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Response

I found actual reference to the court case itself (chancery division) which deals with issues of equity and commercial property. Lord Davenport paid £800,000 to settle the case. The Sierra Leone government dropped the case following legal advice from their counsel. There is no mention of fraud. http://www.christian-monitor.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=328&Itemid=42

I will source out the original court case transcript if you wish.

I accept that the Bilderberg affiliation is possibly too ambiguous to publish as an encyclopaedic form of information. For this reason I will not dispute it being removed.

I will remove the "self-proclaimed" aristocrat or indeed any mention of aristocrat if it suits you, until you verify this fact with the College of Arms as discussed above.

As a recent Wiki user/editor points out - citations are needed. Misplaced Pages policy on the subject of living persons require that this be deleted until a credible source can be found, especially where such statements are defamatory or give rise to libel.

The royal bet should be mentioned; however I disagree with your opinion or any other wikipedia users opinion. Instead facts should be represented.

I have never claimed that Lord Edward Davenport was admitted to the Sunday Times rich list. He did however, enter the Mail on Sunday Rich Report which is mentioned in the same BBC transcript and can be verified by the Mail on Sunday. This fact should be mentioned, although it might be worthwhile mentioning that he was declined entry to the Sunday Times Rich List.

Is this a suitable starting point?

(fraudster)?

Since the article text contains only a one-sentence paragraph about his fraud conviction, is it not somewhat POV to title the article "Edward Davenport (fraudster)"? I notice that the disambig page lists this page as "Edward Davenport (property developer)"; given the balance of the article's content and our policies on biographies, I propose a move back to "(property developer)". Yunshui (talk) 13:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I agree, I am dubious of the current title, its highly POV. businessman would seem better? Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 13:47, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Blow, moved it - I agree with your logic! Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 13:50, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Seems like Kittybrewster didn't... Yunshui (talk) 14:00, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Placed a POV tag on this. Kittybrewster seems to have a POV problem??? Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 14:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I placed a notice on Hello. This message is being sent to inform you that there is currently a discussion at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.. This things is moving around WAY TOO MUCH!!! Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 14:18, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(Businessman). Putting (Criminal) is HIGHLY POV in this case. His entire life does not revolve around fraud. The lede should also mention business first, then convicted of fraud for the same reasons. Ravensfire (talk) 14:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Swapped the order in the lede to property developer and convicted fraudster. Don't like that phrasing though, but wasn't sure what was better. Maybe just "property developer"? Then add something about in September 2011 he was convicted of fraud related to an advanced-fee scheme? Ravensfire (talk) 14:37, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Good idea Ravensfire, supported! I couldn't see that on the references/facts that we have to hand, that property developer reflected what he actually did. Seemed to have his hand in numerous businesses, so hence my choice of businessman. He also has a deft hand of engaging lawyers rather quickly, so hence the move from fraudster to businessman. I can't see how on the balance of what we have as references at present, that we can tag him in the tile as fraudster or criminal - its just too POV. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 14:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

He was never a Lord. Just Lord of the Manor of ....... See the references for multiple WP:PEACOCK. Kittybrewster ☎ 14:53, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• Support moving back to old title, new title is hardly neutral. The Last Angry Man (talk) 15:02, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

No doubt at all that the new title is non-WP:NPOV. See WP:TITLECHANGES. Any move to a title other than "(developer)" at this point would be a knee-jerk reaction to recent events. It needs to be moved back. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:04, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

• It started out this morning at Edward Davenport (property developer), but I can't see much that "supports" property development beyond No.33, and he seems to have had his hand in many different businesses/markets. To remove the POV, I'd support either moving it back to Edward Davenport (property developer) or to the wider and normal covention of Edward Davenport (businessman). Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 15:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

  I'll go along with "(property developer)", especially now that I see the Edward Davenport disambiguation page lists him that way. (I'm also putting that disamb page on my Watchlist just to make sure no one decides to change that title as well.) --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:17, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

What about Edward Davenport (socialite) which may be more descriptively accurate. Fmph (talk) 15:22, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

The test under WP:TITLE would seem to be what made the person notable, which is not to be confused with what they're best known as. The way I see it, his notability arises from his engagement in property development, which in turn elevated him to the arguable level of socialite, or more recently, convicted criminal (which is what got this whole conversation started). My own preference would be to restore the label of "property developer", as stated by Trident13. As is the set standard, however, WP:CONSENSUS will determine the proper title. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 15:32, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

And that is, by your own definition, where you are wrong. He did NOT become notable, because of his disputed ownership of the Embassy. His fame and source of initial wealth was as an organiser of parties, especially the Gatecrashers Ball which were headline news for several weeks.178.37.120.122 (talk) 07:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

I think part of the problem here around him is the self-created/centred PR that he's generated. Even edits records of our own page here show - as Kittybrewster points out - various peacock edits. Much of the side commentary from the media around the property development "business" seems to centre on him renting a building, then cliaming to own it, and then sub-letting it. So is that property development, or did that title here (as opposed to businessman), then suit his means? Socialite again seems to suit his highly-spun image. My personal conclusion is that given a few weeks, we'll have a lot more sources on what to call him - at present just get it away from the POV! Hence going back on our track and reverting to Edward Davenport (property developer) seems the safest option. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 15:36, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

(Property developer) works for me. Ravensfire (talk) 15:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I also think that (Property developer) is the best option. SmartSE (talk) 16:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Looking over the discussion, I think WP:CONSENSUS has been reached that the proper title would be Edward Davenport (property developer). Would you do the honors? I tried once, but I think the already-existing redirect got in the way, so a G6 deletion may be needed first, and that's an admin-only button. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 16:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

