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July 20

Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?

Look at Musik im Bauch. In the very opening words, it says Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Why is the parenthetical component not italicized? What's the reason for such a rule? What's the rationale? I edited the article so that the phrase/title "Music in the Belly" was italicized. And I was told that the Misplaced Pages rule is that it not be italicized. The German title should be italicized; but the English translation title, not. Huh? Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 01:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

That's a good question. Check out Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), in which both the German title and its English translation are italicized. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 01:39, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

What German title? Do you mean "Sinfonia eroica"? That's Italian. -- Jack of Oz 07:07, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Good point. Did it even have a German title? ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 10:30, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Not apart from de:3. Sinfonie (Beethoven). -- Jack of Oz 20:03, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Manual of Style/Titles#Translations.—Wavelength (talk) 01:49, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

(1) So is the English translation italics or not italics? (2) What was the relevance of the second link (Microcontent: How to Write Headlines, Page Titles, and Subject Lines)? I didn't understand that. Did I miss something? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:18, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

It depends on whether the English translation is also used as a title. It's easier with books, movies and other stuff that use words and have posters/covers/whatever. Music's a universal language, but looking at published sheet music or album track listings might find your answer. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:03, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

Looks like part of the sheet music's title to me. InedibleHulk (talk) 05:09, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

(1) As the examples show, if a work is well known by an English title, then the English title has normal formatting for titles (italics and applicable capitals); otherwise, the English translation is without special formatting (no italics) and in sentence case. (2) Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long. A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better.

—Wavelength (talk) 05:55, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

As to your second point -- Your heading ("Do we use italics or not, when a foreign language title also includes parenthetically an English translation?") is unnecessarily long. A shorter heading ("Title translations in italics") is better. -- nah. There was some ridiculous brouhaha about this topic over at another Help Desk. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:17, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

• The purpose of the let the reader know the phrase is foreign, even if it appears possibly English. No vote means "Don't vote" in Spanish, and something else in English. In Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly), the italicized part is a mere translation, obviously English, and not part of the original author's title. In Symphony No. 3 (Beethoven), Beethoven's name is being treated as part of the entire title, it is not a translation, although there are other ways of handling that, such as Beethoven's Symphony No. 3, "Eroica" μηδείς (talk) 05:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

I say the unitalicized bit is obviously English, and Stanford says the title is Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41. Misplaced Pages's article title is just the uniform title, which also covers Tierkreis  : für Spieluhren ; Musik im Bauch. Our article is more about the live music than the recording, so if I ran this zoo, I'd italicize the English/French parenthetical in English/French Misplaced Pages, but not Norwegian Misplaced Pages. (Norwegian Misplaced Pages doesn't even mention it, anyway, and French Misplaced Pages suggests ours instead.) InedibleHulk (talk) 09:40, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

In the Musik im Bauch = Music in the belly = Musique dans le ventre : für 6 Schlagzeuger und Spieluhren : 1975, Werk Nr. 41 case, if you were to leave only the English unitalicized, it would have the effect of implying some weird emphasis on the English name. Italics are used for various purposes, and in that example the emphatic lack of italics would be running at the cross purpose of using italics for titles. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Now I'm confused, too. All good, though. InedibleHulk (talk) 20:04, July 20, 2016 (UTC)

Italics are used to show emphasis: "I don't care what your dog does to your daughter, but if he bites my daughter, I'll have the sheriff put him down." Or to indicate a phrase is not in English no vote in Spanish literally means "Don't (you singular) vote", which is not what it means in English. Or it can be used to indicate the title of certain works, including the names of novels: Catch 22 vs "a catch 22" situation. Given its multipurpose nature, sometimes italicizing can be confusing, and when we have a list of titles, including the English translation, as well as those in other foreign languages, we have to realize that not italicizing the English to the exclusion of the other languages in the title, just because it's English and doesn't normally need to be emphasized would actually imply emphasis, as opposed to nativeness. This is why publishers hire editors. For the first example in most contexts I'd've given Musik im Bauch ("Music in the Belly"). μηδείς (talk) 05:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

There's a common convention in editing and typesetting that when a passage, which would normally be in roman with a section of italics for distinction or emphasis, is itself rendered overall into italic for whatever reason, the italic section is then rendered into roman in order to retain its distinctiveness.

