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== Comment == == Comment ==
"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." ] (]) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC) "Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." ] (]) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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I have just added archive links to {{plural:4|one external link|4 external links}} on ]. Please take a moment to review . If necessary, add {{tlx|cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{tlx|nobots|deny{{=}}InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:
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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20080828214003/http://taalunieversum.org/taalunie/toelichting_bij_de_overeenkomsttekst/ to http://taalunieversum.org/taalunie/toelichting_bij_de_overeenkomsttekst/
*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20070816125902/http://www.supremecourtofappeal.gov.za/speeches/mpati.pdf to http://www.supremecourtofappeal.gov.za/speeches/mpati.pdf
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Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 20:42, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

== Restructuring headings and reducing overlap==
I would like to suggest to restructure the article by moving and combining headings in a more logical order. Not only for a better understanding of the article, but mainly to reduce the overlap; A lot is mentioned twice or three times under different sections.

Combining and moving headings:
* Combining "1. Name" with "10. Popular misconceptions" (10.1, 10.3, 10.5 and 10.6)
* Combining "2. Classification" (the classification part) with "10. Popular misconceptions" (10.2 and 10.4)
* Moving "2. Classification" (the dialect part) to "5. Dialects"
* Combining "3. Geographic distribution" and "9. Dutch as a foreign language"
* There is also overlap between (the rather technical examples) mentioned in "2. Classification" with "6. Phonology", "7. Grammar" and "8. Vocabulary". I would suggest to mention only some notable examples under "Classification", move some to "Grammar", "Phonology" and "Vocabulary", and maybe omit a few aswel, since they reduce the readability of the article.

Reordering headings:
* Starting of with "Name" and "History"...
* ...out of which the "Classification" follows..
* ...and the difficulty some of the "Dialects" pose,
* leading to the "Geographical Distribution" from Dutch across the language borders in Europe, to the world at large.
* Finishing of with the phonology, grammar and vocabulary.
--] (]) 05:27, 17 February 2016 (UTC)


== External links modified == == External links modified ==

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Comment

"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." Speling12345 (talk) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Cheers.—Talk to my owner:Online 07:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Names of languages and dialects

Since I am going to revered the names of the headings, I have moved the discussion between User talk:Watisfictie and User talk:Ogress here:

Mainly for reasons of unity in the headings, I used in the History section Old Frankish as subheading, in line with the subheadings in that section Old Dutch, Middle Dutch etc. Do you have a reason to change this in The Frankish language (including even the article the)? Old Frankish is a very common name for the language. If you do have good reasons, in that case I would suggest to use in all subheadings the article the and the word language after the language in question. But it doesn't have my preference, since it feels redundant: it is pretty obvious that we are dealing with languages/dialects here (and not with the Frankish culture for example). Also, using articles in headings is not very common (for the same reasons of economy).

The same question with regard to the Middle Dutch dialects (article 'the' not used consequently, adding dialect/language after the dialect in question). Watisfictie (talk) 15:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

@Watisfictie: The languages are so named on Misplaced Pages. It's not "Old Frankish", it's Frankish language (because there was no Middle or New/Modern Frankish). I added "the" in that header because tbh it seemed really weird without it, but that's a style point I'm totally willing to adjust if you disagree. Same with the other edits, where they are called "X dialect". The exception is, of course, Limburgish, which is Limburgish language as it is referred to as a language. I also changed a term to "varieties" at one point, I believe, because it was neutral to the question of whether the following were dialects or languages. Ogress 23:43, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Old Frankish is an entry in Misplaced Pages, and it leads to the same page as Frankish language. Sometimes entries are known by more than one name (the United States for example, or trees and their fruit). This is the case also for Frankish (as the Misplaced Pages entry of Frankish points out in the first sentence of the lead where all the alternative names for the language are mentioned). This is the reason Misplaced Pages has a system of redirects. Nevertheless I have no problem dropping the "Old" in Old Frankish, even though it is the same language as Frankish.
But I am not in favour of using the formula "X + language" or "X + dialect" in headings or enumerations. Because they should be quickly readable, and in the case of enumerations it's too much repetition of the same word. The context of the subheadings under history, and the enumeration of Middle Dutch dialects is clear enough to understand the meaning. (And in the 5/6th century the different languages (Saxon, Frisian etc) where still mutually intelligible, so language and dialects in that respect didn't differ anyway. We refer now to them as languages, because they have lead to different languages in later periods).
Modern day Limburgish is a language or a dialect depending of one's perspective. The Dutch government recognises it as a minority language. In Belgium however, where the same Limburgish is spoken, it is not recognised as a language and regarded as a dialect of Dutch. That is not to say that the modern day Limburgish dialect/language is one of the most distant dialects/languages from the standard Dutch language. Apart from this, when linguists talk about Middle Dutch, they mean the Hollandic, Brabantic, Flemish and Limburgish dialects. (See also how it is used in the entry Middle Dutch. Watisfictie (talk) 05:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Dutch Low Saxon

The Dutch Low Saxon had a tagged sentence, "In other words, this group is Dutch synchronically but not diachronically." I have removed this as it neither makes sense nor is, I suspect, the original intent of the writer, and additionally (and crucially) has no cite support.

It is my suspicion that the reason DLS is considered Dutch is because of either 1. convergence and assimilation under Written Dutch influence or 2. confusion due to its closeness to Dutch due to convergence and assimilation. Either way, linguistically, the sentence is currently nonsensical. Ogress 19:16, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

7 de middag

Does "7 de middag" mean 7 AM or 7 PM. I think it's 7 PM. 112.215.64.134 (talk) 02:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I have never seen this combination. It would be something like "3 uur 's middags" (literally 3 o clock in the afternoon, which is 3 PM). If you would encounter 7 it would probably 7 's avonds (7 in the evening) or 7 's ochtend (7 in the morning). Arnoutf (talk) 12:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I've never seen that one either, but it could also be "7de middag" or "7 middag", meaning "seventh afternoon" (or "seventh noon" in the south). PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, how about "7 uur's middags"? 7 AM or 7 PM? 111.94.161.176 (talk) 04:34, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"7 de middag" resembles the common expression 7 uur in de middag. But 7 o clock is not in the afternoon, the middag ends at 6, I would say.--Watisfictie (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
7 uur's middags would be very rarely used (as indeed the afternoon ends at 6, so it would be 7 in the evening). But if 7 s middags would be used it would be definitely afternoon and thus PM. But let's not continue this much further as this is a highly speculative, possibly fully fictitious case that does not feature in the article; and it is not clear where this threat is going to for article improvement. Arnoutf (talk) 10:35, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
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