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Revision as of 13:38, 6 August 2016 editCollect (talk \| contribs)Extended confirmed users, Pending changes reviewers47,160 edits commenting out material from topic banned editor← Previous edit		Revision as of 15:41, 6 August 2016 edit undoLanderman56 (talk \| contribs)339 edits →Lead sentence part two Next edit →
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	<!-- topic banned editor This is a rehash of the above discussion. Your suggestion is inaccurate. He has never cited IQ tests or any source of proof for his comments. He was also specific in who he described as less intelligent which is black westerners. These were simply Socially and scientifically rejected comments. Did he make a mistake? I think he admitted it and the article does accurately reflect that fact.--> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)</span></small>--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->		<!-- topic banned editor This is a rehash of the above discussion. Your suggestion is inaccurate. He has never cited IQ tests or any source of proof for his comments. He was also specific in who he described as less intelligent which is black westerners. These were simply Socially and scientifically rejected comments. Did he make a mistake? I think he admitted it and the article does accurately reflect that fact.--> <!-- Template:Unsigned --><small><span class="autosigned">— Preceding ] comment added by ] (] • ]) 13:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)</span></small>--> <!--Autosigned by SineBot-->


			This is a rehash of the above discussion. Your suggestion is inaccurate. He has never cited IQ tests or any source of proof for his comments. He was also specific in who he described as less intelligent which is black westerners. These were simply Socially and scientifically rejected comments. Did he make a mistake? I think he admitted it and the article should accurately reflect that fact

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Lead section

It looks like the comment preceding his resignation is a contentious topic, but can't we at least agree that that last sentence doesn't belong in the lead section? It looks like it's a definite case of undue weight, and just because the news received digital coverage doesn't mean that it takes precedent over the coverage for the long and distinguished career. (Someone reading this would presumably be familiar with the subject matter, so no need to list things out.) Unfortunately there was no Guardian or Associated Press to digitally pick up many of these stories when they broke, so the coverage is in print. The body of the article still goes over these comments. Dreambeaver(talk) 21:08, 7 September 2012 (UTC)

It appears he's still very much the chancellor of coldspring harbor

He did retire publicly around the 2007 controversy, but I remember him being reinstated soon thereafter. He is still listed as chacnellor emeritus to this day. http://www.cshl.edu/gradschool/Non-Research-Faculty/james-d-watson 168.7.235.141 (talk) 20:06, 11 January 2013 (UTC)bdg

"Emeritus" means former. Javaweb (talk) 05:52, 4 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb

"Emeritus" means out of merit CharlesKiddell (talk) 21:12, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Eugenics Views

I see nothing in this bio that covers the following -

In May of 1973, just four month after the U.S. Supreme Court legalized abortion, James Watson (who won a Nobel prize for his work in discovering the double helix design of DNA) expressed his views. Writing in Prism, a publication of the American Medical Association, Watson stated, "If a child were noI t declared alive until three days after birth, then all parents could be allowed the choice only a few are given under the present system. The doctor could allow the child to die if the parents so choose and save a lot of misery and suffering. I believe this is the only rational, compassionate attitude to have." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.79.96.4 (talk) 06:27, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Did you read the article or just an excerpt on a web site?

Quotes must be in context. Was he talking about ALL babies, anyone with disabilities, or just those born with terminal conditions destined to live for weeks in agony and then die? In that case, his article was advocating euthanasia not eugenics. If his views were mentioned without distorting his meaning and in context directly taken from the actual publication, it is a fine addition. However, depending on a website quoting the article as a source is a problem. Polemic websites manufacture outrage by quoting out of context to promote their worldview all the time.

--Javaweb (talk) 14:33, 4 August 2013 (UTC)Javaweb

The Nobel

He's just another jerk who got the Nobel. God, what else is new. It'd be great that after these people won their "prize" everybody just quit paying attention. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.151.233 (talk) 00:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

What was this? Completely irrelevant rant. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dc2467 (talk • contribs) 22:41, 9 December 2014 (UTC)

16% African?

