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Revision as of 15:52, 7 September 2006

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• A request for adminship is open for discussion.
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• Rewriting the guideline Misplaced Pages:Please do not bite the newcomers
• Should comments made using LLMs or chatbots be discounted or even removed?

From SledDogAC

The information I have added to the webpages is all correct and verifiable. I have provided documentation for what I write, in sharp contrast to AKMask's edits. AKMask doesn't want wikipedia to be neutral. This person has an a pro-Iditarod, pro-musher agenda that he or she only wants the public to know. If wikipedia wants to be held in high regard, it will ban administrators and editors like AKMask who act like dictators to keep facts from being told. I certainly don't deserve to be banned. Here's an example of what I've added and what has been repeatedly deleted by AKMask: (removed due to enormity)

WP:POINT violations by Polaron (talk · contribs), massive page moves

Polaron (talk · contribs) has unilaterally moved dozens of pages, in violation of WP:POINT. Japanese cities in the form cityname, prefecturename were massively moved to cityname City. Polaron is claiming WP:NC(CN) should override WP:MOS-JA, but many users oppose this, and discussion/polling is now taking place at Misplaced Pages talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles). Polaron has started a similar poll in Talk:New Orleans, Louisiana and Talk:Seattle, Washington to drop state names from the cities, so he is on a personal crusade to drop state (and prefecture) names from ALL cities in the world. Please advise if this IS, in fact, a violation of WP:POINT. Also, how can we reverse his massive changes?--Endroit 12:49, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If the redirect page has not been edited, non-admins can simply reverse the redirect without any trouble. Hbdragon88 16:27, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

His moves are clearly against consensus on the Japanese MOS. I have reverted all of them. Please let me know if he attempts a massive page move episode like this again. Thanks. pschemp | talk 04:07, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for reverting and fixing everything. I think everything is back to normal, and we are having a civil discussion now.--Endroit 17:45, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

I'll point out that this person is a highway editor, and has mass moved there too. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 17:53, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes I saw that but I am not familiar with the highway debate and what consensus is there. Someone involved with that needs to check those moves. pschemp | talk 17:08, 2 September 2006 (UTC)

I looked at his contribs and didn't see any recent highway moves, maybe I missed them. I can't be the blocker though as I'm involved. ++Lar: t/c 03:08, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

This was a while ago though. --Rschen7754 (talk - contribs) 21:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Did they all get sorted? I'd be inclined, at this remove, to not do anything about it, then. Or ask him to help sort them out if they're not, and nothing more. ++Lar: t/c 14:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Huh? I haven't moved a state highway page in 6 months. And I made those moves not knowing about the general highway naming debate and before any mediation/arbitration/etc. I'm not even a party to that arbitration stuff. I hope this wasn't brought up to imply that I am one of the "bad persons" here. --Polaron | Talk 23:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Rockets

Hello,

I don't know all the rules or procedures of Misplaced Pages, for that I apologize. However I have attempted to edit the page for "The Rockets" with some but not total satisfaction. One of the definitions you have posted reads as follows:

"Crazy Horse (band) — An American rock and roll band which was originally named "The Rockets".

In fact the Crazy Horse band was only one of at least two bands that have used the name the rockets The Detroit band mentioned was probably more well known as "The Rockets" than The crazy horse band was. While Crazy Horse is certainly notable, They used that name for a year or so, The Detroit Rockets used the name for 10+ years. and can still be heard frequently on Detroit FM stations.

The second, as one of your own admins pointed out, was a well known Band from Detroit. They put out 6 albums total, had several songs that charted and were formed by two of the former members of the "Detroit Wheels" Their singer sang for a period with Ted Nugent. They were the opening act for major bands of the period such as Kiss, ZZ Top, amungst many others. They had some but primarily local Detroit sucess with such hits as "Turn Up The Radio", "OH Well", "Takin it back" and others. They deserve more than a "See also, Detroit Wheels" I would be happy to attempt to do them better justice but I'm not sure I would be the best person to do so given my inexperience of WIKI and all the ins and outs, formatting ect. I will probably never find a reply so it may be better to send replies to crider.john@comcast.net

Thanks

See the following links:

http://www.johnny-bee.com/ http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Street/2818/ http://www.metrotimes.com/editorial/story.asp?id=3550 http://madrabbit.net/rockets/

Masssiveego has posted his RfA and I have blocked him for it

Hello. I have blocked Masssiveego for his antics on Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Masssiveego which seems like a clear attempt to draw fire from people bitter with his own antics on RfA, with a minimalist nomination and tongue-in-cheek answers to the questions. He seems to have induced a bite from Pschemp at least. This lasts for a week. I previously did this for Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/The Mad Bomber for trolling his own RfA. Please review and feel free to protest on my talk page. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 05:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sounds about right. --Cyde Weys 05:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Good call -- Samir धर्म 05:47, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't see any issues with this block. Pure WP:POINT. Can we close the RfA? (Or does it need to be a 'crat?) alphaChimp 05:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I was thinking of blocking him myself, so obviously I endorse the block. It's rather obvious that he's trolling for attention with all this RfA stuff... let's just not feed him and move on. --W.marsh 05:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

RFA has been closed. Support block. – Chacor 05:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hey should I close it then? It's already WP:SNOWballing with opposes and he is blocked after all. - Glen 05:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC) - shit - 4 edit conflicts later its been done :S

Sheesh, if you use the shortcut at least shorten the verb to WP:SNOWing. I want snow! :P – Chacor 05:53, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I added an extra day to the block for and . CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 06:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Exhausting community patience?

Once again, it's time to bring this up. He's coming close to exhausting the community's patience, in my view. Thoughts? – Chacor 06:51, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Not yet. I would not have blocked him at all for starting the RfA. In fact i think SNOWing this RfA was a bad idea. Rather I would have let it run the full 7 days. Having 100+ opposes might have finally gotten through to this editor that he needs to reconsider his approach. But with the RfA snowed, he's got ammo to say we aren't treating him right, etc. ++Lar: t/c 06:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Perhaps, but there just isn't a reason to let trolls stay. – Chacor 06:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Is this user a flat out troll? Sure, close the book right away... Or, is he rescuable? if rescuable is it worth the effort? that's how I evaluate the question of whether community patience is exhausted. I don't think ME is a flat out troll. His contributions are light so not a LOT of effort is justified but I'm not convinced he is not rescuable. Contrast with Tobias, next thread. CLEARLY not a troll, has a big contribution record, therefore worth a fair bit of effort, but I'm starting to think... not rescuable. Make sense? ++Lar: t/c 07:09, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Would we simply be gratifying him by letting the RfA run? Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 07:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hard to say. I'm not too sussed either way but I did want to throw out that on balance, gratified or not, this is one time that SNOW isn't the right thing to do. In my view anyway. ++Lar: t/c 07:25, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think closing it was the right thing to do to avoid disruption. Blocking him... I don't know whether he's a good faith user or not, and I suspect probably not, but I'm generally upset by the level of blocking going on in Misplaced Pages at the moment. The Land 13:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• I think the Masssiveego's RFA voting is a problem and unhelpful, but I think imposing blocks for it is a rather drastic measure. A much better "penalty" would be for the RFA closing bureaucrats to systematically disregard his votes. Regarding the RFA, I agree with Lar that I would not have blocked him for that either, and that a hundred "oppose"s on what is in effect an editor peer review might convey the message far more clearly than a block ever will. Sjakkalle (Check!) 13:32, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• I agree with Lar and Sjakkalle. Haukur 13:45, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• Users are allowed to use whatever criteria they like in RfAs. His are high and somewhat arbitrary, but that's his perogative. He feels that there are problems with some admins and thus that the process should be more strict/changed. He has a right to that opinion and should not be persecuted for it. Obviously his RFA self-nom wasn't meant to be a serious attempt, but I also don't see where it caused any significant disruption justifying a block. --CBD 14:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• It was obvious trolling. I think it's really not good as a community if we just let people do that. I really don't think I'd mind if someone opposed every RfA, at least I wouldn't want to block them for it, if I felt they were doing it in good faith. With his comments... it just seems like he's clammoring for attention most of the time. As a community we need to be aware of situations like that, and stop them. --W.marsh 14:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) He hasn't been opposing RfAs on the basis that he thinks the candiates will be bad admins, he's been opposing them to annoy people. The whole "Masssiveego is allowed to vote using his own critera" is what has allowed him to continue trolling for so long. -- Steel 14:48, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
  • The above look like assumptions of bad faith. It seems clear to me that Massiveego votes the way he does because he legitimately believes there are problems with admins and the process for appointing them. He has repeatedly said that is the case. These claims that he is 'lying' seem wholly unsubstantiated and inconsistent with the history IMO. --CBD 14:57, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
    • It's bad to assume bad faith, but that absolutely does not mean that I can't conclude bad faith, and this is a situation where I'll do it. This defense of an obvious troll is kind of sad. Let's go work on writing the encyclopedia. --W.marsh 14:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I thought he was acting in good faith as well until this latest RfA. CBD have you read his statement and answers? Given how many of his edits are to the RfA pages he would know that suich an RfA would merit automatic opposes no matter who it was from and he himself has opposed before per people saying the answers to the questions are too short. WP:AGF is not a suicide pact. JoshuaZ 15:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Let's talk about AGF. Blnguyen blocked Massiveego, for a week, for posting that RFA. Blnguyen also told him to post that RFA. Can I really be the only person who has a problem with that? If it were such a terrible thing to do then the same people damning him here should not have been telling him to do it. --CBD 15:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Masssive has also shown here and here that he considers RfA a joke (I realise those RfA's are from a while ago, though). -- Steel 15:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
    • I find this recent thing of many editors who should know better interpreting "Assume good faith" to mean "turn off all of your critical facilities and never act against people who are acting in bad faith" to be a somewhat disturbing trend. Nandesuka 15:14, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Thanks for the needless insult. Personally, I find the inability of many admins to behave in a remotely civil fashion a "somewhat disturbing trend". --CBD 15:29, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Reblocked

Okay, I reblocked him. If you look at his RfA (where someone tells people not to encourage him, then he replies flippantly "Please vote, your opinion counts!" this is just classic "Pay attention to my trolling!" stuff. Then after his comments on his talk page after the block... I mean come on, this guy is clearly playing us for attention and shows no sign of stopping, and the block was widely endorsed. Let's not keep feeding him. --W.marsh 14:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Seems like an improper block and wheel warring to me. The user has been saying that he was going to run for RFA (following suggestions that he do so) and preparing the form for about a week. Nothing surprising here. Nobody told him 'no do not do that'... nor should they have. Someone should not be banned from submitting an RfA just because they often vote against other users. --CBD 14:54, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No, but if the RfA is obvious trolling... it's not good that we sit around and give him so much attention, it's exactly what he wants. --W.marsh 14:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a good block. He's not being banned for "submitting an RFA." He's being blocked for trolling. Nandesuka 14:58, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Semantic flim-flammery. If this was such a heinous thing then someone should have said so when he announced, repeatedly, that he was going to do it. Not waited until it happened and then blocked him for doing what others had encouraged him to do. --CBD 15:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I think the people on WT:RFA and whatnot may have assumed his RfA was going to be a serious attempt at adminship, rather than the attempt to troll which it turned out to be. -- Steel 15:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

(after edit conflicts, reply to CBD) Uh, I didn't know he was talking about doing it, so the accusation that I waited until it happened is just untrue. I don't see every edit on Misplaced Pages... I can only respond to what I do see, when I see it. If someone does something bad, the fact that they quietly talked about it somewhere a week ago and no one objected is absolutely not a "get out of jail free" card. That's just not how things operate. --W.marsh 15:08, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

He didn't 'quietly talk about it'. He said it several times and was encouraged to do it. See User:Masssiveego/votingsurvey. While you were (as you say) unaware of it note that the person who originally blocked him was not... because they told him to do it. And then blocked him for doing so. Indeed, both prior blockers, Blnguyen and CanadianCaesar, told him to put up an RFA. --CBD 15:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The issue here is not that Masssive put up an RfA. Rather, the issue is that the RfA he did put up was a joke RfA attempting to annoy people. Nobody would have blocked him if his RfA had been a serious attempt at adminship. -- Steel 15:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree with Steel - your description is semantic flim-flammery. The relevant metaphor would be if someone asked you "Can I go to the bathroom?" and you said "Sure!" and they yanked down their pants and went on the floor. Nandesuka 15:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Ok, then tell me... does anyone seriously claim that there was ever any possibility of a 'Massiveego RfA' PASSING? Anyone? No? Does anyone think that he didn't know that? I'm sorry, but the 'oh it was bad because it was not a serious attempt to get adminship' excuse doesn't wash. Everyone knew when they encouraged him to do it that it wasn't going to be a 'serious attempt to get adminship'... because that was completely impossible. Anyone who didn't know what his RfA was going to be like when they encouraged him to do it must have been completely ignoring their critical thinking faculties... because it was obvious. --CBD 15:49, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Now who, exactly, isn't assuming good faith? In my time at Misplaced Pages, I have seen many RfA's brought by people whom, six months previously, you would have said had no chance at passing (off the very top of my head, Aaron Brenneman, who was blocked and publically castigated for vandalism but whom through hard work redeemed himself in the eyes of the community). The only person responsible for the contents of Masssiveego's RFA is masssive himself. I absolutely believe that had he brought an RfA that's wasn't an obvious troll, he would not have been blocked. Would he have passed? Well, maybe not this time. But a serious attempt might have laid the groundwork for the future. Trying to pin the blame for his trolling on other people for not psychically predicting it and then talking him out of it ahead of time is ludicrous. Nandesuka 15:55, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Of course everyone knew an RfA from Masssive would never pass. The fact is, if Masssive had written a serious nomination and provided serious answers to the questions, which I for one was expecting him to do, he would have received 100+ oppose votes, but no block. Comments such as AmiDaniel's on that voting survey page suggest that I wasn't the only one who was expecting a serious request. -- Steel 15:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore I don't know about other users but if it had been a serious request I for one at least would have considered it. I think his behavior in regard to RfAs indicates an inability to work well with others and I might oppose or neutral for that reason. But the assumption that a serious RfA would have been 100 oppose votes and nothing else is unwarranted. JoshuaZ 16:06, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

So, he's blocked for a non-serious RFA? Sounds like your punishing him, unless you think he's going to disrupt Misplaced Pages by constantly making non-serious RFA's. I think both blocks are a little inappropriate. Rx StrangeLove 16:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter that the RfA actually caused little to no disruption. It doesn't matter that he was encouraged to file it by the very people (save W.marsh) who blocked him. It doesn't matter that it was entirely predictable that any current RfA from him would not be serious given the obvious fact that it would not pass. He's unpopular and there is a pretext... so hey, block for a week. Which sadly does more to make the case he has been saying about the actions of some admins than anything else he might have ever accomplished. Oh well. 'The admin community has spoken'. --CBD 16:33, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

As I've said, he does very little but troll for attention, the RfA was an obvious example of that. That's disruptive, in my opinion. Misplaced Pages shouldn't exist to ammuse trolls. --W.marsh 16:19, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

By blocking Massiveego you gave him that attention he actually may have wanted ;-). I don't see how an RfA should warrant a block. Blocking won't help here. A bit oppose piling and then everything would have been done. Now you guys and girls are blowing up the whole thing here. Not very intelligent. --Ligulem 16:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree at least in so far as Strangelove is right that he isn't going to repeat this presumably. However, given his past behavior we may have a serious worry that he will find some other way of trolling. As of now however the block does seem more punitive than preventative. JoshuaZ 16:37, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The trolls have figured out that they can always count on some admin to be a dissenter and argue in favor of even the worst trolls, thus creating the disruption they wanted in the first place. --Cyde Weys 16:38, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The block is preventative because he showed no signs of slowing his trolling efforts. Ideally the community could just ignore them, but this thread is a sad testament that we're ignorant of trolling 101 here. Well said Cyde. --W.marsh 16:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Who needs to 'argue in defense of trolls'. Some of us just argue against admins engaging in incivility (e.g. calling anyone a troll), excessive blocks (e.g. one week with no warning and no preventative basis), bias (e.g. this user is unpopular so it is ok), et cetera. Doesn't matter who the target of the abuse is... just that this isn't the way admins are supposed to act. --CBD 16:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

So, CBD: When, exactly, did you stop beating your wife? Nandesuka 16:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe that's meant as sarcasm, but it's late and I can't sense it, but I think that's going a bit too far. – Chacor 16:59, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's a basic debate trap and logical fallacy... trying to change the argument so there's no answer that's "correct". --W.marsh 17:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Expanding on that a bit, while I agree that calling a good-faith editor a troll is incivil, there are people whom it is OK to call trolls: to wit, trolls. I do it, Jimbo does it, everyone does it. The idea that we're supposed to wear white gloves and pretend they don't exist is poor. My rule of thumb is that what is incivil is to call someone a troll to their face, since if true it accomplishes nothing and if false it's just insulting. However, using the term descriptively while talking with other admins is fine, so that we can measure appropriate response (and you may have noticed that most admins are not shy about disagreeing with the evaluation that someone is a troll, if they disagree). I think your characterizing what has gone on in this case as "abuse" is somewhat over-the-top, as my lampooning of your argument shows. Nandesuka 16:56, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

While you are sadly correct that admin incivility and personal attacks are widespread... no they are not something that "everyone" does. This idea that 'if admins decide that someone is a troll then they can call the person a troll' directly contradicts Misplaced Pages policy. The same page even lists repeatedly calling someone a troll (even to third parties) as an example of personal attacks. I completely reject the principle that we are allowed to be incivil... 'because they deserve it'. No way. We should be held to higher standards. Not lower ones. --CBD 18:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I really am bothered that an admin would apparently support an obvious troll over someone like me, who has clearly never editted in bad faith or even been accused of it. We really need to stop feeding the trolls, I'll say it again. --W.marsh 17:05, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

This interpretation is completely wrong. This has nothing to do with "supporting" anybody in anything. But actually, you can feed trolls by blocking them. The intention of trolls is to test the system. As long as they don't vandalise or mess up anything they should be simply ignored. I fail to see how a single RfA falls into this category. Please at least shorten the block to 48 hours or so if you really feel urged to block in this case. A week is way over the top. --Ligulem 18:04, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry that you are bothered by this, but this idea that one user is 'supported over' another is completely wrong. There should be no hierarchy where 'recognized as better' users get to do things that others cannot. Calling people trolls is prohibitted by policy... doesn't matter who does it. Yes, even Jimbo has done that... and people called him out over it. Personal attacks are always a bad idea, no matter what the 'difference in status' between the two users. The entire mindset of 'who do you support' is a blight on Misplaced Pages IMO. I look at your actions and I look at his actions and I criticize each on their merits regardless of who they were directed at. He made a mildly silly RfA... following encouragement. Ummm... sorry, but that just doesn't seem like much of a problem to me. At most I might have said, 'ok, hah hah... knock it off, I am closing this down', and don't do it again. You placed a lengthy block for non-existant disruption (the RfA was already closed), called the guy a troll repeatedly, et cetera. Are you generally a nicer guy / better contributor / higher 'access level' than him? Maybe so... but entirely irrelevant to me. I don't judge situations on the 'hierarchical status' of the participants. We aren't supposed to and it's not good for Misplaced Pages when we do. --CBD 18:40, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Given the massive admin support for allowing trolling and attacking good faith editors, I have decided to unblock him. --W.marsh 18:17, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you, W.Marsh. It seems likely to me that one of the folks above will re-re-block him, but I appreciate that you were willing to look at others' point of view. Firsfron of Ronchester 18:44, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I also appreciate your efforts to discuss this and apologize for what you took as "attacking good faith editors". It is not at all my intent to say that you are a 'bad user'. I disagree with your action here, but there can be no question that it is a common view which you would have every reason to think 'right'. I strongly disagree with that view, but do not mean to 'attack' you. I don't know you (or Massive either, beyond being familiar with contention around his RfA participation). You may well be the nicest and most productive user on Misplaced Pages... and I didn't mean to say anything to imply that was not the case. We disagree, but that's it. --CBD 19:03, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

