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Food and drink: Beverages B‑class Top‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Food and drink, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of food and drink related articles on Misplaced Pages. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Food and drinkWikipedia:WikiProject Food and drinkTemplate:WikiProject Food and drinkFood and drink B This article has been rated as B-class on Misplaced Pages's content assessment scale. Top This article has been rated as Top-importance on the project's importance scale. Related taskforces: /  This article is within the scope of the Beverages Task Force, a task force which is currently considered to be inactive. Food and Drink task list: edit history watch purge To edit this page, select here Here are some tasks you can do for WikiProject Food and drink: Help bring these Top Importance articles currently B Status or below up to GA status: Agaricus bisporus (i.e. mushroom), Beef, Bread, Curry, Drink, Food, Ham and eggs, Soy sauce, Sushi, Yogurt Bring these Top Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Beer, French cuisine, Sugar Bring these High Importance articles currently at GA status up to FA status: Apple, Burger King, Fish Participate in project-related deletion discussions. Delete unrelated trivia sections found in articles. Please review WP:Trivia and WP:Handling trivia to learn how to do this. Add the {{WikiProject Food and drink}} project banner to food and drink related articles and content to help bring them to the attention of members. For a complete list of banners for WikiProject Food and drink and its child projects, select here. Provide photographs and images for Category:Misplaced Pages requested images of food Consider joining this project's Assessment task force. List any project ideas in this section Note: These lists are transcluded from the project's tasks pages.

The contents of the Rimming sugar page were merged into Cocktail. For the contribution history and old versions of the redirected page, please see its history; for the discussion at that location, see its talk page.

Redirect

"Pink Squirrel" likewise redirects here. No mention of Pink Squirrel in the text. 65.90.33.15 (talk) 21:35, 17 December 2008 (UTC) I got redirected to this cocktail page after searching for the song 'Between the Sheets' by the Isley Brothers. Between the Sheets is one of the most commonly hello how are you..? sampled and covered singles of all time, and should have its own page. A slang term shouldn't get in the way of another page.

I wouldn't necessarily call it 'slang' since the cocktail Between the Sheets dates from the 1920s<--- lol yeah I was going to say the eisley brothers were around in the early 20th century, wow!

Is the placing of a rooster feather in 18th or early 19th century "cocktails" actually historically documented? I've heard the story called dubious folk-ethmology.

According to here, http://www.word-detective.com/back-x.html, and here http://www.nmk.co.za/content/cocktails/cocktail_origins.htm ,all the etymologies (and I've see at least a dozen) are speculative. I included the "feather" reference because, unlike the others I've read, this one includes a functionality of the feather in the drink and not just a distortion of another word, which appeals to my pragmatic nature. I'll add a reference to these notes.David dePaoli

The earliest I found of the feather story was 1896, but I think I found it by accident I wasn't even looking for that, so it may go back way further. Still, thats still almost 100 years from the purported birth of the cocktail, which is mentioned 200 years before that, by shakespear in Romeo in Juliet "death cocktail". He died in 1616 so we know the term was in use then. Dont believe me see it for yourself. but what do I know, i'm not expert or even valuable enough to contribute without being reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:32, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

What is the origin of the name "Tom Collins"? Was it invented by a guy named Tom?

Named for Old Tom Gin, a sweetened gin common in the 19th century

--ThirtyOneKnots 14:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC) In "The world of drinks" in 1892 there is a poem that the story derives from "my name is john collins, head waiter at limmers, corner of conduit square, my chief occupation is filling the brimmers of all the young gentlemen who frequently there" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:12, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

That's correct. John Collins at Limmer's is now considered the origin of the Collins drink name. That an Old Tom style gin would have been used makes historical sense, and that the drink name might have shifted over time from "John Collins" to "Tom Collins" seems not only reasonable but likely, according to drink historians.MetaGrrrl (talk) 17:45, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure flavored seltzers are often consumed as a beverage in New York State, not just used as a mixer. Sometimes tonic water too. Soda is seltzer and tonic is quinine. Thats why the "q" button on a bar gun is for tonic. "L" is for lemon-lime "sprite".

