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Culling needed

I have finally read it. It is interesting, but much too detailled to be an encyclopedia article. There is clearly a lot of apologetics and polemics to cut out in nearly all sections. It does not have to be rewritten; all the information is there, just too much of it. I'd like to help here without causing another edit war. I would like to edit one section at a time with a pause after each section edit for discussion. Comments? RelHistBuff 16:20, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article is much too long. When there has been condensation in the past, in this and affiliated articles, there has inevitably been backfilling and aggressive POV pushing. However, I see no harm in pressing forward with some aggressive cutting by a fresh eye.--Mantanmoreland 16:43, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

First step taken. I did not touch the lead section yet. I figure that could come last. I also did not touch Section 1 Early life. For Section 2, I cut the description of the nominalist system. There was an HTML comment saying that it was supported by a reference, but the specialised topic on theology is out-of-place in an encyclopedia article. RelHistBuff 07:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

As the first edit was small, I went on to section 3 before pausing. Here I acted a bit more boldly. In my view the section is an important description of his understanding of justification of faith before the major controversies began. It is a very good introduction to how he developed. However, I found the details on his understanding of God to be rather heavy reading and oriented to the Luther specialist. RelHistBuff 08:00, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree that the article should be smaller, but I think that, rather than remove the material entirely from the article, we should move the information to new "main" articles.

Let me suggest again that those of us who are going to work regularly on the article read a few print encyclopedia articles on Luther. It will give us insight on how secular encyclopedias speak about Luther and his significance. It will give us some idea of the level of detail they have found crucial. Lastly, let's discuss here first major changes before we make them.

Also, Mantanmoreland, I would appreciate it if you would focus on the content of this and not make attacks on other editors. It also would help if you would actually offer specifics and cites to support changes that go beyond your opinion on these things. After all, this is about presenting information about Martin Luther from secondary sources, not what you or I or anyone else think about the man. --CTSWyneken 10:43, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Stop the nonsensical "complaint about nonexistent personal attacks" intimidation tactic. It's getting old, CTS.--Mantanmoreland 13:41, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This phrase: "backfilling and aggressive POV pushing" is getting old, too. As is ""complaint about nonexistent personal attacks." --CTSWyneken 14:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you stop complaining about nonexistent personal attacks, you won't be asked to stop. It's a transparent intimidation tactic. You trot it out every time there is a content dispute.--Mantanmoreland 14:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

My intention was to discuss as seen in my first paragraph at the top of this section of the talk page. I did go ahead boldly as recommended by Misplaced Pages (but with the intention to discuss, as clearly stated). However, I guess I have stepped into a minefield of which I would rather avoid. Please go ahead and revert my changes and I will just quietly observe. RelHistBuff 10:53, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You should be bold as another editor noted. Some editors in this page simply do not want significant cuts in this article, and will talk you to death on the talk page to beat you down and wear you out. It has happened time and time again in this talk page, and has resulted in an extremely high burnout rate among editors. You made a good, common-sense edit.--Mantanmoreland 13:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

No need to quietly observe. I also have no problem with you having waded in on the article itself. Please note that I did not bring everything back.

What I would ask is that we discuss major changes first. For instance, there is some language in the paragraph you left that can go and can be rewritten. There is some material in the quote from the Smalcald Articles that we may not need to keep.

But this is section discusses the heart of what Luther is all about. This needs to be handled carefully because of this. Also, since we've been asked by others not to use summary language that calls Jesus the Christ, we have had to depend upon quotes from Luther to do this. Since, for Luther, theology is all about Christ, you can understand the challenge.

The minefield here mostly has to do with the strain between editors over the material on Luther and the Jews. My note to Mantanmoreland is mostly because he has repeatedly called the article biased, but doesn't seem to want to get into specifics. I'm just asking him to focus on the article. And that is all I really want to say on that subject. --CTSWyneken 11:08, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to back RelHistBuff on this one. To mount a discussion on the Talk Page before making edits does not fit well with the principle "be bold". Much faster progress is made by editing first and referring the changes to the Talk Page for evaluation. Others may then restore some of the cuts and a form of consensual progress results within the actual article; it is more efficient that way. RelHistBuff has an excellent nose for dense mouldering content inappropriate to an encyclopedia and should, in my opinion, continue wielding his scythe.qp10qp 13:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree. This was a good cut. Also I disagree with CTS. It is not just the Jewish section that presents difficulty, as this demonstrates.--Mantanmoreland 13:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Be bold works well when there isn't a lot of controversy surrounding an article. On one like this, witness Matanmoreland's way of responding to my restoration. Discussion here doesn't have to be lengthy. For example, if a moment had been taken to ask about the material cut, he would have discovered that I find this subject crucial and we wouldn't be having this kind of discussion.

