Native Indians and West Eurasians. Hence it is futile to argue for “Indigenous Aryans”.

Bouckaert, R., Lemey, P., Dunn, M., Greenhill, S. J., Alekseyenko, A. V., Drummond, A. J., Gray, R. D., Suchard, M. A., & Atkinson, Q. D.*, Mapping the origins and expansion of the Indo-European language family. Science, 337:957–960. http://language.cs.auckland.ac.nz/ , 2012.

Michael J. Bamshad et al, Nature, 395,651-652, 1995.

R. Ramachandran, The genetics of caste, http://www.frontline.in/static/html/fl1812/18120840.htm

Reich, D. et al, Nature 461, 489-494, 2009.

Priya Moorjani et al, The American Journal of Human Genetics, 2013. See: http://genetics.med.harvard.edu/reich/Reich_Lab/Welcome_files/2013_AJHG_Priya_India_Date.pdf

Elie Dolgin, Indian Ancestry Revealed, http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090923/full/news.2009.935.html?s=news_rss

Klyosov, AA and Rozhanskii, IL, Advances in Anthropology, 2012. Vol.2, No.1, 1-13, Published Online February 2012 in SciRes , http://dx.doi.org/10.4236/aa.2012.21001

Underhill, PA et al, The phylogenetic and geographic structure of Y-chromosome haplogroup R1a, European Journal of Human Genetics1–8, 26 March2014.

-- Kautilya3 (talk) 06:56, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Discussion

@DMR Sekhar: This section is a bit incoherent. It also doesn't belong here because the discussion of genetics is being included in the Indo-Aryan migration debate page. Joshua Jonathan has studied the evidence. So, I will wait for him to comment. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 07:37, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The material I posted is purely scientific information that clearly shows that R1a carriers (West Eurasians whom we may call pre Vedic Aryans) are from Siberia who came to India via the vicinity of Turkey/Iran. The new research in population genetics on India precludes any possibility of Indigenous Aryans. May kindly refer to any unbiased scientist if need be. Editors of wikipedia should ensure correct and recent information to its readers which they deserve. Also the word Arya is not a meaningless term. The area ruled by Aryans was known as Aryavarta (the abode of Aryans, in North India above Vindhya mountains) in the same way Moghuls called their area of rule as Hindusthan.

DMR Sekhar (talk) 16:14, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

I do agree that this information does not really belong here, but at IAmt. The summary of Klyosov seems to be correct; the part after "thus" reads more like a personal conclusion, I think. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:29, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Regarding the following,

"Incidentally West Eurasians carrying R1a haplogroup genetically mixed up in a major way with Native Indians around 2000 BCE ,"

At least Reich et al., but certainly some other researches, seem to state the opposite: no mass-migrations, that is, no 'mixing-up in a major way'. I think those sources have to be rechecked. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 21:09, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Why the debate

I started thinking about writing a clear Introduction section for the page so that it is clear what is being talked about. Here are some stray thoughts:

The theorization during the colonial times went something like this:

The people that wrote the Rigveda and the succeeding vedas were a people called "Aryans". They were Sanskrit-speaking, came from somewhere North or somewhere West, brought with them the Vedic religion, conquered and enslaved the Dravidian-speaking natives, and established Sanskrit as the lingua franca in India. Hinduism is an outgrowth of the Vedic religion. So, the Dravidians are the only natives of India and the Aryans were the colonizers that came to dominate India.

This narrative was obviously found threatening, if not insulting, by the Indians. Hence the counter-reaction to prove that the "Aryans" were indigenous to India.

The reality is quite different. The linguistic evidence shows clearly that Sanskrit or some antecedent of Sanskrit arrived in India from somewhere West or North. Only small groups of people might have migrated. The migration might have happened over several centuries or millennia. The new arrivals in Mehrgarh in 7000-5000 BC might have been Indo-European speakers for all we know. The IE-speakers might have been part of the Indus Valley Civilization all through. These people might have maintained contact with their erstwhile home(s) and imported technologies like the horse and the chariot as they developed. After the IVC declined, they could have migrated West and East. The people that migrated East (to upper Saraswati valley) composed the Rigveda. The people that migrated West (for all we know) composed the Avesta, along with whoever might have been living there previously.

