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1) posting both places because i want to make sure somebody besides you hears this. summary on the page, fine -- whatever -- have your happyfuntime (although i think that the controversy is not pertinent to the discussion, as CREATIONISTS do not ascribe to mr cheesedreams pet interpretation of the text -- but whatever -- as long as there's equal time, i'm cool). i would like to ask for a vote, however, on whether to change the title of the article to account(s). Thoughts? Ungtss 23:12, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I HEARBY APOLOGIZE FOR RESPONDING TO CHEESEDREAM'S INCIVILITY WITH INCIVILITY OF MY OWN. please forgive my error. Ungtss 23:12, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

PROPOSAL

i would like to change the name of this article to "Creation account(s) in Genesis," because there is a dispute as to whether there is one more more accounts in the text. I would also like to replace the text in this article with the text in Creation account(s) in Genesis, which describes both POVs with regard to the text in a more evenhanded, NPOV fashion. Any thoughts? Ungtss 23:56, 31 Oct 2004 (UTC)

alright. any opinions, cheesedreams? Ungtss 00:45, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC) the new article, incidentally, is a thorough edit of the old one, and not a new article. i copied, pasted, and edited.

You should either (a) edit the original article, or (b) copy paste and edit in your sandbox and append the page to your user page for discussion, linking from the talk page of the original article.

This is the article, not your page, and the neutrality of this article is all I am willing to discuss. If you dispute the neutrality of this article, then either change it, or complain in this talk page.

I am probably not the only person with any kind of interest in this proposed title change, and you should wait 48 hours at least to see if anyone who lives in another timezone, or is out tonight, or something, makes comment. CheeseDreams 00:54, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

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Let's see. :) The problem seems to be that the page title "Creation accounts in Genesis" implies the POV that there are two different accounts in Genesis. And some people say that there is only ONE account in Genesis. Is that right? ---Rednblu | Talk 01:11, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

that about sums it up, i think:). any thoughts about how to resolve the issue? Ungtss 04:03, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest that we open the discussion on the Creationism page where the master ToDo list is discussed and maintained. Creationism is the highest level page in this series. I'll open the question--if you did not already open it there. ;) ---Rednblu | Talk 05:57, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Bible versions (Birds)

I have changed the biblical quote to the KJV version. It is an important point to note that different translations differ quite substantially. Some (particularly the modern ones) gloss over ambiguities and conflicts which are distinctly present in the Hebrew text.

The KJV is derived from an almost word-for-word (with small POV bias against organised religion - e.g. translating "elder" rather than "priest" (which was corrected at the KJV)) translation, which is itself derived from the celebrated Textus Receptus, the most reliable version of the bible around at the time, which Erasmus painstakingly compiled from all the available versions known, comparing and judging (with NPOV) which edits were the original (by being in the majority of the versions).

Consequently, the KJV does tend to follow the Hebrew fairly accurately, keeping the ambiguities, even when they would have been controversial, even down to the ambiguity over Daniel and Ashpenaz' homosexual-or-not relationship.

However, more modern translations, particularly the New Jerusalem Bible and the New American Bible, translate with heavy bias, e.g. "homosexuality is absolutely forbidden" rather than "a man shall not lie with another man as with a woman" (the hebrew literally says "a man shall not with another man lay layings of a woman", where the is missing, and usually assumed to be "with the" though it can equally be the not-condemning-homosexuality-at-all "in the")

There are many many other places where they edit the text to their POV. In this case, editing is done to obscure the problem, wheras the KJV, in its fairly NPOV style preserves the potential discrepency. This is why I have replaced the quotation, as the others seek to POV the issue. CheeseDreams 01:09, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

i understand your concern about translations ... however, i think it's strongly pov to say that one translation is "right" and the others are wrong, just because the kjv is contradictory. from my understanding of the hebrew, 'owph (foul) could equally refer to mayim sharats (let the waters bring forth) as to 'amar (said). i.e. i think the kjv interpretation is no more valid than the others in the original language ... and ultimately the kjv makes no sense. may i suggest that if you want to do it in an npov way, you apply the hebrew grammar and do a full analysis ... or note that the vast majority of english versions, translated by competent hebrew scholars, interpret it differently than you do? Ungtss 05:17, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I am not saying that one tranlation is right, I am saying that one translation is closer to the Hebrew original from the others. Any ambiguity in the Hebrew tended to be left in the translation, thus the KJV doesnt have as much bias.

The majority of versions are modern evangelical translations. Most other denominations see no point in changing their version, so there is little proliferation of the others.

I have looked at the Hebrew (via this website), though Im absolutely rubbish at translating it. It is generally recognised that translators have a POV and apply it to their translation (look at the New American Bible or New Jerusalem Bible for extreme examples of this (these can be viewed via the previously mentioned website)). Since most modern translations are by evangelical groups, this POV will be towards theirs.