If you really want to see why this is important, try pruning the Martin Luther and Antisemitism section. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CTSWyneken (talk • contribs)

Since RelHistBuff was kind enough to invite me to revert, please discuss here why you feel the section I restored should go. Are you saying that Law and Gospel and Justification by Faith are not important themes in Luther's theology? --CTSWyneken 14:20, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Look at the first comment in this section. I don't have anything to add to that.--Mantanmoreland 14:33, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I left in the final paragraph which had been omitted, which I trust resolves any reasonable objection to the edit. --Mantanmoreland 14:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I would appreciate it if you would at least put the rest of the material here. In light of previous discussions, I believe it important to quote Luther directly. The Smalcald Articles quote is among the clearest statements of the doctrine available, and, given some time to work with the section, can be reduced in size, along with language in the first paragraph, to make the points clear. Please do at least this much. --CTSWyneken 14:56, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What do you mean by "here"?--Mantanmoreland 14:58, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

This talk page. --CTSWyneken 15:02, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, I have no problem with that. Here is the quote. I think this quote is repetitive of the preceding paragraph:

The first and chief article is this: Jesus Christ, our God and Lord, died for our sins and was raised again for our justification (Romans 3:24-25). He alone is the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world (John 1:29), and God has laid on Him the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:6). All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, in His blood (Romans 3:23-25). This is necessary to believe. This cannot be otherwise acquired or grasped by any work, law, or merit. Therefore, it is clear and certain that this faith alone justifies us...Nothing of this article can be yielded or surrendered, even though heaven and earth and everything else falls (Mark 13:31).

I don't think it's necessary to quote from Luther on this. Long quotes are a good place to start when culling.--Mantanmoreland 15:11, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The length of the quotations can be discussed, certainly, but we must have them. Several editors insisted that we use the term Christ in connection with Jesus only in quotation. Since we're talking about central concepts here, quotations become essential. In good faith, then, I ask that you put the quote you've removed here so that both the words and the source can be preserved for use in recasting the first paragraph, which needs work. --CTSWyneken 15:23, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

All have sinned and are justified freely, without their own works and merits, by His grace...

That would do, I should think. qp10qp 15:40, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm confused. CTS, the omitted quote was replicated above. What else are you talking about? Also I think you're overstating what needs to be done here. Let's move on.--Mantanmoreland 15:44, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for the confusion. When posts are added above the page I sometimes do not see them. I will drop by later, when a bit of time permits (we're gearing up for the beginning of a school year here) and see if I can make some suggestions for the section. Maybe Drboisclair will drop by or others. And, no, qp10qp, that will not do. It does not explain Luther's theology, based upon that passage, and is really not what we need for this part of Luther's story. This part should be about Luther's "evangelical discovery" of the meaning of several Biblical terms that resulted in his signature theology, adopted whole or in part by most Lutheran and Protestant traditions. The central passage there is Romans 1:16-17. --CTSWyneken 15:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, but now I am confused about something else. The section now reads well and explains things clearly. I still don't understand the need for that quote.--Mantanmoreland 16:03, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Liturgy and Church government

In sympathy with RelHistBuff's methods, I took a scythe to the opening paragraph of the above section. I don't expect my whole cut to survive, but hopefully it won't just be reverted without thought.qp10qp 16:57, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't see why it should not survive. It is a good cut.--Mantanmoreland 17:25, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If you were to read up on Luther you would see that it is not a good cut. It could be tweaked, but it should be kept in place.--Drboisclair 17:31, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You must tweak it, then; please do, that's the point: what one person gets wrong another can make good, but along the way some verbiage gets binned. I've just thinned out the section on Luther's Bible as well.qp10qp 17:46, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

In my concern with Manta's wholesale deletions I have not considered your helpful edits. I offer you my apology. --Drboisclair 19:30, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

There were no "wholesale deletions." There were good edits by RealHistBuff that you reverted wholesale. This is why there is such a high burnout rate among editors, when they run into this kind of monolothic obstructionism. I think we need to revisit the whole issue of employees of the Lutheran Church editing this article. This kind of thing is intolerable and must stop.--Mantanmoreland 20:42, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

We are all anonymous here. You repeat the vicious attacks against a particular editor here. As a person who edits Roman Catholic articles on this website you do not share in the ecumenical attitude of the Roman Catholic Church. I will repeat, since I am impelled to by this unfair accusation: an LCMS employee is never paid to edit these articles. The policy of the LCMS is to let the truth be told no matter how embarrassing. I would ask User:Mantanmoreland to stop repeating this false accusation.--Drboisclair 16:14, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop wholesale reversions

Drboisclair has reverted en masse every reversion that has been made on this page today except for the most recent one on Luther's Bible, and that's because it hadn't been made yet. These wholesale reversions must stop. This is precisely the problem that has beset this article for months. Every time a good faith effort is made to trim it, the trims are reverted and we are back to square one.--Mantanmoreland 18:10, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

