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Wtshymanski reverting IP editors in breach of editing restrictions

In March 2015, Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · count · logs · page moves · block log) had an editing restriction imposed because he was routinely reverting any edit made by an IP address based editor regardless of whether it was vandalism or a good faith edit. The editing restriction was:

Wtshymanski (talk · contribs · logs) is banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address. This includes not only a direct reversion of an edit (using the "undo" button) but also indirectly reverting by copy-pasting text from a previous version of an article.

On the 23rd March 2016, Wtshymanski reverted an IP editor in violation of this ban with this edit.

On the 16th March, Wtshymanski reverted an IP address editor with this edit. This was an indirect revert (by copy pasting) of this good faith edit made by an IP address editor. The ban was enacted precisely to stop this last behaviour.

Note: that the ban was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski was disguising reverts of good faith edits by labelling them as vandalism. This is also a known tactic: to carry out an apparently harmless edit in amongst a raft of other edits to check if anyone is watching. If they are not, it is back to business as usual. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 12:25, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Here is a link to the long ANI discussion about this editing restriction. Liz 12:47, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) This was a perfectly good revert. However, a ban applies and it's indefinite. Nevertheless, I find swinging the ban hammer based on a single (good) revert a little too much. The remedy was proposed to break a pattern, and this edit can hardly be said to fit that particular mold. Don't try to kill a gnat with a howitzer... Kleuske (talk) 12:57, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

P.S. As for the known tactic, unless you have evidence (and show it) that this is a recurring pattern with this user WP:AGF applies. Kleuske (talk) 13:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'm concerned about this because although I'd fully support these particular edits (one is vandalism, one an error) there is a problem here that Wtshymanski acquired a richly deserved editing restriction to limit. He is in breach of it.

I favour no action here, as I can't see that any action would be any more than punitive. However he should be reminded that the restriction is in place. Any further reversions like this are likely to attract sanctions.

I'm mostly unimpressed by the IP editor here trawling to find excuses to bring Wtshymanski to ANI weeks after an uninvolved event. In what way is that a constructive action? Is there need for a WP:BOOMERANG here? Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I think Andy nailed it. The vandalism revert was brainless. yes W should not have done it, but pointless to punish now. But spank that petty IP. Jytdog (talk) 13:30, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

I concur that the best response would be to caution Wtshymanski with no other administrative action. --Guy Macon (talk) 14:02, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

• Suggestion If Wtshymanski didn't breach the ban for over a year (block log is clean since 2013, so I can only assume this is the case), and their first technical slipup was not of the same disruptive kind that led to the ban in the first place, perhaps someone should suggest appealing the ban, or maybe putting them on probation where they can revert clear vandalism, mistakes, etc. for, say, six months, before the restriction is lifted entirely? Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 14:56, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Support indefinite and infinite are not the same. Kleuske (talk) 15:11, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

An examination of Wtshymanski's editing history answers your point. Since the ban in March 2015, Wtshymanski has only made a handful of edits (19 to be precise) up to March of this year. He has since then sprung back to life with nearly 200 edits.

Someone above dismissed the second example that I posted as an 'error'. In what way? The IP editor made a good faith edit that was technically correct. It might be argued by some that we don't call batteries as cells in every day parlance but that is not the point. Wtshymanski reverted the edit against his ban. Part of the original complaint was that Wtshymanski was not checking the history prior to his actions.

An editing ban is an editing ban. Either we have them or we don't. At the very least, Wtshymanski should be warned that he has erred. 212.183.128.152 (talk) 15:17, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

That is interesting, and does make me lean more toward a six-month probation period before all sanctions are lifted than simply immediately lifting the sanctions, but then again you might be just as much at fault, because apparently an IP editor has been trying to goad Wtshymanski into violating their restriction. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Not me. I have had no interaction with Wtshymanski for well over a year (apart from placing the required ANI notice on his talk page). Also forgive me but I have had to make this post from an alternative platform because the ANI page refuses to update on my regular PC. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:42, 9 April 2016 (UTC) (AKA 212.183.128.252)

The IP who was reverted for their error went to 3RR to push an unsourced and incorrect change, in quite a proscriptive form, "properly speaking, a battery consists of two or more cells". This is simply wrong (1 cell is still a battery), especially when stated so firmly. So whoever reverts it, that's not a statement that belongs in that article. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:34, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Before considering a reduction in restrictions, please look at the pattern of behavior here:

• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive879#Editor routinely reverting contributions from IP address editors.
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive866#Wtshymanski hammering his personal knowledge into articles again
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive841#User Wtshymanski refusing to follow the merge procedure when merging articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive733#Unilateral redirects without merging as stated in edit summaries - User:Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive683#Request for admin attention re: proposed deletion of multiple electronics components articles
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive690#Wtshymanski failing to work collaboratively
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive138#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Floydian .28Result: Stale.29
• Misplaced Pages:Fringe theories/Noticeboard/Archive 36#Power factor
• Misplaced Pages:Requests for comment/Wtshymanski
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive257#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:85.255.233.193 (Result: Protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive172#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:Guy Macon (Result: declined, semi-protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive149#User:Wtshymanski reported by User:24.177.120.74 (Result: page protected)
• Misplaced Pages:Wikiquette assistance/archive103#Wtshymanski and the transistor AfDs
• Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure/Archive 7#Talk:PSR_B1919.2B21.23Merge

Some of the above incidents that should have ended up as blocks ended up instead as page protection because Wtshymanski's latest opponent (typically a new user) behaved worse, so Wtshymanski's block log does not tell the whole story.

Whenever a line is drawn that Wtshymanski is not supposed to cross, he stands on the line with his toes hanging over it and makes random short dashes over the line and back. This generates endless debates as to whether sanctions are appropriate for the minor infraction.

Also note that whenever Wtshymanski faces the possibility of sanctions, he typically does not defend himself or comment at ANI (statistically, this is a great strategy for avoiding sanctions) but instead stops editing for a while. The old "he hasn't edited since X, so nothing to do here" trick works every time -- his RFC/U was closed with "Considering that Wtshymanski has not edited since 16 May 2012, no immediate administrative action appears required". If he stops editing, please don't fall for this trick again.

Whenever administrators decline to take any action, Wtshymanski regards it as an endorsement of his behavior. He has repeatedly responded to warnings on his talk page with a comment that he has been taken to ANI, no action was taken, and therefore his behavior is acceptable. "... and yet, every time someone lists me at WqA or ANI, it peters out due to lack of interest."

The good news is that Wtshymanski responds well to even short blocks. A 6 or 12-hour block will cause the specific behavior that led to the block to stop for many months and even years. The other good news is that the vast majority of the time he does really good work, and we have a shortage of skilled engineers who can detect problems in highly technical engineering articles. The bad news is that every so often Wtshymanski pushes the engineering equivalent of fringe theories and pseudoscience, and in such cases he refuses to accept any feedback from the other skilled engineers who are working on the page. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:39, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Most of those come from before -- some long before -- the restriction was put in place. Wtshymanski technically violated his ban twice, in a benign manner that others agree with on the substance, but thee also got in fights with IP editors and new editors as four years before the ban was put in place and managed to avoid restrictions because they were right on the substance then as well. Per what the IP said above, technically it would be impossible for a dozen instances of violating the ban to have already gone unnoticed, because they've only been actively editing for a few weeks. Retroactively blocking Wtshymanski for an edit they made back in 2011, because it my have been in violation of a restriction placed in 2015, even for only a few hours, is a terrible idea. I don't know if it was your intention -- I actually doubt it was -- but I know for a fact that there are contributors on ANI who actively try to enforce restrictions ex post facto, and I can't shake the feeling that some of them get their way, so even accidentally giving them their way here would be a disastrous misstep. And fourteen threads on multiple forums (only six on ANI) over more than half a decade is pretty average, and possibly below average for someone who's made on average around 13 edits a day for over a decade. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 16:18, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Where has anyone suggested that Wtshymanski be blocked for an edit made in 2011? Guy has provided some context but that is basically all. 85.255.232.7 (talk) 16:43, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

In fact, I specifically recommended that Wtshymanski not be blocked. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:26, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, but at least one IP editor is requesting thus, and taking a rather cloak-and-dagger approach to it; posting links to discussions from five years ago may not muddy the waters any further, but it hardly helps the situation. Hijiri 88 (聖やや) 01:32, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

I strongly disagree. My "posting links to discussions from five years ago" helps the situation a lot. This is a case of long-term behavior, and the fact that he was doing the same thing five or even ten years ago is extremely relevant. I presented the following context:

• Wtshymanski does a lot of good work and should be retained if at all possible.
• Wtshymanski is usually (but not always) right when it comes to questions involving engineering and technology.
• Wtshymanski often ends up battling IPs and newly-registered users who are pushing engineering pseudoscience, often for commercial reasons.
• Wtshymanski exhibits long-term problematic behavior and will not collaborate with other established Misplaced Pages editors who have technical skills.
• Wtshymanski (unlike most editors who end up at ANI) is extremely responsive to sanctions, and a very short block usually puts an end to the particular behavior being addressed.

This is context that will help any administrator who decides to deal with this situation. --Guy Macon (talk) 02:03, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

• As a sometime critic of WTS, I looked at the two WTS diffs in the original report. The first one was a straightforward vandalism revert that nobody should get worked up about. The second was more problematic but should have been discussed with WTS before bringing it here. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a recent recurring issue, the report and its followup came across as axe-grinding, as per Andy Dingley. I think an admin should leave WTS a talk message linking the second diff and asking him to be more careful, but more immediate action against WTS is not needed. The batteries/cells thing should be discussed on the article talk page. The reporting IP's style also reminds me of a certain someone but I'll leave any decisions about that to others. 50.0.121.79 (talk) 21:59, 9 April 2016 (UTC)
• Remove the restriction Because frankly, it's ambiguous and can be wikilawyered to death and has no teeth at all - as evidenced here. What's the use of a ban on reverting IP edits if we're not going to enforce it? Take of off, let WTS go willy nilly all over the project, and let's just look the other direction because, once again, productive editors are above community critique. Save us the ANI discussions for a worthless ban and just take it off (I'm being sarcastic and serious at the same time, get rid of it).--v/r - TP 06:54, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Considering the fact that no administrator seems to be willing to even caution Wtshymanski when he violates this, and the easily-verifiable fact that Wtshymanski consistently interprets administrator inaction as permission, the restriction has already been effectively removed. We might as well make it official so nobody wastes any effort reporting future violations. --Guy Macon (talk) 13:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• So today we see the return of Wtshymanski, a first post to this thread asking to have the restriction lifted, then within the hour a reversion of an IP: clearly vandalism, reverted. Yes, this is "clearly vandalism". However this restriction does not have any exclusion clause for "clearly vandalism" - rightly so, because although no-one is going to object over such clear vandalism, the problem is that Wtshymanski's judgement over what is "vandalism" has been questioned in the past.

For today though, I see that someone under an editing restriction choosing to flout it so obviously during an ANI thread is hardly encouraging. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:05, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Observation of this forum shows that for threads of this type, it requires someone to propose what action is required to be taken and for there to be community support for it. That being the case ...

Proposal 1

That Wtshymanski be formally warned of his breach of his editing restriction and that a block will be imposed for any further breach. In view of the nature of the reverts, I think a block now would be counterproductive, and with the lack of activity for a couple of weeks the admins may well consider it time served.

• Support: As proposer. I would observe that if editing restrictions are not going to be enforced then, taking Guy's point above to its logical conclusion, WP:RESTRICT might as well be deleted in toto. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 11:47, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• I have read (some) of the above.: The purpose of an editing restriction is to protect the ostensible work of the encyclopedia, not to provide fodder for Jesuitical level discussions of fine distinctions. I would agree with the above proposals to remove the ban. --Wtshymanski (talk) 17:12, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course the turkey would vote to abolish Christmas! 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• support With an emphasis on "block for future infringement". See above. Andy Dingley (talk) 19:58, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose See below. Kleuske (talk) 14:42, 15 April 2016 (UTC)
• If, and only if, Proposal 3 fails, then I will support this because it's better than the alternative. Otherwise, I Oppose. --Gimubrc (talk) 15:10, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal 2

I might have supported option 1, but as there has now been a further infringement as in the next section, I have to propose: that Wtshymanski be blocked from editing for a period of at least one month. This is to reflect the blatant refusal to abide by this restriction. Certainly, no consideration should now be given to lifting the restriction.

Support as OP and proposer. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support, but I don't believe in mandating block lengths. That should be left to the discretion of the blocking administrator. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:29, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Support In view of latest revert, a warning now is pointless. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 16:55, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose. I just checked, and WP:3RRNO states that reversion of obvious vandalism (including page blanking) is not subject to sanction. If this is correct, then isn't it inappropriate to block him over it? If I've misinterpreted the policy somehow, I'm open to retracting my vote, but for now it seems like this doesn't qualify. --Gimubrc (talk) 15:48, 14 April 2016 (UTC) Retracted.

You have misinterpreted the policy (easy to do -- it isn't clear about how it interacts with bans). Let's start with an easy case. Assume that I get banned from editing Misplaced Pages. Am I allowed to revert obvious vandalism four times because of 3RRNO? No, I am not. I am not allowed to revert even once or make any other edit. So let's assume that I get topic banned from all banana-related pages. Am I allowed to revert four times on Banana because of 3RRNO? No, I am not. I am not allowed to revert even once or make any other edit to that page. The 3RRNO exception is only for those who are otherwise allowed to edit. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:12, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Noted; thank you for clarifying. I retract my vote. --Gimubrc (talk) 12:58, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - the proper policy regarding this is WP:BANEX, which allows reversions in cases in which no reasonable person could disagree - which I believe stuff like page blanking would be. ansh666 04:00, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The policy starts with the phrase, 'Unless stated otherwise...'. In this case: it is stated otherwise because the editing ban specifically states, 'Wtshymanski is banned from reverting any edit made by an editor using an IP address' (my emphasis). As I read the above, this was rendered necessary because the original problem (reverting good faith edits from IP adresses in pursuance of a campaign against such editors) was being disguised as legitimate reversions. It therefore makes sense to ban those legitimate reversions so that not only are judgement calls are avoided, but it also avoids Wtshymanski gradually eroding the boundaries. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 10:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The policy is specifically worded that way so that restrictions with the "any edit" wording may still revert obvious vandalism. The "unless stated otherwise" would be "...is banned from reverting any edit, including obvious vandalism...". ansh666 18:40, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Looking back at the original ANI discussion, it seems clear that the intent "was any edit including vandalism" (the original proposal was "any edit broadly construed"). I was aware of a follow up point made to the enacting administrator's page, where he confirmed that "any edit" included vandalism from IP editors. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 10:24, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah found it! The thread is here. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 10:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Strong Oppose. Banning someone for edits no sane person would disagree with seems pointless and counterproductive. This ANI-case reflects the shortcomings of the ruling, not some misbehavior on the side of the subject of discussion. The proper policy is WP:IAR. Kleuske (talk) 14:38, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Reinstating my earlier Oppose for the same reason. Granted 3RRNO doesn't cover this situation, but it seems needlessly draconian to ban him over this. --Gimubrc (talk) 15:08, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose I see no reason for this. Andy Dingley (talk) 00:31, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Continued refusal to abide by restriction

Wtshymanski, in spite of clearly being aware of this discussion about his editing restriction has blatantly and in defiance of the restriction reverted yet another edit made by an IP editor. I acknowledge that the revert was of pure vandalism, but I perhaps need to remind the contributors here, that the restriction was made for any edit made by an IP editor because Wtshymanski, in his campaign to drive IP editors away, was deliberately disguising reversions of good faith edits as vandalism. 85.255.232.199 (talk) 11:49, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Per WP:IAR, good one, too.Kleuske (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal 3

The ruling is amended with the words "except blatant vandalism" just after "any edit". Kleuske (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Support. A quick look at the diff should be sufficient to determine if he's violating any policies, and I'm really loath to block someone uncomfortable with the idea of someone being blocked for reverting unambiguous vandalism, whatever the context. --Gimubrc (talk) 15:07, 15 April 2016 (UTC) (edited for clarity; see below)

@Gimubrc: Your response to this proposal gives the very clear impression that you are an administrator when you claim that, 'I'm really loath to block someone for reverting unambiguous vandalism'.(my emphasis) However a quick check reveals that not only are you not an administrator, but you have only had an account since the end of January this year. At the very least, you are not acting in good faith. At the worst, I have seen editors blocked in the past who have falsely claimed administrator privileges. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 16:06, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I apologize for any misunderstanding; I did not mean to claim or imply I was an admin. I have edited the offending comment to make things more clear, and struck out the original wording. However, please don't be so quick to assume bad-faith deception, rather than a simple miscommunication. I simply weighed in on a matter I had an opinion on. My vote also stands. --Gimubrc (talk) 17:54, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

OK. Thanks for the clarification. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 10:15, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Also support; I see an IP (surprise) grasping at straws to get a productive editor who hasn't done anything wrong punished, and removing the possible loophole which is presented would be most ideal. ansh666 18:42, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose Leave the restriction as it is and now start enforcing it too.