In this instance I would take the "normal" form of this title to be the German one, which would make it

Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly). Since we are translating this into English and conventionally use italics for foreign text, this means the English has to change from italic to roman: i.e.

Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly).

However, if the House style was to render all titles in italic, this would require a second reversal, giving

Musik im Bauch (Music in the Belly) once more. Such judgements always have to be taken in the context of the House style of the publication (here Misplaced Pages), because different and incompatible House styles are all correct within themselves, but should not be mixed as this leads to inconsistency and confusion (conscious or unconscious) on the part of the readers.

Many larger publishers issue House style guides for internal use, while smaller ones often decide to follow those of the Oxford University Press (which are more extensive than most) because OUP publishes and sells them, as well as other authoritative Writing, Editing and Grammar guides which are of course all conveniently compatible. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 16:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks, all. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 03:23, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

July 21

Maklergalgen

Does Maklergalgen (using italics for emphasis, a la Spanish no vote) have a "specific" meaning in German, a meaning that would be retained when discussing the subject in another language? It's apparently a real estate sign, but I'm not sure if it's just an ordinary term for real estate signs, or if it's a special, well-defined class of items. This arises from Commons:Category:Maklergalgen, a newly created category of nothing but real estate signs; Commons policy says that categories should be named in English, but an exception is of course made for proper names, biological taxa and names for which the non-English name is most commonly used in the English language (or there is no evidence of usage of an English-language version). It looks like someone was ignorant and created this category, but I don't want to delete it as a duplicate if Maklergalgen is normally used for this concept in English-language sources. Nyttend (talk) 12:55, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

You could make a new sub - category "Hanging signs" in category "Real estate signs". 86.177.9.65 (talk) 14:14, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh, that German wit! According to Google Translate, Maklergalgen literally means "agents gallows". But it appears that its real meaning is real estate signs, which often look like gallows. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 14:37, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I (native speaker) had not known this word until I read it above. My usual German dictionaries do not list it. So it is a neologism coined after, say, 2005, and I had to look up the picture gallery to see what is meant. Please rename the category to "hanging signs" or whatever, which will be easier to understand. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:08, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Oh my goodness! That same user also created recently Commons:Category:Snackwelle and I have to admit for the second time that I as a native German speaker newer saw that German word and had no idea what it meant until I saw the picture gallery (a snack wave). Left at your discretion. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 19:29, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Same here – both words seem utterly bogus to me. Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Anyone here who speaks German natively, before concluding it's bogus, google "Maklergalgen" and see if the German-language references to it seem real or not. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 20:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I probably spoke too rashly. Judging by the google hits, both "Maklergalgen" and "Snackwelle" seem to be examples of those kinds of everyday objects that everybody is familiar with somehow but few people ever actively think about enough to need a word for, except for people in the specialist trade that produces them. Both seem to actually be called that in the industries involved. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Well no, there are well-formed words that are nevertheless on the bogus side in terms of lexicality, such as Totenhebel or Flunderschrei (though one can imagine contrived situations where both might be applied), but Fut.Perf is correct: Snackwelle and Maklergalgen do exist in the language of their industries, and I was reminded of the notorious Warentrenner (English: checkout divider), an everyday item which many people still wouldn't know what to call (Max Goldt suggested "Warenabtrennhölzchen", see Zwiebelfisch). ---Sluzzelin talk 09:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

posting by banned user removed. – Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:35, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

No, the Umlaut is not just there for fun (it’s basically a superscript e), so if you don’t have the correct letter on your keyboard, you should spell that word toeten. For Toten- see this Wiktionary entry. My guess is that Sluzzelin made those two examples up on the spot to demonstrate a point: namely that it is possible, in German, to make up "new" words by combining existing ones, but not all of them make much sense, and even if they do, they’re not necessarily in common use. This is why, while Snackwelle is theoretically a valid German word, most people (like me) might not understand right away what it’s supposed to mean.

