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Talk:Terry Goodkind/Archive 1

Introduction

Does anyone have a good source for the nubmer of books sold by Terry Goodkind? Options include:

http://www.prophets-inc.com/news/

or

http://www.scglit.com/press.htm

or

http://www.prophets-inc.com/the_author/ 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I can "officially" say it is indeed more than the 20 million, but I do suggest that we stick to the 20 Million. There are some specific reasons for this. We "Officially" know that Goodkind has some huge numbers in several foreign countries. Italy, China, The Philippines, Russia, The Netherlands are selling record numbers of the series. The SOT series is outselling any other fantasy series over there. Some of the foreign sub-publishers do not report to TOR or his UK publisher. This is why we see such a discrepancy on this matter.

So I do suggest we say 20 million + Mystar 03:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What makes it official? Do you have a reference from TOR? Since the other publishers do not send the numbers to TOR, we can't rely on TOR for a ceiling figure, but they'll definitley give a floor figure, or an accurate one for the US and Canada. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, as a fatter of mact, I do! I also have material from Goodkind, BUT, as I stated earlier, I am suggesting that we use the figure we have listed on .net & .com, as Terry is not going to make his royalty numbers public, and with good reason!

Secondly WLU, I am going to ask politely that you take a less hostile tone with me. I stated the facts as they are. Call Tor if you wish, call Harper Collins UK and they will tell you not every publisher reports to them. If you don't like that, it is not my problem. I have source material that you are not privy to. So me I am free to make public, some I'm asked not to. I do think however that my well-known association with Goodkind' gives my points creditability. If you disagree, that's not my problem. Mystar 02:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

If you can't source it you can't use it. NeoFreak 03:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

p, well, that would be "why" I stated that we use the 20 Million+ figure.

I can "source it" but, I've no desire to start faxing Russia, et al, to get the rest of them. Mystar 04:14, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Then don't use it. NeoFreak 04:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

uhm, well didn't I just say, I suggest we "not" use it? I am asking you to please stop being counter productive here in your attempts to assume a superior tone. It is counter productive to the situation at hand. I can source the 50 Million and with full credibility! I fail to understand why you feel you must attempt to correct me even after I have stated several times I suggest we use the 20 million+ figure. Mystar 04:28, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I would suggest using the exact TOR figure and simply making a notation that the number does not include many foriegn sales and then citing it. Sound reasonable? NeoFreak 04:35, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds fair to me!Mystar 04:50, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Then unless any other editors have a issue with it I think we can implement that change post mediation? NeoFreak 04:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Work

There is an ongoing debate about his work and influence. Older items have been archived, what is current remains below 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, do we want half-truths? Or do we want be "honest" and publish fact? Goodkind has a colorful and widely varied work history. Like his work as an artist. That was his main stay career. I have all the proofs anyone wants. BUT the bottom line is this; some have shamelessly edited his work history because they didn't believe it. Again, I say fact IS fact and is pertinent to being encyclopedic knowledge. Anyone? Mystar 03:17, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Please present your proofs of his work as an artist. I google-imaged TG's name with -stone -phantom -all the titles, I coulnd't find an on-line picture he painted. I'm quite willing to accept that in the article if we have something to link it to. Admittedly from his webpage it does look like he does have a variety of occupations, but what is there besides just his webpage? If you can provide me with a link to his paintings that doesn't go through something with Terry Goodkind in the domain name, it'll go a long way towards me dropping my objections. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, I see a pattern here already. WLU, if all you are going to do is to argue and attempt to shoot anything down, I have a problem with you. I already am of the mind you just jumped in to be a fly in the ointment on this situation. We have no knowledge of you other than popping up and jumping on this bandwagon, and as I stated it is already looking like you are here just to decry any information I offer.

Goodkind being a well-known artist is a well-known fact. If you took the time to read any interviews (written, audio or otherwise), articles, Statements from Goodkind and the myriad of pictures I've posted of his works on the MB's you would not be asking that question. You will find various statements about Goodkind's work as an artist. All you have to do is to look. It is not incumbent upon me to proof out to you what we already know, just to please you.

I happen to have several prints of Goodkind's work in my home and IF you have any of the SOT books you also have some of his work there as well. Goodkind painted the leaf pattern on the inside pages of the first few books. It took him 50+ hours to do that piece, as it is a very difficult piece of work. dot, painting and shading is not the easiest thing to do. The image of Cara of Temple of the Winds is also a piece of Goodkind's work, but that is nothing compared to the real work he has done with realistic marine and wildlife paintings. He has several shows at various galleries, his last painting titles Penguins on Ice http://www.terrygoodkind.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2045 sold for over for over $30,000.00 ten years ago, and was just resold for over $200,000.00 earlier this year. Mystar 03:04, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

That's good enough for me but having a link to the sale, a independant site/gallery/etc or anything else along those lines will go a long way. I'm not inclined to believe that there is an elborate hoax set up to decieve people into thinking his is a commissioned artist when he is not. Without a thiry party reference though the wording should read "Terry Goodkind has claimed" or words to that effect. Still, I see no problem including it in the article. NeoFreak 03:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Symbolism

There was a section on symbolism that has not been touched since 2005. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it mainly because people don't understand this section and how to populate it , let along wrap their teeth around it. just MHO Mystar 03:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Or it could be because symbolism is an inherently personal thing once you get beyond the myths and history of a people. Symbolism is a contested thing, I would think it's almost impossible to say something about symbolism that everyone agrees with. I think it's better staying out of this page, and either go into the individual book's pages, or a "symbolism of TG" WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Or it could be that you just don't want any content pertinent to Goodkind that would provide the reader proper information so they can better understand what Goodkind is presenting within his books.

This "is" after all a page about Goodkind and what "he" is presenting. Not what you want his to present, but these are "his" books and as he has placed some specific situations and spend some amount of time crafting his work to show symbolism, that it becomes nessary that that fact be included as it would at that point be "encyclopedic" in nature. That being Goodkind is using it to make a point. It is not as you are trying to espouse "an inherently personal thing". It is in fact a part of what he is providing for the reader. Nothing Personal" about it. Fact is fact. Mystar 03:12, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

First off I think all this should go to the SoT pages and not the TG page. Secondly there is no doubt that the books are infused with Objectivist symbolism and TG has stated as much in interviews and online chat (has he not?) plus it's just in your face obvious. Just make sure it get sourced and it shouldn't be a problem to include it as it is relevant to the subject. NeoFreak 03:16, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Previous careers

Some individuals discussed previous careers, such as hypnotist and formula one driver.

Mystar was going to provide proof and references to this, which will add to the page if they are available. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

See work above Mystar 03:19, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

See notes below. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Philosophical Views!

Terry Goodkind puts a lot of objectivist philosophy in his books. Some find it preachy. Goodkind's response on an on-line chat was:

Goodkind explained to those present who had criticized his writing style with such harsh criticism of the base philosophy and the moral and ethical values contained within the series, saying that they were not fans, and that they hated that his novels existed. He also claimed "their goal is not to enjoy life, but to destroy that which is good... These people hate what is good because it is good." We have seen the full effect and thuth of this fact by the attacks against the values with in the series, against the moral and ethicial set the characters uphold.

Mystar contested this, there was some back and forth, the debate is ongoing and as of August 28th, 2006, was reflected in the article itself below. Stuff from June and before was archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I contested this because, it was biased and out of context. We did an "on-line live chat", not all the pertinent info was placed in context. Goodkind was actually answering to a specific attack from someone in a letter. The context was specifically a trash attack telling Goodkind that they are fans but how dare he be his placing his values, moral and philosophical views in his books. The series is created by Goodkind, and he can add what he wishes, as he sees fit. Someone who attacks him for his values and especially the fact that he has chosen to portray his hero's as incorruptible and holding fast to their values is hi right. This so called fan also stated that Goodkind should kill off his hero, for nothing more than he felt all heroes must die. Goodkind said it right, this person is no fan, and he hates that his books exist. We see this all too clearly in the anti-Goodkind people out there who continually attempt to add hateful and overtly false and critical information. We see this in a few people who keep a running trash Goodkind thread of a couple of message boards... I also add that they are fanatical fans of their message board the are posting on (I'll forgo the names, but I can provide several links to any mod to prove my point), So because Goodkind is selling so well, they feel they have to take him down a peg or two (an actual quote from one MB in patericular)

I think seeing as the series "is" so steeped with and written for the expression of Goodkind's Philosophical views, it is a most intragual portion of the page. That some people don't like it; sorry that's too bad. They don't get to post personal opinion and try and obfuscate the premise of the books. It is what it is. Just because someone started reading the series, and after a few books, only then, caught on to the base premise of the series, decides they think it too preachy, is not reason enough to plaster that point on the page. That is their personal opinion. What they are saying is, "I don't like the books after all" That isn't reason enough to then, say "Goodkind changed his format and is now to preachy".

We could say that the later novels hold a deeper/heaver Philosophical focus than the earlier books, but not "I don't like them anymore because he's to preachy".

What we do see is that as Richard is faced with ever increasing problematic situation's, his core beliefs, his base values, are being shown to a greater extent...as the various situations arise. Remember people; we do not have a great deal of knowledge of Richards early years. We know an honest stepfather raised him, he had to some extent a mother who loved him very much, his Grandfather (Zedd) helped raised him, and would most assuredly have taught Richard (and we are also told this info as well), a great deal. We know that Richard was a woods guide and also dealt with some powerful people as he guided them through the woods. We know that Chase was also a friend and mentor/teacher to Richard. So we see that Richard has in fact a great deal of investment and knowledge of his values and philosophy. It is only coming out as we see the situations arise Mystar 03:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This page is about TG, not his novels. The inclusion of the quotes about his philosophical views and his writing style is a touchy subject which should be modified via consensus I think, especially given how much back and forth there is. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I guess you missed the part where Goodkind's work "IS" about his philosophical views. It only becomes "touchy" when false and biased information is placed. Goodkind has made it very clear about his philosophical views, so that "is" in fact an "encyclopedic" point. Keeping people from posting negative and smearing commentary about his Philosophical views, is not allowed. Posting that his work is about them, "is". It is not opinion, it is not biased, and it is not contradictory to being sourced. The fact that some people may not care for or like the fact is not germane to the page. Mystar 03:22, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Photo

There was discussion whether the photo in the article was recent. Mystar stated that it was, and provided several other pictures to put up if people wanted. There were no takers, and the photo seen as of August 28th, 2006 was the same one that has been up for a while. The other photos are below. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

There was also a brief discussion circa April 2006 about TG editorializing. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

A discussion of cleaning up the discussion page. I'm doing so, archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Verifiability of "online chat"

There was a discussion of the verifiability and usefulness of on-line chat as a source of information for Misplaced Pages. Originally this was an discussion which ended up being a series of heated remarks and discussion outside of the original topic. All posts dated to before August. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

The on-line chats are fine. If you take them contextually and not read something into them that isn't there. Some have attempted to place an emotional inference into Goodkind's word that isn't there. Thus attempting to change the inflection of his answer. I know this is a very hard area to discern, given this media. Typing an answer is not the same thing as hearing it, seeing the eyes' the facial expressions and the demeanor of the one answering. The chate offer some good answers to questions. Mystar 04:04, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Online chat is a discussion between individuals who are not noteworthy in the same way a critic or author would be. It's just discussions between regular people, and their opinion because it is their opinion is not necessarily noteworthy. Did we get an official verdict on this kind of thing? Seems like a question for the people running Misplaced Pages. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

o.....k... If Goodkind is not noteworthy, then ...who is? I have placed WELL sourced Columnists, and random interviewers, and it has always been removed, usually by worthead, as being POV and therefore unacceptable. I disagree. What is not noteworthy as you said is personal opinion blogs whose only reason for existence is to demean Goodkind. Mystar 03:27, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Myself and others have already warned you repeatedly about personal attacks. I have added another warning to your talk page and will contact an admin to deal with your behavior. NeoFreak 03:37, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I've attacked no one. I stated fact! There is NO attack or personal attack. I stated what happened. Mystar 03:59, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

AHhhhh I see what your on about! Worthead/wErthead....lol... well excuse me then. I cut and paste everything for spell check befor I post it here, as I am (and ANYONE who knows me will attest)the worlds worst speller, "worthead" seems to be a "saved" edit in my spell check. After I spell check, I just cut and paste, I don't reread the post. I will endevor not to insult your friend Adam in the future by calling him anything other than "Werthead". my bad :) Mystar 04:18, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

LOL!!! OMG, dude, you have been warning mystar over misspellings? I'm sorry, but that is too funny. He IS one of the worst typists I have the pleasure of knowing, and he knows it. Ask anyone from tg.net about his lack of repairing broken spelling, and they will tell you about it. Omnilord 23:47, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Those were a few but not the only. In assuming good faith I'm inclined to believe him, and besides, it's a pretty good explanation :) NeoFreak 23:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Alienus and Mystar

A long dialogue between these two posters. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:22, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Regarding Mystar's Edits

A dialogue between Runch, Mystar and Werthead dating July 2006 initially about archiving rather than deleting the talk page. Soon moved past this point. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Recent Edits

THis section was not changed since July, so I moved it into the archive. WLU 20:18, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Minor Quibble

A discussion of TG work with marine and wildlife paintings that was never replied to, by Runch. Archived. 198.96.2.93 17:42, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy Author or Novelist?

