Misplaced Pages

Freedom skies, you should really watch out for what you put in big black bold letters about other people. Write another title like that and it's called vandalism... anyways, you're taking what i wrote out of context... first of all, the removal of bobby jindal occured late at night after a few beers and really, you must agree that bobby jindal really is not the most attractive person in the world. look at the guy's face! second, i did not state that i believe that the indian martial arts came from the middle east... nor have i ever written or edited a wikipedia article to that effect. what i did state was that the sources YOU quoted stated that the indian martial arts came from the middle east and yet you are not willing to put that on the last page. If you did your homework, and looked at the history of greek wrestling, the greek statues, pictures, sculptures and greek writing describes activities similar to greco-roman wrestling... pankration or something like that was what the greeks called it. as far as I can tell, you are the one who is prejudiced from your statements about the british destroying all martial arts in india and so forth along with you stating that you don't believe someone's scholarship is worthy because they are white. Anyways, either indran cross is the same person as freedom skie OR indran cross is the same person as bakasuprman. Kennethtennyson 01:12, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Indran croos and Freedom skies are two different people.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:14, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Neither. If you have reasons to suspect we are the same person go to WP:RFCU and place your rats there.Bakaman _Bakatalk 01:17, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks.Kennethtennyson 01:27, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Notifying a two day leave

Should'nt even take two days, just a jump in and jump out trip of sorts. Will answer as soon as I come back. Freedom skies 11:56, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, if you are not the person who wrote that crazy letter up there then i do apologize... regardless, i warned the user on being more civil... oh, and i have no interest in finding out where you live... Kennethtennyson 00:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey, if you are not the person who wrote that crazy letter up there then i do apologize... regardless, i warned the user on being more civil... oh, and i have no interest in finding out where you live... Kennethtennyson 00:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

ok, had enough

ok indran croos, i've sort of had enough of this... you need to look at what you are quoting... i was quoting off memory but i went to the page and now you can also... go to march 26 2006 01:21:24 where i made my statement while i was slightly inebriated... LOOK AT THE PAGE!... his picture is still there.... there is an in politics section but now that I look at it and remember... i didn't move it to the in politics section... i moved it to the definition section where the word... INDIAN SUBCONTINENT was placed... so scroll your eyes to the left... that is where his picture is next to the the word INDIAN SUBCONTINENT to match the picture...and i moved michelle wie's picture to the top... who i think is hotter than bobby jindal... and i think you would agree she is hotter than bobby jindal. now end this discussion and accusation. Kennethtennyson 15:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Would it settle this argument to everyone's satisfaction if I moved a picture of Padma Lakshmi to the top of the Asian American page?

JFD 15:15, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

this has nothing to do with the page... it has to do with me and with indran croos being childish... i suggest we leave the page alone... it currently has a nice smattering of different asian americans... filipino, indian, chinese...Kennethtennyson 15:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

more scholars to add

we should add paul elliot and j.a.g. roberts and meir shahar to the list of specialists in martial arts history, ie. historians who do not believe in this theory or even in the existence of any portion of the bodhidharma legend. j.a.g. roberts discounts the fact that bodhidharma even contributed to zen. Kennethtennyson 16:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello everyone

I've been asked to have a look at this discussion. While I agree that generally the martial arts are a tendentious subject (go figure), we don't have to be so when reporting them. It is possible to report legendary stories as stories (whether polemic, didactic, nationalist, etc.) without asserting they are true. Our article on Zhang Sanfeng can serve as one example.

I would like all the editors to acquaint themselves with WP:AGF, WP:Civility and especially WP:NPA. This means using words like "crazy", unfounded accusations of threats and direct threats towards other editors are out. I will from now warn editors who do so, and then apply blocks where necessary if the warnings don't work. We have to decide if we are scholars or gang members. --Fire Star 火星 17:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hi Firestar, and replies

Surprising, JFD.

Now you're bringing arguments that you know are wrong to the table to get me caught in doing what was never disputed in the first place, surprising and now I've begun to realize how the barnstar changes an academic. You're just attempting to cover up for kenny, to try and legitimize his so-called-arguments.

You said "I prefer to let Zarrilli, Pillai, and Barbosa speak for themselves.

The earliest recorded evidence of Kalaripayyattu date from Portuguese descriptions during the latter 16th-17th centuries and becoming less prominent after the British outlawed it during the 18th and 19th centuries CE. It has recently been reinvigorated in the last few decades due to the general worldwide interest in martial arts." to Kenny on 06:55, 15 June 2006.""

You freaking knew that (and I quote) "the British outlawed it during the 18th and 19th centuries CE", and yet you questioned the legitimacy of "The Decline of martial practices" portion.

Wow, guess when you tick one of the barnyard couple, the other goes after you all the way, huh ???

Anyways, and the importance of Royal patronage to Pehlwani is described in the Alter's citation, Royal patronage which went as the british controlled India and replaced the local kings by the crown (what exactly are you asking me to cite here ?? that the british never killed Kshatriya kings ?? or did'nt replace the local rulers with the crown ?? Yes they did and with the replacing of local rulers went the patronage that they gave to many arts, martial or otherwise.). Microscopic riyasats like Datia and Gwalior collaborated with the british as they were too weak to actually fight them, their local traditions survived.