What has happened to the image Flaming cocktails that is used by this article? - ] 15:03, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

From Misplaced Pages:Deletion log archive/November 2004 (2):

15:15, 19 Nov 2004 Ed g2s deleted Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg (moved to commons)

However, I can't seem to find it on Commons, so I suppose it should be re-uploaded? (The source link is still in the image description page's deleton history.) -- Hadal 16:26, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Update: It was at the Commons up until yesterday. From Commons:Deletion log:

14:22, 3 Dec 2004 DaB. deleted "Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg" (URV/Copyrightproblem)

See also the image's listing at Commons:Deletion requests#Image:Flaming cocktails.jpg. This would explain why it suddenly disappeared. So, if it is indeed a copyright porblem (as it appears DaB. seems to think so, since s/he also deleted the image from de:), perhaps it should not be re-uploaded? I don't know how the Commons copyright policy differs from Misplaced Pages's, if at all. -- Hadal 17:08, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The following line sounds a bit like a political statement. Is it really needed?

It is said, also to be of great use to a Democratic candidate: because a person, having swallowed a glass of it, is ready to swallow anything else.Higanesh2003 (talk) 20:36, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Partisan reference

There are lots of references to the effects of alcohol. Is there a particular reason for choosing one that mentions Democrats? bobblewik 11:14, 19 March 2006 (UTC)

This quote is significant because it is the first written definition of the word "cocktail" and in any case Democratic here does not refer to the modern Democratic Party but to the Democratic-Republican Party whose ideological successors are more accurately the modern Republican Party. --ThirtyOneKnots 14:30, 17 April 2006 (UTC)

Mandarin etymology

"The Mandarin name for cocktail is Jee Wooui Geuui. Jee means rooster/chicken/cock Wooui means tail and Geuui means liquor." I greatly doubt it, and I would also like to know what "transcription" this might be. Could some Mandarin-speaker prove or disprove this (and make the according corrections)? --Oop 14:57, 6 April 2006 (UTC)

About the possible mandarin origin

I've learned chinese for 1 year so the best I could do was to correct the transliteration and add the ideographs. But as to the hypothesis itself, I consider it far-fetched given the fact that as far as I know some words in Mandarin are either very self-descriptive or a result a a direct translation from other languages, especially English, e.g. airplane - 飞机, feiji - literally "flying machine"; microwave oven - 微波炉, weibolu - literally 微 - tiny or micro, 波 - wave and 炉 - oven. Not really great examples, I know, but you get the point. I hope someone can clear this out, but in the meantime it's at least written correctly anyway. -- 18:00, 12 May 2006 (UTC-3)

Between the Sheets

Why does "Between the Sheets" redirect there? Purple Rose 11:08, 9 June 2006 (UTC)

How about make a page about between the sheets? example - Between the sheets (song) Between the sheets (cocktail)

How about instead having "Between the Sheets" just point at the "song? We don't have "Manhattan" redirect here. Nor "cosmopolitan," nor "mudslide." "Between the sheets" is not mentioned on this page other than in the redirect notice, so there is little chance that anyone who is searching for information on this obscure cocktail will find any useful information on the page. Barring some logic posted here, I am going to change this redirect.

Some corrections

A) I've read that coktail originally meant a mixer of to spirits, not what we drink nowadays, spirts and non-alcoholi beverages. b) I've also read that the cocktail was invented in New Orleans in the 19th Century. This is want they claimed during the Cocktail festival this past July.

