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Revision as of 15:03, 29 May 2016 editHebel (talk | contribs)Extended confirmed users9,369 edits →The map: new section← Previous edit Revision as of 00:19, 30 May 2016 edit undoLowercase sigmabot III (talk | contribs)Bots, Template editors2,298,789 editsm Archiving 2 discussion(s) to Talk:Dutch language/Archive 6) (botNext edit →
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== Comment == == Comment ==
"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." ] (]) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC) "Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." ] (]) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

== External links modified ==

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*Added archive https://web.archive.org/20031209231442/http://www.up.ac.za:80/academic/libarts/crpl/language-dev-in-SA.pdf to http://www.up.ac.za/academic/libarts/crpl/language-dev-in-SA.pdf
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Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 07:53, 24 February 2016 (UTC)


== External links modified == == External links modified ==
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Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 23:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC) Cheers.—]<small><sub style="margin-left:-14.9ex;color:green;font-family:Comic Sans MS">]:Online</sub></small> 23:15, 1 March 2016 (UTC)



==Names of languages and dialects==
Since I am going to revered the names of the headings, I have moved the discussion between ] and ] here:

Mainly for reasons of unity in the headings, I used in the History section ''Old Frankish'' as subheading, in line with the subheadings in that section ''Old Dutch'', ''Middle Dutch'' etc. Do you have a reason to change this in ''The Frankish language'' (including even the article ''the'')? Old Frankish is a very common name for the language. If you do have good reasons, in that case I would suggest to use in all subheadings the article ''the'' and the word ''language'' after the language in question. But it doesn't have my preference, since it feels redundant: it is pretty obvious that we are dealing with languages/dialects here (and not with the Frankish culture for example). Also, using articles in headings is not very common (for the same reasons of economy).

The same question with regard to the Middle Dutch dialects (article 'the' not used consequently, adding dialect/language after the dialect in question). ] (]) 15:27, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

:{{yo|Watisfictie}} The languages are so named on Misplaced Pages. It's not "Old Frankish", it's ] (because there was no Middle or New/Modern Frankish). I added "the" in that header because tbh it seemed really weird without it, but that's a style point I'm ''totally'' willing to adjust if you disagree. Same with the other edits, where they are called "X dialect". The exception is, of course, Limburgish, which is ] as it is referred to as a language. I also changed a term to "varieties" at one point, I believe, because it was neutral to the question of whether the following were dialects or languages. ] 23:43, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

:::] ''is'' an entry in Misplaced Pages, and it leads to the same page as ]. Sometimes entries are known by more than one name (the United States for example, or trees and their fruit). This is the case also for Frankish (as the Misplaced Pages entry of Frankish points out in the first sentence of the lead where all the alternative names for the language are mentioned). This is the reason Misplaced Pages has a system of redirects. Nevertheless I have no problem dropping the "Old" in Old Frankish, even though it is the same language as Frankish.

:::But I am not in favour of using the formula "X + language" or "X + dialect" in headings or enumerations. Because they should be quickly readable, and in the case of enumerations it's too much repetition of the same word. The context of the subheadings under history, and the enumeration of Middle Dutch dialects is clear enough to understand the meaning. (And in the 5/6th century the different languages (Saxon, Frisian etc) where still mutually intelligible, so language and dialects in that respect didn't differ anyway. We refer now to them as languages, because they have lead to different languages in later periods).

:::''Modern day'' Limburgish is a language or a dialect depending of one's perspective. The Dutch government recognises it as a minority language. In Belgium however, where the same Limburgish is spoken, it is not recognised as a language and regarded as a dialect of Dutch. That is not to say that the modern day Limburgish dialect/language is one of the most distant dialects/languages from the standard Dutch language. Apart from this, when linguists talk about Middle Dutch, they mean the Hollandic, Brabantic, Flemish ''and'' Limburgish ''dialects''. (See also how it is used in the entry ]. ] (]) 05:44, 21 February 2016 (UTC)


== Dutch Low Saxon == == Dutch Low Saxon ==

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Comment

"Dutch language, spoken in Aruba, Belgium, Curaçao, the Netherlands, Sint Maarten, and Suriname." Speling12345 (talk) 3:52, 13 December 2013 (UTC)

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Dutch Low Saxon

The Dutch Low Saxon had a tagged sentence, "In other words, this group is Dutch synchronically but not diachronically." I have removed this as it neither makes sense nor is, I suspect, the original intent of the writer, and additionally (and crucially) has no cite support.

It is my suspicion that the reason DLS is considered Dutch is because of either 1. convergence and assimilation under Written Dutch influence or 2. confusion due to its closeness to Dutch due to convergence and assimilation. Either way, linguistically, the sentence is currently nonsensical. Ogress 19:16, 5 March 2016 (UTC)

7 de middag

Does "7 de middag" mean 7 AM or 7 PM. I think it's 7 PM. 112.215.64.134 (talk) 02:10, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I have never seen this combination. It would be something like "3 uur 's middags" (literally 3 o clock in the afternoon, which is 3 PM). If you would encounter 7 it would probably 7 's avonds (7 in the evening) or 7 's ochtend (7 in the morning). Arnoutf (talk) 12:32, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
I've never seen that one either, but it could also be "7de middag" or "7 middag", meaning "seventh afternoon" (or "seventh noon" in the south). PiusImpavidus (talk) 12:48, 16 April 2016 (UTC)
Ok, how about "7 uur's middags"? 7 AM or 7 PM? 111.94.161.176 (talk) 04:34, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
"7 de middag" resembles the common expression 7 uur in de middag. But 7 o clock is not in the afternoon, the middag ends at 6, I would say.--Watisfictie (talk) 08:16, 17 April 2016 (UTC)
7 uur's middags would be very rarely used (as indeed the afternoon ends at 6, so it would be 7 in the evening). But if 7 s middags would be used it would be definitely afternoon and thus PM. But let's not continue this much further as this is a highly speculative, possibly fully fictitious case that does not feature in the article; and it is not clear where this threat is going to for article improvement. Arnoutf (talk) 10:35, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

The map

I have some objections to the map depicting the entire North Rhineland as the home of Dutch dialects. I suppose that in the vicinity of the Niers river some are spoken, but, though some of these Frankish dialects may not be Upper-Franconian, they can't be regarded as Dutch. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 15:02, 29 May 2016 (UTC)

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