No, you and others have accused me of abuse. That is an attack. And it's in defense of a troll. I see where people's priorities are now... defend the trolls and talk about how abusive the good faith editors are. This is horrible. --W.marsh 20:34, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel it necessary to respond to the points above, in case people are under the impression that I may have been trying to "trap" Masssiveego to block him. Firstly, I said that if he wanted to run in an RfA, then he would be free to do so . If anybody looks at the ten RfA nominations that I have prepared at User:Blnguyen/RfA as well as my answers to questions at Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Blnguyen it is easy to see that I take things seriously and have a high standard of what a "proper" RfA is - with a proper nomination and answers to questions - indeed I have received some good-natured jibes about my statements being excessive. I honestly felt that his RfA was not serious, as in some RfAs he had complained about others' lack of attention to detail himself. I was not intending to punish him, I felt that there was a possibility he would try and respond to the opposes in similar ways as in Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/The Mad Bomber. In no way was I goading him to trap and punish him - I have never indulged in retaliatory voting at RfA as can be seen by my record. As to whether the block actually made things worse and garnered attention - that may be the case and at no stage do I rule out the possiblity that a block may be a strategic mistake. I am not hurt/bothered that other admins may disagree with me and reverse my block, my decisions are not above scrutiny, nor should they be. Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 21:43, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm very surprised that you didn't anticipate the sort of RfA he would file, but perhaps I am benefitting from 20/20 hindsight. I apologize for having thought that oversight implausible. To the rest I would only say, "felt there was a possibility he would..." sounds like a reason to warn him not to do that. Neh? --CBD 22:01, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Maybe you should consider extending to your fellow admins just a fraction of the sort of good faith you expect them to extend to trolls, vandals, and disruptors, and then they wouldn't think you were being abusive. Nandesuka 23:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Hmmmm, I wouldn't have blocked over this, but I can see why it was done. I'm concerned that every time there's a block imposed these days people want to argue about the reasons why they wouldn't have done it, rather than appreciating that there's an element of discretion and judgment with these things. Two reasonable admins may take different approaches, and I think we should be fairly deferential to each other's judgment. Given that there was a block, it was rather long IMHO, but that could have been discussed with the blocking admins in a courteous way, i.e.: "Um, a week is rather long for a first block without a warning. Would you consider reducing it to 24 hours?" That's all that has to be said if we assume our colleagues who have undergone the ordeal of fire and water to become admins are reasonable people. (We should all be open to suggestions when they are put like that.) And yes, I do think we need to be as supportive of each other as possible unless someone does something obviously abusive or bizarre. Metamagician3000 00:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That is exactly what I did here, Metamagician. Firsfron of Ronchester 08:48, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and I saw that, and also that it got a bad reaction. I'm not being critical of you. FWIW, I think that the response you received was over-sensitive. Yes, if someone asked me as nicely as that to shorten a block I'd almost certainly comply. It's definitely not your fault that W.marsh was not receptive to your approach. Hey, I'm not laying blame with just one person here, but I'm trying to express a view about how we should try to work together and be supportive of each other while also being willing to offer and receive courteous, respectful advice. Jeeze, I'm starting to make myself feel sick here. "Kumbaya ... kumbaya ..." Metamagician3000 09:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Come-on Nandesuka. If W.marsh wants to leave, this is up to him (although it is ridiculous. See also  ;-). Again, a block of a week for a single boring soon-to-be-failing snow-ball oppose RfA is way over the top. You are making an elephant out of a mouse here. Blocking is not intended for such a behaviour. As such, criticism is well appropriate. If you can't stand that, then don't issue such inflammatory blocks. --Ligulem 01:13, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Nandesuka, I'm sorry that W.marsh continues to see this in terms of 'only I or Massiveego can be right and these people support him over me'. I don't 'value Massiveego more than W.marsh' as he says, but there is nothing I can do about it if he continues to be fixed in that mindset after I have repeatedly said otherwise. I hope W.marsh will reconsider and/or realize that his stated reasons for being mad aren't true to begin with. Nobody here 'prefers trolls to valued contributors'. If you think it is "abusive" to disagree with personal attacks maybe you should try to get WP:NPA rewritten to say that admins can abuse users they don't like. --CBD 01:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The thought occurred to me that Massiveego may not have all his eggs in one basket, and I don't mean that as an insult, but as a defense of his actions. If this isn't the case, then my guess is he is trolling. CBD, you need to get out, fight the vandals on RC patrol, and become more adept at identifying those that are here primarily for disruption.--MONGO 06:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please, Mongo, let's not turn this into a "I've got more experience than you"-type debate, which is what your "you need to get out, fight the vandals on RC patrol, and become more adept at identifying those that are here primarily for disruption" comment looks like to me. CBD is free to disagree with this block, and I, frankly, agree with him. Let's also not turn this into a "Is Masssiveego insane?" debate, which is entirely out of our purview. The question is about the block. The user was not warned before the block, received a week-long block for a first offence when WP:BLOCK states blocks for disruption should start at 24 hours, the user has had his block extended several times since then, and the user has been called a troll repeatedly by several users (even administrators!), against WP:NPA policy. I don't believe administrators are "above the law"; we're here to enforce the rules, not ignore them. Firsfron of Ronchester 06:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, facts are facts. Whether Masssiveego is a troll or not is not for me to say, but he was definitely trolling, and that is an accurate description of his actions. His talk page is littered with comments by myself and a few others in regards to what his purposes on Misplaced Pages are about. When you have experience dealing with these types of situations, you are less likely to assume bad faith on the part of admins, who, by the way, are following policies, if you bothered to get familiar with them. Don't try and wikilawyer about this block...if he returns to his trolling (action description), then the block should be for a month, or indefinitely.--MONGO 07:07, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't believe you know enough of my background to make assertions that I haven't had experience in dealing with "these types of situations". I am not assuming the bad faith of any admin, and I have bothered to get familiar with Misplaced Pages policies, and calling someone a troll repeatedly, which is what some admins have been doing, is listed as a personal attack on the WP:NPA page. Being an admin doesn't make calling someone a troll repeatedly somehow OK. I have not accused you of anything, and I expect the same treatment from you. Firsfron of Ronchester 07:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Look at the editing history, examine the facts about this editors patterns and then make a well educated guess at what his intentions are. I see almost nothing but trolling editing patterns and not any loss to the community if he were to be blocked indefinitely. If the week block allows him to reform, then great, it served its purpose. If he returns to the same patterns, then why waste our time with him? Arguing about silly little words like troll is ridiculous considering the borderline harassment he has imposed a few RFA nominees to with his WP:POINT voting record.--MONGO 07:44, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Mongo, I have agreed with you in the past. I agree with your above statement on several points: that this RFA was a disturbance, that blocks can make users reform, and that there are hopeless cases that cannot be reformed. I don't agree that violating an official policy about calling someone a troll repeatedly is OK if the person doing it is an administrator, or if the user somehow "deserves it": WP:NPA makes this clear. I don't agree that an over-1-week-long block for a first offence without even a warning message was appropriate: that's why we have rules on blocking. I don't agree that Masssiveego's voting on RFAs is harassment, even "borderline harassment". RFA has a long history of users !voting in ususual ways: my personal "favorite" was the "7/24ths edits must be in talk space" requirement someone was using for a while. Firsfron of Ronchester 08:04, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, what a sorry mess this has turned out to be

I have agreed with CBD throughout most of this discussion although I think he probably got a little too sharp in his defense of User:Masssiveego. I'm sorry that User:W.marsh has been so offended as to want to leave. I agree with Ligulem that such petulance is a bit ridiculous, even to the point of being... uh, well, I guess I better not say that as it would be considered uncivil.

I think User:Masssiveego has a problem although I can't quite figure out what it is. I first became aware of his RFA voting via a query that he made asking if he could be blocked for voting Oppose on RFAs. The answer was "No although it would help to provide reasons". Someone asked him what his criteria were and he gave a defensible answer although the standard was very high. I actually was starting to develop some respect for him. I am very disappointed and disillusioned by this joke RfA.

That said, I think blocking was an over-reaction. Either a massive oppose vote or SNOWballing the RFA would have been sufficient. It's not as if User:Masssiveego was vandalizing or engaging in serial incivility.

I admire CBD for his principled opposition to the block although I think it was a bit too spirited. I can understand why he went "over the top" in the face of opposition from just about everybody else.

I hope we can close ranks and get back to the work of building an encyclopedia.

Best regards to all.

--Richard 04:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I removed the RFA and did not intend to block Masssiveego. That the block has generated this much argument, however, surprises me; he was clearly trolling, to which the Misplaced Pages community is disappointingly susceptible. Ignore him and he'll go away. — Dan | talk 06:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks Richard, and I can see where my opposition might seem stronger than warranted... though that's likely more due to this sort of thing being a personal hot button of mine. I strongly believe that any sort of 'double standard' for admins is horribly bad for Misplaced Pages. I compare Massiveego putting up a 'silly' RfA and getting a week long block with no warning to Cyde 'vandalizing' user pages in 'funny' ways, unprotecting the Main page, et cetera to be 'silly' despite numerous warnings... and getting little blocks of 15 minutes or a few hours. That's not equitable. Massiveego was encouraged to post an RfA (by people who apparently didn't guess that it wouldn't be a serious attempt)... Cyde was strongly warned to stop. Which was more willfully disrupting the encyclopedia? The admin community looked at Cyde's much more disruptive and deliberate actions and placed minor blocks (about nine hours in total) which were entirely preventative in nature. They looked at Massiveego's action and placed an entirely punitive week long block and collectively went on a 'personal attack fest'. Before anyone freaks out... I'm not saying that Cyde should have been blocked longer. He shouldn't have - until he stopped being disruptive was all that was needed. I'm saying that there is an obvious disparity in treatment which does more damage to Misplaced Pages than all the trolls and vandals combined ever will... in large part because it serves to create trolls and vandals. --CBD 11:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

CBD for Wiki President! --Pussy Galore 17:24, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

...and suddenly, I find myself thinking, 'ok, maybe they had a point'. :] <j/k> <sarcasm> <do not take seriously> --CBD 21:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You make a very good point, which needs to be taken seriously, if users are to have the confidence that a just system prevails. Tyrenius 00:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Marudubshinki running a bot again

Marudubshinki (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) was previously blocked on a number of occasions and currently has an arbitration case being considered at Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/Marudubshinki for use of an unapproved bot against WP:BOT policy. He now appears to be running an unapproved python bot - . As an involved party in the RFAR, I would prefer not to get any more involved at this time. Could someone deal with this please. -- I@n 14:02, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Requests_for_arbitration/Marudubshinki/Workshop#Proposed_temporary_injunctions That section is empty, perhaps a temp AC inj. needs to be seeked. – Chacor 14:16, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

There's a thread about this on this page already, scroll up a bit. I'm not aware that you need approval to run a script that requires human approval to make each edit, which seems to be what he was doing this time (see the other thread for my explanation of why this almost certainly wasn't an unattended bot). (after edit conflict) As Chacor mentions, seek an injunction if you want him to be stopped from using any kind of special assistance to edit. --W.marsh 14:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, but I didn't see that thread above, and your response there makes sense to me, although I would have thought that running the bot (human-assisted or not) has a sniff of arrogance given the RFAR. I withdraw this request. -- I@n 14:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I've blocked him again. I wouldn't recommend unblocking at this point until his arbitration is over because it's becoming quite clear that we cannot trust him not to run unauthorized bots no matter how many times we ask him to. If he wants to make a statement, let him do so to his user talk page and have someone copy it over to the arbitration page. --Cyde Weys 22:11, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

It's also quite clear we can't trust you not to run unauthorized bots, but you aren't blocked. If his edits aren't a problem why should he be blocked? --Nscheffey 23:21, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Cydebot is authorized. It even has a bot flag. What are you on about? --Cyde Weys 23:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Merely pointing out that when you were questioned about your bot doing things it hadn't been authorized to do, your response was "whatever," but now you seem to think running unauthorized bots calls for immediate blocking. Even stranger, your bot's unauthorized activity was substing a template that shouldn't have been substed, requiring a non-admin to manually revert all its edits, whereas all of Maru's robot assisted edits appear to be good faith and constructive. Just wondering how your philosophy on unauthorized bots has evolved over time. --Nscheffey 00:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

You seem to be arguing an entirely different issue, that bots should be approved for each separate task (which is arguable). What I'm arguing is that bots need to be approved, period. That's not arguable and that is a basic part of the bot policy. --Cyde Weys 00:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

From WP:BOT: "Sysops should block bots, without hesitation, if they are unapproved, doing something the operator did not say they would do." So, the idea that "bots should be approved for each separate task" is "arguable" in the sense that "The Earth is round." is arguable. --Nscheffey 00:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Why don't you do a poll then. See how many people actually think that a bot must be granted separate permissions to run each different functionality available in pyWikipediaBot. --Cyde Weys 01:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

OK, but let's phrase the poll like this: "Once a bot has been approved for one purpose, it should then be allowed to do whatever the operator feels like." --Nscheffey 01:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Please stop turning a legitimate policy question into a personal atack on Cyde. Georgewilliamherbert 01:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Personal attacks do not include civil language used to describe an editor's actions. --Nscheffey 02:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

As a previously uninvolved third party, in my judgement, the phrasing of your comment was a snide attack, not a legitimate policy question. There is a legitimate policy question here, yes. That was an inappropriate and unnecessary way to describe the point.

NPA and WP:CIVIL doesn't mean "don't make these points", it means "make them in a polite manner". Cyde was not baiting you or attacking you; there was no reason to respond in that unpolite a manner.

As I am not an administrator, all I can do is say "Shame on you" here, but please. It was uncalled for. Not only does rude discourse make discussions less pleasant, it obscures legitimate policy issues which may underly the discussion. Your question about interpretations of the bot policy is interesting and a valid question. Instead of debating that, you've taken us off sideways onto an unrelated point. Why did you do this? Georgewilliamherbert 03:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry you found some of my rhetorical devices snide or rude. But I maintain that I never attacked Cyde as a person, only his actions and arguments. And since I still haven't recieved a satisfactory answer to what you describe as a "legitimate policy question" it's hard to feel remorseful. --Nscheffey 03:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Let's steer the issue away from Cydebot and Cyde. We've both stated our positions in regard to Cydebot's approval status. Belaboring the point in this topic really doesn't seem to do the issue proper justice and will likely rapidly descend into personal attacks. alphaChimp 03:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Pornographic pictures (full male penis') in watermelon search

Please note I am not sure how this all works, but when daughter was searching for info. on growing seedless watermelons in florida via google, the following link was unacceptable, especially when think have the right protocols in place to protect children - apparently need to ban wikipedia due to risks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/Watermelon

link via search words in google "growing seedless watermelons outside Florida"

Please accept full apologies for the inadvertent appearance of an inappropriate image in this article. It was due to an act of vandalism, which was reverted as soon as it was discovered. Because of wikipedia's open access policy such things do occur occasionally, but are generally corrected within a few minutes. As a user, you are welcome to do that correction yourself if you spot it, and to warn the user or post here to draw an admin's attention. Tyrenius 02:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no picture of a penis in that article, and if there was it probably would have been removed ASAP for vandalism. There would be a picture of a penis in Penis and pictures of breasts in Breast, as Misplaced Pages is not censored for the protection of minors. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 20:18, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Please do your homework before telling someone something didn't happen and trotting out the wikipedia isn't censored thing.pschemp | talk 20:39, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Or you can try reading my post. CanadianCaesar Et tu, Brute? 21:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I did. It implies that the picture might not have been there, which is rude to the newbies (whether you meant it that way or not). If you didn't sorry. A much more polite explanation is the one by LinaMishima below, which leves no doubt as to its intentions to help. pschemp | talk 21:26, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

The taxobox template was vandalised with that oh-so-popular penis image; it was caught in a couple of minutes. Template is now locked. Shimgray | talk | 20:23, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages makes no assertions of the safety or suitability of any of it's content. Please see the General disclaimer linked to at the bottom of every single page. It is the parents' responsibility to check websites for suitability, and all related software does not excuse them from this duty. Debates are ongoing as to what procedures can be used to mitigate such problems without causing a radical shift in openness, and you are welcome to join in with them. LinaMishima 20:42, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yea I mangaged to get an penis image with an article that had the template in random earlier today. Jaranda 21:28, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like someone added a penis to the taxobox. I've long been wondering why vandals hit individual articles rather than widely-used templates ... maybe they are "learning". Anyway, it might be a good idea to protect every template that is used on more than X pages, where X is open for debate. --Cyde Weys 22:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalizing templates that are used on alot of articles is certainly nothing new. I think we should decide on a case-by-case basis whether a template should be (semi)-protected, tho. Template:Taxobox has just been semi-protected, anyways. --Conti|✉ 22:22, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't think this is exactly what Conti meant, but in a similar vein I suggest that we first try semi-protecting these widely-used templates, see if that solves the problem, before moving to full-protection of these templates. Not only does it adhere to the principle that anyone can edit Misplaced Pages, but (more importantly, IMHO) it slows the escalation of vandalism/reaction & gives us more time to consider if there is a better solution to this problem. -- llywrch 19:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Template:Infobox_Celebrity got hit by the same vandal a fews days ago too. I've semi-protected it for now. And for good measure, I've also full-protected Template:administrator because it's too tempting a target. --  Netsnipe  ►  11:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Moving an article marked for deletion

Hi. Question here.

Five days ago, I marked The Cheetah Girls (TV Series) for deletion (the AfD discussion can be found here). Since the discussion has began, the article has been moved twice - first to The Cheetah Girls Sitcom, then to The Cheetah Girls: The Series. I'm going to ask; is moving an article that's marked for deletion allowed? –NeoChaosX 00:40, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Absolutely not. It can be seen as vandalism, in fact, if it's done as an attempt to evade the deletion. If the consensus of the AfD was "change to ," then that should be performed at the end of the AfD, by the closer. Anyone doing anything prior to that should indicate on the AfD that it's being contemplated, then that it's done. Geogre 01:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • As long as the deletion discussion is moved too, I don't see what the problem is. Unless, of course, none of the participants are aware of the move and get confused trying to find the discussion.--KojiDude 01:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
    • If it wasn't wrong, I have moved the article back to the original name. Ryūlóng 03:28, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• The problem with moves during AfD is that it evades the closing decision, and this is particularly true if there is a double move, as the closer finds a redirect to a redirect, and it's even possible that the first redirect will have been deleted as a double redirect. My point is that AfD is a sort of freeze frame, unless we know in advance. Trust me: it can be very bad mojo. Geogre 11:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Okay, now that the article's been moved back (thanks Ryulong), can an admin come in and close this AfD? Think it's been oer 5 days now. NeoChaosX 18:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I see no problems with moving an article marked for AfD. A redirect will remain there, so it's not evading the decision at all, and if it's moved twice, double redirects are bypassed to make them single redirects, not deleted. Even if they were deleted, the deletion log would show that it was just a redirect and where it pointed to, so the closer could always find the article. --Rory096 19:20, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I have no intention of violating WP:BEANS by explaining more, but there are very good reasons to disallow page moves that are not discussed on the AfD. Telling folks on the AfD that you're doing the redirect (if it's suggested) and inviting review is one thing. Doing the move to effectively hide in the clover is quite another. Further, we have had people brought to ArbCom for, among other things, deciding that redirects were the universal solution to the "deletion problem." Again: it's a general no-no, and people moving articles, especially those moving them twice, probably violate the premise of AGF and should be presumptively treated as vandals. Geogre 01:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Squeakbox and Hagiographer (again), review please

I need some help with a situation at Arb enforcement and beyond. Hagiographer (talk · contribs) posted a complaint about Squeakbox evading a one-month block. However this "block evasion" was editing his own talk page, which is permitted. I find in reviewing the case that on August 18, Hagiographer altered Squeakbox's signature to that of a user he suspected of being Squeakbox's sock puppet.