Dont go to tales, real bartenders were around before tales, btw they are not 11 years old, even in 2007 tales was unheard of, maybe 20 people tops. That whole trend is over anyway, alot of those top "mixologist" dont even bartend anymore, dont believe me, read their blogs, the trend is over. btw who do you think they got that information from?184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:17, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Rumors of the death of the cocktail and claims of a single-city origin for cocktails in general have both been greatly exaggerated. The original cocktail, first defined in print in 1806, consisted of spirit+bitters+sugar+water, not 'a mix of two spirits'. "Cocktails" were originally only one category of mixed drink alongside many others (flips, fizzes, cobblers, etc.) and the word gradually became the dominant term, those other varieties now falling under its general umbrella. The sense of cocktail meaning a mixture of things has broadened its use into other areas such as, for example, "fruit cocktail", a mixture of fruits. New Orleans is a very important city in the origin of the cocktail, and in the popularization of cocktail drinking during the 19th century and since. However, local claims as the origin of the drink should properly be viewed much like Nashville's claim to be the "home of country music". As to the supposed insignificance of the festival Tales of the Cocktail, it should be noted that pretty much every living reference cited in this article presented there at this past festival. It is the preeminent, international, professional convention for the bartending industry, and it is growing larger in attendance, not smaller. Further, the expansion of cocktails into new markets (particularly restaurants which formerly focused exclusively or nearly so on wine) continues to be on an upswing. At some point saturation will surely be reached, but the current boom has shown no signs of peaking yet, despite the 'speakeasy' trend giving way to other less precious approaches.MetaGrrrl (talk) 18:03, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

old fashion

Do you know if the original reciepe of the Old Fashion? Is it with soda? Seltzer was introduced nationally in 1883 so probably not considering the old fashion predates this. But what do I know, i'm not even valuable enough to contribute without being reverted.

The Old-Fashioned was a name which arose in the second half of the 19th century when the variety of cocktails began to expand and it became useful to distinguish the most traditional presentation of a cocktail (spirit, a small amount of sugar or simple syrup, and a dash of bitters, perhaps garnished with a twist of citrus peel) from its newer relations, many of which incorporated additional ingredients. The addition of seltzer may have come about through bartenders making this classically small (~2 ounce) drink in too large a glass, and wishing to "lengthen" it so as not to appear to be cheating the customer on quantity.MetaGrrrl (talk) 07:16, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Mixology

Mixology shouldn't redirect here, it should have its own page. Thoughts? JesseRafe 07:16, 12 October 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Defiantly should have it's own page. -- Al™ 02:15, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Just expanded the Dutch cocktail wikipage with the elementary how to (build, stir, shake and blend among other things). Can't find anything like that in the otherwise extended cocktail-articles in English. Sander1453 (talk) 10:17, 18 February 2013 (UTC)

Rohypnol

"However, alcohol is not essential, the turn of the century has given rise to other sorts of cocktails, e.g. rohypnol and coke, the so called 'saturday night special'."

Surely this is both confusing and innacurate especially in its current position within the article. Is there any evidence of this type of "cocktail" gaining popularity this century? Surely there is nowhere where one can order this from a cocktail bar and therefore more explaination of what this reference means is required. This should either be expanded on in a section about drug cocktails or removed entirely to an article on spiked drinks and/or "date rape" drugs. This can't possibly remain as it does so I am removing it until someone either rewrites with a proper explaination or provides the proper citation. --JamesTheNumberless 15:24, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for removing that. I am not even sure what rohypnol is, but it certainly does not fit the definition of cocktails as I have come to know it. Further, it contradicts many other sources we have listed throughout this section of the Misplaced Pages. --Willscrlt 23:46, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

It's a drug commonly associated with date-rape, I think it was originally designed as a sleeping aid. Incidentally I also removed the reference to virgin cocktails as it was poorly written and the explaination of the name, as a reference to alcohol consumption being a sin (presumably a reference to Islam) since there is no direct connection. Perhaps a better word would be "innocense" as a cocktail could be said to be dishonest by hiding the flavour of alcohol but a virgin cocktail more innocent as it has nothing to hide. But this would be as much guesswork as the original comment, since I have no sources to cite. --JamesTheNumberless 11:36, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Woo Woo

can someone tell me why "Woo Woo" redirects here? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 216.81.197.249 (talk) 15:46, 22 March 2007 (UTC).