There was some assertion about genetic testing showing that "James Watson is 16% Black": http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/10/watsons-black-dna-ultimate-irony/?_r=0 can that be confirmed and should it be worked into the article? --41.150.200.56 (talk) 12:59, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

What difference would it make? If he's 16% African, then he's 84% not-African. His African genetic component only comprises a minor fraction of his whole genome. Also keep in mind that, as obnoxious as he tends to be, he doesn't hold the position that, without exception, nowhere in the {Black, Female, Obese} population can there be found individuals of high intelligence. Any large population of humans is going to have a spectral distribution of intellectual abilities. If Watson is 16% Black, then even in his own estimation there's a finite probability that he's partially descended from a Negro-genius.

Visible evidence shows that any non-European percentage is much less than 16%. It would have to be about 1% to be invisible at a glance. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.84.93.132 (talk) 11:02, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

The 16% is not possible exactly, anyway. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.66.255.30 (talk) 11:08, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

First item on provocative statements list

I removed that item because there is no source saying it's provocative. It's simply a quote from a book written by Watson. We can't use the encyclopedia's voice to assume a statement provocative. We need someone else saying it is, or commenting on it in some shape or fashion. As it stands, there's no justification for cherry picking that particular quote above any other in the book. I am removing it again per WP:BLPSOURCES specifically. This is a contentious, unsourced opinion about the book quotation. —Torchiest _edits 21:08, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

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Descent

He is in the category "American people of African descent" but I cannot see any African or African-American ancestors mentioned in his "early years" section. But see above on genetic testing (16% African?) Hugo999 (talk) 23:04, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

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Picture of the day

James Watson (b. 1928) is an American molecular biologist, geneticist and zoologist, best known for discovering the double helix structure of DNA in 1953 jointly with Francis Crick. Watson, Crick, and Maurice Wilkins were awarded the 1962 Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine "for their discoveries concerning the molecular structure of nucleic acids and its significance for information transfer in living material". Educated at the University of Chicago and Indiana University, Watson met Crick at the University of Cambridge's Cavendish Laboratory in England, where they were still working when they deduced the structure. Watson wrote of the discovery in his book, The Double Helix (1968), and promoted further study of molecular biology while serving as director of Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory (CSHL) on Long Island, New York.Photograph: Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory; edit: Jan Arkesteijn Archive – More featured pictures...

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No "racist" in the lead

I just reverted the latest edit by Landerman56, which he seems to have originally made here. This issue was discussed at great length:

On the talk page
On RSN

And the consensus was that it does not belong in the article. Klortho (talk) 16:14, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I don't support calling the comments racist as it leads to WP:NPOV issues. People in the academic world are allowed to say hugely controversial things as long as they can produce evidence to back them up. Calling a person a racist is fine for a student protest placard, but it can be seen as an attempt to shut down debate.--♦IanMacM♦ 17:22, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

This scientist provided no evidence. In fact this is what led to his resignation. The referenced material clearly agrees his comments were racist. If you personally disagree then you should edit the article and provide sourced evidence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 18:48, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Landerman56, it looks like you made the changes in question on May 20th, here, but it doesn't seem that they were discussed on the talk page. The fact that no one noticed them doesn't equate to consensus. I checked the five references after that sentence and none of them support your description of his statements as "suggesting a link between human intelligence and skin color." According to this source, the LA Times article, what he actually said was "There is no firm reason to anticipate that the intellectual capacities of peoples geographically separated in their evolution should prove to have evolved identically." So, clearly, that's closer to "geographical ancestry" than "skin color".

You are strongly pushing your own POV here, but I'd suggest you get a little more familiar with the subject matter, and some of the discussions that have gone on before -- start with the ones I linked to above. Another great source for background information might be this well-known gene expression blog post.

