Misplaced Pages

Revision as of 12:55, 24 August 2006

Until I created this login I used Misplaced Pages under this IP.

Sorry I took a while to get back to you.

If you want to raise a policy discussion, Misplaced Pages:Village pump (policy) is probably the best place for it. The suggestions you have - single imaged with the video feed behind - aren't technically feasible with MediaWiki as it stands today, but may be possible in the long run. On the other hand, if it were possible, those videos would almost certainly be hosted on site.

Discussing the usefulness of Java video might be productive; I know we have very little video of any form. Shimgray | talk | 16:15, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

User page

Hi Mark! Have you considered writing something brief in your user page? This will turn all your links blue, and let people know something about you at the same time. Stephen B Streater 08:53, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I didn't realise your daughter was born this year - that makes her younger than Sophie! Stephen B Streater 22:26, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

Oops - only two months old and walking already, something is definitely wrong here. Ah yes I have the year wrong - Elena was born in 2005 - thankyou Stephen. I will have to try harder to catch you out next time. mk 22:49, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

FORscene

Hi Mark! You might be interested in my prototype FORscene article. Any comments welcome. Stephen B Streater 10:03, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

I am printing it off now. Will return with feedback as soon as. mk 22:07, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. An Admin has made it into a real article now. Stephen B Streater 08:43, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Cool - informative yet succinct! mk 19:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

As the last version got voted out at AfD, someone has re-proposed it here. As you contributed and know about the subject, you might want to look at the discussion. Stephen B Streater 13:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

External linking to videos

Please don't external link to videos. Upload them in Ogg/Theora format. We'll soon have an inline player for ease of use. An example of properly uploaded videos can be found hereIf you need help, just let me know. --Gmaxwell 01:25, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been thinking of adding a Ogg/Theora publish button to FORscene since this lot came round to Forbidden's stand at IBC last year. It's a free codec and runs under Linux, so if it's supported by the standard Linux tools, this should take a matter of minutes. The thing that's help me back is the lack of a Java player, but this is now going to be available "soon" (see above). To republish in this format, all you will need to do is to drag your file icon onto the Misplaced Pages icon (I'll need permission to use this as the Misplaced Pages intellectual property is copyright). I'm working with Gmaxwell on ways to automate this upload when Misplaced Pages video is published in FORscene. If you have any requests for user interface, please let me know - perhaps on my talk page or on FORscene's own chat system. Stephen B Streater 06:32, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark! We've added in an Ogg publish button to FORscene. If you'd like to beta test it, let me know. Stephen B Streater 14:57, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Hi Stephen, yes I would like to Beta test whatever will help me publish these videos in a WP friendly manner via FORscene. For the immediate I would like the deleted external video links restored. mk 01:24, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

I think you've been upgraded now. Uploading to WIkipedia is a lot more effort than using FORscene hosting, and you are not allowed to keep control of videos you upload - you can't necessarily "unpublish" videos - so check your videos for rights before you put them up. I'm planning to make a one-step upload button, but haven't had any feedback on this yet. Stephen B Streater 12:55, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

That's a shame - the videos you removed had attracted thousands of viewings. I have contributed almost 20 videos as links (I also have a handful in the pipeline). I think there are no more than 200 Ogg videos on WP. I think it is fair to say that Video on WP is woefully under represented given that I as an individual could boost the library by 10%. If I were a very reactive and negative person, I might ask how on earth WP ever expects to accumulate any more video material than it already has if serious amateur videographers like me are treated this way. I.e. dictated to in terms of which tools must be used. I want to use FORscene to edit my videos. I rather like using FORscene, it is easy and convenient to use. It all works in a browser. Any other method of working will take far far longer. For example:

• I will need to upload my DV footage from my camera and keep it on my hard disk (this is expensive and very time consuming)
• I will need an editing package installed on my computer (and I will need to learn this package and be confident it will give me the results I want - e.g. is it frame accurate - assuming I cannot get a free one I will have to pay for it too)
• I will need to redo all my edits (i.e. the finished versions you see will have to be redone by ploughing through raw footage)
• I will need to obtain / install software to convert to ogg format and learn how to use this
• I will need to upload the final edits back to WP

All this will take more time in fact than I probably have available to invest. I only do this as a hobby - I have a regular job and other responsibilities on top of that. Do you know how long it took me to compile these edited videos?! Do you do any video editing at all yourself?

• On WP linking policy

The linking policy does not even prohibit direct links to rich media. And it even explicitely says that indirect links are acceptable. It stipulates you make clear the technology being used for direct links - which I have done. There is also a test of 'appropriateness'. There are specifically no black and white statements relating to the placing of content on Misplaced Pages under all circumstances / no external links to rich media.

• What is 'appropriate'?