• "Woo Woo" is a type of cocktail, so that's probably why. AiusEpsi 10:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Liquid Cocaine

Why does Liquid Cocaine redirect here? Its a very controversial every drink which doesn't actually contain any cocaine. Rjkd12 23:12, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

Liquid Cocaine should redirect to Golden Elk. 24.218.218.9 02:58, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

Non-Alcoholic Cocktails

When I go to the market, I often see a bottle of juice (non alcoholic) labeled as a cocktail, i.e. Cranberry Cocktail, Mix Berry Cocktail, ect. I notice the article doesn't touch on these kinds of cocktails. Is there a reason for this? 71.136.242.178 05:18, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

Because they are mixers and not cocktails. They are named "cocktails" because society has fallen victim to stereotypes and anything thats liquid that mixes with anything else semi liquid is automatically a "cocktail" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:38, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that these are referred to as "cocktails" because they are a balanced mixture of ingredients intended to create a new, distinct drink. Stereotype need not be blamed when common structure is available instead.MetaGrrrl (talk) 07:20, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

External Links

I see a fairly long list of external links here. I'm not sure which ones should/shouldn't be kept. Would someone be willing to look them over and update it so the article adheres to WP:NOT#LINK Ank329 18:04, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I'll give this another day or two, and then I'll be bold, and cut down the external links myself. Ank329 02:55, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Removed link spam... Ank329 04:56, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

The links are coming back. I have removed the corksout link twice now. As the site exists primarily "to sell products or services," it is in clear violation of WP:ELNO. Rees11 (talk) 11:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

Popular with Prohibition?

"The cocktail became popular with Prohibition in the United States." That's simply not true, according to the sources I've read (Wondrich, Regan, DeGroff, etc). Someone needs to seriously re-write the history section. If I get ambitious I'll do it. Rees11 (talk) 15:27, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

you proudly read the guy who truly believes cocktail comes from sticking ginger up a horses ass and making its tail cock and make it frisky. ... thats your hero

Cocktail Deadly?

can someone write something about why cocktails can really mess up ur face and cause it to swell forever as said in this article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/tees/7598614.stm. many people who drank cocktails became deformed due to violent chemical reactions which means this drink can be very dangerous, something should be said about that. Dioxholster (talk) 22:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

This doesn't seem at all notable or interesting to me. Rees11 (talk) 02:08, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Recipe section

I removed the new Recipe section. It didn't seem to add any new information. It would be a bad idea to start listing recipes here, as these are controversial enough already, and they are given in the separate articles for individual drinks if they are notable enough. The external links are worthless. There is a separate list of cocktails linked from here if the reader wants to learn more. Rees11 (talk) 22:26, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Suggest merger of Rimming Sugar into this article

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result was merge into Cocktail. -- danno 13:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Currently, Rimming sugar is a stub that has remained a 3 sentence stub since 2005 and to be honest I don't really see how it could be expanded into anything resembling a standalone article. As it stands, it's just a target for people keen to exploit its innuendo potential. I think that it would work far better as a subsection here. Anyone got any views? danno 19:18, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

This sounds like a good idea.Wahrmund (talk) 21:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I am in favor. Rees11 (talk) 22:58, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

It could easily be a full article - there are hundreds of sources for most anything alcohol related, and if we were to put material of this level of detail in the master article it would become hopelessly long. There's no real harm in merging or just redirecting for now given that the other article doesn't stand on its own for now, but it should be without prejudice to anyone wanting to create it as a bona fide article. Not that I would put that at the top of my list... there are still oodles of redlinks and major topics not covered in this corner of Misplaced Pages. Wikidemon (talk) 18:37, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Am I the only one that knows a cocktail is a drink itself? I am aware it is an entire category of drinks, but where is the recipe for a cocktail? I think recipes for a cocktail should be included for the fact that this drink has one, call me crazy. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 11:29, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I've been studying cocktail history for 15 years (and indeed have written an award-nominated book on the topic) and I have always heard 'cocktail' used to describe a category, either very specific as in early book appearances of the 1860s through 1890s or else in the modern broadest sense encompassing all mixed drinks (including those previously considered separate categories such as fizzes and flips). Please provide a reference or recipe for this singular drink called 'cocktail'.MetaGrrrl (talk) 18:09, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