The problem is that Wtshymanski's judgement is not trustworthy as to what is "obvious vandalism". I have no problem with him reverting obvious vandalism; I do have a concern with him reverting non-vandalism and camouflaging this under "vandalism". Andy Dingley (talk) 00:30, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

As soon as an actual example of that behavior is presented, I'm willing to entertain the assumption that this claim has any merit. I've asked for such examples, but none have been forthcoming. Until that time, WP:AGF applies. Kleuske (talk) 10:43, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

How about twelve examples of reverting good faith edits? That is how many examples were given in the original ANI which someone obligingly linked above, so they already have been presented. You obviously didn't take the trouble to read it. I shall provide the link again. The ANI is here. It was reported in the ANI that it only included examples from a restricted time frame in order not to make the ANI complaint too long. There were five initially though it continued to document a further seven reverts of good faith edits after the original complaint was made, several of which were disguised as reverting vandalism when they were not (and a good few reintroduced vandalism that the reverted IP editor had removed). It was also stated that there were copious examples from before the time frame (which I can confirm that there were - actually going back several years). 86.149.141.166 (talk) 14:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes. That was a year ago. The edits referenced above, however, are fully uncontroversial. Apparantly, his judgement has improved somewhat. Unless you can show me a recent transgression, WP:AGF and WP:IAR apply, as far as i'm concerned. Kleuske (talk) 17:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Too easy to game. If, as Andy Dingley claims (and the edit history seems to back him up) Wtshymanski makes a bunch of edits reverting obvious vandalism from IPs and then when nobody is paying attention slips in reverts of good edits, you would see fully uncontroversial edits at this stage. The only "judgement" involved here is Wtshymanski judging how best to do what he wants without interference from the admins. --Guy Macon (talk) 08:54, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

No, the examples given are not fully uncontroversial. In the second example given in the original post above, the IP made what must be considered a good faith edit given that it was technically correct in every detail. The term battery (in the article's context) is the collective noun for cells. Thus a single cell is technically a cell and not a battery. Thus the IP's edit was resolutely not vandalism. I would agree that WP:COMMONNAME would suggest that as most people refer to single cells as batteries and not cells, that Misplaced Pages is justified in doing the same - but that is entirely beside the point. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 12:14, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree with 86.149.141.166. Clearly the decision about whether to call a single cell a battery is a content dispute (and a pretty ordinary one of the kind that happens in the engineering articles all of the time). It should have been dealt with by talk page discussion, and if that didn't work, by dispute resolution -- and indeed the rest of us who work on engineering articles typically resolve disputes like this with little or no drama. This was anything but uncontroversial. It was Wtshymanski testing the limits to see if anyone would notice and enforce the restriction. --Guy Macon (talk) 15:58, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I was going to be charitable and suggest that Wtshymanski may not have been aware that the original edit was made by an IP editor. But, when I check the article history, I find that Wtshymanski copied back the precise wording from before the IP edit (and therefore an indirect revert for which he is banned). Wtshymanski cannot have avoided but seeing that the eidit was made by an IP editor. By performing the indirect revert, he has made it appear that he has just performed a routine edit, something the wording of his edit ban was clearly crafted to prevent. I agree with Guy that Wtshymanski was deliberately trying to game the system. 86.149.141.166 (talk) 16:53, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Strong oppose. Strongly opposed because, based on past performance, opening a loop hole like this will result in the inevitable flood of reversions of IP edits disguised as reverting vandalism, which is where this all began. 85.255.232.149 (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Call for administrator review and close

May we please have a ruling on this? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

As OP, I concur. It is clear that there is a good consensus that some action should be taken by the admins, though opinion is divided as to what. Option 3 is a non starter as it was proposed under the illusion that all Wtshymanski's reverts were uncontroversial. In fact the second of the two in my OP was completely controversial, as others have agreed.

I would suggest that this is not left unactioned, but at the very least, Wtshymanski should be formally warned of his breach and of the consequences of any future breach. 212.183.128.147 (talk) 15:51, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

With respect, I think it's a bit premature to refer to Option 3 as a "non-starter". Currently, the option stands at three editors in support (myself, Ansh666, and Kleuske) to three opposed (which are an IP that I assume is you, Andy Dingley, and Guy Macon). That's a 3:3 deadlock, not a consensus, and it's a little disingenuous for you to characterize an active debate as a "non-starter".

Likewise, Proposal 2 stands at 3:4 (3 support to 4 oppose), and Proposal 1 is also deadlocked at 2:2 (if we disregard, as we probably should, Wtsh. voting in support of himself). Granted, I'm not an admin and can't give a definitive judgment here, but it doesn't seem to me like we have a meaningful consensus on what action to take at the moment. --Gimubrc (talk) 16:50, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

If #3 is thus failing, doesn't that mean you'd now support #1? In which case, (the very mild) #1 is endorsed. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:55, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I wouldn't characterize a deadlock as a proposal "failing", to be honest. At any rate - I will only support #1 in the event that #3 is not chosen as the solution. I'm thinking of its as a preferential ballot or something: if whichever admin closes this rules out #3, then & only then would I be willing to support #1. This said: my support is for #3, and I oppose #1 unless #3 is declared not on the table by an admin or by unambiguous consensus. I should probably refrain from conditional endorsements in the future, I guess; too much confusion potential. --Gimubrc (talk) 17:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

My !vote was identified as Option 2 (as OP and proposer). No IP has voted for option 3 which is actually 2 support and 1 oppose. 85.255.232.149 (talk) 17:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

And option 3 is now 2 support and 2 oppose. 85.255.232.149 (talk) 17:26, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Noted; I was counting votes based on inferring support from comments rather than just counting the instances of bold text - I'll keep the correct counting method in mind next time. Also, if Kleuske proposed it, and given his comments throughout I don't necessarily think it's out of order to assume he supports his own motion, technicalities aside. I've tagged him so he can comment further and make his support "official" if needed. This said, my point above stands: a deadlocked point which is still being discussed is not a "non-starter", and shouldn't be ipso facto excluded from administrator evaluation. --Gimubrc (talk) 17:31, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Please don't count me as !voting unless I write Support or Oppose. In this case, my comment agreed that the examples given are not fully uncontroversial and the IP's edit was not vandalism. That isn't even close to supporting or opposing Proposal 3 (amending the ruling to include the words "except blatant vandalism".) --Guy Macon (talk) 23:03, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Second call for administrator review and close

May we please have a ruling on this? --Guy Macon (talk) 01:45, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Seconded; I'd like to see this closed as well. --Gimubrc (talk) 12:58, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Problem with admin who has erroneously accused me of disruptive editing on the page Clarawood

User:Davey2010 has posted to my user talk page accusing me of disruptive editing and stating that I will be blocked if I do it again . The issue stems from a reversion I did of an edit to the page by User:CDRL102 in which they said that a statement was an opinion. In reality the statement was referenced and was a matter of established fact. I explained my reversion substantially on the Clarawood talk page however this page was changed by Davey2010 and the sections deleted . Instead of taking my comment and explanation on board the immediate reaction from Davey2010 and CDRL102 was to accuse me of ownership and inexperience. Davey2010 has previously stated to me that there are Guidelines and Policies on Misplaced Pages. I have attempted to follow them and anything I have done has been referenced to such. Davey2010 however, admin or not, seems to have the attitude that he can do anything he wants. This is demonstrated by the original AfD he and CDRL102 raised for Clarawood which was closed after approx 1 hour and which was reinstated after a Deletion Review . In other words he has a pattern of what could be termed disruptive behaviour himself and deliberate ignorance of Guidelines and Policies. I am being accused of not being willing to work collaboratively and unreasonable "ownership" style behaviour concerning the page Clarawood. As I have previously argued in the AfD, talk pages and the Deletion Review this is not the case and there are very substantial references on the page and I have encouraged and asked for any problems others have with it to discuss them particularly on the talk page. The edit by CDRL102 demonstrates the importance of this as they were factually wrong. I have also been accused of reverting every edit anyone makes. This is also quite simply not true, but I have reverted non-constructive edits and explained why I did so. I have followed process in anything I have done here, I have not deleted other people's comments or blankly edited fully referenced material and I have not acted outside normal process and policy. Davey2010 however has done these things and I feel that it would be pointless and impossible to have a rational discussion with him on his talk page which is why I am raising this ANI instead. I have no problem with constructive edits to any page, that is what a collaborative encyclopaedia is about, however I think I am entirely correct when I say that edits must actually be constructive and based on fact and if they are not then it is fair to revert them. I think I am also entirely correct to say that Davey2010's behaviour has not been perfect and I hope this can be looked into Clarawood123 (talk) 13:29, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

If he tried to do anything to improve that article, then more power to him! _Fortuna 13:43, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• TL;DR - Yep I gave them a strong warning as they've heavily been trying to "promote" the article and clearly do have OWNership issues with it,

Yep I've wiped their article talkpage posts as it was more or less moans over reverts and some were unrelated to the article - I never ever do this however in this case filling the talkpage up with crap isn't ideal either -Most of it belonged on a user talkpage,

Yep I did move the article to a sandbox as CDRL was more than happy to work on it although it was reverted by Sandstein as there wasn't really any consensus at DRV for my actions,

So all in all I believe my actions overall have been okay and the only person that should be blocked is Clarawood123 for their huge amounts of disruption not only on the article but also on the DRV and the AFD. –Davey2010 14:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oh and I'm not an admin ..... thank the lord , –Davey2010 14:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

I tried to edit this page, most of my edits were reverted. It was then userfied to me to improve the quality, once it was put back into Clarawood, User:Clarawood123 deleted my revision and copied and pasted his last edited revision before it was userfied. Since then, I didn't try to restore some of my improvements as I'm not going to waste my time and have it reverted again, although I did try to edit the opening paragraph, which surprise surprise was reverted. So User:Clarawood123 seems to have an Ownership Issue. CDRL102 (talk) 15:03, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed ban/WP:BOOMERANG of Clarawood123

It's pretty obvious that User:Clarawood123 has an WP:Ownership problem (I'd also point out that they're a WP:SPA and most probably have a WP:COI). I suggest this be boomeranged back to them with either a straight ban or at least a topic ban with a forced name change.142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support topic ban or ban as proposer. 142.105.159.60 (talk) 16:18, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support either, as per the WP:OWN issue- also noting the sheer amount of different editors' time and effort that s/he has wasted, which could have been spent doing better things. _Fortuna 16:27, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - Many editors are trying to improve the article and they're simply reverting everyone and everything, Personally I don't think even a long block would change their ways so personally think they should be indeffed, Thanks, –Davey2010 18:01, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - ownership and competence issues are transparent. Not welcome here. --Ches (talk) (contribs) 18:20, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I think going right to site ban is over the top. Perhaps a 6 month topic ban, to give this editor an opportunity to demonstrate they can learn the site's editing guidelines and contribute effectively to other areas of the project. Either we gain a productive editor, or they blow it and then they get a site ban. - WOLFchild 20:52, 11 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment, on this wiki please log in for a support/oppose-statement, it simplifies the evaluation for counters (of course it's anyway no vote.) –Be..anyone (talk) 21:02, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

*Support a Topicban I notice the article is named Clarawood and that the user is named Clarawood123. With the ownership issue this is rather striking. While I can't say there's exactly a COI but their connection to Clarawood does seems likely to be apart of the reason for their disruption.With an indef topic ban they can build up other contributions outside of their single purpose and in 6 months they can appeal.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:22, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

oppose as @HyperGaruda: points out Clarawood123 does seem to be mindful of the ownership issue and can be expected to take that into account in the future. They are a new user and should be given the opportunity to correct course. In the event they do not they can be banned accordingly later. As opposed to banning her some more experienced editors can step in and assist in the article such as by fixing the article or tagging an issue with it.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 00:18, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Extremely strong oppose on the following grounds: a site ban is overkill; this proposal is brought forth by someone who either doesn't want to take responsibility for their Misplaced Pages edits and activity by registering an account or they are a sockpuppet. I'm very uncomfortable giving this proposal any credence based on the fact that the IP proposer could be anyone who has edited here previously under an account or another IP and is currently blocked or are IP hopping or just playing games. And just for the record: the account we being discussed here for some kind of sanction/ban is way too new for anyone to be calling for a site ban, topic ban, and saying they aren't welcome in Misplaced Pages. WP:BITE immediately comes to mind. Clarawood123 HAS less than 80 edits at this writing. Some folks just don't get Misplaced Pages at first and mistake it for something other than an encyclopedia project that has extensive rules, guidelines, policies, and the like. To some, it's just an online site where they can add some stuff rather than actually seeing the bigger, more serious picture. What should happen is someone very experienced and/or very patient needs to volunteer to mentor this individual, put them in the right direction, give them sound advice, and get them editing productively, not set them up to create another account and get into the sockpuppet death-spiral. Which is what will happen if they are site-banned or topic-banned. This is a bad proposal and it's a bad precedent to allow an anon-IP to suggest such a strong move and editors going along with this should seriously rethink their agreement with the proposal, in my opinion. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 01:38, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I share your concern with this IP. The major thing really is that the ownership issues cease.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 03:41, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for assuming good faith, guys. If you had checked my contribs, you'd have seen that I've been on this IP for a while. As for my proposal: here we have a blatant promotional account who is trying to force their own POV on an article, without and against consensus, and you're proposing we treat them like any other account 142.105.159.60 (talk) 15:39, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

You've been here with this current IP only since January 2016, from what I can see. My concerns are well spelled out and I don't think they are unreasonable. And yes, I do think we should treat them like "any other account" -- something they are and something you are not. If you want to be taken seriously in situations such as this, my suggestion is you also get an account. I'm sure there are admins and other editors who will disagree, however, I am just as certain there are admins and other editors who would agree. It's no big deal to have an account, after all. Why not create one? -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:04, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Because... it's none of your our business? _Fortuna 16:06, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Should this point be forced? No. Is it our business as a community when an IP is looking to have a newbie permanently banned from editing? I think it is. I've said what I had to say, and am fine dropping the issue of this IP not having an account from here on. But I won't keep silent over a permaban proposal when I don't think it's warranted. -- WV ● ✉ ✓ 16:09, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment I would like to thank the various participants for their advice and guidance. It seems that I am being portrayed as someone who simply just reverts everything for the sake of it because I am new and unwilling to learn. This is not the truth. It also seems that those who have supported this position have taken others' comments at face value and have not checked into the history of any edits or reversions I have done or the comments I made to support those. At present following the latest edits to the Clarawood page by various editors over the last day or so it is in a state where it is factually innaccurate from the very first line of the infobox, is misreferenced throughout and is in breach of copyright as legally required statements for the attribution of multiple references have been deleted. I am not going to edit it or revert it as I will only be accused - as I have been already - of ownership etc...all I can say is that if correcting mistakes, ensuring information is factual and ensuring that material is referenced is wrong then I am happy to be wrong. Hopefully someone with a bit of sense and gravitas will look into this Clarawood123 (talk) 09:24, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123, if you have identified material currently on the page that is a copyright violation, it's pretty important that you identify that content, because it needs to be removed.