There is also a complaint that Hagiographer included a personal attack in this prod notice filed on an article about Squeakbox's grandfather, which I agree is a significantly abusive attempt to troll against a blocked user. However, the prod was removed and the complaint filed by two new users, Relator (talk · contribs) and Mister Shower (talk · contribs), who I suspect are Squeakbox sock puppets. Since the socks have not edited articles other than to respond to Hagiographer's trolling, I recommend blocking them but not extending Squeakbox's ban, currently set to end Sept 22. I also recommend a significant block for Hagiographer for trolling, at least a week and possibly as long as 18 days, to end when Squeakbox's block ends. Hagiographer should not be allowed to take advantage of Squeakbox's block by trolling him in this way. Comments please. (Also I can't throw the blocks myself). Thatcher131 (talk) 01:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I endorse the summary & actions. Hagiographer's recent seem to focus of taunting SB and "admin-shopping" - spamming admins in alphabetical order with the hope of achieving his desired outcome. Guettarda 02:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm very happy that my User name starts with a "Z" :) User:Zoe|(talk) 01:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hagiographer's defense

• You claim I've changed SqueakBox's signature. Well, he changed a post of mine here in the arbitration enforcement page. The rules in the top of that page state clearly that the header of any complaint must be the name of the user you're complaining about. If I was complaining about SqueakBox, what was the meaning of changing the header to "SqueakBox and Zapatancas"? Nobody did anything at the time. Here he redirected to his user page Misplaced Pages:Suspected sock puppets/SqueakBox and removed any evidence that a sock puppetry accusation (started by me) had been posted. Nobody took any action. Did anybody warn SqueakBox at the time? SqueakBox was blocked on August 24 because he had accessed the Misplaced Pages during his first month ban as User:Skanking. Skanking was blocked on July 26. That is, it took a month to enforce a simple ban! Well, I changed the signature of SqueakBox to other signature of him (because Pura Paja is SqueakBox). Did you really want me to believe in those circunstances that changing SqueakBox's signature to that of his sock puppet when he was trying to deceive honest, neutral users making them believe Pura Paja was simply another Wikipedian and not a sock puppet of him repeating his typical vandalism was so serious? Nobody was enforcing the simplest decisions although I was getting tired of asking them to be enforced (example) and nobody was answering me! SqueakBox had changed my edits blatantly and nobody had done anything!!! And you want to punish me for that now, when I had already been punished by being placed under POV parole and being banned from editing Zapatero's articles although I've simply removed vandalism from them? I believe that in the American Constitution can be read that the same person cannot be put in risk of limb twice for the same offense (or something like that). Does that not apply in the Misplaced Pages?
• User:Guettarda has exposed here "his opinion" without recognizing that he has had some clashes with me. Is that the behavior recommended for administrators? This administrator has been harassing me of late. Here he posted in my talk page that I'm obssesed with other editor (SqueakBox), that I like picking fights with other people. If those aren't personal attacks tell me what they are. I tell him here that SqueakBox was accessing the Misplaced Pages from an IP although he is blocked (that IP has already been blocked fortunately ) and he showed no interest at all. In SqueakBox's user page there is an insult against me: "My greatest achievements here have been and restoring José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero from the POV of another user who claims to write about saints." Hagiographer means writing about saints. It's clear that's a personal attack. SqueakBox has been blocked for that!, see his block log. Guettarda protected that page so that insult that I don't know what it has to be tolerated couldn't be marked as what it is. I marked it as a personal attack here, as I didn't feel I had a right to remove something to which I was directly involved, and that even though WP:NPA states that, although isn't considered an official policy, removing personal attacks is common and even welcome.
• Guettarda and SqueakBox have been involved in the past in harassment campaigns against other users. In User:SqueakBox can be found a barnstar given by Guettarda when he congratulates SqueakBox for expelling other users (whom he insults calling them strange) from Javier Solana. Although he cannot be neutral as a consquence he has had no qualms in persecuting me, a honest wikipedian who only asked not to be insulted.
• Guettarda is accusing me unfairly of "admin-shopping" "spamming admins in alphabetical order with the hope of achieving desired outcome". I simply want that insult to be removed. I've tried to unprotect the page. That request was denied. I understood that the reason was: "Only you know you're being insulted so no need to take any action". That was what I understood at least. So I tried to look for a second opinion, as the first didn't convince me. I've not written WP:NPA. It's there where personal attacks are banned. SqueakBox has been banned for that insult. What's the use of banning the person and keeping the insult? I'd rather prefer it the other way around. Is that such a crime? I'm from Spain so, it seems most administrators are sleeping when I access the Misplaced Pages, if I ask several of them the answer is expected to be faster and the problem can be solved sooner. And well, when SqueakBox created Skanking it was pretty clear he had to be blocked. It took a month! If believing that finding an administrator with time enough to analyze a situation in depth with that precedent is a crime, ok, I'm a criminal. I've posted tons of messages complaining for SqueakBox's insults and breaches of his ban and most of them have simply been ignored. This time, I've simply asked the administrator community for help. Is that an attack so terribly against the Misplaced Pages? That is, SqueakBox insults me. Guettarda enforces that insult and start harassing and insulting me. I post a message to ten administrators of whom, probably, at least seven are sleeping at the time so, probably, the problem will be solved before they even log in. The final deduction is: Hagiographer is a troll. And it would be solved if an administrator would haven't decided it was "spam" thus breaking WP:AGF
• In regard to the proposal for deletion, as far as I know I've followed the process. At the time I didn't know a Vfd had already taken place. In fact, that proves it's not so strange to believe that article had to be deleted. You claim I'm trolling against a user (?) As far as I know, articles don't belong to any user (see WP:OWN). And, certainly, the best argument to delete an article is that only a user in all the Misplaced Pages (the grandson of the subject!) is interested in it. So, from a logical point of view there are only two options taking into account WP:OWN:

1. Several users find the article interesting. Then, why am I trolling against only one? I would be trolling against all of them.
2. Only one user is interested in the article. Then, how can be considered to ask an article to be deleted when only the granson is interested in it so unreasonable?

How can I troll against a blocked user in this case? I know nobody will answer.

• Could somebody explain to me where are those so terrible attacks in the prod notice. Give me an example of other encyclopedia where there is an article about Roberto Weiss (that's one of those attacks, isn't it?)? Is it such a crime to believe that an article has been created by the grandson of its subject because only the grandson is interested in it. Is that worse than this comment by SqueakBox in which he says that: I've chased off legitimate users (his sock puppet Skanking) with "false accusations" o that I don't know what integrity (or honradez in Spanish) means? Nobody cares about that. Of course, posting something like that is not the same that asking an administrator (well, several) for help. Here is other intersting edit in which SqueakBox says to User:Kilo-Lima that he's nothing but a kid, that there is no interest in what he says, that he has to grow up a bit and so on. Nobody cares, but of course posting something like that has nothing to do with following strictly the proposed for deletion process. By the way, when the Pura Paja sock puppetry case was started, Kilo Lima warned that he wasn't going to examine that case as he had a conflict with SqueakBox. That proves he deserved the insults. User Guettarda, in a similar situation, would have acted "differently".

So, as a conclusion:

1. SqueakBox page will continue to be filled with insults against me. I deserve it. Who I believe I am to ask an administrator (well, several) to remove a personal attack against me?
2. The proposed for deletion issue could've been solved easily: a message in my talk page stating that an AfD had already been rejected. Of course, it's better to ignore WP:AGF and claim that I wanted to troll a blocked user because, taking into account WP:OWN, biographies belong only to grandsons. In the prod notice is also stated that "If you created the article, please don't take offense." That implies, evidently, that following the prod process is a direct attack that cannot be tolerated. If mustn' be forgotten that SqueakBox hasn't asked a user page not to be used as a platform to attack him, the worst crime that can be imagined, so some privileges must be recognized.
3. SqueakBox can change other user's comments but if a newbie, after seeing how his comments are removed or changed, after being ignored when he asked several times an arbcom decision to be enforced, after being ignored when he reported personal attacks decides to answer in kind tired of the lawlessness he perceives everywhere then he must be punished once and, two weeks later, threatened and probably punished. Well, I supposed that if instead of combating SqueakBox's vandalism and trusting the administrators I would have become a minion in some administrator's campaigns of harassment then I would have had no problem at all. Perhaps, the Misplaced Pages is about that.
4. I'm going to be banned for 17 days, until SqueakBox ends his ban. Misplaced Pages:Requests for arbitration/SqueakBox and Zapatancas states that SqueakBox, and Zapatancas, can be blocked at most for one week for editing Zapatero's related articles or breaking their parole and the same conditions apply to me. As far as I know, I haven't any precedent against me but, well, I will not be blocked for five days, as a warn, but for 17 days. Weeks are different over here. Maybe as claiming I'm attacked anybody is so dubious the punishment must be increased. It's pure logic. I've placed this at the bottom. Nobody is going to read this so when I will be blocked for 17 days this will be a good proof of what are the values dominant here.

I don't know why I've spent any time writing this. I know you're going to pay no attention to it. Every decision that has to be taken has already been taken. Well, it's clear you're having the time of your lifes in the Misplaced Pages!!! Hagiographer 09:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• I don't think you should be able to take advantage of Squeakbox's block to bait him. You could have placed the prod without personal references; you could even have waited until 9/22 knowing that it was an article that was important to Squeakbox. Regarding the other issues, there hasn't been a lot of attention paid to Arb Enforcement; I may start hanging out there more often but I'm not going back 2 months. Banning you from Zapatero was supposed to stop you from getting on each other's backs but all it has done was move the disruption around. Both of you need to cool off and quit it. As far as the block is concerned, I'm not an admin (yet) and Guettarda hasn't actually blocked you (which is proper if you two have had a dispute), so unless some other admins take an interest, you may get away with baiting Squeakbox this time as well. Thatcher131 (talk) 11:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• Regarding the sig issue between SB and H, "he did it first" is not a viable excuse for misbehaviour.
• I have no conflict with Hagiographer - being on the receiving end of his rather amusing comments in no way constitues "conflict" (if that were the case then someone could attack every admin on the project and be unblockable). I warned him about his disruptive behaviour. That doesn't constitute "conflict".
• "Guettarda and SqueakBox have been involved in the past in harassment campaigns against other users" - this is a blatent falsehood. A year or two ago User:Cumbey insisted in inserting claims that Javier Solana was the anti-Christ into his article. When SB opposed her, she threatened to have him arrested, and "outed" him on her web page. Her behaviour was bizarre, and I gave SB a barnstar for defending the integrity of the article in the face of threats and intimidation.
• I protected SB's user page per his request to end an edit-war. I expressed no opinion on the content of the article, but despite Hagiographer's request for unprotection, repeated appeals to Tony Sidaway, and most recently, admin-spamming, no admin has chosen to unprotect the page or remove the comments that Hagiographer believes to be a personal attack. Nor has any admin asked me to reconsider my page protection.
• With regards to his prod'ing SB's grandfather - the issue isn't whether the action was done in accordance with procedure or not. The issue here is one of motivation. The action smacks of bad-faith intent. After I told Hagiographer to lay off baiting SB, his first Main namespace edit in a week is to prod SB's grandfather - an article which survived a VFD easily when it was last nominated. In addition, his rationale for prod'ing the article was that it was SB's grandfather. I really have a hard time seeing it as anything but abuse of the system. Guettarda 22:12, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

In this case, it is. SqueakBox changed my comments in a page full of administrators experts in the rules and nothing happened. How could I imagine that to do something SqueakBox did with total impunity would mean constant threats against me of being punished forever? As SqueakBox changes and deletes other users' comments whenever he wants I thought it was normal. It's a matter of learning curve. You see people doing something and getting away with it and you think it's accepted. By the way, SqueakBox changes other user comments in his user pages claiming they are personal attacks (example). And Cumbey hadn't been blocked for them. Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The Misplaced Pages is about transparency. If another user has complaint for your unpleasant comments the least you can do is: "I post this opinion about this user, who has complained about me". Every possible conflict of interest must be exposed. Claiming I like picking fights isn't much like being in the "receiving end". In my opinion is quite funny that view of: "User A has a conflict with me, but I have no conflict with him". Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• "If those aren't personal attacks tell me what they are" - I thought it was pretty clear - they are a warning to stop abusing his editing privileges here. Using Misplaced Pages in this manner is unacceptable. That's a simple statement, not an attack.

To warn a person you need to insult him saying he likes picking fights when you know that person is being insulted? That he had to lay off the rhetoric? SqueakBox had used an anonymous IP address to access the Misplaced Pages although he was blocked (isn't that unacceptable?) you were warned and you did nothing and you claim you are being impartial?

• Why it is "unfair" to call his actions what they are?

Criticising a person for asking help from the administrator community (as far as I know, administrators have privileges for that, not to prevent insults from being removed) is very unfair, in my opinion. Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what happened exactly at the time but WP:NPA states clearly that "Personal attacks against any user - regardless of his/her past behaviour - are contrary to spirit." Why is your right to say other person is "strange"? I've read some comments by Cumbey and, according to her, SqueakBox was all day long reminding her that in Honduras libel offenses are criminal and that she could end up in jail if she ever travel there and so on. So, why don't you share also that information? Where is the difference between SqueakBox's and Cumbey's behavior? Perhaps if you would have listened to her point of view instead of insulting her you all would have felt happier at the end. Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Guettarda, Tony Sidaway blocked SqueakBox for that comment. No admin has answered me yet, but that in the request for unprotection who answered: Only you know you are being insulted! To block SqueakBox took a month after proving Skanking was his sock puppet. Are you claiming that if no administrator does something something mustn't be done? In that case, you are implying ArbCom's bans means simply you have to create a sock puppet. By the way, this problem has been caused by you. On August 22, SqueakBox posted a message in his talk page (where it can still be found) in which he said: "If you would like me to remove anything from please ask here and I can get one of my workers, who are not banned, to do so." So, even SqueakBox recognizes he has not acted correctly and doesn't mind about removing that insult. Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My rationale was that there are millions of people who have been professors and have written books. My father is an example of that, and nobody knows him in Spain. Can I create about him an article with photographs of our holidays? What's the meaning of WP:AGF in your view? Hagiographer 07:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Owwmykneecap

• Owwmykneecap (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log). This user seems to have a grudge against me for attempting to get the article Daigo Umehara deleted way back when, and has insisted on leaving disruptive messages on my talk page. I at first left him a mildly hostile message, which I probably shouldn't have done, but since then I've basically ignored the messages and left NPA templates on his page. The messages haven't stopped. Should something be done, or should I just keep ignoring him? 03:26, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
  • More snarky behavior here. Maybe he thinks Misplaced Pages should be GameFAQs? Danny Lilithborne 06:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo

For quite some time I've noticed User:Ghirlandajo. While he is normally a beneficial contributor to articles and works hard to maintain high quality articles, I've consistently seen incivility and trolling coming from him. I recently went through his contributions from the past few days and came up with these edits.

Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff — Template:Wp-diff

I have been involved with Ghirlandajo in the past so I'd rather not block him myself, but I'm wondering what other administrator's opinions are about whether something should be done or not about Ghirlandajo's behavior. Should more evidence appear, an arbcom case may be in order, as well. Cowman109 14:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've asked him to tone it down . --Tony Sidaway 15:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

• He has only passed his opinions. you may not like them, but they are not obscene and some people may say to the point. There is no case in Wiki-law to either block him or take him to the arb-com. Giano | talk 15:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocking him for these comments would be a supremely bad idea. Especially in cases that are so (sigh) controversial, we should let people express disagreement, or even disgust, with how things are being done. There's a difference between personal attacks and strongly-worded critcism. That said, asking him to tone is down is surely reasonable- I just hope nobody actually blocks over this. Friday (talk) 15:32, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Given the circumstances, I consider that his reaction is a bit strong, but entirely stays within reasonable boundaries. -- Grafikm 15:34, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

His response to my request to tone it down was defiant and inflammatory . Three hours to cool down.

15:32, 5 September 2006 Tony Sidaway (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) blocked Ghirlandajo (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) with an expiry time of 3 hours (Unreasonable and defiant response to request to tone down after multiple instances of gross incivility) --Tony Sidaway 15:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Would have been better to just let it go. 3 hours isn't much, sure, but a block under these circumstances merely fans the flames. Friday (talk) 15:36, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I recognize that he is a valuable contributor in the article namespace, though I feel that his interactions with users are damaging to the project and its contributors and he seriously needs to tone things down, which is why I brought this here. Cowman109 15:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

That is not gross incivility, that is vitriol from you. Giano | talk 15:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Ghirlandajo has persistently been uncivil and edit warred. I've made my position clear on the matter, suggesting arbitration first months ago, and again since then ( and ) but the kind of people he is in disputes with are the kind of people that prefer conflict to dispute resolution. Perhaps that has changed now. Dmcdevit·t 16:00, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish you could provide any samples of my incivility or edit warring during the last month or so. The affair with Piotrus has nothing to do with the issue of Carnildo's RfA. I don't know how I was "involved" with the author of this thread. At least I don't remember having met him before. Neither do I remember him posting any concerns on my talk page. When a stranger comes to WP:ANI and asks to block a well-established contributor... and he gets instantly blocked by a person whom that contributor criticised an hour ago... well, it is called... Wiki-justice, apparently. --Ghirla 22:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet in the present case, his reaction, if a bit strong, does not qualify as blatant incivility. (I'm not talking about the exchange with Tony, but about the original diffs posted by Cowman). -- Grafikm 16:03, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm a bit disgusted as well. Since we're writing an encyclopedia, as a rule of thumb, mistreating prolific contributors is generally speaking a bad idea. -- Grafikm 15:59, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

A 3 hour block for a "defiant and inflammatory response" (I reviewed it, I agree) to a very civil request to mellow out a bit is not in any way mistreatment. Prolific contributor or not. Repeat after me: "Allowances, yes. Free passes, no." ++Lar: t/c 16:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Which "allowances" do you talk about? That you allowed me to write Russo-Polish War (1654-1667) and Svensky Monastery before you blocked me, for reasons unknown, and prevented me from posting other articles today? Well, thank you for such "allowances". Their only result is to spawn martyrs of unfair blocks and admin persecution. Who did you punish by your block - me, yourself or the project? And what is the *real* aim of it all, if me, Giano, ALoan, etc are advised to leave? Who would write articles for us? Carnildo? --Ghirla 22:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

As I pointed out just above while answering to Dmcdevit, what shocks me the most is not Tony's block in itself, but rather two other things.

First, initial Ghirla's remarks (again, I'm not talking about his reply to TS) were certainly strong criticism, but calling them incivil, or worse yet, "trolling" is actually a bit far-fetched.

Second, you will agree that the circumstances during which all these things were said were qualified by more than one users as controversial. Consequently, trying to quiet things down in such a clumsy way is imho a bad way to proceed. -- Grafikm 16:23, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know any history associated with this user, but the comments listed—including the "defiant response"—are not trolling, they are slightly angry and do not warrant any preventive block. —Centrx→talk • 16:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree, and I also think that Tony doing the blocking himself looks particularly bad. It comes off looking like a case of "Oh, you disagree with me? Alright, you're blocked." Now Ghirlandajo is complaining of being bullied- is this what we wanted? Friday (talk) 16:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I must say that Tony's block is an abuse of admin's rights, to put it mildly. Ever since I raised the issue of striking a balance between admins's indecisivenss leading to trollfest on one hand and admins through the hasty and unchecked application of the admin tools harming Misplaced Pages and its editors, I've seen no headway to this. Ghirlandajo's entries that started this whole thing could have been milder but in no way they warranted a block. Particularly, a 3 hour block is a totally useless action whose only purpose may be intimidation by adding to the user's block log. If it's purpose was warning, it is no more effective than a verbal warning added at talk. I find the particular action of Tony, normally a reasonable and useful admin with no nonsense judgement to be dangereous, unwarranted and harmful and I strongly call on him to take a breath and think it over instead of continueing in the mode of insinctive self-defence and/or defiance.

I consider admins who don't hesitate to use their judgement to fend off trolls an important asset of Misplaced Pages and Tony is one of such admins. At the same time, whoever takes it upon herself to use the judgement bock should not do it carelessly. I hope Tony will post to Ghirla in a different tone to put this matter behind. I also hope that some admin will have a courage to click the unblock button, even if symbolically, to have a blocking log show that the block was controversial.