If there was a similar video to mine in Ogg format, it could be deemed appropriate to delete my video link from an article. E.g. some of the videos I provided are NASA videos which could quite easily be encoded in Ogg format. Quite appart from the fact that nobody appears to have the energy to do this - the rest are shot and edited by myself and are unique. Therefore it is appropriate to keep the unique externally linked video IMO.

• Direction of video on WP (as an aside)

Who is directing the path that WP takes regarding video? Whoever it is should take a serious step back. It looks to me like a very technology dominated forum. That is not in itself a problem. What is a problem is a forum that excludes a real user community. In the case of video it needs to encourage views from people like me (how modest a fellow I am) i.e. by this I mean people who are willing to put the effort in to collect and deliver video content to WP and by implication the viewer as well. All this wonderful technology means nothing if nobody is contributing/viewing content. And that is how it seems things are at the moment. There are already too many disincentives to add/view video on WP with Ogg - we do not need any more. I can see the theory of how an inline Java player for Ogg is a step in the right direction but what evidence is there that this will set WP alight with video? And how does this fit into the overall strategy for video on WP? In fact what is the overall vision - does WP even have one? If not then how about this for starters; that editors are able to edit, re-edit, 'donated' video material and publish this from a browser in the same fashion as text.

• Status of external links

If I can continue to use FORscene to edit / publish videos that's progress IMO. I would much prefer it if FORscene were better integrated with WP but that's a different matter. If it is possible by the method Stephen suggests that would be fantastic. But until this is working I think the current method of external links works fine. I am happy to remove the NASA videos too - when the inline WP Java video is working and there are NASA Ogg versions available to stream. But to just remove video links because an alternative might be along soon is not good enough justification IMO. It not only needs to be here now, it needs somebody to put in the time to prepare the NASA videos in Ogg format as well. When a WP-native alternative exists then fine - go ahead and delete the links. But it is unreasonable in the extreme to censor these video links just because there is no WP-native alternative at present.

Thanks, mk 01:21, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

First an off topic question, I'd gotten the impression that you currently or previously work(ed) for/with Stephen, but thats not stated anywhere, can you please clarify your relationship so that there is no lingering confusion? Please be clear and complete in your response.

Yes, you could say that video is underrepresented, but then again video is under represented in most sources of free content on the web. Since the vast majority of media on Misplaced Pages today was not created by Wikipedians, this should be expected.

"If I were a very reactive and negative person, I might ask how on earth WP ever expects to accumulate any more video material than it already has if serious amateur videographers like me are treated this way. I.e. dictated to in terms of which tools must be used."

It wasn't my intention to offend you, and I apologise if I did so. Like we require that our content be released under free licenses, we also require that our content be in free formats. Perpetual freedom for our content is simply one of the core goals of Wikimedia. We don't require you to use any particular tool to produce the content, and a lot of content is produced using unfree tools... Although it is preferable if you use free tools so that everyone can work from the same toolbox. What is required is that you use free formats. Stephen his indicated that his tools can now save Theora files, so you should be able to use them to prepare content.

As far as the growth of contributors goes, I sincerely hope the situation improves... But wikipedia is a long term project. There are things we could do to increase the number of videos in the short term which would be a huge mistake in the long term, for example, accept videos which are distributed under a non free-content license. Misplaced Pages will not be built in a day. :)

"I want to use FORscene to edit my videos. I rather like using FORscene, it is easy and convenient to use. It all works in a browser. Any other method of working will take far far longer. I will need to upload my DV footage from my camera"

I'm puzzled, how on earth does FORscene save you from transfering footage from your camera?

"The linking policy does not even prohibit direct links to rich media. And it even explicitely says that indirect links are acceptable. It stipulates you make clear the technology being used for direct links - which I have done. There is also a test of 'appropriateness'. There are specifically no black and white statements relating to the placing of content on Misplaced Pages under all circumstances / no external links to rich media."

The mention of rich media in the linking policy is not a blanket permission to link rich media. It is instead a further set of restrictions on rich media links which are otherwise permitted by our policy. In particular, external linking to these videos falls under the prohibitions on "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Misplaced Pages:Featured article." and "Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media.". The sort of rich media we generally support linking directly to is offical documents, and source material for citations. Furthermore, our overall external link policy is broader than the Misplaced Pages:External_links and is documented in bits and pieces about the Wiki. If you'd like I can provide additional backup (by means of comments from other users, or by links to other documents) to further support what I'm telling you... although I'd rather you save me the time and trust me that external links to media in lieu of direct inclusion is strongly discouraged and has previously resulted in users being blocked.

"E.g. some of the videos I provided are NASA videos which could quite easily be encoded in Ogg format. Quite appart from the fact that nobody appears to have the energy to do this - the rest are shot and edited by myself and are unique. Therriate to keep the unique externally linked video IMO."