Otherwise, some general comments:

• Although multiple people have been involved in edit skirmishes on the article, as well as the AfD, attempts to have any discussion at all on the article talk have been weak sauce at best, and not always been done with the best tone, on multiple sides. For example, CDRL102's remark "you're incabable, that's all", is sure to lead to productive discourse, and not at all escalate tensions.
• Davey2010's behavior also leaves much to be desired, such as not blanking discussion on the article talk with such helpful summaries as "Stop filling the talkpage with moans" (please see WP:NPA and WP:TPO), not to mention giving a final warning as a first warning on Clarawood123's user talk, and threatening indef, which is clearly not a thinly veiled "fuck you".
• I am very suspicious of a ban proposal by an IP, especially after four comments, three of which were made by the two above referenced editors.
• To their credit HyperGaruda has made a commendable effort and others should follow their example.

So overall, oppose ban, support not WP:BITEing, recommend certain editors take a few moments of serious self-examination. TimothyJosephWood 18:00, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I admit I could've discussed it better with them but overall my behaviour was absolutely fine, They deserved a warning months ago however I left off the warnings in the hope they'd get the hint .... which they didnt hence the final...., I stated above on why I removed their talkpage comments and my edit summaries wasn't a personal attack, Ofcourse because you're absolutely perfect and haven't ever made a mistake in your life have you ? .... –Davey2010 18:11, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly six minutes wasn't enough personal reflection time. Your actions have not been absolutely fine, and saying that they were is not a justification. TimothyJosephWood 18:25, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I called the User 'incapable' after they again reverted one of my edits, which has been fixed by another editor since. CDRL102 (talk) 19:30, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

I find in my travels through life, that insulting people is generally not an effective communication technique. TimothyJosephWood 20:07, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose ban. Well, that escalated quickly. Taking into account how new Clarawood123 is, you could be a little more considerate. From their comment above, it appears that the you do not own Misplaced Pages pages message has finally sunk in. Perhaps it is best if someone experienced in the Wiki-MoS checks and old version of Clarawood, such as this one, tagging problems as they go through the page (don't forget to save it to a sandbox), like I did in one section. That way, Clarawood123 can learn what exactly is wrong/unwikipedic, instead of being flooded by vague comments that the article has problems somewhere at an unspecified location. - HyperGaruda (talk) 17:53, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support site ban - I tried to talk with this user and they are 100% committed to the view everything they have done is fine and everyone else has done wrong, and cannot see their COI. They have resisted all efforts at dialogue to reach consensus (not just with me, but from day 1); this stance toward the community has been and is disruptive and won't stop being disruptive; they have no place here. Jytdog (talk) 18:20, 12 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - per JYT, and actions smack of WP:TEND. Clearly not here to contribute cooperatively. Toddst1 (talk) 19:27, 12 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support - editor has demonstrated an incapability to talk about their editing stances without some way incorporating their commentary/opinion of an editor to it. This is not a battleground. Based on the information that's relayed, Ciarawood123's condescending and ownership attitudes isn't helping anything to resolve anything. Proceeding to start massive discussions so to talk about another editor rather than just make the discussion about what it is about the article they have a problem with is not how to start an article talk page discussion or otherwise seek consensus. It also doesn't help that he edit wars and fights when others challenge him and only trying to get his way. I am not familiar with the subject area and do not make an opinion on anyone's edits at hand, but we don't always have to know which is the right version of an article to know whether an editors perception of collaboration is the correct one. Its about working with others to achieve the one goal to build an encyclopedia, not treating others as opponents when they disagree with you. Its detracting from our goals when we have people on this project that don't seem to know what collaboration and working with others truly means. —Mythdon 07:39, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

• Response In reply to the last few commenters - a simple search through and perusal of the entire correspondence relating to the page Clarawood, including those comments and talk page sections which have been deleted by other editors - in my view deliberately as part of their campaign to portray me as something I am not - will demonstrate fully that my focus has been on the content of the page and the quality of the information and referencing on it. When some editors have stated that they tried to improve the page but I just reverted as usual, this portays me as a disruptive and non-collaborative editor with ownership issues. But this is not the truth as I have been saying for some time now and which is the reason I raised this ANI. I will offer an analogy. If any of the editors above had created and written a page and then I came on and made edits which left it demonstrably factually wrong would they be justified in reverting those edits? I think they would. Further, if, despite having explained exactly why they reverted, they were then accused of ownership, bias and disruption would this be true? The answer is it would not. As I have previously urged people to do, please do not participate in this without fully looking at the facts and without being completely and utterly honest. The reality is that a number of those involved have not been honest, are guilty themselves of the things they are accusing me of - and worse - and when others with more rational minds have tried to highlight this to them they have blanked it and indeed acted arrogantly and rudely. I have attempted to keep my arguments and comments civil and rational and on key. I have had to defend myself against other editors which is why I have had to mention them. It was me who was the person focussing on content in the first place. As I stated above the article is now in breach of copyright, seriously misreferenced from the first line and factually wrong from the first line. This is because in their haste to make me out to be a fool and defend their friends the editors concerned have acted irrationally and rashly and frankly do not have knowledge of the subject they were dealing with. Pointing this out does not make me disruptive, it does not mean I am moaning, it does not mean I am unwilling to collaborate, it does not mean I cannot self reflect or that I have a conflict of interest - it means that an article which was factual and fully referenced has been vandalised in a way which is a disgrace to Misplaced Pages. By those who are accusing others ie me of the same actions. I am getting rather sick of this ongoing nonsense myself and sick of constantly having to defend myself from people jumping on the bandwagon without checking their facts Clarawood123 (talk) 20:38, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123, not a word you wrote there acknowledges that you have done anything wrong. As long as you maintain that stance, you are, in my view, going to be an endless source of disruption. Everyone is new, but most new editors do not cause this level of disruption, and most new editors are willing to listen and to learn. If you were self-aware and willing to learn, and not focused solely on blaming others, I would not be supporting a site ban. Jytdog (talk) 21:05, 14 April 2016 (UTC)

Dear User:Jytdog it does not acknowledge I did anything wrong because I did not. The only thing I appear to have done wrong here - aside from some minor mistakes at the very start - is have a username which some have assumed means I am an SPA. It doesn't, but I haven't had the chance yet to get into Misplaced Pages and my first article was written about something I am an expert on. Nobody knows what other potential articles I might write or what contributions I may make. As I tried to point out to you, but you were unwilling to reflect on your own actions and words, if an article is fully factual and referenced and someone claims it is not and makes a sweeping edit which then actually does leave it innaccurate and unreferenced, then an editor would not only be within their rights but expected to revert to the original. This does not make them disruptive, but it would highlight the other editor who has left the article in a bad state as disruptive. Me not agreeing with you does not mean I cannot look at myself, it means I do not agree with your analysis, and my disagreement is based on facts and evidence not blind assertion. Thankyou Clarawood123 (talk) 07:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

You have made so many mistakes. None of them fatal or unusual. The unusual, fatal mistake - the reason this thread is here - is your inability to be flexible, dialogue and learn. You are profoundly unfit for Misplaced Pages, where the bedrock policy is consensus. I am wrong sometimes, btw. Not here. Jytdog (talk) 09:47, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose ban for now. Other editors' attempts to deal with the content and ownership issues have been as significant a cause of this situation. This discussion has brought it to a wider audience; the response from Clarawood123 has is not ideal but is understandable. More time is needed. Peter James (talk) 22:21, 13 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support site ban - This user is clearly not here to build an encyclopedia. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 23:56, 13 April 2016 (UTC)

Clearly? Provide evidence Clarawood123 (talk) 07:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It has been, both here and at the AfD. Indeed, some might argue that you were contributory to presenting the evidence yourself. _Fortuna 09:54, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose ban but they just need to learn how to write, I understand what it's like to be a young editor - and so I can see the frustration of why others weren't happy with me - and take it from me, Clarawood just needs to wise up and bit and learn how it all works, move on to a project maybe and help out there. But with a ban they won't learn so it's not a good method. CDRL102 (talk) 22:33, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• To be fair they've been problematic since March and nearly a month later and nothing's changed in terms of their behaviour, How do you know they're young ? ... They could be 85 all for you know ...., Don't get me wrong I would absolutely love to give the editor a chance however with the amount of disruption caused here I honestly can't them ever changing their ways here .... There's only so much WP:ROPE you can give.... –Davey2010 00:08, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• This discussion is the first time Clarawood123 (or the article, or the AFD) has been mentioned on any noticeboard. Peter James (talk) 00:18, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• I know?........ –Davey2010 03:05, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose(with clarification) - I think the person needs some mentorship, as my first Article got AfD'ed and I didn't like the way it happened, but that is the lessons needed to learn how we are required to format our contributions. I agree that the person has displayed obvious recalcitrance, and am suspicious of the name's involved, but in the spirit of "good faith" think some mentoring would be good. Nuro msg me 02:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Comment User:CDRL102 advises that I just need to learn "how it all works". Presumeably this would include such issues as not deleting from articles established academic facts which are referenced. For example such as they did as described on the Clarawood Talk page here which was the edit and revert which kicked off all this nonsense. User:Davey2010 states that I have been "problematic since March" and talks of the "amount of disruption caused". Presumeably his own listing of the article for AfD and subsequent actions in closing it after an hour, deleting comments and discussions on Talk pages, threatening me with blocking etc etc and therefore me having to raise this ANI - it was in fact me who raised this about User:Davey2010 - were not in any way disruptive. User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi made sweeping edits to the Clarawood page. The edit in which they left the page in breach of copyright was labelled "irrelevancy", the edit in which they adopted CDRL102's change to the opening statement was labelled "unsourced WP:OR" despite the fact that it was in fact referenced and was NOT original research as explained previously, they removed a lot of detail under the label "unsourced" despite the fact that it was not only heavily sourced but the source was the official record of the construction by those who built the estate (but of course they had already removed those references as "irrelevant"), they then removed even more stating it was a synth and also that the sources were "crap". If the offical Government record held at the Public Record Office of Northern Ireland is a "crap" source then God help us in trying to find good ones. Others have made helpful edits by leaving the article completely and utterly misreferenced in other words there are references on the page - from the first line - which bear no relation to the statement or fact they supposedly back up, there is now some very bad grammar on the page including mispelling, and as I have also previously mentioned the article is factually wrong in multiple places from the outset. People need to get real here, see that my arguments on this have been driven by a desire for proper content and proper procedure; recognise that a number of those attacking me and my actions have been completely in the wrong despite their assertions to the contrary; get this article restored to the way it was before it was vandalised ie my last edit; if there are genuine problems with how it was written then raise those issues particularly in discussion on the talk page where I would be more than willing to learn or amend if appropriate; stop playing the issue as being my inexperience and understand that the actual issue is the inability of some of the above to reflect honestly on their own actions. Contrary to some people's assertions I can and have reflected on my own and as a result have not done anything else except try and defend myself - even though as I have said the page is now in breach of copyright thanks to ] and others. Yours, anticipating that the above mentioned and others will reject this comment and redouble their attacks on me Clarawood123 (talk) 09:06, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Do you anticipate that editors will start linking to WP:IDHT and WP:NOTHERE too? _Fortuna 10:11, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Clarawood123 is taking all the WP:ROPE that other editors are offering and hanging themselves. I urge the editors voting !oppose to read the intransigence in what Clarawood123 is actually writing here, and reconsider. Jytdog (talk) 23:23, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Intransigence is defined as not willing to compromise; obstinately maintaining an attitude however it is invariably used in the context of someone who does so without reason or rational thought, reflection on their position or reference to accepted norms or processes. This is not what I have done. If it was I would admit so and move on. Instead my staunch position has been held with direct reference to multiple Guidelines and in the face of blank assertion without evidence. There is most definitely intransigence throughout this saga, and rational, sensible and honest minds - after investigation and reference to the full history of it on the various talk pages, AfD, Deletion Review, edit histories and this ANI (which I started about Davey2010) - will be able to distinguish what quarters it has been coming from eg I have been accused of reverting everything anyone else did to the page lots of times, the edit history shows that after a couple of mistakes by me initially over fair use images and trivia, there were only 2 or 3 reversions of edits by CDRL102 over a period of about 2 weeks and they were both explained fully on the talk page. The only other reversions were then the one after the Deletion Review restored the page and the one reverting CDRL102's removal of a referenced fact. User:Jytdog is currently going through the article as it has been left by others ie misreferenced and in breach of copyright etc highlighting references which appear to bear no relation to things mentioned and deleting sections of what little remains. I must point out that if those edits which left the article in this state had not been done then it would not be misreferenced Clarawood123 (talk) 11:37, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose site ban. A site ban would be ridicusly harsh on a new editor with so few edits. If anything, a topic ban would be more than enough to check Clarawood123's intentions. Given they have not edited almost anything outside of the topic it has almost the same effect. Still, it leaves plenty of room for Clarawood123 to edit on something else. But before any ban at all, we should ask Clarawood123 to edit also on other topics, and let this one article grow mostly from other contributions for a while (it just passed a deletion discussion, it will most likely not be in any risk of deletion any time soon). And within a month or so, we either have a new editor, or we are sure that we do need a ban. Banning now would be based on a wild guess, that is not fair, nor useful, and quite BITEy. - Nabla (talk)

User:Nabla I get what you are saying in theory, but you should actually come try to improve the article. This person is completely unworkable. I am not exaggerating. Jytdog (talk) 07:51, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Jytdog Seems like the more recent changes have gone off without a hitch. Or maybe I'm misreading things. TimothyJosephWood 16:36, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

