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To kennethennyson

The indo-sino war is relate to the indo-pak war because all these wars happened in indian territory e.g indo-pak wars were fought rann of kutch, kashmir, and part of punjab. Indo-sino war fought in assam, Ladkh (aski chin) and so on. Assam definitely Indian territory (indo-sino war) and punjab + rajasthan definitely Indian territory. So common thing is a attack on undisputed Indian territory.

NPOV

Greetings. I agree that there was a problem before, but the current Kalaripayattu article is pretty neutral, so I took the tag off and placed a "controversial" tag on the article's talk page.

Just generally, I'm pretty sure that there was a pan-Eurasian culture set in the Neolithic and early bronze age, but we can only infer it, there is no way to really prove it. As well, there, IMO, isn't any way to prove that KP is the origin of Chinese martial arts. Confucius in the Analects mentions martial training. Qin Shi Huangdi's Terra Cotta Army even had a few statues in kung fu poses, which date from the 3rd century BC, probably 2-300 years before the introduction of Buddhism, and 600 years before Ta Mo. There we have it. Fire Star 04:42, 22 Jun 2005 (UTC)

sign your comments

Dear Kenneth,

As you are never LOGIN to do EDITS please use following to sign your comments

{{user|kennethtennyson}}

It will output something like.

kennethtennyson (talk · contribs)

Hi,

  I just want to let you know some informations. There is a literary proof that an Indian monk (from SouthIndia) travelled towards East, visited some countries and then finally setteled in China. It was common in India for saints or monks to learn Yoga. There is also a belief that the monk was a heir of Pallava King. The South Indian Kings were highly trained with the martial arts. 
  Kalari is not the only art in SouthIndia, there are other martialarts, called VerumKai Sandai, VarmaKalai, Silambattam, VajraMusti, etc. The South Indian martial arts says that a warrior should be trained with 18 types of weapons. A heir of King, who is eligible to throne or not will be trained with the martial arts from his childhood by an 'Aasan'. There is one more proof regarding this...
  Everyone should have heard about King RajaRajaChola - The Great(1), his elder brother AdithyaKarikalan was assassinated by 3 assassins. These assassins were great martialartists, they killed him to avenge their King's (VeeraPandyan) death. There is a proof that they have escaped from RajaRaja Cholan and they went to China because they have a contact in China. I have 2 of thems name one is 'Parameshwaran' and other guy's name is 'Ravidasan', some years later few of their friends also went to the same place to join them. There is a litrery proof for this incident.

interesting controversy

Agree with your assessment; however, I don't know if it is worth all of this controversy. I've never heard of kalaripayattu and it seems like more of a Dance than anything else. Steelhead 29 June 2005 20:38 (UTC)

Buddhists

Kenneth, why don't you become the founding member of Category:Buddhist Wikipedians? -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:53, July 10, 2005 (UTC)

shuai jiao

chinese wrestling Shuai chiao - has connections to history sites

Bodhidharma

I'm a lapsed Buddhist AND a history buff : )

JFD 21:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I don't suppose you know of the source for giving Bodhidharma's birthdate as 440?

The later sources that identify Bodhidharma as South Indian all take their lead from Tan Lin, whose probably composed his account at roughly the same time that Yang Xuanzhi was composing his. As a first or second generation lineage descendant of Bodhidharma, Tan Lin probably knew Bodhidharma better than Yang, who met him in passing only twice. I could be more conclusive if we knew more about Tan Lin.

And with regard to Persian Buddhists, didn't the Sassanid Empire crack down harshly on Persians who converted from Zoroastrianism to other religions? Or was that just Christianity?

JFD 09:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

So check this out. Dao Xuan's account of Bodhidharma's death is under the entry for Hui Ke, not Bodhidharma. According to Dao Xuan, Bodhidharma need only die before 534, the end of the Northern Wei, when Hui Ke moves from Luoyang to Ye.

The 528 date is only necessary if you insist on dating Bodhidharma's death to the mass execution at Heyin.

Of course, according to the chronology provided by the Zutangji, Bodhidharma must have died sometime after 536.

I'll tie the discrepant dates to the various sources.

JFD 06:00, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I tried to address the conflicts by presenting the information by source rather than redacting them all into a single narrative. The 527 arrival date in China comes from the Zutangji and the Jingde chuandenglu, which is largely taken from the Zutangji, i.e. the last two texts, which means that the primary source for the 528 death date is either Tan Lin or the Xu gaoseng zhuan. I'll put up a bleg for a source on Talk:Bodhidharma.

According to the Broughton (p. 55), Dao Xuan takes the age of Bodhidharma (150) from Yang Xuanzhi, so I'm going to remove the clause that says there's a discrepancy between the two.

JFD 04:50, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Thanks for the correction.

Just a couple of things:

# Which text dates Bodhidharma's death to 528?

# If Dao Xuan takes his figure for Bodhidharma's age from Yang Xuanzhi, shouldn't they give identical ages at death?

I won't do any edits on this stuff until we clear this up.

