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Please!

Please do not edit archived pages. If you want to react to a statement made in an archived discussion, please make a new header on THIS page. Baristarim 20:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Archives:

• Archive 1 - Archived on November 22, 2006

Comment

Can someone stop Brandmeister or whatever from messing the Duduk article and deleting its Armenian origins facts? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.149.119.198 (talk) 02:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

Origin

The duduk is ARMENIAN. How I know this is also mentioned in the article. "The duduk is one of the oldest double reed instruments in the world and dates back over 3,000 years. Variants of the duduk can be found in Armenia and the Caucasus. The roots of Armenian duduk music go back to the times of the Armenian king Tigran the Great (95–55 BC)". Well, during the rule of King Tigran the Great, Turkey, or the Seljuk turks, and Azerbaijan weren't a nation or a people at the time. So they couldn't have possible have created the duduk. So the duduk is Armenian as it is mentioned in many ancient manuscripts. it is also mentioned in WorldMusicalInstruments.com that "the duduk is an Armenian wind instrument with sound qualities similar to the clarinet. The duduk is one of the oldest double reed instruments in the world. It can produce a wide range of melodies, including rhythmic dance tunes. The duduk has truly become a part of everyday life in Armenia. Both beginner and professional duduks are offered. Other Armenian instruments offered by WorldMusicalInstruments include Bloul and Shvi, listed in their own categories under Wind Instruments." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Armoboy323 (talk • contribs) 03:34, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The origins

The reference to UNESCO says nothing about origins of the instrument. It calls it an Armenian oboe and says that Armenian version of the instrument is declared a Masterpiece of the Intangible Heritage of Humanity. It also says:

The duduk or tsiranapokh, which is also called the apricot tree pipe, belongs to the organological category of areophones, which also includes the balaban played in Azerbaijan and Iran, the duduki common in Georgia and the ney in Turkey.

In any case, this is not a scientific source. I think there should be some sort of a scientific research on this issue. I quoted Great Soviet Encyclopedia, below are some more links to Russian sources, who are well familiar with region:

Pre-Soviet Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, published in 1890:

Дудуки

— кавказская дудка, имеющая довольно нежный звук. Д. по преимуществу инструмент комнатный и входит в состав оркестра, сопровождающего пляску.

A modern Russian dictionary:

ДУДУК

(армянский) дудуки (грузинский), баламан (азербайджанский), балабан (дагестанский), духовой язычковый музыкальный инструмент

They say nothing about its Armenian origins. I would like to see a scholarly source stating that it was invented by Armenians, if such source is available. From what I see the instrument is popular with many different people on a vast territory and has a Turkish name, but there’s no proof of its actual origins. Grandmaster 08:54, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

"The roots of the duduk in Armenia date back to the times of the Armenian king Tigran the Great (95-55BC.). One ancestor of duduk is an ancient flute (aulos) made from reed. This type of reed duduk may be seen in Armenian manuscripts from Middle Ages."

That is enough proof there is not proof what so ever that it is Turkish or any other countries where it actually originated.

Düdük is a loan from "Dudak" (means lips) in Turkish or Turkic. So why dont you start searching its origins from its ORIGIN?--94.54.228.174 (talk) 12:07, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

That tells us about the word, but not necessarily the instrument. The website that you cited calls the instrument "Armenian duduk." -- Gyrofrog (talk) 14:27, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

ok, why dont you find relieble sources instead of posting un-neutral sources? is it because of the masters have armenian origins? ok then im the best at midi-keyboard, and did i invent it?--94.54.228.174 (talk) 20:32, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

The duduk

The duduk is entirely a armenian instrument it dates back thousands of years ago and inscriptions show Armenians were, its oppressed to many cultures around the Caucasian region and the middle east but however it originated from Armenians. Nareklm 14:38, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

Please see the template on top, only thing that was talked about in this page was this since its creation.. :)) So please let's avoid making simple declarations of opinion, this talk page is not about what our convictions are, doesn't matter if someone believes Duduk is Chinese, Swedish, Armenian, Turkish etc. :) Baristarim 23:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't talking to you or for the template above those make no sense what so ever denying the fact Armenians were the first to use or invent this tool whether or not you actually are i think stating it, is important the duduk is an ancient instrument its even in armenian manuscripts when Tigran the great was at throne it is a part of armenian history and thou it shall stay that way. Nareklm 23:41, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

lol :)) I wasn't saying where it originated from.. I am not at all an expert, I have neither studied its history or, frankly, care enough about it to do so. I was only trying to say that this page is about improvements that could be made to this article, and such changes must follow concensus and must be made built upon sources. Simple declarations of opinion or conviction doesn't suffice, that's all.. Cheers! Baristarim 01:06, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem than i think stating its origins are important whether its in Caucasia or Armenia.