The same can be said for wholesale deletions. --CTSWyneken 18:51, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Mantanmoreland, why don't you stop disrupting the careful editing of this article. All you do is cause discord.--Drboisclair 19:24, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

You've reverted all of RelHistBuff's edits. This is precisely the kind of rigidity and bad faith "brick wall" obstructionism that has prevented this article from being trimmed in the past. Attempting to drive a wedge between editors -- this ham-handed game of saying "your edits are OK but the other guys are awful" -- is another old game you've played in the past. I hope RelHistBuff hasn't been driven away by your tactics.--Mantanmoreland 20:39, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

What in the world is "ham-handed"? One of your original phrases?--Drboisclair 16:09, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Theology of Martin Luther

I note that CTS has begun an article entitled Theology of Martin Luther. I think that this might be a useful endeavor if it is accompanied by removing from this article the lengthy, hagiographic material that another editor attempted unsucessfully to remove. However, what if it is yet another tribute to Martin Luther, and is just going to replicate what is in this article, I don't see the need for it and I shall ask for its deletion. Also I suggest that it might be duplicative of other articles (on Lutheranism, obviously) as well. --Mantanmoreland 21:36, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Once again you are engaging in unhelpful leveling of charges. This is not civil and ad hominem in nature. Please stop.

If you would care to read my posts above, you will see that I've suggested this before. If you go into the archives, you'll see I've suggested it many times before.

All of this is per the recommendations of WP:FA. If you could just give us a break, maybe something can get done here and on pages connected to it. --CTSWyneken 22:50, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

First, stop the nonsensical whining about "leveling of charges." This is an intimidation tactic and it needs to stop.

Theology of Martin Luther is duplicative of this article. I'd like to hear from some other opinions on this article than yourself and Drboisclair. You do not "own" Martin Luther articles.

Unless this article is to be cut way back in size, which will require the brick wall to give way to some trimming, I really don't understand the point of the article. --Mantanmoreland 23:13, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Not once have I ever said I "own" this or other articles. No one owns it, not even you. Yours is only one opinion here and your constant sniping at Boisclair and I has to stop.

As to this and the new article: my intent, repeatedly stated, is to follow the advice of the WP:FA standards. Please explain how rolling out a new article in preparation for applying summary language here is out of step with this or other guidelines, standards and policies?

As to the content of the new article, please discuss it there. If you have no interest in the subject, then find something else to work on. If you are really interested, here or elsewhere, then please cite the literature and contribute, rather than just finding a thousand ways to say "I don't like it." --CTSWyneken 00:29, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mantanmoreland is wrong in posting that an article on the theology of Martin Luther is "duplicative." It would help shorten this main article. Mantanmoreland will not be satisfied until Luther is pictured as a villain in this resource. Anything bad that may be said about him will suit him. I think that his own denominational POV is just as much at work in him as he alleges is in others. He is content to be the perpetual antagonist. He accuses others of sniping when he does it constantly.--Drboisclair 00:58, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

"It would help shorten the article." If the new article shortens this article on at least a word for word basis, it may be acceptable. Frankly I am not sure. The ham-handed reversions of the trims today indicate that any effort to make reasonable cuts is impossible.

Right now the new article is patently unacceptable as a duplication of this one. If you want it not to be, stop reverting good-faith trims of this article.

Drboisclair, your constant personal attacks, whining and foot-stomping are getting old. You tried that on Doright and drove him away. You've worn out whole phalanxes of editors. Hopefully your antics and hostile and unreasonable behavior have not already frightened off the editor who made the original cuts that were unjustifiably reverted by the two of you. At one point today I thought it might be possible to get some kind of consensus and compromise, and then down came the brick wall.

This is a nonsectarian encyclopedia and it is for laypeople. It needs to be written with that in mind. It is not an internal Lutheran church organ. It is not, as I said, your property. You behave as if it is, no matter what you may say to the contrary.--Mantanmoreland 02:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Mantanmoreland, why are you here in the first place? What do you know of Luther? You are disingenuous at best when you accuse me of personal attacks when your pitiful post is saturated with them against me. If Doright is driven away, I certainly had nothing to do with it. Knowing his track record, his constant cutting and pasting accusations have come back to haunt him. I resent and protest your antagonistic rhetoric. "You've worn out whole phalanxes of editors. Hopefully your antics and hostile and unreasonable behavior have not already frightened off the editor who made the original cuts that were unjustifiably reverted by the two of you." This is clearly an exaggerated false accusation. Your pontificating: "This is a nonsectarian encyclopedia ..." does not mean that the richness of information that is provided on Luther by people who have actually studied him should be trashed by the likes of you. As my third grade teacher used to say about problem students: "you are a cinder in a cold refreshing drink."--Drboisclair 15:36, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been editing Luther-related articles for months, and now you ask "why I'm here"? You didn't ask when you thought I was an ally. Your partner Ptmmcain gave me a barnstar because you thought my editing was so great. I'm certainly not the only editor who has pointed out the high burnout rate of editors perceived as hostile to the Luther point of view. I'd suggest you take such comments seriously. Also I think you really need to read comments before criticizing them.. That's exactly the kind of behavior that drives editors away, that and your abuse and foot-stomping and whining.