Btw, @Sluzzelin: I just love Kassentoblerone ;o) Rgds ✦ _hugarheimur 18:09, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Yep, first bogus compounds I could come up with returning zero google hits ... and though I live in the land of Toblerone and buy groceries several times a week, and though it sounds natural enough, I hadn't been familiar at all with Kassentoblerone. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I only ever knew one guy who actually used the term. He’s from Freiburg (the German one). No idea where he picked it up, though. Greetings from the Land of the (Original) Wibele – ✦ _hugarheimur 19:39, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Aber, was passiert mit den Waldschluchtsbeeren? μηδείς (talk) 22:03, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Sie verlieren ihren Fugenlaut und schluchzen dennoch weiter. ---Sluzzelin talk 03:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Ach! Ich wusste dass wir das Wort diskutiert hatten. Entschuldige mir fuers Ergebnis vergessen haben. Es bleibt jedoch die Frage des Schiksal der Waldschluchtbeeren. Wir haben auch das Wort <<Halbschwul>> "Bisexueller" als Beispiel dieses Phaenomen. μηδείς (talk) 03:43, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Sie werden von den Waldschluchtbären gefressen :o) Cheers ✦ _hugarheimur 07:16, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

• Off on a bit of a tangent, but not too much of a wild potato chase - a recent addition to my vocabulary. Last weekend bought a new bicycle tyre made by a German company that claimed to be "unplattbar". The tyre, not the company, that is. In the small print it explains that it's not possible to guarantee that it will never get a flat, but it will protect "gegen die typisch Pannenteufel'. The English version says that it offers protection "against typical tyre wreckers such as glass, flints or metal shards". I know what I will be calling these devils in future. --Shirt58 (talk) 05:42, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

uncertain house arrest

I am not clear about the meaning of "uncertain house arrest" in the following context. Would you clarify it for me? "Another is the odyssey of the airmen whose plane landed safely in Vladivostok (against Doolittle's orders). The Russians were supposedly U.S. allies. But months of black bread, vodka, boredom and uncertain house arrest lay ahead for the Americans." ( "'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry ) Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.221.42 (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

See house arrest. It means that you are restricted by the authorities from leaving your own domicile. --Jayron32 14:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Uncertain as to whether they actually were under house arrest? Uncertain as to how long it would go on for? They were foreign nationals in a high security area during a time of war - so Soviet authorities would have been reluctant to give them any liberty, even though they were technically allies. Unfortunately, it is uncertain what the writer actually meant by that phrase. Wymspen (talk) 15:32, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

In the context, I would take it to mean that sometimes they were more strictly confined, and sometimes less so, in an unpredictable fashion. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 16:41, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I would not interpret it that way. "Uncertain" seems an odd word to use for that meaning, rather than "intermittent" or something along those lines. I would guess that it means that the future duration of their house arrest was unknown to them, but I agree that the meaning is not at all clear from the context. CodeTalker (talk) 20:10, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I would take it as a stylized way of saying actual house arrest, but with no certainty that they would be released or even executed. Like an "uncertain prognosis". The prognosis itself is not uncertain, but the patient and his caregivers are. μηδείς (talk) 23:42, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Per Medeis, uncertain is being used as a synonym for indefinite here: no understanding of the reasons for, or especially the duration of, or the conditions of release from, said house arrest. --Jayron32 01:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I was actually going to use the word "indefinite". And it should be noted that "months of black bread, vodka, boredom" describes most of the year for most Russians throughout the last millennium. μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I would have interpreted as "the Americans were in for certain house arrest" (in the same way that "certain" is used as in "hiding out meant certain trouble" or "the test set me up for certain anxiety"), but with the meaning reversed. 27.115.113.102 (talk) 01:53, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it means "under house arrest in a state of uncertainty", i.e. a situation where the airmen were not sure whether and when they were going to be released or tried or sent somewhere else. It describes their mental state rather than the attributes of the arrest as such. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, Palace Guard, that was my point. The uncertainty was that of the detainees themselves. μηδείς (talk) 21:57, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 22

the damage was much greater than it was

What does "the damage was much greater than it was" mean here? Thank you. "Both sides made exaggerated claims: The Americans said the damage was much greater than it was and that none of the planes had been lost (not true). The Japanese said the Americans had targeted civilians (not true, but there were civilian casualties) and that several planes had been shot down (not true)." (from " 'Target Tokyo' brings a well-known WWII story back to life" by Tony Perry) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.180.11 (talk) 09:04, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Here the phrase "much greater than" means "much more extensive than". So the phrase can be paraphrased to mean