The KJV was produced by a large collection of scholars, with various POV, from what is recognised as one of the most neutral and accurate attempts to obtain an original version in greek / hebrew (from the various differing manuscripts) (this attempt is known as the Textus Receptus). This large differing collection of people makes them more likely to produce a neutral version. The same is true for the few other versions which use a wide range of people of different opinions.

The translation, for example, of "They wept one another, until david had exceeded" retains the ambiguity of whether it is about gay sex (The hebrew technically translates "enlarged" rather than "exceeded", which would imply an erection) or just two friends crying (even though Jonathon has stripped naked before David) wheras the translation "They shook hands and cried together" is clearly a POV spin on this.

In the first part of Genesis, the ambiguity of whether there are two versions of the story or one, present in the Hebrew, is retained in the KJV; it isn't in the NIV. The KJV therefore is more NPOV on such things.

Since this is about ambiguity, then using the NIV version would clearly make people wonder why there was an issue at all. Using the KJV makes it more clear, whilst at the same time not taking sides on the issue.

The fact that the KJV is vague is the whole advantage to using it. It preserves the ambiguity of the original and avoids making a POV decision on how to translate it. The issue about "birds" is indeed that it could refer equally to the waters or to said. That is the whole reason for the ambiguity. The KJV maintains this ambiguity, which is why, in this case, it is a better translation. The one account theory takes it that it refers to said, wheras the two account theory takes it that it refers to waters.

Note that the words in are italicised in the KJV to show that they are inserted into the text by the translators in order for it to make sense. These words are absent from the original completely. The KJV is one of the only versions to admit where it inserts text that is not in the original. This is an important NPOV advantage.

CheeseDreams 12:06, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

If you insist on having both versions in the text then I would like a word for word translation from hebrew to be included as well (i.e. one which translates each word independantly and does not re-arrange the sentance or insert text). Since you seem to comprehend hebrew better than me, could you do this? CheeseDreams 12:14, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. I don't think we need the KJV or RSV quotes on this passage any more. As the versions don't differ on the second passage, can they be replaced with either a paraphrase, or just one of the versions (I would prefer the paraphrase, as otherwise people will keep changing the text to their preferred version, or adding their version). CheeseDreams 14:46, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

No prob -- i'd like to leave the full text of the second in, tho, since it illustrates the single account claim that the second account is more focused on Man's role ... eh?

Ok, that seems fine. I have edited the text a bit - we don't need the original hebrew (people can look that up if they are really that bothered). I have taken out the discussion on bible versions, as that belongs in another article (about difference between bible translations, I don't know what the article is called, or whether it exists yet). It looks a bit neater now. I changed your description of the ambiguity, as I thought of a shorter more explanitary one (pointing out how miniscule, but significant, the difference is) Oh, and I put in a link to a detail on the RSV. CheeseDreams 15:30, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Good work:). Ungtss 15:33, 6 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Clarity please, with these "birds"

--- Begin save container for a word for word translation

In the first section, birds are described as being created as follows:

• "'elohiym 'amar mayim sharats sherets nephesh chay `owph `uwph `al 'erets paniym raqiya` shamayim."
• Literally, "God said waters bring forth creature having life birds fly above earth open firmament heaven"

It is unclear to biblical translators whether the passage should be divided as:

• "God said waters bring forth creature and God said birds fly above earth", or
• "God said waters bring forth creature having life and waters bring forth birds fly above earth."

Due to this ambiguity in the text, English translations differ.

--- End save container for a word for word translationg

What was wrong with the above word for word translation? I thought it explained the issue of this page rather clearly--and rather efficiently. :)) After all, the point of this page is to explain why some people think the two recitations of events differ, is it not? Without something like the above--or an alternative word for word explanation--people like me will not know what on earth this page is talking about!  :(( What do you think? ---Rednblu | Talk 16:17, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

i like it ... any dissent? Ungtss 16:24, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The word-for-word translation is VERY IMPORTANT. It explains why people actually bother discussing this point. CheeseDreams 19:47, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Preserving the BlueLetterBible links for discussion

--- Begin container preserving the BlueLetterBible links

Chapter 1 and Chapter 2

--- End container preserving the BlueLetterBible links

<<Blueletterbible does not have ALL versions of the text, I can name many not available there. Selecting the KJV is POV. Readers should be free to choose their own>>

Hold on.  :(( Having the links to the BlueLetterBible versions makes a better page.  :)) What is your objection to having these links? ---Rednblu | Talk

i think his concern is that not ALL the versions are represented -- he seems to think it's pov to pick one. although i think it would be nice to have links to all versions, i don't think it's pov to have links to all the major ones. may i suggest that we put the links back in since it represents ALMOST all the versions ... and if Mr. Cheesedreams wants to add links to other versions, he puts them in too, instead of leaving the page without any link to the actual story it's talking about? Ungtss 01:57, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How difficult is it for a user to find a copy of the bible themselves and find the first chapter of the first book?