Because, judging from the Alter, between the royal patrons he lists and the story of Gama, it sounds like royal patronage was alive and well.

The sentiment in that time was every victory Gama had was a victory against the british, see the citation.

As for Datia, the british did'nt wipe out but collaborated with it, these states were not conquered but treaties signed and revenues collected, cultures remaining almost intact. Similar examples are Gwalior etc., The india that was conqured by the British, maratha, sikh empires, there rulers were replaced by the crown, which could not care less for providing any patronage to local arts.

• Joeseph alter's citation, on how important the patronages are was provided by me.
• Do I seriously have to provide a citation for "the british replacing local rule with the crown" and "the british conquest" ?? Do you not believe that the British took over India ??? for 200 years. If you want to have a look for yourself so badly just go to these sites. I have come to expect hollow arguments and tactics of delay but arguing that the british never conquered India by force is just too obvious of a delay tactic.

Add 2+2, importance of patronage and the removal of it. Now, if you want books, run the same keywords thorugh Google book search or JSTOR.

You said "I prefer to let Zarrilli, Pillai, and Barbosa speak for themselves.
The earliest recorded evidence of Kalaripayyattu date from Portuguese descriptions during the latter 16th-17th centuries and becoming less prominent after the British outlawed it during the 18th and 19th centuries CE. It has recently been reinvigorated in the last few decades due to the general worldwide interest in martial arts." to Kenny on 06:55, 15 June 2006.""

Had you quoted that message in full it would have read:

I prefer to let Zarrilli, Pillai, and Barbosa speak for themselves.
The earliest recorded evidence of Kalaripayyattu date from Portuguese descriptions during the latter 16th-17th centuries and becoming less prominent after the British outlawed it during the 18th and 19th centuries CE. It has recently been reinvigorated in the last few decades due to the general worldwide interest in martial arts.
Referring to Portuguese descriptions becomes redundant with the specific citation of Barbosa. As for the rest, I've never encountered claims of a ban under the Raj. Can we get a cite on that?

— JFD, 06:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

The normal text is me. That second sentence in italics is code from the Kalarippayattu article pasted on to Kennethtennyson's Talk Page so that I could ask him to provide sources for the statement that there was a ban under the Raj.

what exactly are you asking me to cite here ??

with the replacing of local rulers went the patronage that they gave to many arts, martial or otherwise.

Add 2+2, importance of patronage and the removal of it.

The rajas of Aundh and Miraj were not the only royal patrons of the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The Maharaja of Baroda, raja of Kohalpur, a number of the rajas of Indor, and the rajas of Patiala, Jodhpur, and Datiya were all strong supporters of wrestling as a way of life.

— Joseph S. Alter, The Wrestler's Body: Identity and Ideology in North India, pp. 75–76

The set of sources including :-

• OFFICIAL websites from martial arts institution
• OFFICIAL websites from institutions involved in propogating martial arts in actual learning, with dojos and everything
• New York Times and the BBC
• Authors from throughout the world, scores of them, including traditional and contemporary ones
• The official Shaolin website
• Martial arts organisers, teachers and practitioners

I won't narrow my sources down ONE bit, because the thought of Bodhidharma contributing to the cause of martial arts is that widespread. Of course, that's in case of a challenge, in which case this asking me to narrow my sources down will be a moot point.

Freedom skies, you should really watch out for what you put in big black bold letters about other people.

Look who's talking.

anyways, you're taking what i wrote out of context

Look who's talking again.

first of all, the removal of bobby jindal occured late at night after a few beers and really, you must agree that bobby jindal really is not the most attractive person in the world. look at the guy's face! second

Wow !! and you were surprised that I was disgusted by your past actions ??? ??

i did not state that i believe that the indian martial arts came from the middle east... nor have i ever written or edited a wikipedia article to that effect. what i did state was that the sources YOU quoted stated that the indian martial arts came from the middle east and yet you are not willing to put that on the last page

Let's chart a route for all these arts.

We'll compile a list of arts.

Then chart from alpha to omega, since you seem to be ready to endorse the content of these sites.

Lemme Know.

If you did your homework, and looked at the history of greek wrestling, the greek statues, pictures, sculptures and greek writing describes activities similar to greco-roman wrestling... pankration or something like that was what the greeks called it.

Gawd !! did you just equate pankration with Greco ???

WTF ??

Pankration and Greco ??

God, I know both of them in detail, I kinda contributed to the articles on Pancrase and greco here and that's personal attack removed

you are the one who is prejudiced from your statements about the british destroying all martial arts in india and so forth along

I never said that, the sense is that systemtic takeovers of the Kshatriyas , the outlawing of martial arts, the killing of Kshatriyas in battlefield contributed to the overall decline of IMAs. You just take what I have to say grossly out of context personal attack removed

you don't believe someone's scholarship is worthy because they are white

Kenny more "white people" both in the US and the UK are willing to go the distance even before I ask them, I have more tried and tested "white" friends than peole who've heard of you.

Plus please point me to where I said that Kenny. I'm curious.

Anyways, either indran cross is the same person as freedom skie OR indran cross is the same person as bakasuprman

He's not me. Nobody's me but me.

Freedom skies 18:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)