Took out an initial section that discussed why TG could be categorized as a fantasy author. Archived. Left in some other bits of continuing comment. 64.230.1.241 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, yeah, this was me. My apologies, now I've got a userid so I'll sign everything. Also, they were part of my involvement as more of a newbie, so I do apologies for the barbs that Mr. Willocx pointed out below. His comments are warranted and I am appropriately castigated. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

ahhh well we begin to see what you are here for then.

You must have missed the fact that "I" had nothing what so ever to do with that section's placement, AND "I" in fact was the one trying to eliminate it. I'll thank you to stop trying to place an overt biased from me to this page. I'm also referring you now to who ever is going to mod this thing, as you have just proven my point of being highly suspicious and most likely a sockpuppet, or someone who has worked to add NPOV content.

I did however add a comment in response to the Negative slant and slanderous accusatory tone that was placed by Worthead. I also fail to see what your problem is to having a quote from Goodkind? This "is" after all a page about Goodkind! I fail to see why a page about Goodkind cannot have any commentary from Goodkind. Secondly, I will again ask you to stop your accusatory manor here and now! I am not and have NOT added anything that from Goodkind. Goodkind has NEVER asked me to add, alter or otherwise eliminate any content. I have said Goodkind liked this or that, or Goodkind didn't. I have also stated that Goodkind felt (after discussion with me suggesting it), it was good to have. SO, please get off your kick about Goodkind doing that through me. That is pure speculation on your part AND it is not in keeping with Good Faith.

Personally I think the fantasy or Novelist thing is unnecessary. It is only something someone placed so they could input NPOV biased to make him appear more controversial. It is not pertinent or germane to this page. Perhaps after he is dead, and argument is ensued as to what his works are to be considered as, then it would have contextual merit, but not now or while he is living. Mystar 03:46, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I find it interesting that you would chastise others for an "accusatory manor" (manner?). I am again going to warn you to refrain from personal attacks esp against Werthead as he seems to be your favorite target. I have already refered the matter to the admin notice board for a previous personal attack. NeoFreak 03:54, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I am going to warn you NEO for your "accusatory manor" and attempting to make everything I say out to be an attack. I've made no attacks. I pointed out facts and personal attacks on me. Werthead, was infact making several Negitive and biased edits. I corrected them. Mystar 04:03, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Fair points, but that would require a serious overhaul, not just a few barbs here and there like it was when I edited it. But I agree in principle that self-promotion is not wanted, and that TG does not have any right in determining what appears on this page and what does not, apart from correcting factual inaccuracies. Paul Willocx 16:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Did an attempt at writing a section that fitted the heading more. Comments appreciated. Paul Willocx 16:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Excuse me, But I think you need to rethink your reasoning here. Have you read any other authors page? I think not. You will not find any "argumentative" content on any GRRM's page, Erickson or any other fantasy author for that matter. Simply because you wish to place something of a dissenting voice questioning Goodkind or his views in is not what Misplaced Pages is about. This is a page "about" Terry Goodkind. It is not a page for people to plaster up arguments to his philosophy or his values. I read much of Martin's page and see almost exactly the same material and wording...so it's "OK" for GRRM, but not Goodkind? Sorry Misplaced Pages doesn't allow double standards. I read Erickson's page...same stuff.

So just because you have a problem with Goodkind or his bragging rights doesn't give you the right to omit proper information. That is considered vandalism. mystar68.188.220.8 17:13, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

You don't find any argumentative content on those other pages because those authors don't make a point of putting philosophical arguments in their books - they write for entertainment rather than to further a philosophy (natch, even TG is doing both, it's not just philosophical rabble-rousing. It is funny to see how he is imitating Ayn Rand though, she did the same thing in Atlas Shrugged). I've read Erikson's and Martin's (I'm also a fan of both, but I'm not posting propoganda on their pages). On SE page, "His style of writing tends towards complex plots with many point-of-view characters." and "Erikson has stated explicitly that he attempts to avoid the standard conventions of fantasy, and deliberately began the Malazan Book of the Fallen series in the midst of an ongoing story rather than beginning with a more conventional opening." could be considered unsourced, but it has also stood the test of time in Misplaced Pages - no users have edited or removed them, showing passive acknowledgement of its accuracy. Recently one comment which I agreed with "The books to date are of high quality in language and tone, being both able to stand alone as separate novels, as well as being intricately linked to other volumes." was removed, but I see the point the editor was trying to make. So I left it, even though I think it is pertinent. Your edits get removed all the time by contrast. As for GRRM, "This story, and many of Martin's others, have a strong sense of melancholy. His characters are often unhappy, or at least unsatisfied.", "The Brotherhood Without Banners is sometimes known among other fans as "George's Cult", because of their highly enthusiastic and evangelistic nature", and "However, the group is not a formal organization and all George R.R. Martin fans are considered 'spiritual' members even if they have not registered" could be considered, at a stretch, biased or unsourced. Since I haven't been visiting his page that often, I can't comment on their longevity. TG does not get bragging rights on wikipedia, this is not the venue to brag. He can (and does - heart of a 20 year old, HA!) on his personal website or in forums, or at conventions etc etc etc. The point being, GRRM and SE do not have philosophical soapboxing going on, or bragging. This page does. The constant editing to include positive information while removing anything that is remotely critical, looks like bragging to me. Same with everyone else who keeps changing the entry to be less biased. Although I must say it gradually does seem to be a better entry, measured in mustard seeds.

Ha! I read the tutorial 198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

More Edits by Mystar

Mystar, aka IP 68.188.220.8, the recent edits made to the Terry Goodkind article were not vandalism. You can't revert them just because you didn't like the fact that the editor changed what you had initially written. In fact, reverting the edits in such a way IS considered vandalism.

Look Mystar, I still firmly believe that you want to be a productive member of the Misplaced Pages community, but it is obvious by your edit history that you just don't know how to go about doing so. I've looked at your contributions - and roughly 90% or more of them involve edits to Terry Goodkind and this talk page. If you're ever going to learn Misplaced Pages protocol and etiquette, I urge you to branch out. Look at other articles. Read help pages. Contribute and be involved in more than one topic. For starters, I'd suggest looking at some of these pages:

• Misplaced Pages:Simplified Ruleset - A simple rule book for new editors
• Misplaced Pages:Vandalism - Defines what is and what is not vandalism
• Help:Reverting - Lets you know when to use the revert function
• Misplaced Pages:Staying cool when the editing gets hot - Tips on how to discuss issues on talk pages
• Misplaced Pages:Ownership of articles - PLEASE read this help page. It is very pertinent to you.

In addition, you may want to look at some articles on authors that have reached featured article status. Although Terry Goodkind is unique, looking at some of these articles may help you understand the direction in which we want to move for the article on Goodkind. Examples: Isaac Asimov, Robert A. Heinlein, J. R. R. Tolkien, and Douglas Adams, to name a few.

I hope you actually do take the time to look into some (or all) of the pages I have pointed out to you. They may help you become less possessive of this particular page on Goodkind, and I'm sure expanding your horizons will help you become a better Wikipedian.

Sincerely, Runch 03:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Most of the edit in question that mystar reverted was indeed not vandalism, but it did add a few rather dubious things in the article which I have now attempted to correct. Firstly, there is the "essential sense of the word " thing - it is already inside a direct quote from TG, I see no reason for additional quote marks, nor do I understand what the "sic" is doing there. Secondly, the "though how this differs from any other novel is uncertain" or something to that extent; I don't think sarcastic commentary belongs in a Misplaced Pages article. If we are to discuss the credibility of Goodkind's statements, which I do not think is the intention of this article anyway, then surely we can find a more elegant way than just adding comments of that kind inbetween the quotations.

I would assume that with those edits made, mystar has no further reason to revert as the rest of that edit seemed good.

Paul Willocx 13:24, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, thanks for your revisions. - Runch 14:23, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

sic was there because he said 'word' when it refers to two words - fantasy author.

198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Call them "misguided" if you wish. That is really y too bad is this IS Goodkind's page and I have edited according to HIS wishes.

In response to Runch, I have looked about a great deal, and have followed what is seen of GRRM's page, Erickson's page, ASOFAI page as well. If you wish to remove such information on their pages then do so, but you will find that everything I have added is in like manor the same material on other pages.

Simply because someone doesn't feel something fits doesn't mean it isn't pertinent or germane. I have sourced the material, I have placed it accordingly as it fits to the knowledge and understanding of this page.

As I've said in the past, Misplaced Pages is an OPEN format and is also so stated that editing will be done. I have acted in good faith and have place appropriate and good solid information. I'm simply adding appropriate content. The fact that someone doesn’t wish for Goodkind to look good or be place in a positive light is not my problem. What is my concern is adding the proper spin and pertinent info! mystar68.188.220.8 17:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Your problem, as evidenced in your comment when reverting my last edit, is that you believe TG should have the right to decide what is on this page. Guess what, he doesn't. Haven't you read all the fuss about the US Congress members who tried to edit out offending information out of their Misplaced Pages pages? Didn't work, either. As a fantasy author, TG is considered notable for inclusion in Misplaced Pages, and as such, the Misplaced Pages contributors determine what is on his page and what is not, not himself.

This is not a page for Goodkind to promote himself or to preach to his audience, it's an article in what is supposed to be an encyclopedia, which is supposed to give as objective a view as possible on him. :Paul Willocx 17:04, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Guess what mystar, he's right. This is not TG page, it's a wikipedia page. You aren't adding information, you are adding opinion, TG's opinion. And TG's opinion of his own work isn't the best source when you are talking about its quality. He can talk about what he wants to accomplish, what he is trying to show (or rather someone else should do it for him), but saying how great his own work is, this is not the place. A couple further points:

1. "I have sourced the material, I have placed it accordingly as it fits to the knowledge and understanding of this page." - you have sourced the author's own webpage, or his agent, or an online chat. Sometimes this is appropriate, other times it is not. The times it is not, it is removed. If it's still there, it's 'cause it's in a good contextual location.

1. "As I've said in the past, Misplaced Pages is an OPEN format and is also so stated that editing will be done. " - open format doesn't mean no standards. Peer reviewers are the standards, and your peers are disagreeing with you. Outright. By removing things. I've posted crap in the past - if it was good and relevant (like the fantasy tropes) it stayed but was modified. If it wasn't, it was removed, as it should have been.

1. "I have acted in good faith and have place appropriate and good solid information. I'm simply adding appropriate content." - No, you're promoting something that you are too baised to be neutral about. It's not information, it's opinion, mostly TG's opinion, which is not appropriate for Wiki. It is inappropriate content.

1. "The fact that someone doesn’t wish for Goodkind to look good or be place in a positive light is not my problem. What is my concern is adding the proper spin and pertinent info!" - this page is NOT meant to place him in a good light, it is to place him in a neutral light. That means praise and criticism, if sourced, and otherwise just information. YOU SHOULD NOT BE ADDING SPIN AT ALL. Pertinent info is OK.

1. "Well...guess what! I am a fan and I do get to decide what I see as fit. As I haev so stated, I've added sourced into and pertinate info. It has every right to stand, as it would be exactly the materian found in an encyclopedia. That IS and always has been my point!" - I'm not a fan, and I'm trying to tone down the critical edits I've made in the past. My bad, now I'm learning (thanks Paul Willocx, is that a mis-spelling?). You have added dubious information and sources. An agent is not the best place to go to get certain types of information, and a personal webpage is almost certainly not. Especially when that webpage doesn't back up your statement (what he was best known for before SoT - painting. First of all, it is to his personal webpage. Second, it doesn't even refernce that he was well known for it)

As Willocx (must be a typo) says below, you are not the sole editor of the page. His points are excellent, and I am really only re-stating them in more detail in the 5 points above. BTW, having trouble with the editing, should be a numbered list of 1-5

198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, the Misplaced Pages consensus decides. And the Misplaced Pages consensus has decided a number of things, among others that Misplaced Pages isn't supposed to take any particular PoV (which would be why both the prevailing opinion that SoT is fantasy, and Mr. Goodkind's assertion that it is not are included), that it is not a soapbox, and so on. Just because you can source something doesn't mean it's notable or should be on the page. As for your Martin and Erikson comments, I've just gone and read both of their pages, and I saw nothing that looked biased. A few comments on "dark themes" and the like in Martin, and something about the complexity in Erikson, but both of those are objective facts - comparable to the fact that there is a strong Objectivist theme in SoT. And I didn't see either Martin or Erikson using their Misplaced Pages article to preach their views, nor do they try to determine what is on their page and what isn't. Paul Willocx 17:22, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Ahhh yes! "Just because you can source something doesn't mean it's notable or should be on the page". The ole "do what I say not what I do, double standard eh!