Thanks.

JFD 04:17, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

Turkic Peoples

Hi, Please check the article revision history again, carefully... Those weren't my additions...! In fact, all I did so far today was throw a couple of his more far fetched sentences out, like the one claiming the Elamites were Turkish!... The whole thing (that someone else added) will need to be checked in more detail, and much of it will probably have to be reincorporated or discarded... Regards, Codex Sinaiticus 07:06, 3 August 2005 (UTC)

Kalarippayattu

Some troll on the Kalarippayattu page is saying we're the same guy.
JFD 01:53, 6 August 2005 (UTC)

Hello again, Kenneth. I saw your edits to Kalarippayattu and just wanted to explain the reasoning behind my own edits.

The earliest reference to kalarippayattu occurs in A Description of the Coasts of East Africa and Malabar in the Beginning of the Sixteenth Century by Duarte Barbosa, indicating that kalarippayattu had already developed by this time.

Phillip B. Zarrilli, a professor at the University of Exeter and one of the few Western authorities on kalaripayattu, estimates that kalarippayattu dates back to at least the 12th century CE.

The historian Elamkulam Kunjan Pillai hypothesizes that kalarippayattu was a product of battles between the Cheras and the Cholas during the 11th century.

For me, the above stuff is key because each of these statements cites its source and is verifiable.

This theory was reiterated by later writers without question. Today, as the concept of the war has been questioned and rejected, the theory of the origin of Kalarippayattu during this war has lost its ground.

This stuff I took out because it needs to be attributed. Which later writers? Who has questioned and rejected the concept of a Chera-Chola war?

As stated earlier, the oldest suggested existence of Kalaripayattu date back to the 13th century CE.

I prefer to let Zarrilli, Pillai, and Barbosa speak for themselves.

The earliest recorded evidence of Kalaripayyattu date from Portuguese descriptions during the latter 16th-17th centuries and becoming less prominent after the British outlawed it during the 18th and 19th centuries CE. It has recently been reinvigorated in the last few decades due to the general worldwide interest in martial arts.

Referring to Portuguese descriptions becomes redundant with the specific citation of Barbosa. As for the rest, I've never encountered claims of a ban under the Raj. Can we get a cite on that?
JFD 06:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

I believe that the citations above actually came from Zarilli's work and he cited other authors. I don't believe that current historians believe that the Chera and Chola war ever existed. As for the redundancy I can rewrite what i've written. The ban under the Raj is in Zarilli's text and I believe that I've read it in other descriptions of kalaripayattu's history. Kennethtennyson

Turkic Peoples Again

Love your work on the page! Thanks for your trouble. Lao Wai 18:49, 15 August 2005 (UTC)

Well I am not sure quite how to take that message, but I think I am going to think positive and say, sure, no worries, a pleasure. It got really screwed up didn't it? Lao Wai 18:26, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

Tatars Images

Hi! I'd added some images that contain Tatar residents in national clothes. But who is a singer? I'm a native Tatarstan resident, but I'd never seen her! --Untifler 17:36, 22 August 2005 (UTC)

• It is important, is she a Tatar really? Sometimes western residents use word Tatar to sign another peoples, such as Siberian peoples. As for Tatar professional singing, it is popular only in Tatarstan, the only place where Tatar singers use to record their CDs--Untifler 21:49, 24 August 2005 (UTC)

Hi! Some information about Crimean Tatars isn't placed in this article. By common points of view, nomade Crimean Scythians and Sarmat people also was ancestors of Crimean Tatars (the admixture of Indoeuropeans could be see in their facial structure) --Untifler 21:22, 30 August 2005 (UTC)

Kalarippayattu

I've been jumping on the use of weasel words in the "History" section of the Kalarippayattu article, because contributors were attributing their claims to "historians," "ancient references" and "historical texts" so "This theory was reiterated by later writers without question. Today, as the concept of the war has been questioned and rejected, the theory of the origin of Kalarippayattu during this war has lost its ground." raised red flags for me. One editor cited a commercial kalarippayattu website as "modern historians".

Can we get names for the major scholars on both sides of the debate about whether there was an 11th century Chera/Chola war?

Regarding the ban under the Raj in Zarrilli's text, is that from his online articles or his book? Because in his online articles, I only found mention of a decline in the 19th century under British colonial rule, not a ban.

Speaking for myself, I wouldn't bother making the case that Kalarippayattu was not extant before the 11th century. I would shift the burden of proof on to those trying to argue that it was by demanding that they cite their sources.--JFD 16:10, 20 July 2006 (UTC)

P.S. Why do you italicize Pillai's name?--JFD 14:11, 22 July 2006 (UTC)

I just finished Zarrilli's book. I might have missed it, but I could find no reference to historians rejecting the concept of an 11th century Chera-Chola war. The impression I got was that Zarrilli concurs with Pillai that kp's origins lie in just such a war.