Attempted information monopoly by commercial enterprise: duduk.com

Be weary that the site, and the many many related sites, duduk.com. It is not an official voice of the Armenian duduk. It is a commercial enterprise. You will find that in nearly every corner of the Internet, including this Wiki, and others, that they have planted links to bolster their profits. Their integrety in doing so is questionable. Intellectual freedom is questioned when a for-profit agency claims to be the "official" voice of a cultural treasure!

Their other mirror sites are: duduk.com dudukonline.com armenians.com mksduduks.com

There are more as well, and possibly more coming. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Madoherty (talk • contribs) 17:30, 17 January 2007 (UTC).

About competence of various encyclopedias about the origin

I suppose it is better to rely on specialized works in music.

The encyclopedias and glossaries, were listed here, say nothing about the instrument's origin. They only notice the areas where it is spread. As you may see, they often write nothing about origin of most musical instruments.

Anyway, we should not resignedly rely on their information regarding to musical instruments. Look, they always include several sentences. To find out more we should look for scientific works of scientists, specialized in music, or at least musical encyclopedias.

As an example I would like to cite material of the Great Soviet Encyclopedia. Let us check "Suona" (唢呐). They write: "Сона, китайский духовой музыкальный инструмент; один из предшественников гобоя. Аналогичен кавказской зурне". "Suona, Chinese woodwind musical instrument, one of the predecessors of oboe. It is similar to Caucasian zurna".

What should we think after reading this? That zurna is a Chinese aerophone? It is a fact, that during the Tang period, most of instrumets played in Chinese folk music, were adopted from different nations and regions (generally, through the 1) Great Silk Way; 2) ethnic groups that were living to north-west from that time China; or from 3) Arabic seafarers). And we know that suona is one of such instruments. In spite of this, nothing could hinder authors of the Encyclopedia from showing the information mentioned above.

Decide yourself what to think about the origin. I just would like to point at some evident lacks in coverage of musical instruments.

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 09:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Reed

What species of plant is the reed made from? Badagnani (talk) 19:02, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Easy to use?

This is not a beginner's instrument. Most people to take it for the first time can't even produce a single note! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.65.96.35 (talk) 01:45, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

reference to "Gladiator"

I think the reference to the film in the introductory paragraph was inappropriate. I would argue that the reference should be stricken as it doesn't have much to do with instrument itself. Certainly a link from the film's page(s) to this one would be appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Khromegnome (talk • contribs) 20:35, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Armenian origin

I checked the sources presented for the Armenian origin of the instrument. None of them says anything about the origins. The link to UNESCO is dead. I suppose it was supposed to be this: However the article says nothing about the origins of the instrument, and does not represent the opinion of UNESCO. It says: The Duduk and its Music ©Samvel Amirkhanyan. So it is the opinion of this person, apparently provided by the Armenian ministry of culture to describe the instrument. The second source is this, , it is in Armenians, so I'm unable to read it. I don't think it is possible to trace the origin of any instrument to any particular nation, especially when the instrument is played in most countries of the region. The word duduk itself is of Turkish origin, according to GSE and other Russian sources. And not just Russian. So the intro must be worded more neutrally. Grandmaster 12:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

I think Samvel Amirkhanyan is the person, mentioned here as the "Head of Staff of Ministry of Nature Protection of Armenia". He is a governmental official in Armenia. Grandmaster 13:05, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Link to UNESCO isn't dead http://www.unesco.ru/rus/articles/2004/Valya20082007123347.phpApserus (talk) 13:26, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

That's a different link. The one that was in the article before was dead. And this new link also does not say that duduk has Armenian origins. Grandmaster 05:19, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

Here is the UNESCO link Don Kikos (talk) 11:45, 30 May 2010 (UTC)

The claim that the instrument is of Armenian origin is not supported by the sources provided. Plus, it is impossible to claim that duduk was invented by Armenians. No one knows who was the person who invented it, and it exists among all the nations in the region. It is quite obvious that the instrument existed from immemorial times, as long as humankind existed, same as other simple instruments like drums. Encyclopedia of Islam says that duduk is a Turkish instrument, and that source is written by top international experts, professional historians. In any case, in my opinion, it is better to avoid attribution of the instrument to any particular nation, as the sources conflict on this. Grandmaster 05:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