We have many nasa videos, I'm surprised you haven't noticed them. More will be added over time, I understand there was some discussion about trying to work with NASA to obtain better quality material and automate the process. I'm not sure of where that is. I was unaware that the other videos were your authorship when I removed them, based on the information I had available (before noticing the gear list on your page) I would have guessed someone pulled them off youtube. :) I must, however, reject your argumen:. That we currently have no alternative video is not a reason to link to yours, this argument has been made in the past by several people who were trying to insert content without complying with our requirement for free licensing, and this is primary reason we have a clear requirement in our external linking policy to not link to material which belong in the article.

"Who is directing the path that WP takes regarding video? Whoever it is should take a serious step back. It looks to me like a very technology dominated forum. That is not in itself a problem. What is a problem is a forum that excludes a real user community. In the case of video it needs to encourage views from people like me (how modest a fellow I am) i.e. by this I mean people who are willing to put the effort in to collect and deliver video content to WP and by implication the viewer as well. All this wonderful technology means nothing if nobody is contributing/viewing content. And that is how it seems things are at the moment. There are already too many disincentives to add/view video on WP with Ogg - we do not need any more. I can see the theory of how an inline Java player for Ogg is a step in the right direction but what evidence is there that this will set WP alight with video? And how does this fit into the overall strategy for video on WP? In fact what is the overall vision - does WP even have one? If not then how about this for starters; that editors are able to edit, re-edit, 'donated' video material and publish this from a browser in the same fashion as text."

Ah, directing? you must be new here. No one directs much of anything around here. :) You've made a number of vague accusations with respect to problems but you haven't cited anything actionable. The best recent discussions with respect to video were at Wikimania, and I have no perminate record of them. If you could be more specific I could tell you what, if anything, we are planning to address any single point. Right now video playback is the biggest priority. The person working on the player also has a simple system for wiki based editing of clips which is only sutable for simple editing.

The general stratagy on Misplaced Pages in the last few years has not been to 'dumb down' the technoligy unless it really makes sense for both new and advanced users... What we prefer to do is leverage the user community. For example, with text editing this sometimes takes the form of allowing people to do an incomplete job on an article with the expectation that someone more skilled will come fix it up later. In the context of video it's a little less clear, so far what we have is that Raul654 and I both accept video in almost any format and will convert it and upload it. If you'd like to send me raw DV footage (or whatever is easy) and can tolerate sending it over your internet link, I'd gladly transcode it and get it up for you. I am more than willing to help, and I am truly sorry that we got off on the wrong foot.

"If I can continue to use FORscene to edit / publish videos that's progress IMO. I would much prefer it if FORscene were better integrated with WP but that's a different matter. If it is possible by the method Stephen suggests that would be fantastic."

My understanding is that since FORscene can now save to Ogg/Theora you can use it to edit and save to files that you can upload here. Direct FORscene integration is completely out of the question unless it is released as free software (then entire W

$ aspell check f $ cat f

First an off topic question, I'd gotten the impression that you currently or previously work(ed) for/with Stephen, but that's not stated anywhere, can you please clarify your relationship so that there is no lingering confusion? Please be clear and complete in your response.

Yes, you could say that video is underrepresented, but then again video is under represented in most sources of free content on the web. Since the vast majority of media on Misplaced Pages today was not created by Wikipedians, this should be expected.

"If I were a very reactive and negative person, I might ask how on earth WP ever expects to accumulate any more video material than it already has if serious amateur videographers like me are treated this way. I.e. dictated to in terms of which tools must be used."

It wasn't my intention to offend you, and I apologies if I did so. Like we require that our content be released under free licenses, we also require that our content be in free formats. Perpetual freedom for our content is simply one of the core goals of Wikimedia. We don't require you to use any particular tool to produce the content, and a lot of content is produced using unfree tools... Although it is preferable if you use free tools so that everyone can work from the same toolbox. What is required is that you use free formats. Stephen his indicated that his tools can now save Theora files, so you should be able to use them to prepare content.

As far as the growth of contributors goes, I sincerely hope the situation improves... But wikipedia is a long term project. There are things we could do to increase the number of videos in the short term which would be a huge mistake in the long term, for example, accept videos which are distributed under a non free-content license. Misplaced Pages will not be built in a day. :)

"I want to use FORscene to edit my videos. I rather like using FORscene, it is easy and convenient to use. It all works in a browser. Any other method of working will take far far longer. I will need to upload my DV footage from my camera"

I'm puzzled, how on earth does FORscene save you from transferring footage from your camera?

"The linking policy does not even prohibit direct links to rich media. And it even explicitly says that indirect links are acceptable. It stipulates you make clear the technology being used for direct links - which I have done. There is also a test of 'appropriateness'. There are specifically no black and white statements relating to the placing of content on Misplaced Pages under all circumstances / no external links to rich media."