You allow the same content on GRRM's etc page. I see Paul or is it Worthead? I see that you are the ASOFAI fanatic and as such allow this same content there, but cannot stand for it of Goodkind's page. I hope you can explain yourself. Suddenly out of the blue you trash Goodkind’s page. SO just because you have edited a couple of GRRM's pages...that makes you the "consensus"? Sorry bub, that outs you and your two other buddies. You want to cause havoc, and they your get a couple of other ASOFAI buddies to back you up. That is in no way any kind of "consensus". All anyone has to do is to look at the history of you guys and see the truth. You see nothing that looks "biased" because you are a fanatic of the page and want the bias there. It suites you, your buddies and GRRM as well. The fact is it is loaded with bias and POV. You cannot have it both ways dude. You have not acted in good faith or in an unbiased manor

mystar68.188.220.8 04:05, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

See elsewhere. Paul Willocx 17:44, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I would clarify at this point that, as far as I can determine, I am not the same individual as Paul Wilcox. I believe this can be determined neutrally by any admin by tracking ISP numbers. I gave up on trying to improve the quality of this page when I was repeatedly called a liar and treated with petty insults that were tiresome, so I retired to edit other pages that were of more interest to me about a month or two ago. This has proved invaluable in me gaining more experience of editing on Wiki and notably on getting a firmer grounding in NPOV rules. I actually went and ruthlessly edited and deleted my own NPOV statements from earlier articles when I was less experienced at editing. I have no wish to re-engage in a debate with Mystar (note that I bothered to spell your SN correctly, it would be helpful if you did the same to others), which is an exercise in futility. Thank you.--Werthead 18:00, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Would all of you kindly stop referring to me as "Wilcox"? Thank you. Paul Willocx 18:18, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Mediation

The edit warring on this page really has gotten to the point where it needs to be dealt with. I'd like to draw everyone's attention to: Misplaced Pages:Resolving disputes. Steps one and two (discussion and trying to "wait out the war") have proved ineffective, so at this point I'm going to make a request for informal mediation. If that proves ineffective in stopping the problems, I'm going to make a request for a formal mediation session. Should both of those steps prove ineffective, I will request arbitration, although I hope it need not come to that.

Regardless of the way, I hope to finally put an end to this conflict. - Runch 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Sounds reasonable.198.96.2.93 19:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

As an outside observer and someone who has not invested any real time editing the TG article it would seem you are already at the point of needing moderation. Mystar is admittedly acting as Terry Goodkind's mouth piece and has taken the position of doing what ever it takes to change this article into what he and TG want it to be, breaking several rules along the way despite repeated warnings from some very patient editors. This is not TG's article, it is everybody's artilce about TG. NeoFreak 01:52, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

I'll give the informal mediators a couple of days to see if they can help, but yes, I do forsee myself having to make a formal request for moderation or arbitration in the near future. - Runch 03:29, 26 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, the problem is simple. Paul Willocx, NeoFreak is suddenly pissed off because I edited something and asked for some citations on A song of fire and ice. It has several NPOV sections, yet he seems to think that’s..."ok" simply because he likes GRRM and ASOFAI. So because he, worthead and a couple of ASOFAI/BWOB fans dislike Goodkind so intensely they must rape Goodkind's page. It’s really that simple. Read the history. They recoil at anything about Goodkind being shown in any positive light. They only wish adverse information to be placed. Neo, worthead et al, have all shown their true intent here.

I've not stated my opinion about Goodkind's works here (or to my memory) anywhere else and I'm sorry you've interpreted my attempts to inprove this artilce and conform it to wikipedia's standards as an attempt to "rape" the article. NeoFreak

I do not dislike SoT in the slightest, I will thank you not to make ridiculous assumptions about me. I regret that you (and, to a lesser extent, Mr. Goodkind himself) have the regrettable and ignorant "if someone isn't with us, he's against us" mentality, in which "with us" is taken to mean agreeing with every single thing Mr. Goodkind says. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

So Misplaced Pages is "consensus", I only see two to three people being this so-called consensus. The page was fine...no problems since AL got himself booted... Worthead kept his two cents in the ring, but was also showing his true colors by trying to eliminate anything positive. I can source pages of worthead over at ASOFAI's home page talking about his campaign against Goodkind on Misplaced Pages.

If worthead has shown any dislike of Goodkind and you feel that he is not editing with good intention than by all means, present this should it go to mediation. NeoFreak

They suddenly! Up pops out of the blue, in pops someone most likely worthead under a new IP/name who had never before touched anything Goodkind, then he is suddenly the "consensus" and making major changes to the page. And lo, but who should come to his rescue another ASOFAI fanatic, Paul Willocx (or should I say worthead), Neo and Runch. Telling indeed! I hardly thing these people are "unbiased"... their edit sheet reads like a book. "We hate anything Goodkind".

Again I've not stated my opinion of Goodkind and my intention here is to improve this article, not wage a campaign against Mr. Goodkind or his good name. Further a review of talk pages and IP addresses will reaveal that, unless I'm engaged in an elaborate anti-Goodkind conspiracy and am in the habit of talking to myself, I am in fact, not werthead or any other person on this site but NeoFreak. I have no sockpuppets and am here on no one's volition but my own. NeoFreak

I would disagree. Anytime you edit anything Goodkind and it is reverted, one of your sockpuppets pops up to reinforce it and call it "consensus" mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

It is unfortunate that you would call me a liar without any evidence or knowledge of me or my character but all I can do is tell you I have no agenda but to improve this artilce and conform it to wikipedia standards and policies. NeoFreak

Still more of the ridiculous assumptions. Unlike yourself, I actually have an edit history on a good number of topics, many of them entirely unrelated to fantasy, though I've indeed been concentrating on that of late. My edit sheet has a lot of stuff on it, and very little of it is related to Goodkind; you are an extreme hypocrit to make that remark, given your own lack of interest in anything that is not Goodkind here at Misplaced Pages, except when hunting for material to accuse other editors of being biased and Goodkind-haters.

And oh no, imagine that, someone new might actually come by and disagree with some of your more unreasonable edits. It seems the greater reasonability in your edits for the article itself, that I mentioned below before reading all of this, has been accompanied by a lot of foaming at the mouth, ridiculous insults and dubious accusations on the talk page. Still a long way to go then, after all.

I think it's also quite telling that you think anyone who likes aSoIaF cannot possibly like SoT. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Secondly, I am not a "mouth piece" for or of Goodkind. Yes, I read him much of what is on here and we talk about it. SO WHAT? and BOOM! Suddenly because I say Goodkind liked something, then NEO is incensed and declares it MUST be stopped! How dare we allow anything Goodkind likes! How dare he read and like his page! We cannot allow ANYTHING that Goodkind approves of to stay on his page!

As you have discused werthead's comments outside of this site I think it only fair to now point out that you have declared on other sites that your are the "representative" of Mr. Goodkind and act in his intrests as he has no internet connection himself. In addition you are a personal friend and are an active organizer of fanclubs and events for Mr Goodkind. Addionaly I would ask that you do not put words into my mouth. My attention to this site was in fact attracted by your edits of the George RR Martin page after a review of your contribution history. After you raised issues with the wording of the artilce you might be intrested to know that I, and other editors, agreed with your "point" and changes were made. NeoFreak

And here you have just validated my point. You are only acting (along with your sockpuppets in a retaliatory strike for editing some NPOV on GRRM's page. I rest my case. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I must admit I do not follow your train of logic here. I wanted to understand you and where you weere coming from a little better and I reviewed your contribution history, which lead me here. I'm sorry that you interpret this as evidenefc of "retaliation" or an "anti-Goodkind conspiracy". I can only give you my assurance otherwise. NeoFreak

A common phenomenon of people accusing others of doing the things they do themselves, even when there is no reason to make that accusation: the reason why mystar has been editing GRRM's page should be obvious enough. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have never made any attempt not cover the fact that I am Terry's friend or discuss on-line things with him. That however in no way makes me his "mouth piece" I might point out that using such a has specific meaning and negative tones. You have the audacity to admonish me for a supposed tone or words, I would also respond in kind then. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Would "direct representitive" be more palatable? NeoFreak

Yes, I stated that Mr. Goodkind does not have the right to determine what is on this page, after you justified an edit with something like "don't touch it, this is the version Mr Goodkind approved of". Apparently you are incapable of dealing with that fact and have to grossly exaggerate it. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Puhlease! Get a life eh! I do hope you or anyone is not so mentally impaired that they think that GRRM, Erickson, Bakker et al, do not visit and discuss their pages with they friends! I do hope you are not dumb enough that you don't think they do not also edit. Fact is this. Goodkind GRRM or anyone has as much right to edit their own page and anyone else. I see no "rule" stating that because a page has their name on it they are banned from editing, they would be a violation of the rules and the First Amendment.

First off I would just like to point out that I have remained very civil, even cordial, with you and would appreciate if you could reciprocate this behavior. We are both adults and adults most often are capable of disscussion and debate without having to resort to name calling as it is unconstructinve, immature and agaist wikipedia policy. Secondly, George RR Martin has made the comment many times that he avoids all online forums about him and his work outside of his own ofical site as it interfears with his creative process. NeoFreak

I for one prefer to think of myself as an honest and moral man, I saw/see nothing civil in any of your commentary toward me, quite the contrary. I see you assuming "superiority" in tone from me. That would be entirely a failing on your part, as I have not taken any such tone. I suggest you stop attempting to read me as you feel you would be replying. A common mistake with this media, but I assure you I am nothing but concerned for proper content and eliminating the use of harmful editing and sockpuppets to back up such vandalism. I also disagree about your GRRM statement. He can say anything he wishes. We have no proof of its validity. Anyone can say anything they wish. mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you have been calling other editors liars and idiots and accusing them of having dishonest intentions without any proof. Your tone has been hostile and condesending but if that was not your intention then we can get past that. NeoFreak

You accuse people of being "sockpuppets" for no reason at all except that they agree with your "enemies". You whine whenever someone does something you don't like, and bear grudges to such people, to the point of dragging them into arguments with which they have nothing to do, and to chasing for anything you can take offense in in their other articles. You are definitely not the person to complain about being treated uncivilly. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I will edit when I see a need. I have every right to add content if I deem it worthy. I see someone come along and mass edit something that has been up for a long time and I revert it, and then "I'm" labels the vandal? I think not. I welcome a neutral mediation...IF one can be found with out ties to these vandals.

In which "vandal" means anyone who dares to alter the article, constructively or not, yes? Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I very much encourage you to be bold in your editing but if other editors have a reason to make changes and/or reversions please accept that they too have a say and your issues are best worked out in civil discourse and a review of policy, not by attacks, accusations and name calling. NeoFreak

Simply put, your/their edits may not be in the best interest of the information as they/you have ulterior motives. I do think seeing as I have an infinite amount of correct and accurate information, I'm better suited to judge what it correct information or not. Simply because you do not like the author (have you even read his works of all of them), and you feel empowered to edit away, in no way makes your edit correct. So my replacing proper and accurate information would then be the proper and correct action mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Original Reasearch is not allowed on wikipedia but your personal relationship with Mr. Goodkind could be very helpful in pointing editrs toward resources they can cite in this article. Your unsourced opinion is irrelevant and Mr. Goodkind through you as well. Again only sourced information is allowed on Misplaced Pages. Your opinion is no more valid than anybody mine or any other editor. Period. NeoFreak

I may not be up on Misplaced Pages or all of its inner workings codes etc. I do not intend to spend my valuable time sorting it out to please the likes of fanatics who are only looking to do harm to someone's page they do not like. I see some major hypocrisy going on here, not to mention a HUGE double standard.

Sir, if you find that you do not have the time to devote to learing the rules of this encylopedia then you might find your time better spent elsewhere. NeoFreak

And let people like you disparage others pages. I think not. I will do my best, that is all I can do. If it isn't good enough for you, I'm sorry. Its good enough for me and that is all that counts.

mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Again please do not attack my character. If you have any complaints about my edits then take them to an admin. Aslo what is "good enough for you" is not neccisarily good enough for Misplaced Pages. NeoFreak

You are always civil and never taking a stance of superiority towards others, eh? I can see that very cleary here, I must say. And allow me to point out that I have read and enjoyed (to various degrees, depending on the book) Mr. Goodkind's books up until Chainfire; apparently the fact that I am capable of calmly and reasonably discussing the books and their contents, and of seeing bad things as well as good things, makes me a fanatic. Interesting definition. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I will happily admit to early editing on TG's page because I did not like what was there. It was biased in a majorly negative way and had several negative POV content. As well as some major mis-information. I was not aware of just how things work...or the rational behind it. so sue me! I learned of what was happening to TG's Wiki page on westros message board where they were talking about thin very thing, vandalizing Goodkind's Wiki page. And we have seen a lot of it! One person was even banned when I presented proof to GRRM himself. I am not so easily fooled by supposed "I'm a neutral interested party, so I'm going to edit TG's page because it has positive content".