I'm going to put it back the way it was. If you want to make changes like that, the onus is on you to get consensus. Klortho (talk) 18:52, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to put it back since in the article it clearly states his comments were about skin color. Read his quote which is referenced in the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 21:03, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

Read the article that is referenced already. If that reference is invalid then please change it if you have substantial supporting documentation that it is wrong. If what he said was scientifically sound then please show the references to support his statements. Otherwise the reasoning for his comments is clear as the article states. If you disagree then that's your POV which is not based on fact. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 21:07, 11 July 2016 (UTC)

I think Watson had a serious foot in mouth moment over this, but it is important to stick closely to what he said.--♦IanMacM♦ 07:02, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

I reported Landerman56 for edit warring here, but haven't heard anything yet. Klortho (talk) 12:30, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Landerman56, please stop edit warring. I've reported you, as I mentioned, but I guess they are short of volunteers, otherwise I'm sure you would have been blocked. Both I and ianmacm have reverted your edits and requested, respectfully, that you try to work out consensus here before making your changes. I've tried to explain to why it's you who has the burden of getting consensus, not us. Here it is again, in a nutshell: this page existed for quite a long time in the state it was before May, which, because this is such a controversial page, is implied consensus. Just look back through the talk page archives and you'll see that just about every phrase has been discussed to death. Please, your efforts to make genuine improvements to the article would be appreciated, but here it just seems like you hate what Watson said, and want to slant the article that way. Rather than fill up the article with emotion-laden words, in the cases where there's controversy, as ianmacm said, let's just try to be as factual as possible. Klortho (talk) 22:31, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Special:Contributions/Landerman56 shows a campaign is in progress and edits like this are edit warring, against consensus, and unencyclopedic editorial commentary. Johnuniq (talk) 23:12, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Consensus

The consensus for quite some time from the referenced material is the lead is fine as is. If you have further concerns you can source reputable references to back up your claim. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 16:52, 11 July 2016

Disruptive edits

Follow up from the discussion above: it appears that this user, Landerman56, has been making disruptive edits to this page since 2007, and has often been suspected of being a sockpuppet account. I added more information about this to the complaint on the Admin noticeboard. I've never encountered this situation before -- any advice or help would be appreciated. Klortho (talk) 23:08, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Unfortunately there is no shortage of disruption at Misplaced Pages and dealing with it will take time. Monitor the edit warring report and respond to any questions, but it would be best to not add more there because too much activity tends to drive away anyone who might take an interest. There is no problem—we just have to wait. I removed the user name from the heading as an article talk page is not the place for that. In principle a report about a user could be made at WP:ANI but that would be unlikely to help at the moment. Let's wait. Johnuniq (talk) 23:19, 12 July 2016 (UTC)

Will do, thanks! Klortho (talk) 00:37, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

There is no disruption. I will continue to make good faith edits to this page. If anyone disagrees with the long established sourced material then I implore you to find new creditable sources. For example the term "geographic ancestry" was never used in any sourced material however the word "black" was. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 02:27, 19 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead sentence: "racist" vs. "controversial"

I've altered the sentence in the lead discussing Watson's 2007 remarks, for reasons described here Misplaced Pages:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard/Archive241#James_Watson. I presented background facts and arguments there and waited a considerable pause for responses from @Ianmacm: and @Landerman56:, frequent editors of this page who were engaged in discussion there. Now @Klortho: has reverted my edit.

For reference, here is the new text:

…after making racist comments claiming Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent than others.

With regard to the word racist, the comments are unambiguously racist, and this description is brought up by numerous RS (e.g., The Root and Henry Louis Gates, Slate The Atlantic, the Los Angeles Times). Prior discussion by @Captain Occam: argued that "racist" is controversial because of have a blog post by Jason Malloy, identified in a New York Times article as: "Jason Malloy, 28, an artist in Madison, Wis., who wrote a defense of Dr. Watson for the widely read science blog Gene Expression." Malloy is neither an expert on the psychology of intelligence, nor on what constitutes a racist remark, but he is an avid amateur researcher in the WP:FRINGE viewpoint of "human biodiversity," and runs a blog called humanvarieties.org.

With regard to the meaning of the comments, Watson himself acknowledged the implications of the remarks and apologized: "I can certainly understand why people, reading those words, have reacted in the ways that they have. To all those who have drawn the inference from my words that Africa, as a continent, is somehow genetically inferior, I can only apologize unreservedly. That is not what I meant. More importantly from my point of view, there is no scientific basis for such a belief."

Racism is a political position, among other things, and it's completely possible for a statement to be objectively racist, just as a remark can be pro-abolition or anti-clerical.--Carwil (talk) 16:47, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Please, stop disruptively editing this page with the same unfounded smears. Next time it happens, I'll take it to ANI.