I would be sorry to see my hopes remain just a wishful thinking. --Irpen 16:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not involved in any dispute with Ghirlandajo (I honestly don't think I've ever encountered him before today). I blocked him because his response to a request to cool it was defiant and inflammatory. I hope that he will take this time to reflect on his interactions with other editors on Misplaced Pages. --Tony Sidaway 16:54, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I tend to believe in your honesty, although both of your assertions above are actually incorrect. I criticised you and Kelly Martin, an hour later you blocked me, citing that very diff as an offense, and now you and Kelly say that you are perfectly impartial? Well, it's all that old "punishing admins vs. hard-working editors" history for me. --Ghirla 22:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I wasn't particularily aware that you had criticized me. In any case, you are not entitled to protect yourself from being blocked by picking a fight with the admins likely to block you for picking fights. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Some reflection all around would be good. All too often, peoploe create drama where none was needed. Friday (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Tony, I asked you to think it over. You posted at once instead with something that was obvious to come out from the "at once" post. Please give it another thought and don't respond at once. I stand by my opinion that the block was harmful and unwarranted and I would like to see the harm undone, that's all. No one questioned your right to use your judgement or your good faith. You made a mistake and anyone is entitled to. Give it a thought. --Irpen 17:01, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've given my block reason and expanded on it. I've no objection to review and undoing of the block, but would rather see this done by someone who honestly believes that it was harmful and that good would be done by undoing it. I have of course reflected on this at length (even before you suggested that I do) and that is still my opinion. --Tony Sidaway 17:27, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This is getting silly, people. An admin warning an editor that their conduct is unacceptable, and then subseqeuently blocking that editor for continuing the same conduct, is not an abuse of administrative authority. Tony did not become "in conflict" with Ghirlandajo when he warned Ghirl to stop being a dick. Kelly Martin (talk) 17:33, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I would like to know what is the purpose of blocking wikipedians who contributed hundreds articles to this project, especially in such borderline cases as this one. What's the point - to punish? to scare? to show that it's you who have the tools? People with my experience tend to be immune to short-term blocks. You should have blocked for a month. An advise for the future. --Ghirla 22:55, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't matter how many articles you've contributed; if your conduct is disruptive, you will be blocked. Kelly Martin (talk) 12:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No one is blaming Tony for an ethics violation of blocking someone who he had been in conflict with. The point here is the honest judgement error. The block was unwarranted and hasty, which does not make it a bad faith block. As for behavior, the behavior did not call for the block in the first place. Anyway, since Tony is sure he's done the right thing after this discussion, I guess there is nothing to convince him otherwise, I guess. --Irpen 17:38, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

This is getting silly. No honest observer could ever interpret Ghirlandajo's comments as "gross incivility." Several of the comments cited are him telling other users to ignore drama and focus on the encyclopedia. None of them is any any way uncivil or a personal attack. In one of them, he complains about admins being more concerned with blocking editors than with building an encyclopedia. For this, a well-known block-happy admin issues a stern warning on his talk page, accusing him of gross incivility. His response was certainly defiant, but also civil and in my opinion just. Of course he is now blocked, for three hours to "calm down". Ludicrous. I can't imagine how any sane person could think this block would help the situation at all. Breath-takingly inappropriate. --Nscheffey 21:58, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

POV and incorrect assertions

Hopefully I am reporting this to the right place. In regards to http://en.wikipedia.org/Pocket_PC I have continued to revert the bits of Igor Sotelo's contributions that are POV or are incorrect assertions, but he continues to revert my corrections. We have discussed on the talk page in length but cannot come to concensus. Please review and take action as appropriate. Thankyou for your time. Timeshift 15:16, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Unsure why I have not got a response from an admin. If this is the incorrect place to request this, please let me know where I should be doing so. Thankyou. Timeshift 04:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User Spinoza1111

After the mediation at Misplaced Pages:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2006-08-15_Immanuel_Kant this user has continued to post disparaging remarks at that page, and has now placed the following remarks on my talk page:

Spinoza1111 11:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)These comments alone constitute evidence that "mediation" == "kangaroo court". You're an idea vandal and a thug, because instead of reworking new contributions, you erase them and start personal attacks, misusing mediation without giving the target an opportunity to reply. You also make legally actionable aspersions of "plagarism" (sic). If you continue this behavior, you may find yourself in a real court of law.

I had to put up with your shit to make two elementary enhancements to the article, to add the well-known link between Kant and Brouwer/Heyting, and to raise the concerns (bruited not only by Brand Blanshard but also by Bertrand Russell) about philosophical style. The latter happens to be key to understanding Kant because, as P. F. Strawson wrote in 1959 (look up the goddamn cite yourself), Kant was at the bounds of sense.

What I find most amusing about your "contribution" to wikipedia: it's all about process and procedure and can indeed be performed by someone ignorant of texts, who covers up this ignorance with babble about "citation". There are those of us, and I am one, who were publishing papers with citations while you were watching scooby doo, sonny boy, so watch your mouth.

Instead of the dialogue characteristic of wikipedia at its finest, I was harassed, libeled, and subject to a "mediation" process that consisted of snide personal attacks and in which I wasn't even given an opportunity to reply.

So fart in a bottle and paint it. It's trolls like you that will make a joke out of Misplaced Pages.

What are my options to get this user off my back and simply accept the decision? Amerindianarts 17:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have issued him with two personal attack warnings (including a final one) for these and related comments. This user is under careful observation and is very close to getting blocked. My suggestion is you should ignore his provocations and continue to edit. If he continues with these personal attacks or other disruptive edits, please feel free to drop me a note on my talk page. Best, Gwernol 17:18, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked Spinoza1111 for a week, for several egregious personal attacks made after the final warning. --ajn (talk) 08:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Lewisranja and 220.1.234.8

I've moved this report from WP:AIV alphaChimp 17:35, 5 September 2006 (UTC) Lewisranja (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) and 220.1.234.8 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) (same person) Please see Talk:transphobia. This user first started as the above named IP, and created an account once given final warnings for both WP:NPA and WP:VAND. As an IP, this user repeatedly violated WP:3RR to do so (as of course, a vandal would). It shows in the articles history that I am not the only person that finds this users edits disruptive, in spite of everything discussed with him. Please review because the situation is certainly somewhat intolerable. Despite leaving a message requesting help on the talk page of two admins, a listing on WP:NPA, and a wikiquette alert, so far nobody has doene anything whatsoever to diffuse this situation since the users vandalism was reverted by said two admins a few days ago. Crimsone 15:08, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

The user continues to vandalise under both the account and the IP. Another user today equally considered the edis this morning to be vandalism, citing the talk page as evidence. I have since done the same today. Could I please plead again for some kind of review of this situation, because it's not something that anybody other than an admin would have any authority over. Kindest regards, Crimsone 00:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if the users reverts were in good faith (which they clearly aren't - they're vandalism, or POV pushing at the very best), the user has just once more violated WP:3RR again under the user Lewisranja. This of course even discounts any edits made by his alter ego, 220.1.234.8. While I appreciate that administrators are in fact very busy voluteers, surely this user has demonstrated enough contempt for policy, dispute resolution, consensus, and of course myself to warrant somebody saying at least something about the issue? Crimsone 06:48, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to step in her to clear my name. That being - Lewis Ranja. What Crimsone continues to refer to as "vandalism" is nothing more than a good-faithed effort to bring some neutrality and objectivity to what is, otherwise, an extremely biased (bordering on Orwellian) entry. I have made efforts to negotiate with Crimsone. I have altered my wording of the edit and have even made an effort to simply place a "Disputed Neutrality" ta to the top of this article. Both were removed. Crimsone's accomplice in what has become a severe act of serial vandalism-by-deletion has simply come to his aid so that they both permit this article to continue to provide Misplaced Pages with a very leftwing slant. Despite Crimsone's socio-political disagreements with me, I assure you that I am not a vandal and am, if anything, the victim of one. Lewisranja 07:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

All I need to say is that reasons for my actions are detailed on the articles talk page. They speak for themselves. Also, please do not assume my gender, and please don't accuse me of being in some kind of cabal because nothing could be further from the truth and there is no evidence for the accusation. I don't have an accomplice. The nonsense being added has been reverted by more people than just myself and the editor you mention anyway - it's a consensus I have no political position, nor a social one - only one stemming from wikipedias desire for accurate and informative encyclopedic articles with a neutral point of view Were the edit in any way informative or relevant to the subject of the article (see article talk for explanation), I would have no problem with it. Crimsone 07:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Not only am I being attacked, but I am now being attacked in my report of being personally attacked. My character is being defamed, my clinical depression mocked, and having outright lies told about me. Somebody please please please help. As you'll see from my contrib history, I've been on wiki all night helping others where I can - there's no good reason I should be suffering an unrelenting tirade like this. Crimsone 07:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: Both parties have violated the three revert rule and the no personal attacks policy (by, amongst other things, accusing each other of vandalism). While not an admin, I am attempting to cool matters down on the talk page. I'm going to ask both editors involved to refrain from further reverts on the article until discussion is completed. While starting my edit of the Transphobia talk page, I discovered that Lewisranja has been blocked (would be very helpful in future if an announcement was made on Incidents so others would be able to discover resolution more easily). Very sad that it had to come to this. I'll keep an eye on the article in case the dispute flares up again. Captainktainer * Talk 20:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The block resulted from my report on WP:NPA. Though I can see the strikeout on the comments, I fail to see where I violated NPA. To the best of my knowledge, I remained civil troughout, assuming good faith until such a point that I could no longer reasonably do so. Even there, I remained civil despite some very hurtful things being said - I requested admin intervention by via the talk pages of two admins very early on, then started issuing warnings, then posted a wiki alert, then this report, followed by a continued NPA report for some very hurtful attacks indeed and the user was finally blocked. The WP:3RR rule does not count towards reverting vandalism - this is not an accusation but an actual fact given everything said (and ignored by the user) on the talk page, the fact that I was not the only person to consider it so, the fact that this became a vendetta against me with no provocation using the article as a means for deliberately trying to upset me and drive me away. While I would have been within my rights to do so in my opinion, I even refrained from calling the user "a vandal", instead refering to the edit as vandalism - in accordance with WP:NPA, I remained civil and did my absolute best to comment on the statement, not the maker of it.

However, I most certainly appreciate your effort in looking at the issue, and ap

here we go again

Here we go again. This is the same user that was banned earlier today, with the same edit, using instead the IP that was originally responsible as given in the title of this incident. I'm not going thorough this again, and having learned from my previous mistake, though it is vandalism as far as I am concerned (especially with all that's happened), I am not going to touch it. Somebody else can deal with it when they get around to seeing it, and I will merely continue to report any personal attack made in WP:PAIN. Crimsone 21:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Ti mi- publicgirluk sock?

User:Ti mi has the same MO as publicgirluk and Courtney Akins. Some of her images have been moved to Commons, where there's been some concern over the legitimacy of them. I suggest a checkuser and probably a block like we did to the others. --Rory096 19:09, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Note: She, or whomever, uploaded the masturbation Image to Misplaced Pages Commons but it was deleted as too much of a risk. I suggest we do that here to until the Image has proven it's copyright status. The Images on Misplaced Pages are Image:Messeins.jpg and Image:Masturbation_techniques.jpg — The Future 19:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I've deleted them for now. If a decision is made that would include them feel free to reverse my action. JoshuaZ 20:53, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I support your actions. Admin actions are not set on stone or irreversably, erring on the side of caution is good. -- Drini 21:25, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Obviously, as one of the more "err on the side of caution" voices (not "conservative" voices) at Misplaced Pages: Images of identifiable persons (or whatever the exact name is), I fully support deleting until the images are proven licit. The stakes are too high, and the "people" doing the uploading too unknown. Geogre 01:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Having reviewed every edit of the three users in question, I find nothing whatsoever in common between Publicgirluk and Courtney Akins in MO, or between Ti mi and Courtney Akins. There are significant differences apparent also between Publicgirluk and Ti mi, not least because the latter, unlike the former, has uploaded a photo which has been processed to remove the facial details, thus preventing personal identfication; there are other differences which I am not making public to avoid impersonation of either user. Tyrenius 03:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I roughly concur with Tyrenius. However these pictures are problematic enough (indeed more problematic than the PGUK pics) and we need to discuss whether these pics are wanted. JoshuaZ 03:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

While you're right, the specifics are different, for example the lesser quality of these pictures, the concept of posting sexually explicit pictures at this particular time, when we just happen to have two others doing it is very suspicious. It could be the same person changing his methods slightly so people wouldn't think it's him, or it could be a copycat. --Rory096 04:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Talk:Asperger_syndrome#SandyGeorgia

I need an admin to look at this. Looks like mostly a personal attack against User:SandyGeorgia. That sort of discussion should be removed, but when it is, it gets reverted. --James Duggan 21:22, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know if my view on this is welcome here - if not it is easily removed - but to me that does seem to start off honestly/legitimately and develop into somewhat of a lengthy tirade against SandyGeorgia herself. There are certainly one or two reasonably clear personal attacks in there, and only an admin would be best placed to take a stance on those given the limited severity, but I'm particularly concerned that the articles talk page may not be the place to talk about a given editor of that article in such a way and almost as if he or she is not there. Crimsone 21:37, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have removed it. Joelito (talk) 21:50, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I have replaced the salient and unresolved points. There is nothing to be gained by brushing this issue under the carpet.

I do have the advantage of all of you in knowing exactly who User:SandyGeorgia is and have years of experience of what she is capable of in terms, not only of abusing Misplaced Pages for her own ends, but also damaging any editor with whom she associates.

Strangely I had arrived at exactly the same conclusions before I even guessed her identity...and was just as alarmed by her behaviors.

Here is a list of previous discussions:

• WP:AN/I initiated by Zeraeph
• WP:AN/I initiated by Zeraeph
• WP:Mediation Cabal initiated by Zeraeph
• WP:Mediation Cabal initiated by SandyGeorgia
• WP:Mediation Cabal initiated by Keyne
• Talk:Asperger_Syndrome the discussion referred to in above discussion initiated by Keyne 22:05, 5 September 2006 (UTC)
• ]--Zeraeph

Enough. Your stalking, allegations, and accusations of meatpuppetry, sockpuppetry, personal attacks, etc. at User:SandyGeorgia end here. This is your only warning. Either present evidence at the ArbCom or desist your apparent personal quest. Joelito (talk) 22:51, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Joelr31. All the above links show is a huge reluctance on your part to back up your accusations of skulduggery against SandyGeorgia with any evidence whatsoever. Cut out the personal attacks, and go through the dispute resolution process (but this time, engage with it properly - nobody is going to accept "it's too difficult for me to explain but I think she's horrible so you should too"). --ajn (talk) 22:56, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

There is no "reluctance" you only have to look at her actual behaviors with an open mind, particularly towards, for example User:SuperFlanker. Some very nasty, manipulative double standards being imposed there.

I have a life, I don't have 18 hours a day to track back every convoluted little strategy for ARBCOM (thus satisfying the rather sick needs of this individual who has stalked me for years with JUST that in mind). I will not enable her by silence either. I feel it is the responsibility of admins (that goes with the power) to actually OBSERVE a situation like this for themselves, with an open mind, not to try and brush it under the carpet.

What I will be doing is approaching the authorities in her locality with a view to getting her the help and restraint she needs. I have ample evidence against her real identity to ensure that. When that happens she will vanish. Problem solved. Though I doubt if anyone will bother to apologise to me for their error.

I also take serious issue with Joelito's threat here and on my talk page to "do something unspecified" unless I disregard my own conscience, as well as the facts and knowingly enable this person to continue their abuses. I have 8 years in which to form a very well rounded opinion of this individual based up reality, that, and not the threats of an admin, must dictate my choices. --Zeraeph 23:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Sorry if I did not make it clear that it was your only block warning for disruption, personal attacks, etc. Joelito (talk) 23:15, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Regardless of the circumstances (which aren't really anything I personally should get involved with), surely you can see that the talk page of an article is an inappropriate place for that kind of discussion at least? Crimsone 23:14, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't initiate the discussion...everybody forgets that... --Zeraeph 23:19, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Zeraeph has again brought her vendetta to the Asperger Talk and has linked the discussion to the Administrative NoticeBoard's discussion about her behavior. This is seemingly in violation of the precise directive, here and on her talk page. 152.163.100.65 00:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Here is a little evidence . An anonymous user on the same service User:SandyGeorgia admits to claiming that the discussion was initiated at least two weeks earlier than it was ( and . Enough subtle little distortions like this completely rewrite history or pretty much anything else. (Incidentally, by purely innocent coincidence 152.163.100.65 is ALSO an AOL web proxy server.) --Zeraeph 00:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am starting to get very angry here because it seems User:Joelr31 wants to demand evidence with one hand and delete it with the other . What kind of sense does that make? How fair is that? Let me stress that I have sent him hard evidence that the last editor in that discussion (bar myself) is ALSO an AOL user. I have yet to receive the courtesy orf a reply. WHAT is the point in producing evidence that only gets suppressed or ignored? --Zeraeph 02:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Joel is not just some user. He is an administrator - the final decision makers here at Misplaced Pages. He didn't tell you that you had no basis, and he explicitly told you how to pursue this through channels. It is scarcely "evidence" to tell someone that Sandy posts from home (AOL) as well as work (and on the road for work and vacation - hotel access) and therefore is to be found post with many many IP addresses since she stated all these things last Friday when you used Wiki to do some phishing on 3 different users. This is merely stalling tactics on your part.

In the meantime, you have again deleted an admin's warning from your Talk:Zeraeph page and you have reposted the repeatedly admin-deleted SandyGeorgia material to Talk:Asperger_syndrome You obviously have no respect whatsoever for authority or for Misplaced Pages, no less Joel.205.188.116.65 02:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yet ANOTHER AOL Web Proxy Server ...no disrespect to Joel but I'd like to meet some of his verzion fanclub before I die. Am I the only one who finds this a BIT much for coincidence? That not only does SandyGeorgia, but EVERY SINGLE anon poster on this subject, and AT LEAST one subscribed (evidence provided to Joel) should post from AOL? (Though NOT Joel's doing, I am certain of that much...I had no option but delete his warning as he incidentally identified the stalker I have no real option but refer to anonymously, against protocol...any time he cares to reword it to avoid that, it will stay.)--Zeraeph 02:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You have already posted all your suspicions and named your supposed stalker/stalkers last week in the last Cabal and in your CheckUser (both now closed) and earlier today on ASTalk. How can it suddenly be a big secret? 205.188.116.65 02:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

How do YOU suggest that so many random AOL users just happen to come across this dispute and feel compelled to comment on one side, and one side only?

AS for your question, while other edits get buried under the weight of editing, and no one sees then, unless they are determined to dig, in fact, any user who feels identified is entitled to request the deletion from history, my talk page is to remain and thus doesn't even identify you. --Zeraeph 02:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Erm, or you could have just followed protocol for editing articles and instead of removing it, you could have reworded part of it to take out the indentifying info if that's what you feel you must do. At least it would appear as cooperation. As said many ties, that disscussion does not belong on the articles talk page. It can be found via the diffs if you need to use it as evidence. ARBCOM is the place for that kind of discussion if it's truly nessecary, and it's up to you whether you wish to take it there or not - the fact is that it's where it belongs, not on the articles talk page. (personally, I'm a happy customer of plus.net - no bias here)Crimsone 02:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

To be honest I would rather leave him the freedom to do his own rewording as there really isn't an obvious way to take the ID out of the existing wording without considerable alteration of meaning, and, as an admin, he should really have had a BIT more sense than to identify the person I was referring to. Also, he restored MORE than his comment which, to me, was a bit iffy...

I genuinely feel that the previous discussion should not be removed without those who initiated it having some resolution, or failing that the discussion should be linked. I am not phoney, I can't fake co-operation I don't feel. So here is a link to the evidence of pretty obvious abuse you just chose to bury . I know this situation for so many years, just about the WORST thing you can do is try to brush it under the carpet.

Apart from which: "WE ARE AOL - YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED"! ;o) --Zeraeph 03:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

A fellow Star Trek Fan I see :D. You do understand of course(?) that should you need to, you can infact link to an old revision of a page - as long as nobody edits the article from that page. It's best to just post a link to the last diff, because it will list the full page below the highlighted differences anyway. :) (well, you can post it where needed except to delibeerately draw attention on the articles talk of course)Crimsone 03:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

OH I know THAT...but my point is more that when the editors who raised the issue return it would be nicer for them if it hadn't just been dismissed, as though they, and their point of view didn't matter. I reaqlise that a lot of the time, when people raise the same issues on Misplaced Pages it's a little bit stage managed, but not in this instance. I do not even know the editors who raised it, and I don't agree with all the changes they wished to make, but what I DO support is their right to make them without permission of User:SandyGeorgia,and their right to query a situation where that is not the case.

All of which happened long before I had the first CLUE who User:SandyGeorgia really was or just how bad it could get. --Zeraeph 03:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

And now we have an anon editor reverting and rewording on behalf of User:Joelr31 . I cannot imagine any way in which it is appropriate for an anon editor to reword anybody's comments on anybody's talk page. (see WP:TPG). AS a matter of fact there is absolutely no reason why I should not delete other remarks, or even this remark from my user talk Help:Talk page, but I am happy to leave the warning WHEN it has been reworded by the original author and no-one else. --Zeraeph 04:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

PS And the above edit was AOL AGAIN . I cannot believe that nobody will acknowledge this blatant sockpuppetry. --Zeraeph 05:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My Suggested Solution

As long as User:SandyGeorgia is aware that she is being observed she will probably do no harm to Misplaced Pages (which is surely the point?). I suggest that a previously uninvolved totally impartial, Admin observe her. I am quite happy to be similarly observed.

I have the right to explain on my talk page why I will always be abrupt and standoffish now (I will be, nothing I can do about that) so that innocent editors never suspect it is "something they have done". I have not even specified GENDER let alone identified anyone. --Zeraeph 23:41, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

Zeraeph blocked

See User talk:Zeraeph. --ajn (talk) 06:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Endorsed There is also a bordeline-abusive checkuser request in the mix, Misplaced Pages:Requests for checkuser/Case/A Kiwi. Put up or shut up indeed. Thatcher131 (talk) 12:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Belated response from SG. As I announced in several places on Wiki many days ago, I am away from home and have limited internet access. It is interesting that yet another campaign against me has been launched in my relative absence.