I appluad your corrective action of any vandal. Every page should conform to wikipedia rules and have a NPOV. NeoFreak

You may have noticed that some of the people you call fanatics, sockpuppets, Goodkind-haters, and so forth (among which myself) have supported the removal of things that were negative POV. Indeed, looking at my edits, I fail to see how *any* of them warrants the accusations you make against me, or it would have to be the fact that the paragraph about "uplifting stories" didn't belong in the Fantasy/novelist section, and that I removed it while explicitly stating I left it as a comment in case someone could fit it in in a place where it did fit. But then, I will not hold my breath waiting for reasonable behaviour from you. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

What I do ask for is fairness and honesty. But I will not be holding my breath as I wish to continue to live....

I’ve said time and time again, as “I” read the reason for Wiki is to be unbiased and “encyclopedic” in nature…. The is not a play ground for trolls to edit anything of a positive or impressive nature off of a page. When these people edit and it is reverted, they just call on their edit buddies to jump in the fray and back them up. I’m a bit more honest than that. Fact is you very rarely find many Goodkind fan’s on here, because they have better things to do with their lives…like LIVE them” than try to bash someone else. Goodkind’s fans are of a caliber that refuses to waste their time with such petty trolls Who only want to make TG look bad. Fact is they know better and are not bothered by it. They feel that these people show their true nature and lack of character by their actions. Really Goodkind fans and not your “fantasy” fanatic fans… That’s because Goodkind’s Novels appeal to a more mature mindset. One grips the mind of like-minded people with Honor and Morals. People who value ethics and hold they ground, while nobly avoiding such petty battles as these fanatics wage.

Again, please refrain from name calling and posts that relflect assumed superiority as it is unconstructive and doesn't help anyone. NeoFreak

MY only reason for editing is to place accurate and fair information. Something worthead, Paul Willocx (suddenly out of the wild blue), neo that is being fought against, and they are being allowed to win

mystar68.188.220.8 03:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Again please refrain from these kind of attacks unless you are ready to take your issues to an admin. NeoFreak

Kindly give me a single place where I fought against accurate and fair information. You can't? I thought as much. And given paragraphs of this kind, your claim to moral superiority in the arguing here is absurd. While we're at it, I would think Mr. Goodkind's objectivist philosophy advocates standing up for one's opinion, and not mindlessly following the opinion of others. Apparently you have a problem with people who do that, as testified by your claim that all real Goodkind fans must think the same way. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm very happy that you desire to participate and help make this a better article. Your close relationship with Mr. Goodkind puts this article's potential in a realm far beyond most as you could prove to be an enourmous resource should you so choose to be one. I look forward to being able to edit with you in the future. NeoFreak 04:39, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would agree, my close relationship is an asset to this page. But unless you've read all of Goodkind's works, all of his interviews, all of his Audio clips and all of his on camera appearances, I simply do not see you as being effective in any kind of editing. A person has to know the material they are working with. You have shown no idea of what Goodkind or his works is about. Sorry, but that is just my take on it.

mystar68.188.220.8 05:30, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would disagree that an editor that has not read or covered every piece of Terry Goodkind material is not capable or qualified to contribute to this artilce. I'm sorry to hear that you feel that way as it is unconstructive and contrary to what wikipedia is all about. Also please note that I have made minor edits to your posts here for ease of review and have not chaged the substance of any of your posts.

It is my belief at this point that there is no other option than to ask for an offical mediation. Would you be willing to engage in an offical mediation MyStar? NeoFreak 05:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

As I suspected, you've never read any Goodkind, so you have no knowledge of what his books espouse, and there fore you have no idea what materian is pertinate or not. Editing is one thing, but Wilcox and you have simply tried to remove content without knowing if it is pertinate or not. And you pop on right off the bat and remove logical content simply to amuse yourself...because you somehow think "you" are the "consensus".

As I've said, I'm an honest man, I see your contriving even if you refuse to admidt it. mystar68.188.220.8 12:31, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Do spell my name correctly if you're going to make absurd claims about me. Paul Willocx 15:17, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to make a couple of brief points.

• First, although I admit I am a fan of A Song of Fire and Ice, I've never made a single edit to any of the associated articles on Misplaced Pages. I have done a fair amount of editing in literature, however, mostly on Brian Jacques' Redwall series, Glen Cook's Garrett P.I. and The Black Company series, and David Farland's Runelords saga.
• I am most definitely not a sockpuppet. I think this would be fairly easy to deduce - everyone has their own writing style, and it's fairly easy to tell one person from another, even online.

My main statement is this: Although I can't speak for anyone else, I for one have read all of Terry Goodkind's novels (excepting Phantom - I'll get to it soon enough), and I am a big fan of TG's works. I do believe that they uplift and inspire. That's why I get up every morning and check my Misplaced Pages watchlist. That's why when I find a new discussion here on the talk page, I read it, and I formulate a response. That's why I try to use reason, Mystar. Because that's what Richard would do. He would use reason to convince you of what is right and wrong. He wouldn't resort to name calling, he wouldn't lose his cool - he would reason with you.

You ask others if they have read the Sword of Truth novels - have you read them, Mystar? If so, did you understand the messages within? Emperor Jagang rules over a cruel and wicked empire - do you think he would allow anyone to criticize him? Of course not. Richard is the one who fights for freedom, equality, and free will. Richard wouldn't try to silence his opposition, he wouldn't try to deny anyone the right to speak their mind. Instead, he would take criticism and use it to better himself and make himself a better person.

Saying that an article is non-point-of-view is just another way of saying that is has all points of view. I want Terry Goodkind's thoughts and opinions to be represented in this article, with facts and resources backing up what he has to say. I also want there to be opinions contrary to what Goodkind says, again with facts and resources backing up why this set of opinions might be true. If we provide the readers with all the information, then they will be able to make their own decisions. Let the people decide - that's what Richard would want.

Lastly, I respect TG's wishes as to what he wants posted in this article, but that doesn't mean that his quotations should be the only thing in the article. I have a hard time believing that Terry wants to squash all criticism of his series - that would make him no better than his antiheroes, and I'm pretty sure Terry has read and understood his own novels. - Runch 15:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

On another note, now that I have gotten what I wanted off my chest, I second the idea that we need official moderation. I'll make the formal request, unless you wish to do so, NeoFreak. - Runch 15:52, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I appreciate you answering the question. Yes I have not only read each of Goodkind's novels (more than 5 times each), but have been fortunate enough to discuss each book for hours on end with Goodkind over the past several years. No one, least of all me, is attempting to "silence" any one. I am however one who believes that placing negative commentary just for the sake of having something negative is wrong. That has nothing what so ever to do with silencing opposition. This is an "INFORMATIONAL" page, "encyclopedic" in nature. It is not a page where critics get to blast away and remove positive content just because they do not like Goodkind or his works.

I made some edits and additions to the article which could be construed as "criticism", yet i feel they are in no way derogatory or negative. I hope you agree. I hope to be able to prove to you that criticism need not be rude or malicious, as long as it is done in a civil manner. Runch 19:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You haven't read Phantom (a book btw that I named), so I'll leave off some of my responses, as they would directly pertain to content within Phantom and What Richard is doing. You say "I also want there to be opinions contrary to what Goodkind says".... Let me remind you Gang rape is a conscious in action.... Let the people decide you say... the gang or people raping the poor woman would agree with you! I'm sorry; allowing biased people to place a slant against Goodkind is not only unproductive, but also improper.

I think you're making rather extreme comparisons here, but I digress. I'm not here to discuss the novels themselves, if I wished to do that I would do so on a messageboard. Runch 19:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

You say "Let the people decide - that's what Richard would want"... I guess you missed the yare where Kahlan admonished Richard not to take a vote! As well as the part where Richard stated that never again would he do so again! The inherent problem is the same problem Richard had with the people of Anderith, the IO was allowed to lie and dissuade people from the truth with the improper slant. I think to myself...did "you" understand what you read?

So having "criticizing" commentary is your goal? I have a hard time with that...especially when it isn't allowed on GRRM, ASOFAI, Erickson et al. Again; I'm finding myself asking what your motive is. mystar68.188.220.8 18:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Of course criticism is allowed, in fact it should be an integral part of any good article. Did you look at the article on Issac Asimov? It's a featured article, and it has a quite lengthy section devoted entirely to criticism of his novels. Now admittedly, Mr. Asimov is deceased, so people are more willing to write criticism, but urbane, constructive criticism is acceptable in any article. Runch 19:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

by the way, Im me at mystar1959 on aim. I have something for you from Goodkind. mystar68.188.220.8 18:40, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't use AIM, but if you wish, you can email me. Just follow this link. Or if you prefer, you can just post whatever you have on my talk page (assuming it's text). Runch 19:22, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Why is it that you seem hell bent on adding someone's personal blog as reputable commentary? The inchontas thing is not a reputable source of any thing other than his personal disdain for Goodkind and the series. If you want to cite negative commentary do so with a proper interviewer. One who has at least interviewed Goodkind. Look the bottom line is this... any one can write a smear article... The only people who are smearing Goodkind here are a "few" and I do mean few people who don't like the fact that the story isn't going the way they want it to. We see that fact that Goodkind's work is gaining in great popularity, so your assertions that many are critical are un-based. Or is it ok for me to start finding people’s blogs on how they are dissatisfied whit this or that and place them on Misplaced Pages articles?

The simply solution is stop trying to smear Goodkind. If you want find a professional critic do so. But I only find peoples personal blog, wanna be critics, armchair quarterback who are saying negative things. These people hardly hold up to the test of a professional critic or having any "influence" to add rather than some Jo (I hate Goodkind and I'm going to spew it) blow out there who happens to have a blog.

I think it unnecessary. mystar68.188.220.8 19:44, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

First of all, it's a commentary not a blog, and it's well written. It's not slanderious, it merely provides a different POV. Since it's a link, it doesn't actually change the NPOV status of the article. And it's actually a perfect source for the the quote in the text. The text currently reads: "There are however some fans who are critical of Goodkind's more recent publications, which focus more heavily on Objectivist philosophy. (followed by the link to the Critical Essay at Inchoatus.com)". The text conveys that this is probably a minority opinion, and it links to commentary by a group of fans - emphasis on fans. It makes more sense in this case to link to something written by a fan than something written by an outside observer, because the cited text quotes it as being an opinion of "some fans". - Runch 20:19, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem I see is with the whole argument rather than the reference itself. "Some fans" is a clear example of weasel words, and clouds the question of whether this perspective is worth mentioning at all. I'm not sure it is (and I write as someone who agrees wholeheartedly with the essay, and indeed with most negative criticism of Goodkind's work). I don't think any Wiki article stands to gain from trying to include fan perspectives, which are impossible to verify and of dubious notability (there's a real echo chamber effect online). Do we include a link to fans who think Goodkind is one of the greatest novelists? To those that think he started well but went wrong along the way? To those who think he's a mean-spirited hack? I'd say no to all. People who look "Terry Goodkind" up in an encyclopedia don't need to see dueling amateur internet commentary. I recommend limiting all mention of literary or political criticism, positive or negative, to books, newspapers, and major, influential websites. If this means certain complaints about (or indeed praises of) Goodkind's writings are omitted, so be it: this is an enyclopedia article, not a democracy or a soapbox. Brendan Moody 20:46, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes it is weasel words, I agree with your point 100%. The problem is trying to get rid of all the weasel words and POV in this article. A critical review (positive or negative) is not out of the question but it needs to be a concise and NPOV section with clear sources. A amateur review is out of the question to include the one from Inchoatus.com. It's all about NPOV and reliable, citable sources. NeoFreak 20:53, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

There's certain an ongoing problem with how best to be NPOV. At this point, while we're waiting for mediation, I think the best step might be to remove most of the "Influence" section and all of "Fantasy Author or Novelist?" A bare version of the article would at least remove the need for edit wars over wording tweaks, until we've all been able to air our views in a productive discussion. Brendan Moody 21:00, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I would think an immediate stop to all edits and a request for an admin to temp lock the article would be best. While no one is 100% happy with the article it won't kill anybody to leave it as is for a day or two until the mediation can begin. NeoFreak 21:03, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

References

I made some additions to the article, I think they really help out with the lingering NPOV issues. Anyway, we'll see if the edits stand up to the test of time.