Why were you discussing it over at BLP, picking up a thread there that was six days old? I didn't know about that discussion, and there was no link to it either from here or from my talk page. Landerman56 has already been blocked for editing this part of the lead, which, I pointed out above, was discussed at length in 2007, NPOV: Racist comments?. The consensus reached way back then was to keep it out of the lead. It was a long discussion, but key points that won the day, plus some of my own editorializing mixed in:

"Racist" has a very negative connotation, and therefore, ceteris paribus, violates NPOV.
Watson was giving an interview as a scientist on a topic, construed broadly, within his field of expertise
Other experts agree that his statements were true -- references are given not only to the GNXP blob but to this review paper.

It definitely should not be stated in Misplaced Pages voice in the lead, but if you want to inline-quote it somewhere in the body, using, for example, Francis Collins, that would make sense to do.

Calwin, perhaps you didn't know that we had an established consensus for the lead, but Landerman56 certainly did. This is a monumental waste of my time. If you want to make a similar change, discuss it here first. Since you've wasted over an hour of my time today, I'm going to take the liberty, at the risk of seeming uncivil, and ask: don't you have anything better to do? Why is it so important to you to besmirch this Nobel Prize winner's reputation? This incident has already destroyed his career, isn't that enough? Have you no decency, sirs? Klortho (talk) 19:10, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

The word racist is not inherently controversial. In the case of James Watson's comments it is a simple fact that they were racist. There is zero credible scientific evidence to back any controversy over this matter. James Watson himself has admitted they were and his views have been widely condemned as being racist. To say otherwise or to hide this does a disservice to our Misplaced Pages readers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 19:17, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

This doesn't really deserve a response, but I can't help it. Watson never admitted they were racist. That's a lie, and it's been pointed out before. Klortho (talk) 19:55, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

@Klortho: First, I appreciate being called by my name, not "Calwin."

Second, I picked up an active conversation on BLP, three days after the prior post, and assumed that involved editors were aware of the conversation. Following some conversation there, I waited two more days for any response before editing the text here.

Now, opinions may differs as to whether intelligence testing is outside Watson's scientific expertise, but "people who have to deal with black employees find" that they are not intellectually equal to non-blacks is straight up prejudice. No way around it.

I'm comfortable with the current text ("saying Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent than others") since this summarizes his three points (gloom re: development, testing as measure of present and future intelligence, Black employees), but just saying their are "controversial" comments about "a link" buries the lead. I'd also be open to "widely repudiated" in lieu of "controversial."--Carwil (talk) 01:20, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I put it back to the "reference" version -- the state it was in for quite a long time (I'd have to double-check, but I think at least a few years) before this past May. Klortho (talk) 04:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

The main phrase we've been fighting over is currently worded, "making controversial comments claiming a link between intelligence and geographical ancestry". I'm not particularly happy with that, because I don't think it's an excellent summary of what he actually said, but I'm dead set against using pejorative descriptors like "racist". Those are clearly pushing your point of view, and you should be able to acknowledge, no matter how crystal-clear it might seem to you, that others disagree. He said what he said, and has been pointed out in comment threads before, his "apology" was not a retraction, meaning, in all likelihood, he stands by it. They were statements and speculations related to an important area of research, and it is not for you (or me) to second-guess a Nobel prize winner, by smearing his statements with a highly charged pejorative. Klortho (talk) 05:05, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm going to withhold other arguments for a minute and suggest an improvement. I think perhaps we can agree on: "widely repudiated comments saying Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent than others"? (Obviously, I'm repeating myself, but I would stand down on "racist," which is attributed in the main text, if we go with this.)--Carwil (talk) 12:02, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for responding reasonably on the talk page. It really is a nice change. I think you've put your finger on the heart of this edit controversy: you say it has been repudiated, but it hasn't been. I can understand that anyone who believed that it has would feel that the narrative in the article should be woven around this crucial point. I think that's why I and others ofter make reference to the gene expression blog post even though it's not used a source -- because it's the best clear deconstruction of the core issues, and provides plenty of data and references that show that what Watson said is not only true, but comports with the consensus science in the relevant specialties. A lot of people, like me, who understand this, feel that the central theme of this story is an unjust persecution of one of our leading scientists. Regarding what should be in the article, I understand it needs to comport with WP:UNDUE, but at the very least, it should not perpetuate myths (and esp. not in WP voice) that led to this travesty in the first place.