They have stopped reverting people, yes, but their comments on the Talk page remain 100% antagonistic and disruptive, and above all, just not helpful. Rather than discussing anything simply, every remark is full of accusation and disdain. Jytdog (talk) 16:49, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose I believe the user has good intentions, I say we give some ROPE and explain the situation. --QEDK (T ☕ C) 16:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

well its pretty clear to me this will be closed "no consensus" but hopefully with a good, clear warning. Let's hope it takes. Jytdog (talk) 07:14, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose and hopefully my final comment No matter how many times those such as User:Jytdog, User:CDRL102, User:Davey2010 or User:Fortuna Imperatrix Mundi state things about both me and the Clarawood page, or how plausible they sound, or how much other participants latch onto their assertions, it does not make what they are saying about me and the page true. The truth is the truth and the facts are the facts and I have now urged numerous times for sensible admins and editors to please look at this fully and take my comments on board and determine who has been telling the truth and acting appropriately through this affair by reference to the facts. No matter how many times they accuse me of being unable or incapable or unworkable it does not make it the truth. No matter how many times they plant suggestions of disruption, COI, SPA, etc etc it does not make it the truth. No matter how insulting or personally invidious they are to me it does not make their assertions true. As stated previously, multiple times, the article Clarawood is now factually wrong in multiple places, misreferenced in multiple places and in breach of copyright in multiple places. This has only got worse with each edit done by those supposedly "helping" and "fixing" it. This is because the sum total of knowledge most of them have about Clarawood was drawn from the article itself (though I have reason to suspect there are some who actually do and did have agendas to change the page from the outset to fit with their personal views of the estate). Stating this does not make me uncooperative or demonstrate that I have ownership issues, it demonstrates - as it has all along - that I am rightly concerned about the integrity of the article and of Misplaced Pages. What is the correct position to take here? Support someone who was attacked unjustly and was a victim of lack of process and disruption themselves and allow them to leave the article they wrote in a factual, referenced and legal state? Or support those who have wildly and blankly accused them of practically everything they could accuse them of (without evidence to back any of it up) and leave the article breaching copyright, factually wrong and misreferenced? The answer is also not to delete the article, the article was fine until the recent vandalising. I STILL hope that someone with a bit of clout and sense will look into this fully, see what has gone on here and resolve things to the satisfaction of all, with all accepting things in the spirit of cooperation and collaboration which Misplaced Pages is supposed to typify. I have tried to follow procedure to allow this to happen, next stage will most likely be arbitration Clarawood123 (talk) 07:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Wow. Clarawood123, I can see why they are so frustrated with you. You are really so self - absorbed that you cannot see what is happening right here in front of your nose. No, the next step will NOT be arbitration. The next step will be your editing privileges will be permanently revoked. Arbitration is for intractable issues the community cannot solve. You are rapidly assisting the community in solving this, and the solution will be you are site banned. This isn't a court. You have no rights here. If you are site banned, which is what is on the table and seemingly ruling the day, you will never be allowed to edit here again. So just exactly who do you envision is going to file an arbitration case? John from Idegon (talk) 07:50, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

.... You do realize you're digging a very big hole for yourself ..... Instead of "everyone's vandalizing this" and I'm going to Arbcom" etc etc, What you really need to be saying is something along the lines of "I've learned from my mistakes and they won't be repeated" or "I'll communicate with everyone better", To be absolutely honest I've been pondering on whether or not to oppose the siteban however you're making it extremely difficult for anyone to keep you here and it's clearly obvious you're not going to change your ways which makes the siteban all the more appropriate it, You really need to think about your actions and words from hereon in. –Davey2010 15:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose ban A ban is not appropriate for good faith editing. Having reviewed the disputes on the page, I am shocked that a ban would be suggested. "The next step" will be whatever it will be, and no one here can yet say what that will be until a consensus is taken, and at this point, consensus is divided. "No rights"? What strange talk this is -- All have rights until it is shown that they abused those rights. Clarawood123 (talk · contribs), please be explicit here about the copyright violations you allege. Grammar's Li'l Helper 08:29, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• WURT (Misplaced Pages Urgent Reform Team) has issued a press release to British newspapers about bias and bullying on Misplaced Pages. It refers to the Clarawood article as an example. WURT is angry about the unjust treatment of Clarawood123 but it has no connection with Clarawood123. Keep an eye on the newspapers. Ispitinyourgravy (talk) 10:27, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

And you felt the need to create an account ten minutes ago to tell us that...? Cheers :) 10:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Not to be confused with WERT (Misplaced Pages Extraordinary Rodent Ticklers), which despite public pressure, has remained conspicuously silent on the issue. TimothyJosephWood 10:49, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose site ban C'mon folks, are we really serious about a site ban for a newbie (account created Feb 4th 2016). Yes they are showing signs of ownership, yes they are argumentative, yes they post irritating "walls of words". But what I am sensing here is that just a couple of editors have got extremely frustrated with this and are lashing out with a subsequent pile on. To the best of my knowledge, this is the first appearance of the OP at this noticeboard. It would be totally draconian to impose a site ban, especially under a boomerang. Imagine what message that sends to other newbies here. I suspect Clarawood123 has learned a lot from this experience. ( By the way user:Clarawood123, do NOT go to arbcom - you will almost certainly regret it if you do.) I suggest this is closed with no action taken. Clarawood123 would benefit from some advice, perhaps from a friendly admin, and if they transgressed again, we could easily start to think about imposing sanction then. DrChrissy 21:18, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Very strong oppose. Site bans are for incorrigible LTAs, not for cases such as these. Clarawood123, I recommend you be careful here and not inadvertently dig yourself deeper. Arbcom will not improve the situation, trust me. Maybe a mentorship or some advice from a more experienced editor? GAB 23:12, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose - Wayyyy too soon for a site ban. With only 96 edits, no block log, and only for ownership issues and promotional edits (nothing that is egregious or grossly against Misplaced Pages policies) - there is much that can be done before we even speak of banning someone in this situation. We could offer mentorship or assistance to this user first. If things get worse and/or it becomes necessary, blocks can/should be imposed. If, after multiple blocks and repeated consistent issues continue to occur (to where WP:NOTHERE or other guidelines can be reasonably applied), only then should a ban be considered in this situation. ~Oshwah~ 03:35, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

User :RaffiKojian on 2016 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes

This report is about user User:RaffiKojian vandalizing page 2016 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes and using the page's talk for personal attacks against me. Several times he changed the background section of the article without discussing it on talk page. In two different sections on talk page I clarified myself. However he did not respond me in each case instead he accused me of editwarring and calling other users to take action against me. He continuously deletes my other contributions to article without discussing on talk.

My arguments were followings:

The main reason for clashes stem from continuing Armenian occupation and 600.000 Azeris displaced because of the Armenian Agression as it stated in the refernces from UN. I see some users just call all refernced information as propaganda and remove it.

The Armenian refugees from Azerbaijan is distantly relevant to Azeris from Karabakh expelled by Armenian forces. And it does not overlap with the pervious sentences in the paragraph. So I suggest mention Azeri refugges only. Otherwise we need to take Azeris from Armenia as well. Thanks.

No respond given by the user on talk page. Thanks Abbatai 17:54, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Two nationalists POV pushing against each other. Lovely.142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:25, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I take that back. Abbatai is a nationalist pushing his POV.142.105.159.60 (talk) 19:43, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

This may call for a boomerang. Abbatai has displayed a reluctance of taking into consideration the overwhelming disapproval of his edits at the talk page. He has continued to edit-war incessantly and this is a cause for concern. The thread below highlights many of these reverts. Étienne Dolet (talk) 20:53, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Along with User:RaffiKojian, User:EtienneDolet and some other pro-Armenian users acting as a gang in the article 2016 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes, removing referenced information and accusing other users of edit war. In 4 different sections of the talk page they were invited to reach consensus but they simply ignored all and continued edit war. Thanks. Abbatai 09:49, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Actually there was a pretty good consensus... everybody was in agreement except you. You determined that your belief that Azeri refugees are more relevant and deserved a more prominent position, and ignored the consensus that this wasn't a good enough reason. --RaffiKojian (talk) 11:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

By "everybody" you mean pro-Armenian users. However nobody responded me in talk page as I cited. Where did you reach the consensus? Abbatai 20:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't know their positions, and how can you say nobody responded to you?? 2 others wrote concerned with your reversions and POV, one of those two and a third user reverted your edits, a fourth said neither is more important, and a fifth user (TipToe) said he preferred both numbers be removed, not just the Armenians. These comments took place in the two sections in the talk page that I named after you. You've replied to them with nothing more than your belief that Azeri IDP are more important, so you've definitely seen the two consecutive sections about you I'm talking about here and here. You at no point stopped reverting the original wording in order to have any real discussion or reach a consensus. --RaffiKojian (talk) 03:23, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

In the first section you cited, you provided no reliable reason for your edits just accused me of edit war. and in the second even I explained it clearly via saying "This is an Armenian source says: 71,000 internally displaced ethnic Armenians live in the Nagorno Karabakh Republic. These refugees, along with hundreds of thousands of Armenians, were expelled from their homes in 1988-91, prior to the full-scale war in Karabakh. CIA: Refugees and internally displaced persons: IDPs: 622,892 conflict with Armenia over Nagorno-Karabakh". However you did not respond it either. Abbatai 05:33, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - I think all of the edits in question concern the addition or removal of content which is actually off-topic for the subject of the article. The "Background" section is just meant to detail the immediate background to this event, the 2016 clashes themselves, not an abbreviated rehash of the entire history and prehistory of the Nagorno Karabakh conflict. I have been bold and deleted this off-topic material . I hope my edit remains, that the Background section can then be expanded with legitimate content for the subject of the article, and that everyone will realize that this is an easier solution than arguing about content that really does not need to be in the article. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Isn't there a standing Arbitration ruling for Armenia and Azerbaijan? Probably best if this was dealt with there. Hasteur (talk) 21:52, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I saw that in the background section the number of Azerbaijani refugees was listed, but not the Armenian, so I added the number of Armenian refugees which is also a part of the background to what is going on. Abbatai, immediately switched the order so that the number of Azeri refugees came first - without comment. I reverted to the original wording, asking for a reason and for discussion on the talk page, which he eventually provided in the form of explanation you give above, which neither I nor anyone else agreed with. Me and a couple of others reverted his swap, but he kept going, even though I asked for a real Misplaced Pages reason to swap the numbers, not his own invented rationalization. I brought it up on the talk page for others to see his edit warring behavior as well. At some point he just removed the Armenian refugee figure completely, again without discussion or consensus. There was no other reasoning ever presented, nor was there ever a break in his reversions. I suppose it shouldn't surprise me that he would be the one reporting my behavior, when he was clearly going against the consensus and not willing to talk anything out. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:53, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

To add to what I just wrote - I went to look at the two links he shared here where he supposedly explained his actions in this case. The first referenced someone removing the number of Azeri refugees completely, which was not me and I don't see how that comment of his could be considered an explanation for his bringing the number of Azeri refugees ahead of the number of Armenian. The second link he provided has nothing to do with the discussion whatsoever. --RaffiKojian (talk) 10:58, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Wait did you just said "At some point he just removed the Armenian refugee figure completely, again without discussion or consensus."? I advise you to read talk page. I invited you several times to discuss the issue in talk page but in none of sections I wrote you replied to me. See and here I clarified myself why Armenian refugees should not be includes as such: "This is an Armenian source says: 71,000 internally displaced ethnic Armenians live in the Nagorno Karabakh Republic. These refugees, along with hundreds of thousands of Armenians, were expelled from their homes in 1988-91, prior to the full-scale war in Karabakh. CIA: Refugees and internally displaced persons: IDPs: 622,892 conflict with Armenia over Nagorno-Karabakh" Again I had no response from you. I do not say what I wrote was absolute truth and it was must for article. However I invited you to discuss it on talk several times you just ignored it and kept pushing your POV — Preceding unsigned comment added by Abbatai (talk • contribs) 14:36, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I said that. My mistake, you said you suggest the Armenian refugees should be removed, and then you removed them. Even as me and a couple of others were disputing that the Azeri figure should be moved forward in the article. It's your POV opinion that the Azeri IDPs are more relevant than Armenian refugees who had to flee Azerbaijan should be listed before the Armenians, and your even more POV opinion that Armenian refugees who did not settle in Karabakh are completely irrelevant and should be left out of the article. This is what was said in the talk page to you and in the edit summaries. You need a valid Misplaced Pages reason to make the changes you were making. You can't just say that the Armenian refugees aren't relevant, but the Azeris are, especially when multiple people are disagreeing with you and you just remove it anyway. I did not ignore it, I discussed it both in the Talk page under two sections I created with your username in them, and in my edit summaries in the beginning, before it was clear you did not care one bit what anyone else thought. --RaffiKojian (talk) 18:15, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I already disproved your claim ("I did not have any valid reason") in my previous post just check it. You could not have any valid argument except accusing me of edit war. If you did not agree with the information I provided better you would discuss it on talk page not reverting the page multiple times. Abbatai 20:19, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

This is what we had to deal with. Yes Abbatai, you already *told* us that Azeri refugees are more important and relevant and Armenians are not. We get it. We just wanted a real, NPOV reason, but that apparently is asking too much. Let it go. --RaffiKojian (talk) 06:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I explained it on talk page why? Azerbaijani refugees were from Karabakh where the conflict happened and they left their homes because of Karabakh War. However Armenian refugees were from Azerbijan and they become refugee prior to Karabakh War as a result of Armenian-Azeri tension. That is why they are distantly relevant to what is happening in Karabakh. You failed to respond it and never interested in discussing the topic instead you only started a topic claiming: "Abbatai is edit warring" in which you had only accusations against me. In this section as well I invited you to discuss refugges. Abbatai 08:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Abbatai

Please look into user Abbatai (talk · contribs)'s edits. Seems to be a single-purpose distuptive (for example, these edits ) user who was warned for his reverts at 2016 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) several times , but no results (for example, this edit he reverted 13 times since April 6 - ). Previously he was blocked 3 times for disruptive editing and editwarring . OptimusView (talk) 18:37, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Hello in each case I invited the users to discuss it on talk before changing however I had no respond on talk page. See it is absurd those users report me now instead of discussing the issue with me at talk in two different sections. Plus some pro-Armenian users remove referenced information the page needs some action by admins. Thanks Abbatai 18:49, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - @Abbatai, listing the Madrid Principles as you have is not supportive of the issue. Your clearly stated Anti-Armenian positions betrays your biased view. My advice is to step back from the argument, as Nationalist Agendas are not supported on WP. I do agree, however, with your concerns of the Armenian newspapers having an agenda that should not be supported on WP either, as the reliability of such source material, Armenian or Azerbaijan, actually being correct is extremely doubtful. All involved need to source reliable independent Journalistic reviews of the conflict. Nuro msg me 01:02, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Madrid principles was misused in the article at the beginning just one side of story "self-governance of Karabkah" was mentioned ignoring other parts. I had include what it clearly says. Do not get what is wrong with this. Abbatai 10:02, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment - I consider that all of the edits in question concern the addition or the removal of content which is actually off topic for the subject of the article. The "Background" section is just meant to detail the immediate background to this event, the 2016 clashes themselves, not rehash the entire history and prehistory of the Nagorno Karabakh conflict. I have been bold and deleted this off-topic material . I hope my edit remains, that the Background section can then be expanded with legitimate content for this subject, and that both sides (if there are sides) will realize this is a better solution than arguing about content that really does not need to be there. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 16:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Hello, I partially agree with you. The paragraph can be reduced to a few sentences. However you miss lots of points. The things you mentioned on talk: “Aggressive rhetoric by Azerbaijan, something of the previous clashes, military spending and procurement of advanced weaponry by both sides" they all stem from de facto independence of NKR and occupation of Azerbaijan. The entire world except Armenia and NKR call Armenian persistence in Azerbaijan as occupation and UN called withdrawal of Armenian forces from Azerbaijan several times. Technically all is happening within Azerbaijani territories. And 600,000 to 1 million Azerbaijani refugees are core point as it changed demographic of NKR drastically. Indeed this clashes stem from ethnic conflicts between Armenians and Azerbaijanis. So ignoring that facts makes hard to understand why all this happened. Thanks Abbatai 18:56, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