What I need help with is the references. For some reasons, they are appearing with the wrong numbers and some are appearing twice in the References section at the bottom of the article. I can't figure out what's wrong with them, maybe someone else can see what I did wrong? (The weirdest part is that they look perfectly fine in the preview, but in the actual save they go crazy. Go figure...) - Runch 19:07, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

They look fine to me; the numbers match the sources used, and I don't see any appearing twice at the bottom. Where specifically do you see trouble? Brendan Moody 19:20, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Strange, maybe it's a problem with my browser or my cache. For example, the first reference appears as an instead of a . But as long as it looks right to everyone else, I don't have any problem with it. If anyone else sees it appearing strangely, then I'll go back to worrying about it. Thanks though, Runch 19:25, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Archive

198.96.2.93 added an archive box and removed a bunch of today's discussion but did not move it to an archive page. I've reverted that change and archived less recent material that doesn't seem relevant to the current disputes. If any user thinks some of the archived material should stay on this page, I invite them to restore it. The page is still pretty long, but given the ongoing issues I don't think further archiving is desirable. Brendan Moody 19:09, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

Official Moderation

Mystar, I repeat NeoFreak's question: Since informal moderation will most certainly not bring an end to this conflict, are you willing to take part in an offical mediation session? The decision is yours, but if you refuse to take part in an official mediation (as is your right), then I will make a request for arbitration. The arbitration is decided by the Misplaced Pages Arbitration Committee, and their decision is final. This could include, but is not limited to, making changes to the article that neither of us wants, or having one or more Misplaced Pages editors banned from editing for an unspecified period of time.

I will expect your reply within 48 hours, and I will make no changed to the TG article until then. If I do not hear back from you, I will assume you are unwilling to participate, and I will request arbitration. - Runch 20:38, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I second this. I really hope that Mystar is willing to engage in some mature dialouge about this through a mediation and it doesn't have to go to the level of an arbitration. If it does though I will support that as well as there will be no other choice. NeoFreak 20:45, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I too would like to see Mystar, and also 198.96.2.93, participate in mediation. There's been too much edit warring in the article, and we need to have a civil discussion about various issues and come to a consensus so that a stable, mutually agreeable article will be produced. Brendan Moody 20:51, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

The problem with civil discussion is that Mystar tried that in the beginning, and you all took a condesending attitude toward him for trying (and being a newb at wiki at the time) to prevent vandalism on these articles. From what I can see present on this talk page currently, is nothing but NeoFreak goading Mystar into a very defensive position by using a "holier-than-thou" attitude toward Mystar. This is not only disrespectful, but is unproductive. Mystar is here to try and make sure that the information in the article is accurate. And please, don't patronize me by asking me to "not call you names" I am just stating what I have read in this discussion page. If you have a problem with my comment, re-read the page.

NeoFreak. You have stated yourself that you are editing Terry Goodkind pages simply because Mystar edited something on George R. R. Martin's page, and you decided to follow him back to other pages he edits. You're words, not mine. That sounds an aweful lot like cross article retaliation.

Now, as for the content of Mystar's edits here. Yes, there have been a number of POV changes he has made, but there have also be a number of changes that have been an attempt to provide accurate information in the stead of wrong information, or vandalism. There have been partial quotes added to the article that have been deliberately designed to cast a negative light on a neutral comment. If you are going to quote something make sure you get the essence of the meaning in the quote, not what you want the quote to mean.

This is where mystar has been TRYING to step in as an editor, and he's been out gunned by your "consensus" that includes inaccurate and in some places deliberately slanderous/libellous(word?) changes to the article to make Terry Goodkind appear to be something he is not. Now I have been content to let Mystar handle this as I've been busy aclimating myself to a very rigorous new job, but this truly has gone too far.

Admittedly, Mystar has a tap of positive spin into what he writes, but that is expected given his involvement. That does not invalidate what he writes, sometimes a positive attribute IS WHAT IS and is completely factual. What should occur after he writes something that has that positive spin is the spin being edited out by changing the tone of the addition so that only the facts remain, NOT removing the addition in its entirety unless it is unfactual. This goes for ever edit made: if it is true, make sure it's neutral, of it is false, remove it.

Mystar has not once added anything that is false. Positive spin, yes, but nothing he has ever written has been false.

Now, no one has qualms about a negative fact being added, if it is true, and that is where the conflict comes into being. People are citing half-truths to mean their own purpose (IE the chat lines where Terry states he is not a fantasy author being taken out of context). What Mystar has tried to do is present the complete truth of these half-truths and has been met with animosity from other editors who cannot stand the idea of Goodkind being shown as he truly is.

The negative spins stop here.

If you can get someone who is entirely unbiased to act in the capacity for Official Moderation. FTLaudWolf seems to be a really unbiased individual when they need to be. I would like you to consider approaching them for this if there are no objections. Omnilord 21:58, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I was explaining how it was I came ot this page. After Mystar went over to the ASOIAF pages and the Malazan pages and started to make sweeping edits that in the words of another editor "smacked of vandalism" I can looked into Mystars anon IP contribution list to figure out what was going on. That's when I came across this terrible situation and tried to talk to everyone to get this resolved. I hope that clears things up. I'm not here for "retribution" over anything.

All of this will be resolved in the pending mediation or arbitration. I find that I am unable to engage in any kind of constructive dialouge with Mystar but if you have any issues or questions with how I have conducted myself then by all means come over to my Talk page and I think we can come to an understanding, you seem to be a reasonable and mature individual. I simply see no aditional progress being made in this forum of discussion at this time. NeoFreak 22:11, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I am not here to pull strings or whatever it is called. I am just describing what I have read in this talk page. Mystar has been backed into a corner when he is right, and I have wiki-standard's to back that claim. As new to wiki as I am ( I just found the tilda signature thing today) I can't believe I am the one to cite this: Biographies of living persons.

Jimmy Wales has said:

"I can NOT emphasize this enough. There seems to be a terrible bias among some editors that some sort of random speculative 'I heard it somewhere' pseudo information is to be tagged with a 'needs a cite' tag. Wrong. It should be removed, aggressively, unless it can be sourced. This is true of all information, but it is particularly true of negative information about living persons."

Without knowing it, Mystar has been adhering to this policy, and the Biographies of living persons standard. I would like to draw you're attention to the fact that in the face of unsourced, or poorly sourced, negative edits, the subject of the article or someone editing on their behalf has the weight when the matter is brought up. Now, here is the problem, there are not very many acceptable, professional grade sources to base a biographical page on this living person as he maintains a certain level of privacy.

"Misplaced Pages is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid. It is not our job to be sensationalist..." Many of the edits not started by Mystar, which he has reverted, have the quality of trying to sensationalize mistaken and error information using mis-quotes and half-truths that are not viable tender in an encyclopedic environment. If you get you're facts right, Mystar will not challenge it. Remember, this is an article about a living person and as such you need to tread very cautiously when editing it because the subject of the article DOES have weight against what is said about them. While it discourages subjects from contributing, it does encourage subjects to correct erronious information and remove libel or insulting commentation that is not properly sourced. In this, Mystar has done nothing wrong, and has been doing things by the book.

I suggest everyone review Biographies of living persons and make sure you have reviewed it, know it and understand it before you make a single post more. You can be sure that Official Moderation will go into this.

Omnilord 01:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm very excited that you are persuing a constructive discussion Omnilord! This is exactly what belongs here. To start out I am familiar with the guidlines and rules dictating biographical articles on living persons. The message Jimbo was trying to convey is that all speculation and POV entires are to be deleted and not just tagged with a "". The three principl rules to govern any bio artilce (and really most others for that matter) are

• Verifiability
• Neutral point of view
• No original research

as is clearly labeled at the beginning of the referenced article. This is the point that the other editors and myself have been trying to drive home. Editor's opinions of Goodkind, his work or his stance on any issue are not allowed on Misplaced Pages. The refrencing of an outside or third party's opinion if it is relavent and citable is allowed.

This current situation we find ourselves is in fact covered in Biographies of living persons and is repeated for ease of review here:

"Well-founded complaints about biographical articles from their subjects arrive daily in the form of e-mails to the Misplaced Pages contact address, phone calls to the Foundation headquarters and to Jimbo Wales, and via postal mail. These people are justifiably upset when they find inaccurate or distorted articles, and the successful resolution of such complaints is a touchy matter requiring ongoing involvement of OTRS volunteers and paid staff."

"Frequently the problem is compounded when the subject attempts to edit their own article to remove problematic content. Since such people may not be regular Wikipedians, they are unaware of our policies, and are often accused of vandalism or revert warring when they are in fact trying to edit in good faith."

It further covers that all biogrpahies of living persons should be written responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone. Concerning material that is defamitory to a living person (of which I have seen none) is covered quite simply as

"Unverified material that could be construed as critical, negative or harmful in articles about living persons should be removed immediately, and should not be moved to the talk page. The same applies to sections dealing with living persons in other articles. Real people are involved, and they can be hurt by your words. We are not tabloid journalism, we are an encyclopedia."

This covers material such as "Many people think that Terry Goodkind likes to eat babies" or "Terry Goodkind is rumored to smell bad". This does not cover critacal review of his works. This also does not cover a group's opinion about him if it can be cited and is relavent as covered in Reliable Sources.

Mystar has in fact been in violation of the rules governing Misplaced Pages editing as several editors have attempted to point out to him. Of course the details and some of the rather obscure rules about editing Misplaced Pages can be a challenge for many new editors and this is only aggravated when dealing with the especially complex issue of "Living Persons Biographies" but I'm very glad to see that you have taken measures to learn more about wikipedia's rules as this is a sign of a good editor that is ready to really contribute to wikipedia in a tangible and effetive manner! Best of luck. NeoFreak 01:35, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

In reply to Omnilord: it would appear you have read the article and some of its editing history, but not the talk page; else you would not fail to understand why mystar is as unpopular as he is. Though if you have read the editing history, you should also have seen the occasions where mystar reverted attempts at altering the article without any further justification than "Terry liked the article the way it was", which as I then pointed out is not an argument. Now I suggest that you do read the talk page, and realize that mystar is not the only one of the main contributors here who has spoken out against or removed negative POV against Goodkind - however, he is the only one who has thrown tantrums when positive POV was removed, when sections that weren't relevant to the place they were in were removed, or when people did attempts at clarifying or rewriting sections without any negative spin in it. I see he has been improving in that regard the past day; if that is due to your influence, I hope you will continue to support him, though I also hope you will prove more willing to see things from a different light on the accompanying talk page. Paul Willocx 16:30, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I have the impression that mystar's edits in the past days have been far more constructive, more willing to acknowledge that there are different opinions among the SoT readers, and less likely to just entirely revert changes he doesn't like.

In all fairness I think some of the things he objected to (though not all) were indeed negative POV. Given that, it seems a good deal more likely now that we can reach a version that people can agree on, imho. Paul Willocx 14:06, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

I will agree that Mystar seems to be making slow but steady progress in regards to his edits. While we wait for his response on the question of moderation, I've been seriously thinking about how we should proceed with this article. I'd like to explore more thoroughly a suggestion made earlier by Brendan Moody:

Probably the best way to make this article NPOV (and thus end our current conflict) would be to remove any and all material that is not a fact. This means removing any and all opinions, whether they be Terry Goodkind's or anyone else's. As you might guess, this would remove a good deal of the article, leaving us with pretty much only the following sections: Biography, Bibliography, Awards, References, and External Links.

Although this would certainly make the article NPOV, I am somewhat loathe to remove most of what I consider to be quality information. If you look through some of the featured articles on authors that I previously listed for Mystar, you will find that those articles are quite extensive and have a good deal of "criticism" or discussion of "themes" in those author's novels and in their lives. Admittedly, those authors are also deceased, and the living persons biography standards no longer apply.

I'd like to know everyone else's thoughts as to this suggestion. Is getting rid of most of the article a good solution, or is that merely avoiding the problem? Thanks for your input, Runch 14:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

For the record, I was suggesting that removal as a temporary solution to prevent edit warring until we mediate/moderate/arbitrate. I don't think we need to permanently remove all opinions; we just need to be scrupulous about avoiding giving undue weight to any side. A well-sourced section presenting notable views on Goodkind's work would absolutely be beneficial to the article. Brendan Moody 17:04, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

~sighs~ You people just don't have a clue do you... You are awaiting an answer I already gave you. The problem is you only see what you want and expect to see. I said quite clearly I have no problem with mediation, as long as a neutral and unbiased person can be found.

Neo you are no more (and much less so as by your own admission followed me back here and then decided to wreak havoc in retaliation), important as an editor than I, or even Goodkind (IF he ever decided to get off his ass and get the internet ;p) for that matter. You assume a pose of superiority when nothing can be further from the truth. You baby-sit ASOFAI/GRRM like it is your own baby. I asked for legitimate citation. Simply saying that the link is enough is not good enough nor is it according to the rules. It would take a week of Sundays to muddle through those pages to find the material you claim is sourced. Double standard indeed! Secondly, you have eliminated any opposing opinion, that which you all seek to ardently to plaster here on Goodkind's page...again double standard!

