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Revision as of 14:46, 6 November 2004

1) posting both places because i want to make sure somebody besides you hears this. summary on the page, fine -- whatever -- have your happyfuntime (although i think that the controversy is not pertinent to the discussion, as CREATIONISTS do not ascribe to mr cheesedreams pet interpretation of the text -- but whatever -- as long as there's equal time, i'm cool). i would like to ask for a vote, however, on whether to change the title of the article to account(s). Thoughts? Ungtss 23:12, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I HEARBY APOLOGIZE FOR RESPONDING TO CHEESEDREAM'S INCIVILITY WITH INCIVILITY OF MY OWN. please forgive my error. Ungtss 23:12, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

PROPOSAL

i would like to change the name of this article to "Creation account(s) in Genesis," because there is a dispute as to whether there is one more more accounts in the text. I would also like to replace the text in this article with the text in Creation account(s) in Genesis, which describes both POVs with regard to the text in a more evenhanded, NPOV fashion. Any thoughts? Ungtss 23:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

alright. any opinions, cheesedreams? Ungtss 00:45, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC) the new article, incidentally, is a thorough edit of the old one, and not a new article. i copied, pasted, and edited.

You should either (a) edit the original article, or (b) copy paste and edit in your sandbox and append the page to your user page for discussion, linking from the talk page of the original article.

This is the article, not your page, and the neutrality of this article is all I am willing to discuss. If you dispute the neutrality of this article, then either change it, or complain in this talk page.

I am probably not the only person with any kind of interest in this proposed title change, and you should wait 48 hours at least to see if anyone who lives in another timezone, or is out tonight, or something, makes comment. CheeseDreams 00:54, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Let's see. :) The problem seems to be that the page title "Creation accounts in Genesis" implies the POV that there are two different accounts in Genesis. And some people say that there is only ONE account in Genesis. Is that right? ---Rednblu | Talk 01:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

that about sums it up, i think:). any thoughts about how to resolve the issue? Ungtss 04:03, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest that we open the discussion on the Creationism page where the master ToDo list is discussed and maintained. Creationism is the highest level page in this series. I'll open the question--if you did not already open it there. ;) ---Rednblu | Talk 05:57, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bible versions (Birds)

I have changed the biblical quote to the KJV version. It is an important point to note that different translations differ quite substantially. Some (particularly the modern ones) gloss over ambiguities and conflicts which are distinctly present in the Hebrew text.

The KJV is derived from an almost word-for-word (with small POV bias against organised religion - e.g. translating "elder" rather than "priest" (which was corrected at the KJV)) translation, which is itself derived from the celebrated Textus Receptus, the most reliable version of the bible around at the time, which Erasmus painstakingly compiled from all the available versions known, comparing and judging (with NPOV) which edits were the original (by being in the majority of the versions).

Consequently, the KJV does tend to follow the Hebrew fairly accurately, keeping the ambiguities, even when they would have been controversial, even down to the ambiguity over Daniel and Ashpenaz' homosexual-or-not relationship.

However, more modern translations, particularly the New Jerusalem Bible and the New American Bible, translate with heavy bias, e.g. "homosexuality is absolutely forbidden" rather than "a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" (the hebrew literally says "a man shall not with another man lay layings of a woman", where the is missing, and usually assumed to be "with the" though it can equally be the not-condemning-homosexuality-at-all "in the")

There are many many other places where they edit the text to their POV. In this case, editing is done to obscure the problem, wheras the KJV, in its fairly NPOV style preserves the potential discrepency. This is why I have replaced the quotation, as the others seek to POV the issue. CheeseDreams 01:09, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

i understand your concern about translations ... however, i think it's strongly pov to say that one translation is "right" and the others are wrong, just because the kjv is contradictory. from my understanding of the hebrew, 'owph (foul) could equally refer to mayim sharats (let the waters bring forth) as to 'amar (said). i.e. i think the kjv interpretation is no more valid than the others in the original language ... and ultimately the kjv makes no sense. may i suggest that if you want to do it in an npov way, you apply the hebrew grammar and do a full analysis ... or note that the vast majority of english versions, translated by competent hebrew scholars, interpret it differently than you do? Ungtss 05:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am not saying that one tranlation is right, I am saying that one translation is closer to the Hebrew original from the others. Any ambiguity in the Hebrew tended to be left in the translation, thus the KJV doesnt have as much bias.

The majority of versions are modern evangelical translations. Most other denominations see no point in changing their version, so there is little proliferation of the others.

I have looked at the Hebrew (via this website), though Im absolutely rubbish at translating it. It is generally recognised that translators have a POV and apply it to their translation (look at the New American Bible or New Jerusalem Bible for extreme examples of this (these can be viewed via the previously mentioned website)). Since most modern translations are by evangelical groups, this POV will be towards theirs.

The KJV was produced by a large collection of scholars, with various POV, from what is recognised as one of the most neutral and accurate attempts to obtain an original version in greek / hebrew (from the various differing manuscripts) (this attempt is known as the Textus Receptus). This large differing collection of people makes them more likely to produce a neutral version. The same is true for the few other versions which use a wide range of people of different opinions.

The translation, for example, of "They wept one another, until david had exceeded" retains the ambiguity of whether it is about gay sex (The hebrew technically translates "enlarged" rather than "exceeded", which would imply an erection) or just two friends crying (even though Jonathon has stripped naked before David) wheras the translation "They shook hands and cried together" is clearly a POV spin on this.

In the first part of Genesis, the ambiguity of whether there are two versions of the story or one, present in the Hebrew, is retained in the KJV; it isn't in the NIV. The KJV therefore is more NPOV on such things.

Since this is about ambiguity, then using the NIV version would clearly make people wonder why there was an issue at all. Using the KJV makes it more clear, whilst at the same time not taking sides on the issue.

The fact that the KJV is vague is the whole advantage to using it. It preserves the ambiguity of the original and avoids making a POV decision on how to translate it. The issue about "birds" is indeed that it could refer equally to the waters or to said. That is the whole reason for the ambiguity. The KJV maintains this ambiguity, which is why, in this case, it is a better translation. The one account theory takes it that it refers to said, wheras the two account theory takes it that it refers to waters.

Note that the words in are italicised in the KJV to show that they are inserted into the text by the translators in order for it to make sense. These words are absent from the original completely. The KJV is one of the only versions to admit where it inserts text that is not in the original. This is an important NPOV advantage.

CheeseDreams 12:06, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you insist on having both versions in the text then I would like a word for word translation from hebrew to be included as well (i.e. one which translates each word independantly and does not re-arrange the sentance or insert text). Since you seem to comprehend hebrew better than me, could you do this? CheeseDreams 12:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think we need the KJV or RSV quotes on this passage any more. As the versions don't differ on the second passage, can they be replaced with either a paraphrase, or just one of the versions (I would prefer the paraphrase, as otherwise people will keep changing the text to their preferred version, or adding their version). CheeseDreams 14:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)