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| If the first one on one country is acceptable to all and sustained, there should not be any issue with the second one of another similar country. If any, elaborate.--] (]) 12:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC) | If the first one on one country is acceptable to all and sustained, there should not be any issue with the second one of another similar country. If any, elaborate.--] (]) 12:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC) | ||
| :: It is more than a week by now and, there is no response to my above query. Hope there are no issues left with suggested change and, I can presume consensus for the above change of namely 'X' to 'Y'.--] (]) 03:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC) | |||
| == Infobox language == | == Infobox language == | ||
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Request for adding IAST of India
If there is no further improvement suggested to the change proposed just above, can we presume consensus on above?--Md iet (talk) 04:48, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
- The consensus above is clearly against what you are proposing, nothing has changed, no new reasons have been put forth to support your proposal. —SpacemanSpiff 04:52, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
As reasoned above, the new change proposed is :
Please change ‘X’:
'India, officially the Republic of India (IAST: Bhārat Gaṇarājya), is a country in South Asia.'
to ‘Y’:
'India (IAST: Bhārat), officially the Republic of India , is a country in South Asia.'
Explanation which was not discussed at all is: I am not adding 'Bharat' here as alternate English name but as a IAST common to billions of people. It was already there in term 'Republic of India (IAST: Bhārat Gaṇarājya)', now I am making lead more simple by deleting Sanskrit translation "ganrajya" which is not required in lead sentence, in place required translation 'Bharat' is added for India, in beginning itself. Hope this do not need any further English language sources for justification and, editors may agree for this change.--Md iet (talk) 02:47, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- WP:IDHT. —SpacemanSpiff 02:54, 29 April 2016 (UTC)
- There is no specific objections to this simplification suggestion so far, making the first sentence of the lead short and less clumsy. Any further comments if any are welcome.--Md iet (talk) 03:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hope by now I can presume having consensus for doing above simplification, and proceeding for the same.--Md iet (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)--Md iet (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- No you cannot. Simply repeating the same argument multiple times doesn't get you consensus. In addition to WP:IDHT suggested by spacemanspiff above, you need to read WP:TE and then follow that up with a read of WP:DE. --regentspark (comment) 14:31, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hope by now I can presume having consensus for doing above simplification, and proceeding for the same.--Md iet (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)--Md iet (talk) 06:50, 10 May 2016 (UTC)
- There is no specific objections to this simplification suggestion so far, making the first sentence of the lead short and less clumsy. Any further comments if any are welcome.--Md iet (talk) 03:01, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
Please forget about my all old arguments and compare the first sentence of lead para of article on Germany :
“Germany ( i/ˈdʒɜːrməni/; German: Deutschland, pronounced ), officially the Federal Republic of Germany or FRG (German: Bundesrepublik Deutschland, listen (help•info)), is a federal parliamentary republic in West-Central Europe.”
V/S suggested change "Y":
“India (IAST: Bhārat), officially the Republic of India , is a country in South Asia.”
If the first one on one country is acceptable to all and sustained, there should not be any issue with the second one of another similar country. If any, elaborate.--Md iet (talk) 12:53, 29 May 2016 (UTC)
- It is more than a week by now and, there is no response to my above query. Hope there are no issues left with suggested change and, I can presume consensus for the above change of namely 'X' to 'Y'.--Md iet (talk) 03:00, 7 June 2016 (UTC)
Infobox language
Should the infobox for official language just say Hindi with an explanatory note attached? Hindi is the official language of the Union while English is an additional language.-Akhila3151996 (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
- The current content seems more accurate. English continues to be used as an official language of India notwithstanding the fact that it is supposed to be phased out. If we hide that in a note, we're doing a disservice to our readers. --regentspark (comment) 01:21, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's difficult to take the OP seriously when every few months they open the same discussion. —SpacemanSpiff 02:40, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- I just really feel that it should say this since Hindi is the technical official language. Last time I had this discussion I had no consensus.-Akhila3151996 (talk) 17:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- I guess the larger point is that, as long as it remains an official language, English will be listed as one in the infobox. --regentspark (comment) 20:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- Even now though, English remains as a provisional sub-official language. Hindi was the language chosen to be the official language.I don't know but I just feel that this might be accurate. Of course we can still say that English is an auxilary official language.-Akhila3151996 (talk) 16:32, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I guess the larger point is that, as long as it remains an official language, English will be listed as one in the infobox. --regentspark (comment) 20:56, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- I just really feel that it should say this since Hindi is the technical official language. Last time I had this discussion I had no consensus.-Akhila3151996 (talk) 17:14, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's difficult to take the OP seriously when every few months they open the same discussion. —SpacemanSpiff 02:40, 12 May 2016 (UTC)
Terrorism
Terrorism needs to be mentioned in the main description as a problem India faces. There are countless sources that can be used for this. 1) http://www.ibtimes.com/major-terrorist-attacks-india-over-last-20-years-timeline-1752731 2)http://indianexpress.com/article/india/india-news-india/india-6th-most-affected-by-terrorism-in-2014-isis-boko-haram-behind-more-than-half-attacks-report/ 3)https://www.gov.uk/foreign-travel-advice/india/terrorism -Akhila3151996 (talk) 16:43, 13 May 2016 (UTC)
- I don't have much opposition to this unless it validly sourced. Others may have though, See here. Would suggest waiting a few days till we have no objection before adding it. I do oppose the way it's currently put.