I have no faith in any of you. I see no honor of any of you. I do see now that you are suddenly back peddling, saying that ":::The problem I see is with the whole argument rather than the reference itself. "Some fans" is a clear example of weasel words, and clouds the question of whether this perspective is worth mentioning at all. I'm not sure it is (and I write as someone who agrees wholeheartedly with the essay, and indeed with most negative criticism of Goodkind's work). I don't think any Wiki article stands to gain from trying to include fan perspectives, which are impossible to verify and of dubious notability (there's a real echo chamber effect online). Do we include a link to fans who think Goodkind is one of the greatest novelists? To those that think he started well but went wrong along the way? To those who think he's a mean-spirited hack? I'd say no to all. People who look "Terry Goodkind" up in an encyclopedia don't need to see dueling amateur Internet commentary. Brendan Moody"

I fail to understand how you can so openly miss the fact that is what I've been saying and editing...all along! Again you will only see what you expect to see and want to see... I think Wizards First Rule is so very applicable to you guys.

The fact of the matter is "this is an encyclopedia article, not a democracy or a soapbox"(moody), but as Goodkind "IS" in fact alive and "IS" in fact still producing material his opinions of his work not only have merit but are and should be applicable with regard to understanding his work from an encyclopedic nature. Neo has never read any Goodkind, so he would have no knowledge of what the author is investing with in his books/series. That people is what "encyclopedic" knowledge is about...NOT trying to find some one who can't stand the man of his works and then only provides a biased spin...while OMITTING MUCH of the pertinent information contained within the books/Series! You cannot have you cake and eat it too. The problem is with someone like the inchonatis(sp) blog is that he has only offered up his personal opinion omitting several key elements and events to twist and misrepresent the material into only what he wants people to see. And while failing to be honest about that he has failed himself and anyone who reads his blog. He and a few other people simply wish to keep any kind of positive spin or look to this page.

The thing is IF you in fact are going to force such anti-fan perspectives to be included...then guess what, you MUST allow PRO-Fan prespectives as well. That would only be fair. You have eliminated ANY pro-Goodkind material, citing it as not allowable... The fact of the matter IS Goodkind DID burst onto the Fantasy Scene! He was here to fore an UN-known entity with in any field of authorship. His first book took the lead in any bidding for such books and it still stands to day. Eliminating the "Goodkind burst onto the...." is omitting the facts AND the truth! YOU are simply trying your best to keep the man down, to lord your control over him here. You are in fact trying to control him successful career from being so notated here. Why? What are you afraid of? I personally think I know all too well, but will keep my opinion to myself and only offer up the truth and facts.

I suggest you check your premises, as you are in contradiction to yourself!

It looks to me like Omnilord has pegged you guys and you don’t like it, so now all the sudden you want to play nice nice. As I’ve said many times I do not play games or word games. I call a spade a spade.

mystar68.188.220.8

I'm done arguing with you, you don't listen to anyone. Two quick things though:

• This is the last time I ask you to refrain from personal attacks. If it happens again I'm going to get an admin involved.
• I'm tired of your unqualified assumptions. Wether or not I'm a Terry Goodkind fan or am familiar with all his works and related media is totally inconsequential to the format of this page and the behavior of some of its editors. If it will put you at ease and allow everyone to move onto what is important I will acknowledge that I have not only read Goodkind but seen and read most of his interviews and have read and am familiar with both Ayn Rand and Objectivism.

Thank you for clarifying you position on a mediation. I will submit a request in the near future. NeoFreak 16:28, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Your insults on Talk:Terry Goodkind have gone on long enough, Mystar. If you violate the rule on personal attacks again, I will post your actions on the intervention noticeboard. - Runch 18:43, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Request one. Can one of you throw what you are seeing as personal attacks from Mystar's previous edit onto my talk page or somehow show it to me? I would like to know what you are considering Personal Attacks.

Point one. Contextually, and contentfully, there are very few citeable sources of information about Terry that are not opinionated POV in the Positive or Negative. This is the issue I have seen: when ever a Positive POV is cited, it is promptly challenged and removed, yet when a Negative POV is cited, and mystar has removed it, he is threatened with being labelled a vandal, not once, but every single time he has tried to improve the quality of the article. As far as I can tell, that in and of itself is against the No Personal Attacks policy. Albeit a number of times his edits have gone overboard, the intention has never once exceeded making sure the truth is show accurately and properly.

Point two. The best solution is to make sure that the content is complete or references complete information so that no inclussion is rendered inacurate, like the reference to the Chat Log (which was a deliberate attempt at slandering Terry's reputation on the internet). Let's face it, we all agree that allowing a lie or a half-truth is a discredit to all who view and edit wikipedia. Get the facts right and straight before editing the article. Mystar has access to the facts as they stand and the man himself. Since you cannot discount the truth of tis, there are only two options left to consider as being motivation for reverting (in place of editing) almost all of Mystar's changes: 1. a person distaste of the author and a desire to see him discredited was the reason for the edit, or 2. you just want a citeable source. Leaving #1 without any addition commentation for now (please?), #2 is addressable.

As I have said before, Terry is an extremely private individual, who guards himself and his information very carefully. As a result, there is minimal information available that is of citable quality. Let us start here. What is to be done when limited professional information is supplied about a subject that is noteworthy and has an article on wiki? You would think information the subject of the article provides would be adequate information for a biography of that subject when quoted properly (IE "Terry has said about abcde 'zxywvut...' The response from popular communities has been mixed and controversial. Those who enjoy reading his works ... While there has been considerable animosity from other communities on the internet." or something such like that. There is a constructive way of references POV as it is applicable to the subject: it is called 3rd person.

Anyway, I've said a lot in a short span. I would like to continue this using viable examples relative to this subject matter so that we can compile an accurate and factual article. I don't care for democracy, I care for the truth. Let us make that the point of consensus. 00:33, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Omni, considering all that you have just said and your previous input, I for one would highly value your input. More so than mine at this point. Though it seems that noting is going to be changed as Neo cannot even follow his own request to stop all edits, and instead has not only edited but added stark controversial content.

I do not hold out much hope for a fair out come based on these actions Neo,s own in violation of his request to stop all edits. It appears all to clear what the intent is here. Am I the only one who sees it?

Where is the mod team? mystar68.188.220.8 01:13, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please see my comments below and review main page the edit history, again. NeoFreak 01:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I would be interested in participating in official moderation for this entry. 198.96.2.93 13:46, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I just wanted to notify everyone that I have filed a request for help from an official moderator, you can all view the request here. Everyone who was previously involved in discussion on this page and explicitly expressed interest in being involved in such moderation has been notified on their individual talk pages - please be sure to sign the request within the next 7 days. Also, read the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request - if you have additional issues, add them in the "Additional issues to be mediated" section.

I want to make sure that everyone knows that moderation is a slow process, it will take time. Really though, all it is is having an additional cool head (belonging to a neutral party) involved in the discussion about how to improve the article. Specifically, we'll be addressing the issues listed in the "Issues to be mediated" part of the request.

On a side note, I'd like to thank everyone for their efforts. I think that in the last 24 hours or so, everyone has been acting in a much more civilized and constructive manner. I like the fact that we're now placing proposed changes to the article at the bottom of this discussion page. Let's not forget that the moderator will only be here to help us - we can still try and write this article collectively on our own.

We're finally getting somewhere, people, let's keep it up! - Runch 16:10, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Temporary stop to all edits

This aritlce is again on the verge of an edit/revert war and that helps nobody. I would ask that all parties please stop editing until an offical mediation or arbitration can be completed and a consensus can be reached on this article. NeoFreak 20:59, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to remind everyone to keep in mind the need for civility in a stressful discussion like this one. I've seen recent comments from both "sides" that have been insensitive or rude. Regardless of how you feel those who disagree with you have behaved, please be as polite as possible and avoid further escalation. Thanks. Brendan Moody 17:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, as I've suspected.. the only one who is expected to "stop all edits" in who? me? Neo you need to take a step back and follow your own advise here. You are the one who asked for all edits to stop, yet here you go jumping in and editing freely... S'up with that eh?

I guess I'm confused as to your intent here. YOu want moderation, and help, then you attack me for my views. Was it just to get me banned so you can have free regin? I'm baffeled at what your doing here. I see no moderation as of yet, and lo, here you go editing again placing controversial content. I would ask that you please follow your own advise, as I ma doing.

I woudl like to get this situation corrected, but that isn't going to happen if you cannot follow your own rule.

mystar68.188.220.8 01:06, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I (or anyone else here) cannot enforce a temp stop on edits, I am not an admin. It was a request so please do not revert others edits on these grounds anymore. I thought the only thing we could ALL agree on was that the content of this article was in dispute so I placed a appropriate warning template at the top of the page to advise editorial caution and urge readers to review the talk page so they could understand what was going on. I didn't change the content of the article. As for the moderation the request in is the works right now, please be patient I don't want a half-assed request put in and waste anybody's time. This is also the part where I ask you to refrian from your accusations but what's the point? You don't seem to care. NeoFreak 01:17, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Dude, I care or I woudln't be here. I care and that is my main concern. You asked for a stop to all edits that woudl include reverting the artical until it is accepted by a mod. It seems very simply to me. I don't see the problem. Not reverting the artical to its current status only allows anon to have his way and add negitive and NPOV, conterversial content. I'll not allow that to happen. Am I the only guardian of fairness here? mystarMystar 01:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

In the intrest of civility I have to take a step back as I just can't...deal with this in a constructive tone for the moment as I am on the verge of exploding. Apologies all around. NeoFreak 01:27, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I for one appreciate your honesty in showing your emotional state here. I commend your stance, and what’s more I gain a new level of respect for you taking such a stance/action. You just elevated your self in my book. Let me also clarify, I feel no animosity or anger to anyone over this. My only concern is to have the page truthful and correct, free of NPOV and biased opinion. Again, neo I do applaud your honesty.

I would be willing to take a step back IF, and only IF someone with fairness and honesty were to take a handle on this.

mystarMystar 01:34, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Personal opinion is like quicksand: Your own efforts only make you sink deeper. Only an outside hand can pull you out.

-Unknown

mystarMystar 02:59, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've touched up some wording to reduce the level of bias as well as correct some factual errors in the bio section, namely that all his books are bestsellers. Having examined a number of archives, most especially the NYT bestseller archive provided by Hawes(now listed in references), I've found that all but two are on the list, and thus corrected the statement to appear as such. -Kedlav

I don't really have a problem with the neutrality or tone of this article in a siginficant way any more. If no one else objects or still has an issue than I say we remove the POV template and resume some editing. The few edits that have been done in the past 24 hours are good edits and if that kind of thing continues I don't see any more big problems here. It's really looking alot better. NeoFreak 22:17, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. - Runch 22:55, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

For Shame

All I can say, since I'm new at this, is that many people here seem to have misunderstood Mr Goodkind's series and his message entirely. I question if they have even read the entire series at all.

The Sword of Truth Series is an inspirational masterpiece that shows the reader that they can be what they want to be and in an ideal world without fear of persecution. Reason is not to be feared, people who reject reason are because more often then not they try to twist reality for their own selfish means.

All this 'consensus' dribble is nonesense. If this site is dedicated to facts and the truth than it should worry about accuracy not mob rule consensus.

Information here should be neutral, not some foolish and obviously biased ranting.

There are a few people here who should be ashamed of themselves, but then again they may not understand why it is they should be. (Originally posted by DuDZiK)

Notice regarding solicited participation

It has recently come to my attention that Mystar has been soliciting other Goodkind fans to participate in the discussion here. It is an official policy of Misplaced Pages that such advertising is considered highly inappropriate, and that participation only to further an individual agenda (rather than to improve the whole encyclopedia) is strongly discouraged. For more information on the topic, please see this page, which details the nature of and reasons for the relevant policy. This warning applies equally to anyone who comes here from Westeros.org or any other message board containing anti-Goodkind sentiment. This dispute has gotten large enough as it is, and the best way to resolve it is through participation from more experienced Wikipedians. Thank you for your understanding. Brendan Moody 03:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

in keeping with your advise/suggestion I have altered some wording to assure all parties involved that this is not happening. If anyone were to look about Misplaced Pages has been a bone of contention for ages. Asking for input and advise is not the same thing as asking fan's to participate. I expressly ask for no partipication, any kind of posting or any kind of action from any Goodkind fan's....only input. mystarMystar 04:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Given the circumstances, I'm not sure it's such a bad thing, though I hope Omnilord will also contribute to other pages, the SoT-related ones if nothing else... actually, I just looked at his contribs, and it seems he has already done so in the past, and he had an account long before he interfered in the debate here. You might be talking about other people, who haven't posted here (yet), I suppose. Paul Willocx 09:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I've been on and off revising the articles related to terry goodkind since february. In fact all are in my watchlist. I've not been as active as maybe I should have been but other matters have been foremost in my attention, and Mystar has had (and still does have) my full confidence that he would handle matters adequately. I have also tried to just look in at least once every seven days just to be sure there hasn't been any new vandalism. Even though I am still adjusting to my new job and schedule, I will still try to make contributions toward this, I don't want to see anyone screwing up the facts when it comes to this particular subject matter. Omnilord 21:52, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Since we have the edit stop, a list of proposed changes

We can always make a list here of suggested changes that can be implemented after we end the edit stop, if there should be consensus (by which I also mean mystar and Omnilord) about them. I would suggest that people add their suggested changes here instead of in the article itself, but it seems the only people changing the article now are anons or users not involved in the talk page, so it seems unlikely that they'd read this. Oh well. So far I see two proposed changes: firstly, under "Influence", the sentence "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve" is incorrect, so it is suggested to put "had achieved" instead. Secondly, anon sees POV in the same sentence, and wants to remove the words "feat" and "achieve", to be replaced by something like "a first for the author". Paul Willocx 10:25, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

All of Mr. Goodkind's books, with the exceptions of Stone of Tears and Wizard's First Rule have appeared on the New York Times Bestseller List.. -- proposed by Kedlav Paul Willocx 10:28, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

A minor, non-controversial edit: Add the link Legends (book) to the anthology Legends. - Runch 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Arbor makes another suggestion for that grammatical error: "Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, is his first to have reached number one" etc. Arbor also suggests cutting the lines starting with "Although Goodkind" and ending on "is a little extreme", and I for one am inclined to agree. Paul Willocx 21:24, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Facts vs. Opinions

In all this discussion, it's hard to try and decipher what other people are thinking. Therefore, I'd like to post how I think we should deal with the mixture of facts and opinions that will undoubtedly comprise the "final draft" so to speak of the article.