At first armenians was playing on duduk before turks-mongols came to Asia Minor,so it isnt turkish instrument.I think that encyclopedia of islam isn't neutral,becouse turks are muslims. Here is http://www.unesco.org/culture/ich/index.php?RL=03 link to English version of UNESCO. The duduk, the Armenian oboe, is a double-reed wind instrumentApserus (talk) 12:24, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Encyclopedia of Islam is not a Muslim source. Read the article about it. It is an encyclopedia about the Islamic world, not a Muslim or an Islamic encyclopedia. It is written by the best Western experts. UNESCO site is not a source on history, and the article there is written by Samvel Amirkhanyan, an official in the ministry of ecology in Armenia. It is not a reliable source. Plus, it does not say that duduk is of Armenian origin. It says that duduk is Armenian instrument, but it is as much a Turkish, Azerbaijani, Georgian, etc. instrument. The sources that say duduk is the instrument of a certain nation do not claim that it was invented by them. So please stop removing sourced info. Such actions are not tolerated here, it is an arbitration covered topic. Grandmaster 05:03, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, Gasparian is not a reliable source on the etymology of the word duduk. He is a musician, not a philologist. The word dudka in Slavic langauges also derives from Turkic duduk:

The word "Dudelsack", for bagpipe, is traced to the Turkish word düdük, for pipe, from where it supposedly reached us via the Balcans and Slavic languages.

Christine Wessely. Die Türken und was von ihnen blieb. Verband der Wissenschaftlichen Gesellschaften Österreichs, 1978.

As one can see, the word dudel came to Slavic langauges from the Turkic düdük, and from there reached the German language. Grandmaster 05:24, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

You have no clue of what you are talking about, the standardized duduk (the Armenian oboe) is a double-reed aero-phone (woodwind) folk instrument with a cylindrical bore made of aged apricot tree wood. That's quite different than the non-standardized Bulgarian, Balkan Duduks, balaban which are closer to those used in the Ottoman (the Turkish version, the Ney), or the Georgian duduki and neither produce the sound of the Duduk. They're not the same... the modern Duduk is based in the 13th century version, it's a specific instrument which in an earlier form was found in Tigran's court as the Armenian Duduk is an early prototype of oboe (Musical instruments: craftsmanship and traditions from prehistory to the present, Luci Rault, Harry N. Abrams, 2000, p. 210). It is quite possible 'duduk' could be a Turkish word, as in the Armenian manuscripts it was not called duduk, but when the instrument existed there was no Turks in the region, in fact the Turkic wind instruments brought from the steps of Mongolia were different in size and shape and were certainly not double-reed. UNESCO recognizes the Armenian oboe as 'duduk' as well as the very large majority of the sources. Specific musical encyclopedias are unanimous, for example this one. Besides, had your gesture been in good fate, you would have followed the alphabetical order, you didn't even do that. Please stop bringing conflicts from Russian Misplaced Pages over here. In her book, "Folk musical instruments of Turkey", Laurence Ernest Rowland Picken's definitely classifies it as Armenian... all those are specialized books about musical instruments. - Fedayee (talk) 16:17, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Duduk cannot be Armenian or anyone else's. Many nations are using the instrument. It is the same as saying that violin is German or Italian or Swedish. No source says that the instrument is of Armenian origin. There are sources calling it Armenian, Turkish, Bulgarian, etc, but it just means that all those nations use this instrument. The cyclopedia you quote mentions Armenian duduk and Georgian duduki, which is the same instrument. Encyclopedia of Islam mentions Turkish duduk, which is also the same. And in Iranica you can read about balaban, also called duduk. Obviously, it is the same instrument used by various people. Grandmaster 16:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I restored the source and information as you cant just delete sources like that. Neftchi (talk) 15:48, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Some sort of common-sense is needed here. The duduk is TODAY seen pre-eminently as an Armenian instrument. Most of its players are Armenian, most recordings of it are made by (and probably purchased by) Armenians, it is seen as a national instrument in Armenia, and, worldwide, the music produced by it is widely recognised and called "Armenian". Meowy 20:31, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Many nations consider this instrument to be theirs. Just an example:

Stoian Petrov offers description and recordings of Bulgarian popular instruments, the strings gadulka (bowed) and bulgaria or tambura (plucked); the winds gaida (bagpipe), kaval (shepherd's pipe), and the various reed pipes: svirka, dvoianka, duduk, etc.