I think all the unsourced entries in the Etymology section should be removed, and the remaining entries (two of them?) turned into a short paragraph. Rees11 (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2009 (UTC)

Image sizes

There has been a lot of back and forth over the image sizes. Please read WP:ImageSize. The main thing to remember here is that not everyone has the same screen and browser that you have. You can tweak the image sizes and placements so they look good to you, and they will look terrible to someone with different screen and font sizes. Misplaced Pages users have the option to choose their default image sizes to suit their own screen, and when you force a particular image size it defeats the user preferences. So please just let the image sizes default instead of forcing them to fit your screen (and no one else's). Rees11 (talk) 13:24, 14 October 2009 (UTC)

Derivative uses

This section seems utterly unrelated to the rest of the article and a bit spurious tbh. If anything, wouldn't it be best disambiguated? Ride the Hurricane (talk) 14:47, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

I agree. I think this is adequately covered by the "otheruses" template at the top of the article (which I have just changed to an "about" template). Rees11 (talk) 16:07, 30 December 2009 (UTC)

(Four years on...) I agree and have removed the section. SQGibbon (talk) 22:51, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Etymology

What about the the pony etymology: on horse auctions, mixed-blood horses were marked by binding their tail upward just as a cock tail (so-called cocktailed ponies). The notion of mixing things together was then taken from horses to drinks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.73.88.114 (talk) 23:02, 11 April 2010 (UTC)

This makes the most sense, considering it is one of the earliest and indeed, many drinks were named after horses during this time frame (horse's neck, stinger, old-fashioned, and the cocktail itself (half breed racing horse). To be fair though, this was a mystery over a hundred years ago. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.73.10.230 (talk) 11:32, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

The above is absolutely correct and has been confirmed by cocktail historians. The word cocktail appears well over a 1000 times in literature before 1806 or even 1798. Why does the first printing matter anyway? and why would you write something in the position to be corrected in the future, like "first". Why not say "as early as". Makes more sense. The word cocktail 100% derives from the term for the half breed racing horse. this should be added and accredited properly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:7704:2D30:8884:6771:587:3535 (talk) 03:59, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The reference to high-spirited horses seems the most likely of all the possible origin stories and is, as of this year, the one considered most likely by David Wondrich, the preeminent historian of all matters relating to such beverages. Here's the quote: ″And I actually know where ′cocktail′ came from, pretty solidly. It’s in the book. Ginger was used in the horse trade to make a horse stick its tail up. They'd put it in its ass. If you had an old horse you were trying to sell, you would put some ginger up its butt, and it would cock its tail up and be frisky. That was known as “cock-tail.” It comes from that. It became this morning thing. Something to cock your tail up, like an eye-opener. I’m almost positive that’s where it’s from.″ That origin story fits very well with contemporaneous use of "ginger" as a slang term. MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I found this on internet

Bathed by the waters of the Gulf of Mexico, in a picturesque bay on the Yucatan Peninsula, lies the historic port of Campeche, which once gave birth to the most intrepid sailors of America and the most skilled boatbuilders. Many years ago I came to this picturesque tropical port to load majestic sailboats English mahogany and other hardwoods, wood from Brazil, logwood and other various products. No shipped gum, because at that time only chewed the lower classes in Mexico. The officers and sailors down to earth and quench their thirst at the gates of the taverns or in the doorways of the main square. At that time he drank wine, liquor and alcohol without mixing. Ever took "Dracs" of rum, brandy or other spirits, which were prepared drinks in a glass made of thick glass which slowly churning the ingredients with a spoon. Possibly the word "drac" was a corruption of Drake, the British hero of the adventures at sea. In one of those beaches in the Mexican port, the bartender who served drinks used to prepare instead of spoons or sticks, roots thin, fine and smooth of a plant there called for his particular form "rooster tail." British sailors,to see the revolver guy drinks the root of yore, strange to them, they asked what it was, to which he replied "rooster tail" or in English "cock-tail." Henceforth not called "Dracs" but "cocktails."