- No doubt you can get n number of new sources saying so, what we need here is a scholarly reference which gives an overview of India saying that terrorism is indeed a major problem; see WP:NEWSORG second bullet point. Also, we don't add new content to the lead section unless it's already mentioned below. A lead only summarises the article body. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 05:06, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- The 3rd source from the UK government can be added to Terrorism in India. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:20, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
Festivals in Society section
I wonder how the festivals para in the Society section has no references. Also, can we decide on what basis should be include each individual festival? Couldn't find any archive of this being properly discussed. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 16:08, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yes, the recent addition was a bit much. I think only the festivals that get national holidays should be mentioned by name. The others can be stated as et cetra. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:17, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- I restored the FAR text which was partially cited. --regentspark (comment) 22:09, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
- As Kautilya3 said, I've got this list of festivals which are national holidays in the country from Public holidays in India. Perhaps these too can be mentioned. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- Great. To clarify my point, what are called "compulsory holidays" should be mentioned by name, and the "optional holidays" only if necessary. The first list already illustrates the religious diversity of India. The full list will of course be available in the Public holidays page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- If we have to use that as a criteria, then some may have to go while a few new ones will be added: Thai Pongal, Holi, Vaisakhi and Durga Puja will be removed and the new format will be:
- Great. To clarify my point, what are called "compulsory holidays" should be mentioned by name, and the "optional holidays" only if necessary. The first list already illustrates the religious diversity of India. The full list will of course be available in the Public holidays page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:22, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- As Kautilya3 said, I've got this list of festivals which are national holidays in the country from Public holidays in India. Perhaps these too can be mentioned. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:17, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
- I restored the FAR text which was partially cited. --regentspark (comment) 22:09, 14 May 2016 (UTC)
"...The best known which are national holidays include Bakr-Id, Buddha Purnima, Christmas, Diwali, Dussehra, Eid ul-Fitr, Ganesh Chaturthi, Good Friday, Guru Nanak Jayanti and Muharram". Ugog Nizdast (talk) 05:24, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- Pity. The list is badly under-weighted on Hindu festivals. (Actually even Ganesh Chaturthi isn't in the compulsory holidays list.) How about if we add Holi and Makara Sankranti, and add "and a large number of other Hindu festivals"? My rationale for picking these two is that they are not about specific deities. If we include festivals of specific deities, we wouldn't know where to stop. - Kautilya3 (talk) 11:11, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
- Hmm, I think the present version is the best. Adding "a large number of other" is not a good idea: it's vague and encourage more additions, where do we draw the line? This national holiday source is underrepresented. I guess the statusquo is the best until some better source is presented. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:19, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
References
- Holidays to be observed in central government offices during 2015 Note a new version of this document is released each year, and old versions may not be available beyond one or two years previous.
This article incorporates text from this source, which is in the public domain.