You are now raising content issues about what post-1994-ceasefire pre-2016 clashes material should be added to the Background section. If you were to stop arguing about what pre-1984 material from the main articles, material that these core articles can handle better, should be picked out for inclusion in this article, and recognize that none of that material is really needed since a link to the main articles' suffices, them maybe we can start to discuss what the post ceasefire background content should consist of. Because of all the editing disruption concerning pre-ceasefire material, no such discussion has been possible so far. Tiptoethrutheminefield (talk) 19:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

• Comment - No, you certainly did not invite anyone to discuss anything before you swapped the order to bring the number of Azeri refugees forward. You also never gave a real Misplaced Pages reason for it, merely stating your opinion that Azerbaijani refugees were more relevant than Armenian refugees. A blatantly POV explanation. I asked you to stop, I asked for discussion, I changed the wording, you did not care. Azeris has to come first. Even though at least 3 people disagreed with you and reverted your POV edit, you just kept reverting it back, and eventually completely removed the Armenian refugees without any discussion. That's just plain vandalism, and I also pointed that out on the talk page. You just don't care. --RaffiKojian (talk) 11:20, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support His edits to 2016 Armenian–Azerbaijani clashes show a pattern of nationalistic POV pushing, sometimes in a subtle manner. Baking Soda (talk) 14:45, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Another groundless accusation by User:RaffiKojian. I did invite you just check this: (See talk background/ background refugees sections) Please do not change before discussing it at talk.) and so on. And Baking Soda just deleted sourced information I added the article and accuses me here. Getting funny. Abbatai 15:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

  Support Per Baking Soda142.105.159.60 (talk) 03:17, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

R2-45 copyright policy violations

The article R2-45 links directly to an external web source (tonyortega.org) that (according to the text on that page) carries a unauthorized 3-minute excerpt from a lecture by L. Ron Hubbard, copyrighted by the Church of Scientology. My understanding is that this violates WP:ELNEVER. That article also links to a shorter recording on Wikileaks. The local editors accept that copyright is claimed on the material, but they revert my edit when I remove the links. They argue, under various theories, that the Church of Scientology cannot enforce copyright on the materials. They also argue that linking is OK if it is for a different purpose. The editors involved are Damotclese (talk · contribs), Slashme (talk · contribs), Feoffer (talk · contribs), and Prioryman (talk · contribs). When I removed the link, I was "warned" by an opposing editor that my insistence on following WP:POLICY on this and other issues is "continued tendentious editing". Damotclese (talk · contribs) also copy/pasted a complete Scientology document (purported) into the talk page, in disregard of WP:COPYVIO, to support some point of argument with another editor. These actions suggest some or all of these editors are WP:NOTHERE to build an encyclopedia, but to promote a particular view of the subject. NB: I do not represent Scientology, and I have no personal knowledge of the genuineness of those recordings. They may be false (in which case they are fraud or forgery) and they may be true (in which case they violate WP policy on copyright). Whether false or true, the content is inappropriate and against WP policy for external links. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:40, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Just noticed article now includes a "non-free" scanned image from a copyright Scientology magazine uploaded by Feoffer (talk · contribs). This should be considered a separate but related issue -- that is, each instance of suspected copyvio should be considered separately. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 21:51, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Since the Church of Scientology is an organization, they have the ability to claim copyrights on documents and restrict their reference or use by others. If the document is copyrighted and the tonyortega.org source is violating that copyright, the source should be removed from the article per WP:ELNEVER. This also applies to the wikileaks source (and honestly, I wouldn't reference anything from Wikileaks if I were writing an article). I wouldn't think that the removal of a reference that potentially violates Misplaced Pages's external links and copyright policies would constitute as a violation of any discretionary sanctions on an article. However, if articles under the subject of Scientology are under 1RR restrictions, then removing and restoring the sources back-and-fourth is a very bad idea. The question I have is... are these documents actually under a copyright that restricts the use of those sources? My first thought is yes and these sources should be removed. ~Oshwah~ 22:52, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Copyright isn't a black and white argument. There is WP:NFCC and WP:Fair use to consider. If the material provides the best context for the education of the reader, it can be used. I haven't read the article or the diffs, I'm simply pointing out that "It's copyrighted" it's the end-all to this question.--v/r - TP 23:03, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed. I just reviewed WP:NFCC and I'm looking at WP:F now. Striking out my "first thought" from the previous response. ~Oshwah~ 23:12, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@TParis: Just speaking about the image, File:L Ron Hubbard R2-45 Racket Exposed ads.png. WP:NFCCP #8 is at issue here. Also, it definitely fails WP:NFC#UUI #15. --Majora (talk) 23:19, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree (regarding the image). Still looking into the concerns regarding the sources. ~Oshwah~ 23:21, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@Majora: WP:NFCC #8 is the most subjective criteria of them all. Needs a discussion regarding it on the talk page. Although, I tend to agree with you. NFCC #8 is met when the article is about the NFC and the context of the NFC cannot be described in a suitable way without the NFC.--v/r - TP 23:27, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

@TParis: Ignoring NFCC #8 it still runs afoul of NFC#UUI #15 (a pretty clear cut unacceptable use). I'm going to put it to FFD as soon as I'm done with one other thing (if someone else doesn't get to it first). --Majora (talk) 23:32, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Just to follow up. I started a FFD discussion on the image. As for the external links, unless we can prove for certain that the person has permission to post that video it is pretty much like posting a potentially pirated YouTube video. As such, it is my opinion that the link should be removed citing WP:ELNEVER. --Majora (talk) 00:24, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I also agree that the image should be deleted under NFCC #8, and I've removed it from the article. Prioryman (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

As @Feoffer: says, this is a short excerpt of a much longer speech, and it's very clearly fair-use: it's the historical figure who created the topic of the article mentioning it in a lecture. It gives just enough of the speech for the hearer to understand clearly in what context it is being used there. Without hearing the explanation leading up to him mentioning "R2-45" you get the impression that he's just talking about shooting people, but this way you can understand that, yes, he's saying that "R2-45" means shooting someone, but here he's explaining that in his belief system, killing someone is just a very basic way of making the spirit leave the body. Saying that we can't link to an external site because it contains a 3 minute extract from a lecture that lasted an hour or more is a bit extreme. --Slashme (talk) 09:34, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree, but let's be clear about this: this is just an excuse being made by Sfarney to remove this source from the article. It is being used in the article to discuss US government papers published by Ortega relating to the topic of the article - not as a source for the lecture in question. He has only latched on to this copyright claim after (1) attacking Ortega's personal qualities in various places on Misplaced Pages; (2) claiming that WP:BLP applies either to L. Ron Hubbard or the Church of Scientology as a whole - an organization that claims 6 million members, 2 million more than the entire US federal government; (3) that the lecture shouldn't be used as a source because it's paywalled; (4) that a Church of Scientology publication shouldn't be cited because it is somehow "original research"; and (5) that the recording he's claiming is a copyright violation isn't genuine anyway. (Quite a turnaround, that!) In short, this is part of an ongoing campaign of tendentious obstructionism relating to this particular article. Prioryman (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

More personal attacks, and no diff links in support. WP:NPA. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 20:59, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Describing your behavior isn't a personal attack, it's a statement of fact. The ANI bearpit isn't the appropriate place to review your behavior in detail. Prioryman (talk) 07:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

(1) In Misplaced Pages, all "statements of fact" are supported with links and references; (2) ANI is not universally considered a "bearpit"; (3) This is very much an appropriate place to review my conduct; and (4) When an issue comes before the ANI, the conduct of all involved editors comes under review. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 22:15, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

It is not a personal attack to point out Sfarney has been on an extended campaign to remove material originating from Ortega and has taken to many venues to complain about our usage of Ortega as a source. The claiming that Ortega is a copyright infringer is but one in a long series of allegations cited as reason to scrub his reporting from the project. Feoffer (talk) 08:49, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

It is a personal attack to accuse me of running contrary to Misplaced Pages's purpose, but fail to provide the diffs to support the accusations. In this most recent case, if a diff were provided, the administrators could fairly judge whether I have accused Ortega of "infringing" on copyright, and they would find I have not. I do not know whether Ortega's recording is the genuine item. But as stated above, if it is not, it is fraud or forgery (or perhaps satire) and we should not link to it. If it is, we violate WP:ELNEVER if we link to it. Misplaced Pages has different rules from Ortega. We live by our rules, Ortega by his, whatever they might be. The only question before the ANI at this time is whether the R2-45 article violates Misplaced Pages's policies on copyright, as stated above. If you wish to broaden this question to other issues, follow the rules for discussion on this page. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 15:42, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Journalist Tony Ortega included a 3 minute excerpt of a much longer lecture for the purposes of reporting and commentary. Ortega was Editor-in-Chief of The Village Voice, his usage of the audio clip is in his reporting is certainly "in a way compliant with fair use". Feoffer (talk) 04:38, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Let's tell more than half the truth. According to the Observer, Ortega was asked to leave his position at the Voice in 2012: “He was increasingly obsessed with Scientology and had neglected almost all of his editorial duties at the paper,” the ex-staffer said. “Sometimes he wouldn’t even edit features.” We would not want that obsession to spill over into Misplaced Pages such that we forget our own policies about copyright, neutrality, advocacy, and verifiability. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 09:00, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

How is Ortega's job performance at the Village Voice relevant to the copyright status of the external link on this article? --Slashme (talk) 09:34, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

It's not. It does, of course, dualistically question his presence here. _Fortuna 09:43, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately Sfarney has been smearing Ortega in various places around Misplaced Pages to try to make a case that he shouldn't be used as a source. It's part of a pattern of bad editing that should earn him a topic ban under the arbitration sanctions currently in force in this topic area. Prioryman (talk) 14:36, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

But the first person to bring up Village Voice was in fact Feoffer who appeared to be trying to use it to give credence to Tony Ortega. It seems to be a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander. Either both are relevant or neither are. Which means it's difficult to criticise Sfarney for bringing it up in this particular instance as it was a resonable response to Feoffer's comment. The alternative option would be to suggest Tony Ortega's previous position at the Village Voice is irrelevant point blank. Nil Einne (talk) 14:50, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree, it's irrelevant either way. None of the content we're discussing relates to the Village Voice, so there is no point bringing it up. Prioryman (talk) 15:41, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

In that case, your primary problem is with Feoffer and should have been worded and indented as such. Nil Einne (talk) 18:12, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

We can discuss all of it without personal attacks WP:PA, and we can keep it relevant. Grammar'sLittleHelper (talk) 20:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I hope you recognise that that includes avoiding making personal attacks on the authors of sources, too. Prioryman (talk) 07:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

But there's no personal attack (as considered by wikipedia) on the authors of sources in this discussion. If the statement is true, it's as I said above, an acceptable comment in the context of this discussion. If it's not true, it's majorly wrong, but still not a personal attack. To be fair, I'm not sure if anything said on contributions is necessarily a personal attack either (although I only really read this subpart of the discussion), but it's significantly closer to one than anything said about authors of sources. Nil Einne (talk) 18:16, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

This question does not appear to have a consensus, yet. Is it still open and under consideration? Grammar's Li'l Helper 20:02, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree, there isn't yet a clear consensus, so let's make sure that we're aligned on a clear question: is it acceptable to link to a site which includes an embedded YouTube video of a three-minute excerpt from a lecture that is over an hour long, or does that violate WP:ELNEVER? --Slashme (talk) 07:59, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Legal threat

New user User:Vermicious Knids? claims to have "sent a certified letter to the legal department at Misplaced Pages" objecting to editors restoring sourced press criticism on the Ann Louise Gittleman article, which is fair enough, but they go on to publicly threaten those editors with "damages both real and punitive" for this "defamation". --McGeddon (talk) 14:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I have blocked them for engaging in intimidation. If they agree to stop using legal intimidation then I am happy to unblock, and I have let them know that. I have also asked them what their specific concerns are so we can take a look. HighInBC 15:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Please unblock them. They were not making a legal threat. Indeed, they said they "have no grounds to take legal action." What they said, basically, was it's bad to publish a hatchet job and it exposes both the WMF and the responsible editors to possible real and punitive damages. These things are true. Just point them to the bit in WP:NLT that warns them about using words like "defamation" and the reasons why that's a bad idea. What possible good is your block doing? People have a right to describe BLP content as defamatory, and to point out the risks involved in writing and publishing defamation. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 15:49, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

This comment was clearly designed to intimidate through a legal threat. And as for your "people have a right to..." comment, no. They do not. Not here. They are free to create their own web page and say what they want there and as far as Misplaced Pages is concerned, we won't care. But if they want to post comments on Misplaced Pages they must follow Misplaced Pages's rules, which include "no legal threats". --Guy Macon (talk) 16:39, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, people do in fact have a right to describe potentially defamatory content as such. That is not in itself a legal threat or improper use of wikipedia talkspace.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

This is a good example of WP:DOLT. Vermicious Knids? was pointing out possible defamation, but, in stating they contacted Wikimedia's legal department and requesting "any editors involved in these actions be stricken from any further editing and access to Misplaced Pages now an in the future", they created a chilling effect that came across as a legal threat. All that's needed here is an explanation to the user that articles can be cleaned up by bringing up concerns on the talk page or at theBLP noticeboard. clpo13_(talk) 16:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Overt legal threat, maybe not, but intimidation, certainly: "I have sent a certified letter to the legal department at Misplaced Pages notifying them of the intent of those on this page to defame a notable person, which exposes Misplaced Pages and its principles and any editors involved in potentially dangerous actions that can lead ultimately to damages both real and punitive. I assure you that they will review this and take action so any further actions regarding posting of negative reviews editorials and opinions that have no real purpose except to damage a notable person be noted and removed, and any editors involved in these actions be stricken from any further editing and access to Misplaced Pages now an in the future." Those are strong implications. GAB 16:54, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