The Americans said the damage was much more extensive than it (actually) was

It may help the OP to note that "the Americans said" is part of the comparison - i.e. "what the Americans said the damage was" > " was". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 09:43, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

In other words, the Americans exaggerated the amount of damage, while the Japanese falsely claimed that the Americans went after civilians. This would have been simpler had the author included an additional "that", i.e. "The Americans said that the damage..." Nyttend (talk) 13:37, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

"I never said half the things I said." -- Yogi Berra.

←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 16:24, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

This look like a case of sloppy writing. The author leaves to the reader to guess the whole meaning of the sentence. I suppose he meant "the damage was much greater than it was ". Hofhof (talk) 13:18, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Alina

What does Alina mean. Some IPs are inserting un-sourced meanings. --Rainbow Archer (talk) 16:31, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The greek word for light is either φως (phos, c.f. "photo") meaning "the bright stuff that lets you see" or ελαφρός (elaphros, c.f. "elevate") meaning "not heavy". I suppose the second definition may sound similar to Alina, but as far as I can find, there are no greek words meaning "light" terribly close to the name Alina, and unless we have a high quality etymology, we shouldn't make claims to origins based on tenuous sound similarities. --Jayron32 19:49, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

July 23

–age

Does the French suffix –age, as in language and marriage and outrage, have a Latin form, or is it of later coinage? —Tamfang (talk) 00:35, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

See wikt:-age#Etymology_3 (and wikt:langage and wikt:mariage for spelling).

—Wavelength (talk) 00:45, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 00:50, 23 July 2016 (UTC) and 01:00, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Why shouldn't I use English words to illustrate a French morpheme? —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

-aticus, (-aticum/-atica) as in French fromage "cheese" < Latin, formaticum "formed" http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=fromage μηδείς (talk) 03:26, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Frottage is a good word. -- Jack of Oz 09:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. —Tamfang (talk) 05:45, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Advance Australia Fair

How should the title of the Australian national anthem, "Advance Australia Fair", be parsed?

1. Is "fair" a post-modifier, or is it a noun?
2. Is the title as a whole supposed to be understood as:

• Advance Australia fair
• Advance_{(transitive verb)} (Australia fair)_(object)
• (Australia fair) advance

or should it be understood some other way? --72.78.149.18 (talk) 16:19, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

1. It's an adjective, not a noun.

2. In the antepenultimate line of each verse, at least ("In history's page, let every stage / Advance Australia Fair", "With courage let us all combine / To Advance Australia Fair"), it seems to be transitive verb + object.

— Deor (talk) 19:11, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Is appearance of white hair in early age belongs to psychological troubles?

July 24

'College' for ages 3–18?

How atypical is the use of 'college' in the name of this British school: St. Anthony's College, Mijas? I used to think that 'college' in English always referred to 'tertiary education', even in British English. --31.4.138.251 (talk) 12:13, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It's unusual but not unique, there are plenty of "colleges" who are "schools". Personally I've only really come across them as private, fee-paying schools. See Dulwich College as an example. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

And it is the standard term for 6th form (16-18 years old), which is still secondary. From College#United_Kingdom:

In the United Kingdom, "college" can refer to either sixth form in the context of secondary education, or a constituent part of a university in the context of higher education.

Carbon Caryatid (talk) 14:23, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

You forgot further education colleges which offer mainly vocational courses to those who have left school. I agree with User:TammyMoet that British schools that call themselves colleges are generally fee-paying independent schools: see Brighton College, Trent College, Ardingly College, Ratcliffe College and of course Eton College (although the last is 14-18 only). Alansplodge (talk) 14:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, some preparatory schools call themselves "colleges". I've found Kew College which only takes pupils up to the age of 11. Thincat (talk) 15:02, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Further concurrence with Tammy and Alan: my own secondary (11-18) school was/is called Kent College, and was a 'public' school in being part of the Headmasters' Conference, though a significant proportion of its pupils received free tuition through the government's Direct Grant system. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.123.26.60 (talk) 18:29, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

French to English Wiki article creation

Is there a wikiproject that works on translating French wiki article to English or place to put translation requests?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 15:57, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

See Misplaced Pages:Pages needing translation into English.—Wavelength (talk) 16:41, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

That one is more for articles that are already on en.wiki but aren't in English. There is a WikiProject for this, but I don't know how active it is: Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Intertranswiki/French. There is also Misplaced Pages:Translation for other options on how to get an article translated. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:42, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

Category:Misplaced Pages translation contains Category:Articles needing translation from French Misplaced Pages.