So, in what way can you justify describing this as "widely repudiated"? Keep in mind that we're not even talking about the radioactively hot-button nature-nurture question. Your suggested edit implies that somehow, the hundreds of studies that have documented a gap in IQ test scores either are all fatally flawed, or else that IQ test scores have nothing whatsoever to do with intelligence. Klortho (talk) 14:54, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm always hesitant to intervene in these sorts of discussions, but I feel obliged, given Klortho's apparent reliance on IQ test scores as unimpeachable support for Watson's statements. I don't have the time or room to enumerate the many difficulties with IQ testing as a reliable measure of intelligence (the Council for Reliable Genetics has assembled a nice bibliography here, for those interested), but briefly, Binet designed his tests to identify students who would need help in school, and to this day there is no conclusive proof that they do anything more than that -- certainly none that they accurately measure overall cognitive ability. On a broader scale, Watson bases his conclusions on the assumption that intelligence is all about genes, and nothing else matters; and this is quite contrary to a huge body of scientific evidence that intelligence is way more complicated than that. Genes are one part — an important part, but not the only part — of a vast web of influences, from the food we eat to the games we play to family stress to whether you grow up in Beverly Hills or Harlem to what sort of access you have to high-quality schools and teachers.

I hasten to add that this is not about political correctness. Just because we don’t like what Watson said about "all the testing" saying that the intelligence of blacks is "not really" the same as "ours" doesn’t make him wrong; it's the science that makes him wrong. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 15:57, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

In my experience, these discussions often get derailed by side topics. If we're going to have this discussion, could we all try to be as precise and specific as possible in our assertions? I will do so.

Your main assertion, DoctorJoeE, seems to be (correct me if I'm wrong) "to this day there is no conclusive proof that ... accurately measure overall cognitive ability." I don't know what you mean by "conclusive proof". If you mean anything weaker than, say, a climate-change denier means when he says "there is no conclusive proof that our climate is changing", then I don't think your statement is supported by the literature. The concept of general intelligence is well defined. It's as valid a quantitative trait as many others and, while there are many different IQ tests, and each one has its own correlation to g, they all measure g to some extent. Could you provide specific references for your assertion that no IQ test accurately measures cognitive ability? I glanced through your bibliograpy and didn't see anything.

You also wrote, "Watson bases his conclusions on the assumption that intelligence is all about genes, and nothing else matters." Here, precision in our language would be really helpful. There are two absolutes in this sentence: "all" and "nothing", that render this invalid and misleading. In my experience, usually scientists who suggest a genetic component are always careful not to use absolutes, and I haven't seen any quote of Watson using them.

Furthermore, I think the nature-nurture question is a side-topic. He brings up evolution later, but the comment that "all the testing says not really" doesn't refer to genetics. In my comment above, I was trying to separate the nature-nurture question out, because it's a much more thorny and difficult, whereas the gap itself is comparatively cut-and-dry. Do you disagree with that? Klortho (talk) 18:16, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Well, yes. I think one is part and parcel of the other, in Watson's world. In order to accept his hypothesis, as I understand it, you have to accept both of his assertions that (1) genes rule, intelligence-wise, and (2) IQ tests are a reliable measure of overall cognitive ability. I was merely pointing out that objective science doesn't support either of those assumptions. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 00:28, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

But I think it does. How familiar are you with the latest literature? I looked over your bibiography site again, and I'd suggest that it's very problematic. They state plainly that what they do is to "provide educational resources to racial justice advocates", which clearly implies an ideological bias. For the discussion of the cold hard science; i.e., what statements are and are not supported by the research, since there is so much conflicting literature, it's crucial to evaluate sources based on their scientific quality alone. So I think that would disqualify most of the references from the Race and Genetics page you linked to, because they are from periodicals intended for lay readers (Newsweek) or by lawyers or the like that don't discuss science, but rather politics and ethics. Klortho (talk) 23:45, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