Am I right in thinking that the available evidence allows all these possibilities? If so, the whole debate seems pointless, arising from excessive and premature theorization. Both the "Indo-Aryan migration theory" and the "Indigenous Aryans theory" could be right and we don't know enough to decide either way. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:05, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The "debate" is a "fabricated" one. You are right there is sufficient ambiguity to decide either way at first sight. And the assumption of "insult" is misplaced. Let's assume conclusively that around 5000 BC some learned men migrated peacefully. After 6k-7k years later, today, how do we address them? My friend's father migrated from a neighboring country. My friend is not a migrant. Some say, this Aryan "invasion" was propagated to demean and discourage the ruled citizens. When the "invasion" theory flopped badly it was migrated to migration theory. And what do we know of it? It is as ambiguous as it could be. The counter theory is basically an attempt to raise fair discussion about why such a theory is implausible. If there is no "outbreak" of Aryan invasion/migration theory what would Indigenous Aryans (theory) be doing? And with an entire set of pointers directed towards the incompleteness in the invasion/migration theory, which we, for our convenience, group together and label as Indigenous Aryan theory, how credible does it remain? --AmritasyaPutra 09:04, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

It seems that you are talking about the past whereas I am talking about the present. (The past is only useful as an explanation for the present.) My whole point is to say that "Aryan" is a meaningless term, which I avoided in my second paragraph. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 09:27, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

The credibility of the Indigenous Aryans theory has been discussed before, with a clear outcome. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

I just read it again; a part of it seems unlikely to me:

"The migration might have happened over several centuries or millennia. The new arrivals in Mehrgarh in 7000-5000 BC might have been Indo-European speakers for all we know. The IE-speakers might have been part of the Indus Valley Civilization all through. These people might have maintained contact with their erstwhile home(s) and imported technologies like the horse and the chariot as they developed. After the IVC declined, they could have migrated West and East. The people that migrated East (to upper Saraswati valley) composed the Rigveda."

here's what seems more likely to me:

"The migrations might may have happened over several centuries, involving multiple groups. The new arrivals in Mehrgarh in 7000-5000 BC might have been Indo-European speakers for all we know. The IE-speakers might may have been part of co-existed with the Indus Valley Civilization all through for some time. These people Vedic people might have maintained contact with their erstwhile home(s) and imported technologies like the horse and the chariot as they developed. After the IVC declined, they incorporated local inhabitants, and some their customs and culture, who adapted a pastoralist lifestyle. The resulting culture they could have migrated West and spread over north-west India and further East. The people that migrated East (to upper Saraswati valley) An alliance of some of those Vedic groups composed the hymns of the Rigveda, which were codified, while The people that some people migrated West (for all we know) and composed the Avesta, along with whoever might have been while mixing with the people living there previously."

"Adapted," that's the term! It implies a mixing of peoples and cultures, but not necessarily forceful, and not even necessarily dominated by those "Aryans," but by local people, for whom it was profitable to take over this lifestyle. Who knows, maybe "the Aryans" were soon dominated by the locals, meanwhile seeing "their" own culture "triumphate." Notice also, ironically, that in this scenario both the IAmt and the indigenist scenario is "correct." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:54, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Re-reading my own draft article Indigenous Indo-Aryans and the Rigveda helped clarify some datelines for me. Kuzmina states that the Indo-Europeans broke up into separate branches only after they obtained wheeled transported, which may have happened in 4000 BC. So, it is unlikely to find any Indo-Europeans in the vicinity of the IVC prior to that. Secondly, she points out that the horse was domesticated in steppes around 4000 BC, but it is found in India only after 2000 BC (1700 BC, the earliest known horse remains). So, no Indo-Europeans came to India between 4000-2000 BC, because if they did, they would have brought their horses. There are no horses on the Harappan seals either.