—Wavelength (talk) 17:51, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

English Intensifiers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

► Non-speculative reference information follows. See reference desk for context:

The use of degree (of intensifier) is more of a segregation of type than a scale of variation. Confer three degrees of a burn -- while a burn can be categorized in one of three degrees, there is variability within degrees. This dissertation might be of interest: "Intensifiers in current English" (PDF). See also: Osgood's semantic differential. -- preceding comment added by an editor who believes that IPs are people too 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:98E7:59EE:3480:3C03 (talk) 18:47, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

If you are going to be contrary, the OP (I don't know or care whether he's an IP WP:COMPETENCE) has asked for us ("do we see") to speculate on the future development of English. He also seems to have confused adjective, most of which have comparatives and superlatives; with intensifiers, which do not. There is no sequence supe, super, supest; or rathe, rather, rathest.

So whatever you like, the OP should follow the guidelines and express himself clearly, or even say, "am I using the right words here" and give an example of what he means. μηδείς (talk) 03:33, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Parenthetical phrases

When is a parenthetical phrase not parenthetical?

Parenthesis (rhetoric) says: "The parenthesis could be left out and still form grammatically correct text".

Consider this sentence I wrote recently:

• The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts, who would not otherwise have considered making the journey, did so.

Leaving out the bit enclosed in commas leaves us with:

• The inordinate delay meant that large numbers of people from distant parts did so.

A reader would now be asking: "Did what?", because the sense of the sentence relies absolutely on the bit between the commas, but that can allegedly be left out without risk. I mean, it's still a valid sentence, but it's lacking some important information to make it make sense. So is this really parenthetical after all? -- Jack of Oz 23:01, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

It is clearly not parenthetical at all - it contains information without which the main clause does not make sense. Wymspen (talk) 12:42, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

There's nothing ungrammatical about the sentence after the stuff between the commas is removed, so that stuff is indeed parenthetical (it "could be left out and still form grammatically correct text") in the syntactic sense. I think that you (and Wymspen) are confusing grammar with logic, Jack. Deor (talk) 20:04, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 25

Sand Fire

We have an article called Sand Fire. That is the name of the fire according to reliable sources. Isn't one of the understandings of that word combination that sand is burning? Shouldn't we correct that misunderstanding, in the article? At this source I find "Fighting the fire -- named for the area's Sand Canyon -- is a challenge, said Nathan Judy, fire information officer..." I am arguing that that language should be included. I think this is a question involving language. Bus stop (talk) 04:44, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"Sand Fire" means "Sand Canyon Fire" in about the same way that "pommes frites" means "pommes de terre frites".

—Wavelength (talk) 04:57, 25 July 2016 (UTC) and 04:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC) and 05:23, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Duckduckgo has search results for "sand canyon fire".

—Wavelength (talk) 05:28, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

WP:MOSNAME says that the name of the article should be the name used in the majority of reliable sources. --ColinFine (talk) 09:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The name of the article can be addressed but that isn't what my question is about. My question concerns advising the reader that sand is not on fire in this event. Bus stop (talk) 10:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Doesn't the lead paragraph make this perfectly clear? If not, then how would you suggest that we improve it? Dbfirs 14:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes, it is fine, now. Bus stop (talk) 14:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm glad the article was improved, but I think we can assume that our readers will know a few non-culturally-specific facts about the world, such as the fact that sand does not burn. I don't think the article was ever "misleading" about that. --Trovatore (talk) 20:05, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I thought that sand burned. Or at least I considered that possibility. I first saw news stories about it on Google News a couple of days ago. I wondered if Misplaced Pages had an article on the topic. I began looking at news stories to clear up what I found to be a slight question in my mind. It crossed my mind that perhaps these were Oil sands. I may not be typical of all readers. But, on the assumption that I am typical of all readers, I wished the article to speak to those with a similar question in their minds. Bus stop (talk) 22:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I just "researched" it: oil sands can't burn. Bus stop (talk) 22:55, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