The field of genetics, which is what I assume you mean by "objective science," does support the notion that genes are important and cut through other variables when it comes to, among most everything else about an individual, intelligence and educational attainment. The frequency of certain alleles leads to higher degrees of educational attainment and IQ in the same way that the frequency of certain alleles leads to increased height. You could argue that IQ tests are a white invention and tailored for the the white intellect or racist against non-whites, but that falls down slightly when you consider that asians generally outperform whites in those tests. Chess is a good test of intelligence too, and it is also dominated by whites, asians and ashkenazim. Zaostao (talk) 14:30, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

I said I was hesitant to enter this discussion, and as usual, I regret doing so. Let me just repeat what I said: Genes are one part — an important part, but not the only part — of a vast web of influences on overall cognitive ability, from the food we eat to the games we play to family stress to whether you grow up in Beverly Hills or Harlem to what sort of access you have to high-quality schools and teachers. The science supports that. Further, there is wide disagreement about what intelligence consists of, precisely, and how - or even if - it can be measured in the abstract. So anyone who says that IQ test score data - or chess (how many rural or inner city kids, no matter how smart, have 6 hours/day to devote to chess, or the disposable income to travel to tournaments?) - somehow settles this issue per se does not understand the issue nearly as well as he or she thinks. That was my only point, and I'm outta here. You're welcome to the last word if you want it. DoctorJoeE /_{talk to me!} 00:59, 2 August 2016 (UTC)

I intended "widely repudiated" to describe Watson's comments, rather than all investigations of racial differences in IQ. (I'm willing to acknowledge that there's a WP:MINORITYVIEW on hereditary explanations for group differences in IQ as evidenced by the review article Klortho cited, although it isn't so far from being WP:FRINGE. Whether that view exists really does not address whether it is (a) correct, or (b) driven by racist prejudices and an overwillingness to ignore confounding variables. But that takes us directly away from RS commenting on James Watson's words.)

Now "repudiate" means two things: "to refuse to accept or be associated with," and "to deny the truth or validity of." Many people and institutions did one or both of these things: the Science Museum in London said Dr Watson had gone "beyond the point of acceptable debate" and cancelled his talk; Cold Spring Harbor Laboratory asked him to resign as director; we can read that "The comments effectively ended Watson's public career. He was denounced by eminent colleagues and stripped of his post as chancellor of New York's Cold Spring Harbor."

I've cited several sources describing the comments as racist, and more say it is inaccurate and scientifically baseless. Since Watson himself describes the episode as leading to his ostracization as an "unperson" and the end of his public lecturing and his invitations to serve on corporate boards, I think it's clear that the repudiation was carried out by a wide variety of people. Unlike "racist," "widely repudiated" presumes a verifiable set of people who did the repudiating (whom of course we would reference in the article) and does not put the judgment in the voice of Misplaced Pages. It is in that sense alone that I meant that the comments were "widely repudiated."--Carwil (talk) 18:30, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Okay, given that definition of "repudiated", it's impossible to deny that indeed, he was widely repudiated. But if we focus on the repudiation, then surely the real story is how those people all betrayed science, isn't it? Even if they didn't agree with what Watson said, other scientists (esp. the Nature editorialists) had a duty to defend one of the pillars of scientific process: the right of every scientist to freely and openly express his ideas. I just discovered three more references that we could use to expand the article, and make it more balanced:

First a hero of science and now a martyr to science: The James Watson Affair – Political correctness crushes free scientific communication, editorial from 2008.

James Watson tells the inconvenient truth: Faces the consequences - editorial by Jason Malloy, 2008. I haven't read this closely yet, but it looks like it's mostly a rewrite of his GNXP blog post. This looks to me like it meets the threshold of including in a BLP.

James Watson’s most inconvenient truth: Race realism and the moralistic fallacy - Rushton & Jensen, 2008.

Klortho (talk) 23:35, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

So, it's widely repudiated, then.