Alexander
I propose the addition of "....favoured by Alexander's death and the end of his Indian campaign." to the statement "Politically, by the 3rd century BCE, the kingdom of Magadha had annexed or reduced other states to emerge as the Mauryan Empire...". Ugog Nizdast (talk) 06:49, 22 May 2016 (UTC)
- Ugog, this is unclear and I don't understand what you mean by 'favored by'? Could you revert and discuss a rewrite that makes the meaning of the sentence clearer? Thanks. --regentspark (comment) 13:14, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's not clear? I mean to say one of the reasons of the Mauryan rise was Alexander's death and end of his Indian campaign. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- That seems to me to be a far-fetched causality. What does the source say? Google Books isn't showing me the page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure of this either. Perhaps Alexander's conquests in north-west India left a power vacuum that the Maurya's were able to fill but that's just one factor in the rise of the Maurya Empire. We'd need to see a solid source that explicitly indicates that the death of Alexander was an important factor. (Note also that Alexander's India campaign ended first and he died later, not the other way round.) --regentspark (comment) 15:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Here's the quote: "Political developments in the region west of India aided the rise of the Maurya power. On 11 June 323 BC Alexander died....(omitted two statements, see below)...This in turn weakened Greek authority in the region around the Indus and Punjab, which in turn facilitated Chandragupta's rise." What was omitted to prevent copyvio I'll summarise: how his empire's extent was and the ensuing civil war. Any possibility of rewording it for inclusion?
- I don't have with me any solid sources so I weakly support this. I was struck by his absence in the section Ancient India. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 16:22, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Let's see what @Fowler&fowler: has to say. We probably need a source evaluation as well. The basic tenet does make sense since Alexander's conquests did weaken the kingdoms in North-West India and leave them ripe for picking; but perhaps the Maurya's were already strong enough. But, of course, what matters is what the source says, how reliable the source is, and how much of a factor that was in the Maurya's rise. --regentspark (comment) 16:38, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Ok, I think we can add "... Mauryan Empire, whose initiation in Punjab was facilitated by Alexander's death and the weakening of Greek power." I think it is important to mention Punjab because, without it, it looks like coming out of the blue. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:32, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Let's see what @Fowler&fowler: has to say. We probably need a source evaluation as well. The basic tenet does make sense since Alexander's conquests did weaken the kingdoms in North-West India and leave them ripe for picking; but perhaps the Maurya's were already strong enough. But, of course, what matters is what the source says, how reliable the source is, and how much of a factor that was in the Maurya's rise. --regentspark (comment) 16:38, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- I'm not sure of this either. Perhaps Alexander's conquests in north-west India left a power vacuum that the Maurya's were able to fill but that's just one factor in the rise of the Maurya Empire. We'd need to see a solid source that explicitly indicates that the death of Alexander was an important factor. (Note also that Alexander's India campaign ended first and he died later, not the other way round.) --regentspark (comment) 15:48, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- That seems to me to be a far-fetched causality. What does the source say? Google Books isn't showing me the page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:40, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- It's not clear? I mean to say one of the reasons of the Mauryan rise was Alexander's death and end of his Indian campaign. Ugog Nizdast (talk) 14:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Awkward phrasing. And I'm still not sure whether the "facilitation" was important enough to rate a special mention in this summary article. --regentspark (comment) 19:01, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
Thanks for pinging me RP. I'm traveling, someplace antipodal to WP head office, and don't have my sources. My sense is that historians today don't assign that much weight to Alexander's invasion in the subsequent political history of India. It is more important in the political histories of some Central Asian countries, and Iran, and Afghanistan, and through the subsequently established Indo-Greeks states therein, to the cultural history of India (viz. Gandhara Art, Megasthenes, etc). To be sure, his invasion was one of the factors in the collapse of the Mahajanapadas (MJs), the collection of 16 states run by ruling clans, that constituted much of north India at the time. But the clan politics of the MJs had already become eroded by two other more significant factors: the increasing trade between these MJs ("It is always the economy, stupid!" was the conclusion drawn by a bright young observer, Chankya Clinton, who would later become an adviser to royalty), and the powerful new religious ideologies of Jainism and Buddhism, which were finding support among the commercial classes. In fact, the Nanda ruler of Magadha had already united the MJs east of the Beas river before Alexander's invasion.