I fail to see why it is necessary to point them to a website, when Google is amazingly good at finding bible links (Just type in "Genesis 1" and "KJV" for example (genesis 1 being in speech marks)).

There are SO many other versions. For example, The New American Bible. There are also the New English Bible (which is NOT on blueletterbible). If you want to point to blueletterbible, add it as an external link at the base of the page, and point it to a neutral page on blueletterbible, such as the introductory page.

The blueletterbible only represents about 10 versions. There are significantly more than this in existance, at least twice as many.

To pick the RSV, or the KJV is POV as to which is better, to list 20 or 30 different links IN THE BODY of an article is messy. CheeseDreams 07:53, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

What if you put links to BlueLetterBible and to BibleGateway (which has even more translations available -- we'd have to see if any are particularly worthwhile) and to US Catholic Bishops (New American) , but in the "External Links" section. You can indicate in the text that there are resources in "External Links" to provide various translations of the two chapters. By linking to one text in the actual article, we are favoring that translation, but it would be unwieldy to provide lots of links there. It might be worth individually linking some 5-6 major translations, plus the Hebrew text, indicating that there are more available at those sites. Mpolo 08:04, Nov 8, 2004 (UTC)

External links is fine for a collection of bible websites. (The hebrew is available on blueletter bible)CheeseDreams 09:02, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In my opinion, it would be much better to have the external links right up there in the lead section--like in a table. Give the link and the number of translations available there. It would be impressive! The number of translations says more to me than the words in the texts. :)) ---Rednblu | Talk 09:26, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Table added. Ungtss 15:04, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I don't think it counts as content. I think it counts as links. CheeseDreams 19:53, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

How about a table something like the following? What are the other sites? :((

What do you think? ---Rednblu | Talk 16:38, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Let us quote actual proponents here; this is not personal research!

<<They claim that there is no reason to assume that understanding of Ancient Hebrew grammer is sufficiently lacking for the sentence to be unambiguous, given the significant knowledge of early languages that is built up by Comparative Philology.>>

May I point out that the above sentence does not make sense. And I am giving you the benefit of the doubt for now that you can explain it. Now maybe I don't understand which BC century Comparative philology began. ;) Or maybe I am wrong in having the impression that 1500 BC writing technology was fragile; miscopies were easy; no Xeroxes.  :( Or maybe I have a wrong impression that ancient scribes tried to preserve even ambiguous phrases from the sacred past in hope that someone would finally figure them out. In any case, you will score ten points--not just one--in my book if you can quote an actual scholar who said anything similar to the above assertion. In the meantime, I suggest that we cut that sentence here to the TalkPage for preservation while you begin that long search to find some reputable scholar who said anything even close to "They claim that there is no reason to assume that understanding of Ancient Hebrew grammer is sufficiently lacking for the sentence to be unambiguous, given the significant knowledge of early languages that is built up by Comparative Philology." Who is They? What do you say? ---Rednblu | Talk 20:09, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I suggest that the text is restored to the article until you can provide a reputable scholar who suggests the counterclaim in the article. CheeseDreams 23:56, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I changed that link to work. It is now Historical linguistics. Does that make any sense to you? The basis of the argument is that language A is related to language B, therefore we interpolate to work out what language AB(the ancestor) was like. Further we can work out what B was like in missing detail B.45b by the corresponding detail in A.45b and lots of academic discussion. I.e. by knowing Modern Hebrew, bits of Aramaic, bits of Demotic, bits of .... and obviously bits of Ancient Hebrew, we can fill in the blanks, particularly as there are not so many. This is the basic principle of Historical linguistics (also called Comparative Philology). The bible was not written in 1500BC. Please check the articles on the origin of writing. From Hebrew Alphabet This script was borrowed by the Hebrews during the 12th or 11th century BC, and around the 9th century BC, a distinct Hebrew variant, the original "Hebrew script", emerged. I.e. no Hebrew writing before 12th century. CheeseDreams 23:46, 8 Nov 2004 (UTC)