The mention of rich media in the linking policy is not a blanket permission to link rich media. It is instead a further set of restrictions on rich media links which are otherwise permitted by our policy. In particular, external linking to these videos falls under the prohibitions on "Any site that does not provide a unique resource beyond what the article here would have once it becomes a Misplaced Pages:Featured article." and "Direct links to documents that require external applications (such as Flash or Java) to view the relevant content, unless the article is about such rich media.". The sort of rich media we generally support linking directly to is official documents, and source material for citations. Furthermore, our overall external link policy is broader than the Misplaced Pages:External_links and is documented in bits and pieces about the Wiki. If you'd like I can provide additional backup (by means of comments from other users, or by links to other documents) to further support what I'm telling you... although I'd rather you save me the time and trust me that external links to media in lieu of direct inclusion is strongly discouraged and has previously resulted in users being blocked.

"E.g. some of the videos I provided are NASA videos which could quite easily be encoded in Ogg format. Quite appart from the fact that nobody appears to have the energy to do this - the rest are shot and edited by myself and are unique. Therefore it is appropriate to keep the unique externally linked video IMO."

We have many NASA videos, I'm surprised you haven't noticed them. More will be added over time, I understand there was some discussion about trying to work with NASA to obtain better quality material and automate the process. I'm not sure of where that is. I was unaware that the other videos were your authorship when I removed them, based on the information I had available (before noticing the gear list on your page) I would have guessed someone pulled them off youtube. :) I must, however, reject your argument:. That we currently have no alternative video is not a reason to link to yours, this argument has been made in the past by several people who were trying to insert content without complying with our requirement for free licensing, and this is primary reason we have a clear requirement in our external linking policy to not link to material which belong in the article.

"Who is directing the path that WP takes regarding video? Whoever it is should take a serious step back. It looks to me like a very technology dominated forum. That is not in itself a problem. What is a problem is a forum that excludes a real user community. In the case of video it needs to encourage views from people like me (how modest a fellow I am) i.e. by this I mean people who are willing to put the effort in to collect and deliver video content to WP and by implication the viewer as well. All this wonderful technology means nothing if nobody is contributing/viewing content. And that is how it seems things are at the moment. There are already too many disincentives to add/view video on WP with Ogg - we do not need any more. I can see the theory of how an inline Java player for Ogg is a step in the right direction but what evidence is there that this will set WP alight with video? And how does this fit into the overall strategy for video on WP? In fact what is the overall vision - does WP even have one? If not then how about this for starters; that editors are able to edit, re-edit, 'donated' video material and publish this from a browser in the same fashion as text."

Ah, directing? you must be new here. No one directs much of anything around here. :) You've made a number of vague accusations with respect to problems but you haven't cited anything actionable. The best recent discussions with respect to video were at Wikimania, and I have no saved record of them. If you could be more specific I could tell you what, if anything, we are planning to address any single point. Right now video playback is the biggest priority. The person working on the player also has a simple system for wiki based editing of clips which is only suitable for simple editing.

The general strategy on Misplaced Pages in the last few years has not been to 'dumb down' the technology unless it really makes sense for both new and advanced users... What we prefer to do is leverage the user community. For example, with text editing this sometimes takes the form of allowing people to do an incomplete job on an article with the expectation that someone more skilled will come fix it up later. In the context of video it's a little less clear, so far what we have is that Raul654 and I both accept video in almost any format and will convert it and upload it. If you'd like to send me raw DV footage (or whatever is easy) and can tolerate sending it over your Internet link, I'd gladly transcode it and get it up for you. I am more than willing to help, and I am truly sorry that we got off on the wrong foot.

"If I can continue to use FORscene to edit / publish videos that's progress IMO. I would much prefer it if FORscene were better integrated with WP but that's a different matter. If it is possible by the method Stephen suggests that would be fantastic."

My understanding is that since FORscene can now save to Ogg/Theora you can use it to edit and save to files that you can upload here. Direct FORscene integration is completely out of the question unless it is released as free software (then entire Misplaced Pages infrastructure from the servers on up is free software). Even it was released as free software, it's unlikely that we would integrate it as we are strongly committed to making sure that users without java are not second class citizens (our java playback will seamlessly use native playing if available, and the proposed simple editing doesn't require java as I understand it). Without direct FORscene integration, there are still lots of possibilities to cooperate, for example, the FORscene software could be equipped with buttons to help upload Ogg files to the project.

In any case, I hope I've cleared up things for you and that we're closer to understanding each other. My apologies for being long winded, but you gave me a lot to reply to! --Gmaxwell 02:36, 24 August 2006 (UTC)