I am very active at WP:FAR and WP:FAC; this campaign against me has continued for almost two months, since I happened to cross paths with Zeraeph on the Asperger syndrome FARC. She has now smeared my name on three ANIs, three mediations (in which she refuses to participate), and across multiple talk pages, but has yet to present a single example of the "abuse" she alleges. She has now moved on to claiming I'm someone I'm not, although I have had no interaction with the articles she edits since shortly after the AS FARC.

While I appreciate any and all attempts to help stop the unfounded smear, innuendo, and ongoing personal attacks against me, three refusals to mediate and a CheckUser which exonerated me have convinced me that no amount of reason is going to convince Zeraeph that I am not who she thinks I am.

After the CheckUser showed her wrong, she made the unfounded and libelous attack on me: "User:SandyGeorgia is actually an erotomanic stalker who attached herself to both myself and one other person since February 1999. If I had realised THAT I would never have requested a 'checkuser', because it was a waste of time, she's just too practised at sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry to get caught that easily." She has also removed past warnings about this behavior from her talk page.

I hold little hope that mediation or ArbCom will have any effect on this escalating pattern of attack, as it appears that no amount of reason or evidence will effect Zeraeph's imagination. I hope that admins will enforce that she stop accusing me of being someone I'm not, and attacking me across many article pages, and I respectfully wish that the many AOL users who have followed her from an off-Wiki dispute to Misplaced Pages would 1) stop e-mailing me about the problem (I'm not interested in the drama), and 2) stop bringing that dispute to Wiki: Wiki admins are able to deal with this. Since there has yet to be a shred of evidence to back up a single claim made by Zeraeph, I believe the wisest course of action for me is to ignore the rants. Regards, Sandy 17:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

See my talk page, also. One thing is absolutely clear - the next time Zeraeph makes any allegation of this sort, however veiled, outside a case put to the arbitration committee, she (I'm assuming you have certain knowledge of Zeraeph's gender) will be blocked for considerably longer than a week. Possibly permanently, unless another admin is willing to come to her defence. --ajn (talk) 17:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Zeraeph is now blocked for a month, her talk page is locked to prevent her repeating these allegations, and I've asked on WP:AN if there are any objections to a community ban. --ajn (talk) 10:40, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

protected page move by admin without consensus

I wasn't sure where to post this, but I don't think it fits requested moves, since it's a violation of that process. EL C took it upon him self to move 2006 Israel-Lebanon Conflict to 2006 Israel-Lebanon War, without any consensus for the move. Others were already deciding where to move the page, in accordance with requested move proceedure - at the time of the move, users were roughly evenly split (6:5) on the issue. After questioning him on his and the main talk page, El C explained that the reason he moved it was because he'd held a discussion (in fairness, he did) in which he had a consensus (sort of). However, he completely ignored the poll running directly above where he held his discussion. His dislike of democracy and polls is irrelevant to the move - the process was already underway, and ignoring the discussion of other wikipedians, he went ahead and moved the page. I'm aware this is similar to a content dispute, but I'm not asking because I think conflict is a better name, but because he didn't move it with the consensus of the discussion. Since the page is protected from moves, I'd appreciate it if an admin could move the page back to where it was until the process is complete. Thank you. Iorek85 23:31, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with lore here. There is a 50/50 split in the current RM discussion on the talk page. There is no consensus for a move and none should have been done at this time. The move should be reversed as soon as possible and any move held off until a consensus develops. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:42, 5 September 2006 (UTC)

I object to the wheel warring on the part of User:Arthur Rubin. El_C 02:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The cloest we have to an agreed upon position for wheel waring is that you repeatly undo another admins actions. That was not the case. the results of various arbcom cases suggest that you are allowed to wheel war as long as you are right.Geni 11:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the definition at Misplaced Pages:Wheel warring suggests that one revert of an admin action can be considered such. However, it's clear there was no consensus for the move, so I reverted it, anyway. If User:El C wants to bring an RfAr, so be it, but I think he's violating the mediation agreement. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 13:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

AR did not bother discussing the matter with me before he wheel warred. I am unaware of any mediation agreement, which he keeps telling me I am bound to. Perhaps this is something he should have explained before he wheel warred. El_C 14:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The definition of "wheel warring" has changed since the last time I had read it. It appears that using Admin tools to revert any Admin action is considered "wheel warring". Under that definition, though User:El C was wheel warring in moving the article when it was moved-blocked (reverting "that" Admin action). I think it may be better to leave the article where it was while we disucss who may have made a mistake. And I was wrong about the mediation and whether he was under any specific restrictions; still, I can't recall why User:El C was on my watch list; he must have done something I considered questionable. But let's keep the discussion here, instead of on multiple talk pages, so those not interested can go back to editing. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 15:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I wish people didn't use the term wheel waring so lightly. It makes it harder to describe the rea thing.Geni 15:10, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

And I wish Geni would place more care into his one-line responses. El_C 16:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a farce. AR feels I've must have done something questionable at some point (any basis for that? He thought I was involved in the Israeli Apartheid move-war, for example. Wrong), so he move reverts me without notice. Just a few days ago, I was offered a barnstar for my contributions to the 2006 I-L series of articles, which had been extensive. But I suppose none of that matters, since to AR, I'm a priori acting questionably, so he opts for brute force, and the discussion I painstakingly facilitated (which was productive) be damned. El_C 15:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Aside from the matter at hand, I would note that saying "the results of various arbcom cases suggest that you are allowed to wheel war as long as you are right" is a very substantial misinterpretaion of reality. Wheel warring is never acceptable. Ever. Dmcdevit·t 17:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

True, however in this case I don't believe any wheel warring has occured. El_C acted inappropriately moving a page to his preferred name when no consensus had yet been achieved. This was simply reverted as it should have been so that a consensus could develop. El_C's continued claim that there was a consensus non-withstanding he should not be the one to move this page when and if the time comes because he's an involved party with a very clearly defined bias. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thankfuly, I've never wheel warred, ever. However long JBG keeps repeating these falsehoods, will not make them so. He was not part of the original discussion, which was held for 10-days, and in it, consensus was reached before the move. That I have view ("clearly defined bias" - facsinating), is not pertinent to anything. JBG's conduct in this incident was particularly questionable. El_C 20:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't say you wheel warred. I said your move was in appropriate at that time. Your denying it doesn't change that. You had a 6 people (including yourself) siding with your view and 5 people taking the other view in their points in the discussion. That is clearly not consensus, yet you moved anyway. These FACTS are not in dispute and your continued denial of them is laughable. I would also like you to qualify your statement that my conduct has been "questionable"? How so? Or are you just resorting to personal attacks to try and deflect attention away from your out of process move? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Your provocations and distortions of the timeline are questionable. Please stop seeking drama. Thanks in advance. El_C 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I would point out that I'm not the only one who seems to think you acted inappropriately here. Are we all "distorting" the timeline? Also no one is seeking drama. You made a mistake, several users have now pointed this out. Admit it and move on. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Even if I made a mistake, I have been mistreated by yourself and AR. El_C 21:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Mistreated? How? All myself and Lore did was point out we thought you'd acted inappropriately here, and all he did was revert you? That doesn't qualify as mistreatment :| JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You have not taken the time to closely review my position on this situation, whereas AR has expressed vague misgivings that he could not substantiate. El_C 22:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

rallying hate against user

User:ShortJason was indef blocked by Tony due he spamming talk pages trolling and trying to rally a group whose only and explict purpose would be to "remove Drini" (sic). See his user page and the spamming on talk pages:

Just in case someone wants to review it. I wonder why wasn't he blocked before, given that several admins got his message. So far, at least another user has expressed openly support for such "cruzade": User:ARbiteroftruth -- Drini 00:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Checkuser showed he being sockpuppet of Don Brooks , Forever Old , ShortJason , ShootJar , Orange Fever , Orange Rocks , Orange Forever , Orange Rules , Garfunkel4life , John Serge, some of them admitted sockpuppets of TJWhite (see that userpage for more sockpuppets). Gee.. I see now why so much support for CVU .. all clones :P -- Drini 01:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Is there any evidence suggesting an actual involvement of any of these editors in CVU? Or were they just trolls jumping at a chance to mob an administrator? --Tony Sidaway 02:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No, they just showed up to comment on the DVU deletion debate. pschemp | talk 02:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

JimRaynor55

Over the last two months, JimRaynor55 has decided to certain material from the Star Wars canon article, persistently disregarding what appears to be a consensus for the information to remain from the more experienced and contributing editors. Nearly all of his activity since June has been either trying to remove a link that appears to be a valid, well-reasoned take on the subject, or exhibiting a consistent pattern of abusve rhetoric and personal attacks on others who disagree with him or his conclusions. Other editors have presented their arguments for inclusion, which Raynor either dismisses out of hand or ignores, and continues to delete information from the article. He will not accept reason or compromise, and has stated so publicly in his comments and edit summaries. In short, he refuses to work with others unless he gets his own way, and I'd like to see what measures can be taken to limit his edits to this article until he learns to work with others. TheRealFennShysa 00:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Server Down?

Was it just me, or did anyone else have a problem acessing Misplaced Pages, for the last few minuets. Old TI-89 (u|t|c) 01:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

There have been intermittant outages all day. It seems to be a common occurance at the moment, but no doubt the technicians are working hard at the issues behind the scenes. :) Crimsone 01:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Phentermine linkspammer 212.180.156.148

212.180.156.148 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · filter log · WHOIS · RDNS · RBLs · http · block user · block log) appears to have added around 15 external phentermine spam-links to articles. Could an admin roll these back these please? - David Oberst 01:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Already done, and the IP has been blocked for 24 hours. --PeruvianLlama 01:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Cute 1 4 U is evading indef block

Hello this user has clamed to be this 11 year old blocked user. Christy06 posted on addmisson on Leroyencyclopediabrown's talk page. Cute 1 4 U has a history of sock abuse. Æon _EA! 01:58, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The user has admitted to being a sockpuppet of Cute 1 4 U . Cowman109 02:01, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't care if i'm blocked. --Christy06 02:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Good, cause you are. pschemp | talk 02:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for the quick turn around. Æon _EA! 02:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on this, I have reopened a checkuser case on Cute 1 4 u to discern any other accounts she may have created as well as block her IP from creating any new accounts. Ryūlóng 03:52, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Previously banned user User 24.94.120.140

This anon user was previously banned (according to his own addmission here. he is back, and today recieved two warnings on his talk page, one for 3RR, another for personal attacks. He keeps removing these warnings, thoiugh he has been warned not to. Probably a good idea to block this IP for a while. Isarig 02:02, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, You could have reported this on Misplaced Pages:administrator intervention against vandalism on vandalism, and WP:3RR would be good for reporting edit war. Daniel's page ☎ 02:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

But he has not violated 3RR, and what I'm complaining of is his removal of warnings from his Talk page, and his persoanl attacks. Isarig 02:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

May be, You could make request for semiprotection on his talk page for removing all warnings. That's best option. Daniel's page ☎ 02:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Chifumbe (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)

3RR violations, personal attacks, removes warnings and block notices from talk page, posted threats, assorted racially motivated vandalism, ignored several vandalism warnings, added a comment in AFD pretending to be another user -- Spring3100 04:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The 3rr violations seem to be from about 3 weeks ago, when the user was very new, can you put in some diffs? The edits I see look fine, from a somewhat liberal but reasonable and well explained POV, the user uses a different name in their signature every time they sign, which is not against any policy, they're clearly not impersonating anyone. It looks like User:Spring3100 may possibly be the same as User:Giuliani Time, with whom Chifumbe seems to have had conflict before. Again, unless some good diffs can be offered, I don't think any action should be taken. Mak (talk) 04:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• User also has a serious WP:NPOV problem. Spring3100 04:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Xbox 360#Hardware

There is an ongoing content dispute regarding whether or not a laundry list of detailed hardware specifications should remain or be replaced by a concise and abriged summary. The consensus seems to be very much for this latter option, but there are two editors who insist that abridging is "information removal", "harms the article", and is "vandalism". Numerous attempts have been made to reason with the users, get them to engage in discussion on the talk page, suggest alternative solutions, etc. In general the response has merely been edit warring. They will revert to the laundry list version no matter how much work other editors do to try and comply with what consensus already has decided. Most of the relevant discussion can be found here: . A few examples of the blanket reverts: , , , , . Some very telling statements made by the two dissenting editors: (edit comment), (edit comment), (edit content)

I'm getting sick of beating this issue to death and getting absolutely nowhere. Some uninvolved administrator guidance would be much appreciated. -- mattb @ 2006-09-06 06:22Z

I'm not an administrator, but perhaps a solution to the dispute may be to put the full specs on a sub-page of the article, and leave the abriged version of the specs in the article itself with a wikilink to the full specs (or perhaps a show/hide option in the article) Crimsone 06:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually, subpages in article space are not allowed per WP:SP. A separate Xbox 360 hardware article would be more likely, but I doubt even that is necessary. --Nscheffey 06:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

That was suggested, and I'm not against revisiting it, but frankly I don't see much point in creating an article that reproduces a press release that we already link in the article proper. Anyway, I don't need help with negotiation right now, I need help with users that don't seem to regard the conflict resolution process at all. -- mattb @ 2006-09-06 06:35Z

I wouldn't normally suggest it, but while WP:SP is a worthy guideline, it does specifically state that common sense can be used and some exceptions are permissable. No doubt an admin will have a view on this - I merely suggested it as a means to resolve the dispute. There is of course always the hide/show method.

As I say, it was only a suggestion, and I'm sorry if it is of little assistance to you. Crimsone 06:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh, please don't read me wrong. I appreciate whatever suggestions anybody offers; I'd just like a little bit of help with the user difficulties as well. -- mattb @ 2006-09-06 12:50Z

On a related note, take a more careful look at WP:SP: apparently, the creation of subpages has been disabled in mainspace anyway. While this might qualify as one of those common-sense exceptions, the portion about not-creating mainspace subpages is more akin to policy-by-fiat than a guideline. Captainktainer * Talk 22:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You are, of course correct. Clearly it's something I missed, and I now know for the future - thankyou very much. Oh well, I tried. lol :) Crimsone 22:36, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please keep an eye on Israelbeach

Community banned user Israelbeach has reactivated one of his dormant sockpuppets, User:Givati, and attacked me in his edit summary: . Please keep an eye on him for me. Despite the support of at least one administrator, I myself will not block this user, on principle. As long as all he does is add a sentence here or there to Israeli current events articles, I'm okay with him editing. But knowing him, I am afraid he is likely to go back to linkspamming for the Israeli News Agency (his personal website), posting my personal information or otherwise attacking Wikipedians such as myself and Danny. I don't feel that should be tolerated here. --woggly 06:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

And another dormant sock reactivated: User:Jerusalemrose. --woggly 11:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Bonnieisrael is posting again on her talk page. Take her statement with a grain of salt, she mis-states who blocked her, and she mis-states the reason for her block (she is blocked for contentious editing, not sockpuppetry). NoSeptember 17:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Bobatron's sockpuppet

Hi, A new user with a somewhat unfriendly username has been created. I don't want to overreact, but on balance, I suspect it's worth an instant block. Regards, Ben Aveling 07:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Blocked indef. Blurg and Blurg blurg da blurg blurg were that user's only contribs. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 07:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Thanks. Ben Aveling 07:39, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

WP:USERNAME prescribes immediate blocks for usernames that contain Misplaced Pages concepts/jargon, and names that give the impression that the user is here to cause trouble. This is both. Grandmasterka 08:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:The real Barbara Schwarz Request block on sockpuppet and soft block on dynamic AOL IP

Ms. Schwarz is a banned user of Misplaced Pages (see User:The real Barbara Schwarz).

JohnPower (talk · contribs · count) has suddenly appeared on the Talk:Barbara Schwarz pages, and is making threats and personal attacks. The IP address 172.190.37.157 is associated with edits on this page signed by this user, and this is an AOL proxy IP address. Barbara Schwarz has posted to the Usenet using an AOL account before.

I request a block on the new sockpuppet and a soft block on the dynamic AOL IP. 09:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

AFC

AFC appears to be screwed. Not sure why. --82.35.102.213 09:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I dunno, they've been doing better in the last decade. When I was growing up, the NFC was pretty much the kings. The Redskins, the Giants, especially the Cowboys... but ever since the Falcons lost to the Broncos, the AFC has had almost equal footing.

Wait, what are we talking about? Oh, WP:AFC. Why didn't you say so? Lemme clean this up. --Golbez 09:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've fixed it. Someone had errm 'HACKED' it. -- zzuuzz 09:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

So where's the disruption?