Part 1 - Facts: All pertinent facts should be included. For example, the Biography section should be nothing but facts. (ie. Goodkind has worked as a carpenter, a violinmaker, and a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques). Mostly facts are data. However, let me point out that some quotations can be facts as well. If Mr. Goodkind makes the statement "I am an Objectivist", then that is a fact - he, after all, would be the ultimate authority on the matter of his own beliefs.

Sounds fine to me, as long as it is just facts, see huge post below, "My beefs"

Part 2 - Opinions: Opinions are a crucial part of critical commentary, whether they are Mr. Goodkind's opinions or anyone else's. For example, let's say we have the quote by Goodkind stating that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy". This is an opinion, but it is important to the article. A critical commentary would then play out like this (just an example mind you):

• Mr. Goodkind stated that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy"
  • Joe Reviewer 1 also believes that his novels have changed the face of fantasy
    • Joe Reviewer cites the heavy focus on philosophy and Objectivism as his reasons
  • Bill Reviewer 2 agrees with Joe Reviewer, but for different reasons
    • Bill Reviewer cites hordes of fans saying that the series is "wicked sweet"
  • John Reviewer 3 disagrees with the statement
    • John Reviewer 3 cites similarities to other fantasy novels, and previous novels with objectivist ties

And that would be all we'd include. There wouldn't be any conclusions (so this would be different from your typical high school English essay), because conclusions would merely be our (the editors) opinions and would also fall under the category of original research.

Anyway, that's how I was hoping to proceed with the article. Comments? Questions? - Runch 16:36, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

As long as there can be opinions to balance out TG's. Right now it is a lot of his, and a slow, hard-fought addition of other opinions. I think it's gradually improving though, which is good. WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I now have a userid, I'll see if I can figure out updating it for arbitration and whatnot. Formerly 198.96.2.93, WLU 18:47, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I think one of the best ways to clear up POV on this article is to include a "Quotes" section and move review and "Themes" sections to the Sword of Truth page. This is one way to seperate critical review of his works without giving the impression that negative views of his works are directed against his person. Thoughts? NeoFreak 12:55, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point. Paul Willocx 13:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that moving any discussion of the Sword of Truth to the SoT page would make sense, but it won't change that there will still be the issues I pointed out. What I'm really trying to gage is, how do we deal with pertinent discussions (Read:opinions!) about the SoT? Is there a place for them at all in an encyclopedia, regardless of who the opinions belong to? - Runch 15:29, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

my beefs

My current beefs with the article are as follows. I’d really like to change them, I’d like consensus first. Could someone please respond to the points in below:

1. ”Goodkind was best known as an artist of realistic marine and wildlife paintings before the release of his novels” – The reference here is to Goodkind’s home page. I consider this a biased source for any reference. Also, it is an inaccurate depiction of the source itself. On the webpage it says “He took up an interests such as marine and wildlife art, cabinet making, violin making and rare artifact restoration”. The word realistic is not there. There are no examples of paintings that I can see – they could be impressionistic, monochrome, cubist, or even Pollack-style spatters, we have no way to judge. It also does not say anything about him being known for it. By the source, he could have painted thousands of canvases and stored them in his basement, sold them for millions, fed them to cats or been rejected by every single gallery where he tried to display them. I would prefer the line read “…carpenter, a violinmaker, a restorer of rare and exotic artifacts and antiques and also painted marine and wildlife before the release of his novels.” Or something similar.
2. ”All of Goodkind's novels have been bestsellers.” – this has no citation, there’s been back and forth on it, take it out until we can get citations in, sales figures, etc.
3. ”Regardless of the series' objectivist ties, many fans were initially attracted to the series because of Goodkind's ability to write an exciting, action-packed story.” – Source? I’ve read WFR, I wasn’t attracted by this, it was just another thick fantasy book, many of which I had enjoyed before.
4. ”Phantom, Goodkind's most recent novel, reached number one on the New York Times Best Seller list, a feat which none of his previous novels had yet to achieve. ” This contradicts point 2 above as far as I can see. Reference 7 is to a blog, the when the entry was included it was speculative (“It will appear as number one on the NYT best sellers list. (most likely a week from this Sunday)”) and has not been updated with a link to the NYT. Plus, it says in the previous sentence “Phantom was number one in sales for it's first week of release.” Which is not the same thing as saying it was a best seller. So it needs a primary source to be credible as accurate – the NYT itself, perhaps a publisher’s website (not an agent’s) or something similar.
5. ”Goodkind's Sword of Truth series is generally considered a fantasy series by both readers and critics alike. The awards it has been nominated for or won are all fantasy-related, and since the series contains all the standard fantasy elements such as magic, a more or less medieval level of technology, and fictional countries, it has been marketed as a fantasy series.” – I really think this should remain in. I think it justifies itself well, the awards are referenced below, it compares elements within the novel to the wikipeida entry, and I think it passes face value for being works of the fantasy genre. In fact, I think this is pretty much beyond dispute. Fortunately I think this section has been acceptable for a while, but it does feed into the next sections.
6. “In an online chat with fans, Goodkind aserts: "I am a novelist; I am not, in the essential sense of the word, a fantasy author. To define me as a fantasy writer is to misunderstand the context of my books by misidentifying their fundamentals...The books I write are about human problems....the human dimension is the only part that matters....the characters are the defining difference in my books." – I consider this paragraph to be absurd to the extreme, and I think TG is embarassing himself. But he’s free to do that by quotation. However, I think the elipses are disengenuous, because the statement is much more extreme in its entirety. As I’ve said before, all books about humans or anthropomorphic characters all have thoughts, emotions, etc. so saying that his are different because of some unique human problems, this bothers me. I’d be happier taking it out. I think it adds a heavy bias on the part of the author, and would be more appropriate on a “Terry Goodkind is self-important” page, either in Misplaced Pages or elsewhere.
7. ”Goodkind states that it was never his intention to market his books in the fantasy genre, but that this was done due to business considerations. He has explained that his books were further classified as fantasy due to their cover art, among other things. Goodkind has since replaced the cover art for a number of his novels, but his books are still sold in the fantasy section of bookstores and classified as fantasy by on-line vendors .” I like this section because it has an easily accessible way of seeing what the rest of the world has to say about the books. Since TG has many quotes on this page, I think this adds a nice counterpoint which balances things out. Plus, I wrote it.
8. ”Goodkind was also quoted as saying that his novels have "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy," which he described as a "tired empty genre." These statements have been the source of some debate among readers of fantasy. Although Goodkind has undoubtedly combined traditional elements of fantasy with other elements of literature and storytelling, saying that he has "irrevocably changed the face of fantasy" is a little extreme.” Again, falls into the TG is self-important category. Changed the face of fantasy? There is nothing to back this up but his opinion. Unless there’s something to offset the extremity of the statement, there ain’t much reason for having it in. Adds bias, not information.
9. ”Regardless of the genre of his novels, Goodkind's main goal in writing is to inspire. Goodkind says, "I believe in writing books that inspire and uplift people. The purpose of a good novel is to provide the reader with an example of values realized….People don't want to be told that they're miserable, wretched, destructive, evil creatures. The typical person isn't interested in reading that. They want to read books about other people they can look up to, people that inspire them, people who make them feel that life is worth living." – Should be taken out for several reasons. No citation is the most minor. Another quote is a bigger, when there’s already a bunch on the page. Quotes should be used sparingly, not take up half the page. Third, and worst, this is totally his opinion. He has no idea why the average person reads his books or what people want to be told. People read books for many, many reasons, and there is no reason why TG should be considered important enough to state his opinion and have it treated and cited as fact.

Those are my thoughts, sorry for length. I look forward to the comments from the community.

WLU 20:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

2) Yeah, we do actually. But there's an edit stop. 4) Phantom did make #1, and if that isn't a criterium for being a bestseller, what is? 6) I don't know, I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with him, and I thought he put it in a much better and less offensive way there. 8) Yeah, don't think we'd be doing Mr Goodkind a service by leaving it there.

Paul Willocx 21:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

1) Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography.

If you can't cite it then you can't include it. Unless there is a viewable citable statement it is word of mouth and WP:OR NeoFreak

6) The online chat in question was not just a chat between people, but was a Q&A session with the author via IRC. Not only was this an official function jointly of terrygoodkind.com and terrygoodkind.net, it was a rare opportunity for many fans from around the world to be able to communicate as close to in person as possible at the time because Terry was not doing a signing tour.

Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages.

Did he say it? Is is citable? Is it relavent to the subject? If the answer to these three questions is yes, and I believe it is, then it can be included. NeoFreak

7) What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself.

If the source is not reliabe then, yes, it needs to go. NeoFreak

8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article.

Omnilord 01:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

As it is citable and relevent to the SoT series than it belongs on the SoT page. NeoFreak 01:57, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

FOR MODERATION REVIEW

okay, since people insist on editing, I think we should go ahead with agreeable grammar, spelling, and very basic edits that have been proposed so far, and just create a list of reversion points here for moderation to review.

No new information should be added and nothing should be removed until moderation however.

• ] - the preserved revision at time of stopped editing.

I've already said this a half dozen times in a half dozen places. The edit stop was requested by me and I am not an admin. This is not an enforceable stop and if other editors wish to be rude about then you can't revert their edits on these grounds alone. On a side note though I thought the anon's last edit was good as the "rather extreme" comment was out of line and POV. NeoFreak 03:19, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd have to agree with Neofreak about edits in general - we need not revert everything, only significant changes that involve article themes and POV statements. And I also though the removal of the "rather extreme" comment was justified, it is POV (and I'm the one who put that in in the first place! But I've seen the error of my ways, so to speak, since then, so I'd like to retract that edit if possible.) - Runch 05:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I edited a few POV positions. Can we start from there? What we have now is nuteral and unbiased. That should satisfy everyoneMystar 05:05, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well on another note your edits to the SoT page are looking really good.NeoFreak 22:02, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, it certainly is, but there might have been parts in what you cut that didn't have to go. Guess we can carefully restart from how it is now, though... Paul Willocx 09:36, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

WLU replies to comments

Here are replies to PW's comments. >"Best known" doesn't necessarily mean he was famous for them... though I guess rephrasing it won't do any harm.

-The link just says he painted wildlife and marine, as part of a list of other jobs he did. Let's let the page show the same thing.

>We actually do seem to have a source, but it hasn't been put into the article due to the edit stop. The source says all books but the first two made it onto the NYT's list.

-I checked the NYT bestsellers list for a couple months. Chainfire was on it in 2005, here's the link - http://www.hawes.com/2005/0502.htm, I recommend splicing it into the page. If someone (i.e. whoever thinks it is important that this be on the page) wants to do this for all the books, all the power to them, I don't want to make the time.

>how does it contradict it? All but two books made it onto the NYT's list, but only Phantom topped it. Not sure what defines a "bestseller", but I'd say making it onto the #1 list on the NYT isn't bad.

-Good point. The definition should be obvious from the text - "Numerous of the books have made it onto the NYT bsl, and Phantom reached #1 as of xxxx" seems like the most accurate way of putting it.

>I don't know, I was a great deal more happy with this quote after I read the Lynn Flewelling interview with Goodkind, in which he phrases it differently

So there's a link to the blog or interview, but I was thinking that all the quotations could be put in wikiquotes, - no context to judge, just TG's words. Very objective, I think (ha!). Take them off the page but put in a link to wikiquotes.