Do you mind if I stop replying to your tantrum for a moment and discuss the article? Since indeed it appears that some cuts in this article are being made as per my earlier comments, including the quote which another editor made and which you reverted, I see no need to weigh in with cuts of my own right now. If the cuts don't continue, I will commence doing so and also request deletion of Theology of Martin Luther. --Mantanmoreland 16:53, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Eucharistic views and controversies

Well, you lads certainly go at each other. It's like a three-man Colloquy of Marburg here.

Me, I'm do first, discuss later; but I'll just mention that I'm off to try to rearrange and cut down the above section (and maybe even change the clumsy title). At the moment, Philip of Hesse bursts into the middle of it somewhat out of the blue, so I'll perhaps try to reframe the sequence so that Marburg tops and tails the section, giving it a bone structure. My motivation is to produce a clearer section, one that passing readers could follow without getting bogged down. Some of the terms need a word or two to explain them, in accordance with Wikepedia's guidelines on jargon; I've already looked them all up and am ready to have a go at the tricky task of summarising technical terms in brief, appositional phrases that do not interrupt the flow.

Because this will take me ages, I only hope my revision won't be reverted blindly. I'm entirely comfortable with some of the information I cut being reinserted, so long as editors are with me on trying to improve the section as it stands at present in all its garbled magnificence. qp10qp 10:43, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to work on this. The language is still mostly Schaff, which we needed to reword and reduce anyway. You are also welcome to move detail to other articles, the new one Theology of Martin Luther included. But please take care to represent the views of Luther and others accurately. It would help if you would add citations to your sources as you go along. The only thing I had a problem with on your previous cut is that you did not do this completely. It was my hope to build on what you did before the whole thing was reverted. --CTSWyneken 11:39, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

It is not necessary to say that Qp10qp is "welcome to work on this," as by definition all editors are "welcome" to work on all Wiki articles. This is not your article, CTS, and it is not appropriate for an editor to take it upon himself to give or withhold "approval" or to tell an editor who is acting in good faith that his work must be "accurate." Yesterday this editor's edit was attacked by an editor who admitted he had not even read what he had done. This kind of talk page rhetoric can have a chilling effect on new editors. Please stop. --Mantanmoreland 13:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop your rhetorical assault on other editors and disparaging remarks about their work. It is you that are the problem here. --CTSWyneken 17:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

The problem here is that this article is dominated by you and another editor, who behave in proprietary fashion as if you "own" the article and other editors are guests, to be "welcomed" or given the cold shoulder depending upon their "behavior." Comments like the one below -- "minor edits are welcome" -- prove my point.

The problem with your domination of this article is that it results in a high burnout rate of editors. Just yesterday an editor came here and made good-faith edits. He was reverted by you and Drbosclair and he's gone. I repeat: stop acting as if you own this article.--Mantanmoreland 20:06, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

To you, stop your uncivil ad hominem snipes.--Drboisclair 15:38, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I've renamed the Eucharist section "The Eucharist Controversy", restructured it and cut it down considerably.qp10qp 17:41, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Eucharistic Controversy Section

Very nicely done. Thank you! I don't see anything on first pass that needs changing. Drboisclair, what do you think? --CTSWyneken 17:42, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I like it as well.--Drboisclair 15:42, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

Luther and Justification

I've made an editing pass over this section and gave it a new title. Constructive comments and minor edits are welcome. --CTSWyneken 18:15, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Widening breach

A comment on this section. It basically uses 6 treatises as the basis of the section and the subsection titles are in fact the titles of three of them. They may be important treatises, but from the point-of-view of a encyclopedia reader, the titles have no impact or meaning ("German nobility", "Babylonian captivity",...). I think it is more interesting for the reader if there were relevant subsection titles covering the points of doctrine. RelHistBuff 20:56, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

We can certainly reduce these subsections and summarize their content. We can work the titles of the work into the flow of the text something like: "in his Prelude on the Babylonian Captivity of the Church..." Since three of them sound the signature doctrines of Luther's theology for the first time, we should call them by name. But since at least one or two of them have their own articles, we can treat those as main articles and go to summary style. If you want to take a crack at it, go ahead. --CTSWyneken 00:02, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

1. Martin Luther, The Smalcald Articles in Concordia: The Lutheran Confessions (Saint Louis: Concordia Publishing House, 2005), 289, Part two, Article 1.

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