So, User:Doc_glasgow decides to close a DRV early, citing WP:SNOW . As I'm told, it's allegedly an extension of WP:IAR, and "easily reversable." So what do I do? I reverse it, and then get blocked for disruption. Then his partner in snowball crime, User:Tony Sidaway, ends up being the reviewing admin, which just reeks of cabalism (oh, wait, no cabal, right?). Complete absurdity abound, here, and I'm getting awfully sick of these renegade maneuvers to make an end-around on policy to get the desired result. At worst, I was well within my right to "ignore all rules" and improve the encyclopedia by allowing an admitedly controversial deleiton challenge (by a completely uninvolved party, from the looks of things) to stand. At best, I reversed an obviously divisive and disruptive close, allowing it to get a full hearing. At what point is this lunacy going to end, exactly? When editors start being blocked for doing the right thing, there's a major problem. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Well, it was already upheld by DRV back in July, so I fail to what it was doing there again. Beyond that, there was an overwhelming majority in favor of speedy closing; largely on those grounds. Doc's actions make sense; yours don't. Ignoring all rules means doing what's best for the encyclopedia. In this case, that probably wasn't dragging out drama for no good purpose when the community--yes, the community--had already made up its mind. Regrettably, various rogue sysops treat militant lack of common sense as disruption. Mackensen (talk) 12:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Whether it was upheld in July has little to do with it now, especially considering the person who brought it up was completely uninvolved. Secondly, there wasn't an overwhelming majority, it's impossible to come up with one in less than 24 hours. Third, ignoring all rules means doing what's best for the encyclopedia - that's what I did. The problem is, indeed, rogue sysops. The problem is the inability to see common sense when it's right in front of people. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • However, no fresh reasons were introduced. You can't review a deletion review. The community has spoken; the article isn't wanted. IAR isn't a license to disruption; indeed, you cited it, not them. WP:SNOW is a recognized method for closing discussions where the outcome is a foregone conclusion. Given the drama attendant any Encyclopedia Dramatica activity, there are good reasons for closing it early. You've yet to explain how your actions benefit the encyclopedia. You aren't allowed to repeatedly reopen something just because you're uninvolved. Go try to AfD Gay Nigger Association of America again. You're uninvolved, after all. Don't blame me when you get reverted and probably blocked, though. Mackensen (talk) 12:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
      • I don't know if that's true, and of course you can review a deleiton review. WP:SNOW isn't recognized by a whole ton of people, either, it's mostly cited by people who have little interest in actually paying attention to the necessary processes. Also, so much for snowball/IAR actions being "easily reversable" - doing so simply gets you blocked. Meanwhile, how did my actions benefit the encyclopedia? It was designed to allow a full hearing for someone completely uninvolved wiht the prior discussion to present his/her case, and maybe see it with a clear hear. Doc's disruptive close ruined that, but he'll never be held accountable for it. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Um, Mackensen, I have to ask you a question. You say "Regrettably, various rogue sysops treat militant lack of common sense as disruption."... How exactly is this "regrettable"? Seems a good thing to me, so I am afraid I'm not following your logic there. Oh, and endorse the speedy close, we don't need to re DRV the same thing over and over again. Jeff, give the process wonking a rest. ++Lar: t/c 13:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • • Just to interpolate, are you failing to get Mackensen's irony or is this your deadpan way of continuing it? It can be hard to tell without facial expressions and such. :) Metamagician3000 14:09, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Can't do that. Wrong actions must be corrected. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
      • Yes, but sometimes you have to pick your fights in order to be effective. You shouldn't have been blocked and your opinion that the DRV should have been allowed to run its course is perfectly valid. But you're unlikely to get anywhere with this at the moment. Haukur 14:06, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
• Knock it off jeff (or are you not capable of letting things rest?) Encyclopedia Dramatica had been afd'd - the decision had had a full deletion review and had been endorsed - someone relisted it - and it was being snowballed (badlydrawnjeff and one other supported it - 8 endosed 5 calling for speedy closure). How many bites at the cherry is an issue allowed? I closed it, because the result was obvious (WP:SNOW), and the relisting was straining the community's patience. I have no interest whatsoever in the article, however the debate was reoppened by jeff who was a participant in it, and is, I believe, connected with Encyclopedia Dramatica. I viewed that as POV-pushing campaigning, conflict of interests, tendentious manipulation of process, disrespectful of establish consensus, and downright disruptive. And this process wonking is getting really tiresom.--Doc 12:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • God forbid I question your actions! I'm no longer connected with the site, so you don't need to worry about that. If you don't want to be challenged, stop doing disruptive things, and stop handing out unjustified blocks. My reversal was absolutely warranted, legitimate, and I believe necessary. If you don't want to be challenged on your actions, stop doing things that will get you challenged on them. --badlydrawnjeff talk 12:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • The issue isn't that you're challenging Doc's actions. It's that you're challenging actions that were unquestionably correct, and doing so in a repetetive and tendentious manner. Jeff, I think you're a smart guy, so when you keep engaging not in process wonking, but in doomed process wonking about subjects that you know or should know have no hope of convincing even a significant minority of the community, then I have to start asking myself: "Hey. Why is he doing this?" Nandesuka 12:30, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
      • No, the issue is that I'm challenging Doc's actions. That's the entire issue, full stop. You disagree with me, that's fine. But I don't think it's doomed. Wrong actions must be combated. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Did it ever occur to you that the number of people dropping by your page and politely suggesting that you might be out of your mind when you claim WP:IAR and WP:SNOW aren't properly used and aren't consensus not mean anything to you? You make claims that people are out of process, while somehow, at the same time asserting that WP:IAR, while policy, doesn't count as process? This was certainly not the first time you reversed an action simply because someone was "out of process" in your estimation. We get the WP:POINT, can we get back to working on the encylopedia now? Shell 12:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
      • It means nothing, mainly because it's the same people over and over. Can we get back to working the encyclopedia? Why, yhes, let's do so - that's what I'm attempting to do by reversing Doc's disruption. IAR only recently re-became instituted policy, and I hope it changes back because of asinine situations like this - both of us think we're improving the encycopedia, one of us gets blocked. Kind of bizarre, don't you think? Quite simply, if people don't want to be challenged, quit doing stupid things. --badlydrawnjeff talk 13:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I see I've failed to elucidate; allow me to try again. The issue is that the matter was closed. It was closed back in July. To bring it forward again threatens to rekindle all the old bad blood. This should only be done if there's a valid, pressing reason for arguing that the original combination AfD/DRV was no longer valid. This would take the form of ED doing something notable enough for a new article to be written. This has not happened. Users can reopen old issues all they want; this is a wiki, after all; but they shouldn't be surprised if administrators decide enough is enough, which is what happened here. You're talking as though this is some kind of judiciary proceeding, which it was not. Indeed, the article hasn't been discussed at all, probably because there's nothing at all to be said about it. The encyclopedia is composed of articles, not editors–they merely edit the articles. The distinction is an important one often lost here. Any action is easily reversible, but that's not a license to revert. Whether you recognize WP:SNOW or not is irrelevant to our purpose here; it isn't policy–it's shorthand. That is to say, to invoke WP:SNOW is to say, simply: "I'm doing this because I believe the will of the community and needs of the encyclopedia are so absolutely manifest that no good purpose would be served by drawing the matter out." You obviously recognize this idea, you just tried to apply it, if in error. Mackensen (talk) 12:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Which there is a valid, pressing reason. Your disagreement with it is no reason to endorse such disruption by Doc. As for my application of IAR, I said "at worst." I would never invoke such a divisive policy to force what I want against the best result for the encyclopedia.--badlydrawnjeff talk 13:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Give it up, mate. This was flogging a dead horse and Doc was quite right to close it. You are continuing to waste your energy assaulting the same dearly departed equine, and I'm not surprised that someone blocked you for it. I'm sure you mean well, but this is not the fight you want to pick. Metamagician3000 14:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • No, it is, and he was wrong. Maybe someday Doc will be held accountable. Judging by the response, I won't hold my breath. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • Badlydrawnjeff, your persistent harping on this has become disruptive. Please stop now. Tom Harrison 14:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
    • Discussion is never disruptive. The only disruptive thing I've seen this morning is the early close of the DRV and the blind support of Doc's disruptive actions. No one's keeping you from whatever you're being distracted from, my concerns are entirely valid and I don't appreciate further attempts on my being silenced. Thanks. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not going to waste much more time on this or I'll end up getting cranky and uncivil. But what part don't you get? This deletion had already been through DRV. It had no business being there at all, could only have been there out of ignorance or to cause disruption (I'll assume the former), and was fair game for any admin to close on sight. This seems just so obvious to me that I can't believe you're understanding the situation. I'm really trying to assume good faith here ... Metamagician3000 14:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Please do assume good faith, I have the best interests at heart here. There's nothing stopping a DRV from occurring more than once, it happens plenty. Considering how heated the last situation was, perhaps waiting 6 weeks and rerunning it to get an actual consensus dealing with how poorly the AfD was running was the right move - I think so. Doc decided no, and now the situation has effectively escalated again. Too soon? Perhaps, but that wasn't for Doc to decide, and his disruptive closes and blocks don't help. --badlydrawnjeff talk 14:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
  • If that has ever happened in anything like these circumstances, it shouldn't have. DRV isn't something to be re-run until you get the "right" answer. There has to be an end to wiki-litigation, and DRV normally provides it. If you look at the circumstances here, far from being special (in the sense of favouring another bite of the cherry) they show that the attempt at a second DRV on the very same closure was being roundly rejected. Again, you and I seem to be living on different planets because it's just screamingly obvious to me that Doc did the right thing here and that any admin should have done the same - on first sight, in my view, but certainly in the circumstances Doc was actually presented with. If you still don't get it, I don't see what more I can say to make it clear. Anyway, that's enough for tonight. It's 1 a.m. and I'm going to bed. :) Metamagician3000 15:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am reading this and I fail to see the blockable offense. I see:

1. Jeff is wrong on the issue (although not on his objection to WP:SNOW), which is his prerogative, as long as he in good faith believes that his position is right.
2. Jeff is beating a dead horse, which is tiresome but not a blocking offense.
3. Jeff is alone in holding his opinion. THIS IS ABSOLUTELY NOT A BLOCKING OFFENSE.
4. The thrust I see for this being considered disruptive is that he continues arguing instead of building an encyclopedia. This is bull, because it always takes two sides to argue, and I see lots of people willing to take the other side. Don't, and the argument will go away.

The remedy for tireless rebutters is to ignore them or to ask them to initiate formal dispute resolution mechanisms. But leave the block button for editors who actually violate our conduct policies. Thank you. ~ trialsanderrors 18:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Well, I wish you had seen this three hours ago when I was blocked a second time for holding a contrary opinion. Regardless, if people have an issue with my tactics, let's get an RfC or RfAr going and end it once and for all, I'm sick of being rebuffed because people don't want to pay attention to basic processes and would rather silence me as if it's going to solve the problem. --badlydrawnjeff talk 18:21, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Since it doesn't seem like Jeff is going to stop anytime soon, and it takes two to argue, and because we apparently just can't block Jeff outright (or so I'm told), the best solution is to just start ignoring him. I pledge to use this solution with Jeff from now on. Who else is with me? --Cyde Weys 18:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You just don't like that I challenge you on your constant unilateral out of process actions. Ignore away, please. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

We could block him, if people would quit wheel warring on the block. Jeff is here to disrupt, it seems to be his sole modus operandi. I'd be happy with ignoring him, if he didn't vote keep on every single AfD. User:Zoe|(talk) 19:03, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Really? That's pretty harsh, I do plenty here that wouldn't even come close to being considered disruption. If you need to ignore me, feel free, we'll all be better off, but if you think that's all I'm here for, please open an RfC and let's get to the point instead of the constant attacks from you. --badlydrawnjeff talk 20:07, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Arvatov

Can someone please block this guy for good? He does nothing but vandalism whenever he gets unblocked. Duja 12:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree. Absolutelly all edits of this user are vandalism. He definitelly should be blocked. PANONIAN (talk) 13:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Pjbruce wants to sue for libel.

Someone said the article he created read like copyvio. Now he claims it's his own work and wants blood for the libelous remark.

at this dif and here. I have suggested that he read WP:LEGAL.

Please let me know if there is a better place to this. Cheers, :) Dlohcierekim 13:45, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• From the difs you provided, I can't see Pjbruce actually saying that he was going to sue anyone for libel. He just seems to find certain comments about copyvio offencive, and is angry. Giving him WP:LEGAL was 100% the right thing to do, maybe it will help him cool off a bit and realise that no one was trying to do anything libelous. If he does make legal threats in the future, that would be handled by Office, as all legal threats are, but right now, he just seems like a newbie angry that his article is being deleted. Thε Halo 14:42, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• • He actually added some more while I was writing. Again, he doesn't seem to be actually making legal threats, but I think a word on his talkpage might help, which I am just about to go and do. An admin might also want to look into this. Thε Halo 14:47, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
• Yes, I thought this was where I posted stuff for an admin to look at. At any rate, his last message on my page indicated he is appealing to Mr. Wales. :) Dlohcierekim 20:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Tbkflav's attack on me

After I had removed one non-free image from User:Tbkflav's page, explaining in the edit summary I was doing so to comply to item #9 in WP:FUC, this user left a lengthy message on my talk page expressing his feelings on my behaviour in the incident (no problem so far) and then updated his user's page adding some sections dedicated to attack me (now, a problem). --Abu Badali 16:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've given the user a warning about personal attacks, and asked them to remove the section. Shadow1 17:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Deletion of User:Cool Cat/Ex-CVU

I do not believe User:Doc glasgow's deletion is inline with any speedy deletion criteria we have. I see this as a case of admin error and am requesting intervetion. --Cat out 17:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You are welcome to take this to DRV, but actually User:Tony Sidaway deleted your recreation of this attack page.--Doc 18:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Still admin error. I have no idea what DRV is. --Cat out 18:04, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Isn't Doc glasgow deadminned?  Grue  17:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I checked the logs and he got it back on August 8,2006 without any apparent RfA. It is even more interesting than Carnildo case.  Grue  17:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am only intersted in restoring the deleted page. I have no intention of turning this into a "de-admin" campaign. --Cat out 18:12, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This looks like some CVU political thing. Silly, in my opinion, but that's not grounds for deletion. It was deleted for personal attacks, but I don't see where there are personal attacks. We absolutely have to stop this childlike habit of equating criticism with personal attacks. Friday (talk) 18:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Reading it, it's somewhat offensive but not really a personal attack. On the other hand, I'm having a hard time figuring out what use it is. One does get tired of petty wiki-politics. Regarding Doc glasgow, he voluntarily gave up his adminship (as I recall), and therefore was permitted to ask for it back. Mackensen (talk) 18:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Possible harm in keeping it: Stirring up more useless drama between Essjay (talk · contribs) and Cool Cat (talk · contribs).

Possible harm in deleting it: Making CC unhappy.

Since I think both cases leave CC annoyed, let's favor not starting even more lame CVU drama. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Now we've got "this was deleted for no reason" drama instead. Following the principal of least drama, the right answer is to leave it alone until there's a reason to do otherwise. Trumped up excuses for deletion cause drama all by themselves. Friday (talk) 18:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's drama on WP:ANI, which is a black hole sucking in all drama into a point with infinite drama and zero volume. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 18:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

The "principal of least drama" is what led to WWII, by the way. If you keep letting people do what they want because stopping them would cause a little bit of trouble, eventually it grows to become such a large problem that when you must deal with it, it becomes a huge amount of trouble. Do you honestly think that this userbox was okay? If not, don't fight against its justifiable deletion. If we start letting things like this survive we're going to be slipping backwards again in the whole userbox mess and eventually we'll be back to the "This user is a pedophile" ones again. --Cyde Weys 18:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Of course I think it's OK. Ironic that you'd mention slipping backward in the userbox mess tho- this one was in user space, where it belongs, and it was deleted anyway. Who's slipping backwards, here? Friday (talk) 18:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe Cyde was alluding to the brief proliferation of "attack" userboxes–we don't want to start that again. Disputes ought to stay off-wiki. Mackensen (talk) 18:53, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am uninterested in the "drama". And this has nothing to do with pedophiles. The userbox does not in any way imply political affilation/beliefs to anything. It merely suggests I dislike one action taken against me by an unspesified user. The implications of that action is present.

An interesting coincidence is that this comes at the same time of the afd of Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit, the Misplaced Pages:Counter-Vandalism Unit logo contravercy in commons, deletion of various pages tagged with {{attackuser-m}}, practicaly the fanatical rise of WP:DENY (both Doc and Tony seem to be supporting it).

--Cat out 20:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Firstly assume good faith. I'd have deleted that userbox any day and from any user. It has nothing to do with DENY or CVU - so cut the paranoid victim bit. Secondly, don't wikilawyer. It didn't concern an 'unspecified user' - the user may not have been named, but he was specified - you identified the subject as the one who 'took CVU from you'. Basically, if you want to criticise Essjay that's fine by me, I've no idea what your dispute is about and no interest in taking sides. But community is built either by discussion or dispute mechanisms to settle differences, not be carrying on polemics by userbox. Either stay away from your Essjay issues, or try to resolve them though constructive means. This is disruptive and frankly makes you look ridiculous. Drop it. --Doc 20:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC).

I am assuuming good faith. Thats why I stated all that to be mere coincidences. Coincidences happen every day! Though, I don't trust coincidences.

I have been denied all forms of dispute resolution. Its beyond the juristictions of Arbcom and the user said that he didn't care about any kind of mediation. So, since I do not have any of the dispute mechanisms at my disposal, I want to be able to at least complain about it on my own on my userspace.

If you want me to drop it, please undelete the page.

--Cat out 21:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I deleted because it was a clear attempt by Cool Cat to needle Essjay and stir up his sometime feud. As his most active mentor I do sometimes take action that I think is in Cool Cat's greater interests. --Tony Sidaway 19:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Needle essjay? His name wasnt even mentioned. Your average stranger would not even know who or what was this about had you not mentioned his username. The userbox is simply a "this user is annoyed because of this". Furthermore, the userbox is NOT even directly visible on my userpage (you'd have to go through a hide/show thing).

Oh, and please do not worry about my "greater interests" anymore, I had enough of that.

--Cat out 20:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In this case, the concern is not about what the 'average stranger' would see, feel, or understand about the userbox in question. Rather, it is about what the dozens (perhaps hundreds) of admins and other editors familiar with the involved parties would see. Moreover, Essjay would certainly have recognized who you were referring to. If you feel that you have an unresolved dispute with Essjay, deal with it through formal channels or write the matter off and put it behind you. Don't create userboxes to attempt any sort of dispute resolution—they won't work and they will be deleted. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 20:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Based on what? Is it illegal to complain now? Misplaced Pages is not censored like that. I am priparily complaining about a lack of dispute resolution...

Why cant people focus on userboxes such as Template:User State of Kurdistan rather than some discrete userbox on my userspace...

--Cat out 21:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This user is an ex member of the Counter Vandalism Unit since a single user single handedly ejected him from it. (complaining about an event on irc)

This user also pities self for entrusting the wikiproject into such a person. (self criticism)

How does THAT violate NPA? --Cat out 23:08, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

See enthymeme. —Quarl 2006-09-07 06:01Z

I approve of this userbox as long as it is subst'ed to reduce server load. —Centrx→talk • 06:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Deleted. Please do not recreate. Either try to resolve the dispute — or keep this off-wiki criticism of a Misplaced Pages user, off-wiki. Thanks. El_C 10:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Criticism is not a personal attack, If it is a personal attack it shouldnt be on articles. :P --Cat out 15:13, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Appealing 3RR suspension

Hi,

I am appealing my recent 3RR block on the grounds that the following three questions are not answered by somebody--I don’t expect them to be answered because to the best of my knowledge the accusation that I violated 3RR is not true, and therefore there are no answers to these questions. But if somebody can answer these questions than I will not pursue this matter any further. Thank you for your consideration.

The sole definition of a “Revert” - as stated at WP:REVERT is “To revert is to undo all changes made after a certain time in the past. The result will be that the page becomes identical to how it used to be at some previous time”

The accusation made towards me is that I reverted the Vic Grimes page more than 3 times over the course of 24 hours. The following were the edits I made to the page on September 5:

http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73877744 (3:20) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73874225 (2:54) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73872499 (2:42) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73871536 (2:35) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73871187 (2:33) http://en.wikipedia.org/search/?title=Vic_Grimes&oldid=73870424 (2:27)

If my edits meet the criterion for constituting three or more reverts, then somebody is obligated to provide me with AT LEAST FOUR links to past versions of the Vic Grimes page (PRIOR to September 5) where the page is “identical to how it used to be at some previous time.” In this case, “some previous time” refers to - as I said just a few lines above - “past versions of the Vic Grimes page (PRIOR to September 5). I am not asking for four links that make the page look NEARLY identical to how it used to be; that is NOT the definition of a revert. I want somebody to provide me with AT LEAST FOUR links where the page is EXACTLY, 110% the SAME as it was at any of the following times on September 4:

3:20 2:54 2:42 2:35 2:33 2:27

If AT LEAST FOUR links cannot be produced, I will continue to pursue this matter because that will indicate to me that my account was wrongfully suspended for WP:3RR despite my not violating the WP:3RR policy.

Thank you for your consideration.

JB196

Hi. In short, edit warring is bad. That's 6 instances of drastically altering the existing page into your own version in the space of one hour. Edit warring is bad, and wikilawyering about edit warring is worse. Instead, wait out your block and then discuss your proposed changes on the article talk page (and consider learning why effectively removing the article is generally frowned upon). — Lomn | Talk 19:13, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Please read about this situation more thoughtfully and try to see it from my perspective. Please do not accuse me of "wikilawyering"; I do not know the first thing about law and wwould be about as comfortable acting in a courtroom as a lawyer as My Cousin Vinny. There is an Administrator's noticeboard for "incidents" that call to be brought up. I was suspended for something that didn't happen. Again, I ask politely as possible - What will be done about the fact that I was wrongfully blocked for a 3RR instance that did not exist?JB196 19:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

You reverted six times in an hour. That the edit was originally a self-revert stopped being relevant after someone else replaced it. You don't own your edits, and you can't revoke them. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

According to WP:REVERT, your statement that "You reverted six times in an hour" is blatantly false and has been proven false already.JB196 19:31, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Edit warring is bad. Don't do that. Discuss changes on the talk page instead. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:33, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ya. All that matters is the edit warring. Blocking you stopped it. Hence, the 3RR block worked. That's all that matters. --jpgordon 19:34, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#User:JB196 is relevant to this issue, which seems to be larger. - A Man In Bl♟ck (conspire | past ops) 19:41, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is all fine and dandy. I propose, however, that we change the word "identical" at WP:REVERT because obviously the version does not have to be "identical" for osmeone to be suspended; thus the current version of the article is outdated. What are your people's feelings on this?JB196 19:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I propose that you stop wikilawyering and go about your business before some evil rouge admin blocks you for plain old-fashioned disruption. Guy 20:46, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an admin, and have no view on this dispute, and agree that it should be addressed in the context of the prior discussion identified by AMIB. However, I think I understand the source of this user's (actual or feigned) confusion: I just noticed that the definition of "revert" or "reversion" contained in WP:REVERT is not the same as the one provided in WP:3RR. This is because WP:REVERT deals primarily with how to accomplish a complete reversion (e.g. to deal with vandalism) whereas WP:3RR deals with prevention of edit-warring. JB196, if you read WP:3RR I think you will see that edits can be a violation of the letter and the spirit of 3RR even if there aren't four identical versions over the course of 24 hours.