I was about to, but I came across this by the Press Association who call him an entrepreneur. Looking over the article, I can't really see why he is called a property developer, whereas entrepreneur seems more accurate. Would Edward Davenport (entrepreneur) be ok? SmartSE (talk) 17:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Ah, no (caveat: not yet!) We could debate this till the proverbiale cows come home, but at least or time line and his lawyers were happy with Edward Davenport (property developer). More sources as they rise over the next few weeks will support a consensus on if/which title to move him to later, but at the moment the goal is to remove the POV. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 17:39, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Ok. That's done SmartSE (talk) 19:21, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

There is no indication of him developing any property. He's on his second jail sentence for fraud related crime, plus the VAT offences, so his career seems to heavily biased towards crime. Looking at the Wiki definition of entrepreneur, the correct title is Criminal Entrepreneur. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.37.120.122 (talk) 19:33, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Whatever we end up calling the article, it might be a good idea to rename this talkpage too... be a shame for all this discussion to be nuked by a G8.Yunshui (talk) 19:42, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Woops. My bad. That's now fixed. SmartSE (talk) 19:52, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank You SmartSE. Rgds, --Trident13 (talk) 20:08, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Whatever he is he is NOT a property developer. He owns one house in London (which he acquired through a 'development scheme') but there is no indication that he has done anything of the sort since. Socialite, Entrepreneur, social climber, twice convicted fraud or leave it blank. But NOT a property developer. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.37.120.122 (talk) 20:14, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

Your non-neutral opinion has been noted. However, WP:CONSENSUS is that the correct title is "(property developer)". Perhaps if you decide on a less combative and more neutral title, it would meet with serious consideration. Read through WP:TITLE; it might give you a bit of insight, not to mention inform you as to why your preferred title is not acceptable. --Alan the Roving Ambassador (User:N5iln) (talk) 21:45, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

non-neutral my arse. He is/was NOT a property developer. Fmph (talk) 05:13, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

What's wrong with (entrepeneur)? It's neutral, sufficiently disambiguating without being misleadingly overspecific - the problem with the current disambig. VanIsaac_WS 05:11, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

As the title is supposed to signify what made him notable, then its obvious that he should be described as a party organiser or socialite. He did not become notable for his ownership (actually, a short term lease) of 33, he got far, far more press coverage for Gatecrashers Ball than anything since. 178.37.120.122 (talk) 07:10, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

FYI, further debating on this topic has occurred on Misplaced Pages at Talk:Edward_Davenport_(fraudster)#Moving_the_page. --Rebroad (talk) 12:38, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Moving the page

There seems to be adequate consensus that the current title of "(property developer)" is not good. There appears to be less consensus about what to rename it to. I'm going to go with Edward Davenport (criminal) for now, and there is precedent for this, see for example Carl Williams (criminal) and Mark Moran (criminal). Some concerns have been raised about BLP issues and neutrality, and I do think those are factors to consider. But it isn't non-neutral to say that someone is a criminal, if they are, so I don't think neutrality carries the day. And the BLP issues would be more compelling for me if he were notable for something other than his crimes, which he really isn't. (Some minor notability as a flamboyant character, but not sufficient to bring him into Misplaced Pages, I think, were it not for his crimes.)

I'm not adamant about this change, but I think we'd need some compelling reason to switch to something else. Most of the other proposals are themselves problematic on neutrality or other grounds.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:18, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Could we please move it to Edward Davenport (fraudster)? That would be more consistent with other UK fraudster disambiguations, e.g. Kevin Foster (fraudster), Michael Brown (fraudster), etc. Prioryman (talk) 18:06, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Agree with Prioryman here, it is also not quite so POV. The Last Angry Man (talk) 18:25, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

NPOV is not really the issue, I think - it's more a matter of specificity and consistency with other similar people. Prioryman (talk) 20:29, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm totally happy with this proposal. Shall I do it, or does someone else want to do the honors?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:53, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

Go for it, J! :) Wikipeterproject (talk) 15:58, 27 October 2011 (UTC)

For some reason the article appears in the list "con artists by century of birth" as a 19th century birth. I am sorry, but I do not know how to correct this as the birth date in the article description is correct. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.19.63.114 (talk) 09:31, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I've removed it. SmartSE (talk) 12:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Recent move

Have moved the page from "Edward Davenport (fraudster)" to "Edward Davenport (convicted fraudster)", as this is more NPOV. Fraudster is a subjective term, and not everyone agrees he is one. But it cannot be disputed that he was convicted of fraud, and therefore this new title is less POV. I hope all agree. --Rebroad (talk) 05:14, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

Rebroad, I apologize for moving the location of your post, but it is reanimating a four-year dead discussion so I felt it would be best to start a new one. I honestly don't see how adding "convicted" to the title makes it more neutral, and thus the added length and wordiness just seems unnecessary. I have moved the page back to its original location. If you really want to move this page, I suggest using {{requested move}} and get the discussion going again. Primefac (talk) 22:30, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

I'm not sure how Rebroad missed the discussion at #Moving the page above in which I pointed out that "(fraudster)" is in fact already used in several similar article titles. It's also rather bizarre to argue that it's POV to describe someone as a fraudster when they have in fact been convicted of fraud in a court of law. It's not a question of opinion but a verified fact. Prioryman (talk) 21:30, 14 September 2016 (UTC)

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