Again, I might have missed it but there was no mention of a ban under the Raj either. The closest Zarrilli comes to that is "In southern Kerala where there was active suppression of the Nayars, by the mid 1950s Chirakkal T. Sreedharan Nayar notes, the unique southern dronampalli style was virtually non-existent." And even there he's referring only to the style of Nayars in southern Kerala, not to the northern style or the Tamil style(s) which, after reading Zarrilli, I think ought to be considered a separate martial art altogether.

Zarilli isn't a historian, so he might have missed the rejection of the Chera-Chola war but, in a book on kalarippayattu, he certainly would have mentioned a colonial ban. You're the PhD, so you're going to be more aware of other sources than I, but for the time being I'm going to take them out of the article.

JFD 01:03, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Indian martial arts

Calm down, okay?

JFD 14:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In future, if you want to make any edits regarding the refutation of the Bodhidharma legend, I would appreciate it if you suggested it to me first on my Talk Page and let me do the actual editing. With all due respect, I'm more familiar with the authors in question.

Also, I think it would help you if you were as specific as possible about

• what you disagree with in the article
• suggesting solutions

For me, it was the organization website stuff and the solution I suggested was relying primarily on third-party sources.
JFD 13:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

So ask him to produce his source. You have every right as a Wikipedian.

Or, better yet, add your own sourced material.

JFD 21:22, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

"The Silk Road: Globalization in Antiquity" JFD 21:29, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

If my languages were better, I would.

However, you might be interested to know that next year the University of Hawai'i Press is publishing The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar. Here is a paper he wrote on the Shaolin Monastery Stele and here is a Portuguese (no, I don't know why there's no English) translation of another paper he wrote on Shaolin.

And, just for laughs.

JFD 21:42, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

The "cite book" template has a field for quotes:

<ref>
{{cite book
| last =
| first =
| authorlink =
| coauthors =
| year =
| title =
| publisher =
| location =
| id =
| quote =
}}
</ref>

But otherwise you have to do it the old fashioned way:

<ref>
{{cite news
| first=Christopher
| last=Wren
| url=http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?sec=travel&res=9B06E7D71338F932A2575AC0A965948260
| title=Of Monks and Martial Arts
| work=The New York Times
| publisher=The New York Times Company
| date=1983-09-11
| accessdate=2006-08-30}}
"The introduction of fighting skills at Shaolin Monastery has been attributed in legend to the Indian monk Bodhidharma, who went to the monastery in 527, three decades after it was founded by Batuo, another Indian monk.…Actually, the ancient martial arts probably originated even earlier as Buddhist monks learned to fend off brigands and other predators."
</ref>

JFD 22:26, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I actually think that, as China and India grow more powerful, conflict between them becomes more likely than less.

With the exception of Taiwan, Beijing's "peaceful rise" rhetoric has been reflected in its actions, but there's a lot of grassroots nationalism among the Chinese as well, but it finds expression only on certain specific issues, e.g. Taiwan, Yasukuni, Japanese textbooks.

Hindutva seems much more unpredictable and therefore much more destabilizing. Instead of sticking to old warhorses like Kashmir and the Masjid al-Babri, they keep finding new issues to stick their nose in. I do understand why you're so sensitive about Hindutvadi given that intimidation of scholars is a favorite tactic of theirs, one which they employ internationally (California, Encarta) as well as domestically (Bhandarkar).

With Chinese nationalists, at least you know they're on Beijing's leash.

JFD 22:48, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the barnstar, Kenneth!
By the way, have you read this article?
JFD 00:35, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, India, unlike China, does have a vibrant civil society. The question is whether the vibrancy of Indian civil society can withstand the rise of Indian nationalism.

Keep in mind that Congress beat BJP in the last national elections, and this was after a solid decade of economic growth under BJP rule (though the growth was the result of Manmohan Singh's economic reforms as Finance Minister in the early 90s).

The problem is that a state's relative rise in power worries other states and historically tends to destabilize the international system and lead to conflict. Beijing, for its many flaws, has demonstrated its awareness of this and its "peaceful rise" rhetoric seems tailor-made to address these concerns. New Delhi has yet to show the same kind of awareness, particularly under a BJP government.

JFD 03:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Indian martial arts

Actually, Kenneth, I was the one who added the sentence about the play on the life of Bodhidharma, the idea being that, even within India, there is disagreement, with partisans of different Indian martial arts each claiming that theirs is the art that the entire East Asian martial arts tradition comes from.

Also, a close reader will recognize the quality of the sources cited for each claim.
JFD 16:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I heard about the debate, but didn't really follow it. I take it it was a big deal out in Cali?

Also, when people see the word "play," just like when they see the word "novel," they know it's fictional.
JFD 22:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please do not remove entire sections from Indian Nationalism...

..without dicsussing. Please respect the integrity of pages.

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