---

No the sentences

• "In addition, they point out that having written the Hebrew text, the author would surely have noted the ambiguity and corrected it, unless there was a reason to keep the implication of birds being created from the waters. They claim that there is no reason to assume that understanding of Ancient Hebrew grammer is sufficiently lacking for the sentence to be unambiguous, given the significant knowledge of early languages that is built up by Historical linguistics"

do not make sense in this paragraph. I have a couple of citations to support the preceding sentences in that paragraph. I am looking for a better citation. ---Rednblu | Talk 03:55, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

citations should be referenced at the bottom of the page. Don't add too much bulk to just one side of the argument, it is POV. I have tagged certain parts out until the documentary hypothesis is pointed out in similar detail (also note that variations on the documentary hypothesis are the majority academic view, so suggesting it isn't by a whole section is rather distoring).

since you seem to have a particular interest in the documentary hypothesis, would you be so kind as to flesh out the other side? Ungtss 14:11, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I have reworded the birds section for readability. CheeseDreams 21:40, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Begin preservation container of cut text

Alternative conclusions: What the texts mean

Since scholars differ in their interpretations of the text, so they differ in their conclusions as to how creation happened according to the text.

End preservation container of cut text

May I point out that there is no rational reason :) for commenting out the above text. What are your objections? :( ---Rednblu | Talk 16:37, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

he seems to be concerned that we're introducing a PRO-single account argument without a corresponding two-account counter-argument. it seems to me, tho, that the author would probably object to being stuffed into EITHER category, as (as i understand it) she thinks it could legitimately be read EITHER way without making the text less valuable. may i suggest we list THREE perspective -- "one account," "two accounts," or "could be read either way?" Ungtss 16:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. I can see that--now that I think about it. :) That makes sense. I will put the cut text back in--with the three headings that you suggest--that makes sense. ---Rednblu | Talk 17:24, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The text is very nebulous, and devoid of content. However, what she does say, or rather, what she is paraphrased as, seems on balance to be PRO. In addition, it seems to be simply about the issue of Style. It should be re-written and moved there. I have re-tagged it out and moved it. This is not a place to write novels. CheeseDreams

Conclusions if there are two accounts

Scholarly alternative: The texts can be read either way

Biblical scholar Pamela Tamarkin Reis (2001) proposes that Genesis 1 and 2 can be seen as either one painting with two panels or as two separate paintings. Both are appropriate. She draws the parallel with the ancient story-telling technique that Kurosawa employed in the movie Rashomon. In that movie, the same series of events are told through the eyes of four different people, and of course realistically there are contradictions in the different narratives. And you could make sense out that movie either as four different stories or as four people having four different realistic narratives of the same story.

Accordingly, Ms. Reis analyzes Genesis 1 as God's narrative and Genesis 2 as man's narrative. In Genesis 1, the style of narration is very orderly and logical, proceeding from basics like heaven and earth, through plants and animals to man and woman. And everything is "good" or "very good." Ms. Reis suggests that the story-teller has a bit of whimsy in noting how perfect everything is from God's view.

In contrast, in Genesis 2, man tells the story from his own self-centeredness. Man is created first, of course. And there are a few flaws. Man is alone, without a woman. Whereas, in Genesis 1, the phrase is "heaven and earth" repeated several times, in Genesis 2, God makes "earth and heaven." And another thing, in Genesis 2, there is that troubling notice that "there was no one to till the ground." That sounds like a lot of work, an unending task--very unlike the completeness of Genesis 1.

Even the words used in Genesis 1 suggest serenity, the godly plane of existence. For example, in Genesis 1, the word for God is Elohim, the generic and distant God, while God's name in Genesis 2 is the personal and very sacred YHWH Elohim, the Lord of God. Even the verb of making is different in the two narratives, in the first narrative the verb is the Hebrew "arb" which means "create from nothing," something that only God can do. In contrast, the verb in the second narrative means "make," God "made earth and heaven." Maybe man cannot make earth and heaven, but at least man can make many things from what is already lying about. And then there is that interesting little interest in gold and lapis lazuli--only in the second narrative, of course. From God's view in the first narrative, gold is not even mentioned; gold is something only in man's narrative.

From all of these clues, Ms. Reis suggests that Genesis 1 and 2 make sense either way, just as for Kurosawa's Rashomon. They make sense as two different stories. Or they make sense as two narratives of the same story from different personal perspectives: that of God and that of man.

End preservation container of cut text

May I point out that there is no rational reason :) for commenting out the above text. What are your objections? :( ---Rednblu | Talk 16:37, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

he seems to be concerned that we're introducing a PRO-single account argument without a corresponding two-account counter-argument. it seems to me, tho, that the author would probably object to being stuffed into EITHER category, as (as i understand it) she thinks it could legitimately be read EITHER way without making the text less valuable. may i suggest we list THREE perspective -- "one account," "two accounts," or "could be read either way?" Ungtss 16:46, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Yes. I can see that--now that I think about it. :) That makes sense. I will put the cut text back in--with the three headings that you suggest--that makes sense. ---Rednblu | Talk 17:24, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)