There are those (conventionally Indian historians) who think that Alexander decided against crossing the Beas because he was afraid of the Nandas' spanking new elephant brigade, which like today's NATO standard had between 3,000 and 6,000 war elephants, and was far and away stronger than anything he had encountered before. Others, more conventionally (in the western view), think his army rebelled, or mutinied, because they were homesick. (I myself think, it may have been Col (Real) Indian Summer, which (I should really say "who") was blasting the Greeks with 120 degree winds straight from his loo, and the Alexander did not want a Battle for Stalingrad to be fought on the banks of the Beas, without receiving a bigger group discount on the Rooh Afza being sold by the itinerant Kabuliwallahs.) In any case, within the year, both Alexander and Nanda were dead. The latter's sons proved too quarrelsome to stop the new power, Chandragupta Maurya, whose empire also sounded the death knell of the MJs. And Chanakya Clinton began work in his magnum opus (what else) on Economics. I myself would not add anything new for now. I'll take a look at the history section when I get back home in three weeks time. It probably needs another look. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:57, 25 May 2016 (UTC)
- Makes sense F&f. We should, imo, anyway avoid getting too deep into causes in a summary article, unless the causality is clear. --regentspark (comment) 15:54, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
References
- Roy, Kaushik (2015-06-03). Warfare in Pre-British India – 1500BCE to 1740CE. Routledge. p. 63. ISBN 9781317586913.
Marathas as the single most important power
This statement "The "single most important power" that emerged in the early modern period was the Maratha confederacy." is going to be removed because:
- Already previously mentioned that the Marathas emerged along with the Rajputs and Sikhs.
- Sourced to a tertiary reference Brittannica.
- Directly quoted without attribution as to who said it.
- At the present state, it looks WP:UNDUE.
- Yup. Agree. --regentspark (comment) 13:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yup. Also agree. It was added later by a drive-by. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 08:42, 26 May 2016 (UTC)
- Yup. Agree. --regentspark (comment) 13:15, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
I object to the statement "Marathas emerged along with the Rajputs and SikhsIn the 1700s". it was the Marathas who were the most powerful indigenous group in the region. The Rajputs used to pay tribute to the Marathas. The sikhs emerged as an independent power under Ranjit singh when the Maratha influence was on the wane. I am just citing one book but I am sure there are tons of references that would show Maratha influence over the Rajputs, the Sikhs and other rulers in the subcontinent. I am sure others will weigh in on the subject. Thanks. Jonathansammy (talk) 14:27, 24 May 2016 (UTC)
References
- "Regional states, c. 1700–1850". Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc.
- Chaurasia, R.S. (2004). History of the Marathas. New Delhi: Atlantic Publishers & Distributors. p. 8. ISBN 81-269-0394-5. Retrieved 24 May 2016.
- Chaurasia, R.S. (2004). History of the Marathas. New Delhi: Atlantic Publishers & Distributors. p. 13,xi. ISBN 81-269-0394-5.
Update of info needed
Under the "Foreign relations and military" the section for defense has the following line "As of 2012, India is the world's largest arms importer". Also I think the number of ports India has control over and the addition of Maitri Antarctic mission should be added under a separate heading. The recent help India provided in evacuation of citizens from Yemen and help provided to people of NEPAL during the earth quake should be added in foreign relations. Also I think the fact that the largest observatory is coming up in India and that India is fast becoming a space hub should be mentioned in the article. ISRO and its achievements like the MARS mission etc should also be part of this article or atleast should have subsequent links for the same. India's relation with Afghanistan and the fact that India recently gifted it a new parliament building should also be acknowledged. This needs to be edited as it is no longer so. Please make changes to this section. Also I believe the entire page of "India" has not been updated with the latest info. I have been reading the same content for last two years. India has gone through a lot of changes.
The Jaipur Literary Festival is one of the biggest literary festivals in the world. I believe this should also be added under the section, "Literature". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Siddharthamm (talk • contribs) 07:02, 27 May 2016 (UTC)
Images and section
Hi,
The article is well written and offcourse it is a featured one. But I think it lags behind in case of some more good images. So, I request someone( especially regentspark) to add more images. Apart from that, a mini article of science and technology section makes it more delightful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 103.248.117.10 (talk) 00:20, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
Subsection on human rights
Hello,
I would like to add a subsection on human rights to the section on politics. Kind regards, Sarcelles (talk) 07:39, 31 May 2016 (UTC)
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