How to Layout

Someone advised me to give a bit of other characters information (in the book that I'm writing) so that an idea is gained of individuals, e.g., who and how they are, and what they are about… I've done it the following way:

Name of the person:

• Date of Birth:

• Birthplace:

• Citizen of:

• _________ (Single/Married)

• Mother/Father of ___ children: ___ Male and ___ Female

I can't put more than this at the moment, I won't see them in the near future either so, what do you guys say? Is it satisfying/sufficient? Shall I put it in a sentence or do it like the way I stated...?

Apostle (talk) 04:56, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

You mean, instead of sentences, you'll just fill in a form? The idea of giving information I think is to personalize characters. I think the reader tends to develop feelings for the characters when their date of birth, birthplace, citizenship, marital status, and the children they may have, are written about in a way that draws the reader into the story. Bus stop (talk) 05:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure I understand the question. The information you listed is rather superficial; unless the information is in some way important to the story, what you have so far is rather uninteresting. I'd be more interested in knowing the relationships among the characters, their personalities, their moralities and worldviews, what they want, what drives them to do what they do, their flaws, their secrets, etc. If you want to give the characters some concreteness, maybe you can describe their physiques, appearance, ethnic backgrounds, cultural identities, family backgrounds, occupations, interests, and things like that. --72.78.149.18 (talk) 05:41, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

"It hasn't almost changed", or "it almost hasn't changed": Are both correct?

185.3.144.4 (talk) 07:10, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Neither sounds right. Can we have the preceding sentences for context? 86.136.177.130 (talk) 09:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Both are grammatical. Both are meaningful. Neither sounds like something that would often be said. What is your intended meaning? --ColinFine (talk) 09:36, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I might use "it almost hasn't changed", say in the sentence, "Seeing how unarmed blacks are shot by police officers, I am reminded of the days of lynching, it almost hasn't changed at all since then."

But "it hasn't almost changed" could mean it changed a lot or not at all, so isn't very useful. However, I am reminded of the BR English "I don't half fancy her", which has the same problem, potentially meaning he fancies her in any amount other than "half", but was used anyway. StuRat (talk) 14:34, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Can the expression "surrender you" mean: "give you up", and not only "extradite you"?

185.3.144.4 (talk) 07:14, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Yes. See "Surrender Dorothy". Tevildo (talk) 08:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I think extradition is a form of giving you up. Bus stop (talk) 14:31, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Extradition has a specific meaning; essentially the transfer (of a person) from one legal authority to another (usually foreign) one. 2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:16, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

They'll knock me for six

In Crime and Punishment, part 2 chapter 1, Raskolnikov says "they'll knock me for six." This is the Penguin Classics translation by David McDuff. Can anyone with access to and understanding of the original Russian give me a literal translation of what Raskolnikov actually says there? This is an idiom from cricket, and I'd be surprised if Dostoevsky was familiar with the game, so it seems more likely that it's an idiomatic translation by McDuff. Thanks, --Viennese Waltz 14:06, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Could you point out where exactly in s:Crime and Punishment/Part II/Chapter I? Then it will be easy to find it in s:ru:Преступление и наказание (Достоевский)/Часть II/Глава I. --Pp.paul.4 (talk) 17:12, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Wikisource has that paragraph as "No, it's too much for me . . ." he thought. His legs shook. "From fear," he muttered. His head swam and ached with fever. "It's a trick! They want to decoy me there and confound me over everything," he mused, as he went out on to the stairs—"the worst of it is I'm almost light-headed . . . I may blurt out something stupid . . ."

The Penguin text is at https://books.google.com/books?id=ROi0n7azQwUC&pg=PT147&dq=%22crime+and+punishment%22+%22they%27ll+knock+me+for+six.%22 Naraht (talk) 17:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Bedspreads, quilts, duvets, duvet covers, comforters, comforter covers, coverlets, etc.