Wilton Mason. Reviewed work(s): Journal of the International Folk Music Council, Volume XII by Maud Karpeles. Ethnomusicology, Vol. 5, No. 2 (May, 1961), pp. 150-151

Should we write now that duduk is a Bulgarian instrument? Claiming a popular instrument to a certain nation is nothing but a nationalistic approach. It is impossible to ascertain the origins of the instrument, unless one has a time machine to travel back in time to the very moment when duduk was created to check the ethnicity of its creator. Common sense says that duduk is an international instrument, used by many people in the Middle East, Caucasus and East Europe. Claiming it to only one nation leads us nowhere. One can describe in the article the importance of duduk to the Armenian culture or the prominence of Armenian players, but saying that duduk is of Armenian origin, or that it is only an Armenian instrument is not reasonable. Grandmaster 20:49, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Also saying that most of duduk players are Armenian is not accurate. There are as many players in Azerbaijan and Georgia. They are simply not known outside of their countries, because Azeris and Georgians don't have big Diasporas outside of their countries. Grandmaster 20:51, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Also, I must note the massive use of socks and SPAs to edit war in this article in favor of a certain ethnic POV. If this does not stop, I will have to ask for the admin intervention. Grandmaster 20:58, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Are you denying that the duduk is today seen pre-eminently as an Armenian instrument. Are you denying that most recordings of it are made by (and probably purchased by) Armenians, that it is seen as a national instrument in Armenia, and that, worldwide, the music produced by it is widely recognised and called "Armenian"? Meowy 21:19, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

When all else fails, they blame the Armenian diaspora. The duduk became popular in the West because of Djivan Gasparyan's collaboration with Hans Zimmer on the Gladiator soundtrack. And last I checked, Gasparyan is not from the diaspora. Gasparyan advocates usage of the term dziranapogh, by the way. TA-ME (talk) 21:22, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

I'm not surprised, because the word duduk is Turkish. However it is the internationally accepted name for the instrument. The fact that Gasparian popularized duduk in the West does not make the instrument Armenian. Grandmaster 08:57, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Meowy, even if it is seen as a pre-eminently as an Armenian instrument (which is not so), it does not mean that duduk is of Armenian origin or that it is Armenian. In fact, in many countries it is seen as their national instrument. I quoted the source about Bulgaria, here's another one:

Дудук (дудуки), грузинский духовой деревян. инструмент в роде нашей свирели. Звук его мягок и слаб. См. "Грузин. народн. песня" М. Ипполитова-Иванова.

Says that it is a Georgian instrument.

Pre-Soviet Brockhaus and Efron Encyclopedic Dictionary, published in 1890s:

Дудуки — кавказская дудка, имеющая довольно нежный звук. Д. по преимуществу инструмент комнатный и входит в состав оркестра, сопровождающего пляску.

Says that it is an instrument from the Caucasus. Great Soviet Encyclopedia:

Дудук, дудуки (от тур. düdük), духовой музыкальный инструмент: небольшая (около 300 мм) трубка с 9 игровыми отверстиями и двойной тростью. Обычно играют на двух Д. — один исполнитель ведёт мелодию, а другой извлекает непрерывный звук (органный пункт). Распространён у народов Кавказа.

Modern Russian dictionary:

ДУДУ́К, -а, м. Духовой деревянный музыкальный инструмент в виде цилиндрической трубки с отверстиями, распространенный у народов Кавказа.

Says that the instrument is popular with the people of Caucasus. So even if Gasparian is the most famous duduk player, it does not mean that the instrument is Armenian, like the article claims. It is also Georgian, Azerbaijani, Bulgarian, Turkish, etc. We must adhere to WP:NPOV, and present the facts in a neutral fashion. Grandmaster 08:53, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

But I did not state that the duduk is Armenian because Gasparyan plays it. I mentioned how it came to be popular in the West. You were asserting that Gasparyan's popularity is somehow the fault of Armenian diaspora communities.

I don't care if the duduk is popular with the peoples of the Caucasus or the Balkans (so is Nasreddin), that doesn't determine its origins or place in a country's national identity. The violin article mentions that the instrument has "ancient origins" while highlighting its importance in Italian culture. Perhaps something similar can be done here. You contradict yourself when you say that its origins cannot be traced to any one nation yet add that it is "Turkish in origin" in the introduction. Anyway, we need better sources than those Hetq/UNESCO articles and that Encyclopaedia of Islam passage (all one-minute Google dig-ups). TA-ME (talk) 10:59, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