That's not a legal threat, that's running to mummy. That's, "I'm going to tell the WMF that you're being really shitty editors, and you're going to be in big trouble." And so they should be if the article is a hatchet job. Read. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:NOFREESPEECHHERE. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:09, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Here's a thought. Why not ping WMF legal to this conversation? I would bet dollars to doughnuts that if they received such a letter they would apply an office Block to the OP. Pretty clearly you can either edit here or take legal action not both. Sending certified mail demanding some action be taken is a common first step to legal action. Seems right to me. John from Idegon (talk) 17:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

(ec)It would certainly qualify as a legal threat, EXCEPT it's being directed at Misplaced Pages itself, not to an external entity. It could just be a bluff, but a few years ago a user named Xanderliptak successfully intimidated the Wikimedia folks into doing his bidding, despite his complaint being bogus. So be careful. Be sure the article's sourcing will pass rigorous examination. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 17:54, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I am not making legal threats merely notifying you of the potential legal ramifications of blatant bias and how it could expose you and Misplaced Pages to legal action. Please bring it up to the Administrators. This is informational and I cannot threaten anyone as I have no grounds to take legal action. cannot reasonably be considered a legal threat. NE Ent 17:55, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• The intent of WP:NLT is to prevent the use of overt intimidation to coerce changes to content or exert a chilling effect on other editors. It is impossible to see these comments as anything other than coercive. We block for that. We have a route for people with genuine legal concerns to contact WMF and the editing community, i.e. OTRS. And if people get blocked then clarify that this is not what they meant, they get unblocked. I really do not see why we should argue over the letter of the meaning of the word "threat" when the clear intent of the policy has been met in this way. Guy (Help!) 21:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Rather than immediately blocking users who post apparent threats, administrators should first seek to clarify the user's intention. In fact, it was clear from the remarks quoted above by NE Ent - remarks made before HighInBC flourished his tool - that the user had no intention to sue. This is a person upset by a very negatively-toned BLP. They should be handled with sensitivity and care. Counselled. Helped. Not fucking blocked. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 21:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Regardless, the comments implied attempts to coerce. If the user clarifies this was not the intent then they can be refactored and clarified and the user the unblocked. Protecting the project against coercion has, IMO, a higher priority than enabling a WP:SPA to continue pursuing an agenda. All things considered, this is a user with a couple of years of history of doing fuck all but promoting a quack. Guy (Help!) 23:26, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Before unblocking, someone should find out if he really did contact Wikimedia attorneys or if it was just a bluff. Xanderliptak was never unblocked after running to those same attorneys, nor should he have been. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

(Do I seriously need to say this?) It's not a blockable offence to complain to the WMF that editors are defaming people and ask that those editors be sanctioned. My last word on this. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 22:13, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

He could stay blocked until his true intentions (if any) become known. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 22:16, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• Two important points: first, this is a WP:SPA whose edits all serve to promote the subject. Second, the subject is a quack. Guy (Help!) 23:28, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

"The loose collective running the site today, estimated to be 90 percent male, operates a crushing bureaucracy with an often abrasive atmosphere that deters newcomers who might increase participation in Misplaced Pages and broaden its coverage."
— Tim Simonite, Technology Review

does far more damage, long term, than the "intimidation" caused because someone send a letter to WMF legal. Yea, sure this particular editor may not be of great benefit to the project, but a policy of blocking every SPA -- we were all "SPA"s after our first edit -- sends a message "newcomers need not apply." Not good. NE Ent 23:38, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Newcomers who are only here to promote something, "need not apply." As with Xanderliptak, whose sole purpose was to promote his graphic design skills. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 23:54, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

You say. I disagree: reliability is important, ans SPAs who are here to promote quacks are a resourse which has a massive excess of supply over demand. Guy (Help!) 23:08, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Of course reliability is important and I didn't say "don't block pov editors (spa or not)" -- what I did say is a policy of blocking every SPA is counterproductive, especially when they're not violating policy. "I am not going to sue" is not a legal threat. "I discussed something the WMF legal team" is not a legal threat. Block persistent vandals and trolls and edit warriors and doxers, don't block a newbie because they don't grok the wiki-bureaucracy in the first day. NE Ent 23:46, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

I find it amusing that we're Wikilawyering over the definition of a legal threat :-) This commentary form the user was clearly intended to coerce, and that IMO was the problem. Guy (Help!) 09:41, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

@Anthonyhcole: "Rather than immediately blocking users who post apparent threats, administrators should first seek to clarify the user's intention." The intention of the user was not in need of clarification The comment was clearly meant to have a chilling effect. It described a desired outcome, it spoke of taking action. We don't allow intimidation here, legal or otherwise. To do so would compromise our neutral point of view.

This recent trend towards tolerating legal threats(carefully worded or otherwise) does not serve our project or our editors. I also don't think it enjoys consensus. I think the block is valid and it should stand until the user agrees not to engage in future intimidation. If they agree to this very reasonable standard then I have no objection to the block being reverse with a close eye kept on them.

I have explained to the user again how they can come back here. HighInBC 03:25, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Good Block even assuming that the user didn't intend to issue a legal threat or to make a chilling statement (which is the substance of WP:NLT) the username they chose is one of a species of villains in a children's book. Based on the pointy username they chose and that they went for specific language and then went retroactively to shade it to be not as bad, but the chilling effect is done. If the Legal Office does see merit in addressing the user's complaints, they'll address it. I'd prefer that the user not be unblocked for the Pointy/Disruptive editing that they've already engaged in. Hasteur (talk) 22:13, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Note I attempted to BOLDLY redacted the post for readability by removing a multitude of bullets above and below the text under discussion here. Somehow it seems my edit overlapped with another resulting in the inadvertent removal of a lot of text. I repaired it as soon as I noticed. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:36, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Note I have unblocked User:Vermicious Knids? based on their agreement not to engage in intimidation legal or otherwise. As far as I am concerned this is more than enough for them to return to editing here. I have advised them on a more appropriate way to make their concerns known. HighInBC 14:26, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

64.229.246.209 disruptive behaviour

Please see the IP 64.229.246.209 (talk · contribs) recently active at Talk:List of universities in Canada#Algoma and Talk:Canada Day#See also. Contributions to Canada Day and Battle of Ontario. Battleground mentality and attacks at the above two talk pages, the latter of which subject to much past battles waged by sock UrbanNerd and PhilthyBear. Edit summaries featuring "lol", "peacock terms", "nonsense" and pushing BRD. (Credits from Hwy43's response). Further, he unnecessarily attacked, with this unkind response, ElKevbo (because of ElKevbo's revert on his change to List of universities in Canada) on his talk page (and typical of a UrbanNerd/PhilthyBear) message. (Credits from Miesianiacal's response).

On April 12, after he told me to take my change to the talk page (likely out of spite and retaliation after discussions on Canada Day), which I did, he continued to make wild hypocritical accusations and doesn't seem to like discussion, as he doesn't try to aid it after constant pleas for suggestions, but rather adds fuel to the fire. After one suggested change from Dbrodbeck, I agreed with it and gave a new one. After the talk page became dormant for almost three days, I updated the article based on no further users responding. The IP was also dormant for those three days with his last edit to Winterysteppe's talk page. Within an hour of my update three days later on April 15, he was very quick to revert it which shows he was still coming to Misplaced Pages likely only to see if a change was made to that page. This user may be a suspected sock and clearly has not learned from the past and is clearly not here. Thanks for taking the time to review this. Vaselineeeeeeee 23:27, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

At the very least, this deserves a WP:NPA block. clpo13_(talk) 23:31, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I'm almost positive this is UrbanNerd/PhilthyBear, who was indef blocked for a raft of reasons, This anon should therefore not be allowed to edit Misplaced Pages at all and 3RR shouldn't apply to reverting his edits. Then there's that message to ElKevbo, which, yes, should be reason enough in itself for a block.

There's a bigger problem here, though, of UrbanNerd/PhilthyBear coming back to disrupt Misplaced Pages using multiple IPs--see UrbanNerd's talk page for a list. I don't know what the solution to that could be. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 23:39, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

For the last few days, myself & many other editors have been getting phony block warnings from an evading banned editor. It's quite possible there's a connection. GoodDay (talk) 02:14, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

The IP reverted my ANI notice on his talk page (like he always does with messages) if it looks like I didn't give him one. Vaselineeeeeeee 03:45, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Just found another IP sock active May through October last year – 216.48.162.150 (talk · contribs). Caught this reviewing the edit history of Battle of Ontario to determine who was responsible for non-neutral opinion at the expense of my (and his) thirtieth favourite hockey team. This "remove fluff" edit summary then reminded my of UrbanNerd's use of the same edit summary language. Also, compare this second IP's contributions with the most frequent articles edited by UrbanNerd. The interests in Battle of Ontario, Ontario, List of tallest buildings in Canada, light rail transit (Light rail in North America and Light rail in Canada), and Montreal are just uncanny. Hwy43 (talk) 08:13, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

And he's now just sent me a mild personal attack. This isn't the type of behaviour we should tolerate and certainly is not learning. Vaselineeeeeeee 12:09, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Typical behavior from an evading banned editor. The best way to deal with it, is to WP:DENY the evader recognition. Merely revert, block & ignore them. GoodDay (talk) 12:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Typical sort of non-insult. Puerile vandals like these always make these sorts of insults thinking it makes them sound like a tough nut but in reality just shows how pathetic they are. Liberal application of WP:DFTT. Blackmane (talk) 11:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Community Ban Proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• Support Community Ban for UrbanNerd/PhilthyBear - this is the last stage of our process. Considering the amount of disruptive socking, it appears overdue. Jusdafax 04:53, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support per above. Dbrodbeck (talk) 12:40, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support, of course. But, what will a "community ban" achieve that the indef block didn't? --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:39, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support community ban. As a WP:RETENTION member, this pains me to do this. But, it's necessary. GoodDay (talk) 03:44, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support - this user's sockpuppetry and disruption outweighs any positive contributions this user has made to the project. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 03:49, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support any and every punishment available to throw at this editor. However, what does a community ban really do? This guy just sock hops from IP to IP now. Does the ban prevent that from happening at all? Also, do we need to start a formal SPI on this as well? I'd be curious to know if a CheckUser reveals if this editor is also operating under a new registered account that has gone undetected thus far. Can't recall if a CheckUser can confirm that or not. Hwy43 (talk) 07:10, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support. Persistent disruptive socking only has one response. @Hwy43: a community ban means that any sock account this user creates and is identified is blocked indefinitely straight away with no recourse to appeal using that account. Any edit of theirs, constructive or otherwise, may be reverted with extreme prejudice without running afoul of WP:3RR or be considered edit warring. SPI is useful for logging their socks although if their socks are obvious a WP:DUCK block may be levied without the need for a CheckUser to be run. However, it is sometimes useful to request a CU to identify any sleeper accounts. Blackmane (talk) 02:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Interesting. Thanks for the explanation. --₪ MIESIANIACAL 03:54, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, Blackmane. Is it any worth to also consider semi-protecting articles frequented by UN/PB so that only autoconfirmed users can edit them? Hwy43 (talk) 05:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Depends on how many articles this particular vandal hits. If it's too many, it may be problematic to apply semi protection to them all as it will hamper not only vandals but also good faith IP editors. Unless an obvious range of IPs are used, in which case a range block may be possible provided the collateral damage is assessed to be minimal, playing whack a mole is usually the way to go. Blackmane (talk) 11:39, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support, if it's not already apparent. Vaselineeeeeeee 14:57, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

BLP revdel on the Gamergate Talk page

Discussion

I am asking for a review for a revdel made on the Gamergate Talk page. The edit was made by MarkBernstein, who has since been topic-banned (not for this edit or anything directly related to this). It is verbatim, a passage from the Washington Post article, so cannot be deemed "unsourced or poorly sourced", which is the criteria for BLP removals without consensus. Ironically, the passage which was redacted is debunking/casting doubt on the allegations. I am not even allowed to refer to what it was about, since my edit was also revdeled. The link to the Washington Post article is here. The relevant passage starts with: There is, to be clear.

Various rationales have been advanced on the talk page (see discussion here), but none of them stand up to scrutiny. IMO, this is a wild overreaction. The normalization of this kind of overreaction and weaponization of BLP on the talkpage has poisoned discussion and led to lots of strife, both pro- and anti-GG, for more than a year. Anyone who has engaged in discussion on WP knows how aggravating it is to have your comments refactored or redacted, by people who you don't particularly like. It's time this behaviour was rolled back. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 11:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• Why? Misplaced Pages is not an exercise in free speech or anything else unrelated to development of the encyclopedia. Is someone suggesting an article should include mention of the person named in the linked article? What is the purpose of posting the link other than because we can? Editors should stick to discussion of actionable proposals that might plausibly improve the article, not prolong the agony of gamergate. Johnuniq (talk) 12:37, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• I am quite unclear on what criteria are used to determine when to delete a revision on that talk page. Further, the practice of deleting verifiable information about claims which are relevant to (or already in) the article from the talk page is infantilizing. Protonk (talk) 13:04, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• WP:BLPTALK is quite clear that where potentially problematic BLP info is *being discussed for inclusion in the article* a link to the source that will be used as a reference should be included on the talk page. Pasting an except from the source is not required (or even recommended if it turns out it is an issue) likewise if the material is not actually going to be included in the article at all then there is no need to discuss it on the talk page. From looking (briefly) at the talkpage, it looks like this is a case of the latter rather than the former. Washington Times (a reliable source) excerpt pasted by Mark Bernstein, no actual discussion for anything to be included into the article, so its basically pasting BLP-sensitive material for no purpose. It probably should have been removed and rev-del' unless there actually is going to be a discussion about incorporating it into the article. Then a link to the material should remain. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:20, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
  • I disagree that it is so clear. Here's what BLPTALK has to say "When seeking advice about whether to publish something about a living person, be careful not to post so much information on the talk page that the inquiry becomes moot." I cannot interpret that as an injunction against talking about it there, considering how much was on the talk page about the subject before. And given that amount of discussion, we shouldn't expect that the content would never appear on the page. If it were to appear, how would editors working on a contentious topic discuss the changes to the page, the author's meaning or the veracity of the claims without running afoul of that interpretation? Protonk (talk) 13:55, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Well its not an injunction not to talk about it. The point is that you talk about it *if you are attempting to work it into the article* - I cant see that anyone was. It was just Bernstein doing his usual soapboxing - which is why I support it being removed on that basis. If it was intended to be a proposal to incorporate it into the article, it should have been linked to and discussed. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:58, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
      • We're talking about this edit, correct? Sure, it's turned up to 11 and what-not, but the underlying ask seems clear to me. As I say below, they contrast it with an extant source in an ongoing discussion about how/if the subject should be portrayed in the article. How is that not a reasonable interpretation? Protonk (talk) 14:06, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
• The revdel was appropriate. The content included highly defamatory material about a living person. Just because some newspaper decides to publish unsubstantiated rubbish doesn't mean we can repeat it when not particularly relevant. Misplaced Pages era on the side of protecting the reputations of living people. Mark was trying to make a point, but in the process exposed this defamatory material. It would be sufficient to say Gamergqte tactics include opposition research and publication of unsubstantiated claims. It is not acceptable to repeat the unsubstantiated claims on Misplaced Pages. Our standards are higher than many newspapers. Jehochman 13:26, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
  • Horseapples. On what planet does that article contain defamatory material? I guess if we jumble the words in the article and re-arrange them to recreate the defamation the article was discussing that could work. Protonk (talk) 13:31, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
    • Well technically the linked Washington Post article does repeat allegations about a living person *which if untrue* would be highly defamatory. However it would not be Misplaced Pages defaming the subject, it would be the people making the allegations. The Washington Post would probably get a free ride too given they are merely reporting said allegations. But I repeat, unless any of this is actually going to be incorporated into the article (which it could theoretically be, given the subject was fired from her job after allegedly a long period of harrassment by Gamergate) it shouldnt be on the talkpage at all. Only in death does duty end (talk) 13:48, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
      • I edit conflicted w/ a reply above that might related here. There was and is talk page discussion about the subject, so inclusion of the material is not a remote consideration. And I'm not clear on your meaning about the Post. We make countless claims on this encyclopedia that if false would be defamatory. To justify this, we rely on sources like the post as a matter of course. I'm not saying quoting out the gate is the right route. BLPTALK (as you say) warns against it. But certainly redaction of the quotes is strongly preferable to deleting the material from history. Especially since if you read the comment from beginning to end it's clearly about including the material in the article and makes references to ongoing discussions about a different source they feel is inferior on the same subject. Protonk (talk) 14:01, 18 April 2016 (UTC)
        • Ah clearly I didnt read up far enough on the talkpage as I was stopping at Kingsindian's posts where he states that it wasnt about including it in the article. Since concensus already existed to remove the material from the article, revdel'ing what is clearly a BLP1E issue on the talkpage where no one is actually having a current discussion to include it still isnt that bad. (I get the feeling from the above talkpage discussion that the only person really for inclusion was Bernstein, and given his anti-GG viewpoint, unsurprising). Personally I would have just archived the lot which would be complaint with the BLP policy, but some people are more zealous about it. Re to Kingsindian below: If it isnt being currently discussed to go into the article, then it really shouldnt be on the talkpage. This isnt problematic in 99% of articles. It is potentially problematic with regards to living people. Only in death does duty end (talk) 14:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