I am confused by all these terms. Some are presumably synonyms and others are not. I am guessing they vary by if they hang down the side of the bed, if they go all the way to the top of the bed, if they are machine washable, and whether you sleep with them over you or they are purely decorative, but I don't know all the details. If the meaning varies, I would like the US English meanings.

I found this article that describes the difference between a comforter and a duvet/duvet cover. Apparently the comforter is one machine-washable piece while the duvet and cover is like a pillow and pillowcase, where you only wash the cover. I'm not sure if either is supposed to hang down the sides of the bed. But Sears sells "comforter covers", which seems at odds with that definition: . StuRat (talk) 14:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This may be helpful. As may This. As may This (with pictures!). I found these and many more using Google and typing the phrase "bedding glossary" into it. It's also important to remember that language is not always universal and precise; what something is called in one dialect may be slightly different in others, so you may not always get the same exact definition from every source. --Jayron32 16:53, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

What confuses me is the word "counterpane", as far as I can tell it just means "a kind of quilt/duvet with old fashioned decorations", and yet much seems to be made in some quarters in the UK about the progress from counterpanes to duvets. What, really, is so different about counterpanes to modern quilts apart from having a name that sounds like it should be part of a window? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 18:09, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

To add to the confusion: WP's Counterpane (bedding) is a redirect to quilt -- but dictionaries define it as a bedspread which WP redirects to Bedding. See also Wiktionary: counterpane. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:58E2:3708:C2A3:B874 (talk) 18:39, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

And then there is the eiderdown. I grew up (in a house with no central heating) sleeping under a sheet, a blanket, an eiderdown and a bedspread. Some people I knew might have called the eiderdown a quilt, and the bedspread a counterpane. There were no duvets in the UK then (when they first appeared they were called continental quilts) - and a comforter was a warm scarf. Wymspen (talk) 20:01, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Agree with that. An eiderdown is a quilt (the same as those you see in American films) and a bedspread or counterpane is a sort of cover for all the underlying layers, generally made from a soft but heavy cotton fabric called candlewick which you can still buy. Confusingly, I believe some people also called a very thin type of quilt "a counterpane". I first saw a "continental quilt" (duvet) in the 1980s. Alansplodge (talk) 21:30, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

The name "eiderdown" implies it's full of duck feathers. The words "pane" and "spread" imply no filling at all. 86.176.81.152 (talk) 21:48, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Boys' Basketball

Hi again, I've got another possessive question! Normally, I believe if you're talking about a basketball tournament for boys, it'd be "the boys' basketball tournament". (Similarly it'd be "the men's tournament" not "the men tournament".) But I'm frequently seeing it without the possessive on article titles and "official websites".

With Indiana High School Boys Basketball Tournament and New York State Public High School Athletic Association Boys Basketball Championships is the use of Boys correct or should it be Boys' ? Should the official name be preserved as a proper name? - Reidgreg (talk) 19:54, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

This is one of my peeves. I think it's mostly laziness. People can't remember where to put the apostrophe (before or after the s), so they just leave it out. It's sort of the flip side of the greengrocers' apostrophe.

This may be on the way to becoming standard. I think we should try to stop that from happening. --Trovatore (talk) 19:59, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

How can we stop it? -Can't find article for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Apostrophy's. --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:1060:FB70:9FFD:8F0F (talk) 20:32, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

I think it's just evolution of usage. Check out the history of Boys Town, Nebraska. ←Baseball Bugs carrots→ 21:50, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

In "Boys Basketball Tournament", 'boys' is not a plural, but a possessive. If it were a men's league, it would read "Mens Basketball Tournament". They have simply left the apostrophe off, for esthetic reasons. It happens frequently in official names, as well as in headlines and signage: LADIES ROOM, MENS ROOM. In standard text, the apostrophe would probably be added back in. This is not a written rule, just a styles policy that some companies would choose to follow. —Stephen (talk) 22:21, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

Of course it's plural, and also possessive. If it were single and possessive, with the apostrophe left off, it'd be "Mans Room" or "Ladys Room". -- Jack of Oz 22:43, 25 July 2016 (UTC)

July 26

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