We have no sources to support the Armenian origin either, yet we have that statement in the intro. We only have sources that call duduk Armenian, Turkish, Bulgarian, Georgian, etc instrument. I suggest we remove any origin claims as OR. We must state that it is an instrument popular in many cultures. I don't mind info about the importance of duduk for the Armenian culture, as long as it is sourced. --Grandmaster 16:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree, the Hetq and UNESCO articles are not sufficient. But I agree with Meowy about the instrument being considered pre-eminently Armenian despite its obscure origins. If the "of Armenian origins" statement was unsourced you could have tagged or removed it, not added "of Turkish origin" using a source that is focused on the Islamic world. A proper discussion should have been held on the talk page before such an addition was made. Now there is another edit war. TA-ME (talk) 22:51, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

The edit war is waged by a sock account. Once the admins investigate the issue, the problem will be solved. If you have a reliable source that the instrument is viewed as pre-eminently Armenian, we can include it. I suggest the following wording for the intro:

The duduk is a traditional woodwind instrument, popular with the people of Caucasus, Middle East and Eastern Europe.

And then we can discuss in the main body the specifics of duduk in each country or region. You can describe in detail the importance of duduk for the Armenian culture by creating a section dedicated to Duduk in Armenia. I think this could be a workable solution. Grandmaster 08:54, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

I think the regional identification should be limited to the Caucasus and the Middle East, and exclude Eastern Europe. Bulgarian/Balkan music may sometime employ the word duduk to refer to a whistle but this instrument has no organological similarities to the Caucasus/Middle East one discussed in this article, just the name is identical perhaps from the slavic "duda" (meaning pipe). It could be solved with a disambiguation page redirecting to Kaval, an article where the Balkan duduk is already included (because of its organological characteristics), which to me means the "Balkan Duduk" part can be removed from this article. The Armenian duduk does indeed deserve its own subsection, because the duduk that has become famous in a global context today is the instrument which underwent a specific organological development during the 1930s in Armenia as it was redesigned by Armenian musicologist Vardan Buni to suit the needs of a Soviet solo concert instrument (it is also called a "bunifon" sometimes). This info comes from the book "The duduk and national identity in Armenia" by musicologist Andy Nercessian. So it's not the duduk which is Armenian per se, rather there is a specific Armenian duduk . Lanterfantski (talk) 14:34, 17 November 2009 (UTC).

Lanterfantski that's the whole issue, the major claim that it is not mostly identified as Armenian instrument came from the belief that the Balkan Duduk is the same instrument when they are not. Grandmaster whole problem here with Duduk being refered as mostly an Armenian instrument is that the same instrument is claimed as being Azerbaijani, but who need to put this in this article when a FORK article for duduk exist by the name of Balaban (instrument) where it is claimed as an Azerbaijani instrument. But of course Grandmaster has no problem with this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papabu (talk • contribs) 02:32, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

To Grandmaster

To Grandmaster

Live up to your own standard and redirect Balaban (instrument) to this article or else your comments will be considered as highly hypocritic, as the article is pretending the same Duduk to be basically Azeri.

Duduk in Turkish is used for any pipe instrument, in fact, in Turkey any child instrument which makes noise by mouth is quite often called duduk. The original Bulgarian duduk, (the original Balkan duduk) looks like this. , , this is not the instrument we intend in the English world when we say Duduk.

A flute is more than just a pipe used by the Egyptians, it was sofisticated and made of an instrument by the Phyrigians and one of the arguments used by the Greeks to support that Armenians were at the beginning Phrygian colonies was that both people were mastering the art of building and playing flutes. It was in inscriptions describing the Armenians, as the Armenians were known to be the players of moorning flutes directed to the dieties. The Zurna for example was derived from the Phrygian reed-trumpet, which at the time was called eghegnaphot by the Armenians. . Or see last part of second paragraph on the relation here. Or third paragraph here.

The modern musical mode was derived from the Phrygian mode and Armenians were the first to adopt them, that is why the Armenian anotations were used to decipher old music because they have not changed since the 4th century , when the Phrygian modes were perfectionalised. Those partitions already included specific musics for the duduk long before anyone else. They were in D, just like the Phrygians. (For example, in Armenia and the Bulgarian Rhodopes, both ancient Phrygian colonies, music is still arranged in the key of D, note the Bulgarian original duduk is not the Duduk we intend)

The claim that everyone had flute instruments won't make it. The Flute was at times even banished in ancient Greece and not very often used, but at the time the Armenians or some Phrygian colonies in the Balkan were using them, but only the Armenians were described continuing the art of building flutes and playing for funerals and mourning brought from the Phrygians.

Where were the Turks then? Is it that much hard to know that Azeri's play an Armenian instrument, it's not the end of the world you know. Besides, the source you use does not mean anything, because duduk alone in Turkish does not describe a specfic flute?