(after edit conflict) I see JB196 just picked up the same thing. I don't think the definition in WP:REVERT is "outdated" so much as that the two articles are discussing different, though related, concepts. Still, some clarification might be in order. Newyorkbrad 19:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Hope this helps. Newyorkbrad 19:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• Yeah, good point. We should change WP:REVERT so as not to confuse people into thinking it is in any way related to WP:3RR. However, the principle remains: don't edit war, and don't think you can wikilawyer your way out of the general injunction against doing so. --jpgordon 20:00, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Jpgordon - that works for me. Although do NOT accuse me again of "wikilawyering" when I did nothing of the sort. You do not correctly understand what "Wikilawyering" means if you believe that pointing out a valid discrepancy between two official policy pages (which has been proven to exist) is "wikilawyering." So anyway, what will be done about this discrepancy. One can obviously be suspended for 3RR without reverting to an "identical" version. The word "identical" needs to be replaced with something else.JB196 20:05, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

No, not really. The language in WP:3RR needs to not refer to WP:REVERT, that's all; they're two completely different critters. WP:REVERT is about fixing vandalism, and is actually the sole exception to WP:3RR. You were busily attempting to show that your misbehaviour (edit warring) was justified by your interpretation of Misplaced Pages policies. That's wikilawyering. --jpgordon 20:26, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Even this is giving JB196 more credit than he is due, since WP:REVERT also describes a partial revert (being a reversion of part of the content) and WP:3RR explicitly states that it includes reversion "in whole or in part", which plainly means partial reversion. Plus WP:3RR describes exactly what it means by a revert. He doesn't have a leg to stand on. Not even the little toe of the foot at the end of the leg. Guy 21:14, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

And I'd add that this is not the first occasion that JB seems willing to argue endlessly over technicalities while not quite getting the broader point. See Misplaced Pages:Articles for deletion/Bleeding Was Only Half the Job and Talk:Xtreme Pro Wrestling for more of what certainly felt to me like wikilawyering in the service of self-promotion. JB, I admire your energy and your attention to detail, but perhaps a little time considering the spirit of WP:5P rather than the particular wording of policy details would benefit all concerned. William Pietri 21:25, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Heh! not quite getting the broader point indeed. Once again your assumption of good faith is an example to us all. Guy 22:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

JPgordon, your definition of "wikilawyering" leaves little or no room for discussing whether a policy was enforced right. If I were "Wikilawyering" I would not have asked for clarification from the very beginning; I would have simply said this is why you are wrong. My edits did not constitute a revert as defined by WP:REVERT, but that is beyond the issue. I am willing to forgive whoever put the suspension in place, and I am also willing to accept that my edits may have constituted a suspension, but CERTAINLY not on the basis of violating WP:3RR which I did not do. It is not a violation of WP:AGF to say that A Man in Black did not read my full first post which addresses all this and instead just said that yes, I did violate WP:3RR. JPgordon, which specific part of the article do you think my post falls under? (violating WP:POINT can't be an answer because I did anything but tring to "disrupt Misplaced Pages by illustrating a point"; on the other hand I expressed a concern that has since been backed up my several other Wikipedians, so don't try that)JB196 23:19, 6 September 2006 (UTC) Misplaced Pages:Wikilawyering?

JB196, read WP:3RR. You violated it. You did not violate the letter of WP:REVERT, but that is no argument to say that you did not violate WP:3RR. Now, what exception, as listed on the 3RR page, do you claim covers your edits? None. You made the same or very similar edits six times in a row, removing lots of material and making the article noticealy poorer in content. That they were not complete reverts as described in WP:Revert is irrelevant as that is explicitly not the definition as used on WP:3RR. Fram 09:43, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

blanking via {{cite}}

It seems quite obvious to me that User:JB196 has changed tactics, seeking to flag his own material with {{cite}} so that it can be "legitimately" deleted. For example, note the diff at Texas Wrestling Academy where the earlier version is solely JB's contribution. I've left him a note that this form of blanking isn't really any more acceptable than outright deletion, as I can't see how this is in any way a good faith attempt to improve the articles at hand. — Lomn | Talk 23:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

This is a crosspost of my post on this topic from WP:AN at Misplaced Pages:Administrators' noticeboard#JB196, where I started the first topic - JB has changed his modus operandi and is now spamming tags through articles he himself has written. Examples can be found at (both articles done by JB in which he provided most of the material). JB tends to add numerous templates to articles when he doesn't get what he wants (see: 411mania, Extreme Warfare and Wrestling Spirit). Can an admin please intervene? This stuff has gone on for too long and he has shown no signs of stopping.

I am reposting it here as I was going to start a new topic on JB but see that ones already available. –– Lid 07:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how I forgot to include JB's vendetta against Death Valley Driver Video Review, including two afds 10 days apart and the characteristc spamming of templates. –– Lid 08:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

***Ria777 (talk · contribs) and her edit summaries

I initially encountered this editor after she edited a few articles on my watch list. She seems to be heavily interested in recatagorizing articles. Initially she was doing so without any edit summaries. After a couple requests for her to use edit summaries, she used 1 edit summary in a hundred edits and I again tried to explain why this was necessary. She's now using edit summaries all the time, but they're nonsense. I've already made repeated attempts to intervene here and I would appreciate if someone else would attempt to the get the point across here. Her last 10 edits summaries:

• blank
• l
• a
• d
• d
• ,,
• a
• d
• putting in more precise cat. in regards to neurology
• m

only one actually says what she did, and you can see the trend continuing deep into her contrib history. Of her last 50 edits summaries, I only see 11 which explain what she did in them, the rest being gibberish or blank. I don't expect 100% edit summaries, but if you're on a massive overhaul of catagories, it might be a good idea to leave some explanations and let people know what you're doing.--Crossmr 20:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Jon Awbrey project spam

1. WP:E!
2. WP:EEE
3. WP:MOPA
4. WP:MOTA

and "Misplaced Pages:WikiProject Joy Of Learning, Inquiry, Exploration" which I have speedied as Nonsense, disruption. User has started at least five projects in the last week Please review this action. and post dissenting views and rationale here - thanks. KillerChihuahua 20:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

In my opinion all of these projects are inappropriate WP:POV-pushing by Jon. He has a clear agenda - see his extensive postings at Misplaced Pages talk:No original research for which he has been blocked for trolling in the past. I'd suggest taking them all the MfD. Gwernol 20:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I thought he was supposed to be going. Funny how often people keep editing even after spending weeks trolling (in this case the mailing list) with absurd self-justifying homilies about how they are leaving a project which is surely doomed because it really is everybody else who is wrong. I feel a touch of WP:ROUGE coming on. Guy 21:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I was wondering about his long drawn out essay on why he was leaving WP not being fulfilled myself, but a quick check of the Internet Field Guide to Troll Behavior soon clarified things for me. Needless to say, I support your actions wholeheartedly. KillerChihuahua 21:23, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to say that I believe Jon is edging from the harmless troll zone into the disruptive pain in the arse zone these days; perhaps the time is approaching for the community to forcibly take him at his word, as it were. Well, maybe that's a bit harsh, but we could perhaps community-ban him from project space for a while. Guy 22:11, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

IMNSHO whatever contributions he may have made are far outweighed by his continual disruption and POV pushing. His editing style everywhere I have seen it is to obfuscate to the point of nonsense; I will support any ban decided by the community up to and including total ban from the project. Alas, I fear that will take the long drawn out route to accomplish, and I have not the time to be of much help if that is the case. KillerChihuahua 23:35, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Do you have a URL for the Internet Field Guide to Troll Behavior? I need to refresh my memory. (And he's Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering about Misplaced Pages:WikiLawyering. )— Arthur Rubin | (talk) 23:44, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

My apologies: It is here. KillerChihuahua 00:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I found it, "The Sophist Troll" &#0149;Jim62sch&#0149; 10:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guy on this: he's moving to the point where the sheer volume of his POV-pushing and blather threatens to overwhelm several important policy debates including those at WP:NOR and WP:VAIN. I would absolutely support further action against him. Gwernol 23:49, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Agree. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:23, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I believe Jon Awbrey may have exhausted the community's patience. I'm not aware of any useful edits he makes, and efforts to discuss the frequency of his posts to policy talk pages (226 posts to NOR talk in just a few weeks) are rebuffed. It's difficult to know what the point of most of his posts are, and he reverts when people try to refactor or move issues to subpages. He engaged in the same behavior on wikiEN-l. It has reached the point with NOR talk that it's impossible to have a sensible discussion because of him. SlimVirgin 00:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Guy as well; since he's said he's leaving we should just help him fulfill his desire in this regard. Jayjg 00:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Jon's had plenty of warnings and opportunities to not disrupt the project and contribute quietly. And he's recently just off a fairly long block for similar activities. There's only so much the community should have to put with, so something more substantial seems to be necessary. FeloniousMonk 02:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Also agree. JoshuaZ 02:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block implemented. Gwernol 02:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Jon Awbrey's edits in article space are very beneficial to wikipedia and should be allowed to continue so long they continue to be beneficial. His edits outside article space have indeed exhausted the community's patience. One concern here is that article edits by him as an anon or a new name might be reverted to no good end. I'm sure you guys can work out the details. Thanks. WAS 4.250 05:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually I agree here: although he is disputatious and often includes WP:OR, he also does make sound and valid contributions. I don't have a problme with blocking him while we think about what to do, but I do think that we should do one of the following:

• As a community, ban him from Project space (other than to enter a comment of reasonable length in any debate related to an article on which he is active or has expert knowledge)
• Take the case to ArbCom and ask them to come up with a solution

I am reluctant to trouble ArbCom if there is an unambiguous and obvious consensus to do what we believe ArbCom would do anyway. We could start an RFC, but the idea of an RFC with Jon fills me with horror - we'd need to add more storage to the servers to acommodate all the argumentation and justificaitons why (as always) he is the only one marching in step.

So my reluctance aside, ArbCom may be the best course. Do nothing is not really an option. Guy 11:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Guy, can you give some examples of Jon's good editing in article space? My own preference is the indefinite block, but if we're to limit him only from the project space, it would have to be absolute with no exceptions. If you give him an inch, he'll take a mile and we'll be back where we started. SlimVirgin 11:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to see that as well, my experience with him has been on Truth and Truth theory where his editing has been anything but "sound and valid contributions." I understand he contributes to mathmatical articles, are his contributions there improvements? I'm not qualified to judge. KillerChihuahua 11:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Steve Irwin and constant buisness.

Can we please stop deleting the article and recreating it to remove edit-summary vandalism and such, leaving it to someone with the oversight bit? This is playing havok with any attempt at editing the article; I had to spend 3 minutes to commit a save, through 4 edit conflicts and 2 deletions, just to have the history show me that I recreated the page with content "FUCK YOU JIMBO WALES", in a 40kb or so spam. Can we just fully protect the article, or leave aforementioned revisions until a overseer can be called to clean it? --Avillia 21:37, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Next time use WP:RFPP. It is usually the fastest way to get a page protected and is the correct venue for such requests. KillerChihuahua 21:38, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

It's not as much a call for protection as much as a call that we don't rapidly recreate and delete a amazingly high-traffic article over having FUCK YOU JIMBO WALES in the revision history. --Avillia 21:43, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

He's right, this isn't about the protection, I was just trying to fix it, but there are too many people editing the artilce to get something like that done, so its left for now. Avilla, I discussed this on the talk page of the article, and its not really appropriate to list it here. Next time just use the talk page, obviously I was watching it. pschemp | talk 22:22, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Since when do we delete random offensive stuff anyways? --Conti|✉ 22:27, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Conti, I don't think I follow your question. Are you suggesting that we should leave the random offensive stuff? Newyorkbrad 23:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

He's talking about removing it from history, not just rolling back the vandalizing edits. Friday (talk) 23:16, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Ah. That makes total sense, then. Thanks. Newyorkbrad 23:18, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I should've been more clearer, maybe. Yeah, I was talking about deleting things from the history because they are offensive/vandalism. --Conti|✉ 00:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Eventually yes if its in the edit summaries when the overeager vandalfighters and vandals and well meaning but misguided editors get bored with it. Right now there are too many edits going on and people freak out when its deleted, even for a second and then do things like put speedy delete tags on it when its recreated because they don't understand what's going on. We'll just wait. pschemp | talk 02:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I did check the last few entries on the talk page before I posted it, I guess it flew right by me. Sorry. --Avillia 02:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Inactive account

Just happened to stumble across User:Submarine, created 16 November 2005, with no edits. Is this a sock awaiting activation (& should it be indef blocked?), or is there another explanation? -- llywrch 21:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Something like 80% of all Misplaced Pages accounts are inactive - they have never edited and probably never will. It's not a problem unless we have reason to specifically worry about it. Shimgray | talk | 21:57, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Template vandalism

I've just finished a huge swathe of replies on the OTRS vandalism-complaints address - about thirty of these, perhaps, due to people who experienced vandalism by modifying templates to display everyone's favourite penis photograph as a 600px inline image. Normally, I'm vaguely surprised if we get more than half-a-dozen complaints about the FA du jour or more than a couple about any other page; this does seem a lot. Not really sure what we can do about this other than closely watching high-use templates or protecting them (personally I see no downside to the latter - things like {{cquote}}, {{taxobox}} or {{otheruses}} really shouldn't be edited without good reason anyway), but thought I'd better toss the problem out here.

I've seen this before - it isn't new - but it does seem to have ramped up a lot this last couple of days. Shimgray | talk | 21:54, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I've fully protected them all. There is pretty much no reason why anyone, admins included, should need to edit those often enough for it to matter. Ral315 (talk) 23:50, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Added to the list is {{Busy}}. Fully protected now. --Ragib 23:56, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

child abuse, ritual bause, mcmartin preschool

There are so many misleading entries concerning my case (McMartin Preschool, I am the parent of one of the children). I can't possibly edit them all and I am apparently inept at making major edits. If Misplaced Pages is to be a credible source of reference for the Internet, these issues need to be reconciled. I can prove my information with documentation and need to add comments or corections to some seriously inaccurate claims. I have tried to do this myself but have been unsuccessful.

Can anyone help, please? Jacque rest of email address removed for the protection of innocents

I strongly suggest that you start by registering an account (free and easy to do), then collect links to the relevant articles using ] format, and then ask at Help for the specific assistance you need. If you can cite verifiable references from reliable (preferably secondary) sources then there are sure to e editors who will help you with the technicalities of getting the information added in the right tone. Guy 22:15, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes. I think the right approach would be for him to comment us on the changes, and one experienced user helps him to understand the wiki and teach him how to make the changes. He has a very valid concern, assuming GF. -- Drini 23:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

ArjunSingh

User:ArjunSingh was indef blocked for sockpuppets, 3rr, POV editing, etc. on Khalistan. His IP address left a message on my talk page calling me an asshole. I left a warning, but I thought I'd bring it up here. Normally I wouldn't consider one instance of personal attacks, especially against myself, to be worthy of a block, but it IS an IP of an indef blocked user. In that case, it may be worth the block (it does not appear to be a shared IP, and all warnings on the talk page relate to Khalistan which was ArjunSingh's article.)⇒ SWATJester Aim _Fire! 22:51, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

blocked for a week. It doesn't seem to be dymanic either. pschemp | talk 02:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ezebuiro Obinna

Would someone please look in on the article Ezebuiro Obinna? An anon (imaginably more than one, but the IPs are in the same range) has been removing {{wikify}}, {{unreferenced}}, and {{npov}} tags, and removing my comments on these issues from the talk page, as well as writing absurd comments on the talk page like "What a credible neutral point of view!" Other editor in there is User:Igbigbo. I'll admit to having a suspicion that Igbigbo and the anon are one and the same; it might be interesting to run a user check on Igbigbo at the point where one of his edits is only 5 minutes after the anon's after several hours with no other edits credited to him.

Not a particular important article, but I suspect that this is someone not playing by the rules, and trying to cover his tracks. And I bet the images are copvios, to boot. -- Jmabel | Talk 23:24, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

User making Legal Threats

Hello, the AMA got a request in about a user making legal threats. I'm refering it to AN/I since it requires SYSOP attention more than it needs AMA attention. The User making the threats is T.C. Craig and the talk page he has made the threat on is United States Postal Service (Look at the last set of comments). Thank you Æon _EA! 23:29, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I have blocked him until he withdraws the threats. JoshuaZ 01:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Thank you I will let the case requester know and close the AMA side of it thanks for your help. Æon _EA! 01:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Son of a Peach indefinitely blocked

Just a notice that Son of Peach has been indefinitely blocked for this edit to Jimbo's page and this and your previous block history, and usage of scatological and random text in edit summaries, subsequent to coming off a block, for disruption, nonsensical activity and a troll block. For the record he had submitted Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Son of a Peach II, which lasted about half an hour before Jaranda closed it. His posts to Jimbo and my block subsequent to that occurred after the closing. See also Misplaced Pages:Requests for adminship/Son of a Peach, half a month ago. Thanks, Blnguyen | BLabberiNg 23:55, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Oh thank heavens. --InShaneee 23:59, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Shame, he had the potential to actually be a humorous yet productive editor. If only he had learned to be how to be funny and not just stupid. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 00:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

He also used sockpuppets, abusively. Kelly Martin (talk) 15:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indefinite block please review.

I have indefinitely blocked User:Arvatov. He just came out of a 1 month block for blatant POV pushing and made this edit. The user has no productive edits as far as I can tell. Please review my block. JoshuaZ 00:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Works for me. No question that there is no reasonable chance this user will become a constructive editor. Good work, Gwernol 00:18, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Repeated Aunt Jemima Vandalism

See for this user. Nothing but vandalism. Please advise. KevinPuj 00:14, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Please report vandals on WP:AIV, after following guidelines on WP:VAND - you must warn the vandal. thanks much! KillerChihuahua 00:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:GoOdCoNtEnT - trolling?

GoOdCoNtEnT (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · nuke contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) left a message on my talk page concerning the article Mikhail_Lebedev asking me to delete it or undo some edits. When I checked the user's contributions, it seems that he has been leaving same message on various adminstrator's pages. However, he'd also been weighing in on the article's AFD in support of keeping the article. DragonflySixtyseven just blocked him for 1 hour. However, a longer block may need to be implemented. Comments? — ERcheck (talk) 00:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

See what he does after an hour, I guess. I also warned him, so if he starts up again, something more lesson-giving should be used. -Splash - tk 00:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Quick Question,

Latly I've been seeing random pages I've never even edited appearing and disapearing (within seconds) on my watchlist. I've also noticed certain pages I have edited (I have my preferences set to watchlist any page I edit) disapearing and not returning. Does anyone know why this is happeneing?--KojiDude 01:50, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Dunno, probably just a MediaWiki glitch. If it keeps up, you can report it to Bugzilla. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 01:56, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Alright, thanks. Could you provide a link to Bugzilla, though?--KojiDude 01:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

It's http://bugzilla.wikimedia.org. --Mr. Lefty _{Talk to me!} 02:01, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Might be article page moves. KillerChihuahua 02:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The page moves usually only mess it up for a minute or two. But I'm talking about completley random pages I've never gone to or edited, like User talk:ReyBrujo. It just showed up on my watchlist, and I don't have a single edit anywhere in the history. By the way, thanks for the link.--KojiDude 03:59, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain page move

There was a survey being taken at Talk:Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain as to whether the article at Catholicism in Great Britain should be moved to Roman Catholic Church in Great Britain. As it appeared that there would be no consensus for the move, JzG aborted the vote and moved the article to agree with his own previously stated POV. -SynKobiety 02:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

From the talk page the matter appears more complicated than that; please don't bring half-told content disputes here. Mackensen (talk) 02:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I did not intend to be misleading. I was just trying to follow the instruction: Please make your comments concise. Administrators are less likely to read long diatribes. Are administrators exempt from WP:AGF? I brought this issue here because of what appears to me to be an administrators abuse of privilege. Would another unbiased administrator please look into this? -SynKobiety 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Indeed, the page history is very suggestive. Vaquero100 (talk · contribs) appears to be move-warring. Furthermore, I'm surprised this is an issue at all. Catholic is ambiguous. Roman Catholic is not. Why is this here again? Mackensen (talk) 03:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I didn't bring this here to inquire about an administrator's POV about the content: A survey was being conducted to address that. An administrator chose to abort the vote in progress in order to push his POV (one with which Mackensen apparently agrees). Are administrators given the charter to override users when they disagree with the users? -SynKobiety 03:27, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

When it comes to matters of common sense and clear factual accuracy, I should imagine they are - that's why the community made them admins. Some catholic churches are seperate from the Roman Catholic Church. If the article is about the Roman Catholic Church and not inclusive of those Catholic churches that do not recognise Rome (and Rome doesn't recognise them!), then there it should remain. Crimsone 04:33, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What you believe to be common sense and clear factual accuracy may be seen by others as biased POV, whether or not you are an administrator. That is why a vote was being taken. Is an administrator entitled to ignore a vote in progress and impose his own POV? -SynKobiety 04:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The article was moved unilaterally in a copy-and-paste move. I fixed it. One of the editors involved in the move war states on his User page his agenda the "Defense of the Catholic Church in the use of her name". Do not bring your battles to Misplaced Pages. All other articles on the national RC churches are at Roman (only Canada and Great Britain are out of step with the convention, I started a discussion on moving Great Britain to be consistent with the rest, there is already a discussion at Canada). Voting is evil. The last move created double and triple redirects, most of whicih I think I have also fixed. In other words, I did what an admin is supposed to do: fixed up the mess caused by editors on a mission. Guy 07:36, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the concept that "naming conventions of pages" is not subject to a vote. Once a norm has been established that should hold sway. Just because "k.d.lang" likes to downcase her name doesn't mean we should. Just because someone decides that the "Catholic church based in Rome" is the only legitimate one, doesn't mean we do. The standard is "Roman Catholic Church of xxx" and that's what should hold. Don't be a scone. Wjhonson 07:54, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Actually when it comes to personal names we should depict them the way they want. In fact v/v kd lang, it says right at the top of her page that the first initial of her name is cap'd due to 'technical restrictions' in the Wiki software. The 'l' is lowercase. Anchoress 10:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I'd suggest a 'move lock' would be appropriate here to stop the POV pushing, and move waring. But since I've already expressed opinions on this issue, I won't be the one to do it. 'Catholic' is a ambiguous/contested title - and it is not NPOV for us to describe one denomination as the Catholic Church. Keep it at Roman Catholic, and note that the denomination in question usually self-designates by the contested title. --Doc 10:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ericsaindon2 evading block

Ericsaindon2 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log) is currently evading his block through an anonymous IP: 69.227.167.16 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · page moves · block user · block log). See contribution history and specifically where he admits that it's easier editing with the block now in place. -- Gogo Dodo 04:11, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Unless I'm terribly mistaken, evading blocks in such a way is covered by WP:BAN. From the diff provided, this is clearly a case of evading a plock resulting from an ArbCom ruling, as the user actually states as much. Crimsone 04:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw it and dealt with it appropriately. Under WP:BAN#Evasion and enforcement, all edits by a banned user should be reverted/speedy deleted, and the "ban timer" should be reset. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:24, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

When he says "it's easier editing with the block now in place", he is probably referring to the fact that the ISP that he is using uses a dynamic IP address. If he abuses any further, we may need to contact his ISP directly to report the abuse. Zzyzx11 (Talk) 04:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Ouch! Last time I saw that page (not long ago coincidentally) it had one heck of a backlog. In the meantime, I'm sure that this user is going to be (metaphorically at least) laughing quite heartily over the situation. Oh well.Crimsone 04:48, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Plautus Satire

I have permabanned Plautus Satire and protected his talk page. Plautus has twice sat out year bans, come back, and clearly flagged that he intends to be his usual self. Truth be told, there were grounds for a community ban last time, but the arbcom inexplicably laid down a year ban overwriting a clear consensus for a community ban. There's no reason to deal with this a third time. Phil Sandifer 04:34, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Gosh, has it been a year again already? Time flies. I'm gonna miss our annual visits. --Golbez 04:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism(?) on a page.