To some of the comments above. Nobody said anything about free speech, so that is a red herring. Also, the discussion is about discussion on the talkpage, not the article. I find the standard that "if it shouldn't be in the article, it shouldn't be on the talkpage" rather silly. Nobody uses such a standard: otherwise 99% of the talk page history would consist of revdels. And please don't make me laugh with the claim that Misplaced Pages's standards of defamation are higher than the Washington Post. Not to mention that there is nothing defamatory in the paragraph: it is literally the opposite of defamatory; it is debunking/casting doubt on the allegations.

The main point is that WP:BLP is not a micromanaging tool to get rid of stuff one doesn't like. The effect of such (arbitrary) redactions is to inflame matters and confuse people. The redaction was a tit-for-tat action against an earlier redaction. This kind of stuff has to end. Follow policy as written and roll back the new normal. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 14:13, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

• I reverted your changes to the format. I doubt there's need for a poll like that in this discussion. Protonk (talk) 14:16, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

@Protonk: In fairly adequate experience in the Israel-Palestine area, I have found that in most discussions, most people don't change their mind. This format of "Discussion" and "Survey" is routine in RfCs I have participated in. I have reverted to the format. I meant to do this from the beginning, but forgot. There is no harm in it anyway. The closer would take it all into account. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 15:38, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I have left notices at WT:BLP and WP:VPP. Kingsindian ♝ ♚ 04:10, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Survey

• Oppose revdel. See my reasoning above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kingsindian (talk • contribs)
• Oppose - any quote showing up in a reliable source, used in a discussion as evidence to your side in an argument, shouldn't be redacted. עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 19:44, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose revdel if for no other reason doing so might cause, at some later point, the same thing to be discussed again. Having a record visible of exactly what was discussed, and, presumably, found not worthy for inclusion makes it less likely that similar discussion on the same topic will be actively initiated in the future. If the source were a more questionable or less reliable one, then, maybe, I could see some point in removing it, but I don't think that would necessarily be the case here. John Carter (talk) 15:07, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

IP hopping troll back?

A troll who has been hopping on IP range 86.187.x.x (last discussed here) seems to have returned on 31.55.89.19 (talk · contribs). Can somebody investigate and see if a new/revised rangeblock is appropriate? — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 16:28, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Yep, same chap. See also 31.55.127.56 (talk · contribs), 31.55.93.53 (talk · contribs) and he reverted Eik Corell, his other m.o., using 31.55.112.2 (talk · contribs) last week. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:54, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

That's a big range, but there's only about 100 contributions from it since April 1, and a significant plurality of those are disruptive. I'll block 31.55.64.0/18 for one week. ACC is always available. Katie 17:08, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I haven't come into contact with the 31. range, rather, it's still the 86.187 range for me, with the latest being 86.187.161.103 (talk · contribs). Eik Corell (talk) 02:53, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

They're both BT ranges, Eik. We realised that the 86.187 range meddles with airline articles as did the 31.55 range who also reverted one of your edits. I've blocked the latest IP as straightforward block evasion and will look into this a bit more later today. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 03:13, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I just remembered: One of the first IPs this year doing edits in the style of the 86.187 range was indeed an IP in the 31. range. Eik Corell (talk) 03:41, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I think that pretty much confirms that it's the same person. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 10:46, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposal to globally ban WayneRay from Wikimedia

Per Wikimedia's Global bans policy, this is a notice to a community in which WayneRay participated in that there's a proposal to globally ban his account from all of Wikimedia. Members of the community are welcome in participate in the discussion. --

— Cirt (talk) 19:12, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

That guy needs to be gone. Can non-admins participate? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 00:37, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Don't see why not. GAB 00:42, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Considering it was started by someone who is banned on enwiki, I think it's safe to say that everyone is welcome to participate on that RfC. Ajraddatz (talk) 02:16, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

And Cirt was kind enough to inform us here because the person who alerted the other wikis also happens to be banned on enwiki. Thincat (talk) 08:02, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Except now Cirt is proxying for a banned editor. Two, in fact. 107.181.21.54 (talk) 15:59, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

No, he's making the announcement in his own capacity as a member of the metawikipedia community. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 16:19, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Failure to yield

I'm coming here as User:Chickensire refuses to stop his disruptive editing after a number of requests from other editors to use edit summaries, and to cite his sources. He also refuses to stop changing geocoordinates on cities. Update: It appears that this user has issues with communication. Assistance needed. --TJH2018 talk 23:02, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

Not involved in the above dispute but I believe Chickensire has a long history of disruptive edits. Chickensire removed the child author category from Gordon Korman twice without an edit description or any other explanation: , . I reverted the first edit and posted to his talk page here: , but Chickensire reverted again without an edit description. The replies on the talk page seemed nonsensical and disruptive. FuriouslySerene (talk) 19:22, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I must add that I find most if not all of Chickensire's edits to be unhelpful. This editor is an unfortunate combination of prolific, disruptive, and uncommunicative. Many of (his) edits consist of bizarre campaigns to change wikilinks in an inappropriate way (such as this one), calling for a lot of clean-up in his wake. He leaves no edit summaries, and any communication with him tends to be chaotic and irrational, as in this discussion. Eric 19:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Another addition: Chickensire is also creating hundreds of redirect pages from names in ancient Greek and other languages, some examples here. They have been adviced in their talk page about categorizing them using {{R from alternative language}}, but never does. --T*U (talk) 20:47, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

There appears to be a previous AN/I about him. See 25. At this point, we need some admin advice. Pinging @Zzuuzz: --TJH2018 talk 21:24, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Chickensire has had warning after warning but doesn't seem to care. I've done my share of cleanup. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:56, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Proposed indef block of Chickensire

• Support - Long term disruption, with no meaningful response either on their Talk page or here, despite notification, calls for an indef. In the end we are looking at vandalism trying to fly below our radar. Time to pull the plug. Jusdafax 11:25, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Disruption at Bopomofo and related articles

A pair of IP addresses that are certainly being used by the same editor, Special:Contributions/209.66.197.28 and Special:Contributions/76.176.22.252, have been engaging since the end of March in disruptive and uninformed editing of Bopomofo and other articles involving the spelling and pronunciation of Chinese language terms.

For context: the edits involve replacing correct WP:Pronunciation given in IPA with meaningless "English"-like approximations (respellings without a key to give them any meaning), with unclear but certainly uninformed edit summaries such as this one (Pinyin is not a pronunciation system, and something can't be "pronounced in Pinyin"). Secondarily, there were arbitrary WP:ENGVAR changes and unjustified changes between Traditional Chinese and Simplified Chinese spellings.

They have been warned repeatedly with detailed explanations about what they were doing wrong by me and LiliCharlie, among other people.

However, the reaction consisted in futher reverts with bundled personal attacks and after more of the same, I think it's due time to report this.

Please see the addresses' contributions for further relevant diffs: many of their recent edits are relevant to this. LjL (talk) 23:19, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

I second LjL. The two IPs (obviously the same person) have already been blocked three times before for the same behaviour, but always resume their disruptive edits after the blocks expire. Time for a lengthy block, preferably 6 months or a year. -Zanhe (talk) 05:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

209.66.197.28 reappeared twice at Bopomofo today with their usual edit and called me (or us) stupid in one of their edit summaries. I guess Zanhe is right: Now it's time for a lengthy block. Love —LiliCharlie (talk) 16:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I agree- I just got my fingers burnt there, reverting the addition of unsourced, and I didn't even know this thread was here. It's at least a slow-burning edit-war, having gone on since March. In fact, perhaps that woud be the better place for this? _Fortuna 16:17, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

There was a further reversion to this IP editor's "correct pronunciation", and earlier today another with a summary that contained an obvious persona attack ("u were stupid enough to add this nonsense"). Please don't let their continuing claims of having "sources" sway you: this is not a content dispute, it's pure disruption. WP:PRONUNCIATION is clear, and replacing proper IPA with "bopomofo (which is correctly pronounced buh puh muh fuh)" is ridiculous, even when some websites actually give that sort of respelling as an approximate English pronunciation. WP:PRONUNCIATION is a guideline, and it's being repeatedly breached, despite numerous warnings. That's a fact even if Bopomofo has now been protected (but this editor has been doing the same thing on some other articles too). LjL (talk) 17:14, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• I see two 209.66.197.x IPs being used by this person at Bopomofo, both are registered to San Diego County Office of Education. Having looked at the range 209.66.197.0/24, I see multiple IPs, unconstructive edits, disruptive editing, multiple warnings and multiple blocks - indeed some IPs in this range are currently blocked (one is a school block for six months). Given this and since this person has switched IPs in this range, I have placed a school block on the 209.66.197.0/24 range for six months. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:18, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

@Malcolmxl5: sounds good, thanks. There is also 76.176.22.252 but that one hasn't been active in a couple of days. LjL (talk) 17:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I'm looking at the other, it appears to be a residential IP address. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 17:38, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

@LjL: I'm not going to touch the 76.176.22.252 IP for now as it is not editing. Should the person resume editing disruptively with this or another IP, ping me or report the editor at WP:AN/EW. As this person has used three IPs, I've put together a note at User:Malcolmxl5/Bopomofo to keep track, you may find it helpful to link to this when making any further reports. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 18:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Continued vandalism

Two IP's appear to be linked and are making the same disruptive edits at Trans Pacific Partnership and auto-related articles:

Edit history of IP #1
Talk page warnings for IP #1
Edit history of IP #2

The vandalism at the TPP article is exactly the same for both IP's:

IP #1
IP #2

Thanks.CFredkin (talk) 23:29, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Might be better to just WP:WARN the IPs. Two edits, though the same, doesn't require admin intervention imho. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 23:51, 18 April 2016 (UTC)

IP #1 has been warned multiple times by multiple editors (pls see their Talk page).CFredkin (talk) 17:13, 19 April 2016 (UTC) I'm just monitoring the TPP article, but a quick glance indicates that the editor (with the 2 sock IPs) is inserting a lot of spurious information in a lot of auto-related articles. Since it doesn't seem to be a concern here, I'm not planning to spend additional time on it. Cheers.CFredkin (talk) 17:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Titleblacklist addition request

I'd like to request an addition to the title blacklist. Sockpuppets of JellyfishFilms (see the SPI) have been perpetually recreating the exact same article about Domenick Nati, which was deleted after an AfD (WP:Articles for deletion/Domenick Nati). So far, the titles Domenick L. Nati, Domenick Nati II, Domenick Nati Jr., and Domenick Nati have been deleted and salted (well, actually, Domenick L. Nati isn't salted yet, but the rest are), and Domenick Nati I is currently tagged for deletion. It's clear that this is not going to stop (as Nati's twitter bio shows, he's very prideful about having a Misplaced Pages article), so I think the only way to settle this is to blacklist any combination of "Domenick" and "Nati"; that is, a regex like .*domenick.*nati.*. -IagoQnsi (talk) 03:53, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

omenick.*ati.* might be more precise. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:25, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: Titleblacklist entries are case-insensitive by default, so no need for the brackets. I suppose dropping the first .* is okay, though I foresee the article "Mr. Domenick Nati" being created after that. But I guess it can always be tweaked as needed. -IagoQnsi (talk) 04:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Ah, okay. That makes more sense. Didn't think of the Mr. possibility. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 04:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• I'll let someone more knowledgeable do the title blacklist but I've salted Domenick L. Nati. Not sure about Domenick Nati Jr., that seem to be a blank page. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 08:03, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
  • @Malcolmxl5: Ah, my bad, the page was Domenick Nati Jr. -IagoQnsi (talk) 15:28, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Added to blacklist. Draft:Domenick Nati II needs to be taken care of. MER-C 13:36, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• (Shouldn't it be .*domenick.*?nati.* since that middle * is greedy?) Crow 21:08, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Fixed. MER-C 23:59, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

While we're at it, should Jellyfishfilms's article creations be perused and raised to AFD as appropriate? Blackmane (talk) 02:17, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Attack page/COI (by socks above)

I found this attack page Misplaced Pages:Articles_for_deletion/Sean_McBride_(rapper) created by WikiWriter76. Can this be speedy deleted? --Lemongirl942 (talk) 10:46, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Update, it seems there might be a PR agency behind these edits. I have opened a report at COIN. --Lemongirl942 (talk) 11:55, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I have been deeply aggrieved by an anonymous editor ViperSnake151 and I want to be completely removed from Misplaced Pages

I have tried my very best to contain my anger with ViperSnake151 and other anonymous "editors" who know nothing of me or my record and of my work and have chosen to stand in judgement without disclosing themselves. I find this intellectually disingenuous and immediate request that my page be taken down completely and not directed towards anywhere. This is not a collaborative process, this is a hatchet job and judgements made by people with too much time on their hands. I don't need this and won't stand for it. I want Edward Beck (psychologist) and Edward Beck (professor) removed because the editors are completely misrepresenting me, my body of work and my notoriety in my different arenas of achievement. I would rather have nothing listed here than something inaccurate. I hope I have made myself clear. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dredbeck (talk • contribs) 12:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Crystal. But unfortunately it is not your article; you are its subject, not its proprietor. As such, it stays (On edit as part of the Middle East Peace article, of course). Cheers, _Fortuna 12:41, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

I have just restored the article, it was redirected without discussion a few days after an AFD closed as keep. -- GB fan 12:46, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

@Dredbeck: are you familiar with Misplaced Pages's guidelines regarding Conflict of Interest? Regardless, as per Misplaced Pages's core sourcing policy, the threshold for inclusion is "verifiability, not truth". — Kralizec! (talk) 13:37, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Bullshit. The threshold for inclusion is verifiability and veracity. Carrite (talk) 11:08, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

OP is technically evading a block for these legal threats. And the section "The Scholars for Peace in the Middle East" has me wondering if it could argued that WP:ARBPIA3#500/30 is applicable (but I'm about to go to bed, so I won't be carrying that out). Ian.thomson (talk) 13:47, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Good catch: since this accout was 'created on 13 September 2006 at 08:58', the legal threat was made whilst logged out and editing as an IP... which is now blocked. _Fortuna 13:52, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Let's not beat the editor over the head with wikijargon. The article is up at AFD and per WP:BLPREQUESTDELETE I'll post a note to the discussion there. Blackmane (talk) 02:08, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

User:Mad Hatter

Summary

This user has developed a pattern of splitting bibliographies and other works from writers/artists pages in contradiction to the guidance of WP:SPLIT, and without seeking consensus on article talk pages or any other venue beforehand. This could be forgiven before the user received proper warnings, but it has now continued after the receipt of such warnings and the user's promise to stop. The user's response to these warnings has been to personally attack me (baselessly) and to canvas for backup.