I was searching through the Encyclopedia of Islam online edition and the series has NO entry for the duduk. The only mention of that word is under the entry of "Mizmar", which is also a type of pipe instrument, but the article makes no specific mention of Turkish origins. Here is the original passage:

The recorder, or flûte à bec, also found favour in the East. This is the Arabic nāy labak (mouth nāy), the¶ Persian sūt, the Turkish dūduk, and the Hindustānī alg̲h̲ūza. As early as the Ik̲h̲wān al- Ṣafāʾ and the Mafātīḥ al-ʿulūm (4th/10th century) we read of the ṣaffāra, which was doubtless a flûte à bec (see Farmer, Studies, 83). Villoteau (i, 951) says that it was an instrument of this type in his day in Egypt. The dūduk or dūdūk is mentioned by Ewliyā Čelebī in nine different species (i, 642), and is also mentioned by Ḥād̲j̲d̲j̲ī Ḵh̲alīfa (i, 400). The s̲h̲āhīn would appear to have been a small three-holed recorder such as was common with pipe and tabor players in mediaeval Western Europe. It was played with the fingers of one hand, the other hand being used for beating the ṭabl or drum, hence the phrase in G̲h̲azālī: “The s̲h̲āhīn of the drummer ( ṭabbāl ).”

That's it. There's nothing else saying that it explicitly came from Turkey (as in by Turks). It's used in the same context as, say, the Balkan or Georgian duduk. So, from where you took that one wonder.

It's too much to expect from the typical nationalistic Armenian to support the Duduk to be Armenian, because they will have to document their Phrygian heritage in the process, a heritage many reject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Papabu (talk • contribs) 02:01, 28 January 2010 (UTC)

Just to note that Papabu is the sock of the banned user. As for duduk, it exists in many cultures, and claim it for only one particular culture is absurd. Grandmaster 08:33, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

Interesting info, will add some along with the info from Balaban article and Mey I migrate here. This article has a lot of potential. Ionidasz (talk) 14:56, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

"The Barnstar of Peace" Evrythn1outof8infity (talk) 23:38, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages lacks information on armenian-inspired movie and tv soundtracks

Something should be done in this field. I have created a page on this subject, called List of Armenian-Inspired Soundtracks. It was asked for deletion. According to some administrators, completely ignorant of anything related to armenian music, there would be no proof that these soundtracks, using the armenian duduk instrument (in the heritage list of UNESCO), are influenced by armenian music. They disagree that duduk is part of armenian music. It's the same as the vandalism on the Duduk page denying the armenian origin of the Duduk instrument and ignoring the works of international organization UNESCO. PauperHell (talk) 20:14, 10 February 2010 (UTC)

Bulgarian, Serbian etc. Duduk

What should be done, it's not the same instrument, a disambiguation on the main duduk, with the two different instruments to choose from? Ionidasz (talk) 15:29, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Who says it is not the same instrument? Grandmaster 20:42, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

They are not, see here. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ionidasz (talk • contribs) 18:23, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

We need a written source. Grandmaster 18:25, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

No, that's not true, we need a source claiming they are the same, not that they are not. They have rear 6 holes instead of 7. Duduk is a generic word. Ionidasz (talk) 18:28, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

This article is about an instrument called duduk. The instrument called duduk exists in various countries of Middle East, Caucasus and Balkans. If you believe that it is not the same instrument, please cite your sources. Grandmaster 07:05, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't see what you are debating about Grandmaster, did you read the article in full? You never seem to have questioned this section. There are two main family called Duduks, one is the Bulagrian Duduk (those used in the Balkans), the other the Armenian duduk. Sampling softwares separate both, see here, view also here. This was why I asking if the page should be disambiguated. Ionidasz (talk) 14:54, 25 May 2010 (UTC)

Duduk sounds like sanai

I heard duduk played here: Voyager's Golden Record - Ugam - Azerbaijan bagpipes, actually heard it on UTube, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVRdEvdovgk&feature=related, and a comment there informed that it is duduk. Now it sounds to my lay ears like sanai, a little lower pitch. Will some body confirm or contradict. Here is a sanai renediction. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hveeMDC6Dro&feature=related

Yogesh Khandke (talk) 04:40, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

I added a clear Unesco reference which states that "The music of the duduk, an Armenian wind instrument, was proclaimed a Masterpiece of the Oral and Intangible Heritage of Humanity in 2005. Armenia also works with UNESCO and various donors to examine the manner in which culture can be used to stimulate economic and social development." This is enough to justify that it is an Armenian insturment. The sentence clearly states that THE DUDUK an Armenian wind insturment not like the Armenian Duduk ....Ali55te (talk) 18:56, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

The lead says that duduk is a traditional Armenian woodwind instrument but it is also a traditional instrument of other nations too. The lead now is not neutral. --Quantum666 (talk) 19:45, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

No source. Prove it. --Aram-van (talk) 13:11, 21 February 2011 (UTC)ARAMVAN

e.g. Iranica. --Quantum666 (talk) 17:46, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Please read carefully, there isn't a word, that balaban or duduk is a traditional Azerbaijan or Persian instrument and writing just one sentence doesn't mean the neutrality is disputed.