This is more accurate here in the city where im living.. Campeche --MayaZero 02:52, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

To the notion of the rooster, I'd like to suggest that the rooster signifies the beginning of a day, and perhaps the 'cock's tail' signifies it's end, when cocktails are typically enjoyed.

Adam — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.73.31.23 (talk) 04:15, 19 August 2011 (UTC)

The whole dipping a feather story is at least 100 years old. The origin of the word cocktail has been a mystery as long as the cocktail itself. Look at any literature prior to the 19th century and even well into the 19th century, they all suggest a cocktail is "not a full breed racing horse" period. It says this over and over and over. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.190.80.94 (talk) 09:21, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Contradictory Histories

The history section of this article seems to contradict the Etymology section in discussion of the first printed reference. It also includes the same quote as the Etymology section. It seems to me this quote and reference should just be removed from the Etymology section and the reference should be moved up to the History section, but I don't want to do that without access to the original source.

clahey (talk) 23:25, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Definition of cocktail

The current definition in the article—"any beverage that contains three or more ingredients if at least two of them contain alcohol"—is highly problematic as it excludes many drinks widely understood to be cocktails, for example the Piña Colada to name one off the top of my head. I recommend this be changed to that from Oxford Dictionaries—"An alcoholic drink consisting of a spirit or several spirits mixed with other ingredients, such as fruit juice, lemonade, or cream"—or something similar.

It'd be good to add"bitters" into that list of other common ingredients to honor the earliest definitions—spirit, sugar, bitters—distinguishing 'cocktails' from other drink types (e.g. fizzes, smashes, etc.) in the days before the term expanded as an umbrella encompassing all mixed drinks with alcoholic ingredients.

This is hardly the only problem in this page, but it'd be a good start to fix it. (And perhaps here I am making a note to my future, less-busy self.) MetaGrrrl (talk) 03:10, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

The cocktail was named after the type of horse in the mid 19th century. Many drinks were named after horses at this time. Horse's Neck, Stinger, Old Fashioned, and of course, cocktail. I'm positive many others were named after horses during this time also, but since fell out of favor. I will be editing and cleaning this page up, unless anyone objects? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 14:50, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

The article already mentions this as one possible etymology. How would you change this? SQGibbon (talk) 21:44, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

its not a possibility, it's absolute fact. Laird's applejack 2002 cook book specifically outlines, the drink, race, horse, bred far before any 2007 reference that is false and outdated anyway.  

we can get into this whole page if you prefer?

The Hibernian Magazine, Or, Compendium of Entertaining Knowledge in 1786

"to drink grog--after a while nothing would satisfy him but bitter slings, made of equal parts of rum and water, with a little sugar."

is a way earlier reference and a recipe than 1797 or 1806 or whatever.

furthermore, would you like the literally 100s of reference specifically defining a cocktail as a half bred racing horse at this time?

would you like the historians names I have spoken to in reference to how racing was americas most popular pastime for centries?

or shall we just work on one thing at a time?

So this whole page needs to be changed, the entire thing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 19:47, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

or would you rather believe wondrich and sticking ginger up horses rear ends to make them frisky. He not only said it, he's proud of it, he obviously wrote about it himself above. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 19:49, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

and furthermore NO IT DOESNT LIST THIS AS A POSSIBLE, docking the tails of a horse is not a liqueur company being solely responsible for the creation of a drink. They are half bred racing horses, period. This is fact. Again, this is not a POSSIBLE theory, it's fact, with hard literature evidence. And the only reason any of these other theories should be left is good faith and to show contrast.