Now, the Mature Harappan civilisation disappeared by 2000 BC, which means Saraswati must have started drying up before then. So, there is no way that the Vedic Saraswati could be the grand old Saraswati. So, why does the Rigveda praise Saraswati as if it is the grand old river? I think the only possibility is that the Late Harappans had a memory of the grand old Saraswati and they composed the Rig Vedic verses of Saraswati. So, the immigrating Indo-Aryans must have converted the Late Harappans to their religion pretty fast. That seems like the only way to solve the problem.

Funny, that is exactly what you said above! Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 23:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Hmm. The story of Mahabharata shows the Late Harappan element of the Vedic civilisation pretty clearly: the second map here. The main families were the Kurus in Haryana and the Yadavas in Gurajarat. The horse-drawn chariot allowed them to travel through the desert pretty easily. The Kauravas, the losers, had more connections with the West, Gandhara. The Pandavas, the winners, had more connections with Panchala to the east as well as Gujarat and Sindh. So, one interpretation of the Mahabharata war is that the "indigenous Aryans" beat the "immigrant Aryans." - Kautilya3 (talk) 09:02, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

That's a fascinating idea. Also because Kuru-Panchala was the origin of "orthodox" Vedism. But then, the Mahabarata of course reflects the ideology of this area. So, what was the religion of the Kauravas, or their specific interpretation of Vedism? Also, don't forget that the period of the Mahabarata-war is alter than the immigration of the "Aryans"; the Mahabarata may not reflect India at the time of the immigration. Nevertheless, it's a fascinating idea. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:31, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't be to sure that the Kauravas are the "immigrant Aryans." Rather, that they may yet another "immigrant group," a new "constellation" which appeared at the scene after the vedic culture moved east. Anyway, Kuru-Panchala no doubt incorporated "indigenous" elements. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 11:35, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

I was stating two separate ideas: (i) both Kauravas and Pandavas had connections to the other Late Harappan elements, (ii) but, comparatively, Pandavas had more connections to Late Harappan elements, as well as eastern Gangetic elements. The patriarchy of Kauravas and the exact opposite of Pandavas is quite stark in Mahabharata. (For instance, we rarely hear about Kaurava women except for their submissiveness. In contrast, the Pandava women are matriarchs.) Kauravas give the impression of being sticklers to Dharma, whereas Pandavas have more a sense of "ends justify the means." When they are in doubt, Krishna exhorts them to break Dharma to achieve victory for the "good of mankind." The story portrays Pandavas as representing the "Greater India" whereas Kauravas are portrayed as an extremist fringe group who happen to hold the power. Their only real allies are from Gandhara and Anga (Bihar), the latter being portrayed as defectors. (I suppose the Biharis were selling them iron weapons for money and the Greater India didn't approve of it.) - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:03, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Missing citations

The following citations are missing at the moment:

• Kazanas year unknown
• Kak 2008
• Witzel 2011

Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 09:51, 29 April 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll take care of it. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 14:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

Need citation, looks like editorial opinion

This sentence in first paragraph needs citation, looks like original research:

"The idea of "Indigenous Aryans" also implies a migration "Out of India" to Europe and east Asia. The mainstream view as accepted by historical linguists is that the Indo-Aryan languages originated outside of India."

Hmullur (talk) 08:46, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Do you mean the first sentence, or the second sentence? Regarding calling the second sentence "original research," please see Talk:Indigenous Aryans/Archive 3#RfC: the "Indigenous Aryans" theory is fringe-theory. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

By the way, how do you know the term "original research"? Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 10:38, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

Nice question! Hmullur the lead is a summary of the article. You need to read the full article for details. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:35, 29 March 2016 (UTC)

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