Article concerned: "List of moments of inertia"

Someone using IP [216.148.248.31 wrongly "corrected" the equation for thick cylinder (second row in the table) on September 5th. I restored the original formula the same day. Yesterday 9-6th the same IP 216.148.248.31 started again.

If this was a registered user, I could explain why the original formula is correct (I am a former physics teacher).

I think WP should restore to the 19:03, 22 August 2006 SwiftBot version, and block the page for a few days.

I do not understand why this page is stigmatized with the "quality standards" label. I think that this page is OK and does not need any clean up.

Regards. LPFR 07:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Hello. Please explain to the unregistered user the formula and apply the corrections to the entry accordingly. I'm uncertain why un/registraion has any bearing on the matter at hand. Thanks in advance for your efforts. Regards, El_C 11:07, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

the arts portal

Hi admins,

the arts portal (Portal:Arts) has the appearance of vandalism on its top - I looked a little in its history and it seemed non trivial for me to fix. PER9000 08:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I have to be honest, I can't see the vandalism. There was some a little while back, but it was also reverted shortly after. Could you perhaps be a little bit more specific about what you're seeing there? Crimsone 08:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I saw the non-sense like "LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLFuck" in the now blank box titled "the arts portal" in the middle of the top. Now it is gone. When I looked in the history I saw "...is the biggest butt fart in the world" so I thought: this requires a little more than just use a little older version (something I first hoped). Anyway - the possible vandalism in now gone.... PER9000 09:02, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Grigori Perelman

User:Bellbird keeps removing properly referenced material from this article. Is this violating WP:POINT?--Brownlee 09:39, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

No. It's a dispute, which is being properly conducted on the talk page of the article, about whether someone with Jewish ancestry ought to be described as a Jew on Misplaced Pages if they don't think of themselves as Jewish. --ajn (talk) 09:55, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This is not a matter for ANI at this time. JoshuaZ 14:10, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_United_States_of_America/strawpolls

I need an admin to step in here please. I have a user constantly attempting to bully me from participating in an article and basically telling me they do not need to provide a source, and can violate WP:OR. Part of this is a content issue, but the user has now gone on to attempt to attack me and my credibility to push their point, including bringing up past incidents I have had with people RfC/ArbCom/Cabal cases in an attempt to discredit me. If you view the page you will see that its for a straw poll and two users are constantly barraging me with attacks. I have asked them simply to provide a source stating the US has commited a terrorist attack in the context of the SOA. Instead the post a source stating that SOA graduates commit terrorist attacks, I explain to them that if the source is not accusing the US directly, its WP:OR to state that the US has commited those acts by then taking another source that says the US funded them, but does not accuse the US of terrorism.

It has gone to the point where one user Travb has gone on to tell otehr not to respond to me when I attempting to address the issue They have attempted to gather people to get me banned or blocked Only after I pointed out the results of the past RfC's did Travb then state they shouldnt keep threatening me. The user has even gone as far as to create a whole section on the straw poll page for the article specifically bringing up my past encounters. I am asking that either the long attack on me personally be removed from the straw poll page, or Travb be forced to make a dispute resolution attempt in the form of an RfC or ArbCom case as he is making a case just in the public to discredit me, without the supervision that would normally accompany an RfC or Arbcom case. The section again is noted here: Allegations_of_state_terrorism_by_United_States_of_America/strawpolls#Oppose_part_2 --zero faults 12:17, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User Travb has gone on to state things like:

• There will be no consensus on this page, because User:Zer0faults moto is "Don't relent. Don't back off." This is a quote from an ideological opposite, with the same tactics.
• The result of the AfD was no consensus. Once you face this fact, we can start to build this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Zer0faults (talk • contribs)

My two cents: This has been a prolonged month long battle after the AfD. Everyone has strong opinions, but myself and User:Zer0faults have been at the center of the debate. Twice before there has been other users, the person who initiated the AfD, and rootolgy (I believe) who posted comments here asking for assistance.

I am sorry that User:Zer0faults involved an admin. He has been threatening me for weeks that he will call a ANI etc.

"I have a user constantly attempting to bully me from participating in an article" I actively encourage your participation in the article User:Zer0faults. Where do you get the idea that I do not want you to participate in building consensus and helping build a great wikipedia article?

"basically telling me they do not need to provide a source"---"Basically" is the key word. For one long month we have provided ample sources for all of the comments on the talk page. There has been a prolonged battle about wikipedia policy, which User:Zer0faults and other wikiusers have initiated. No sources are accpetable to User:Zer0faults, repeatedly we have provided the sources, and User:Zer0faults refuses them. It has gotten to a point were myself and another user have given up. User:Zer0faults makes several claims on the talk page, but refuses to source his sources. User:Zer0faults has never added a single source to the entire article, he has never provided one source for his claims on the talk page, and yet he expects other wikiusers to continue to provide sources, User:Seabhcan and myself have provided over ten sources on the talk page, none met User:Zer0faults unrealistic standards. In addition, the article has 60 referenced sources. User:Zer0faults has repeatedly said when the article would be unprotected, he would delete referenced sections. This is what initiated the page to be protected in the first place. I ask for page protection to avoid an edit war. I also requested a mediator, who is now mediating the case, started a RfC, and I started a crude straw poll, then actively supported the new official straw poll which User:Zer0faults suggested.

In (more comments in a second---please let me finish.)Travb (talk) 12:38, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I just want to point out as what Travb is discussing above is a content issue, the article has many many sources that state an event took place. However in regards to many of the events not a single source makes an allegation of state terrorism by the US, hence the opposition. I guess the root of this problem is that Travb wants to be able to connect the dots and I have been telling him he cannot, this angers him and results in the whoel section I linked above which is bringing up past RfC's?Arbcom/Cabal cases etc in an attempt to discredit me, painting me as someone who cannot be worked with, as his quote calls me. I have also been labeled a deletionist for removing unsourced information. I want to keep this AN/I issue which is the attempted bullying and bringing up past incidents to give other editors a negative view of me and my opinions seperate from the content issue. So I am simpyl asking an admin to look at the sections posted above and make a decision if its appopriate to drudge up a users past conflicts in an attempt to discredit them. --zero faults 12:57, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

We have addressed the WP:OR argument at length, in fact, we have argued every single one of User:Zer0faults policy arguments at length. In one month the wikipage has created two huge archives, a huge talk page, and a large straw poll.

"I have also been labeled a deletionist for removing unsourced information" I apologized for this statment, I still await your apology for saying that I was "lying", which you made just today, and that I wasn't assuming good faith, which you stated clear back during the AfD, in fact--Myself and others have repeatedly apologized, and yet you repeatedly refuse to apologize for anything you have said. (more comments in a second---please let me finish.)

"not a single source makes an allegation of state terrorism by the US" This is an an untrue claim. Unfortunatly this is the kind of claim which User:Zer0faults continues to recycle.

Just today after apologizing several times for allegedly misquoting User:Zer0faults, I wrote:

"I will gladly remove any content you find offensive User:Zer0faults all I ask in return is a simple apology for saying that I was lying. Heck, I will remove any content even without an apology. Please let me know what you find so offensive."

User:Zer0faults ignored this offer of comprimise, as he has ignored all offers to comprimise.

User:Zer0faults has threatened me repeatedly, on his talk page, on the article talk page, on the strawpoll. He has demanded that comments be moved to his talk page. I obliged, grudgingly, and then he threatens me with the admin, archives the comments, and wrote on his page: "Do not restart discussions here, all discussions moved to archive are considered closed and will be ignored." When User:Seabhcan agreed with me, and then suggested a ANI (which I later discouraged: "I would ask User:Seabhcan not to threaten Zer0faults with ANI. Lets all try to build a consensus and stop threatening each other." ) User:Zer0faults responded to User:Seabhcan saying: "Dont talk about it do it. I would love to see the results and your evidence you present." User:Zer0faults has threated a ANI for weeks. I continue to ask him to stop threatening me, that it does not help to build consensus. He ignores these requests. I brought up his past ANI past history only after User:Zer0faults refused to stop threatening me. User:Zer0faults is very effective at using wikipedia policy against other wikiusers, instead of attempting to build a consensus, he builds contention and ANI's and mediations, as he is doing right now. Travb (talk) 13:04, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

When you quote me please use the full quote However in regards to many of the events not a single source makes an allegation of state terrorism by the US, hence the opposition. This has been another issue but that is more of a content thing as well. User often shortens quotes and takes them out of context, for instance a quote in the talk page of the article itself he used the following quote:

To the extent (unclear) to which the manual's advice was applied, people have died and a whole style of terror and counter-civilian violence and deception has been condoned.The democratic elements of the Nicaraguan insurgency will now be widely represented -- misrepresented, we believe -- as people who need and use terror to make their way

The bold part highlites what they attempted to use as proof of US terrorism in their source they provided. They however left off end portion that states the subject is in fact "the Democractic elements of the Nicaraguan insurgency". Which is quite misleading. You can further see that the source is stating its unclear of the manuals influence and the article itself never makes an accusations of terrorism by the US. However Travb argues that since the Nicaraguan vs. US court case says the US funded them, that the two sources together prove the US funded terrorists, just to point out the court case says specifically that the US did not order these people, that they were not acting on behalf of the US. So as you see selective quoting has also become an issue, apparently now again being used to discredit me. --zero faults 13:26, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

I strongly agree with Travb's assessment. I only recently came into contact with Zer0faults and found him to be rude, disruptive. His overall aim seems to be to impede the work of other editors. Self-Described Seabhcán 13:25, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This user is the second user, the one noted above calling for me to be blocked, he was also noted as being an admin participating in the debate and also editing the article during its locked state against concensus. --zero faults 13:30, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

If your notice does not need the attention of people with administrator access, do not post it here. Please be aware that these pages aren't the place to bring disputes over content, or reports of abusive behaviour — we aren't referees, and have limited authority to deal with abusive editors. We have a dispute resolution procedure which we recommend you follow. - I paraphrased the top of this page, feydey 13:28, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

As I stated, part of it is a content dispute, however part of it contains a large block of text posted on the straw poll page to discredit me, bringing up my past RfC's etc. That is what I am asking an admin to address, I cannot remove the content myself withuot breaking policy, so I am asking an admin to look into. Please follow the relevant links adn ignore the content issue that Travb is attempting to turn this into. --zero faults 13:32, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

What is happening on this page is not a request for admin assistance, it is an extended fight between you and Travb. Take it to dispute resolution, please. --ⁿɡ͡b Nick Boalch\ 13:35, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

So its ok to mudsling on talk pages when having differences with an editor. So if we ever haev a difference of opinion I can note all your past RfC's Arbcom cases and other articles you edited to discredit your opinion? Sorry but that is beyond a dispute its a personal attack, the rule states address the content not the editor am I mistaken? --zero faults 13:37, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

User:Zer0faults, if this dispute doesn't involve content, why are you quoting content to make your point?

I will abide by User:Feydey's and User:Ngb's assessment, and keep the content dispute on the page, I apologize for draging editors into this argument, I wanted to avoid all of this, but User:Zer0faults continued to threaten me today that he was going to involve an admin. Again, as I wrote on the disputed strawpoll page, before User:Zer0faults started this ANI:

"I will gladly remove any content you find offensive User:Zer0faults all I ask in return is a simple apology for saying that I was lying. Heck, I will remove any content even without an apology. Please let me know what you find so offensive."

In fact, I will take the extraodinary step, and say: User:Zer0faults 'please delete all of the comments you find offensive on the talk page and the strawpoll page.

User:Zer0faults: I apologize for offending you.

As I wrote on the same talk page:

"I would ask User:Seabhcan not to threaten Zer0faults with ANI. Lets all try to build a consensus and stop threatening each other."

You can have the last word on this User:Zer0faults, as you always insist on having.

I am going to bed. I trust no negative action will be taken against me when I am away from the computer and unable to defend myself against User:Zer0faults statments.

As the old saying goes: it takes two too tango (or tangle in this case).

Sorry User:Feydey, User:Ngb for bothering you guys and the other admins, Best wishes.Travb (talk) 13:44, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

TamilLand (talk · contribs)

TamilLand has been repeatedly adding the word terrorist to LTTE in an unencyclopedic manner as defined by WP:WTA. He has received warnings for these disruptive edits up to a final warning. Since then, he has continued to disrupt the article. Could someone review the situation and possibly block this user? Addhoc 13:21, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Zandweb (talk · contribs)

I'm considerably worried regards what is happening with the template:Iranian States. Till yesterday the template as quite logical, included only Afghanistan, Iran and Tadjikistan; but yesterday a new editor, User:Zandweb, has started a massive overhaul of the template, reverting as "vandalism" all opposition, and sending messages to users in which he accuses them of pov-pushing. As can be understood, his attempts to add the template to articles like those of Israel and Hungary is creating much opposition, and furious edit-warring are investing all these changes. Zandweb is also blanking some articles, like Turko-Iranian and when I restored it (my only intervention in the Zandweb-connected disputes), he blanked it again. I'm not a very good admin in dealing with new editors, so I decided to inform the board, hoping one or more of you could try to solve the problems emerging.--Aldux 13:29, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

voting

Is it only me seeing a problem with this kind of voting? I might be misstaken, but i thought admins are supposed to be more in-line with the rules. Is it ok for an adming to know that a subject has been covered by CNN, Washington Post, Scoop and London Independent and still vote "Delete conspiracy theory nonsense POV cruftist..simply not notable."?

This is the same admin that was involved in the Template:Alex Jones issue earlier here on ANI.--Striver 13:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

• What administrative action are you requesting here? --jpgordon 14:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The "rules" do permit an administrator to express his personal opinion on an AfD , and there is no requirement (that I'm aware of) that MONGO should always agree with Striver or refrain from commenting when he does not. --Tony Sidaway 14:09, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Furthermore, whoever closes the deletion can simply ignore votes which they find illogical or clearly biased. I wouldn't worry about it. JoshuaZ 14:12, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

ok, understood. We can regard this issue as settled. Thanks for the time. --Striver 14:15, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Striver...you are the worst POV pusher on Misplaced Pages. I think it's time you went away. Your Rfa is clear demostration of just how much the community distains your POV pushing.--MONGO 15:20, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Your counter POV pushing is just as distasteful, along with Tom, Tbeatty, and the rest of the Happy Facist George Bush Buddy Crowd. rootology (T) 15:52, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Concerned about User:Fact check

I'm concerned that the name Fact check (talk · contribs) may be confusing to some users, who may assume that the account has some official standing with Misplaced Pages. Most of this user's contributions have been removing information and the "fact" template from articles. His/her user page only says "See WP:V". SuperMachine 14:47, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

Looks like some sort of special-purpose account. Have you talked to the user to find out who they really are? I agree the name's problematic, but you could/should try talking to them first to see if they understand why this may be a problem. They may just have wanted to split off their fact checking from their normal, high-quality account. *shrug* -- nae'blis 15:51, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

How does one deal with false accusations and WP:OWN on a sensitive topic?

I'm a fairly experienced editor, ~4000 edits now, on a number of topics. I've run into a major issue though on one sensitive article dealing with racism against Jews: New anti-Semitism. The problem is that I can't edit the article in the least. When I do, I am reverted instantly and then a series of accusations of various sorts are made against me. The problem is I am not doing what these accusations say but the accusations are effective in making sure I can't edit the article.

Here is the before and after of the change I made yesterday. I change the bold phrase:

"In September 2006, the British parliament released a report after a 10-month inquiry by prominent MPs from all three major political parties into anti-Semitism in Britain, chaired by the former Europe Minister Denis MacShane. The report concludes that verbal abuse, harassment, and violence against Jews and their institutions in the UK has reached 'worrying levels,' and accuses left-wing activists and Muslim extremists of using criticism of Israel as a 'pretext' for spreading anti-Semitism. McShane described what he called a 'witch's brew' of anti-Semitism involving the far left and 'ultra-Islamist' extremists."

"In September 2006, the British parliament released a report after a 10-month inquiry by prominent MPs from all three major political parties into anti-Semitism in Britain, chaired by the former Europe Minister Denis MacShane. The report concludes that verbal abuse, harassment, and violence against Jews and their institutions in the UK has reached "worrying levels." The report, while it emphasized the right to criticize or protest against Israeli government actions, states that criticism of Israel sometimes 'provided a pretext' for spreading anti-Semitism. McShane described what he called a "witch's brew" of anti-Semitism involving the far left and 'ultra-Islamist' extremists."

I made that change based on this sentence from the original source:

"Though emphasising the right of people to criticise or protest against Israeli government actions, it says 'rage' over Israeli policies has sometimes 'provided a pretext' for anti-semitism."

Because of my change above, SlimVirgin and Jayjg accused me of trying to remove the various key points , of whitewashing and POV , and of distorting thing with my own opinion . The only way accusation that some could have made sense was if one stopped reading through the paragraph half way. The problem is that none of these accusations by SlimVirgin or Jayjg are true, but it doesn't seem to matter. It's really quite strange, over the top and frustrating. Is my change really such a distortion of the original that I deserve such accusations and to be marginalized so effectively?

There is the related issue of whether SlimVirgin is exerting ownership (see WP:OWN) over this article via these types of over the top threats. Here are the current edit counts for this article for the top six editors :

• SlimVirgin - 642 edits
• Jayjg - 158 edits
• CJCurrie - 147 edits
• Homeontherange - 67 edits
• Viriditas - 66 edits
• Jmabel - 66 edits

I have 10 edits (most of which were reverted by either SV or Jayjg) of the content of the article, although more to the discussion page.

This is the same article that SlimVirgin warned me not to edit and threatened that "there would be consequences" if I did. I reported that incident to this page back in July here Misplaced Pages:Administrators'_noticeboard/IncidentArchive124#SlimVirgin_requested_me_to_not_edit_article. From my perspective, I can't help but connect this incident of over the top reaction to a minor and fairly accurate change to that past warning not to edit the article.

Suggestions on how best to deal with this is appreciated. --Ben Houston 15:03, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

This isn't the first time I have been reverted on this article by SV and Jayjg -- I must admit that it is frustrating as heck to be marginalized in such a way. --Ben Houston 15:08, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

The solution would seem to be to quote the relevant paragraph in full from the MacShane report, in a quote box, and not editorialise it at all. Did you try suggesting that on Talk? Guy 15:19, 7 September 2006 (UTC)

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