Funny ))) then see this one: World music: the basics by Richard Nidel, page 213. And have you seen what is written in the tag: The neutrality of this article is disputed. Please see the discussion on the talk page. Please do not remove this message until the dispute is resolved. --Quantum666 (talk) 18:29, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Another one The Caucasus: an introduction by Frederik Coene page 199, which says: duduk is the national instrument of most Caucasian people. And see page 206. --Quantum666 (talk) 18:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

No original research. See ].--Aram-van (talk) 14:03, 23 February 2011 (UTC)ARAM VAN

See the sources and stop adding controversial information. --Quantum666 (talk) 17:47, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

The first link does not say it has Armenian origin at all. Since in this case they are talking about Duduk in Armenia and using Armenian duduk. Therefore it cannot be interpreted as Duduk has Armanian origin. The seconf link is dead so I cant say anything. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.194.102 (talk) 15:27, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Additional UNESCO referance has been added related to the origins of the insturment. Ali55te (talk) 15:46, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Which is written by the Armenian government. The author is "Head of Staff of Ministry of Nature Protection of Armenia". Not a reliable source. And according to Encyclopedia of Islam, duduk is a Turkish instrument. So why should we only use the sources claiming that it is Armenian and ignore those that say it is Turkish, Bulgarian, Azerbaijani, etc? How is it even possible to establish who invented the instrument without having the time machine to travel back in time and see who exactly was the inventor? The origins of instruments like duduk, or drums go back to prehistoric times, and arguing over their origins is pointless. Clearly, things like duduk or dolma shared by many cultures, and claiming them to one particular culture is absurd. I'm restoring the consensus version, and suggest stop arguing over ethnic origins and concentrate on improving the info about the actual instrument. Grandmaster 18:23, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

You are just talking nonsense. It is like the Chewbacca defense in the south park episode. The references are published sources from UNESCO. That publications are reviewed by UNESCO. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs) 22:31, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The article in the Encyclopedia of Islam is referring to an instrument called the Mizmār, not the duduk (and even then it doesn't specify a Turkic origin). The Turkic migrations to the Iranian and Armenian plateaus didn't begin until the eleventh century, by which time the duduk had been existence in Armenia for at least one thousand years, so the attribution to the Turkic groups is not only highly unlikely but misleading.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 18:53, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

The article in Encyclopedia of Islam mentions "Turkish duduk". And how do we know that duduk existed in Armenia one thousand years before 11th century? There's no serious proof of that. Plus, duduk is part of national tradition of non-Turkic people such as Georgians. How is it possible to claim a particular ethnic origin of the instrument? Do we know who was the person who invented it? And see above a whole lot of sources that say the instrument is common to all people of the region, we cannot ignore all those sources. Grandmaster 19:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

So what you're basically saying is that the UNESCO source which says that the roots of the Armenian duduk go back to the time of Tigran II is just joking around and is not taking itself seriously? As for, for that matter, is the professor who says that duduks were portrayed in medieval Armenian manuscripts? It's even doubtful if the "Turkish duduk" the author of the article in the EOI is talking about was found during the initial invasions of the eleventh and early twelfth centuries.--Marshal Bagramyan (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

We know who wrote that UNESCO source. You cannot pick certain opinion over others, when clearly there's no consensus in the scholarly community about the origins of the instrument. Grandmaster 22:56, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

This is getting pretty annoying. If you look at kamancha article it is clearly stated that it has Iranian (Persian) origins . If you look at zurna article it is states that i has Turkic origins. These articles don't have even a reasonable reference state that. Duduk has Armenian origins and we supply enough and reasonable reference for this. Stop removing this. Claiming that this insturment is used on all around Caucasia is Chewbacca defense. Mugham music for example a traditional Azeri music. You can find people in Armenia also who plays mugham music but this does not change the fact that it mugham music has Azeri origins. Stop maliciously vandalising the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs) 19:50, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added reliable sources and altered the intro to reflect what the sources say:

"The duduk is a traditional woodwind instrument indigenous to Armenia. Variations of it are popular in the Caucasus, the Middle East and Central Asia"

There are plenty more sources out there that support this wording, so I think this matter is closed unless anyone thinks otherwise? --Pontificalibus (talk) 21:18, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your valuable contributions. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs) 21:27, 8 March 2011 (UTC)

How could it be indigenous to Armenia, if it is indigenous to the wider region? And how it is possible to prove that it is indigenous to one particular nation? It is the same as saying that violin is indigenous to Italy, because Stradivari made the best violins. As for sources, there are plenty of sources quoted above that say the instrument is popular among many peoples. And also, I would not say that variotions are popular, it is the same instrument that exists in other cultures. There are plenty of shared cultural heritage in the region, including music, cuisine, traditions, etc. And arguments about origins are pointless. Grandmaster 22:52, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

The origin of the insturment has nothing to do with the regions which is played right now. Please give up repeating the same argument again and again and again and again and again and again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ali55te (talk • contribs) 23:26, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Source 1

Where exacly does source 1 mention that the Duduk is Armenian? I couldnt find it. For now the source does not back the sentence in the lead. Neftchi (talk) 07:59, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

While most of these insturments are common throughout middle-eastern music, there is one - the duduk (double reed flute)- which is indigenous to Armenia. This is the first sentence in that page how come you can not see ?Ali55te (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Chromatics???

The link for Chromatics goes to some band instead of where it should... which would be a page discussing the chromatic scale. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.172.106.6 (talk) 00:18, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

The saxophone is a conical instrument, not cylindrical

The statement, "the duduk...is cylindrical in shape (not conical) giving it a quality closer to a clarinet or saxophone than a double-reed," implies that the saxophone is a cylindrical instrument. The saxophone is a conical instrument, as can be seen by looking at one. I suggest that the sentence be made into two sentences, thus breaking the implication. HerbTheHorn (talk) 14:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The etymological debate

I have checked the source, and the Tirgil's sockpuppet edits. I have realised this is indeed a sockpuppet account, the Mrleibpe account. But then, researching the latter I found this: Is Sevan Nisanyan acceptable as a source for etymology - Old noticeboard page

That led me to check the source of this very edit, and indeed the Proto-Turkic (not Turkish btw) theory comes from Sergei Starostin, who worked with Diakonoff. Maybe the edit in this case is constructive, regardless of that sock puppeteer. Please let me know what you think - if Starostin is considered acceptable or reliable, and I can't find the results of the above discussion about Nisanyan either.

Note: To prove I'm not a sock puppet, please feel free to revert the edit if this was indeed disruptive. --92slim (talk) 02:34, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The clue I used is that the Slavic theory that is also mentioned is hosted in starling.rinet.ru or something like that, just like the Turkic edit (web.archive.org version of the same host). --92slim (talk) 15:01, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

The Altaic languages theory promoted by Tirgil34's sock Mrliebeip is highly discredited, as the Altaic languages entry at WP points out. Linguistic fringe theories do not belong at Misplaced Pages's articles on Armenian musical instruments. Krakkos (talk) 20:41, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry if the edit seemed disruptive; I was not aware of this information. Thank you for the informative answer. --92slim (talk) 22:17, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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Tsiranapogh

Can anyone find better evidence for the instrument's early name being "tsiranapogh"? The presently-cited sources seem very marginal to me as reliable sources -- they just quote the claim without any explanation of evidence, and most don't even provide attribution for the claim. Are there any pre-20th century writings that use the word, or oral histories of pre-Soviet Armenians who used the word, or reputable (i.e., evidence-based and peer-reviewed) academic publications on this topic? I worry that the claim could be perceived by readers as being some modern revisionist invention to lend extra "Armenian-ness" to this instrument and distance it from Turkish or Russian influences, so it would be nice if the Misplaced Pages article included stronger sources to back up that claim. Ketone16 (talk) 14:27, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

I was the one who added those sources and I have to agree with you here. Although I'm positive the word "tsiranapogh" was used historically in Armenian, I think the sources are a bit suspicious and do seem to be somewhat revisionist. I will do my best to find stronger sources. But for some reason I doubt they are available. --Երևանցի 06:24, 1 May 2016 (UTC)

Where did you learn that "tsiranapogh" is the historical name? Also, in the absence of more reliable sources, what do you think should be done with the article? Ketone16 (talk) 12:09, 15 May 2016 (UTC)

is correct. The instrument has always been called the tsiranapogh. It is the original name and therefore more credible than duduk.

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