Note: It is not my assertion (or my belief!) that all splits of bibliographies are wrong; it is my assertion that proper procedure must be followed — beforehand — when those splits do not fall within the consensus-generated guidelines. To do anything less is to disrespect the consensus model.

(Pinging @Mirokado and Erick Shepherd:)

Redress

As my approach has not been effective (and I am open to criticism on that), I intend to extract myself completely from the matter, so I am seeking outside input to reinforce the points that consensus must be sought for controversial splits, and that personal attacks are never tolerated. If that fails to work, I seek a topic ban for this editor with respect to splits of articles on creative persons.

Supporting evidence

• From WP:SIZESPLIT: Articles with readable prose size less than 40 kB do not justify splitting on the basis of length. If there is any doubt as to whether the criteria are met, a discussion should be started and consensus reached.
• The user has never, to my knowledge, put forward a justification for splitting on any basis other than length.
• Jim Butcher, which user split on April 12, has a readable prose size of 10 kB, according to the script available at User:Dr pda/prosesize. This is one of many such splits performed before user was warned; I believe listing them all here is unnecessary.
• On April 12, at 19:52 UTC and 20:01 UTC, I informed user I had undone two of his splits, and asked him to seek consensus before proceeding.
• At 19:56, User:Mirokado reverted another split and asked user to provide explanation when performing large edits.
• At 20:03-06, user asked another editor, User:Erick_Shepherd, to interfere on his behalf, while attacking me as a "rogue editor". Erick_Shepherd agreed with me, condemned the attack, and again asked user to seek consensus before controversial splits.
• At 20:11, user again attacked me as "roguish" and "destructive" on my own talk page. (To be clear, I have never said anything about user's editing abilities; their ability to abide by community guidelines is a different matter.)
• At 20:36, user claimed that they would stop the splits. This was a lie, because...
• On April 18, at 00:06, user performed a split of Marion Zimmer Bradley, again without explanation and without any effort to seek consensus.
• At 18:23, I again warned user to seek consensus before controversial splits, after I had reverted the latest. User's immediate response was again to complain to yet another uninvolved editor, at 18:23, again misrepresenting my motives and seeking backup.

It is my conclusion that user has no intention of changing this pattern of behavior unless closely monitored or outright banned from these edits. I would like very much to be proven wrong. As stated above, I intend to remove myself completely from this matter starting immediately, in the hope that new voices will be more effective. —swpb 14:59, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Comments

• Oppose banning Mad_Hatter I just looked at the two splits that were commented on here ( Jim Butcher and Marion Zimmer Bradley). The splits look good, they remove clutter from the page. Even though the page itself may not be anywhere near as large as what the policy says it needs to be, there's definetly room for IAR here, and yes, Mad Hatter needs to communicate more and ease off the bold changes just a bit. KoshVorlon 17:33, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

• Endorse topic ban. Hatter is not just "splitting" articles; they're on a weird little jihad that often results in the removal of virtually all significant discussion of a writer's work from their bio article. That is in no way constructive. And they're simply cutting-and-pasting spun-out copy, making no effort to comply with licensing/attribution requirements. Comments like this just underscore the inappropriate, uncollaborative attitude that underlies the Hatter's editing pattern that swpb rightly complains of. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:51, 19 April 2016 (UTC)
• Comment That confrontational remark by Mad Hatter is way out of line, and is strong evidence of a refusal to collaborate with good faith editors. Unless that remark is withdrawn with a sincere apology and a pledge to collaborate, I support the topic ban. Cullen Let's discuss it 05:15, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Defend myself I have done splits on Fred Saberhagen, Robert Jordan, David Eddings, Peter F. Hamilton, Raymond E. Feist, R.A. Salvatore, Frederik Pohl, Gregory Benford, Mike Resnick, Glen Cook, Stephen R. Donaldson, L. E. Modesitt Jr., Timothy Zahn, S. M. Stirling, Eric Flint, David Drake, Tad Williams and Brandon Sanderson. Some of those pages have talks and messages dating for years. Anne McCaffrey that became such a heated argument for discussion and I am accused of violating the rules, has discussions dating back most consistently 5 years ago. I didn't think after I am qualified librarian and writer and have read many of these authors, that 1 day, I am doing it and then I will be shouted around after being bold and thinking that these Fantasy and Sci-fi category bibliographies should be filled out and that more writers with becoming huge bibliographies and "list of works"-sections can be easily read-out in special pages in bibliographies and even with good templates like those I did on Salvatore. I never thought that I will be pursued out by distinguished, respected and awarded editors and accused that I am not following rules, since I read many of the systematic rules and especially those of splitting and have been working here for more than 15 years. I am still for Anne McCaffrey and Jim Butcher split and I am willing to do it, but I don't like my work get reverted since it is no small deed to redirect them. The last thing I want is to get confronted and to offend such distinguished editors and my flamed remark wasn't very nice, I am sorry, but I don't like to see my work reverted. Especially, on pages that have minimal user attention on articles that have 3-4 messages or they are dating 4 or 5 years ago. I am sorry to both editors and I am willing to discuss it, but I think that it was possible not to revert the redirects, but rather discuss and convince me maybe some of those authors probably doesn't have such big bibliographies to redirect them uppermost. Kindest regards and greatest respect:The Mad Hatter (talk)

Block evasion (hopping) by IP vandal

There has been a lot of recent vandalism and content blanking on pages related to Top Model (e.g. America's Next Top Model (cycle 1), America's Next Top Model (cycle 2), America's Next Top Model (cycle 3)...) by numerous IP addresses from the IP range 2604:2D80:C007 (which I believe to be used by the same vandal). Today, 2604:2D80:C007:A4CD:30FB:522:594B:B4F3 was blocked for one week for vandalism (falsifying info; e.g. here, here and here) and blanking of content (e.g. here, here and here). Two hours ago, 2604:2D80:C007:A4CD:D0F9:1DF1:11B4:7B5C began vandalizing pages in a similar way (seen here, here and here). Linguist 111 18:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

It's the same guy with an IPv6 address. 2604:2D80:C007:A4CD::/64 blocked two weeks. Katie 18:55, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

Ban proposal for that UK referendum guy...

...aka Opinion polling for the United Kingdom European Union membership referendum, given his long-term pattern of reckless disruption and harrassment towards editors like Favonian and the like. GeneralizationsAreBad is in favour of it, but what do you guys think? Blake Gripling (talk) 00:21, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• (Weak) support. It's somewhat of a formality—he's already de facto banned anyway (no admin familiar with his behaviour is going to unblock him). In theory de facto or community banned makes no difference, but in practice it's easier to have a formal ban discussion and the notice on the banned editor's userpage to point to, because recognition of a de facto ban hinges somewhat on familiarity with the case. Admittedly, in this case the SPI case page with its dozens-upon-dozens of socks serves much of the same role when it comes to having a place to point to (hence the "weak" part of my support), so the absence of the discussion-and-tag isn't a big deal in this case. Nonetheless, having them wouldn't hurt the 'pedia any. AddWittyNameHere (talk) 02:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Weak support for the reasons mentioned above. The socks can just be blocked as vandalism-only accounts, since the edits are either harassment or disruption and will be reverted anyhow. For a case like Nsmutte, a ban is more helpful, because their edits are not blatant vandalism. Still, I see no reason not to slap another notice onto the userpage. Note also that the stated master is definitely not the original master. GAB 02:54, 20 April 2016 (UTC)
• Support although their names are constantly ridiculous enough that they just get blocked on site. Joseph2302 (talk) 21:39, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Well it certainly would make no sense to block them off-site. EEng 22:40, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

EEng#s I meant "blocked on sight" i.e. as soon as someone sees them on here, they block them anyway. Joseph2302 (talk) 20:01, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, duh! EEng 01:03, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

• Support don't see why not. EvergreenFir (talk) Please {{re}} 00:43, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Sandbox vandal

The sandbox vandal is back. I've caught it very early but be alert. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:27, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• You might want to delete up to my edit to your talk page, the sections with the images were still visible when you edit the page, and are now visible when you see the diff where I remove them. -- The Voidwalker 00:45, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Cheers, looks like they've been done now. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

No actually, they're right here. -- The Voidwalker 00:52, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Some revdel on that would be appreciated. Thanks. -- The Voidwalker 01:00, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Looks resolved. Six month ban by Malcolmxl5. Also, we should consider a NSFW tag on these sorts of things. TimothyJosephWood 01:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

There was one person, eight IPs. The files are hosted on Commons so that would have to be taken up there.--Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:32, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Here too -- The Voidwalker 01:09, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

@Malcolmxl5: Again at 67.78.42.86 (talk · contribs · WHOIS). 2601:1C0:4901:2191:1D5E:CC5C:E0F3:BC32 (talk) 01:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, blocked, etc. I've locked you out of your talk page for a little while, I'm afraid. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:17, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

FYI This guy is gonna put sum stuff on yo talk page. TJH2018 talk 04:02, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Article about User Ram-Man written by Ram-Man.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Ram-Man has created the article Derek Ramsey (Wikipedian), which is about him and entirely written by him. I started to write up an AfD, but I'm not sure what to do. There are clear problems... states an xkcd comic was created because of him, but there is no source for it. States a painting was created from one of his photos by a 16-year old with cancer, but there is no source for it. States his photos have been in several publications, true, but some come from commons and one has a ref to the homepage of a group. Misplaced Pages and interviews are used as sources. Hope the "smarter" brains here can help. Bgwhite (talk) 06:13, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

An impressive autobiography. Maybe I'll go polish up mine... Dicklyon (talk) 06:22, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) the article appeared to pass the AFC process. Also Ram-Man should have been notified of this discussion on his talk page. I added the notice to his talk page. --Cameron11598 (Converse) 06:37, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) A few of the sources are to Misplaced Pages, but apart from that they look okay. Would pass AFC I believe. Joseph2302 (talk) 06:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Above comment struck as I no longer agree with it. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:54, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

But fails notability rules, surely? I have never read such a load of old self appreciating claptrap in all my life! Other users do what he does everyday, why should he expect to have his own article? Imagine my disappointment to find that this was not an article about the other Ram Man. Now that would be worth reading! Cassianto 07:01, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

@Cassianto: I'm taking this opportunity to ping The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) properly. Your previous attempt to do so almost definitely didn't work, because it modified an existing comment and signature. (I discovered this while removing some stray text which you'd also added in that edit). Graham87 08:27, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

It did work, as did your ping Graham. Two pings for the price of one, both from an ANI thread entirely unrelated to me for a change! The Rambling Man (talk) 08:29, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I knew it would work Graham87 as I replaced my signature with four new tildes. Just so you know a ping only works with four tildes. As for the stray text, I left it behind not added it so you're wrong on both counts I'm afraid. But thanks anyway for your contributions. Cassianto 15:46, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

You mean you modified your response and accidentally left a few characters behind? I guess we can trust your memory of how it happened but despite being a master nitpicker on details, this seems excessively so to me. Either way your edit resulted in stray text which wasn't there before you edited. It's not like it was text someone else added that you didn't remove, as a simplistic reading of your comment may suggest. Nil Einne (talk) 16:28, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't see the big deal. I think you should move on. Cassianto 17:09, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Who said it was a big deal? No one in this thread did. And why are you telling people to move on when the whole reason for this discussion is because of an offensive comment you you made about an error you made. You made a very minor error when modifying your comment and left extraneous text. A very minor error and not something anyone would normally care about and which normally would have ended with someone correcting it. But when correcting your error, someone noticed what they thought was another error (a ping that wouldn't work) so probably mostly for this reason they commented. As it turns out this second error wasn't an error, and there was nothing wrong with you explaining that. But for some reason you also choose to respond in a fairly offensive way about the thing which was an error on your part, rather than simply accepting you made an error. Or if you really felt the need to explain how your error came about, offering a simple explaination instead of implying there was something wrong with someone not realising how your error came about. This still isn't a big deal, but it's a bigger deal than it needs to be. And there's no reason why someone can't call your out for that particularly since, getting back to what I said earlier, the only reason we're here is because your unnecessarily chose to call someone out who corrected your error just because their imagination of how this error happened was slightly wrong. (Which ultimately is largely irrelevant as I hinted earlier. The fact that you made an error is what's relevant even if not something that really matters.) Anyway I'm done with this discussion since I do think it's a very silly thing, but sometimes I just can't stand when I see editors being treated unfairly especially when they did little wrong. Nil Einne (talk) 18:01, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

(Non-administrator comment) Also I let DGG know about this discussion since he/she was the one that passed it through AFC according to the article's talk page... --Cameron11598 (Converse) 06:57, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Look out for an autobiography of Roxy the Dog, who has a star studded wikipedia career, but has never been an admin. -Roxy the dog™ woof 07:25, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

I passed it at AfC on the basis that approval at AfC means only that the article is likely to be accepted at AfD. Thee is no fixed standard for "likely". In accepting it, I advised the editor that "I have accepted this despite my misgivings, after making what I consider the minimum necessary changes based on comments at previous AfD discussions. I estimate it has about a 50 - 60% chance at AfD , but afd can be unpredictable. If it is challenged at AfD. I shall let the community decide." This is lower than my usual 80% level for "likely" but I think it is reasonable not to insist only on my own judgment. DGG ( talk ) 07:51, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

There is no doubt the article needs more eyes. I only had two users help clean it up, so it's obviously not done. I've checked numerous policies time and again, and I think it qualifies. Both myself and DGG assumed that it would be challenged out of the gate, just like nearly every Wikipedian is. See the list: Category:Misplaced Pages people. My attempts at trying to do this the right way can be found here. -- RM 11:49, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

He's got a few valid sources listed, but, really, this should be summarized into one paragraph and added to List of Misplaced Pages controversies. I tagged both pages and started a merge discussion at Talk:List of Misplaced Pages controversies#Derek Ramsey (Wikipedian) merge. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 07:54, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

• Misplaced Pages noticeboards