Read the book, then you will see it is clear as daylight. besides all these other theories everything doesnt add up. The ingredients, timeframe, name, so many other factors just dont fit. Yet, this does, and a 2002 book confirms and proves it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 19:55, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't doubt the use of the word "cocktail" when referring to horse races (the OED makes this clear). That there is a connection between cocktailed horses and the drink seems entirely reasonable to me and that theory is already present in the article. Why you think "Laird's Applejack Cookbook" from 2002 is the only reliable source on the topic is a bit puzzling. What do you base that on? Plenty of other reliable sources have not reached the same conclusion.

We are not here to determine the truth. We are only here to report what reliable sources state. There is no consensus from experts on the etymology of the word with respect to drinks. If you believe your source is reliable (and I don't see why you do) and that its etymology is sufficiently different from the others then by all means go ahead and add it to the article.

And for what it's worth, I don't think Wondrich's theory is likely to be correct at all but he is a reliable source and that's why we include it.

And please, calm down. I did not ask my question looking for a fight. I personally don't care one whit what the outcome to this is. All I care about is making sure we follow Misplaced Pages policies and guidelines and that one person doesn't push their opinions all over Misplaced Pages. SQGibbon (talk) 20:57, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

You know what, if you're really denying physical, tangible evidence with hard literature supporting it, I can be of no use to you. The sky is blue is not an opinion, in as much as the old fashioned is named after old fashion, in as much as the cocktail is named after cocktail racing mares.

Cocktails are not docktailed horses. They are specifically half bred racing horses, this is not only found in "applejack: the spirit of americana" page 134 - 138 in (edition 1992), but you find cocktail defined as a half bred racing horse over and over again in early literature.

For Christ sake's man, look at wikipedias own fashion page https://en.wikipedia.org/Fashion_(horse)

Not only that, they named a track after her which also appears multiple times in early 19th century literature. 100,000 people in one stadium in 1842, trains broke down, 40 senators in attendance, and a book proving this, and you're really going to sit here and tell me this isn't fact?

really? please help me understand your mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 05:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

and what "plenty" of reliable sources do you mean, last time I checked, the old fashion and cocktail were still a mystery, you know, until now and stuff.

Even the very article you post about wondrich claims "he finally figured it out" in 2015, meaning it wasn't figured out before then?

I see nothing about half bred racing horses, I see nothing about the laird's families involvement in fashion's life. I see nothing of fashion. I see nothing but theories to be honest.

I feel bad for you, I really do. I'm sorry you believe these other cocktail historians work when it's been proven wrong time and time again. I do feel bad. It is obvious you are not open to eye opening realities but rather believe wives tales. If you cant see that this isnt already on the page, then there is no need for us to communicate any longer, because our level of understanding and reading comprehensions of eachothers words are not equal, in any form. I'm sorry if this complicated your busy day. I'm sorry for you also, I hope you are well. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 06:00, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

and I dont see how he would be a reliable source and I am not?

I have read the wp:rs and all this information is in The Official International Professional Bartender's Guide in 2009 by Tarbutton Press, three rivers, Mi. isbn: 978-1-56581-231-4 52250 Author Expert Master Mixologist David Herpin

Can you explain that? How are you not being biased, seriously, is he your relative or something? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 06:40, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

again, im sorry, lets just forget this whole conversation and ill never see you again. I realize that I know nothing about cocktails and cocktail history and my work is meaningless and not popular. Obviously, it's a wise decision on your part, because you wouldnt want to subject yourself to believe "crazy theories" like cocktails being named after cocktails, man, then people might think you're foolish. which, by your character you are clearly wise and can see far greater than I. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Drinkreader (talk • contribs) 06:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)

1. Robert Simonson (April 6, 2015). "David Wondrich Has Finally Figured Out the Real Origin of the Word Cocktail". Grubstreet. Retrieved December 27, 2015. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameters: |month= and |coauthors= (help)

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