Here are replies to Omnilord's comments >Terry's careers prior to becoming an author are most assuredly private matters that will not have citeable sources other than the information Terry has shared with us through his website. He wishes that the details of where he was working and such remain private, but he has shared the information that he has taken up the roles of a carpenter, violin maker, rare artifacts restoration specialist, etc. When it comes to private matters, the only source is the subject of the biography.

-Yeah, my beef isn't with that per se, it's the 'best known for', which I've seen no evidence for, just a list of jobs. Put marine-wildlife artist in that list, not 'best as'. One of many, not the most important. The source given doesn't say anything about 'best of', so unless TG decides to edit his own page to reflect this, we don't have a source, and at that point it becomes pretty much unusable because it is TG's judgement about his own work. We need something outside of terrygoodkind.net, .org, .whatever, we need something independent.

>Now, you said it is absurb to have that chat quote and that you think it should be removed. You have two people who are willing to back you up on that: Mystar and myself. That part of the article has been a source of contention for months because it is not only a misquote and taken out of context, it was placed there specifically with the intention of causing trouble by individuals who were diliberately vandalizing the article. It has been forced to remain there, intact, dispite edit after edit by mystar, myself, and a number of others who are no longer participating on Misplaced Pages.

-Take it out, put it in wikiquotes

>What is the point? The citation is linked to a dynamically generated page that changes frequently and irregularly the content it displays. As far as I can tell, it is just a recommended reading list. I don't think Amazon.com is useful unless you are directly linking to a specific, static page because of the nature of the website itself.

-The amazon link shows that other people, notably book vendors, consider his books fantasy. TG says it isn't, if we put that in, I think we can put in people who think he is. I think amazon is a great source for this because they are neutral, and sell to the public - they market the books to people who buy fantasy. They aren't putting them in the philosophy section, because philosophers would read them and freak out. Fantasy readers do not 'cause they've got swords, magic, dragons, no computers, etc. I can't really think of a way of getting around the changing nature of Amazon, but something less know but more stable could work. Other on-line vendors who's pages don't flip all the time? The page I originally linked to categorized the book and it was in SF/F>F>High Fantasy and several other categories that started with fantasy.

>8 & 9) They are direct quotes from the subject of the essay about what his motivations and beliefs of his series have been. While these are opinions, they are the subjects opinions, and as such can be included in this article, but would never be allowable on The Sword of Truth article.

-I think changed the face of fantasy and his goals could both be in wikiquotes with a link, perhaps to a statement "TG feels very strongly about his works and defended them in interviews and during on-line chats" or essays, I don't know the original source. It's got an encyclopedic summary, it's got a link to quotes, but it doesn't have the page-biasing impact that the words themselves do. It says more about him than it does his opinions on his work. I think they would be valuable on a "What TG thinks of his own novels" page or such the like, but not raw in the text. Plus, I think that might be considered original research or such the like. Maybe not. I'd like the idea of a summary, but not so much the actual quotes in an already quote-heavy novel. Comparing his entry to Steven Erikson's (pardon my point of reference), SE is very short, has no quotes, but a very brief summary of his own opinion of what he's writing. I think it's comparable. Reference Terry Pratchett as well, also GRRM - pretty short on the author, but lots of links to their works.

Replies to mystar <WLU said> What makes it official? Do you have a reference from TOR? Since the other publishers do not send the numbers to TOR, we can't rely on TOR for a ceiling figure, but they'll definitley give a floor figure, or an accurate one for the US and Canada. <Mystar said>Well, as a fatter of mact, I do! I also have material from Goodkind, BUT, as I stated earlier, I am suggesting that we use the figure we have listed on .net & .com, as Terry is not going to make his royalty numbers public, and with good reason!

-If you have them, provide them please, and I'll stop picking at it. .net and .com are not proper sources. We need something from the company. I'd even be OK with the agent as long as we said it was from the agent, and that there are other figures (and links to both, and that the link that wasn't his agent, wasn't to terrygoodkind.net/.org). Also note that linking the page to the wiki page for TOR doesn't work - it'd have to be external, to a page on the TOR website that said "TG has sold more than 20 million" (but that would contradict the figure from the agent I think). Linking to the TOR wiki doesn't work because people can edit the page - no verifiable, and because even if it said on the page, 'sold 20 mill copies of TG books', that would need a reference. In which case, we put that original reference on the TG page. This is standard academic referencing, this is how it is done in universities, government, schools, any document that has to be relied on for veracity, and as far as I know, wiki requires it as well. Also, I just looked at what's on the page right now, and the 20 million link doesn't seem to go anywhere. If it does, it seems to go back to his private webpage again, which I still have objections to as stated in "art".

>Secondly WLU, I am going to ask politely that you take a less hostile tone with me. I stated the facts as they are. Call Tor if you wish, call Harper Collins UK and they will tell you not every publisher reports to them. If you don't like that, it is not my problem. I have source material that you are not privy to. So me I am free to make public, some I'm asked not to. I do think however that my well-known association with Goodkind' gives my points creditability. If you disagree, that's not my problem.

-I think I am being at most, curt. Not hostile. I'm trying to keep my points brief, and just include the things that I think are relevant to the question. Calling TOR and HCUK won't help, we need webpages. If you have source material, give it. If you can't, it is not referenced. I think your association with TG detracts from your credibility, it detracts from your neutrality and makes your actions very close to having TG hiimself editing the page, which there are recommendations about. Just is there is reason to distrust what I say too. I could easily say I called TOR and they said his sales figures were abysmal, no-one can check this except me, and someone else who calls TOR, and has the same problem of verification, which is why we need a 3rd party website. I'll try to moderate my tone while retaining brevity. I'd like to think I'm using the same brevity with other users, but I could be wrong.

>Ok, I see a pattern here already. WLU, if all you are going to do is to argue and attempt to shoot anything down, I have a problem with you. I already am of the mind you just jumped in to be a fly in the ointment on this situation. We have no knowledge of you other than popping up and jumping on this bandwagon, and as I stated it is already looking like you are here just to decry any information I offer.

-The peer review process works to improve the quality of submissions. I'm not shooting you down, I'm requesting valuable information that you say you have, and will do nothing but enhance the article. Please reply to my points, not to the brevity of my association with the userid WLU. The talk page is designed for discussion to improve the article itself.

>Goodkind being a well-known artist is a well-known fact. If you took the time to read any interviews (written, audio or otherwise), articles, Statements from Goodkind and the myriad of pictures I've posted of his works on the MB's you would not be asking that question. You will find various statements about Goodkind's work as an artist. All you have to do is to look. It is not incumbent upon me to proof out to you what we already know, just to please you.

-It is incumbent on you to provide proof, not to please me but to justify what you are posting and editing. That he has produced realistic paintings I could believe. That he is well known for them, I do not. Because I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere except here. The works themselves are not sufficient. Is there a different page we could talk this out on? I don't want to soak up more of TG discussion page. I think I have included an anonymous e-mail in my signup, so you could even talk to me via that address. If not, I might have my own page on wiki. The penguins link you provided is again to tg.net, is there a link to the gallery's website? A history of showings? A review by a newspaper? See NeoFreak's replies to your postings, I agree and would be repeating further if I discussed more.

>This "is" after all a page about Goodkind and what "he" is presenting. Not what you want his to present, but these are "his" books and as he has placed some specific situations and spend some amount of time crafting his work to show symbolism, that it becomes nessary that that fact be included as it would at that point be "encyclopedic" in nature. That being Goodkind is using it to make a point. It is not as you are trying to espouse "an inherently personal thing". It is in fact a part of what he is providing for the reader. Nothing It is a page about TG, not what he is presenting. If you want to, start a page on his symbolism. I won't comment on that, I would only edit for grammar and spelling. Possibly references, but that would also probably be considered original research. Symbolism is a characteristic of personal reality, see constructivist epistemology for more on this (if I managed to work the link).

>I am going to warn you NEO for your "accusatory manor" and attempting to make everything I say out to be an attack. I've made no attacks. I pointed out facts and personal attacks on me. Werthead, was infact making several Negitive and biased edits. I corrected them I disagree with you Mystar. I have found your posts to be very accusatory. I don't know if an arbitration will settle this or not, but I hope so. I am trying to improve as an editor, note that I have not insulted you, I have not called you names or accused you of anything except bias, which can also be said of me, and I've admitted it. I'm ignoring most of your posts because I don't really find them germane.

In summary - how about we put in general comments about what TG has said in the past, with counter-examples, link the general statements to wikiquotes where they can be retained in resplendent glory, someone who is motivated can find a specific link from each book to a NYT bestsellers list, a modification to his 'previous jobs' section to remove noteworthy re: paintings. Mystar can start a page about the symbolism and work with people who have read all the books in the series, as well as the major works of Ayn Rand, and show the objectivism links there. Everything subject to revision and adequate citation. I'll start with Chainfire. Comments? Please, if there is a better way to edit that's neater and more readable, please let me know. I'm doing this in a word processor and pasting it back into Talk:TG edit pages 'cause it's the only way I can do it coherently. If Mystar wants to discuss what should be a proper standard of proof with me on my own wikipage, I'll be happy to, or if I can figure out the e-mail thing. Apologies for length! Also, I archived a previous posting that was quite long, on fantasy author versus novelist. 64.230.1.241 04:33, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Wow. I'm not really following alot of that post, I'll have to reread it when I have some more time. About your purposed "counter-examples": this is not a place for a point, counter-point of TG's views. This is a biographical article that should contain the relavent material about him, not a place to argue about his views. This kind of thing is not only out of place but it can bring arguably justifiable complaints of POV. Leave the (as always relavent and citable) critical review of his works where it belongs: on those work's articles. NeoFreak 04:41, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Fantasy or not: a better quote (imho)

In that Lynn Flewelling interview, there is the following paragraph:

"I've always said fantasy is sort of 'stealth philosophy'," he explained. "It allows you to say things that sound very dramatic and get away with it. If you had characters in modern fiction say the same things as they're driving down the street in an Oldsmobile they'd sound ludicrous! Fantasy allows you bend the world and the situation to more clearly focus on the moral aspects of what's happening. In fantasy you can distill life down to the essence of your story."

Which, to me, sounds like a good explanation of Mr Goodkind's stance on the "fantasy or not" thing: he seems to say that it is fantasy, but that he uses fantasy as a tool to make his philosophy clearer, because in fantasy the situations are a bit more extreme, things are a bit more primitive, etc. So, what does everyone think of adding (part of) that paragraph? Given the controversy, I won't do it unless I get a go ahead from both WLU and Mystar, otherwise we're back to where we started. Paul Willocx 08:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

As I've said all along I do not think WLU has any thing to add. He remains annon, and refuses to divulge his real identity, thus making anything he does fully suspect. Reading his contrib’s is like reading a blank book. We see his/her interest is in negative content and condemning everything positive about Goodkind. SO you'll excuse me if I do not have any faith in either asking for or using input from WLU. Perhaps IF WLU were to divulge his user name at ASOIAF it would go a ways into WLU's creditability.

As for your last message, I fail to see how adding Lynn Flewelling on a Goodkind page is of any merit? I guess I'm confused. Either Goodkind can make a comment upon his works or he cannot. Adding content from someone else who is saying the same thing, as Goodkind is redundant and unnecessary.

The problem is simple. Goodkind states "I don't write Fantasy, in the general sense of the word". I find that very clear and free of any ambiguity. Goodkind further goes on to define his stance by adding, " I write stories that uplift and inspire...." I write about heroes...". Thus defining his stance. Yes his stories have all the elements "of" fantasy, and are set in the fantasy genera, but they are more then your typical epic fantasy story. So along comes people who's only desire is to smear Goodkind and take him down a peg for his stance, by editing his page. These so called genera purest do not have any desire to allow Goodkind any kind of voice about how he attributes his works. Personally I feel let people read his pages with out the section Fantasy -----. We have the Epic Fantasy tag on his page and that should suffice. If we start adding what you're suggesting, then they will vandalize the page by attempting to add NPOV and personal rant/blogs decrying Goodkind as this or that in their own opinion. I refuse to allow that to happen.

I would love to see a section (as others have) with a direct quote or two from Goodkind. It is after all a page ABOUT "Goodkind". It should have his opinion of his work. The problem with that is only people who despise him and want any readers to be tainted. Last night I compiled several sections from two message boards where these people are saying this very thing. They even go as far as to request that people come in and alter Goodkinds' pages to reflect NPOV, so that people will be turned off before they read or formulate an opinion. I also have a direct post showing that one person was identified for such action and banned for it, yet this person was asked to do so by members of this MB. I highly suspect one of them is in fact WLU, given WLU's stance so far.

At any rate, I am for building Goodkind's page constructively and in a manor that does not smear or demoralize his works.

Just my humble opinion. Mystar 14:11, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Cite error: The named reference Jimbo was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
2. "Hawes' Archive of New York Times Bestsellers from 1994-2005".

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