I am still baffled on how we if person X "apologizes unreservedly" for a remark and say "there is no scientific basis for such a belief" that we dredge up people who do think there is such a scientific basis for it and put them in the article about person X. There's ample counterargument on these issues, for example (from Steven Rose, Stephen Jay Gould, the Council for Responsible Genetics), but the bulk of this argument belongs on Race and intelligence and not here.--Carwil (talk) 20:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

Watson never apologized, and that's the whole point. There's no need to dredge people who agree with it, the burden is on the editors who want to change the article to be inaccurate and perpetuate the anti-science slanders that have dogged him since that event. Klortho (talk) 02:33, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

If you think the quoted statement above (which ends with "I can only apologize unreservedly") is not an apology, I don't know what to say. If you think the quoted statement from Watson endorses a scientific position for which "there is no scientific basis," you need RS saying that Watson didn't mean what he plainly said. And if you can't live with the proposed modification ("widely repudiated comments") because of these concerns, then we need a Misplaced Pages:Third opinion.--Carwil (talk) 19:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

I agree with Carwill on this and I think this change should be made immediately. I'll wait for further discussion however the personal opinion of a single editor will not further delay this very important update. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 19:54, 1 August 2016 (UTC)

Disagree, and note that the language is a "contentious claim" which needs consensus for inclusion at this point. Alas - as far as I can tell, consensus for the claims as worded in the edit essayed today fails. Collect (talk) 20:12, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

The edit is completely reasonable change based on consensus on this page. Please do not revert thoroughly discussed edits. You may suggest an edit and we can then talk about it. The article as it stood was clearly misleading and a disservice to wikipedia readers. This change is more in line with other sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 21:29, 5 August 2016 (UTC)

If you wish the edit, then have an RfC. So far it appears to everyone else that you are in the minority on pushing the "the man is a racist" angle. Collect (talk) 00:33, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 07:28, 6 August 2016 (UTC) -->

Reported user for edit warring again

I reported Landerman56 for edit warring again, here. Klortho (talk) 19:54, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

That blocked user seems to think that numerical tests do not result in statistics. See his last edit. Collect (talk) 23:42, 20 July 2016 (UTC)

Lead sentence part two

So, after the above discussion, acknowledgment from @Klortho: that Watson's comments were "widely repudiated," and a week of silence, I made the edit inserting this phrase:

"when he resigned his position after making widely repudiated comments saying Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent than others."

Now, @Collect: has reverted with the unsatisfactory (to me) explanation "not. this is a clear overstepping at this point" and the rather limited argument above "consensus for the claims as worded in the edit essayed today fails." In short, there are editors who don't like this change. (Collect doesn't come out and claim to be one of them. But perhaps this will happen.) If there is an objection to the text, it had better be based on something more than "I don't like it."

Our BLP policy limits "Contentious material about living persons … that is unsourced or poorly sourced" but there is no question of sourcing here. There's as best I can tell no question that Watson's comments said that Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent. If anything, I've gone out of my way to not say "us" (his word) describes whites or Europeans. That this is verifiable can be seen by reading any of the sources writing on the controversy. Indeed, Klortho's argument above about why these comments are scientific (despite Watson's disavowal of their scientific merit) is precisely about the comparative intelligence of Africans and white Westerners.--Carwil (talk) 11:10, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Then find a specific reliable source for the claim as worded saying "Africans and black Westerners are less intelligent" . Until then, it looks like very non-neutral language is being used here. As far as I can tell, he was referring to statistical averages, perhaps you can show where he did not refer to statistical averages on standard IQ tests? And the claim was not "repudiated" (disproven) as much as criticized for being misused by racists. Collect (talk) 12:17, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

Suggested wording

when he resigned his position after stating that different racial groups showed differences in statistical averages for standardized IQ tests.

Which is in accord with his statements. The controversy about that statement is fully covered elsewhere in the biography. Collect (talk) 12:23, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Landerman56 (talk • contribs) 13:04, 6 August 2016 (UTC)-->

This is a rehash of the above discussion. Your suggestion is inaccurate. He has never cited IQ tests or any source of proof for his comments. He was also specific in who he described as less intelligent which is black westerners. These were simply Socially and scientifically rejected comments. Did he make a mistake? I think he admitted it and the article should accurately reflect that fact

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